Erykah Badu's goals are intentionally unreachable

Summary

Wild Card with Rachel Martin: Erykah Badu's Goals Are Intentionally Unreachable

Release Date: November 14, 2024
NPR's "Wild Card" with Rachel Martin
Featured Guest: Erykah Badu

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Introduction

In this standout episode of NPR's acclaimed podcast Wild Card with Rachel Martin, host Rachel Martin engages in a profound and unconventional conversation with the multifaceted artist Erykah Badu. Named a Top 10 Podcast of 2024 by The New York Times, Wild Card differentiates itself from typical interview formats by utilizing a unique deck of conversation-controlling cards. This episode, titled "Erykah Badu's Goals Are Intentionally Unreachable," delves deep into Badu's creative process, personal philosophies, and the spiritual dimensions that underpin her artistry.

Erykah Badu's Artistic Philosophy

From the onset, Erykah Badu establishes her intent to transcend traditional interview boundaries. She asserts, “I just wanna do more” (00:58), emphasizing her relentless pursuit of artistic growth beyond established norms. Badu's breakout album, Baduizm (1997), is highlighted as a testament to her genre-defying approach, seamlessly blending elements of jazz, pop, and soul. Rachel Martin notes, “Erykah Badu has never been about other people's characterizations of her. She's more expansive than that” (01:49), underscoring Badu's commitment to maintaining artistic integrity and spiritual depth in her work.

The Interview Game: Wild Card Mechanics

Wild Card employs a distinctive method where guests, like Badu, select questions from a specially designed deck. This approach fosters authentic and unexpected discussions. Badu introduces the game mechanics, explaining, “You get one skip. So if you're just not jiving with a particular question” (03:39), allowing for a dynamic and organic flow of conversation.

Personal Reflections and Insights

Sense of Home and Solitude

One of the first questions delves into the concept of home and solitude. Badu reflects, “A space shuttle, for one. Just like the four walls. As long as I have few activities, I'll be all right” (04:28). This metaphor encapsulates her comfort with isolation and introspection, revealing a deep-seated appreciation for alone time cultivated from childhood.

Impact of Others' Words on Her Trajectory

Badu shares a transformative experience, recounting how a boyfriend's comment, “men are attracted to other women. I'm always gonna be attracted to other women” (07:08), profoundly shifted her worldview. This moment marked her realization that “the world didn’t revolve around me” (07:47), illustrating her journey from self-centeredness to a more empathetic and grounded perspective.

Ambition and the Concept of Being Led Astray

Addressing ambition, Badu states, “Ambition? No, never. Because I don't consider being led astray a mistake” (15:04). She views perceived missteps as essential lessons, framing her ambition as a pathway to personal growth rather than a source of error.

Understanding of Authenticity

When asked about the emotion she comprehends best, Badu emphasizes authenticity: “There's a feeling when you're being authentic. You feel it and everyone else feels it” (17:42). She articulates that authenticity acts as a magnetic force, attracting both personal fulfillment and meaningful connections.

Beliefs She Let Go Of

Badu discusses her evolution away from rigid religious doctrines: “A belief I had to let go of was that there was one way to live a good life, and that was defined by certain theology” (23:10). This shift signifies her embrace of a more fluid and individualized spiritual journey, free from binary moral judgments.

Reflection on Memorable Moments

In the closing segment, Badu selects a memory from the present, citing a “quiet connection” felt during the conversation: “Fifteen minutes ago... we had some kind of really quiet connection. That was really, really special” (30:07). This reflection underscores the episode's theme of deep, meaningful interactions.

Erykah Badu's Work and Projects

Badu provides insights into her ongoing projects, including her cameo in Netflix's adaptation of August Wilson's "The Piano Lesson" (10:37). She discusses her collaboration with Malcolm Washington and composer Daniel Jones, highlighting her continuous engagement with both music and acting. Badu also hints at forthcoming musical endeavors, stating, “I do have a few” (12:51), suggesting an ever-evolving artistic repertoire.

Personal Growth and Spirituality

Throughout the conversation, Badu emphasizes practices that support her mental and spiritual well-being. She mentions meditation and mindful breathing as tools to manage her “very busy mind” (12:38), and acknowledges marijuana's role in her self-care regimen. Her approach to spirituality is deeply intertwined with her role as a doula, where she serves as a “welcoming committee” for new life and an “ushering committee” for those nearing the end of life (27:06), reflecting her holistic worldview.

Conclusion

The episode culminates with a heartfelt exchange, where both Rachel Martin and Erykah Badu express appreciation for the genuine connection forged during their conversation. Badu's final remarks, “It was a pleasure... I appreciate you being here for it” (30:38), encapsulate the episode's essence: an authentic, introspective dialogue that transcends conventional interview formats.

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Notable Quotes

• Erykah Badu (00:58): “I just wanna do more.”
• Rachel Martin (01:49): “Erykah Badu has never been about other people's characterizations of her. She's more expansive than that.”
• Erykah Badu (07:08): “Men are attracted to other women. I'm always gonna be attracted to other women.”
• Erykah Badu (15:04): “Ambition? No, never. Because I don't consider being led astray a mistake.”
• Erykah Badu (17:42): “There's a feeling when you're being authentic. You feel it and everyone else feels it.”
• Erykah Badu (23:10): “A belief I had to let go of was that there was one way to live a good life, and that was defined by certain theology.”
• Erykah Badu (30:07): “Fifteen minutes ago... we had some kind of really quiet connection. That was really, really special.”

Final Thoughts

This episode of Wild Card serves as a compelling exploration of Erykah Badu's intricate blend of artistry, spirituality, and personal evolution. By navigating through thoughtfully selected questions, Badu offers listeners an intimate glimpse into her worldview, making it a must-listen for fans and newcomers alike seeking depth and authenticity in conversations with influential cultural figures.

Transcript

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[Erykah Badu]

Well, I know the answer to this question.

No, you don't.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay, you're right. Do you think there's more to reality.

[Erykah Badu]

Than we can see or touch?

No. See, you thought you knew that.

[Rachel Martin]

I'm Rachel Martin and this is Wild Card, the game where cards control the conversation. Each week, my guest chooses questions at random from a deck of cards. Pick a card 1 through 3. Questions about the memories, insights and beliefs that have shaped them.

[Erykah Badu]

So each album is very, very special.

[Rachel Martin]

My guest this week is Erykah Badu.

[Erykah Badu]

But I just. As an artist, I just wanna do more.

[Rachel Martin]

Every time before we started rolling, I did what I always do with guests. I reminded Erica about the game and how this wasn't going to be a normal interview. Erica responded, good, because I don't do normal interviews. And it definitely wasn't. She sees the world differently than most people, and I don't mean to get all woo woo, but it's like she's inhabiting a different plane of existence. Things are more colorful there, like a kaleidoscope of what is and what could be her. Her music is like that, too. Erykah Badu's breakout album, Badouism, came out in 1997, and it defied all the regular categories of music. To this day, her sound transcends genre. Jazz, pop, soul. Yes, all of it or none of it.

[Erykah Badu]

It doesn't matter.

[Rachel Martin]

Erykah Badu has never been about other people's characterizations of her. She's more expansive than that. She's a deeply spiritual person who ushers people in and out of this world at the bedside of births and deaths. Yes, she's a singer and an actor. You can see her now in the Netflix adaptation of August Wilson's the Piano Lesson. And just a heads up, she uses some pretty explicit language throughout our conversation. Erykah Badu is also a bona fide fashion icon. I'm not just saying that because she has amazing style. Last month, the Council of Fashion Designers of America named her Fashion Icon of the Year. So I couldn't just wear anything for this interview, right? It had to be at least sort of interesting. I went into my closet and picked out a vintage red leather jacket that I got in a London thrift shop 20 years ago. I mean, I think it's pretty Cool. But when I got into the interview, Erykah Badu started giving me a fashion consultation.

[Erykah Badu]

Yeah, Let me see how it looks off.

I don't think it's gonna look cute.

I just wanna see.

[Rachel Martin]

It's just a T shirt.

[Erykah Badu]

Mine too. Mine is inside out.

Yeah, but you know what? Yours is cuter. Mine's just like a dumb costume or just like a.

That shit is punk.

Do you think?

Okay, keep the jacket on.

Okay.

Thank you.

So this is like a game.

[Rachel Martin]

Are you a game person?

[Erykah Badu]

Like when your family says, that's all.

I want to do is play.

Ah, that's a good answer. That's a good answer.

That's all.

There's a lot of serious stuff, and we don't do enough play in our life in general.

I think I agree.

All right, well, then let's do it.

Let's do it.

Let's play. Let's play. Okay, this is how it goes. Okay, so I've got a deck of cards in front of me. Each one has a question on it that I would love for you to answer. Okay, I'm gonna hold up three at a time, and you'll pick one at random. Okay, that's the question I'll ask you.

[Rachel Martin]

You've got two tools to use.

[Erykah Badu]

Okay. You get one skip. So if you're just not jiving with a particular question.

Skip. Skip. Yeah.

One skip and you get one flip.

One flip.

So you can ask me to answer the question before you do. You still gotta answer it.

But one skip, one flip.

There you go.

Got it.

That's it. We're breaking it up into three rounds. A few questions in each round, and we're gonna go.

[Rachel Martin]

Let's do it.

[Erykah Badu]

First three cards. One, two or three.

Middle.

Middle. Two. That was quick. You were feeling that. Is there a place that feels like home, even though you haven't lived there?

And is it a place that I would have visited before?

I don't know.

Yes. A space shuttle, for one.

Tell me why.

Just like, I could get used to it. Just like the four walls. As long as I have few activities, I'll be all right. I just think about it all the time. Do you come on a space shuttle, for one? Yeah, that'd be great.

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, there's not even any other astronauts on the space shuttle?

[Erykah Badu]

No. No, just me, for one.

Do you want to be going somewhere or do you want to just float around in space for just as long.

As they don't open that door, I'm fine. We can float. We can. We can do whatever we can roll, swim, you know, sail.

So do you like being alone?

Yes.

Were you blessed with that coming out of the womb, or did you learn how to be alone, or.

I, I, I think I was blessed with it, I'll say. Because I've always really enjoyed it.

Was your mom okay with that, or was she like, Erica.

Oh, yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

Go make some friends.

[Erykah Badu]

I had friends for sure. Lots of them. But I still really enjoyed mostly being alone and going home and getting under the dining room table after school. And there was this long cloth over it. I had all my shit under there, you know, color books and crayons and snacks and. Yeah, I disliked it. I was always making something or building something that was a secret.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Was music part of that, like.

Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, music was the background of everything in my life. It was the undertone. It was the hum of my universe. As a child, there was a radio that was always on in the bathroom. A small radio.

Was there a channel?

It was K104FM radio. It was R and B radio. Yeah. And songs, you know. Cause they play them eight times a day.

That's right.

We were kind of programmed to. Yeah. Know those songs. But music was always the undertone. And my uncle had a great record collection, and my mother had a great record collection. So music was like a. A central force for us.

Yeah. Okay, we're moving on.

Move on, move on.

Three more. One, two, three.

Three, three.

What's something someone told you that changed your trajectory?

One of my boyfriends told me, erica, men are attracted to other women. I'm always gonna be attracted to other women. I was like, what?

What?

It just changed everything. It ruined everything for me. I had to be about 23 years old, and he just, like, hurt my feelings real bad. I just didn't want to hear that. I wanted to believe I was the center of. Of his world, you know? And I. I learned at that point also simultaneously, that the world didn't revolve around me.

Yeah. So you mean that it did to some degree?

Absolutely, I did. Yeah. Because up to that point, I. I got everything I wanted, you know, There was no reason for my parents not to. To give me what I wanted. I did whatever they needed.

Yeah.

We have an equal exchange of appreciation and respect. And getting out in the world, meeting other people, you meet these other personalities. And that day I realized. So you mean that I'm not God's favorite? The world is not a private joke between me and God. This is impossible.

I can imagine that being a kind of grief, the way you said it like, I'm not God's favorite child, that. That there would be a sadness attached to that.

It was kind of sad, but then it took me off the hook a little, you know.

Oh, right.

Yeah.

It gave you more permission.

God's daughter can't be doing certain things, you know.

Well, that's true. It's a lot of pressure, right?

It's a lot of pressure. So a little bit I was like, yeah.

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[Rachel Martin]

Okay, we're gonna take a break from the game for just a minute.

[Erykah Badu]

Okay.

Because I wanna talk about what's going.

[Rachel Martin]

On in your work life.

[Erykah Badu]

Okay.

Yeah. Because you got a lot going on.

I do.

You've got this movie coming to Netflix November 22nd. It's called the Piano Lesson.

That is true.

Congratulations.

Thank you so much. Malcolm Washington gave me a call. Denzel's one of his sons, very talented filmmaker, and wanted me to do some music for it and ended up writing me into it to sing in in the club. Little Bits and Parts. So I have a tiny part, but I was able to compose three pieces with my dear friend Daniel Jones for the movie. And, yeah, I got a little cameo as a perk.

Are you writing music right now?

I am all the time Are you? Mm. I just wrote a song about you.

No, you didn't.

I did.

Well, now can you share it with me?

Rachel sitting around with a red shirt? She got a jacket on? And I made feelings hurt? Cause I told her to take it off? And she didn't want to? Cause she thinks it's real fresh? She thinks it's real cool? I said I didn't want a dream to end with me? So I let her keep the jacket on. That's the tea. Yeah. I'm really talented. And it's always been like this. It's not me.

Huh?

It's God.

Does that happen to you all the time? Like you're walking down the street, you see a person, It's. Something moves through you, feel the song. You got to get it out.

Yeah, it does happen all the time. Seriously?

Yeah.

Yeah, it does.

Yeah. I believe you.

I can hear music and everything. Shoes in the dryer, you know, making this drum beat, people chopping onions. You know, I always hear something in everything.

You have a busy mind, then. That sounds like a busy mind.

Very, very, very busy mind.

Yeah.

Yes.

Is that comfortable? Do you have ways to shut it up?

Yeah. Meditation is useful. Breathing is useful.

Yeah.

Marijuana.

Yeah. There's a lot of people who want me to ask you if you have any plans for an album.

I do. Yes. I do have a few.

Yeah.

Yeah, I'm working on that now. I can't really give you any detail.

No, that's okay.

Hasn't been born.

Yeah.

Pregnant?

Yeah.

New music right now.

Yeah. Okay, well, I'm gonna leave it. Three more. One, two, three.

Three, three.

Is there anything you long for?

Yes. I want to get my best work out of me because it's still in me and I feel it, and something in me can't let it go yet. I long for that moment that I'm able to let that go and give it to the world.

So you don't feel that you've reached that apex yet, huh?

No, not at all.

You strike me as the kind of person who, even if you put out this album, are you going to be satisfied?

And it could be amazing. I'd be satisfied with the album. Yes. Each album is like a kid, you know, it's like, you know, it goes through this whole birthing process and this whole gestation process and growing, so you don't ever want to let it go, really. So each album is very, very special. But I just, as an artist, don't think I've gotten to a place where this best work is it. I Just want to do more every time.

Yeah, yeah.

I appreciate what I. What I have.

Yeah.

But I want to do more. I want to contribute more.

Yeah, but it's reachable. It's not an unreachable thing. It's a reachable.

Perhaps. We'll see. Ah, but see, if I say it's reachable, then too easy.

Uh huh.

I have to believe that it's not reachable and I'm the only one that can reach it.

All right, you have a skip and you have a flip if any of these you're not feeling.

Okay.

Okay. Three more cards. One, two. Three. Two, two. Has ambition ever led you astray?

Ambition? No, never. Because I don't consider being led astray a mistake. I consider it being a part of whatever lesson you have to learn.

Yeah.

I don't think that mistakes can be discounted as blessings.

Yeah.

Oh, discounted as not being blessed.

Yeah, I understand what you mean.

I'll give you an example. I around Covid, I lost both of my grandmothers and they were in their 90s, and they were the thing that kind of tethered me to the earth. Yeah. I was a little sad about it. Grieving and trying to grow and I wanted to. I don't know, you grow a lot when you lose things, when you go through pain. It's kind of the only way that you really get things cemented into to you. And I went through that and I came out of that. And my next request was I really want to practice kindness. I want to embody the kindness of those women, you know? And the next day I went to the airport. My luggage was not put on the plane. It was left on the tarmac. The lady at the front, you know, was not giving me special treatment.

Didn't care who you were?

No, no. And. And it's important. Side note, sidebar. We need special treatment sometimes because we work so hard to entertain everyone that you're coming off stage and you're going to the next bit, next place. So that first class seat is what helps me rest between.

Yeah.

You know, doing what I do.

Yeah.

But anyhow, y'all, that's what I'm trying to say. That's what I meant. So.

[Rachel Martin]

No, Erica, we were starting with. You were gonna be kinder.

[Erykah Badu]

I know. I'm being kind now to myself. You see that?

Oh, I get you.

Okay. So I said I wanted to be kinder and I went to the airport and my luggage was left on the tarmac, the ticketing counter. They was being funny, you know, it was Just tiresome. And of course, I got on the plane and I was sitting there and I was gonna cry, then I thought, aha. The universe said, practice on this. You wanna practice kindness, Practice on this.

Yeah.

But after that, I did see that being an opportunity.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Three more. One, two, or three?

Give me two again.

What emotion do you understand better than all the others?

The emotion I understand more than all the others is authenticity. Yeah. There's a feeling when you're being authentic. You feel it and everyone else feels it, and it becomes a magnet to everything you can desire. Because you're being you. That means that everything in your body is functioning at peace, at rest. Your breath, your heart rate. You begin to attract the things and people naturally because you. Everything is in order. It's a divine order. When you're being yourself, that means thinking your thoughts and using your brain and your idea. Boundaries, concepts, vision, belief, unwavering faith in yourself. That's the greatest emotion.

I do think that's what people respond to when about you. I think that's what draws people to you in your art.

So that's what I heard.

Yeah. Rumor has it. But like, is that again? I. Is that a thing? You. You just were. Did your. Was your. Did your mother model that for you?

Yes. Ah, yes. She told me I was the best.

That's different.

Which made me believe that I was okay. I was enough. You're the best. That means you're more than enough.

Yeah.

I said, well, what about when I don't win? So you let somebody else win. Yeah. But, yeah, she did that. She did that. Very powerful.

Is your mom still around?

Absolutely. Yeah. She's my fashion icon.

Truly. She's a good style.

Oh, my God. Yeah. She was in high school. They used to call her Twiggy because she dyed her hair blonde and big eyes.

She had that little pixie cut.

She had the pixie cut. She was really skinny and she was just a cute girl.

[Rachel Martin]

Foreign.

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[Erykah Badu]

So I think it's completely distorted the democratic purity or legitimacy of our elections in the United States.

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[Erykah Badu]

We're in the last round already.

Red I know. Everyone gets so.

I don't know.

Poor red. Lissy, do you think it's horror does.

That what it evokes in you?

Yes. Because my grandmother wouldn't let us wear red polish or red lipstick or red underwear because the devil.

No, my grandma said it was the devil.

Whores even worse than the devil. Whores. Because whores still your husband.

Good Lord.

That's worse than the devil. You see what I'm saying? The devil don't do nothing but scare you and shit. Whores still your husband.

Wow. He doesn't have anything to do with it. It's the women.

Yes, According to my grandma. See, red polish was the only color they made in her day when she was a girl.

Yeah.

It was red polish lipstick. And only women of the evening.

Women of the night.

Yes, Women of the night. Right. So she didn't let us wear that. So pull up them whore red cards. Let's see. I'm gonna need.

Okay, so this is number two.

I want that hole in the middle.

Oh, God.

Yes.

Okay. What's a belief you had to let go of?

A belief I had to let go of besides believing that the world revolved around me?

Yeah.

A belief I had to let go of.

See, you want me to go first?

Yeah, you go first.

Okay. So flipping it. A belief I had to let go.

Of.

That there was one way to live a good life, and that was that it was divined by certain theology. I grew up in a really religious home.

Yes.

Very religious parents. Dad was the volunteer pastor at the church. And so it's, you know, you can imagine where this is going. It was just there was one way to be a Good person and. And. And. And one way to. To see the world. And. And it was a right or a wrong. It was a binary. So, you know, I was.

It was a one life fits all.

Yeah.

Kind of concept. I understand that.

And so I was. You know, I was in my early twenties when I. When I started interrogating that. And my own religion and spiritual life has ebbed and flowed over a long time, a lifetime. But that. That is a belief that I let go of was that there was. That there was one way to believe.

[Rachel Martin]

That there was one way to be.

[Erykah Badu]

Or have a good life.

Or have a good life.

That's the way you explain that.

Yeah. One way to have a good life.

A good life.

Yeah.

There's one way. That's good that.

Did that buy you time?

Yeah, it bought me a lot of time. Thanks.

Yeah, you bet.

Okay. A belief I had to let go of is I have to entertain the thoughts that come to my mind. I had to let go of that belief because I learned that I didn't have to. I learned that I could change the thought because I experienced that some thoughts lead to anxiety for me, and I didn't want it. So I had to be like, wait a minute. I don't have to live in this room. I don't have to be thinking, this. This is not even here. Yeah. So once I no longer believed that I had to entertain the thoughts that were in my mind, I could get out my mind and be out here with you.

Yeah.

And my kids and people.

When did you have that realization? Is that a recent thing or.

Let me see out my mind. Just in time. 2000. 2010. 2010. I wrote the song. I did. I wrote a song about it. Just about. If you want to know anything about me, if I want my children to know who I am, give them my albums. Yeah. So, yes, it was. It was very important. I wrote it. And when I write it down, it is. It is so out my mind. It just in time. Never knew.

Three more cards.

Okay, three more cards.

One, two, three.

I want one.

[Rachel Martin]

I don't know. We could say that about these cards.

[Erykah Badu]

It's wild. Is it?

What? It. Yes, it is. Yes, it is. Well, I know the answer to this question.

No, you don't.

Okay, you're right.

[Rachel Martin]

Do you think there's more to reality.

[Erykah Badu]

Than we can see or touch?

No.

What?

See, you thought you knew the answer. Okay. Do I think there's more to reality than we can see or touch? Absolutely. Absolutely.

I know I said it in the introduction, but you work As a doula, you also sit with people who are at the end of their life. And in those spaces, it's hard to deny that there is more to life, to reality than we can see or touch, because there's an energy there that we can't see or touch. When life moves in and out of the world.

Yes. I mean, I don't know, and I don't have to know to want to be the welcoming committee. As a doula, you know where they're coming from. I just. I want to make sure that from what I've learned since I've been here, I just want to feel like a. Your. Your. Your guide around the high school. And I'm a junior, and you're a freshman, you know, and this is what I know about the school. It's what I want to share. As a doula, specifically, I'm the welcoming committee. I want to make sure that when you come to this place, the room is prepared for you. Because I believe if you have a start, with easy breath and love and things you can smell that are beautiful and music that you can hear, that's beautiful. And your parents united. And even though they have problems, they're taking this day to come together for this most important ceremony, the day you came into this world. That's important to me as a doula, and my contract is really with the baby, the unborn baby. That's my friend. And I keep in touch with them as they grow.

So if you're the welcome committee for the baby, when you sit with people who are at the end of their.

Life, I'm the ushering committee.

Yeah.

Yeah. So I'm not going to profess that I know where they're going or by what kind of pathway or portal or vortices. I just want them to have the same experience going out. Easy breath, easy heart rate. I've left this realm or this place with something sweet to smell or to taste or to hear. With love and relaxed. And I suggest that there should be no fear. Let's get to a point of no fear, because you're going to know something that we don't know. But I believe that you're going to need your easy breath.

We end the show the same way every time. It's a trip in our memory time machine.

Okay.

You go back to a moment from your past. You would not change anything about. You would just like to linger there a little longer. What moment do you choose? Hmm.

Fifteen minutes ago, when we were talking about something, we had some kind of really quiet connection. That was really, really special. It was a feeling in my heart. I don't know if this guy and the producer in here felt it too, but there's just some energy. I would. It's going to last me for the rest of the day. It filled me up today.

Thank you. I appreciate that.

Me too.

It was a pleasure. A pleasure doesn't even seem like the right word. But I did enjoy our time and I appreciate you being being here for it.

Me too, sis. I appreciate you tolerating my weird sense of humor.

You can see and hear Erykah in the new Netflix movie the Piano Lesson. It is out November 22nd.

Yes.

Erykah badu. Thank you so much.

Thank you, sis. Peace to you.

Yeah. And to you.

[Rachel Martin]

If you like this episode, you should listen to my conversation with David Lynch. He is another person who seems to exist on a different plane of existence. It was a weird and wild experience talking with him. Check it out. Next week on Wild Card, I talked to actor Jimmy O. Yang about the infinite universe. Anything infinite is scary.

[Erykah Badu]

I look up, I look out the ocean at night, I get a little scared. It seems so vast and infinite.

[Rachel Martin]

This episode was produced by Cher Vincent and edited by Dave Blanchard. It was mastered by Robert Rodriguez. Wild Card's executive producer is Beth Donovan. Our theme Music is by Ramt Arabbuy. Reach out to us why don'[e-mail] we'll shuffle the deck and be back with more next week. See you then.

[NPR Sponsor]

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