John Cena

Summary

---

Wild Card with Rachel Martin: John Cena (June 25, 2026)

Episode Overview

In this episode of NPR's acclaimed podcast Wild Card, host Rachel Martin sits down with WWE legend, actor, and all-around entertainer John Cena. Through the podcast’s signature deck-of-cards format, Cena reflects candidly on life, mortality, ambition, family, and the lessons learned from 23 years in wrestling and a growing Hollywood career. The conversation is equal parts profound and lighthearted, with memorable storytelling, introspection, and warm humor.

---

Key Themes & Segments

Reflections on Mortality and Change

Main Theme: Cena’s views on mortality and embracing change set a thoughtful, grateful tone throughout.

• Timestamps: [00:17], [43:33], [46:00]
• Key Moment: Rachel immediately opens by asking if his feelings about death have changed. Cena confesses that his youthful bravado (“I’m not really gonna make it till I’m 40”) has evolved into gratitude for each moment.
  • Quote:

    “Now my perspective has changed, that we all die. We are all going to die. And it gives me gratitude towards the now. ... it's why I don't have a void for retirement. I have love and gratitude and thanks.” (John Cena, [00:32] and [44:06])

• Later, Cena discusses how working with Make-A-Wish shaped his view of gratitude and the preciousness of time:
  • “There is not a better chin check on, like, how bad are my problems? Than to go into someone really fighting, climbing a steep hill and ... see them so full of joy and excitement and hope, even with that steep climb.” (John Cena, [46:00])

---

Family, Childhood, and Early Lessons

• Timestamps: [02:08]–[09:18]
• Cena shares a vivid childhood memory of getting in trouble at his brother’s play, connecting his early daredevil antics to his wrestling persona.
  • Quote:

    “I climbed up on the stage and said, 'I'm Superman,' and jumped off into a bunch of steel chairs...I think that was the first time I worried everyone but got in trouble as well.” (John Cena, [02:13])

• He credits his parents for fostering imagination, sharing their theater backgrounds and unique parenting style rooted more in survival than restriction.
  • “[Their] strategy was like, just make sure they live...I tip my cap to my parents for not protecting me so much...it allowed us to figure it out...” ([05:06])
  • “The one thing they wholeheartedly agreed upon was embracing imagination.” ([07:31])
• On wrestling with his brothers in a homemade basement “ring”:
  • “We watched wrestling. ... We used to beat the tar out of each other as kids.” ([08:38])

---

Drive, Work Ethic, and Defining Moments

• Timestamps: [09:51]–[13:20]
• Cena recounts his path to getting into Cushing Academy—a turning point where he transformed from a lackluster student to a committed athlete and scholar.
  • “The dean of students said, 'If you can take your grades from C’s and D’s to A and B’s ... we’ll take you.' And I did.” ([10:06])
  • “Someone was like, ‘Hey, we think you can. Do you think you can?’… I just needed the right mentorship, I guess.” ([12:15])

---

Wrestling, Retirement, and Finding Gratitude

• Timestamps: [19:59]–[23:34]
• Cena thoughtfully discusses his WWE retirement, rejecting the notion of a “void” and instead embracing gratitude for the career chapter:
  • “Instead of a void, it’s more like gratitude...I’m not trying to replace that chapter with anything. ... The show was there before me. It is there after me. I should just be grateful to have a spot on the timeline.” ([22:10])
  • Rachel reflects, “That was just lovely. ... how to navigate your life and how to close chapters and feel grateful and not feel regret or longing...” ([23:34])

---

Relationships, Vulnerability, and Alone Time

• Timestamps: [24:48]–[29:51]
• Cena describes deeply valuing both connection and solitude, and learning from past relationship struggles:
  • “I want to live my life as a loving member of a team. I also cherish my alone time… I need to not forget who I am.” ([24:55])
• On giving his “whole self” in marriage versus the compartmentalized life of wrestling:
  • “A long term, loving relationship involves giving your whole self to the team... Now I want to be the best husband to my wife that I can more than anything else. ... Something has to give, you know?” ([28:53]–[29:51])

---

Ambition, Integrity, and Learning from Failure

• Timestamps: [33:27]–[37:48]
• Cena owns up to times when ambition led him astray, describing a moment when a secretive business venture nearly eroded a valued relationship:
  • “Those are my most teachable moments and those are the ones I reflect on with guilt, borderline shame...” ([33:49])
  • The story of nearly betraying WWE boss Vince McMahon’s trust is a highlight of humility and growth.
    • “It took five minutes or less to realize, like, I'm such an idiot... I immediately called the company back and said, I'm out. This isn’t for me.” ([35:20])

---

Dealing with Criticism and Judgment

• Timestamps: [40:24]–[42:35]
• Cena addresses how he hopes people will judge his life and his journey toward accepting criticism:
  • “I try to work hard to be the person I say I am... but as far as people judging how I live my life, I wouldn’t want them to tell me how to live mine... They’ve earned the freedom by waking up each day...” ([40:24])
  • “It’s not easy, but... it allows me to deal with negativity. It keeps me grounded... If I am struggling with it, I can lean on people I love.” ([41:13])

---

The Power of Change and Contributing Your Verse

• Timestamps: [48:51]–[50:03]
• Cena’s guiding truth comes from Walt Whitman:
  • Quote:

    “The powerful play goes on. We get to contribute a verse. ... The only truth is the constant of change and the fact that we’re mortal. ... The only constant is change. And we are all renters.” ([48:57])

• He stresses acceptance of change and the importance of evolving perspective.

---

Favorite Memory: A Simple, Joyful Moment

Timestamp: [50:22]

• Asked to revisit any moment, Cena chooses his wedding day—specifically sharing cookies with his wife and watching their guests enjoy themselves.
  • “Our mission statement was, this day is about us...towards the end of the night, we’re just each eating a wonderful chocolate chip cookie to look at each other and be, they're having a lot of fun out there. This is such a good moment.” ([50:42])

---

Notable Quotes

• On learning limits:

  “It’s far more effective for me to learn my limits rather than to be told them. ... That blissful ignorance ... allows you to find them in real time.” (John Cena, [03:59])

• On performance and story:

  “As an entertainer, I want to just entertain audiences. I never want to tell audiences how to feel.” ([16:52])

• On vulnerability:

  “A long term, loving relationship involves giving your whole self to the team, you know?” ([29:08])

• On fear:

  “We certainly all have fear and we, we should, we should have fear. I tend to try to talk about mine and figure it out.” ([32:04])

• On truth and change:

  “Truth is constantly changing. ... The only constant is change. And we are all renters.” ([48:57])

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:17 — Feelings about death and mortality open the conversation
• 02:13 — First childhood memory of getting in trouble
• 07:00 — The role of imagination and parental influence
• 09:51 — Boarding school and turning things around
• 15:01 — Discussing new film “Little Brother”
• 19:59 — WWE retirement and gratitude
• 24:55 — Alone time, relationships, and vulnerability
• 27:59 — Marriage, past failures, and growth
• 33:27 — Ambition leading astray and learning from mistakes
• 40:24 — Handling others’ judgments and criticism
• 43:33 — Revisiting thoughts on death (looping from the start)
• 46:00 — Make-A-Wish and perspective on suffering and joy
• 48:57 — The guiding truth: change is constant
• 50:22 — Favorite moment: wedding day with wife

---

Tone & Language

• Sincere, reflective, unguarded, and witty.
• Cena’s humility, humor, and philosophical take on life make this episode accessible and uplifting.
• Both guests and host move fluidly between laughter and depth, blending storytelling with universal insights.

---

This episode is a rich, rewarding listen for fans of John Cena, those exploring themes of change and mortality, or anyone seeking grounded reminders of our shared humanity.

Transcript

[John Cena]

This message comes from BetterHelp. Summer can feel like a sprint. It's easy to slip into survival mode just trying to get through it. Therapy can help you slow down and actually be present for the moments that matter. Visit betterhelp.com NPR have your feelings about

[Rachel Martin]

death changed over time?

[John Cena]

Yes, I will die. I always used to say it out loud, like, as a young person, like, oh, I'm not really gonna make it till I'm 40. That was just cannon fodder.

[NPR Announcer]

Ye.

[John Cena]

My perspective has changed, that we all die. We are all going to die. And it gives me gratitude towards the now. It allows me to reflect with great feelings. It's why I don't have a void for retirement. I have love and gratitude and thanks.

[Rachel Martin]

I'm Rachel Martin, and this is Wildcard, the show where cards control the conversation. Each week, my guest answers questions about their life. Questions pulled from a deck of cards. They're allowed to skip one question and to flip one back on me. My guest this week is John Cena.

[John Cena]

I look back on like I had 23 years of being a pro wrestler.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. What? What?

[John Cena]

That's my vocation.

[Rachel Martin]

John Cena is a WWE legend, but he has built a career as an entertainer that really transcends the ring. The first time I saw him lead a cast in a Movie was the 2019 family film playing with Fire. And his rapport with kids in that movie did not seem like acting at all. That the man contains multitudes. His newest film is called Little Brother. And I am so very happy to welcome John Cena to Wildcard. Hi, John.

[John Cena]

Thank you. Glad I could play today.

[Rachel Martin]

Here we go. Memories. I'm gonna hold up three cards and you pick, John randomly. One, two, or three.

[John Cena]

Has anyone ever asked you to pick?

[Rachel Martin]

Sometimes we call that a dealer's choice.

[John Cena]

Dealer's choice.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay.

[John Cena]

I like this because the dealer can see all the questions.

[Rachel Martin]

I'm gonna go with two.

[John Cena]

Okay.

[Rachel Martin]

When's the first time you really got in trouble?

[John Cena]

My older brother Steve was performing in his second grade play at Central Elementary School in West Newbury, Massachusetts. I, before the show started, climbed up on the stage and said, I'm Superman, and jumped off into a bunch of steel chairs. And there's a pretty cool picture of me peering up from one of the steel chairs with two huge black eyes. Black eyes. And it is just. I think that was the first time I worried everyone but got in trouble as well. That's the first time I remember that

[Rachel Martin]

you can draw such a clear line between that moment and what you ended up doing. For a living.

[John Cena]

Imagine that.

[Rachel Martin]

I mean, there's. Imagine that.

[John Cena]

Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

Funny that there's the performance gene. Percolated early, it seems. And being able to use your body thinking you're invincible. Not being afraid. Yeah. Thinking you're invincible and being comfortable with risk.

[John Cena]

Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

Was that emblematic, in general, of your childhood?

[John Cena]

I think so. I think so. I've been using the term, like, courageous ignorance a lot. You know, a little bit of. Certainly a lot of curiosity. But I think the courageous ignorance of not knowing enough has led to a lot of interesting experiences.

[Rachel Martin]

It gives you permission, or you're giving yourself permission to just to be bold, to try things and hopefully you don't get burned. But I imagine the risk reflex will kick in eventually and protect you from actually doing damage to your body.

[John Cena]

I think that's well said. And even in the realm of you do know your limits, like, you learn your limits, I have experienced that it's far more effective for me to learn my limits rather than to be told them. And I think that courageous ignorance, that blissful ignorance of, like, not even having the conversation about limits allows you to find them in real time.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. You came from a big family. I mean, you were one of one of five.

[John Cena]

All boys.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, all boys. So were your parents.

[John Cena]

Everybody always. Everyone always does that. All boys.

[Rachel Martin]

Well, I'm the mother of two boys. I love being the mom of boys. Boys are great. I am. They are a total treat. Adventure, craziness, all the things. But it does force one to think about what boundaries you need to put up, you know, just for safety. Were your parents. What was their parenting strategy with you? I mean, were you different from your siblings?

[John Cena]

I think their strategy was like, just make sure they live, you know? And I will say, I really. I tip my cap to my parents for not protecting me so much. And I think the rest of us, because it allowed us to live and it allowed us to kind of figure it out, and there wasn't. I mean, we did get in a lot of trouble, but no one was ever severely injured, and we learned a whole lot of lessons.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. That's the thing I'm starting to say to my kids as they get older and they have more independence, like, go out, be in the world, make mistakes. Please call me if someone's getting hurt or about to get hurt or, like, just. I want there to be open communication, and that is the hard line, like safety for yourself and your buddies.

[John Cena]

I think that's well said. Sometimes, though, like, I. I, again, so, like, drawing the limits of safety. I don't know. I, I, I think I, I benefited that there were very few limits of safety.

[Rachel Martin]

Really?

[John Cena]

Yeah. It was just a different time. And, and through that, I got to go out and skin my knee with, like, no one around to.

[Rachel Martin]

I get it.

[John Cena]

The most important thing was just hanging out and playing with your friends.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay, next one. One, two, or three?

[John Cena]

Gosh. I want to go dealer's choice on all these.

[Rachel Martin]

You can't. Okay.

[John Cena]

It's your game. They're your rules. And if you say I can't, I can't. You already chose two. I will say you choose between one and three.

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, my gosh. Okay. Okay. I'm going three. What's something your parents taught you to love?

[John Cena]

Uh, imagination. My dad was a huge theater buff. He directed small plays. He had aspirations to do larger things and then had a bunch of kids. My mom met my dad in the theater. He's directing a play where she was involved, and, you know, a theater romance started, and they formed a family out of that. Both of their roots are in imagination and performance.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah.

[John Cena]

And they taught us to love imagination. It was always embraced. I think my parents struggled to see parenting from the same level in a lot of cases, and values on the same level in a lot of cases. But the one thing they wholeheartedly agreed upon was embracing of imagination.

[Rachel Martin]

Did your parents support the imagination part of your wrestling career? You know what I mean? Like, in wwe, I mean, there's all the athleticism, but there's this real performance part of it. Did they see that as a creative act? Did they appreciate it as the creative act?

[John Cena]

So my dad, oddly enough, like, wrestling was, was and has always been our through line, like, our conduit. He was one of the first homes in West Newbury to get cable television in, like, the mid-80s, so we could watch more wrestling. And, and I'm serious, like, he. I never played catch with my dad. He wasn't really into sports, which was. That was different because growing up in New England, it's very sports focused.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, for sure.

[John Cena]

We watched wrestling.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, you watched wrestling.

[John Cena]

So we, we used to beat the tar out of each other as kids. And when it was allowed was we had a ring in a wrestling league in the basement. When I say basement, I mean concrete and poles. And the poles were like the ring posts. So we would wrestle next to the furnace that was heating the house. Like, that's what I mean by, like, not a lot of governance as long as we're okay, kind of, you know. My dad fully embraced the imagination of WWE and pro Wrestling. My mom.

[NPR Announcer]

Yeah.

[John Cena]

Didn't quite understand it. Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

Did she ever come around to it?

[John Cena]

She did. She did.

[Rachel Martin]

She.

[John Cena]

Man, this last year, the retirement tour, she was. She loved it. Absolutely loved it. And like really let me know how proud she was and really did her best to try to understand everything. Yeah. But for the longest time she just didn't want me to get hurt.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. You know, I get it. Okay, last one in this round.

[John Cena]

Yeah, I gotta choose one. Cause that's the one that hasn't been chosen.

[NPR Announcer]

All right.

[Rachel Martin]

I like your style. Where was the first place you lived when you felt truly on your own?

[John Cena]

Ah, Cushing Academy in Ashburnham, Massachusetts as a 15 and a half or 16 year old boarding school. Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay, tell me about that. Was that your idea? Your parents idea?

[John Cena]

So my older cousin has kind of always been an inspiration in my life. And especially at that age, I kind of wanted to do all the things he was doing. And he applied to Cushing Academy because a friend of his was already in. So I'm like, I want to do all the things you're going to do. I'm going to get accepted. We're going to get accepted. We're going to go together. I'm going to live at school. This is going to be great. He didn't get accepted and didn't continue a path. I also didn't get accepted. But in, in the school letting me know that I wasn't accepted, I was like a CD student and I was a freshman at the time. The, the dean of students said, hey, on your tour we really saw potential in you. If you can take your grades from C's and D's to A and B's. And if you can become a two sport varsity athlete this year, we'll take you. And I did. In my sophomore year, I, I kind of turned my ship around. I now had academic purpose and switched my grades from C's and D's to A's and B's. I varsity lettered in baseball and football. I went back to do the whole interview process again, the whole application process again, the tour of the school, sitting down with faculty, and finally they said, hey, you're in. And my dad was like, I'm broke. And they were like, we will figure that part out. But we think you'd be an asset just by your perseverance alone. And I got a chance to have an opportunity. I never thought I would in life.

[Rachel Martin]

So this is so interesting because we don't know each other. We're just meeting here now, but Based on what I've followed from your career and interviews I've read of you. You do seem like a person with such a strong work ethic. And you work a lot and you give, like, 100%. And this seems like maybe that was this one of, like, the origin stories of where that started is all of a sudden there became, like, this goal that you attach to outcomes that maybe could help your future trajectory. Or were you like that when you were a younger kid, too?

[John Cena]

I don't know. I think the origins might be my, like, family base. My mom has a work ethic that I inspire to have. My dad is, at times, he could be labeled maybe a workaholic, like effort. We were never shy in the effort category in the Cena household, ever. Yeah, I think this was just a thing where, again, courageous ignorance. I didn't even know these schools existed. I had a perfectly good social life where I was. And obviously being a CD student, my focus wasn't in the classroom. I showed some athletic promise. And then someone was like, hey, we think you can. We think you can do this. Do you think you can do this? And I think I just enjoy hearing that. And from then on, I was like, man, I think I can do this. I'll do this. You know, I just needed the right mentorship, I guess.

[NPR Announcer]

Support for NPR comes from IBM. On Smart Talks with IBM, host Malcolm Gladwell speaks with leaders who are pushing the boundaries of AI and technology in partnership with IBM.

[John Cena]

Hello. Hello. I'm Malcolm Gladwell, host of Smart Talks with IBM. I sat down with Alon Cohen, who leads research and development at ufc, to discuss the complexity of using technology to analyze fighting data.

[Alon Cohen]

With kick to the head, it makes contact with the outside of my arm, which I brought up. In our world, that's. That's a blocked strike. Yeah, but teaching a computer what exactly that means and when and how, like, when my arm is up, that's a block. When my arm is down and hits my shoulder, that's not. It's those nuances that proved incredibly difficult for machines to be able to handle for a very, very long time.

[John Cena]

That is, until IBM entered the octagon.

[NPR Announcer]

Listen to Smart Talks with IBM wherever you get your podcasts. This message comes from Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail], progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.

[Rachel Martin]

We're Gonna pull out of the game for a couple minutes. Yes.

[John Cena]

Let's talk some movies.

[Rachel Martin]

Let's talk some movies. So you have a new one out.

[John Cena]

Yep.

[Rachel Martin]

Which we need to say because there are just so many like you. Do you do work a lot, as we have indicated.

[John Cena]

I'm grateful for the opportunity. Thank you.

[Rachel Martin]

Is Little brother. This is with Eric Andre. I'm gonna attempt to summarize this plot. You are reunited with this guy who Eric plays. It is a guy you mentored when your character was, like, in high school, and then you sort of forgot about him.

[John Cena]

Yep.

[Rachel Martin]

And he did not forget about you. And so he, like, tracks you down and finds you at a different stage of your life and shenanigans ensue.

[John Cena]

That's correct.

[Rachel Martin]

So Eric Andre. Had you worked with him before?

[John Cena]

I was a special small guest on the Eric Andre show. And that's cause I expressed to the folks that connect people that I was a huge fan. I loved how freewheeling the show was. It's amazing. It is raw.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah.

[John Cena]

We keep in touch. Ever since I was in touch with him before I did the show, we stay in touch. He said, I have this project. I want to send it to you. I read it in a day and say I'd love to do it. The script is great. It's gonna be in the Netflix family, so I know the people putting it out. We're gonna be okay. This script allows you to sh. This is for you, man. Like, you're gonna be great in this. And the part is great for me. Let's assemble a good team and go out and try to make a great movie. And it was as short as that.

[Rachel Martin]

So fraternity is the center of the movie. Right. Like the idea of brotherhood, your relationship with Eric's character. And you also have your actual brother in the movie, played by Chris Maloney. And that's a lovely thing. I mean, it's a funny movie. Right. But it's not supposed to hit you over the head with some big moral message. But there is something really tactile in there about brothers, and that clearly had to have been a draw for you as a person with many brothers.

[John Cena]

So I think that's interesting you say that the movie's not supposed to hit you over the head with a moral message. As an entertainer, I want to just entertain audiences. I never want to tell audiences how to feel. I don't think that's. I don't think that's right. Even if you're a performer trying to send a message, if you're an Artist trying to put out art with a message. And someone appreciates your art but interprets their own message. Your art is out to the world. That's perfectly okay if you see it and you like it for different reasons. We're not supposed to hit you over the head with messaging in pro wrestling, so to speak. But there's I. I invest in every opponent of why are we fighting? What is our story? And it can be like, the struggle in our fraternity, the lack of fraternity. I'm frustrated. I'm embarrassed. You start there, even though no one gets it, they just go into the audience and they whip themselves up into a frenzy, and everybody has fun. For me, this story for me, looking through my lens is I'm a big believer in. You choose your family. And love isn't just simply granted because you say the. You have the same last name. Love is a very powerful thing that. I just don't throw that word away. And for this movie, and this is where I read a script, and I'm like, I think my talents, strengths, and gifts could be well served here, especially with good coaching and good castmates. To me, this was my perspective of the family you choose.

[Rachel Martin]

Do you like using your body this way? I mean, you have built so much of your career on your physical body, and throwing it around in the ring is one way to use it as an instrument. And acting's a totally different way. And especially physical comedy, you get to flex that muscle, no pun intended, in this movie. But is it fun for you to inhabit your body in this different way in acting? You know what I mean?

[John Cena]

Let's make no mistake about it. For me, playing dress up is fun.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah.

[John Cena]

And that could be doing nothing. Just simply a director wanting to catch introspection. And their coaching note is, I need you to do nothing. Be elsewhere. I'm just gonna roll. Just be someplace else. All of it is fun. It's all imagination, and it is whimsical and creative. And I don't know, but that's the beauty of it for me. And those things aren't for everybody. But when you talk to folks in the professional field, they like talking about that stuff. And, yeah, all that stuff is fun. To be able to be a physical storyteller like Chaplin or Jackie Chan or, you know, Keaton, like, that's so cool. That's a universal language. People can turn the volume down, and people around the world can laugh with you and at you. And that's fun, right? So I like it all. It's all fun.

[Rachel Martin]

So you made this big Change recently. I mean, your retirement.

[John Cena]

Ah, yes.

[Rachel Martin]

From the wwe. Yes, Just this past December. Huge deal for wwe. Huge deal for your fans and for you. I mean, 17 world championships.

[John Cena]

17. We ended with 17. That means I lost it 17 times, too. A great lesson on the inevitability of failure.

[Rachel Martin]

Right. But did you. I mean, it has to have created a void that you were anticipating for a long time that would exist in your life. Did you know intellectually that you were just gonna double down on Hollywood to fill that void, or is there still a grief in there?

[John Cena]

So neither. You speak in an absolute that there has to be a void. I don't think that's true. I started very early in my career, and I went on record to say, when I'm a step slower, I'm gonna step away. And the reason I said that is because I saw performers hit a certain age, and their performance just didn't match the rest of the show.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah.

[John Cena]

And that's what people remember. They don't remember the moments you want them to. They'll remember you at the end when you were too slow for the show. So I learned that lesson early on, and I'm not perfect at keeping my word, but I believe it's the strongest currency I got. And I also know, like, I don't know how many people face mortality. And I knew getting into this, it was gonna end, maybe because I had to face almost getting fired once. But I wasn't in this to hang around forever. And, I mean, instead of the void, it's not there anymore. I look back on, like, I had 23 years of being a pro wrestler. What? What? That's my vocation. Like, yeah, that I. I got to be a traveling carnival performer. Like, that's. And it. And I made that my career. How cool is that?

[Rachel Martin]

People paid you to do it. That's.

[John Cena]

Can you believe? I can't believe it. It brought us together. Like, this is amazing. Instead of a void, it's more like gratitude. I'm not trying to replace that chapter with anything. And I wouldn't. I wouldn't even plan it the way I planned it if I hadn't come to peace with it. I'm still filled with joy, love, curiosity. There's so much to do in the world. There's so much to do in life. Each day is mine to do whatever I want. I certainly was not like, acting, wrestling. This one just takes over because I don't control the opportunities I get in acting. It's not like, you know, I got a long cigarette holder in an old art deco Hollywood place going, like, ah, put this kid in the picture. I'm just waiting. I'm waiting for the phone to ring like everybody else, and one day it's not gonna ring. And I know that. So I love life, you know, and I'm grateful for the run that I had. I continue to be a member of the WWE family and try to contribute wisdom and pass on tricks of the trade where I can, where I'm useful, and when I'm not, I step aside and let the show go run its course, because that's what happens. The show was there before me. It is there after me. I should just be grateful to have a spot on the timeline. And one that is incredible. 23 years and 17 championships. I will take that.

[Rachel Martin]

John Cena, I want you to write a book of inspirational vignettes because that was just lovely. That was a lovely thing you just said about how to navigate your life and how to close chapters and feel grateful and not feel regret or longing for a different version of yourself.

[John Cena]

You know, I'm happy with the self that I see. Like, I'm happy with it. And I also know that that self is going to evolve. I know the things that I'm lucky enough to be able to do now at 49, they're going to change if. If life expectancy takes its course and nothing, no force majeure gets in the way. I'm going to be a different person at 55. I'm going to be a different person at 60, 65, 70, as you go along. And I guess I've had my share of looking back, going like, man, I used to be able to, and now I just am like, man, I get to. Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay, round two. Three new cards. Insights. One, Two or three?

[John Cena]

Dealer's choice.

[NPR Announcer]

Oh, my God.

[Rachel Martin]

John Cena. I can hear my editor being like, what, are we gonna let this stand? It's John Cena.

[John Cena]

I'm picking one. Dealer's choice.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay, I'm gonna ask this one. How comfortable are you with being alone?

[John Cena]

Very. Very.

[Rachel Martin]

Are you?

[John Cena]

That is not how I want to live my life. I want to live my life as a loving member of a team. I also cherish my alone time, I think, in a sense of longing for the person or people I love. I think absence does make the heart grow fonder in a lot of cases. And I think you need. For me, I need to not forget who I am. And a lot of that comes with alone. Now, when I say alone, it could be. Heck, it could be like, 20 minutes in the sauna or 5 minutes in cold water or stretching by myself for an hour at the end of the day, or waking up before everybody just to enjoy like 45 minutes with a warm cup of coffee. That's what I mean by alone time.

[NPR Announcer]

Yeah.

[John Cena]

Am I comfortable with no love and connection in my life? No, I would not want that life.

[Rachel Martin]

For some reason, I imagine just the life of a WWE wrestler. Being on a lot of planes.

[John Cena]

Correct.

[Rachel Martin]

And being you're with people, there's a lot of people managing you. But I imagine it being kind of lonely in some ways.

[John Cena]

How so? Let's talk about that.

[Rachel Martin]

Well, I guess I've never been a wrestler. You're such a. You're a rarefied kind of person. And you're the top of the pyramid. You're the talent. And everyone's managing, managing. And there's a lot of pressure and expectation on you. And sometimes that I imagine could feel lonely. But I guess if that wasn't your experience, maybe because you're always traveling with other people who are at your level and they are genuinely your friends.

[John Cena]

There is, there's a. Even still remains. Although the management side's increased a little bit, there still remains a deep fraternity and sisterhood within all performers. It was a lot less management than you think. We're responsible for a lot. That's why I loved the profession. No one manages you pretty much. It's a. It's a lot like stand up comedy if you're, if you're starting out, like not, not a stadium tour sellout stand up comic. I mean, like even at the highest level with me performing in sold out arenas, it's still like a. An upstart stand up comic. You are, you are responsible. So I like the fact that it creates a sense of independence. It also creates that sense of fraternity of you have your brothers and sisters who are going through the same thing with you and you can bond and have fun with them. And then I learned this through failure as well. My wife, she knew nothing about wrestling and we met by chance. She's not in the entertainment business at all. She's an engineer by trade. I say she's the brains of the operation.

[Rachel Martin]

I love this just for listeners. So, you know, I think you guys just met like a, like in real life, like an old school in a restaurant.

[John Cena]

What are you doing here? Hey, can I have your number? That sort of thing.

[Rachel Martin]

So cute.

[John Cena]

And through my previous failures in trying to be loving, I would carve out these safe spaces for myself. And it basically led me to be able to have the freedom to live a double life. And no one really got to know the full me. And in doing so, I probably didn't know the full me because I was one version of me and then another version of me. And there was a lot of selfishness of, like, man, I'm in, like, my late 20s. I want to kind of be a rock star. Like, this is all fun. Like, let's just see where it goes. So I put myself.

[Rachel Martin]

Not great for a long term, steady

[John Cena]

relationship, but my fault, like, I put myself there. A long term. Long term and steady. I don't know. There's always ups and downs. Right. A long term, loving relationship involves giving your whole self to the team, you know?

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. And making yourself vulnerable, Letting that person see, this is 360 of you.

[John Cena]

Yes. You're still interested because this is it, right? Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

It's not just like John Cena in the ring.

[John Cena]

Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

You know, awesome, strong, amazing performer guy. It's. It's all of you. Your flaws and your insecurities and that whole shebang.

[John Cena]

Yeah. And I just. I struggled with a lot of that. And a lot of it was literally, I just didn't want to mess up this dream. I was. I was able to try to try to connect, but I was always. It was always my own downfall of, like, I want to be a WWE Superstar more than anything else.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah.

[John Cena]

Now I want to be the best husband to my wife that I can more than anything else. So that, like, if that's the thing. Okay. Make all decisions based off that. My. My past is make all decisions based off of wwe. And that led me to tremendous opportunity in wwe. It just. Something has to give, you know?

[NPR Announcer]

Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

Three new cards.

[John Cena]

Okay. I can't do this choice. You chose number one. You can choose between two and three.

[Rachel Martin]

I'm going over here. How big of a role does fear have in your life?

[John Cena]

Hmm. So it's definitely there as a human being. It's definitely there. I think managed, certainly, like, fear of whatever life will deal with. Gosh. I simply have been very, very lucky in life. And every day that goes by, I realize more and more exponentially how lucky I am. So I think the fear of what's the worst that could happen wanes to man. Let's go out and try to do something good as far as, like, fear of spiders, ledges.

[Rachel Martin]

Are you afraid of spiders and ledges, Snakes, heights.

[John Cena]

Are you? Yeah. But then again, like, even. Even then I'll sit and ask myself, so why am I afraid of this? Like, why am I skeeved out, you know, Like, I think the ledges thing is the ledges and heights are. This, are the same thing. I'm a, I'm a professional fall down man. So I know it like, dude, didn't

[Rachel Martin]

you have to stand up on like the pillars of the ring? That's high.

[John Cena]

Yes, but that's also like I'll be able to walk away from this. But then you also know if it was like those three more feet, I can't. So again, like I think ledges and heights thing is like, ah, wouldn't want to take that spill because I know what taking a spill feels like. You know, I think a takeaway is like we, we certainly all have fear and we, we should, we should have fear.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah.

[John Cena]

I tend to try to, to talk about mine and figure it out. You know, man, I could have the fear. Like a fear of mine or trigger of mine is not feeling heard.

[Rachel Martin]

Not feeling heard.

[John Cena]

Yes, yes, man. That puts me in defense. I just. And I've worked hard to create far more of a balance there. But I think it's like I started not really as anybody's first pick as a professional and then somehow made it to every cut. And then finally it took years for people to kind of listen to me, even though I thought I had good ideas. And I ended up having some ideas that were good and, and kind of did good not only for myself, but everyone involved. So maybe there's a fear in there that like, oh, I'm not hurt or I'm not enough, you know, But I think this is something a lot of, a lot of folks struggle with and a lot of folks think. I just think, yeah, it's, it's okay to have fear.

[NPR Announcer]

Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. Especially when you approach it from curiosity. Yeah. As it sounds like you are too. It's like, why is this happening?

[John Cena]

Why is this.

[Rachel Martin]

Why am I feeling this way? Yeah. Okay, last one. In this round, we will do number two. 1, 2, 3, 2. Has ambition ever led you astray?

[John Cena]

So I'm going to ask you to use more words. What do you define by astray?

[Rachel Martin]

Well, it's a great pushback. Have you ever done a thing because it was going to get you somewhere in your career and you didn't like who you were when you were doing it? I guess that's the root of that question.

[John Cena]

So the answer to that is yes. And I'm faced with those all the time. I think we all are. Those are my most teachable moments and those are the ones I reflect on with guilt, borderline shame.

[Rachel Martin]

Really?

[John Cena]

Because you define your values and you define, you know, how you want to live. And if an opportunity comes where you're like, oh, man, this could be really good, but it's not who I am. Yeah, people see through that immediately. Immediately. And then you feel guilt of, like, IOUs or paper. IOUs are cool, but the currency you have is. Is your integrity is who you are. And you know, everything and everybody's got a price is a real comment. You just gotta. You gotta be accountable. That weight's heavy. It's heavy.

[Rachel Martin]

Is there an example you would feel comfortable sharing?

[John Cena]

I think one time I tried to get involved with an entrepreneurial social network startup and I didn't tell my boss. And we talk about everything. This was like, man, we're going to do this together. And in potentially being part of this startup, I would. My name's John Cena. So I would essentially be leveraging intellectual property. Yeah, that's a team decision.

[Rachel Martin]

This is when you were wrestling.

[NPR Announcer]

Yeah.

[John Cena]

And I, I love and trust my boss. He's far more than my boss.

[Rachel Martin]

Sorry, John, is this your agent or like.

[John Cena]

No, this is Vince McMahon.

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, oh, the big boss.

[John Cena]

The big boss.

[Rachel Martin]

Vince McMahon. Yeah.

[John Cena]

I was just trying to get more money. Simply. I. I have my own philosophy on social networks. I'm very limited in my use by design, so it's not something I'm interested in. Not too, not too fond of, like, limited access stuff. And this was. This was a curated idea that seemed nice, but I looked at the projections and, man, my boss found out. And to be honest, he was great. He was great. He, like, walked me through the, okay, this is the choice you've made. Let's walk through all the tentacles of what might happen. And in a moment where it was a direct violation of trust to somebody, I had worked years and he invested years in trusting me too. So it was a moment where he could have just gone nuclear. Because trust takes years to build and moments to destroy. And he didn't. He didn't. He had patience and tolerance and I think possibly as an entrepreneur himself, maybe try to put himself in my shoes and walked me through it. And like, it took five minutes or less to realize, like, I'm such an idiot. And I immediately called the company back and said, I'm out. This isn't for me.

[Rachel Martin]

And isn't it a lovely gift to have people in your life, whether it was Vince or your wife now, who can see around your blind spots? Right. Like, sometimes we can't see what's good for us. And you need other people who you love and trust to be like, I don't think this is you. I don't think it is.

[John Cena]

I think I really do like that perspective also. We can't see it all. The term blind spots, I think, is incredible. And everyone has a different perspective. And the folks I have around me, no one shares the same. Like, it's almost as if it's a. If we all say yes to an idea, it's a no, something's wrong. Like, we're all missing something.

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, interesting.

[John Cena]

Our conversations are all, have we seen it from this side? Have we seen it from this side? And, yeah, the environment that, like, yo, that's okay. Whatever your. Whatever your perspective is, it's okay. That's why we have the time to talk about this. Yeah, so that's. I love the term blind spot. I think that's very appropriate.

[NPR Announcer]

Support for NPR comes from IBM. On Smart Talks with IBM, host Malcolm Gladwell speaks with leaders who are pushing the boundaries of AI and technology in partnership with IBM.

[John Cena]

Hello. Hello. I'm Malcolm Gladwell, host of Smart Talks with IBM. I sat down with Alon Cohen, who leads research and development at ufc, to discuss the complexity of using technology to analyze fight data.

[Alon Cohen]

With kick to the head, it makes contact with the outside of my arm, which I brought up. In our world, that's a blocked strike. Yeah, but teaching a computer what exactly that means and when and how, like, when my arm is up, that's a block. When my arm is down and hits my shoulder, that's not. It's those nuances that proved incredibly difficult for machines to be able to handle for a very, very long time.

[John Cena]

That is, until IBM entered the Octagon.

[NPR Announcer]

Listen to Smart Talks with IBM wherever you get your podcasts. Support for this podcast and the following message come from Strawberry Me. Be honest. Are you happy with your job? Are you stuck in a job you've outgrown or never wanted in the first place? Are your reasons for staying really just excuses for not leaving? Let a career coach from Strawberry Me help you get unstuck. Discover the benefits of having a dedicated career coach in your Corner, and get 50% off your first coaching session at Strawberry Me. NPR,

[Rachel Martin]

John Cena. We're at round three.

[John Cena]

Okay.

[Rachel Martin]

Beliefs. Three new cards. All right, one, two, or three?

[John Cena]

Starting with dealer's choice. This is the last one I'll use, I promise.

[Rachel Martin]

I feel so much power. No one really gives me this kind of control. I'm really into it. Okay, let's see.

[John Cena]

Wow.

[Rachel Martin]

These are all pretty good. All right. I'm gonna ask. This one sure is heavy. How do you think your life should be judged?

[John Cena]

However people want, I think they have the freedom to have their own perspective. And each day I try to work hard to be the person I say I am for my own sound sleep. But as far as people judging how I live my life, I wouldn't want them to tell me how to live mine. And they have earned the freedom by waking up each day to do or say whatever they want about me.

[Rachel Martin]

And that stuff falls off you. I mean, have you always been able to get that kind of dis.

[John Cena]

No. No, I'm not. That is not easy. And again, I know what I signed up for. There's a whole lot of negativity out there. There is. And anytime, you know, personally, anytime, I feel, you know, you try to get something going, there's. There's always a criticism out there. Yet that's the world I signed up for. I am a performer to put my art out into the world, or I am a business person who needs to put product out for consumer consumption. I'm not allowed to tell them how to think about it. They're allowed to tell me how to think about it so I can change it and curate it according to supply and demand. Like, that's the fun of playing dress up. It's not all the highs. You gotta deal with that stuff. So it's. No, that stuff does not roll off my back. I love it because it allows me to be open to criticism. It allows me to consider the source. It allows me to deal with negativity. It keeps me grounded, it keeps me humble. It humiliates me, it keeps me vulnerable. If I am struggling with it, I can lean on people I love and say, like, my feelings are hurt. And this is a safe space to talk about that. It is not easy, but. And it doesn't roll off my back. And it's there. It's part of the. It's part of the existence. But I don't care how people judge me. Sorry, I should. I do care, because if I had apathy towards life, I think I would lose curiosity. People have earned the right to judge me however they want. I think that's better said.

[Rachel Martin]

I get it. Yeah. Also, it's just very liberating to be at that stage.

[John Cena]

You know, it's a lot of age.

[Rachel Martin]

Age happens. It helps with age.

[John Cena]

Let's just say time on the track helps. And it does.

[Rachel Martin]

How old are you?

[John Cena]

I will be. I'm 49. I'll be 50 next year.

[Rachel Martin]

It's great over here. Let me just tell you on the other side of 50.

[John Cena]

I can't wait.

[Rachel Martin]

It's pretty good.

[John Cena]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

It's pretty good. I think you're gonna like it. Three new cards.

[John Cena]

I will take number three.

[Rachel Martin]

Three. I thought you were gonna tell me that you were gonna invite me to your birthday party, and then you didn't say that, so then I was disappointed.

[John Cena]

It's still a ways away, so I'm still working on the guest list. You still got a couple questions left to lose your invite.

[Rachel Martin]

It's true. It's true. It could all go off the rails. And the last two questions and my invitation gets lost in the mail. Okay, 1, 2, or 3? Sorry, you picked. What did you pick? 3. Have your feelings about death changed over time?

[John Cena]

Yes, I will die. And I think about that often. And I never. You know what? I always used to say it out loud, like, as a young person again, having fun with life, like, oh, I'm not really gonna make it till I'm 40. Or if I make it till I'm 40, I've overstayed my welcome. That was just cannon fodder. And to do things that were like dopamine hits, like, that is just a way to say that. To be like, this is okay to do because I'm not gonna make it till 40. Right?

[NPR Announcer]

Yeah.

[John Cena]

Now my perspective has changed that we all die. We are all going to die. And it gives me gratitude towards the now. It makes me excited for things down the road. It allows me to reflect with great feelings. It's why I don't have a void for retirement. I have love and gratitude and thanks if. If my day gets a little gritty, I'm alive. You know, when we start saying, like, what's the worst that could happen? You could not be alive, you know, And I know life will deal me a whole set of challenges. And the challenges will get different exponentially as the days go on and the birthdays pass. I think about my mortality often, and I encourage folks to do more of that. And not from a morbid sense, from a factual sense. Yeah, we all think we got all the time in the world. And I think when you realize you don't, it helps you appreciate the time you have, at least from my perspective.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, for sure. Same. I also wonder, I wanted to ask you about your involvement with the Make a Wish foundation because especially in the. Under the architecture of this question, in particular about death, though, because these are kids, first of all, you have, like, the Guinness World Record or Something of most Make a Wish visits. I mean, it's really incredible, John, the amount of time that you've given to kids who are having a hard time, struggle. And I imagine some of those kids who you have spent time with have died, have passed on. And that is the toughest of things to watch children suffer. And I wonder how that has impacted your view of living and your thoughts about dying.

[John Cena]

So that's a great question. Again, there is not a better chin check on, like, how bad are my problems? Than to go into someone really fighting, climbing a steep hill and when that. When that person is like a young person, and to see them so full of joy and excitement and hope, even with that steep climb, it has made a world of difference in my life, even when I didn't understand why it was making a world of difference. I think at a younger age, I very much appreciated always being involved with Make a Wish. It was only as I began to truly lean into mortality, I would say, last decade, that really had a profound impact on. We. We do have a select amount of time, and that's beyond our control, period. And you can still have joy and you can still have excitement, and you can still be curious and you can still have an imagination, and you can be grateful for all those things. And that's. Man, a lot of the questions are kind of like leading the witness. Questions of like, oh, this must be tough for you, or, man, it must have been so hard. My experience with Make a Wish was incredible. Incredible. Getting a lot of letters after the visits explaining circumstances. Those are emotional to read. It doesn't slight the moments that I've had and the excitement that I've shared. Those were so fun. I don't know. They just. It was. It was a stout reminder to be grateful for life and an easy, easy way to be. Like, man, whatever I'm carrying, I just need to lighten that because, yeah, my hill's not as steep as this one, and they're rocking. They are here to have fun. So let's. Let's see if we can change the lens. You know, inspiration through those and meeting so many young minds who are so inspiring to me and families who are so inspiring to me, they don't even realize it.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. Last one, last one.

[John Cena]

Okay.

[Rachel Martin]

One, two, three. What you got?

[John Cena]

I want to say dealer's choice, but your producer's going to kill me. We'll go number two.

[Rachel Martin]

What truth guides your life more than any other?

[John Cena]

That's a good one. The powerful play goes on. We get to contribute a verse. It's pretty good. And then again, the power of play, the powerful play goes on. We get to contribute a verse. O me, O life. Whitman. So I don't know, like. So truth in itself is. It's possessive. Truth is constantly changing. We're constantly finding out more. As the facts change, I change my mind. What we know today will be outdated tomorrow, and tomorrow, today's answer is wrong, but it's right right now, and that's okay. That's fine. We don't have to. We can evolve. We can change. I think that's the truth. The only truth is the constant of change and the fact that we're mortal. And until those things are fixed, that's it. The only constant is change. And we are all renters.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay, John Cena. We end the show the same way every time with a trip in our memory time machine. Okay. In the memory time machine, you revisit one moment from your past. It's not a moment you want to change anything about. It's just a moment you'd like to linger in a little longer.

[John Cena]

Sure.

[Rachel Martin]

What moment do you choose?

[John Cena]

Oh, my goodness. My wedding day. Yeah, the week was great. The lead up was great. The day, it felt like it lasted a while. Man, it was just such a great day. Such a. Such a great day.

[Rachel Martin]

I'm sure there were many moments. Can you give me one?

[John Cena]

Yeah. Us eating chocolate chip cookies way in the cheap seats, just looking at everybody having such a good time. Because our mission statement was, this day is about us. It's about allowing our friends to hold us accountable if we hit tough times as a team. And in doing that, we are going to be as hospitable as we can and try to create an environment of love and joy. Because that's. If it starts with us, it'll just permeate. And towards the end of the night, we're just each eating a wonderful chocolate chip cookie to look at each other and be. They're having a lot of fun out there. This is such a good moment.

[Rachel Martin]

John Cena, you can see him in the new film Little Brother. It was such a pleasure to do this with you.

[John Cena]

Thank you. Thanks so much.

[Rachel Martin]

Hey, thanks so much for listening. It has been a little bit since I've asked, so I'm gonna ask again. If you love Wildcard, please leave us a rating and review wherever you listen. It really helps other people find our show. And hey, it also makes our team feel great. We really appreciate it. This episode was produced by Mitra Arthur and Lee Hale. It was edited by Dave Planchard and mastered by by Andy Huether. Wildcard's executive producer is Yolanda Sangweni and our theme music is by Ramtin Arablouei. You can reach out to [e-mail] and we will shuffle the deck and be back with more next week. Talk to you then.

[John Cena]

This message comes from Babbel. Babbel's conversation based language technique teaches you useful words and phrases to get you speaking quickly about the things you actually talk about in the real world with lessons handcrafted by over 200 languages experts and voiced by real native speakers. Start speaking with Babel today. Get up to 55% off your Babbel subscription right now at babbel.com NPR spelled B A B-B-E-L.com NPR Rules and Restrictions may apply.

[NPR Announcer]

This message comes from Mint Mobile. If you're tired of spending hundreds on big wireless bills, bogus fees and free perks, Mint Mobile might be right for you with plans starting from 15 bucks a month. Shop plans [e-mail] Switch upfront payment of 45 dollars for 3 month 5 gigabyte plan required. New customer offer for first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details.