Chris Fleming

Summary

Wild Card with Rachel Martin: Chris Fleming

Episode Date: March 12, 2026
Host: Rachel Martin (NPR)
Guest: Chris Fleming, comedian, creator of HBO special "Live at the Palace"

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Episode Overview

In this episode of Wild Card, Rachel Martin sits down with comedian Chris Fleming, celebrated for his unique blend of comedy and physical performance, to explore life’s deeper questions, unexpected blessings, the role of audience in performance, identity, grief, art, and the transformative power of dance. Through the show’s signature “deck of cards” format, Chris shares candid, humorous, and moving reflections on his past jobs, creative struggles, gender expression, loss, and what he hopes for future generations.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Early Work and Lessons Learned

• First Job Memories & Lessons ([01:43])
  • Chris’s first job as a country club greeter taught him the value of money and effort, but didn’t inspire him to join the “country club set.”
    • “The idea of money not being nebulous anymore…put this in and you can get this out.” ([02:18])
  • Humorous mishaps: losing a pitching wedge as a caddy (“eliminated in round one”) and being fired for sunbathing topless on the green ([03:23]).
  • Rachel and Chris bond over their mutual experiences with golf clubs—the glamorized but “horrible” realities of being a cart girl and the misogyny often experienced in that role ([04:34], [05:04]).

2. Rejecting Norms & Discovering Friendship

• Adolescent Identity ([06:16])
  • Chris describes rejecting the “ruling class” social hierarchy of jocks in high school, electing instead for authentic connection and deep friendship.
    • “I started rejecting… the hierarchy of what was cool. Instead, I opted for connection and foregoing that kind of oppressive desire for status.” ([06:58])
  • Found courage in a close friendship with “Harford” (Chris Harford), enabling both to “live a freakier, uninhibited lifestyle” ([08:11]).
  • Lasting bonds—Chris remains close with his friend, even fulfilling ritual duties at his wedding ([09:13]).

3. Family Lore & Early Artistic Leanings

• Childhood Stories ([09:52])
  • Chris recounts a family story about his early love for dance—being moved to tears at three when told to stop performing ([10:00]).
  • Another family story has his mother recognizing his comedic talent during a high school play, shifting to support his creative path ([12:04]).
    • “She saw me improvising on stage, and she said… ‘Ah, I get it. That’s where he’s putting this…it’s where all this is going.’” ([12:04])
  • Dancing becomes a theme: Chris’s passion for dance as a mode of expression, citing the limitations of language ([13:08], [14:01]).

4. On-Stage Persona & The Special’s Theatrics

• Costuming & Physical Comedy ([15:22])
  • Deep dive into his HBO special’s costume: a purple bodysuit with plunging neckline, dramatic collar, butterfly (“maybe dragonfly”) motif, and ruby red (salsa) dance shoes ([16:10]).
  • The act of removing sleeves at the start—a “burlesque for the sex-negative,” illustrating the importance of physicality and audience connection ([17:54]).
    • “When I remove an article of clothing, people get a little rodeo.” ([19:13])
  • Rachel highlights Chris’s dancer’s instincts and his grounding, transformative relationship with gravity and movement (“I thrive in the coming down.”) ([19:40]–[20:33]).

5. Audience Relationship & Performance Vulnerability

• Being Held by the Audience ([36:07])
  • Chris compares himself to a “vampire”—his physical comedy needs invitation and participation from the audience.
    • “The physical stuff, I’m like a vampire. I need to be invited in…You are working together…it is a collaboration.” ([36:07], [36:41])
  • Shares a story of being physically “stuck” in a somersault onstage, unable to continue due to insufficient audience laughter ([36:33]).
  • The experience of performing in a “consensual relationship” with the crowd ([36:41]).

6. Navigating Rejection & Embracing Disappointment

• Career Setbacks as Growth ([30:47], [32:41])
  • Chris describes losing a TV series at Adult Swim, and how this painful setback forced a pivot into more committed stand-up ([30:47]).
    • “It’s those moments where you are so fucked. Those are the moments where your Grinch heart grows, you know, 10 sizes.” ([31:03])
  • Recounts industry rejections related to gender expression, e.g., a manager asking about his “women’s clothes,” highlighting resilience in the face of prejudice ([34:44]).
    • “What’s with the women’s clothes, man?” ([34:48])
  • Reflects on how culture may take time to “catch up,” paralleling the journey of “The Hustler” and needing adversity to build character ([35:26]).

7. Observing Life and Feeling Like an Outsider

• The “Outsider” Perspective ([27:12])
  • Chris reveals he often feels like an observer, needing time alone to process real-life experiences ([27:12]).
    • “I think I’m more of an observer than I had ever really known… I can feel a part very often in almost anything.” ([27:12])
  • Discusses the challenge of balancing onstage affirmation with nurturing real relationships ([29:37]–[29:57]).

8. Mystique, Terry Gross, and Sacred Boundaries

• Terry Gross as Muse ([22:20])
  • Chris’s recurring Terry Gross impression is both comedic and sincere—a symbol of mystique and self-containment in a confessional age.
    • “There are very few mystical beings left in this world. Sufjan Stevens, Terry Gross…” ([23:26], [23:50])
  • On magical realism and protecting one’s interior life as a performer ([24:25]).

9. Symbols, Loss, and Grieving

• Birds as Personal Symbols ([38:50])
  • Chris associates herons with his mother, and Rachel shares that seagulls remind her of her late mom ([39:26]).
    • “Whenever I see a heron, I think of my mom…” ([38:50])
    • Both reflect on animal encounters and their spiritual meaning, with Rachel noting the “Christiany” symbolism of the seagull ([41:31]–[41:59]).
  • Rachel tells the story of her mother, an Idaho sculptor and passionate welder, whose legacy is celebrated in story ([43:00]–[43:36]).

10. Thoughts on the Afterlife

• Continuity and Redistribution ([44:02])
  • Chris believes in a nonliteral afterlife—a redistribution of a person’s energy and presence after death.
    • “It’s like a redistribution…in other ways.” ([44:32], [44:56])

11. Advice for Future Generations

• On Creative Authenticity in Algorithmic Times ([46:16])
  • Chris advises young people not to fear or serve “the algorithm,” but to pursue authentic connection, craft, and artistic fulfillment, even if not immediately rewarded by numbers or AI.
    • “There are people on the other side of the algorithm…You just need to follow your muse…devote yourself to the craft.” ([46:40]–[48:17])

12. Memory Time Machine: Linger-Worthy Moments

• Chris’s Choice ([48:35])
  • Summer of 2005, just before college, represents a time of innocence, friendship, and dancing—underscoring the magic in ordinary moments (“When Journey speaks to you…”).
• Rachel’s Choice ([49:47])
  • Motherhood: an impromptu kitchen dance party with her small children, embracing chaos and joy—“the only antidote to despair…is the little dance party.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Rejection Leading to Growth:
  “It’s those moments where you are so fucked. Those are the moments where your Grinch heart grows 10 sizes. Those are the only times that I grow and take it to the next level.”
  — Chris Fleming ([00:06], [31:03])

• On Early Work Experience:
  “My first job was I was a greeter at a local country club…That grounded me in a way that I’m really grateful for. The idea of money not being nebulous anymore.”
  — Chris Fleming ([01:47], [02:18])

• On Jock Hierarchy:
  “There was still this kind of…they were prisoners of cool in Massachusetts. And I went to high school, and then I started rejecting…the hierarchy of what was cool.”
  — Chris Fleming ([06:44], [06:58])

• On Art, Expression & Dance:
  “I think language is limiting, to be honest. Sometimes I get…such a dead end. And then you can get on stage and your body can do things.”
  — Chris Fleming ([13:08], [13:24])

• On Stage Energy:
  “I’m like a vampire. I need to be invited in…It is a collaboration. That’s why you can’t rehearse it.”
  — Chris Fleming ([36:07], [36:41])

• On Performing for an Audience that "Doesn't See Me":
  “You don’t want to see me perform for an audience that doesn’t see me. That can be brutal.”
  — Chris Fleming ([36:07])

• On standing up to industry prejudice:
  “What’s with the women’s clothes, man?...It was bone-chilling.”
  — Chris Fleming ([34:48])

• On Mystique and Magic:
  “There are very few mystical beings left in this world. Sufjan Stevens, Terry Gross… I love someone who activates my magical realism…Who just, who ignites it.”
  — Chris Fleming ([23:50], [24:25])

• On Afterlife and Redistribution:
  “When you experience death…the communication is undeniable…it’s like a redistribution.”
  — Chris Fleming ([44:07]–[44:32])

• On Creative Advice:
  “To no longer fear the algorithm and to not live in subservience…You just need to follow your muse…That’s the road to your own creative salvation.”
  — Chris Fleming ([46:40]–[48:17])

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Important Segment Timestamps

• [00:06] — Disappointing experiences as blessing
• [01:43] — First job lessons
• [06:16] — Rejecting teenage norms
• [09:52] — Family stories about Chris
• [13:08] — Dance as deeper expression
• [15:22] — Costume and special’s opening
• [19:40] — Dance and acceptance of gravity
• [22:20] — Terry Gross as muse
• [27:12] — On feeling like an outsider
• [30:47, 32:41] — Major career disappointment, gender prejudice story
• [36:07, 36:41] — Needing audience energy
• [38:50] — Animal symbols & family
• [44:02] — Belief in afterlife (“redistribution”)
• [46:16] — Message to younger generations
• [48:35] — “Memory time machine” moments

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Tone & Feel

The conversation is vulnerable, witty, warm, and occasionally irreverent, matching both Chris’s comedic sensibility and Rachel’s empathetic, curious style. The episode balances humor and depth, punctuated by personal stories, insightful analogies, and mutual respect.

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Summary

This episode of Wild Card offers an intimate, spirited look at the mind of Chris Fleming—his irrepressible humor, life’s setbacks and blessings, artistic process, and the profound role of community, resilience, and joy (especially through dance) in navigating the absurdity and poignancy of modern life. The back-and-forth dynamic, full of laughter and real moments, embodies the show’s mission: to skip the small talk and build connection through the questions that matter most.

Transcript

[Rachel Martin]

Just a heads up, there's a little bit of cursing in this episode. What's a disappointing experience that now feels like a blessing?

[Chris Fleming]

Oh, so many. Rachel. It's those moments where you are so fucked. Like, those are the moments where you. Where your heart, your Grinch heart grows, you know, 10 sizes. Those are the only times that I grow and take it to the next level.

[Rachel Martin]

I'm Rachel Martin, and this is Wild Card, the show where cards control the conversation. Each week, my guest answers questions about their life. Questions pulled from a deck of cards. They're allowed to skip one question and to flip one back on me. My guest this week is Chris Fleming.

[Chris Fleming]

My audience holds me completely. I mean, you don't want to see me perform for an audience that doesn't see me. I mean, that can be brutal. I'm like a vampire. I need to be invited in.

[Rachel Martin]

After watching Chris Fleming's new HBO comedy special, Live at the Palace, I had this strange ache in my face because of the Permagren I'd been holding for more than an hour. I grinned and guffawed my way through the entire thing. My God, I laughed so hard. At one point, I was tearing up. It is my great pleasure to welcome the comedic genius known as Chris Fleming to Wildcard.

[Producer/Announcer]

Hi.

[Chris Fleming]

Hi, Rachel. Thank you so much for having me.

[Rachel Martin]

Are you ready?

[Chris Fleming]

Yeah, I'm ready, Rachel.

[Rachel Martin]

Round one memories. These are the cards.

[Chris Fleming]

We even got the branding on the back.

[Rachel Martin]

That's right. What do you think this is like? We are npr, man.

[Producer/Announcer]

You pick one.

[Chris Fleming]

Usually I think a tote material for npr. I've never seen a gloss to npr.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay, that's right. That's what we are. We're glossy. Okay, you pick 1, 2, or 3.

[Chris Fleming]

I'm picking. I saw a clip of Oprah doing this with you, and she picked two, so I'm picking two.

[Rachel Martin]

What's something you took away from your first job?

[Chris Fleming]

My first job was I was a greeter at a local country club. And I was too young. My dad was. I think my dad started working as like, a ship rat when he was like, he grew up in. He was born in, like, 48, so he grew up in East Boston. And he was. I think he was probably working in kindergarten. Like, that's kind of the vibe of that area. So he wanted me to kind of follow in the same footsteps. And I think he was also concerned about my work ethic, so he got me a job. I think I was like, maybe fifth, sixth grade, and I greeted people at this country club, and I think that that Grounded me in a real. In a way that I'm really grateful for. The idea of money not being nebulous anymore. The idea of, like, okay, you do this, you get this is what this means. And it's like, you put this in and you can get this out. I was just really grateful for that understanding. But no, I had no desire to be the country club people.

[Rachel Martin]

I'm still curious as to what you did. You just stood at the door and you said, welcome, Mr. Pendergrast.

[Chris Fleming]

Yeah, I would put their golf club. I would. I would talk to them and I would put their clubs on golf carts. I would kind of like. Kind of like talk them up a little bit. I would. Because I. I wanted the most coveted job in our town was to be a caddy, because. And I. So we all took this course to be a caddy, and I was eliminated. Round one of like, there were like maybe 10 rounds and I was eliminated.

[Rachel Martin]

I'm very sorry, but what do you have to do to get eliminated from being a caddy?

[Chris Fleming]

You have to lose the guy's pitching wedge. Oh, I don't know what that is,

[Rachel Martin]

but that sounds bad.

[Chris Fleming]

It's a club, and I lost it in the marsh. I lost. I think those clubs are hundreds of dollars. And so, yeah, I was asked to step down and relinquish my role. And then I was ultimately let go for sunbathing on one of the greens. I was topless. I was topless going full Ferris B just on the green. And they were like, I'll never forget Jim, AKA Coach. He said, chris, God made you, and he threw away the mold. We can't work with you anymore, though. And I had to leave and I got another job, I think at a dry cleaner, but I was allergic to the. I'm allergic to cats, so it was bad. What was your first job?

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, it's not nearly as exciting. I mean, I worked at a golf club, but I was in college. Not. But was that one of my first jobs?

[Chris Fleming]

I mean, don't tell me you were a cart girl.

[Rachel Martin]

Yes. Oh, my God. You know what that is?

[Chris Fleming]

I had such a crush on the cart girls. I mean, they truly like Farrah Fawcett. The image of the cart girl, hair in the wind, doing a little bit of a wave, giving out Michelob ultras to these horrible misogynists who are literally wolf whistling her.

[Rachel Martin]

I mean, it was just. It's not a good job. I mean, it's a good job in that you get a lot of cash. But this was before Metoo you know, this was the 90s.

[Chris Fleming]

Oh, it's. It's literally Marilyn Monroe trying to cover. Pushing the.

[Rachel Martin]

It was not.

[Chris Fleming]

No, it's horrible. That was horrible the way. Cause it's like. It's almost like maritime law. The golf course. Cause there's no jurisdiction.

[Rachel Martin]

It's international water.

[Chris Fleming]

Imported land. Yeah, yeah, International. And they're getting progressively drunker. Yeah, they're all bad at golf. I mean, let's just. So they're getting frustrated. Yeah. And.

[Rachel Martin]

And it also.

[Chris Fleming]

Golf shirts also, like. I mean, it's like the opposite of Spanx. Like, I, I'm. I, I. I don't believe that there. There's anything horrible about the human body until I see a guy in a golf shirt, and I'm like, Jesus Christ. And it's like the shine of it. It's like, it's like. But it's like the color of a hospital wall. But, like, if you lacquered it, that's like, what are we doing, guys?

[Rachel Martin]

Okay, question number two.

[Chris Fleming]

Okay.

[Rachel Martin]

My God, we're only at two. Okay. One, two, three.

[Chris Fleming]

Okay. Can we pick card? Oh, you want me to pick one? One.

[Rachel Martin]

No, no, no. I was just reminding you. One, two.

[Chris Fleming]

I'm easily bought. I'm easily. You could. One. I love it.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay. One.

[Chris Fleming]

Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

What did you reject as a teenager?

[Chris Fleming]

Oof. I think what I started rejecting as a teen, I was. What comes to mind is I was friends with jocks, and God loved them in middle school. Kind of the ruling class socially.

[Rachel Martin]

I don't mean to. I take that back. I sounded surprised in that response. And I want to rewind that, because

[Chris Fleming]

you hit a mezzo soprano when you asked it. Yeah. You did the Mariah Carey note. No. It's very surprising. But let me to be clear, I was the. It was very much the donkey with horses situate. Like, I was not like, they. I was very maternal to them. That's. I think I was very soothing. I think that's why they liked me. And they had me on their soccer team and everything. And the only goal I ever scored was accidentally was tripping over the ball. And you would have thought it was like an old dog's birthday party, the way that they celebrated me. Like they would. They were so sweet and everything, but there was a. There was. There was still this kind of. They were prisoners of cool in Massachusetts. And I went to high school, and then I started rejecting the kind of. The social norm or, like, the hierarchy of what was cool, caring about that. Instead, I opted for connection and foregoing that kind of oppressive desire for status, I guess, in the society.

[Rachel Martin]

So that's an amazing thing to do in middle school as a parent of two middle school boys.

[Chris Fleming]

How.

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, I mean, how did you do that? Because that takes a kind of courage and self confidence that are in short supply when you're 12, 13, 14.

[Chris Fleming]

The way I was able to do it was through a very deep friendship with someone else who was also going through that. And we were kind of, we were like, let's get out of these shackles. We didn't say so much as this, but we just started. We were so close and, and it was much more fun to live a freakier, uninhibited lifestyle. And we laughed more and we weren't afraid. And I have so much love for the jocks, the ruling class, but it wasn't an organic fit. And yeah, I just, I think friendship wins over that.

[Rachel Martin]

What a lucky thing to have had that other friend.

[Chris Fleming]

Oh, so lucky. Harford. Yeah, his name's Hartford. Chris Harford. Well, because we're both named Chris so we call each other by our last names.

[Rachel Martin]

Are you still close with Chris? Other Chris? Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Chris Fleming]

Oh, yeah, yeah. He just got married and I in, I think I can say this in the Russian Orthodox Church. And so I had to got to hold a crown over his head and chase him around. Have you seen that?

[Rachel Martin]

I have not, I have not witnessed that particular ritual.

[Chris Fleming]

Yeah. And. But luckily there were other Russians. He married a Russian Orthodox. Lovely woman. And her brothers are all these strong Russian men. And so they could tell when like I was shaking, so they would come and tap me out and take over and like, it was beautiful.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, that's amazing.

[Chris Fleming]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay, last one in this round. One, two or three?

[Chris Fleming]

Three, please.

[Rachel Martin]

Three. What story does your family always tell about you?

[Chris Fleming]

My mom. Okay, can I tell two? Yeah, real quick. Three years old, my sister's taking ballet. She is dancing, dancing, dancing. And then a little three year old me and I didn't speak until I was three. My sister spoke for me. I wanted to dance too. So I get up, she's like, okay, Chrissy, you could dance. I do a little dance. She goes, okay, Chrissy, that's enough. Puts me back on her lap, we're both facing out, and she starts feeling these drops on her leg. My tears. I wanted to keep dancing. Yeah, the ballet. I was drawn to the ballet. Then another one that she tells is she was very concerned about, about my performance in school. My sister, 18 months older than me, salutatorian queen of the town. Just everyone, just, oh, Katie Fleming. Like, just the best person. And so this bought me a lot of goodwill with the teachers for a couple weeks. And then they were like, wait a

[Rachel Martin]

second, we're under you.

[Chris Fleming]

Yeah, this one's different. This one's wretched. And so my mom was like. My mom. My mom was. She wanted an army of undeniable, undeniable children. Right? She wanted people. She wanted us to be fucking baller. And then my mom was. There was this tension of just like, Chris, Chris. And then she saw me in a play my junior year of high school, where I improvised. I was a woman with multiple personality disorder. And so I had. This was back in the, you know, pre 9, 11 days, so. Or actually. Right. So, like, personality disorders were still there. Wasn't. It was still okay to do that in a class play. I get it. And have it and have it be fun. And you were not canceled.

[Rachel Martin]

Yes.

[Chris Fleming]

No, no, no. And so she saw me improvising on stage, and she said. And the story she tells is, she goes, ah, I get it. Okay, that's where he's putting this. That's where all this is going. And so she started investing in being like, where can we looked up open mics for stand up in the area.

[Rachel Martin]

So she was into it. She saw it.

[Chris Fleming]

Oh, yeah. She was like, okay, this is where all of that is going.

[Rachel Martin]

But what about in the initial, the first story with the crying and the. I need to just dance. The dance is in me and I need to dance. How did she respond to that? Did you have to work to get access to that part of yourself? Or did she sign you up for lessons or how'd that go?

[Chris Fleming]

She did not. No, no. This was. This was puritanical New England. This was. So, no, I had to just kind of let that out socially through social dance. I did start dancing in college. I'm very, very passionate about dancing.

[Rachel Martin]

What do you love about it?

[Chris Fleming]

Oh, I love. I mean, I think language is limiting, to be honest. Sometimes I get.

[Rachel Martin]

Told me about it. I'm like a talker for a living. And I'm still like, nope.

[Chris Fleming]

Do you ever, like, think, like, oh, yeah, I'm gonna really get there with this? And then you start talking. You're like, that's not.

[Rachel Martin]

It's not the right words.

[Chris Fleming]

Yeah, no, no, it's. Sometimes I think it's such a. Such a dead end. And then, like. And then you can get on stage and your body can do things. I mean, I used to see it at college, the modern dancers seeing what they. I mean, me and my friend Jer, you know, at our freshman orientation, it just changed everything. This group called Terpsichery. The way that the contemporary ballet and modern. It was. I mean, it's just. Yeah, it's just. It's just amazing.

[Rachel Martin]

But you were. At some point there was like a. I'm pretty funny. I'm also a good dancer. I guess I'm funnier than I am a good dancer.

[Chris Fleming]

The. I always wanted to be a comedian. That was always the goal. And as soon as I saw my dad watch Robin Williams and Mork and Mindy and the way he was laughing, I was like, that's what I want to do. And so that was always the goal. I liked choreographing things in high school, but I never even. Until this round of press, I never even really considered how much dance means to me. And people have just been asking me about it and I've been like, oh, I guess I haven't explored it that much.

[Rachel Martin]

You do move your body a lot in this special.

[Chris Fleming]

Uhhuh. I do? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, my God. Let's get into it. Let's get into it.

[Producer/Announcer]

This message comes from Apple Card. Apple Card members can earn unlimited daily cash back on everyday purchases wherever they shop. This means you could be earning daily cash on just about anything, like a slice of pizza or a latte from the corner coffee shop. Apply for Apple Card in the Wallet app to see your credit limit offer in minutes. Subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch terms and [e-mail].

[Rachel Martin]

Okay, so we're gonna step away from the game and let's just talk about

[Chris Fleming]

your special because you like how the pants. The pants fit a little bit like Swayze, I think, and Dirty Dancing.

[Rachel Martin]

I mean, this is my first question to you.

[Chris Fleming]

Okay.

[Rachel Martin]

The costume is chef's kiss.

[Chris Fleming]

Tony. Tony Sartino, who made clothes for Prince from 2000 to 2013. I looked him up because I saw Prince in this golden sequin outfit and also these high collars. And I said, who's making these? And I reached out to him and we started working together. And he's just the gentle knowing that this man has. I mean, the elegance that this man has. He is none of this. My. The current momentum I have right now, I would say is largely due to the clothes that Tony makes for me.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay, we need to describe this outfit for people who have not yet seen the special.

[Chris Fleming]

Yeah, yeah, sorry, sorry. I have a pre operational way of thinking that everyone has experienced everything that I've seen and experienced. So I apologize for that. I never give enough detail.

[Rachel Martin]

I mean, this is also on me because it's so seared into my mind. I'm like, doesn't everyone know what you look like? Because it's unforgettable. All right. Purple bodysuit, deep V neck, plunging. Plunging, if you will. Stiff big collar.

[Chris Fleming]

Although it gets a little floppy because I'm moving around so much.

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, that's true.

[Chris Fleming]

Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

Butterfly brooch on the back.

[Chris Fleming]

He calls it a butterfly. Yeah, I think it's more of a dragonfly. But Tony insists it's a butterfly, so he would know he got it.

[Rachel Martin]

I love it.

[Chris Fleming]

I haven't looked at it too much. Cause it's on my back. It's none of my business.

[Rachel Martin]

It's true, it's true. But it's just like he got me coming and going. There's something interesting. No matter which side of me you look at. Okay. So that I just want to give.

[Chris Fleming]

And ruby red slippers.

[Rachel Martin]

Ruby red slippers is right.

[Chris Fleming]

Sorry. Ruby red dance shoes. Those are a salsa shoe. A Capezio. That were bedazzled.

[Rachel Martin]

They're amazing. I mean, the whole thing is just so good. But I want to talk about the moment at the very beginning. Because this could have just been, you know, this long sleeve. Beautiful long lines. But it's a big to do, Chris, because you take em off, the sleeves come off, and it's a big old thing. And then there's a big moment. And walk me through why it was important to you that you be able to remove your clothing at the beginning of the special.

[Chris Fleming]

Oh, it's because, I mean, I do burlesque for the sex negative.

[Rachel Martin]

There was so much in that sentence that I wasn't quite sure if I was reacting to the right thing.

[Chris Fleming]

The way you reacted, I was like, oh, no. Rachel thinks I'm being serious. I was like, oh, okay. In my theater. I've been doing theater shows for so long, like, kind of in the shadows. And like all great fungi, you know, we grow best in the shadows, right? And so I have been kind of experiencing all these things, like all these kind of unspoken tricks. Because we only have so many tricks as performers. A live performer, if it's just you on the stage, you gotta hit certain beats, you gotta hit certain decibels. And you gotta make that room shake. And I found that when I remove an article of clothing, people get a little rodeo. And so we knew. Tony knew that. That my arms had to be out because I'm moving around so Much. And I perform in tank top. I mean, I can wear something up top. But then we talked a lot about when do the sleeves come off. And the more we talked about it.

[Producer/Announcer]

Really?

[Chris Fleming]

Yeah. It kept getting earlier and earlier it was gonna be halfway, and then people were like, you know what? Let's take the ladies out. Let's just take the ladies out. Right up top.

[Rachel Martin]

You have beautiful arms. I mean, they're very long and your legs are long. And the dancer in you, I mean, you can't help yourself. Every time you extend a limb, you're finishing it, Chris. You finish it. Your toes are perfectly pointed.

[Chris Fleming]

See, that's what I'm talking about with dance. It's not conscious. No. That's why it's muscle memory. Yeah. The body saves you through the instincts of the body and of course, through the modern dance teaching and the accepting of gravity and understanding entropy and how all things fall apart. That's Chudua Xebe. But like, you know, you're gonna, you have to kind of accept accepting all that site specific work that we were taught at Improv Dance, that's what makes that all work. I mean, I think, I think I'm way less a. Way less inspired by ballet. Although I do love to defy. I do love to go up, but I really think where I thrive is the coming down. I think that the, I think that the accepting, the falling, all that shit and just like the.

[Rachel Martin]

You're good on the ground. You're good on the ground.

[Chris Fleming]

I love being. I am drawn to the ground.

[Rachel Martin]

It's good there, though. Like, you're moving and you're comfortable. It's not weird. I was so. I was just like, we could just be down here. There's like one time. You're down, the mic's down here. I'm like, that feels safe down there with you. I love it.

[Chris Fleming]

It feels so nice to rest down there.

[Rachel Martin]

Yes, yes.

[Chris Fleming]

In child's pose for a second. I feel so good. I'm just like talking shit about Lorne Michaels while I'm lying down. I don't even have to look at the audio. Oh, it's the mic on. I don't have to hold anything. Oh, my God.

[Rachel Martin]

Also there. And you talked about this in another interview, but you do enjoy putting all your body weight on small furniture. And it seems painful, though, to me.

[Chris Fleming]

Well, there's, there's. I, I get so bruised and battered in these after these shows.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah.

[Chris Fleming]

Oh, completely. And, and, and weird things. It's actually in the Terry Gross bit where I'm I'm squeezing. I'm Terry Gross straddling Adam Driver on a. On a. On a stool. And so I'm squeezing the stool. And you wouldn't think it, but that's where I get bruised the most from that. So it's never the things that look like, oh, God, like, Chris is not gonna get back up. Those things aren't the worst. It's the weird things that hurt me the most.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. That's when you know you're getting old, by the way. It's like things that shouldn't hurt you do. Like when you're pretending to be NPR's iconic Terry Gross squeezing acclaimed actor Adam Driver at the neck with your thighs.

[Chris Fleming]

Thank you.

[Rachel Martin]

Which is the band we're referring to.

[Chris Fleming]

That's even funnier when you describe it. That's so much funnier.

[Rachel Martin]

But at this point, this is the point in the conversation where I, as the host of an NPR podcast, need to ask more about your perceived reverence for Terry Gross.

[Chris Fleming]

My muse.

[Rachel Martin]

What is your muse?

[Chris Fleming]

You talking about TG right now?

[Rachel Martin]

I'm talking about the Terror. I've never met the Terror, so I don't. I don't. I mean, it's.

[Chris Fleming]

Of course you have. No, I don't even think the Obamas have access to Terry. I mean, Terry. Terry records, from what I've heard in, like, a chamber in Philadelphia, facing, like, a window, and she doesn't see the people. She's in, like, a sensory deprivation tank. Right. She's, like, on the sea floor, and no one has access to. She's like the Chupacabra if it went to Wesleyan or wherever she went. You know, like, the Mystery of Terry.

[Rachel Martin]

But it's also wonderful because we do, as the host of a show where people are supposed to spill their guts, Terry's like, no, thank you. People don't need to know me. Like, I'm. I will. I will be asking the questions here. You know, that's.

[Chris Fleming]

And I think it's. That's the power that I'm tapping into when I try to talk about her. And also, I relate to that. I also. I think that sometimes I think people bleed too much about themselves, and then as soon as. When they do. Not you. Not interviewers.

[Rachel Martin]

Of course not. Yeah.

[Chris Fleming]

No, no. But I mean, like, comedians. I think sometimes it's like. Like, okay, we get it. I think sometimes we know too much about people, and I think there are very few mystical beings left in this world. Sufjan Stevens, Terry Gross. Who else?

[Rachel Martin]

That's it. It's a Short list.

[Chris Fleming]

All of Sweden or Iceland. Sweden or Iceland. But there's. There is. There is such a. Yeah. I love. I love someone who activates my magical realism. Like, who really. Who just. Who ignites it. Because I think that's my. I think that's kind of what I do is. Is a lot of the time I'm drawn to magical realism and Terry. I've been. I have been obsessed with Terry Gross for years.

[Rachel Martin]

Really.

[Chris Fleming]

And we need to make this happen.

[Rachel Martin]

I mean, I don't know.

[Chris Fleming]

You know, it's like a point on the horizon. No. No. I couldn't meet her. And we could do. I think my heart might just stop. I think I might just evaporate after I met Terry Gross. Cause my hero's journey is complete. And then I can fade. Fade back. Fade back into the Atlantic.

[Rachel Martin]

It is hilarious. I hope that you are enjoying all of the wonderful feedback that I hope you're getting, because it is a fantastic experience. I'm not joking. So thank you for making it.

[Chris Fleming]

Thank you, Rachel. I really appreciate that.

[Rachel Martin]

Round two cards are blue. One, two or three? This is insights. This is insights. I should have told you. Insights.

[Chris Fleming]

What do you mean? Okay, I guess we'll know.

[Rachel Martin]

I don't know. Who knows? It's up to you to interpret.

[Chris Fleming]

I don't have any insights, Rachel. You have more insights than me. I'm just impulsive. Okay.

[Rachel Martin]

What did you pick? What did you impulsively pick? I can't remember.

[Chris Fleming]

2.

[Rachel Martin]

2.

[Chris Fleming]

Because Oprah did it.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, that's right. What's a quality you're drawn to that you don't possess?

[Chris Fleming]

The ability to be blunt with people.

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, interesting. Yeah, you can be.

[Chris Fleming]

I'm a. I'm. I'm getting better at it. And the ability to kind of, like, you know, be like. No, like this. Like, it's a, you know, that kind of New Jersey quality.

[Rachel Martin]

Do you think that's an admirable quality? Because sometimes a person who's blunt, it's sometimes not nice.

[Chris Fleming]

Oh. I think that I was raised to be so surrendering my own needs for others that I'm not even in touch. Like, I could truly be ablaze right now and be trying to make you more comfortable. That's the way that I was raised. And so unless I'm on stage, that's one area where I can run amok. But interpersonally, I'm very, very tapped into other people's experiences. And so I'm very, I would say, overly deferential a lot of the time in trying to make everything okay. And so I really admire. I'm just really drawn to people who are, who are good and kind, but also able to kind of like be like, nope, that's enough. Yeah, I couldn't imagine being like that. So I really like that in a person. But I'm getting better. I'm getting better with old age comes that my twilight years.

[Rachel Martin]

Next.

[Chris Fleming]

Oh, okay. Three.

[Rachel Martin]

One, two, three. Okay, three. When do you feel most like an outsider?

[Chris Fleming]

Okay. Could I say in reality? Yes. I think that I come to terms with like I can be present and all that. But I think that a lot of my. The way I'm wired, I think I'm more of an observer than I had ever really known. And so I think in reality it's almost like I need to have an experience and then process. Like I need the time alone to process what that was. And so I think I can feel a part very often in almost anything. Especially the older I get it. Maybe I'm just more in tune with it or the life or like the career that I have.

[Rachel Martin]

But that makes sense to me.

[Chris Fleming]

I can feel very much like floating above things, not above it.

[Rachel Martin]

I understand what you mean. Quality part from it.

[Chris Fleming]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like kind of like a. Like a peeping tom.

[Rachel Martin]

But as a performer, doesn't that help you to sort of disassociate that way?

[Chris Fleming]

Unfortunately, performing disconnects you from. Because people, People. I think that people who I haven't talked to in forever like see what I'm doing and they think that we are in touch because they're seeing that and I'm not getting that I get so much. But it is a one sided thing and it can obviously yield such narcissism because the dopamine, I keep loving that attention. But then also ultimately you're like wait. Because you're craving this grander thing than the thing that you actually need, which is the two sided. How you doing, man? It can take you further from that. The busier you are, the more so I think performance, while it's the best thing for the soul in so many ways in terms of. Dude, I just think about college. I mean the way adult life post college, like we are. We were set up for such social success in college. Like the way like those bonds and everything and it is just so hard to maintain social stuff after, you know, with that intimacy.

[Producer/Announcer]

Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

So are you trying to. Are you. Sounds like you're aware of that. So do you, you work at it. You're to try to counterbalance the like dopamine Hit of the performer Chris. Performer Chris. And all the affirmation and validation that comes from that. And then that's a very.

[Chris Fleming]

Yeah, yeah. And then. And then everything else, people.

[Rachel Martin]

Your real relationships and recharge.

[Chris Fleming]

Yeah, yeah. And concern for everybody else outweighs that ultimately all the time. Which is great. Which is. Which is. Which is one. Thank God. But, like, I could see how you understand how people become fucking maniacs, you know, Like, I'm getting attention right now this week that is like. I don't know, it's like. But I understand that that attention keeps you from the art. It keeps you from the. Right. It keeps you from the thing that is getting you the attention. So it's like I gotta just, you

[Rachel Martin]

know, move through it and then kind of forget about it.

[Chris Fleming]

Forget about it.

[Rachel Martin]

Forget about it.

[Chris Fleming]

That's your catchphrase, right?

[Rachel Martin]

Definitely. Yeah, definitely.

[Chris Fleming]

I think I saw that.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay, 1, 2 or 3?

[Chris Fleming]

1, please.

[Rachel Martin]

1. What's a disappointing experience that now feels like a blessing?

[Chris Fleming]

Oh, so many. Rachel. I mean, I had an Adult Swim show that we were sure was gonna go to series, and then it didn't. And I was. I mean, I had just rescued a senior dog thinking that I was gonna, you know, all that. The money of that. And that was all part of this. I'm very bad at making financial decisions before something happens. And then I often, like, level myself. But if I hadn't had that, I would not have gotten as serious as I did about standup after, because I was like, it's those moments where you are so fucked. Like, those are the moments where your heart, your Grinch heart grows, you know, 10 sizes. But the. No, like, being able to be like, well, I am completely fucked. How are we gonna. How do we regroup and move from this? That is just. Life is just hitting your chin on the pool over and over again. And then just those are the only times that I grow and. But it is hard to the next level.

[Rachel Martin]

There are certain people who are just built with that resilience, though, because a creative rejection like that, I think for most people takes a long time. Or you go back to the woodshed and retool and have a lot of self judgment about, am I even good at this? And it's interesting to me that you went back to the woodshed and you came out with stand up. Stand up is so vulnerable. It's like that. It's like you strip everything back. You know, there's no TV show around it. It's just you and your writing and your performing. So that's what came out of the woodshed with.

[Chris Fleming]

Which is so amazing because you don't need, like, 30 producers fucking needle dicks in, you know, plastic frame glass. Those clear frame glasses every producer has who love to have pitch rehearsal, meeting. It's like, I get it. You're salaried. Some of us, you know, like, they just, like, over and over again, just, like, development just fucking kill me. Like, you know what? How about I go out on fucking stage and I just paint the image that you and I would have to work on for two years to the point where I don't even care about that idea anymore. I've already moved on to something else. And then ultimately, we're about to have it made, and then the CEO steps down or.

[Rachel Martin]

And it's over. They sell to a different corporate overlord, and the whole thing's gone.

[Chris Fleming]

Whenever anyone loves me at a TV studio, that's when I'm like, oh, God. I turn the sand timer over because they have three weeks left at that place before they are extradited.

[Rachel Martin]

Like, you're the harbinger of doom.

[Chris Fleming]

Of doom.

[Rachel Martin]

There's an inverse relationship between the longevity of said CEO and their love for you.

[Chris Fleming]

Exactly. That's when I go, okay, don't invest in. In Netflix, guys, because. Yeah. But I think that the disappointments, I think are. And again, I mean, so many disappointments as a young comic. Cause it was like, I got attention early on, and then there was nothing for a while because I was kind of going through this. A different expression of my gender. And I met with a certain manager at 3 Arts who was like. Who was gonna sign me. But then he was like, what's with the women's clothes, dude? And I was like, oh, okay. And then he just, like, kind of lectured at me about. About that. And we didn't end up working together. And I was manager of this for, like, six years or seven years. And. Yeah, and there was. There were other people like that that were like, yeah, you know, we love Fleming, but, like, the wearing these, like, wearing these clothes. This. It's. And this. This was like 2011. So it was. I was like.

[Rachel Martin]

I. I just did finish the sentence. Like, the wearing the clothes.

[Chris Fleming]

What's with the women's clothes, man? That was that. I'll never forget that. I felt so full. It was like, ooh. It was bone chilling. Because we were in his office, and then he. Then he just did, like, a Bill Burr bit for me. Like, literally quoted a Bill Burr bit for, like, basically being like, bill doesn't need to wear women's clothes, which he doesn't. But, yeah, it was a really weird experience.

[Rachel Martin]

Do you remember what you said or did you say nothing and you just.

[Chris Fleming]

I think I was. I think I was like, God, I don't know. No, I think I was like, oh, I like them.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah.

[Chris Fleming]

Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

And I didn't feel like I was gonna have to defend it in this moment.

[Chris Fleming]

Yeah. Yeah. But so, you know, that's one of those things where culture can take a little bit of time to catch up to you. And I think of the hustler, Paul Newman. You know, he tries to win the pool game in the beginning, but he doesn't have the character yet. And then you go through your shit and you become ironclad. And not to say I'm ironclad. I am incredibly fragile.

[Rachel Martin]

But aren't you so much freer now? Like, just watching you on that stage, completely free. I don't like that kind of.

[Chris Fleming]

You don't free ness.

[Rachel Martin]

So you seem to me like someone who is.

[Chris Fleming]

Well, they hold me. My audience holds me completely. I mean, you don't want to see me perform for an audience that doesn't see me. I mean, that can be brutal. Because the physical stuff, I'm like a vampire. I need to be invited in. Like, the physical stuff needs to be. I need to get that encouragement. I truly one time got stuck in a somersault. They weren't laughing hard enough, so I couldn't continue. So I was stuck. I was truly stuck in this position. Flanny from Largo talks about it. I was stuck, I want to say, 10 minutes, and I'm just like. I was locked.

[Rachel Martin]

Wait, I don't get it. Because you needed them to laugh in order to release the summer song.

[Chris Fleming]

It's a consensual relationship. You need their laughter to keep you moving. I'm not a psycho. I'm not gonna be gallivanting around if they're not with me. I mean, it is a full. It is a collaboration. That's why you can't rehearse it. You are working together. And they. The space, also the theater that we chose, the width of the stage was really important. It took. We would time my sprint across at every stage that we toured. And this one took like four or five seconds for me to sprint across. So I was like, we gotta do it here. Cause that is a big stage. And so the space also really helps inspire you. But.

[Rachel Martin]

But I love that idea that you are propelled. Literally, you're physically propelled by the audience's affirmation and completely thing. That's like a beautiful thing.

[Chris Fleming]

It's wonderful. I mean caffeine helps, but you do need the people.

[Rachel Martin]

Speaking of caffeine, screw that guy. That guy makes me pissed.

[Chris Fleming]

That guy sucks.

[Rachel Martin]

That guy sucks.

[Chris Fleming]

That guy sucks.

[Rachel Martin]

You just say that out loud.

[Chris Fleming]

I don't think he works there anymore.

[Rachel Martin]

Good. I hope he doesn't work anywhere.

[Chris Fleming]

Foreign.

[Producer/Announcer]

This message comes from Apple Card. Apple Card members can earn unlimited daily cash back on everyday purchases wherever they shop. This means you could be earning daily cash on just about anything, like a slice of pizza or a latte from the corner coffee shop. Apply for Apple Card in the wallet app to see your credit limit offer in minutes. Subject to credit approval. Apple card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch terms and [e-mail].

[Rachel Martin]

All right, this is the beliefs round. Chris, three more. One, two or three one, please. Are there any recurring symbols that show up in your life?

[Chris Fleming]

Yeah, whenever I see a heron, I think of my mom because. Sorry, the. Yeah. Tough. Through sickness and stuff. The heron for some reason I think to her represented her mom and so through. Yeah, let me flip it.

[Rachel Martin]

What about you, seagull?

[Chris Fleming]

Oh, same. Okay. Birds. Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

My mom died in 2009 and oh my goodness, God bless her. She was, she was from like landlocked Idaho but she had this idea that the seagull was the most beautiful bird because it was near the beach and the water and the ocean, which is a place she never got to go. And this like trash eating rat bird my mom imbued with such like majesty.

[Chris Fleming]

Well, she didn't know that they could also go to park. They also like parking lots a lot. And also they're on Lake Michigan and I get so embarrassed for them. It's like they think this is the ocean, you know?

[Rachel Martin]

I know it's not. It's not. But that was her, that was her bird. And, and yeah. And so I get like weird seagulls coming up to me and I don't care what anyone says, they are literally they're coming up just to me. Okay. They're just coming up to me. It's not because of the pastrami sandwich in my hand. They are just coming up to commune and to be like, hi, honey, I'm still around. I still got you back and you're doing fine.

[Chris Fleming]

Yeah, it's really sweet.

[Rachel Martin]

Is her mom still around? I'm sorry, I don't know this.

[Chris Fleming]

Oh, she is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, she is. There's, there's, there's stuff but. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

Birds are powerful that way.

[Chris Fleming]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. God. Npr. You're good. You're good.

[Rachel Martin]

Also, the heron. Let's just be clear of the birds. The heron is a much more beautiful bird than the seagull.

[Chris Fleming]

Listen, seagulls get a bad rap because they hang out at Home Depot a lot like that in the parking lots. But, like, the way that they fly without moving, when they look like a marionette, you know, like, that's gorgeous.

[Rachel Martin]

That's true. Okay, I'm gonna put that in my, like, things that are cool about seagulls trove.

[Chris Fleming]

I love that you see her in that, because it's just undeniable. Like, that's the way the world works. It's just.

[Rachel Martin]

Well, it's also, like, my parents were very religious, and my mom had, like, this really expansive, beautiful kind of faith. And there's something Christiany about. Or Jesus y. About the, like, trash bird being, like, a beautiful thing. Like the. A poor, you know, maligned person and being elevated by faith or Jesus or whatever you want to call it. And my mom did that a lot, too, so it matches.

[Chris Fleming]

Anyways, I love. I mean, it's so beautiful, like someone landlocked. I mean, it's like, to me, that represents hope, you know? It's like

[Rachel Martin]

it's now you gone.

[Chris Fleming]

It's.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, because she always. She was a big dreamer, you know, she was an art. Oh, God. Now I'm off. I'm all off on it, Chris. But you'll appreciate it because she. She was an artist, and she. She. But she lived in this really tiny rural town in Idaho, and she married a man, and. But she could have had this other. This other different life, and I don't know that generation better. It would have been really, really different. And I think she did harbor a lot of hopes and aspirations that never were really allowed to be fulfilled.

[Chris Fleming]

What kind of art?

[Rachel Martin]

She was a sculptor.

[Chris Fleming]

Oh, my God.

[Rachel Martin]

She made cool stuff. She made really cool stuff.

[Chris Fleming]

Beautiful things for that generation. I think mostly as a masculine thing.

[Rachel Martin]

She was a welder. She decided she wanted to take a class, and then she took a welding class, and she made this huge sculpture that's, like, this big metal thing and this big thing of barbed wire and, oh, my God, this really very sweet woman. And we saw this piece, and we're

[Chris Fleming]

like, whoa, Mom, a steampunk.

[Rachel Martin]

What's going on there? Totally steampunk. Totally.

[Chris Fleming]

Your mom was a master of fire.

[Rachel Martin]

She was.

[Chris Fleming]

That's crazy.

[Rachel Martin]

She was a witch who worked.

[Chris Fleming]

You're saying she was making barbed Wire sculptures.

[Rachel Martin]

That's right. She was hardcore. Linda Scarborough Martin was her name.

[Chris Fleming]

Linda Scarborough Martin.

[Rachel Martin]

She was epic.

[Chris Fleming]

That's a Paul. That's a Paul Simon song right there. Linda Scarborough Martin.

[Rachel Martin]

Thanks for letting me talk about her.

[Chris Fleming]

Thank you for sharing about her.

[Rachel Martin]

I feel like I talk about her all the time on this show. People are gonna be like, I get it. Enough about you.

[Chris Fleming]

No, no. Too bad.

[Rachel Martin]

Chris made me one. Two or three?

[Chris Fleming]

Um, three, please. Okay.

[Rachel Martin]

This is also deathy. Do you think there's any part of us that lives on after we die?

[Chris Fleming]

Oh, my God, of course.

[Rachel Martin]

Which part?

[Chris Fleming]

All of us. The way. I mean, when you experience death and the way that the signs come immediately, it's. The communication is undeniable. I mean, no, it's. They're. Even when a part of somebody

[Rachel Martin]

starts

[Chris Fleming]

to, like, fade, you know, it's like you can feel them. Yeah, it's like a redistribution.

[Rachel Martin]

Yes, yes.

[Chris Fleming]

In other ways. And so. Oh, yeah, no, no. I. I feel a deep connection with. I love the word.

[Rachel Martin]

Redistribution is a beautiful word. And it.

[Chris Fleming]

Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

And I don't mean that, like. It's not that it's clinical. It's just. It just is. It just is.

[Chris Fleming]

Oh, yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

And then we're over here, and.

[Producer/Announcer]

Yeah.

[Chris Fleming]

Yeah. Completely. Completely. And. And. And. And, yeah. Yeah. I think anyone who experiences death feels that. And also, you know, I'm. I. I don't really think too much about, like, where we go, you know, But I. But I know from experiencing that. Oh, the way that you care, the way that they're also out there, and also the way that we're. Dramaturg describes, you know, our souls are for their souls. Yep. Sorry.

[Rachel Martin]

Sorry.

[Chris Fleming]

God damn it. I gotta stop doing npr. You guys are killing me. Oh, my God.

[Rachel Martin]

This is the last question.

[Chris Fleming]

Kimmel's not doing this.

[Rachel Martin]

Actually, I think he would. I don't know.

[Chris Fleming]

Jimmy's.

[Rachel Martin]

I think he has a big, soppy heart.

[Chris Fleming]

Oh, that's true.

[Producer/Announcer]

Right?

[Rachel Martin]

He's weepy.

[Chris Fleming]

He's got those two sides. He's got the man show side and then the emo side.

[Rachel Martin]

Totally. All right, last one. One, two, three.

[Chris Fleming]

Let's do one, please.

[Rachel Martin]

What's something you want younger generations to understand? Okay, get on your soapbox.

[Chris Fleming]

Okay. Okay.

[Rachel Martin]

And then balance all of your body weight on it.

[Chris Fleming]

Yes, yes, yes, yes. I think that there is so much impetus or so much importance. Sorry. Put on the algorithm and on

[Rachel Martin]

the

[Chris Fleming]

mechanization of social media and everything. And there's about putting stuff out there and numbers, and I think that people are forgetting that there are people on the other side of the algorithm or whatever that is, and to no longer fear the algorithm and to not live in subservience to these companies or designs that reward arbitrary things, because that's not the road to your own creative salvation or also a lasting career. I think that it's really important to remember that we are as entertainers or writers or whatever we are, to remember that we are trying to land with people. And even if that's not rewarded algorithmically, you just need to follow your muse. That's what I would say to young people. And to just enter and to devote yourself to the. To the craft or whatever that is, to the trade. Because there's nothing more rewarding than a long road and starting to feel like you can authentically represent yourself how you once desired to as a child. It's just the best feeling. And it took me a long ass time, but it just feels so great to be able to do it and to be able to feel good about it.

[Rachel Martin]

We end the show the same way with a trip in our memory time machine. Okay, okay. In the memory time machine, you pick one moment from your past that you'd like to revisit. It's not a moment you want to change anything about. It's just a moment you'd like to linger in a little longer.

[Chris Fleming]

Summer 05.

[Rachel Martin]

Summer 05. You knew right away.

[Chris Fleming]

Summer 05. Why it was a summer senior year. Well, what's yours, Rachel? You tell me.

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, you can't flippity flip, flip, flip this one. Someone did that last week and now everyone's flipping the memory time machine with abandon. I mean, I. No, you tell me and then maybe I'll tell you.

[Chris Fleming]

I mean, it's just very simple. Summer 05. It was. It was summer of my senior year. Me and my friend group, we had never been closer. We knew that we were leaving something behind and going into the unexplored college world. And I think about my friend Dick's lake house, and we're all in the dock trying to catch fish with our hands or something, and we're just. And there's a. We're having a dance party. We were. Because we didn't drink until college. So we were just. So we're dancing. It was just. It was just exquisite. I just loved it. So all the. I listen. All that music I listened to from that era, under. Not from, but that we listen to under pressure. Don't stop believing. I got really into Journey. That's when you know you're having A formative moment when. When Journey speaks to you. It was just gorgeous, Rachel. I just loved it.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, I love that.

[Chris Fleming]

What about you?

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, you want my thing? Okay, so I have to sit for a second and conjure one. Cause I don't just have them, like, teed up. I mean. Oh, but see, now I feel like I'm being influenced by your answer, but I don't care, because in my mind, what's happening right now is also a dance party. My kids are maybe one and three. We are in the kitchen and. And Pharrell's song Happy is on. And all the pots and pans have been pulled out. There's half a box of Cheerios just lying on the ground.

[Chris Fleming]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

And they're just feral. And I'm sleep deprived. And, like, what have I done? I don't even know how to do this mothering thing. Like, what is even happening? And, like, my older kid, who's like, three, just, like, give me a grin and just, like, shake his little booty. And I was like, oh, you're right. That's what we're gonna do here. We're gonna. We're gonna dance. We are gonna dance. We are happy in the Cheerios. Melee, and that is what we're gonna do. And I love those dance parties so much.

[Chris Fleming]

Are you saying you're stomping amongst the Cheerios. The Cheerios are on a counter.

[Rachel Martin]

I was on the ground.

[Chris Fleming]

I had given up stereo. Cheerio.

[Rachel Martin]

Just gave up.

[Chris Fleming]

Chris.

[Rachel Martin]

It's not. The chaos is permanent, perfect chaos, and we're just gonna dance our way through it.

[Chris Fleming]

It's all about dancing in the Cheerios.

[Rachel Martin]

It's really the only antidote to despair in my book is, like, the little dance party, if you know what I mean.

[Chris Fleming]

I know what you mean.

[Rachel Martin]

I think you do.

[Chris Fleming]

Of course. I know exactly what you mean.

[Rachel Martin]

Mean. Chris Fleming. His new special is on hbo. You can check it out now. It is very worth your while. It's just been a complete joy. Thank you for doing this.

[Chris Fleming]

It's been such a joy. Thank you, Rachel. I'm sorry I got emotional. Thank you for talking to me.

[Rachel Martin]

I loved Chris's answer to the question, what's a disappointing experience that now feels like a blessing. And it made me wonder how some of you might answer that question as well. So if you are game, I would love it if you could record a voice memo of your answer and email it to wildcardpr.org Again, the question is, what's a disappointing experience that now feels like a blessing? Include your name and where you're from and it might end up in a future episode. This episode was produced by Alicia Zhang and Summer Tomad. It was edited by Dave Blanchard and mastered by Maggie Luthar. Wildcard's executive producer is Yolanda Sangweni and our theme music is by Ramtin Arabu. You can reach out to [e-mail] we're going to shuffle the deck and be

[Producer/Announcer]

back with more next week.

[Rachel Martin]

Talk to you then.