Dave Eggers - Wild Card with Rachel Martin

Loading summary

Transcript411 lines

[00:00]
NPR Sponsor Announcer
This message comes from NPR sponsor Carvana. Your time is worth more than a waiting game. Carvana gives you a transparent offer for your car in minutes and picks it up from your door. Sell your car today@carvana.com pickup fees may apply.
[00:16]
Rachel Martin
What is something you want younger generations to understand?
[00:19]
Dave Eggers
This is the first time in history when a whole generation is being told or tempted to have a machine right for them. But I say, like you are one of one unprecedented in the history of human evolution. There's only one of you. So to give your voice to a machine, to say, speak for me, I'm going to be silent, is such a crime against yourself.
[00:43]
Rachel Martin
I'm Rachel Martin, and this is Wild Card, the show where cards control the conversation. Each week my guest answers questions about their life, questions pulled from a deck of cards. They're allowed to skip one question and to flip one question back on me. My guest this week is author Dave Eggers.
[01:01]
Dave Eggers
Even your roughest dress, even your most disjointed seeming thoughts are going to be valid and your voice is essential. The human chorus is incomplete without your voice.
[01:12]
Rachel Martin
He was thrust into the public eye in the year 2000 when he published his award winning memoir, A Heartbreaking Work of Staggering Genius. He went on to become one of the most successful writers in his generation. He is also a visual artist and his newest book is an epic story about friendship, art and the compromises necessary for both. It's called Contrapposto. And I'm so very happy to welcome Dave Eggers to Wildcard.
[01:36]
Interviewer
Hi.
[01:37]
Dave Eggers
Hey. Thanks for having me.
[01:40]
Interviewer
Round one memories. First three cards you choose. 1, 2 or 3?
[01:45]
Dave Eggers
3. 3.
[01:48]
Interviewer
Where would you go to feel safe as a kid?
[01:51]
Dave Eggers
Oh, geez.
[01:55]
I will say, just because we're talking about art.
[01:58]
In high school, it was the with
[02:01]
Mr. Hortonus, our art teacher. I was a very awkward freshman and
[02:06]
sophomore, covered in zits, not at all comfortable in my body and very unsure about everything. But he.
[02:16]
I loved the art classes I took. And then Hort, we called him Hort for short.
[02:21]
I've never done that before.
[02:22]
Terrible rhyme.
[02:23]
But Hort gave me like a corner of this art room to just set up. And it was not an orthodox thing. I just had a little corner and I had my own paint and canvases and could be there any period of the day, lunch, you know, whenever. I just wanted to be somewhere alone and have a safe space, I guess. And so I don't, you know, I
[02:44]
look back and think about. That was pretty radical actually, to give
[02:47]
me a corner, a permanent corner of a room.
[02:50]
Interviewer
Either he thought you were exceptionally talented or that you just kind of needed a safe space.
[02:57]
Dave Eggers
You know, I'd always drawn since I
[02:58]
was really young, and so, yeah, he
[03:01]
was really encouraging, and I took to
[03:04]
oil painting kind of early and.
[03:07]
Yeah, and then I think that, you know, teachers see things that very few other people or adults don't always see.
[03:13]
Teachers see very quickly what this person needs, what that kid needs, you know, and especially if, you know, if you
[03:20]
see a kid enter a space like
[03:22]
we do at 826Valencia, and you know that they belong there and that this is really their haven, then you have
[03:28]
to carve out space for them.
[03:30]
Interviewer
Yeah, we should just say 826 Valencia is this wonderful nonprofit that's become national where you're encouraging kids writing in the arts and doing a lot of mentorship. What can you describe the feeling in that place?
[03:44]
Dave Eggers
The smells first? Because it's turpentine and oil paint and chalk and charcoal and glue. And so it's really. This was. There were a lot of windows that opened, thank God, because the art school realm is all about the smells first. Like, but even before what you see, before the paintings, before the drawings, before anything, the smell assaults you. But you get, for all of us that came up through art school, like, that's our comfort smell, you know, like, it's this incredibly pungent, super, super toxic mix of things that, you know, after a while, I guess I use nausea. I mean, who knows what nerve damage it did to all of us.
[04:28]
Interviewer
Were you writing simultaneously? I mean, when did writing become more of the artistic centerpiece for you?
[04:34]
Dave Eggers
It was those two things always for me. So from first grade on, when I had a teacher named Mrs. Wright that
[04:41]
had us write a book, write and illustrate a book that was. It was. You know, I drew all the pictures. We bound the book with yarn.
[04:49]
You know, I still have this book today.
[04:53]
It was always the two things together that I couldn't really do one without the other, and they balanced each other in a way. And so I don't think I've ever really had a period of time when I wasn't doing writing and drawing in some way.
[05:07]
Interviewer
You need the physicality to trigger your imagination. I mean, do you physically need one for the other? Like, you can't.
[05:14]
Dave Eggers
It feels like I do. You know, it feels like I have to get out of my brain.
[05:18]
And drawing really does.
[05:19]
It's like you're not really thinking much. The choices are very sort of just
[05:24]
physiological that you're making. So it's like, it's a whole different kind of process than the sort of like hyper brain driven writing that you have to do while writing. So after I used to, after especially a tough day writing or writing about tough subject matter as a journalist, I would spend the later part of the night just drawing on the floor for hours to just kind of cleanse my brain, I guess.
[05:52]
Interviewer
Yeah, I get that. Next three.
[05:56]
Dave Eggers
I'll go with one.
[05:57]
Interviewer
Yeah. What's an experience from childhood when you realized your parents were only human?
[06:07]
Dave Eggers
Oh, boy. Well, I had a. My mom was.
[06:19]
She was like the gentlest person, but
[06:21]
also tough as nails. And so I just remember always, like
[06:25]
being in the kitchen when she was cutting things or cooking and she would cut, you know, straight halfway through a finger or burn herself and just, you
[06:37]
know, barely acknowledge it. Like, you know, there's like that old
[06:40]
Dan Aykroyd skit on SNL where he's
[06:43]
playing Julia Child in the Blood is
[06:45]
Rachel Martin
going everywhere poly Python style.
[06:47]
Dave Eggers
Yes.
[06:47]
Yeah. And I sort of remember it being like almost that extreme. And she would just sort of wrap it up in paper towel and move on.
[06:55]
And so she was.
[06:57]
Interviewer
That doesn't sound very human at all. That sounds superhuman.
[06:59]
Dave Eggers
Yeah. I mean, but, you know, I think it was that sort of sense that she could be, you know, she bled
[07:06]
like any other human, but just kind of moving on with it. There was never any, you know, there was really very little acknowledgement of pain or wounds or hospital.
[07:19]
I mean, none of that stuff.
[07:20]
I mean, it was.
[07:21]
Interviewer
Was that a general skepticism of like.
[07:23]
Dave Eggers
No, not at all. I think it was just like, I didn't miss a day of school till college either. You know, that was the era where
[07:31]
unless you were maimed or like really, like, you know, not breathing, you went to school. You know, this is Chicago in the 70s and 80s. There were no days off. There was no, you know, acknowledgement of human frailty, which I'm kind of for.
[07:49]
I sort of think like that's the
[07:51]
way to do it. It's just like, you go to school,
[07:53]
you get your perfect attendance record, you,
[07:56]
you honor the teachers that are trying to, you know, convey something to you on a steady basis, and you show up.
[08:04]
Interviewer
Yeah. How about your dad?
[08:08]
Dave Eggers
Same question.
[08:09]
Rachel Martin
Yeah.
[08:10]
Interviewer
Did he show a lot of human frailty? Did you put him on a pedestal to the point where it was helpful to see him be human?
[08:18]
Dave Eggers
I mean, well, he was quite human and I. That's a good question. Yeah, there was. It was not a kind of a
[08:33]
thing where anyone was on a pedestal. I don't even know if there were pedestals in the 70s. It just felt like we all were like, you know, we were very.
[08:48]
You know, we just all spent most
[08:50]
of our time in one room, in the living room. And that's when you did your tv. You did your homework on the shag rug in front of the television that was playing Rockford Files or Mork and Mindy. And everybody was in the same room and everyone was smoking. And it was just like this really incredibly pungent, rich sort of human melange. And so there was never any illusion that we weren't all human. I think that we were so human. There's a great Salbello quote where he
[09:24]
needs to periodically take a humanity bath when he feels like he's too in
[09:29]
his head or too divorced from the world around him. He has to go out in the city, especially Chicago, where he was from, and take a humanity path. And I ride the L. I use that phrase a lot.
[09:42]
Interviewer
Okay, last one in this round. One, Two or three?
[09:45]
Dave Eggers
Oh, I'll try two this time.
[09:47]
Interviewer
Two. When's the time you realized you were on the right path?
[09:56]
Dave Eggers
So I've been going through old papers lately, and I was always encouraged by art teachers and then and my English teachers. But when I was a junior in high school and I found this paper last week, I've been looking for it forever, and it was a little different than I thought. But my junior year English teacher, Mr. Kreisch, who had like the, you know,
[10:20]
the Platonic ideal of the English teacher with the patches on the corduroy jacket,
[10:25]
with the leather patches and the glasses and the salt and pepper hair and the gray mustache, and he knew everything, and he was teaching us, you know, Macbeth. And I used to go bring to school every day a copy of as
[10:40]
they Lay Dying by Faulkner to see if he would notice that I was reading off the list. You know, he wanted to be acknowledged
[10:47]
Interviewer
as like an uber reader, intellectual guy,
[10:50]
Dave Eggers
did not understand a word of this book, not one sentence.
[10:54]
But I brought it every day, thinking he might notice.
[10:57]
But I wrote a paper about. And he wrote at the bottom, you know, sure hope you become a writer, and some other things. But to me, you know, we didn't have any writers in my family or
[11:11]
anyone we knew or anyone we knew who knew anyone.
[11:15]
There was no tie to that as a life. So I'd never heard the word writer as a job.
[11:22]
Interviewer
Right?
[11:22]
Dave Eggers
Yeah. And so, you know, it's one of those things where a teacher tells you that somebody that you respect that much
[11:29]
and knows that much, even you know,
[11:32]
it was probably 11 years after that
[11:35]
when I was like, really living as a writer. But in those 11 years, with whatever
[11:41]
kind of discouragement or hurdles I had or whatever, or anybody that said you
[11:47]
should not be a writer, which definitely happened a few times, I was always had that in my back pocket that Mr. Kreisch, who I thought knew everything, and I do believe he, he said this was an option for me, You
[12:06]
NPR Up First Announcer
know, Every day on Up First, NPR's Golden Globe nominated morning news podcast. We bring you three essential stories. the heart of each story are questions. What really happened? What really mattered? What happens next? At npr, we stand for your right to be curious and to follow the facts. Follow up first wherever you get your podcasts and start your day knowing what matters and why.
[12:34]
Interviewer
Before we start round two, let's step out of the game and talk about your new book. It is called Contrapposto. I mean, we were speaking earlier about how you have needed the visual arts, painting and drawing in tandem to writing as long as you can remember. But is this the first book that you have written that marries the two?
[12:54]
Dave Eggers
Yeah, it's been on my mind for probably 20 years and I can't believe it took this long for it to come together. It doesn't make any sense because it's been, you know, these are themes that I care a lot about.
[13:09]
And so, you know, now that I'm in my mid-30s, it feels really weird that it took like, I feel like I'm almost too old to talk about these themes. But, yeah, it was a long time coming.
[13:23]
Sometimes these books gestate for a long, long time.
[13:25]
So I've been taking notes for forever, I mean, really 20 years about who
[13:32]
these characters would be and sort of their lives. There's two Cricket and Olympia, these friends from childhood.
[13:38]
And they sort of weave in and out of the art world and weave
[13:43]
in and out of each other's lives for 68 years, I think. Yeah, I'm trying to do this math. I keep getting it a little one.
[13:50]
Yeah.
[13:51]
But it starts when they're eight and ends when they're 74.
[13:54]
Interviewer
That's lovely. It's a beautiful look, like I said, of friendship and creative pursuits. I looked up Contrapposto because it actually does mean it's a kind of, it's a way to pose. Right. The word itself.
[14:12]
Dave Eggers
Yeah. If you look at like the most
[14:14]
famous example is Michelangelo's David is like a classic example of a Contrapposto pose, which is sort of imbalanced. The weight is on one Leg, maybe
[14:27]
your hips are going one way and
[14:29]
your shoulders are going the other way.
[14:30]
Interviewer
And it doesn't look comfortable, let's be clear. Yeah, yeah.
[14:32]
Dave Eggers
I mean, but it's like a sort of a balanced imbalance, let's say. So instead of having a stock still,
[14:39]
kind of, you know, rigid pose, which would, you know, had preceded the contraposto pose, suddenly artists started using this, especially in sculpture, because it was more interesting. And you'd have a twist of the hips and a twist of the shoulders, and you'd have infinitely more interesting and I think more truthful kind of human poses at that point. So I love the word.
[15:03]
You learn it in art school.
[15:06]
And definitely whenever you do life drawing, like drawing from a live model, everything is contrapposto. You know, that's so.
[15:13]
And I think it. It accurately kind of adheres to Cricket and Olympia because they're imbalanced, but sort of balanced together, sort of entwined and, you know, they can't ever be.
[15:29]
Well, they do come apart a lot,
[15:31]
but together there's like this weird awkward balance between them.
[15:34]
Interviewer
Let's say there are a lot of scenes in the book of people posing enough. Of artists either Cricket or other of his peers drawing or painting live models. Is that. And you're very specific about writing what that experience is like, both being the artist, sort of the voyeur in this very intimate dynamic, and being in being the person who was gazed upon. And I just found those to be such interesting scenes.
[16:12]
Dave Eggers
Right, thank you.
[16:13]
Yeah, I mean, I started doing life drawing as a kid, like at 14, I guess, go down to Chicago and take classes. And so that Cricket has that same experience.
[16:25]
There's a few things that are borrowed from my own childhood, but life drawing is so startling.
[16:31]
Like, you get all your material ready and your charcoal and your paper and everything, and then just a stranger walks in, drops a robe. And it could be somebody who's. You might be a teenager and the model is a 72 year old woman or a 58 year old man. And it's so intimate. But so, I mean, for two minutes
[16:56]
you're shocked by the nudity in front of you. And then it becomes a body and then it becomes a task, you know,
[17:02]
to sort of get it right. And then it goes into some other mode where you're just kind of like awakened to like the incredible beauty of the human form at any age. You know, I remember being young when. And you think, oh, somebody in their 50s is gonna be some like, prune, like wrinkled, decrepit, whatever, you know, shell of a human. And then this vibrant human is in front of you and his skin is aglow and he's confident and strong and doing all of these interesting poses. It becomes really affirming, I think. And you get to. There's an intimacy and a wisdom that comes from that that I would recommend everybody take a life drawing class like tomorrow.
[17:51]
Interviewer
So my take on the art world after reading your book is that it's not a very nice place. You can disagree and you can reject that impression, but it just. The story is about it just seemingly all this judgment. You're continuously just putting your soul on a canvas and awaiting judgment from other people who will deem whether or not this is a thing that you can then commercialize and thereby be a successful artist who can feed yourself or not. And that just seems awful
[18:34]
Dave Eggers
in visual art especially. Well, in any art form. It really should be. If you've chosen to do that, you have made a choice to be or ostensibly be among joyful, anarchic, rule breaking, happy jesters, let's say. And then sometimes when a mean or competitive or cruel element enters that halcyon environment, it's so strange. And so there's a moment or two where cricket gets exposed to like the nasty side or the competitive or the
[19:13]
cannibalistic side of the art world, where a bunch of people are kind of
[19:18]
clawing on top of each other to get to some other place and that
[19:22]
Interviewer
literally appropriating their art to make something that they can make money off of.
[19:28]
Dave Eggers
Yeah, it's. I never understood that part of it because. And I do always, whenever I advise,
[19:36]
like, you know, young people going into that field, I said, you know, if
[19:40]
you ever find yourself in an MFA program or anywhere where it's competitive and
[19:46]
it feels like cutthroat, then you have to flee because there's.
[19:50]
There's no. No good can come from that. And I love the communities of artists that come up together, sort of supporting each other. Right. So groups of artists like the Impressionists, for example, I was always obsessed with this the way that the seven or eight main Impressionists that were part of all the shows, they put on their own shows apart from this salon system. And they were always there for each other.
[20:13]
So if, like Morisot has a show,
[20:14]
Degas, everybody else shows up for her. And we've heard of all of these Impressionists because they stuck together and because they lifted each other up. But had they all been competitive with each other, only one or two of
[20:29]
those folks would have survived.
[20:31]
So this sort of idea of getting yourself in a community of supportive but also challenging each other sort of artists is so key. I always tell any groups of young people in college or high school like, these are your people, this is your tribe. Support each other. If you think anyone in this room is your competitor, then you are grossly mistaken. You've been completely misinformed. These are your allies, these are your,
[20:58]
you know,
[21:02]
these are your champions, these are your peers. And you're only gonna make it if
[21:08]
you come up together, if you support each other.
[21:11]
And so the sooner you learn that and if you can live that, then
[21:15]
it can be a really joyful life. But you do have to really get as far away as possible from any sort of atmosphere where it's otherwise where if your success means my failure, that kind of idea, that zero sum idea that you do find all over the place, especially sometimes in college environments, let's say. And. But it really, if you're not doing it and you're not enjoying it, you
[21:47]
might as well do something else.
[21:48]
Dig ditches like do something else. If you're not going to enjoy something that's so harmless and inherently, you know, the entire point of doing it is beauty and joy and, you know, taking and giving the pleasures of the world.
[22:27]
Interviewer
Round 2. Dave Eggers insights 1, 2 or 3?
[22:31]
Dave Eggers
3.
[22:32]
3.
[22:34]
Interviewer
Do you take life as it comes or do you plan for all outcomes?
[22:40]
Dave Eggers
Can't you do both?
[22:42]
You know, like I always feel like.
[22:44]
Interviewer
Sure you can.
[22:45]
Dave Eggers
Sometimes these dichotomies are.
[22:48]
Interviewer
They're good for the cards, Dave.
[22:50]
Dave Eggers
I guess so.
[22:52]
Interviewer
But you are not naturally one or the other.
[22:55]
Dave Eggers
Well, I have a to do list that I write every couple days. So there's like a planning involved there. Right.
[23:02]
Interviewer
Great.
[23:03]
Dave Eggers
But like I think as an example, when I travel, my preferred way of travel is like a plane ticket to
[23:11]
a place, but not even I don't know where I'm staying that night. So that's.
[23:15]
Interviewer
Oh, that is way too many things.
[23:17]
Dave Eggers
And that's how I traveled for years and years. And I would just sort of walk
[23:21]
until I found a place to stay
[23:23]
and then I'd stay there.
[23:24]
And that's not the way you travel with your family.
[23:28]
Right.
[23:28]
Interviewer
Don't you have kids?
[23:29]
Dave Eggers
Yeah.
[23:30]
So when the four of us and my wife Vandela, who's a novelist too, we work differently and also plan differently.
[23:38]
So she's very.
[23:39]
Interviewer
She makes sure there is lodging.
[23:41]
Dave Eggers
Yeah, she's a very responsible human being. And so it's a little bit different
[23:48]
to travel with your kids that way, but even so you can Allow for, like. I went to Indonesia with my son about, you know, six months ago. We had a little bit of a plan.
[24:00]
We wanted to see the Komodo dragons, which, of course, you want to see the Komodo dragons before you die.
[24:05]
And our plan was upended for a lot of reasons, but. So we kind of made up the day every time and just kind of picked a place on the map and then rode a scooter to it and hid from the monsoon rains and then get back on it and go somewhere else and then meet somebody that had an idea to go, you know? And so I think that giving yourself up to chance whenever you can, to
[24:30]
me, that's the point of travel. It's just like the unexpected. But I don't know why I was answering your question in the realm of travel, but it came to mind, I think.
[24:39]
Interviewer
Does that apply to your actual life, though, beyond travel, like, just letting things happen?
[24:44]
Dave Eggers
Yeah. I'm not really good at, like, you know, like, having a whole week planned.
[24:49]
This is really.
[24:50]
That's. To me, I feel just trapped, you know? So to have one day planned is
[24:58]
I have to rest. The next day, when I have, like, a day, it's like one thing after another. I'm like, oh, tomorrow I just gotta rest from all of that, because. Yeah, I don't really.
[25:10]
Interviewer
Yeah, it's too much orchestration. Yeah, I get it. Okay. One, two or three?
[25:16]
Dave Eggers
One.
[25:17]
Interviewer
Come on. How much do you rely on the validation of others?
[25:23]
Dave Eggers
It depends on who those others are. So with a book, it's gonna sound like it. Hard to believe, but when I send
[25:33]
a book, show a book to Vandela, my wife, if she says it works, I'm done. I don't seek any other people's validation. It's really.
[25:43]
Honestly, one reader that understands it really well is plenty.
[25:47]
That's all.
[25:48]
NPR Shortwave Announcer
For real?
[25:48]
Dave Eggers
Plenty.
[25:48]
Especially a valued reader.
[25:50]
Interviewer
When you send it out into the world, if no one likes it, you're like, whatever.
[25:55]
Dave Eggers
But usually if no one likes it, then even the trusted readers haven't liked it.
[26:00]
So it's like you lie to yourself sometimes if you release something that you
[26:05]
know isn't its best self. And sometimes you get a little bit impatient and you release something.
[26:12]
Or every so often, there's a book that just has a much smaller readership
[26:16]
and it's only meant for a few. And so. And that's still as valid.
[26:22]
But I will say that once that small group of readers or one or two says I, you know, we talk about it, and it seems like it worked. On whatever I wanted to accomplish worked for them. Then I'd tune out everything else.
[26:38]
Like, I definitely don't need.
[26:41]
I mean, I never read a review.
[26:42]
I don't need anything else. And then the fun is meeting individual readers at, like, a bookstore in Rapid City, and you meet somebody there that really understood it, and you're just talking to them. It's like, that's just gravy on top of it.
[26:59]
Interviewer
I wonder, because it was like a tidal wave of affirmation and validation after your 2000 memoir. Did that do more harm than good, that overwhelm of validation?
[27:13]
Dave Eggers
Well, that book was supposed to be a very small book. The first run was 5,000 copies, I think.
[27:19]
So nobody expected anybody to read that thing.
[27:22]
And so it was a surprise, for sure. So sometimes you write something for a small audience, which I did.
[27:31]
And then unexpectedly, you have a larger audience. And so. And then, you know, you write a book like that. I figured it would be only the
[27:39]
readers were going to be 29.
[27:41]
Like I was 29. And then you see people of all ages in front of you, and you're at a bookstore and there's people in their 80s.
[27:46]
And it was a shock.
[27:48]
And it took me a while to adjust to that, a larger readership, because I'd been in the indie magazine world and comics world and stuff, and so. But you do have to just kind of know that it's completely out of your hands. You never know. You never know what's going to connect with a larger audience. Sometimes I felt for sure that something would be, you know, in the zeitgeist.
[28:13]
Yeah, yeah. And then crickets.
[28:16]
And so.
[28:17]
Oh, there we go. Crickets. And then other times, something. But I think that that's kind of
[28:21]
the beauty of it.
[28:22]
You can't engineer it. You can't ever predict it, and.
[28:26]
Interviewer
Which is why you should alchemy cater to it, you know, because it's.
[28:29]
Dave Eggers
You can't even try. There's no point. And so all you can do is
[28:33]
try to do the thing that.
[28:34]
Interviewer
That.
[28:35]
Dave Eggers
That you're set out to do that and within the. The boundaries of your own goals. And then.
[28:42]
Then there's an alchemy that happens between a.
[28:45]
A book and a. And a reader that.
[28:47]
And they interpret it or see it a different way than you might have, but they might get something out of it that you didn't have in mind. And you can't question it, and you definitely can't ever predict or
[29:02]
Interviewer
to it or for it. Yeah, right. One, two, or three.
[29:08]
Dave Eggers
Oh, two.
[29:09]
Interviewer
Two. What feels unreachable to you?
[29:15]
Dave Eggers
Surfing? Let's say I once every couple of years. Once every couple of years. I mean, I learned to surf in Mexico. The water was very warm and I thought I was like master surfer back
[29:29]
when I was in my 20s. I was at best like a very, very low beginner.
[29:35]
But to me it was just like pure heaven. And then you get older and you think you can keep doing it. And especially in the frozen waters up in San Francisco. And that's the most humbling thing that
[29:51]
a human can experience is like you
[29:53]
cannot even get past the breakers to surf. You almost die getting 50ft out and you think like, how did these? And then you'll see some 75 year old guy with extra pounds on him and just popping right up there. And so I have such respect for surfers, especially the older ones that do it so elegantly. So to me. And I, you know, I'm out and about on the waterfront a lot in San Francisco and.
[30:26]
Interviewer
Where. Like Ocean Beach.
[30:28]
Dave Eggers
Where?
[30:29]
Ocean beach, but also like Mavericks, Fort Point.
[30:31]
Interviewer
Oh, for.
[30:32]
Dave Eggers
No. I mean, I've seen Mavericks, but yeah, good lord, I would definitely die en route to Mavericks. That would be the end of me.
[30:42]
But you know, like Fort Point, there's a little surf area right under the Golden Gate Bridge and my office is right under the bridge. I work on a little sailboat, so I'm just sort of on the water all the time. And seeing those guys get up and avoid all of these rocks everywhere and certain death every day is very humbling.
[31:04]
So to me, that's what immediately comes to mind as the. As unreachable. I don't know if that's a insight
[31:11]
Interviewer
or that is an insight. I think that sounds like a thing that you almost prefer to keep as unreachable. It's a nice thing to have something like that in your life that you're.
[31:22]
Dave Eggers
No, I would like to be able to.
[31:23]
Interviewer
Oh, you would? Okay.
[31:24]
Dave Eggers
Yeah. I'm so jealous.
[31:27]
I really want to be out there.
[31:36]
Progressive Insurance Announcer
This message comes from Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it@progressive.com, progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.
[31:55]
NPR Sponsor Announcer
This message comes from thumbtack Recommendations can be great. Maybe someone recommended this podcast and here you are. But home projects are different. If a podcast isn't your thing, you lose a few minutes if you hire your cousin's neighbor to mount your tv, you might end up with a lopsided screen and wall damage. That's why thumbtack works. It matches people with top rated local pros with photos, reviews, and credentials all in one place. For your next home project, try thumbtack. Hire the right pro.
[32:25]
NPR Shortwave Announcer
Today, every story from shortwave NPR science podcast starts with a question like, why do we have nightmares? How does AI affect my energy? Bill at npr, we are here for your right to be curious about the world around you. Follow short wave wherever you get your podcasts, because the more you ask, the more interesting the world gets.
[32:54]
Interviewer
Beliefs last round. 1, 2 or 3?
[32:58]
Dave Eggers
1.
[33:00]
Interviewer
How do you think your life should be judged?
[33:03]
Dave Eggers
Oh, good Lord.
[33:04]
Interviewer
Yeah, I know.
[33:05]
Dave Eggers
Next.
[33:05]
Interviewer
Skip. You wanna skip it?
[33:07]
Dave Eggers
Yeah.
[33:07]
Interviewer
Skip.
[33:08]
Dave Eggers
Yeah.
[33:10]
Interviewer
Okay, let's do this one. Are you preoccupied?
[33:13]
Dave Eggers
I was brought up Catholic.
[33:14]
You can't ask that question. That's just a can of worms that it's got no answer.
[33:20]
Interviewer
We'll see if your Catholicism affects this one. Are you preoccupied with the past, the future, or neither,
[33:27]
Dave Eggers
really. I. Especially in my mid-30s now, like, I really have been able to
[33:35]
enjoy the
[33:36]
days, you know, and especially, like, on a day where you don't have to be anywhere. It's.
[33:48]
Interviewer
Have you always had that ability? Have you always had that.
[33:52]
Dave Eggers
No, no, no, no.
[33:53]
I think when you're young and ambitious,
[33:55]
you're thinking about, you know, I don't know, you're just more goal oriented, I guess, you know, and. And you want to see certain things
[34:06]
and do certain things at a certain pace and.
[34:09]
And then when you get a little older, you know, being able to.
[34:13]
I mean, it's so corny, but, like, you know, I plant fruit trees now. So to me, the present is just
[34:19]
like, seeing how my trees are doing. And I had a peach come in the other day and a tree I had. No.
[34:26]
I felt like this tree was dying and it was in a lot of trouble, and I was watering it and feeding it and everything, and I thought he was gonna die on me, and it wasn't the right place to plant it. And then two little peaches appeared yesterday, like, overnight from nothing. And then they're like the size of golf balls. And it's so shocking to me, but to be in a place where you're like, I'm gardening and obsessed with fruit trees is not where I thought I would be, you know, 10 years ago.
[34:57]
But I have no Buddhist sayings about
[35:01]
the present or sort of philosophical, kind
[35:03]
of like, organizing principles about it.
[35:06]
But I do know that the other day, my apricot tree. It was wind, and I was watering it, and the wind was making its arms sway. It has, like 12 arms, right? But he's swaying in this sort of weird ecstasy of the water, you know, and the wind, and he's like, accepting it all. And I was like, this is like such an intimate experience I'm having with an apricot tree. And you only do those things and you only have those really weird, surreal, beautiful moments. If, like, you really.
[35:43]
You gotta slow down a lot, you know, to sort of allow for that. And so as I've gotten older, I've gotten a lot slower, just about everything. And so, you know, my days are quite, quite slow and quite quiet, let's say, for the most part. So I guess that's about the present.
[36:05]
Interviewer
That's a beautiful answer.
[36:06]
Dave Eggers
I'm not gonna say being in the present or anything.
[36:08]
I know we're never supposed to use these expressions.
[36:10]
Interviewer
Hackneyed cliche. We're never saying. But I do like the idea of it.
[36:14]
Dave Eggers
But we know what it means.
[36:15]
Interviewer
We know. And I like the idea of you dancing in ecstasy with an apricot tree. That's a lovely image.
[36:20]
Dave Eggers
Well, I wasn't doing any dancing. Come on, let's not go that far. No, I mean the apricot tree. I would never myself dance with an apricot tree, but watching the apricot tree.
[36:32]
Interviewer
Let's check back and sit in 10 years, see where you are. Okay. Three new cards. One, two or three?
[36:40]
Dave Eggers
Three.
[36:41]
Rachel Martin
Three. How often do you think about death?
[36:45]
Dave Eggers
Oh, God.
[36:47]
I didn't realize.
[36:48]
Somehow I missed how heavy these questions were on your show. Boy, oh boy. I mean,
[36:58]
I don't very often, though. You know, I think I used to a lot more so.
[37:05]
It doesn't occur to me. I used to, like, again, like, while surfing or doing anything, always picturing the 12 different ways one could die in that situation. But it would just come and go. It wasn't like I was neurotic about it, but it would just be a
[37:21]
series of kind of presentations like, well, this could happen.
[37:25]
And, you know, this has happened before.
[37:27]
Interviewer
And also, we have to say your parents died when you were only like 20 or 21. So death had to.
[37:32]
Dave Eggers
Well, sure.
[37:33]
Interviewer
I mean, on the brain for a long time.
[37:36]
Dave Eggers
Yeah.
[37:36]
So.
[37:37]
But these days, no, I. You know, I've.
[37:41]
I'm.
[37:41]
I'm older than they were when they passed now. And somehow dodged any kind of major diseases so far. And so you do find yourself getting free of those. The burden of feeling like, okay, there's
[37:59]
something about the bloodline that is, you know, frail. And so.
[38:06]
But you live differently and you live a drastically different life.
[38:10]
And so here we are, you know, in my mid-30s. And so it's really.
[38:18]
It's so funny. I use that. I say things like that in front of kids and they have no idea.
[38:22]
Interviewer
They're like, what?
[38:23]
Dave Eggers
I could be 35 or 70. They don't know. There's just no.
[38:28]
I don't know.
[38:29]
You're old. I mean, you're older than 18 after everybody. After 18. It's the same kind of category of old and decrepit. But. Yeah,
[38:41]
Interviewer
so not so much.
[38:43]
Dave Eggers
Not so much.
[38:44]
Interviewer
Yeah, no, yeah, I do. I've said this a lot, but my parents died. My mom was 60. My dad died at 74 just a couple years ago. And for my mom in particular, I'm always doing the death math, right? Like, oh, if I get to 60, awesome. I got, like eight years left. Basically, I'll die then.
[39:02]
Rachel Martin
And if I don't die, then it's all gravy.
[39:05]
Interviewer
It's all extra life that I didn't expect to have. And I don't know if that's healthy.
[39:11]
Dave Eggers
No, you gotta. I'm always looking for the people that
[39:14]
are 93 and doing great work still or out and about or musicians that
[39:19]
are, you know, doing their best work in their 80s. And I do know so many.
[39:24]
I collect these people all the time, really. You know, like.
[39:28]
Well, like Paul Simon's last album, I think is one of his two or
[39:31]
three best albums ever, Seven Psalms. And I think he was 82 when he made it. And so I'm always thinking of people that are sort of doing their best
[39:43]
work
[39:45]
and touring the world and all that stuff. I think it's inevitable when you want to look ahead and you feel. And you still feel youthful and not on the. You know, not any weaker, you know, than you were at any other point. I don't feel at all any less
[40:02]
strength than I did at 25 or 30. So.
[40:05]
But those folks.
[40:06]
And we're in such an incredible moment
[40:09]
where there are so many artists and writers working, doing their best work, and
[40:14]
it would make perfect sense that they
[40:16]
would do their best work at 70, 80. They've seen so much.
[40:22]
They're human libraries. They have wealth of experience. Of course, if they can sublimate it and make great art out of it, of course that would be, you know.
[40:34]
Of course they would have so much to say.
[40:37]
And it's just a matter of, like,
[40:38]
knowing that, you know, you should and that it's not your work is still valid or if not the most valid at that age.
[40:48]
And you see it a lot in
[40:50]
the visual arts world. You know, whether it was, like, Yayo
[40:54]
Kusama or Ruth Asawa or. You see so many artists. Faith Ringgold, like, all of these artists
[41:01]
that were really rediscovered or celebrated when they were older and their whole work
[41:09]
was reexamined or shown all over the world.
[41:14]
Of course, those people have the most to say, and of course, those retrospectives are the most dramatic and the most sort of affirming. And I'd love it when they have this career retrospective. But their new work is still just as bold and radical and weird as
[41:31]
their stuff when they were 25 and
[41:33]
usually better because they've, you know, there's,
[41:37]
Interviewer
like, wisdom in the weirdness.
[41:38]
Dave Eggers
Yeah, wisdom in the weirdness. There you go.
[41:41]
Title of your book.
[41:44]
Interviewer
Okay, last one. One, Two or three?
[41:49]
Dave Eggers
Three.
[41:49]
Interviewer
Three. What is something you want younger generations to understand?
[41:58]
Dave Eggers
Well, I'll go on my AI rant because I do this once a week with students.
[42:03]
And I was at a high school
[42:05]
class the other day, and when a teacher asked me, like, last words, I'm always like, well, listen, we're in this era where all of these. My kids are 17 and 20. I'm in high schools all the time. They're more tempted, and this is the first time in history when a whole generation is being told or tempted to
[42:24]
have a machine write for them to express themselves.
[42:28]
But I say, like, you are one of one unprecedented in the history of human evolution. There's only one of you, if your name is Asher, you know, so Asher, never been. There's never been you. There's never been you in ever. And there never will be another one of you. So to give your voice to a machine to say, speak for me, I'm going to be silent, and I'm going to tell a machine to express myself or to tell my narrative. It's such a crime against yourself. It's so dystopian. Beyond anything I could do in a
[43:01]
dystopian novel, and I did a lot
[43:03]
I never saw this coming, would be an entire generation tempted and too many
[43:08]
of them acquiescing to the silencing of their own voice in favor of a bland, unthinking machine to voice their souls.
[43:24]
I mean, what dystopian novelist would ever think that this was possible? But if you can tell them, even your roughest dress, even your most disjointed seeming thoughts are going to be valid. And your voice is essential. The human chorus is Incomplete without your voice. And I'm going to listen to whatever you say, even the rough drafts, whatever. I want those. I want to see it all.
[43:51]
Then
[43:54]
we can make sure that they're
[43:56]
heard and that they feel like there
[43:58]
are humans out there that want to hear that voice and not the machine processed voice.
[44:03]
So that's my advice.
[44:05]
Good lord, we're at a really scary time, you know, but every adult has to be that person. Every teacher, every parent has to be the one saying, do not do this. Your voice is the only thing that you have naturally. It's the one thing that nobody can replace. And so let's hear your truth.
[44:28]
Even if it's raw, even if it's
[44:30]
unpolished, even if it doesn't come in the five paragraph essay or whatever.
[44:34]
Like, let's.
[44:35]
Let's have it straight from you. So I love it when they hand write in class, which a lot of teachers are having their students do right now. And I love it when anything that
[44:46]
takes them away from processing it through or giving your voice to a machine.
[45:03]
Interviewer
Dave Eggers.
[45:04]
Rachel Martin
We end the show the same way
[45:05]
Interviewer
every time with a trip in our memory time machine. Okay. In the memory time machine, you revisit one moment from your past. It's not a moment you want to change anything about, but it is a moment you'd like to linger in a little longer. And ideally, it's something you'd like to share. What memory do you choose?
[45:28]
Dave Eggers
Anytime when I'm with my family, with my wife and kids, like, my daughter just got back from college.
[45:36]
Interviewer
She just got back from college.
[45:37]
Dave Eggers
Yeah, just for the summer. And that first moment when we're all four together again is just like I
[45:43]
would linger for centuries in that moment, just sitting around the table and talking and talking about her flight. It doesn't matter. So there, I mean, it's a. I don't.
[45:56]
It's not a super
[46:00]
unusual answer, I guess, but to me
[46:05]
you get to
[46:06]
really appreciate like, wow, okay.
[46:08]
There's something in the chemistry of the
[46:10]
four people that is just like, you know, unimprovable. And no matter what we're doing or what we're talking about, that sort of. It's like the most perfect jazz quartet of all time when like every, you know, you need all four of the
[46:28]
musicians to be there together, but without
[46:34]
any of them, it's fine, but not as good. And.
[46:37]
Kitchen table, kitchen table, fresh fruit. A long time ago, I designed a sort of an amoeba shaped table where you could.
[46:50]
And we had a friend make it out of butcher block and it's got a steel base and I wanted something that you could fit like eight people around with like, you know, kind of undulating shape and contraband. I don't really love right angles and hard angles all the time and everything minimalist and, and severe. So I love curves and I love organic shapes. And so we designed this shape and we've just been sort of. We all have our parts of the table.
[47:23]
Interviewer
Do you each have your own, like, inlet of the table?
[47:27]
Dave Eggers
Mm, 20 years now, or however long it's been. Yeah.
[47:32]
So I'm sure that there's, like, human
[47:34]
residue on each one of our inlets, you know, where our tummies have been
[47:38]
pressed against all that time. And, you know, and then there's like,
[47:42]
fresh lemons always in the front from the lemon tree that produces far more fruit than any human could ever conceive. I don't know why it has so
[47:50]
much fruit, but we always have 50 lemons on the table because the harvest never ends.
[47:58]
Interviewer
That's lovely.
[47:58]
Dave Eggers
Yeah, that's lovely.
[48:01]
Interviewer
I hope your kids keep coming home. Give them fresh fruit.
[48:05]
Dave Eggers
Yeah. There you go.
[48:05]
Interviewer
Yeah. Dave Eggers, it's been such a pleasure. You can read Dave's new book. It is called Contrapposto. It has just been so fun to do this. Thank you.
[48:26]
Dave Eggers
Thanks a lot, Rachel.
[48:27]
Good to see you.
[48:37]
Rachel Martin
If you like this episode, check out my conversation with George Saunders. George was equally reflective about his own path as a writer and what he has built through hard work and what
[48:47]
Interviewer
he is still reaching for.
[48:49]
Rachel Martin
This episode was produced by Cyring Vista and Summer Tomat. It was edited by Dave Blanchard and mastered by Joseph Yes. Wildcard's executive producer is Yolanda Singwin and our theme music is by Ramtin Arakloomi. You can reach out to us@wildcardpr.org we're going to shuffle the deck and be back with more next week. Talk to you then.
[49:13]
NPR Shortwave Announcer
Millions of people in the US get their flu shot each year. But a new scientific innovation could turn that routine into a one shot stop A universal flu vaccine, which would protect
[49:25]
Interviewer
not only against seasonal influenza, but also will prevent pandemic influenza.
[49:31]
NPR Shortwave Announcer
Learn about the revolution in fighting the flu on short wave. Listen in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

Summary6 min read

Wild Card with Rachel Martin

Episode: Dave Eggers on why using AI to speak for you "is such a crime against yourself"

Release Date: June 10, 2026
Host: Rachel Martin (NPR)
Guest: Dave Eggers, author and visual artist

Overview

In this deeply personal episode, Rachel Martin welcomes acclaimed author and visual artist Dave Eggers. Known for his candid reflections and multidisciplinary work, Eggers draws from his childhood, career, family, and the philosophy underlying both creative endeavors and daily life. The conversation explores the intersections of art and writing, the impact of mentorship, the dangers of surrendering creativity to artificial intelligence, the importance of authentic self-expression, the value of community, and finding joy and grounding in ordinary moments.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

On AI and Authentic Voice

[00:15, 41:58]

Eggers passionately warns against the rising temptation to use AI for personal expression, especially for young people:

“You are one of one unprecedented in the history of human evolution… So to give your voice to a machine, to say, speak for me, I’m going to be silent, is such a crime against yourself.” – Dave Eggers [00:18; 42:27]
He stresses the irreplaceable nature of each individual’s voice:

“…Even your roughest dress, even your most disjointed seeming thoughts are going to be valid. And your voice is essential. The human chorus is incomplete without your voice.” – Dave Eggers [01:00; 43:26]
He calls for adults to advocate strongly for authentic expression:

“Every adult has to be that person. Every teacher, every parent has to be the one saying, do not do this. Your voice is the only thing that you have naturally.” – Dave Eggers [44:05]

Early Art and Writing Experiences

[01:47–05:52]

Eggers shares memories of his high school art teacher, Mr. Hortonus, who gave him a permanent corner in the art room:

“That was pretty radical actually, to give me a corner, a permanent corner of a room.” – Dave Eggers [02:46]
Describes the formative sensory and emotional environment of art school:

“The smells first? Because it’s turpentine and oil paint and chalk and charcoal and glue… for all of us that came up through art school, like, that’s our comfort smell…” – Dave Eggers [03:44]
His dual identity as writer and artist began early, supported by teachers like Mrs. Wright in first grade:

“It was always the two things together that I couldn’t really do one without the other…” – Dave Eggers [04:52]

The Impact of Mentors and Teachers

[06:06–12:05]

Eggers recalls the subtle, tough resilience of his mother and the ordinary humanity of his parents, connecting this to a larger cultural era of perseverance.
He highlights the transformative validation from his English teacher, Mr. Kreisch:

“My junior year English teacher... wrote at the bottom [of my essay], ‘sure hope you become a writer.’ ...I always had that in my back pocket.” – Dave Eggers [11:11]

Art, Friendship, and Contrapposto

[12:33–22:26]

Eggers discusses his new book, Contrapposto, and how it brings together his passions for the visual arts and writing.
Explains the concept of “contrapposto” as both an art term (a balanced imbalance in pose, as in Michelangelo’s David) and a metaphor for enduring, evolving friendship:

“They’re imbalanced, but sort of balanced together... there’s like this weird awkward balance between them.” – Dave Eggers [15:13]
Offers behind-the-scenes glimpses into life drawing classes and the lessons in vulnerability and beauty:

“There’s an intimacy and a wisdom that comes from that that I would recommend everybody take a life drawing class like tomorrow.” – Dave Eggers [17:02]
Explores the competitive versus communal spirit in the art world:

“If you ever find yourself in an MFA program or anywhere where it’s competitive and it feels like cutthroat, then you have to flee... The groups of artists that come up together... lifted each other up.” – Dave Eggers [19:35]

Navigating Life: Planning, Validation, and the Unreachable

[22:26-31:36]

Eggers prefers a loose structure to life, embracing both planning and spontaneity, especially in travel.

“My preferred way of travel is like a plane ticket to a place, but not even I don’t know where I’m staying that night... Giving yourself up to chance... that’s the point of travel.” – Dave Eggers [23:02; 24:29]
On validation, he trusts a small circle’s feedback, especially his wife, Vandela.

“Honestly, one reader that understands it really well is plenty... I never read a review. I don’t need anything else.” – Dave Eggers [25:43; 26:40]
On the sense of the unreachable, Eggers humorously identifies surfing in cold Northern California:

“The most humbling thing that a human can experience is like you cannot even get past the breakers to surf. You almost die getting 50ft out...” – Dave Eggers [29:51]

Attitude Toward Time, Aging, and Death

[32:54–41:44]

Eggers is increasingly focused on being present—tending fruit trees and enjoying “quiet, slow” days:

“You only have those really weird, surreal, beautiful moments if, like, you really… you gotta slow down a lot.” – Dave Eggers [35:43]
Death is less of a preoccupation than it once was, perhaps due in part to surpassing his parents’ ages at their deaths:

“You do find yourself getting free of those… the burden of feeling like… there’s something about the bloodline that is... frail.” – Dave Eggers [37:59]
He celebrates older artists doing vital work, offering the phrase,

“Wisdom in the weirdness.” – Dave Eggers [41:38]

Memorable Moments and Quotes

On the necessity of personal creativity in the AI era:

“There never will be another one of you. So to give your voice to a machine to say, speak for me, I’m going to be silent…is such a crime against yourself.” – Dave Eggers [42:27]
On artistic community over competition:

“If you think anyone in this room is your competitor, then you are grossly mistaken. You've been completely misinformed. These are your allies, these are your...champions, these are your peers.” – Dave Eggers [20:58]
On fleeting, perfect moments with family:

“That first moment when we’re all four together again is just like I would linger for centuries in that moment... it’s like the most perfect jazz quartet of all time.” – Dave Eggers [45:27–46:28]
On reviewing:

“I never read a review. I don’t need anything else.” – Dave Eggers [26:40]

Timestamps for Important Segments

Origins of creative safe spaces: 01:47–05:52
Teachers as catalysts: 06:06–12:05
About Contrapposto (book, meaning, themes): 12:33–16:13
Life drawing & vulnerability: 16:13–17:51
Art & competition vs. community: 18:33–21:46
AI & the sanctity of one's voice: 00:15, 41:58–44:45
Validation & creative authenticity: 25:16–26:59
Slowing down and being present: 33:12–35:43
Family moments & memory: 45:27–47:57

Conclusion

Eggers’s conversation is a powerful reminder of the value of authentic self-expression, the deep influence of mentorship, and the beauty found in both creative process and the everyday. His critique of artificial intelligence as a surrogate for personal voice is especially urgent, encouraging both young people and those who guide them to fiercely guard their unique contribution to humanity's “chorus.”
The episode sparkles with humor, honest recollections, and a profound belief in connection—through art, family, and the messy, unreproducible act of simply being human.

Listen to the episode for more insights and to hear Dave Eggers in his own voice.

Loading summary

Transcript411 lines

[00:00]
NPR Sponsor Announcer
This message comes from NPR sponsor Carvana. Your time is worth more than a waiting game. Carvana gives you a transparent offer for your car in minutes and picks it up from your door. Sell your car today@carvana.com pickup fees may apply.
[00:16]
Rachel Martin
What is something you want younger generations to understand?
[00:19]
Dave Eggers
This is the first time in history when a whole generation is being told or tempted to have a machine right for them. But I say, like you are one of one unprecedented in the history of human evolution. There's only one of you. So to give your voice to a machine, to say, speak for me, I'm going to be silent, is such a crime against yourself.
[00:43]
Rachel Martin
I'm Rachel Martin, and this is Wild Card, the show where cards control the conversation. Each week my guest answers questions about their life, questions pulled from a deck of cards. They're allowed to skip one question and to flip one question back on me. My guest this week is author Dave Eggers.
[01:01]
Dave Eggers
Even your roughest dress, even your most disjointed seeming thoughts are going to be valid and your voice is essential. The human chorus is incomplete without your voice.
[01:12]
Rachel Martin
He was thrust into the public eye in the year 2000 when he published his award winning memoir, A Heartbreaking Work of Staggering Genius. He went on to become one of the most successful writers in his generation. He is also a visual artist and his newest book is an epic story about friendship, art and the compromises necessary for both. It's called Contrapposto. And I'm so very happy to welcome Dave Eggers to Wildcard.
[01:36]
Interviewer
Hi.
[01:37]
Dave Eggers
Hey. Thanks for having me.
[01:40]
Interviewer
Round one memories. First three cards you choose. 1, 2 or 3?
[01:45]
Dave Eggers
3. 3.
[01:48]
Interviewer
Where would you go to feel safe as a kid?
[01:51]
Dave Eggers
Oh, geez.
[01:55]
I will say, just because we're talking about art.
[01:58]
In high school, it was the with
[02:01]
Mr. Hortonus, our art teacher. I was a very awkward freshman and
[02:06]
sophomore, covered in zits, not at all comfortable in my body and very unsure about everything. But he.
[02:16]
I loved the art classes I took. And then Hort, we called him Hort for short.
[02:21]
I've never done that before.
[02:22]
Terrible rhyme.
[02:23]
But Hort gave me like a corner of this art room to just set up. And it was not an orthodox thing. I just had a little corner and I had my own paint and canvases and could be there any period of the day, lunch, you know, whenever. I just wanted to be somewhere alone and have a safe space, I guess. And so I don't, you know, I
[02:44]
look back and think about. That was pretty radical actually, to give
[02:47]
me a corner, a permanent corner of a room.
[02:50]
Interviewer
Either he thought you were exceptionally talented or that you just kind of needed a safe space.
[02:57]
Dave Eggers
You know, I'd always drawn since I
[02:58]
was really young, and so, yeah, he
[03:01]
was really encouraging, and I took to
[03:04]
oil painting kind of early and.
[03:07]
Yeah, and then I think that, you know, teachers see things that very few other people or adults don't always see.
[03:13]
Teachers see very quickly what this person needs, what that kid needs, you know, and especially if, you know, if you
[03:20]
see a kid enter a space like
[03:22]
we do at 826Valencia, and you know that they belong there and that this is really their haven, then you have
[03:28]
to carve out space for them.
[03:30]
Interviewer
Yeah, we should just say 826 Valencia is this wonderful nonprofit that's become national where you're encouraging kids writing in the arts and doing a lot of mentorship. What can you describe the feeling in that place?
[03:44]
Dave Eggers
The smells first? Because it's turpentine and oil paint and chalk and charcoal and glue. And so it's really. This was. There were a lot of windows that opened, thank God, because the art school realm is all about the smells first. Like, but even before what you see, before the paintings, before the drawings, before anything, the smell assaults you. But you get, for all of us that came up through art school, like, that's our comfort smell, you know, like, it's this incredibly pungent, super, super toxic mix of things that, you know, after a while, I guess I use nausea. I mean, who knows what nerve damage it did to all of us.
[04:28]
Interviewer
Were you writing simultaneously? I mean, when did writing become more of the artistic centerpiece for you?
[04:34]
Dave Eggers
It was those two things always for me. So from first grade on, when I had a teacher named Mrs. Wright that
[04:41]
had us write a book, write and illustrate a book that was. It was. You know, I drew all the pictures. We bound the book with yarn.
[04:49]
You know, I still have this book today.
[04:53]
It was always the two things together that I couldn't really do one without the other, and they balanced each other in a way. And so I don't think I've ever really had a period of time when I wasn't doing writing and drawing in some way.
[05:07]
Interviewer
You need the physicality to trigger your imagination. I mean, do you physically need one for the other? Like, you can't.
[05:14]
Dave Eggers
It feels like I do. You know, it feels like I have to get out of my brain.
[05:18]
And drawing really does.
[05:19]
It's like you're not really thinking much. The choices are very sort of just
[05:24]
physiological that you're making. So it's like, it's a whole different kind of process than the sort of like hyper brain driven writing that you have to do while writing. So after I used to, after especially a tough day writing or writing about tough subject matter as a journalist, I would spend the later part of the night just drawing on the floor for hours to just kind of cleanse my brain, I guess.
[05:52]
Interviewer
Yeah, I get that. Next three.
[05:56]
Dave Eggers
I'll go with one.
[05:57]
Interviewer
Yeah. What's an experience from childhood when you realized your parents were only human?
[06:07]
Dave Eggers
Oh, boy. Well, I had a. My mom was.
[06:19]
She was like the gentlest person, but
[06:21]
also tough as nails. And so I just remember always, like
[06:25]
being in the kitchen when she was cutting things or cooking and she would cut, you know, straight halfway through a finger or burn herself and just, you
[06:37]
know, barely acknowledge it. Like, you know, there's like that old
[06:40]
Dan Aykroyd skit on SNL where he's
[06:43]
playing Julia Child in the Blood is
[06:45]
Rachel Martin
going everywhere poly Python style.
[06:47]
Dave Eggers
Yes.
[06:47]
Yeah. And I sort of remember it being like almost that extreme. And she would just sort of wrap it up in paper towel and move on.
[06:55]
And so she was.
[06:57]
Interviewer
That doesn't sound very human at all. That sounds superhuman.
[06:59]
Dave Eggers
Yeah. I mean, but, you know, I think it was that sort of sense that she could be, you know, she bled
[07:06]
like any other human, but just kind of moving on with it. There was never any, you know, there was really very little acknowledgement of pain or wounds or hospital.
[07:19]
I mean, none of that stuff.
[07:20]
I mean, it was.
[07:21]
Interviewer
Was that a general skepticism of like.
[07:23]
Dave Eggers
No, not at all. I think it was just like, I didn't miss a day of school till college either. You know, that was the era where
[07:31]
unless you were maimed or like really, like, you know, not breathing, you went to school. You know, this is Chicago in the 70s and 80s. There were no days off. There was no, you know, acknowledgement of human frailty, which I'm kind of for.
[07:49]
I sort of think like that's the
[07:51]
way to do it. It's just like, you go to school,
[07:53]
you get your perfect attendance record, you,
[07:56]
you honor the teachers that are trying to, you know, convey something to you on a steady basis, and you show up.
[08:04]
Interviewer
Yeah. How about your dad?
[08:08]
Dave Eggers
Same question.
[08:09]
Rachel Martin
Yeah.
[08:10]
Interviewer
Did he show a lot of human frailty? Did you put him on a pedestal to the point where it was helpful to see him be human?
[08:18]
Dave Eggers
I mean, well, he was quite human and I. That's a good question. Yeah, there was. It was not a kind of a
[08:33]
thing where anyone was on a pedestal. I don't even know if there were pedestals in the 70s. It just felt like we all were like, you know, we were very.
[08:48]
You know, we just all spent most
[08:50]
of our time in one room, in the living room. And that's when you did your tv. You did your homework on the shag rug in front of the television that was playing Rockford Files or Mork and Mindy. And everybody was in the same room and everyone was smoking. And it was just like this really incredibly pungent, rich sort of human melange. And so there was never any illusion that we weren't all human. I think that we were so human. There's a great Salbello quote where he
[09:24]
needs to periodically take a humanity bath when he feels like he's too in
[09:29]
his head or too divorced from the world around him. He has to go out in the city, especially Chicago, where he was from, and take a humanity path. And I ride the L. I use that phrase a lot.
[09:42]
Interviewer
Okay, last one in this round. One, Two or three?
[09:45]
Dave Eggers
Oh, I'll try two this time.
[09:47]
Interviewer
Two. When's the time you realized you were on the right path?
[09:56]
Dave Eggers
So I've been going through old papers lately, and I was always encouraged by art teachers and then and my English teachers. But when I was a junior in high school and I found this paper last week, I've been looking for it forever, and it was a little different than I thought. But my junior year English teacher, Mr. Kreisch, who had like the, you know,
[10:20]
the Platonic ideal of the English teacher with the patches on the corduroy jacket,
[10:25]
with the leather patches and the glasses and the salt and pepper hair and the gray mustache, and he knew everything, and he was teaching us, you know, Macbeth. And I used to go bring to school every day a copy of as
[10:40]
they Lay Dying by Faulkner to see if he would notice that I was reading off the list. You know, he wanted to be acknowledged
[10:47]
Interviewer
as like an uber reader, intellectual guy,
[10:50]
Dave Eggers
did not understand a word of this book, not one sentence.
[10:54]
But I brought it every day, thinking he might notice.
[10:57]
But I wrote a paper about. And he wrote at the bottom, you know, sure hope you become a writer, and some other things. But to me, you know, we didn't have any writers in my family or
[11:11]
anyone we knew or anyone we knew who knew anyone.
[11:15]
There was no tie to that as a life. So I'd never heard the word writer as a job.
[11:22]
Interviewer
Right?
[11:22]
Dave Eggers
Yeah. And so, you know, it's one of those things where a teacher tells you that somebody that you respect that much
[11:29]
and knows that much, even you know,
[11:32]
it was probably 11 years after that
[11:35]
when I was like, really living as a writer. But in those 11 years, with whatever
[11:41]
kind of discouragement or hurdles I had or whatever, or anybody that said you
[11:47]
should not be a writer, which definitely happened a few times, I was always had that in my back pocket that Mr. Kreisch, who I thought knew everything, and I do believe he, he said this was an option for me, You
[12:06]
NPR Up First Announcer
know, Every day on Up First, NPR's Golden Globe nominated morning news podcast. We bring you three essential stories. the heart of each story are questions. What really happened? What really mattered? What happens next? At npr, we stand for your right to be curious and to follow the facts. Follow up first wherever you get your podcasts and start your day knowing what matters and why.
[12:34]
Interviewer
Before we start round two, let's step out of the game and talk about your new book. It is called Contrapposto. I mean, we were speaking earlier about how you have needed the visual arts, painting and drawing in tandem to writing as long as you can remember. But is this the first book that you have written that marries the two?
[12:54]
Dave Eggers
Yeah, it's been on my mind for probably 20 years and I can't believe it took this long for it to come together. It doesn't make any sense because it's been, you know, these are themes that I care a lot about.
[13:09]
And so, you know, now that I'm in my mid-30s, it feels really weird that it took like, I feel like I'm almost too old to talk about these themes. But, yeah, it was a long time coming.
[13:23]
Sometimes these books gestate for a long, long time.
[13:25]
So I've been taking notes for forever, I mean, really 20 years about who
[13:32]
these characters would be and sort of their lives. There's two Cricket and Olympia, these friends from childhood.
[13:38]
And they sort of weave in and out of the art world and weave
[13:43]
in and out of each other's lives for 68 years, I think. Yeah, I'm trying to do this math. I keep getting it a little one.
[13:50]
Yeah.
[13:51]
But it starts when they're eight and ends when they're 74.
[13:54]
Interviewer
That's lovely. It's a beautiful look, like I said, of friendship and creative pursuits. I looked up Contrapposto because it actually does mean it's a kind of, it's a way to pose. Right. The word itself.
[14:12]
Dave Eggers
Yeah. If you look at like the most
[14:14]
famous example is Michelangelo's David is like a classic example of a Contrapposto pose, which is sort of imbalanced. The weight is on one Leg, maybe
[14:27]
your hips are going one way and
[14:29]
your shoulders are going the other way.
[14:30]
Interviewer
And it doesn't look comfortable, let's be clear. Yeah, yeah.
[14:32]
Dave Eggers
I mean, but it's like a sort of a balanced imbalance, let's say. So instead of having a stock still,
[14:39]
kind of, you know, rigid pose, which would, you know, had preceded the contraposto pose, suddenly artists started using this, especially in sculpture, because it was more interesting. And you'd have a twist of the hips and a twist of the shoulders, and you'd have infinitely more interesting and I think more truthful kind of human poses at that point. So I love the word.
[15:03]
You learn it in art school.
[15:06]
And definitely whenever you do life drawing, like drawing from a live model, everything is contrapposto. You know, that's so.
[15:13]
And I think it. It accurately kind of adheres to Cricket and Olympia because they're imbalanced, but sort of balanced together, sort of entwined and, you know, they can't ever be.
[15:29]
Well, they do come apart a lot,
[15:31]
but together there's like this weird awkward balance between them.
[15:34]
Interviewer
Let's say there are a lot of scenes in the book of people posing enough. Of artists either Cricket or other of his peers drawing or painting live models. Is that. And you're very specific about writing what that experience is like, both being the artist, sort of the voyeur in this very intimate dynamic, and being in being the person who was gazed upon. And I just found those to be such interesting scenes.
[16:12]
Dave Eggers
Right, thank you.
[16:13]
Yeah, I mean, I started doing life drawing as a kid, like at 14, I guess, go down to Chicago and take classes. And so that Cricket has that same experience.
[16:25]
There's a few things that are borrowed from my own childhood, but life drawing is so startling.
[16:31]
Like, you get all your material ready and your charcoal and your paper and everything, and then just a stranger walks in, drops a robe. And it could be somebody who's. You might be a teenager and the model is a 72 year old woman or a 58 year old man. And it's so intimate. But so, I mean, for two minutes
[16:56]
you're shocked by the nudity in front of you. And then it becomes a body and then it becomes a task, you know,
[17:02]
to sort of get it right. And then it goes into some other mode where you're just kind of like awakened to like the incredible beauty of the human form at any age. You know, I remember being young when. And you think, oh, somebody in their 50s is gonna be some like, prune, like wrinkled, decrepit, whatever, you know, shell of a human. And then this vibrant human is in front of you and his skin is aglow and he's confident and strong and doing all of these interesting poses. It becomes really affirming, I think. And you get to. There's an intimacy and a wisdom that comes from that that I would recommend everybody take a life drawing class like tomorrow.
[17:51]
Interviewer
So my take on the art world after reading your book is that it's not a very nice place. You can disagree and you can reject that impression, but it just. The story is about it just seemingly all this judgment. You're continuously just putting your soul on a canvas and awaiting judgment from other people who will deem whether or not this is a thing that you can then commercialize and thereby be a successful artist who can feed yourself or not. And that just seems awful
[18:34]
Dave Eggers
in visual art especially. Well, in any art form. It really should be. If you've chosen to do that, you have made a choice to be or ostensibly be among joyful, anarchic, rule breaking, happy jesters, let's say. And then sometimes when a mean or competitive or cruel element enters that halcyon environment, it's so strange. And so there's a moment or two where cricket gets exposed to like the nasty side or the competitive or the
[19:13]
cannibalistic side of the art world, where a bunch of people are kind of
[19:18]
clawing on top of each other to get to some other place and that
[19:22]
Interviewer
literally appropriating their art to make something that they can make money off of.
[19:28]
Dave Eggers
Yeah, it's. I never understood that part of it because. And I do always, whenever I advise,
[19:36]
like, you know, young people going into that field, I said, you know, if
[19:40]
you ever find yourself in an MFA program or anywhere where it's competitive and
[19:46]
it feels like cutthroat, then you have to flee because there's.
[19:50]
There's no. No good can come from that. And I love the communities of artists that come up together, sort of supporting each other. Right. So groups of artists like the Impressionists, for example, I was always obsessed with this the way that the seven or eight main Impressionists that were part of all the shows, they put on their own shows apart from this salon system. And they were always there for each other.
[20:13]
So if, like Morisot has a show,
[20:14]
Degas, everybody else shows up for her. And we've heard of all of these Impressionists because they stuck together and because they lifted each other up. But had they all been competitive with each other, only one or two of
[20:29]
those folks would have survived.
[20:31]
So this sort of idea of getting yourself in a community of supportive but also challenging each other sort of artists is so key. I always tell any groups of young people in college or high school like, these are your people, this is your tribe. Support each other. If you think anyone in this room is your competitor, then you are grossly mistaken. You've been completely misinformed. These are your allies, these are your,
[20:58]
you know,
[21:02]
these are your champions, these are your peers. And you're only gonna make it if
[21:08]
you come up together, if you support each other.
[21:11]
And so the sooner you learn that and if you can live that, then
[21:15]
it can be a really joyful life. But you do have to really get as far away as possible from any sort of atmosphere where it's otherwise where if your success means my failure, that kind of idea, that zero sum idea that you do find all over the place, especially sometimes in college environments, let's say. And. But it really, if you're not doing it and you're not enjoying it, you
[21:47]
might as well do something else.
[21:48]
Dig ditches like do something else. If you're not going to enjoy something that's so harmless and inherently, you know, the entire point of doing it is beauty and joy and, you know, taking and giving the pleasures of the world.
[22:27]
Interviewer
Round 2. Dave Eggers insights 1, 2 or 3?
[22:31]
Dave Eggers
3.
[22:32]
3.
[22:34]
Interviewer
Do you take life as it comes or do you plan for all outcomes?
[22:40]
Dave Eggers
Can't you do both?
[22:42]
You know, like I always feel like.
[22:44]
Interviewer
Sure you can.
[22:45]
Dave Eggers
Sometimes these dichotomies are.
[22:48]
Interviewer
They're good for the cards, Dave.
[22:50]
Dave Eggers
I guess so.
[22:52]
Interviewer
But you are not naturally one or the other.
[22:55]
Dave Eggers
Well, I have a to do list that I write every couple days. So there's like a planning involved there. Right.
[23:02]
Interviewer
Great.
[23:03]
Dave Eggers
But like I think as an example, when I travel, my preferred way of travel is like a plane ticket to
[23:11]
a place, but not even I don't know where I'm staying that night. So that's.
[23:15]
Interviewer
Oh, that is way too many things.
[23:17]
Dave Eggers
And that's how I traveled for years and years. And I would just sort of walk
[23:21]
until I found a place to stay
[23:23]
and then I'd stay there.
[23:24]
And that's not the way you travel with your family.
[23:28]
Right.
[23:28]
Interviewer
Don't you have kids?
[23:29]
Dave Eggers
Yeah.
[23:30]
So when the four of us and my wife Vandela, who's a novelist too, we work differently and also plan differently.
[23:38]
So she's very.
[23:39]
Interviewer
She makes sure there is lodging.
[23:41]
Dave Eggers
Yeah, she's a very responsible human being. And so it's a little bit different
[23:48]
to travel with your kids that way, but even so you can Allow for, like. I went to Indonesia with my son about, you know, six months ago. We had a little bit of a plan.
[24:00]
We wanted to see the Komodo dragons, which, of course, you want to see the Komodo dragons before you die.
[24:05]
And our plan was upended for a lot of reasons, but. So we kind of made up the day every time and just kind of picked a place on the map and then rode a scooter to it and hid from the monsoon rains and then get back on it and go somewhere else and then meet somebody that had an idea to go, you know? And so I think that giving yourself up to chance whenever you can, to
[24:30]
me, that's the point of travel. It's just like the unexpected. But I don't know why I was answering your question in the realm of travel, but it came to mind, I think.
[24:39]
Interviewer
Does that apply to your actual life, though, beyond travel, like, just letting things happen?
[24:44]
Dave Eggers
Yeah. I'm not really good at, like, you know, like, having a whole week planned.
[24:49]
This is really.
[24:50]
That's. To me, I feel just trapped, you know? So to have one day planned is
[24:58]
I have to rest. The next day, when I have, like, a day, it's like one thing after another. I'm like, oh, tomorrow I just gotta rest from all of that, because. Yeah, I don't really.
[25:10]
Interviewer
Yeah, it's too much orchestration. Yeah, I get it. Okay. One, two or three?
[25:16]
Dave Eggers
One.
[25:17]
Interviewer
Come on. How much do you rely on the validation of others?
[25:23]
Dave Eggers
It depends on who those others are. So with a book, it's gonna sound like it. Hard to believe, but when I send
[25:33]
a book, show a book to Vandela, my wife, if she says it works, I'm done. I don't seek any other people's validation. It's really.
[25:43]
Honestly, one reader that understands it really well is plenty.
[25:47]
That's all.
[25:48]
NPR Shortwave Announcer
For real?
[25:48]
Dave Eggers
Plenty.
[25:48]
Especially a valued reader.
[25:50]
Interviewer
When you send it out into the world, if no one likes it, you're like, whatever.
[25:55]
Dave Eggers
But usually if no one likes it, then even the trusted readers haven't liked it.
[26:00]
So it's like you lie to yourself sometimes if you release something that you
[26:05]
know isn't its best self. And sometimes you get a little bit impatient and you release something.
[26:12]
Or every so often, there's a book that just has a much smaller readership
[26:16]
and it's only meant for a few. And so. And that's still as valid.
[26:22]
But I will say that once that small group of readers or one or two says I, you know, we talk about it, and it seems like it worked. On whatever I wanted to accomplish worked for them. Then I'd tune out everything else.
[26:38]
Like, I definitely don't need.
[26:41]
I mean, I never read a review.
[26:42]
I don't need anything else. And then the fun is meeting individual readers at, like, a bookstore in Rapid City, and you meet somebody there that really understood it, and you're just talking to them. It's like, that's just gravy on top of it.
[26:59]
Interviewer
I wonder, because it was like a tidal wave of affirmation and validation after your 2000 memoir. Did that do more harm than good, that overwhelm of validation?
[27:13]
Dave Eggers
Well, that book was supposed to be a very small book. The first run was 5,000 copies, I think.
[27:19]
So nobody expected anybody to read that thing.
[27:22]
And so it was a surprise, for sure. So sometimes you write something for a small audience, which I did.
[27:31]
And then unexpectedly, you have a larger audience. And so. And then, you know, you write a book like that. I figured it would be only the
[27:39]
readers were going to be 29.
[27:41]
Like I was 29. And then you see people of all ages in front of you, and you're at a bookstore and there's people in their 80s.
[27:46]
And it was a shock.
[27:48]
And it took me a while to adjust to that, a larger readership, because I'd been in the indie magazine world and comics world and stuff, and so. But you do have to just kind of know that it's completely out of your hands. You never know. You never know what's going to connect with a larger audience. Sometimes I felt for sure that something would be, you know, in the zeitgeist.
[28:13]
Yeah, yeah. And then crickets.
[28:16]
And so.
[28:17]
Oh, there we go. Crickets. And then other times, something. But I think that that's kind of
[28:21]
the beauty of it.
[28:22]
You can't engineer it. You can't ever predict it, and.
[28:26]
Interviewer
Which is why you should alchemy cater to it, you know, because it's.
[28:29]
Dave Eggers
You can't even try. There's no point. And so all you can do is
[28:33]
try to do the thing that.
[28:34]
Interviewer
That.
[28:35]
Dave Eggers
That you're set out to do that and within the. The boundaries of your own goals. And then.
[28:42]
Then there's an alchemy that happens between a.
[28:45]
A book and a. And a reader that.
[28:47]
And they interpret it or see it a different way than you might have, but they might get something out of it that you didn't have in mind. And you can't question it, and you definitely can't ever predict or
[29:02]
Interviewer
to it or for it. Yeah, right. One, two, or three.
[29:08]
Dave Eggers
Oh, two.
[29:09]
Interviewer
Two. What feels unreachable to you?
[29:15]
Dave Eggers
Surfing? Let's say I once every couple of years. Once every couple of years. I mean, I learned to surf in Mexico. The water was very warm and I thought I was like master surfer back
[29:29]
when I was in my 20s. I was at best like a very, very low beginner.
[29:35]
But to me it was just like pure heaven. And then you get older and you think you can keep doing it. And especially in the frozen waters up in San Francisco. And that's the most humbling thing that
[29:51]
a human can experience is like you
[29:53]
cannot even get past the breakers to surf. You almost die getting 50ft out and you think like, how did these? And then you'll see some 75 year old guy with extra pounds on him and just popping right up there. And so I have such respect for surfers, especially the older ones that do it so elegantly. So to me. And I, you know, I'm out and about on the waterfront a lot in San Francisco and.
[30:26]
Interviewer
Where. Like Ocean Beach.
[30:28]
Dave Eggers
Where?
[30:29]
Ocean beach, but also like Mavericks, Fort Point.
[30:31]
Interviewer
Oh, for.
[30:32]
Dave Eggers
No. I mean, I've seen Mavericks, but yeah, good lord, I would definitely die en route to Mavericks. That would be the end of me.
[30:42]
But you know, like Fort Point, there's a little surf area right under the Golden Gate Bridge and my office is right under the bridge. I work on a little sailboat, so I'm just sort of on the water all the time. And seeing those guys get up and avoid all of these rocks everywhere and certain death every day is very humbling.
[31:04]
So to me, that's what immediately comes to mind as the. As unreachable. I don't know if that's a insight
[31:11]
Interviewer
or that is an insight. I think that sounds like a thing that you almost prefer to keep as unreachable. It's a nice thing to have something like that in your life that you're.
[31:22]
Dave Eggers
No, I would like to be able to.
[31:23]
Interviewer
Oh, you would? Okay.
[31:24]
Dave Eggers
Yeah. I'm so jealous.
[31:27]
I really want to be out there.
[31:36]
Progressive Insurance Announcer
This message comes from Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it@progressive.com, progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.
[31:55]
NPR Sponsor Announcer
This message comes from thumbtack Recommendations can be great. Maybe someone recommended this podcast and here you are. But home projects are different. If a podcast isn't your thing, you lose a few minutes if you hire your cousin's neighbor to mount your tv, you might end up with a lopsided screen and wall damage. That's why thumbtack works. It matches people with top rated local pros with photos, reviews, and credentials all in one place. For your next home project, try thumbtack. Hire the right pro.
[32:25]
NPR Shortwave Announcer
Today, every story from shortwave NPR science podcast starts with a question like, why do we have nightmares? How does AI affect my energy? Bill at npr, we are here for your right to be curious about the world around you. Follow short wave wherever you get your podcasts, because the more you ask, the more interesting the world gets.
[32:54]
Interviewer
Beliefs last round. 1, 2 or 3?
[32:58]
Dave Eggers
1.
[33:00]
Interviewer
How do you think your life should be judged?
[33:03]
Dave Eggers
Oh, good Lord.
[33:04]
Interviewer
Yeah, I know.
[33:05]
Dave Eggers
Next.
[33:05]
Interviewer
Skip. You wanna skip it?
[33:07]
Dave Eggers
Yeah.
[33:07]
Interviewer
Skip.
[33:08]
Dave Eggers
Yeah.
[33:10]
Interviewer
Okay, let's do this one. Are you preoccupied?
[33:13]
Dave Eggers
I was brought up Catholic.
[33:14]
You can't ask that question. That's just a can of worms that it's got no answer.
[33:20]
Interviewer
We'll see if your Catholicism affects this one. Are you preoccupied with the past, the future, or neither,
[33:27]
Dave Eggers
really. I. Especially in my mid-30s now, like, I really have been able to
[33:35]
enjoy the
[33:36]
days, you know, and especially, like, on a day where you don't have to be anywhere. It's.
[33:48]
Interviewer
Have you always had that ability? Have you always had that.
[33:52]
Dave Eggers
No, no, no, no.
[33:53]
I think when you're young and ambitious,
[33:55]
you're thinking about, you know, I don't know, you're just more goal oriented, I guess, you know, and. And you want to see certain things
[34:06]
and do certain things at a certain pace and.
[34:09]
And then when you get a little older, you know, being able to.
[34:13]
I mean, it's so corny, but, like, you know, I plant fruit trees now. So to me, the present is just
[34:19]
like, seeing how my trees are doing. And I had a peach come in the other day and a tree I had. No.
[34:26]
I felt like this tree was dying and it was in a lot of trouble, and I was watering it and feeding it and everything, and I thought he was gonna die on me, and it wasn't the right place to plant it. And then two little peaches appeared yesterday, like, overnight from nothing. And then they're like the size of golf balls. And it's so shocking to me, but to be in a place where you're like, I'm gardening and obsessed with fruit trees is not where I thought I would be, you know, 10 years ago.
[34:57]
But I have no Buddhist sayings about
[35:01]
the present or sort of philosophical, kind
[35:03]
of like, organizing principles about it.
[35:06]
But I do know that the other day, my apricot tree. It was wind, and I was watering it, and the wind was making its arms sway. It has, like 12 arms, right? But he's swaying in this sort of weird ecstasy of the water, you know, and the wind, and he's like, accepting it all. And I was like, this is like such an intimate experience I'm having with an apricot tree. And you only do those things and you only have those really weird, surreal, beautiful moments. If, like, you really.
[35:43]
You gotta slow down a lot, you know, to sort of allow for that. And so as I've gotten older, I've gotten a lot slower, just about everything. And so, you know, my days are quite, quite slow and quite quiet, let's say, for the most part. So I guess that's about the present.
[36:05]
Interviewer
That's a beautiful answer.
[36:06]
Dave Eggers
I'm not gonna say being in the present or anything.
[36:08]
I know we're never supposed to use these expressions.
[36:10]
Interviewer
Hackneyed cliche. We're never saying. But I do like the idea of it.
[36:14]
Dave Eggers
But we know what it means.
[36:15]
Interviewer
We know. And I like the idea of you dancing in ecstasy with an apricot tree. That's a lovely image.
[36:20]
Dave Eggers
Well, I wasn't doing any dancing. Come on, let's not go that far. No, I mean the apricot tree. I would never myself dance with an apricot tree, but watching the apricot tree.
[36:32]
Interviewer
Let's check back and sit in 10 years, see where you are. Okay. Three new cards. One, two or three?
[36:40]
Dave Eggers
Three.
[36:41]
Rachel Martin
Three. How often do you think about death?
[36:45]
Dave Eggers
Oh, God.
[36:47]
I didn't realize.
[36:48]
Somehow I missed how heavy these questions were on your show. Boy, oh boy. I mean,
[36:58]
I don't very often, though. You know, I think I used to a lot more so.
[37:05]
It doesn't occur to me. I used to, like, again, like, while surfing or doing anything, always picturing the 12 different ways one could die in that situation. But it would just come and go. It wasn't like I was neurotic about it, but it would just be a
[37:21]
series of kind of presentations like, well, this could happen.
[37:25]
And, you know, this has happened before.
[37:27]
Interviewer
And also, we have to say your parents died when you were only like 20 or 21. So death had to.
[37:32]
Dave Eggers
Well, sure.
[37:33]
Interviewer
I mean, on the brain for a long time.
[37:36]
Dave Eggers
Yeah.
[37:36]
So.
[37:37]
But these days, no, I. You know, I've.
[37:41]
I'm.
[37:41]
I'm older than they were when they passed now. And somehow dodged any kind of major diseases so far. And so you do find yourself getting free of those. The burden of feeling like, okay, there's
[37:59]
something about the bloodline that is, you know, frail. And so.
[38:06]
But you live differently and you live a drastically different life.
[38:10]
And so here we are, you know, in my mid-30s. And so it's really.
[38:18]
It's so funny. I use that. I say things like that in front of kids and they have no idea.
[38:22]
Interviewer
They're like, what?
[38:23]
Dave Eggers
I could be 35 or 70. They don't know. There's just no.
[38:28]
I don't know.
[38:29]
You're old. I mean, you're older than 18 after everybody. After 18. It's the same kind of category of old and decrepit. But. Yeah,
[38:41]
Interviewer
so not so much.
[38:43]
Dave Eggers
Not so much.
[38:44]
Interviewer
Yeah, no, yeah, I do. I've said this a lot, but my parents died. My mom was 60. My dad died at 74 just a couple years ago. And for my mom in particular, I'm always doing the death math, right? Like, oh, if I get to 60, awesome. I got, like eight years left. Basically, I'll die then.
[39:02]
Rachel Martin
And if I don't die, then it's all gravy.
[39:05]
Interviewer
It's all extra life that I didn't expect to have. And I don't know if that's healthy.
[39:11]
Dave Eggers
No, you gotta. I'm always looking for the people that
[39:14]
are 93 and doing great work still or out and about or musicians that
[39:19]
are, you know, doing their best work in their 80s. And I do know so many.
[39:24]
I collect these people all the time, really. You know, like.
[39:28]
Well, like Paul Simon's last album, I think is one of his two or
[39:31]
three best albums ever, Seven Psalms. And I think he was 82 when he made it. And so I'm always thinking of people that are sort of doing their best
[39:43]
work
[39:45]
and touring the world and all that stuff. I think it's inevitable when you want to look ahead and you feel. And you still feel youthful and not on the. You know, not any weaker, you know, than you were at any other point. I don't feel at all any less
[40:02]
strength than I did at 25 or 30. So.
[40:05]
But those folks.
[40:06]
And we're in such an incredible moment
[40:09]
where there are so many artists and writers working, doing their best work, and
[40:14]
it would make perfect sense that they
[40:16]
would do their best work at 70, 80. They've seen so much.
[40:22]
They're human libraries. They have wealth of experience. Of course, if they can sublimate it and make great art out of it, of course that would be, you know.
[40:34]
Of course they would have so much to say.
[40:37]
And it's just a matter of, like,
[40:38]
knowing that, you know, you should and that it's not your work is still valid or if not the most valid at that age.
[40:48]
And you see it a lot in
[40:50]
the visual arts world. You know, whether it was, like, Yayo
[40:54]
Kusama or Ruth Asawa or. You see so many artists. Faith Ringgold, like, all of these artists
[41:01]
that were really rediscovered or celebrated when they were older and their whole work
[41:09]
was reexamined or shown all over the world.
[41:14]
Of course, those people have the most to say, and of course, those retrospectives are the most dramatic and the most sort of affirming. And I'd love it when they have this career retrospective. But their new work is still just as bold and radical and weird as
[41:31]
their stuff when they were 25 and
[41:33]
usually better because they've, you know, there's,
[41:37]
Interviewer
like, wisdom in the weirdness.
[41:38]
Dave Eggers
Yeah, wisdom in the weirdness. There you go.
[41:41]
Title of your book.
[41:44]
Interviewer
Okay, last one. One, Two or three?
[41:49]
Dave Eggers
Three.
[41:49]
Interviewer
Three. What is something you want younger generations to understand?
[41:58]
Dave Eggers
Well, I'll go on my AI rant because I do this once a week with students.
[42:03]
And I was at a high school
[42:05]
class the other day, and when a teacher asked me, like, last words, I'm always like, well, listen, we're in this era where all of these. My kids are 17 and 20. I'm in high schools all the time. They're more tempted, and this is the first time in history when a whole generation is being told or tempted to
[42:24]
have a machine write for them to express themselves.
[42:28]
But I say, like, you are one of one unprecedented in the history of human evolution. There's only one of you, if your name is Asher, you know, so Asher, never been. There's never been you. There's never been you in ever. And there never will be another one of you. So to give your voice to a machine to say, speak for me, I'm going to be silent, and I'm going to tell a machine to express myself or to tell my narrative. It's such a crime against yourself. It's so dystopian. Beyond anything I could do in a
[43:01]
dystopian novel, and I did a lot
[43:03]
I never saw this coming, would be an entire generation tempted and too many
[43:08]
of them acquiescing to the silencing of their own voice in favor of a bland, unthinking machine to voice their souls.
[43:24]
I mean, what dystopian novelist would ever think that this was possible? But if you can tell them, even your roughest dress, even your most disjointed seeming thoughts are going to be valid. And your voice is essential. The human chorus is Incomplete without your voice. And I'm going to listen to whatever you say, even the rough drafts, whatever. I want those. I want to see it all.
[43:51]
Then
[43:54]
we can make sure that they're
[43:56]
heard and that they feel like there
[43:58]
are humans out there that want to hear that voice and not the machine processed voice.
[44:03]
So that's my advice.
[44:05]
Good lord, we're at a really scary time, you know, but every adult has to be that person. Every teacher, every parent has to be the one saying, do not do this. Your voice is the only thing that you have naturally. It's the one thing that nobody can replace. And so let's hear your truth.
[44:28]
Even if it's raw, even if it's
[44:30]
unpolished, even if it doesn't come in the five paragraph essay or whatever.
[44:34]
Like, let's.
[44:35]
Let's have it straight from you. So I love it when they hand write in class, which a lot of teachers are having their students do right now. And I love it when anything that
[44:46]
takes them away from processing it through or giving your voice to a machine.
[45:03]
Interviewer
Dave Eggers.
[45:04]
Rachel Martin
We end the show the same way
[45:05]
Interviewer
every time with a trip in our memory time machine. Okay. In the memory time machine, you revisit one moment from your past. It's not a moment you want to change anything about, but it is a moment you'd like to linger in a little longer. And ideally, it's something you'd like to share. What memory do you choose?
[45:28]
Dave Eggers
Anytime when I'm with my family, with my wife and kids, like, my daughter just got back from college.
[45:36]
Interviewer
She just got back from college.
[45:37]
Dave Eggers
Yeah, just for the summer. And that first moment when we're all four together again is just like I
[45:43]
would linger for centuries in that moment, just sitting around the table and talking and talking about her flight. It doesn't matter. So there, I mean, it's a. I don't.
[45:56]
It's not a super
[46:00]
unusual answer, I guess, but to me
[46:05]
you get to
[46:06]
really appreciate like, wow, okay.
[46:08]
There's something in the chemistry of the
[46:10]
four people that is just like, you know, unimprovable. And no matter what we're doing or what we're talking about, that sort of. It's like the most perfect jazz quartet of all time when like every, you know, you need all four of the
[46:28]
musicians to be there together, but without
[46:34]
any of them, it's fine, but not as good. And.
[46:37]
Kitchen table, kitchen table, fresh fruit. A long time ago, I designed a sort of an amoeba shaped table where you could.
[46:50]
And we had a friend make it out of butcher block and it's got a steel base and I wanted something that you could fit like eight people around with like, you know, kind of undulating shape and contraband. I don't really love right angles and hard angles all the time and everything minimalist and, and severe. So I love curves and I love organic shapes. And so we designed this shape and we've just been sort of. We all have our parts of the table.
[47:23]
Interviewer
Do you each have your own, like, inlet of the table?
[47:27]
Dave Eggers
Mm, 20 years now, or however long it's been. Yeah.
[47:32]
So I'm sure that there's, like, human
[47:34]
residue on each one of our inlets, you know, where our tummies have been
[47:38]
pressed against all that time. And, you know, and then there's like,
[47:42]
fresh lemons always in the front from the lemon tree that produces far more fruit than any human could ever conceive. I don't know why it has so
[47:50]
much fruit, but we always have 50 lemons on the table because the harvest never ends.
[47:58]
Interviewer
That's lovely.
[47:58]
Dave Eggers
Yeah, that's lovely.
[48:01]
Interviewer
I hope your kids keep coming home. Give them fresh fruit.
[48:05]
Dave Eggers
Yeah. There you go.
[48:05]
Interviewer
Yeah. Dave Eggers, it's been such a pleasure. You can read Dave's new book. It is called Contrapposto. It has just been so fun to do this. Thank you.
[48:26]
Dave Eggers
Thanks a lot, Rachel.
[48:27]
Good to see you.
[48:37]
Rachel Martin
If you like this episode, check out my conversation with George Saunders. George was equally reflective about his own path as a writer and what he has built through hard work and what
[48:47]
Interviewer
he is still reaching for.
[48:49]
Rachel Martin
This episode was produced by Cyring Vista and Summer Tomat. It was edited by Dave Blanchard and mastered by Joseph Yes. Wildcard's executive producer is Yolanda Singwin and our theme music is by Ramtin Arakloomi. You can reach out to us@wildcardpr.org we're going to shuffle the deck and be back with more next week. Talk to you then.
[49:13]
NPR Shortwave Announcer
Millions of people in the US get their flu shot each year. But a new scientific innovation could turn that routine into a one shot stop A universal flu vaccine, which would protect
[49:25]
Interviewer
not only against seasonal influenza, but also will prevent pandemic influenza.
[49:31]
NPR Shortwave Announcer
Learn about the revolution in fighting the flu on short wave. Listen in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.