Jamie Lee Curtis

Summary

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Wild Card with Rachel Martin: Jamie Lee Curtis

Date: December 11, 2025
Podcast: Wild Card with Rachel Martin (NPR)
Guest: Jamie Lee Curtis

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Overview

In this episode, Rachel Martin invites iconic actress and author Jamie Lee Curtis to play the Wild Card conversation game, prompting deeply personal reflections, humorous asides, and candid insights about life, beauty, aging, love, and what it means to live a good life. Known for her honesty and wit, Curtis shares vivid memories from her childhood, discusses her relationship with her famous parents, opens up about her own insecurities and aspirations, and reveals the hard-won wisdom she's gained over decades in Hollywood and in life.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Vulnerability and Unexpected Kindness

• Opening Moment: Jamie Lee Curtis describes having a tough morning, only to receive a grounding, intimate gesture from a stranger in an NPR bathroom, which moved her to tears.
  • Quote: “She said, may I put my hand on your chest?...And I, of course, started sobbing. …I felt like I was in It’s a Wonderful Life and that Clarence the angel had just landed in the bathroom at NPR.” (03:11)
• Memorable Note: The stranger turned out to be Brendan Fraser’s groomer, illustrating how moments of grace occur in unexpected places.

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2. Childhood Memories and Food as a Love Language

• Cereal Obsession:
  • “If you put me on a desert island and all I could have is cereal, I would be fine.” (05:28)
  • Fondness for “Frosted Flakes, Cheerios, Captain Crunch” (05:43)
  • Connections between childhood eating habits, parental neglect, and show business upbringing.
  • Humorous note on her husband, Christopher Guest:
    • “The only meal Christopher Guest knows how to make is a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. …That is our love language.” (06:17)

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3. Inheritance of Beauty and Hollywood Origins

• Mother’s Influence: Jamie Lee reflects on her mother, Janet Leigh’s beauty and how it shaped her view of self and the world.
  • “I refer to her at the beginning of it as the most beautiful thing I’d ever seen. My mama.” (08:16)
  • Discusses Janet Leigh’s discovery by silent film star Norma Shearer, which set Jamie Lee’s life course in motion (10:12).
  • Complexity of growing up with a Hollywood icon as a mother and the shifting roles for women in Hollywood (Ingenue → Leading Lady → Character Actress).
    • “I was a character actress all along. Is the truth.” (13:19)

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4. Lessons from First Jobs and Hollywood Beginnings

• First Acting Gig:
  • “My first job was two lines on Quincy, an episode of Quincy M.E. …I was a woman in a dressing room, and he comes looking for somebody, and …I am standing there in a bra. Natch.” (14:28)
  • Jamie Lee did not feel nervous—“None of that scares me. ...You could put me in front of 20 million people live, it would not scare me.” (16:13)
• Not Originally Planning to Be an Actor:
  • “I never thought I’d be an actress ever in a million years. I thought I’d be a police officer.” (17:24)
  • Struggled with the school system; thought becoming a cop would be her path due to her “good girl” nature and affinity for rules.

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5. Emotional vs. Intellectual Outsider

• Feeling Like an Outsider:
  • “I am an emotional. I am not an intellectual. …That doesn’t mean I’m not smart. That just means I’m not an intellectual. I’m not a wonk.” (28:43, 29:09)
  • Shares a story from a Hemingway book club about lacking the context to understand characters’ trauma (30:16–31:51)
  • Realization: “When I am in a group of intellectuals, I feel very uncomfortable because I don’t have the context. I need the context in order to really absorb.” (31:51)
• Later in Life Self-Acceptance:
  • “To thine own self be true. ...The freedom that self knowledge gives you, that is …I’m having the flower show.” (32:29–33:25)

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6. Wisdom on Long Marriage and Holding Contradictions

• On Love & Marriage (with Christopher Guest):
  • “The snarky answer is don’t leave. The unexpected answer is...have two ideas at the same time. Be able to hate them and love them at the same time.” (35:01–35:52)
  • “Love is big. And love has to be able to contain all of it.” (36:04)
  • The importance of holding disappointment and affection together, and how this is rarely articulated:
        - “I think what happens is when people feel really angry and hatred toward the other person, they’re like, oh, I gotta get out of this. And the truth is, you don’t.” (36:16)
• Freedom as the Ultimate Goal (quoting Steinbeck):
  • “I believe that the free exploring mind of the individual human is the most valuable thing in the world. …That’s what I believe. Freedom.” (38:08)

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7. Ella McKay and Career Renaissance

• On New Film with James L. Brooks:
  • “I waited my whole life for James L. Brooks…to have a letter come to my house that said, Jamie, I’ve been working on this script for years. We start shooting in the fall. I would love it if you would play Helen.” (22:11)
  • Joy in receiving late-in-life artistic opportunities: “I’ve now had in the last eight years the kind of opportunities I always hoped I would be able to have, but that I don’t control.” (22:46)
• On Forgiveness & Recovery (in film and life):
  • “Clear away the wreckage of your past…It’s an obstacle in your path. Move it out of your way.” (26:57–27:05)
  • “You are not responsible for making the boulder disappear…But you can clear it away.” (27:34–27:47)

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8. Living a Good Life and Lessons for the Next Generation

• What It Means to Live Well:
  • “That you live a life trying to leave the world better than when you were in it. ...That it had an impact on other people and that you made the world [better].” (41:32–42:24)
• On Her Children’s Book ‘Is There Really a Human Race?’:
  • Story inspired by her daughter Ruby’s anxiety over competition:
        - “She ran up to me and she went, is there really a human race?” (43:14)
  • Pulls lines from her book as life advice:
    • “Sometimes it’s better not to go fast. There’re beautiful sights to be seen when you’re last. Shouldn’t it be that you just try your best and that’s more important than beating the rest? ...So take what’s inside you and make big bold choices. And for those who can’t speak for themselves, use bold voices and make friends and love well and bring art to this place and make the world better for the whole human race.” (45:15–46:05)

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9. Aging, Truth, and Refusing to Hide

• Anticipating the Future:
  • “What do you look forward to when you’re older?”
    • “Getting older. …Just more. …Even thinner skin, you know? Cause the thin skin thing is super fun.” (47:08)
• Rejecting Beauty Myths:
  • “You can’t hide the truth. …We are who we are. …When I say I don’t care, I don’t care about hiding the truth anymore.” (49:33–49:47)
  • On posing in underwear in More magazine, pre-Photoshop era, to show what she truly looked like (48:58–49:10)

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10. Singular Childhood Memory: Connection with Her Father

• Time Machine Memory:
  • Jamie Lee Curtis recalls being 12, swimming with her father Tony Curtis in Sardinia—a rare and cherished moment of pride and undivided attention from him.
    • “That moment in the water...the pride on his face that I was the brave one...I’ll never forget that moment.” (53:46–54:43)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Accepting Life’s Messiness:
  • “Life is life on life’s terms, right?” (02:34, Jamie Lee Curtis)
• On Her Status in Hollywood:
  • “I never was truly an ingenue and not really truly a leading lady, but I’ve become a bitch of a character actress because the truth is, I was a character actress all along.” (01:31 & 13:19, Jamie Lee Curtis)
• On Marital Longevity:
  • “The unexpected answer is...have two ideas at the same time. Be able to hate them and love them at the same time.” (35:45, Jamie Lee Curtis)
• On Individual Freedom:
  • “And this I believe: that the free exploring mind of the individual human is the most valuable thing in the world. …And this I must fight against any idea, religion, or government which limits or destroys the individual.” (38:06, quoting John Steinbeck)
• On Living Well:
  • “So take what’s inside you and make big, bold choices. And for those who can’t speak for themselves, use bold voices...” (45:15, quoting from her book)
• On Truth and Aging:
  • “You can’t hide the truth. ...We are who we are. And that’s what I have tried when I say I don’t care. I don’t care about hiding the truth anymore.” (49:33)
• Vivid Parental Memory:
  • “That moment in the water...I was the only one in the world he had his eyes on and pride in me. …I felt connected to a guy who was magic.” (54:30, Jamie Lee Curtis on swimming with her father)

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Major Segments & Approximate Timestamps

• Opening and Setting the Tone (00:18–05:11): Jamie’s rough morning & chance encounter
• Memories Round – Childhood & Beauty (05:11–13:58): Food, family, Hollywood history
• Work and First Jobs (14:06–19:25): Acting debut, alternate career ambitions
• Ella McKay and Professional Fulfillment (20:50–28:25): The joy of a James L. Brooks letter, acting careers, themes of forgiveness
• Relationship with Outsider Status (28:29–33:34): Emotional vs. intellectual, lifelong self-discovery
• Aging and Love (33:34–41:13): Marriage, contradictions, quoting Steinbeck
• Living a Good Life & Children’s Wisdom (41:14–47:02): Parenting, legacy, life lessons
• On Aging Authentically (47:02–50:52): Cultural beauty standards, truth
• Memory Time Machine (51:55–55:56): Deep parental connection

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Tone & Style

Joyful, irreverent, candid, philosophical, and deeply human. Jamie Lee Curtis’s vulnerability and sharp humor, paired with Rachel Martin’s warmth and curiosity, makes the episode feel like an intimate but unfiltered conversation between friends. There’s laughter, occasional cursing, pop cultural riffs, and repeated returns to the necessity of truth, freedom, and being fully oneself—right to the “thin-skinned,” unflinching end.

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

This episode is a warm, insightful, and often hilarious masterclass in authenticity, resilience, and living out loud. Jamie Lee Curtis brings the wisdom of her years—with all their “boulders” and hard-earned freedom—to life, leaving listeners with memorable advice on growing older with grace, making art, being brutally honest about both love and self, and the importance of leaving the world a little better than you found it.

Transcript

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

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[Rachel Martin]

A heads up, there's a bit of cursing in this episode. Hey, everybody, I am just popping in because we want to know what you think Wildcard is doing well and how we could improve. If you can please take a short anonymous survey at NPR. Do.

All one word. It takes less than 10 minutes. And you'd be doing us a huge favor by filling it out. We'll also be giving three randomly selected respondents a $25 gift card as a thank you. Again, that survey link is npr.org wildcardsurvey you can also click on the link in the comments or in our episode description. Thank you so much. What do you look forward to when you're older?

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

Getting older. Yeah. Just, just getting older. Just more, you know, even thinner skin, you know, Cause the thin skin. Cause the thin skin thing is super fun.

[Rachel Martin]

I'm Rachel Martin, and this is Wild Card, the show where cards control the conversation.

Each week, my guest answers questions about their life, questions pulled from a deck of cards. They're allowed to skip one question and to flip one back on. My guest this week is Jamie Lee Curtis.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

I never was truly an ingenue and not really truly a leading lady, but I've become a bitch of a character actress because the truth is, I was a character actress all along.

[Rachel Martin]

I'm just gonna get this out of the way at the top when I grow up. I want to be Jamie Lee Curtis. I don't mean I want to be a cultural icon with leading roles in some of the most important movies and shows of our time. Halloween, everything, everywhere, all at once. The bear. And yes, true. L. No, I want to be the Jamie Lee Curtis who calls BS on female beauty standards and calls out unfairness, the one who keeps herself grounded while lifting other people up. And the Jamie Lee Curtis who, with each passing year, keeps expanding her creative life. Her newest movie is called Ella McKay. And I'm so very, very happy to welcome Jamie Lee Curtis to Wildcard. Hi, lady.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

This is just what happened to me. I'm just letting you know I had a hard morning. I might have been crying in the car. It's all good.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

It's raining here. Life is life on life's terms, right? Yeah. And I, you know, having a minute. Yep. And I went in the bathroom and this woman walks in. Beautiful. Immediately, I Wanted her sweater, but whatever, you know, not covetous. And.

You know, she.

Whatever. And then she was washing her hands, and I simply turned and looked at her and smiled at her and said hi or something. Anyway, next thing I know, she looked at me, and she was like. She came right up to me, and.

[Rachel Martin]

She was like, are you okay?

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

And I said, I'm having a hard, you know, just life on life's terms moment. And she put her. She said, may I put my hand on your chest? And she started.

Tapping and pulling on my arm and talking about where pain lives in your body and how you. Anyway, And I, of course, started sobbing. And it turned so at the. And I'm also trying to put makeup on. And, you know, it was a thing. And as I. And so I said to her, I thanked her and I said, who are you? Yeah, right. She goes, I'm Sonia. And I said.

Okay. Hi. Hi, Sonia. And I kissed her forehead.

And then she left. And I just. I felt like I was in.

It's a Wonderful Life. And that Clarence the angel had just landed in the bathroom at npr. And I walked out, and I'm a little shocked. And there are some women sitting around because somebody's doing an interview. And the woman from Disney, who I'm friends with, Sarah, said, they're part of us. And I was like. And Sonia was sitting. I said, wait, I don't understand. You don't work here. She said, she's Brendan Fraser's groomer.

Okay. She and I. My response was, wait, you're in show business?

Like, what that was.

[Rachel Martin]

She may have another calling.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

Crazy.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

She's just one of those people. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Okay, I'm ready.

[Rachel Martin]

First three cards. This is the memories round. I hold them up, you pick 1, 2, or 3.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

Straight down the middle.

[Rachel Martin]

Straight down the middle. Number two.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

Yep.

[Rachel Martin]

Is there a meal from your childhood that brings back strong memories?

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

Cereal. All cereal. Every brand of cereal. And if you put me on a desert island and all I could have is cereal, I would be fine.

[Rachel Martin]

What were the kinds of cereal?

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

Frosted Flakes, Cheerios, Captain Crunch.

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, your parents let you have the sugar kind?

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

Well, duh. I mean, A, I'm from show business, B, my parents were drug addict, alcoholics, and C, in the day, that's what they fed children, right? That's what we fed our children. Either that or a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. And I mean old school, like white bread, you know, jiffy.

[Rachel Martin]

And, you know, I still make one for my children for lunch, so I still make one. Another Time.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

I will tell you. I've been married 41 years. The only meal Christopher Guest knows how to make is a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. And there have been a couple times where he has presented me with a PB and J. Oh, love that. That is our love language is PB and J.

[Rachel Martin]

So he doesn't pour you when you've had a hard day. You come home, you don't drink wine. Does he pour you a nice bowl of cereal?

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

I'm a granola fan.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

Okay.

[Rachel Martin]

You've stepped up your cereal game, Jamie.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

Well, yeah. I mean, you have to evolve as a human. We all need to change. Yeah. So, yeah, I'm a serial girl.

[Rachel Martin]

One, two or three?

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

I thought we already did two. So these are you added cards?

[Rachel Martin]

No, there are three new cards that I just pick up.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

This is a whole new category.

[Rachel Martin]

No, same memories. It's just three new cards. Just let it wash over you.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

I'm going so with this right now, I'm so in the zone. I'm going down the middle again, too. You know, two is my lucky number. My birthday is 1122. Two has always been. Yeah, so two has always been a number for me, so. Oh, go on, continue. Number two. I'm ready. Here I go. Memories.

[Rachel Martin]

What's something early in life that made you appreciate beauty?

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

My mother. Ah. My mother. I wrote. I'm never gonna write a book, but I write books for children. But I'll never write a memoir. But I did.

I wrote when magazines used to exist. There was a magazine called More Magazine. Originally, it was a magazine for women over 50. Then they took that part away, and then they took the magazine away. But I wrote an appreciation. After my mother died, I wrote an appreciation of her called Bye Bye Beauty because she.

[Rachel Martin]

Janet Leigh. We should just say Janet Lee.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

This is Janet Leigh, and she starred in. In the movie Bye Bye Birdie. And I wrote an appreciation of her called Bye Bye Beauty. And I refer to her at the beginning of it as the most beautiful.

Thing I'd ever seen. My mama. I mean, just incredible beauty. So my mommy, I also.

[Rachel Martin]

That is my answer to this question too, is my mother. But I also have a very specific memory that I attach to that. Like, I actually do remember a moment. I've talked about it before on the show. She had a traffic ticket and she.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

Was going to traffic court. Wow. And that's your memory of her moment. Wow.

[Rachel Martin]

I do remember being very young and looking up at her and just thinking, you're the most beautiful person I've ever seen. And when you talk about your mother being beautiful, is there a look? Is there a moment, an outfit?

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

So here it is. So this is the picture that I actually used in the piece. I don't know. Can you see it?

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, yeah.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

That was like they were camping or something.

[Rachel Martin]

They're camping and she looks that good.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

They were camping and she looks like that. I know. Yeah, I know, I know, I know. Oh, listen, I could. I could. So just so you know, the history of my mommy. My mother was discovered.

By the silent film star Norma Shearer. My mother was born Jeanette Helen Morrison from Merced, California. Impoverished parents. My grandfather was like a night manager at a motel where he was the front office manager at a ski motel, like a ski lodge. And.

When Norma Shearer, who was married to a professional skier named Marty Arroger, and when they were checking out or leaving the hotel, my grandfather had a photograph of his daughter, my mother, on his desk. And it was this picture.

And he said, Norma Shearer said to my grandfather, Fred Morrison said, oh, she's lovely. Who's that? And he said, that's my daughter, Jeanette. And she said, may I have that picture? I would like to send it to Lou Wasserman, who ran MCA in Hollywood. Wow. And, wow. She took it back to California and they called my mother. And my mother flew for the first time in her life down to Los Angeles and she screen tested opposite an actor at the time was named Van Johnson. No who Today? And got the lead in a movie. And my mother became Janet Leigh's Wild. I did not know because of that photograph.

[Rachel Martin]

She really was just discovered out of the.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

She totally discovered by Norma Shearer. Wow. So there would be no way I would ever be sitting here with you talking about memories were it not for that moment, that photo happening. And it was.

[Rachel Martin]

You said Jeanette, were you?

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

My mother's name was Jeanette. Jeanette J E A N E. Oh, yeah. Oh, of course they changed it. My mother.

[Rachel Martin]

Jeanette's not that complicated to say.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

My mother was Jeanette Helen Morrison and they made her Janet Leigh. And my father was Bernard Schwartz and they made him Tony Curtis. Yeah, heard him. Yeah, me too.

[Rachel Martin]

Did her beauty have an impact on you otherwise, besides just.

Admiration?

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

I mean, that's a hard sort of example to have growing up. When you don't feel beautiful, you feel kind of cute at best. So sure, you know.

[Rachel Martin]

Did she wear it lightly?

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

She didn't. Oh, she was naturally beautiful. My God, she was just gorgeous. She was just a beautiful person and she was a loving person. And Cheerful and very lucky and sort of shocked that she got to have this life that she got to have and.

[Rachel Martin]

But she understood that it was not her everything.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

Her looks. Oh, no. Well.

You know, women in that. Particularly in that generation, your looks were everything. You know, when you were an ingenue, you were an ingenue. And then a leading lady, you know, I think she.

I think it would have been harder for her to become a character actress, which is really the three. You know, there's your three. You with the three cards. You know, you're an ingenue, you're a leading lady, then you're a character actress. And I've gotten to be all three, weirdly enough, even though I never was truly an ingenue and not really truly a leading lady. But I've become a bitch of a character actress because the truth is, I was a character actress all along. Is the truth. Is the truth.

They just didn't know it.

Okay. Okay. More. You don't even have to hold the three up. Just pick up the middle one.

[Rachel Martin]

You want the two?

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

I want the two. It's always gonna be two. I'm just gonna tell you right now.

[Rachel Martin]

It's so interesting, the people who choose to do that. You and Ann Patchett, by the way.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

Well, Ann Patchett. Don't even start with me. How about Parnassus Books?

[Rachel Martin]

How about it?

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

I. How about Parnassus Books? Come on. Okay, okay. 2.

[Rachel Martin]

What's something you took away from your first job?

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

My first job was two lines on Quincy, an episode of Quincy M E. The Doctor. The Doctor that. Well, he wasn't a doctor. He was an Emmy. So he was a. He was a coroner.

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, that's right. Yes, that's right.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

What was that actor's name on Quincy? Emmy. Oh, great. Now I'm having a senior moment. No, no. Who played Quincy? Not Jack Klugman. No.

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, Jack Klugman, my producer. Just Jack Klugman.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

Look at me. Say, jack Klugman. Jack Klugman. Yeah. Jack Klugman. Oh, thank God.

[Rachel Martin]

So you had.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

Wow.

[Rachel Martin]

You had two lines.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

I did.

[Rachel Martin]

I mean, was your.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

I was a woman in a dressing room, and he comes looking for somebody, and he comes into the dressing room and pulls the curtain, and I am standing there in a bra.

Natch. And.

He says, I look shocked, and he apologizes. And I think my first line was, you won't find what you're looking for here, mister. And then he goes out of the thing, and then he talks to somebody else. And then the end of the scene is Me walking out saying.

You know, you should be locked up or something, like, I'm snarky with him, and then whatever. So I don't think I took anything except a paycheck, a career, you know, it worked.

[Rachel Martin]

You delivered your two lines.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

I did.

[Rachel Martin]

Was there any part of you, anyone's first job is a little nerve wracking, like you're showing up?

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

You don't know?

[Rachel Martin]

No. You were not racked by nerves?

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

Not at all.

[Rachel Martin]

Tell me why.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

I don't. That's. None of that scares me. None of that scares me. You could put me in front of 20 million people live, it would not scare me.

[Rachel Martin]

But didn't I. You dropped out of college, right?

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

To become. I can't spell college. I mean, I know there are two Ls.

And I think they're together.

[Rachel Martin]

You took a big risk. Were you just that imbued with self confidence that you're like, it's gonna be fine.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

I just was never gonna be an actor. And someone who was a tennis teacher, a man named Chuck Binder, who I knew, who taught tennis at a friend of mine's court, said to me, hey, I was home from college at Christmas my freshman year. And he said, hey, they're looking for Nancy Drew. I manage actors now, by the way. He's a tennis teacher and he manages actresses. Cause that's Los Angeles. Well, that's Hollywood, right? And he said, they're looking for Nancy Drew. You could be Nancy Drew. You should go up for it. And I said, sure. And I went up for it. Didn't get it. But I ended up staying in LA for a month and ended up signing a seven year contract at Universal. That's how I began.

[Rachel Martin]

So you had the contract in your pocket. So you sort of didn't care about the first job. You're like, I know, I'm gonna.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

Well, I didn't know. Contract in the pocket. I just was so shocked that I had a job and then that I had lines on a TV show. I never thought I'd be an actress ever in a million years. I thought I'd be a police officer. That was my, My intention.

[Rachel Martin]

Because you just needed something that was so different from your parents.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

No, because.

[Rachel Martin]

No, that wasn't it either.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

Oh, it had nothing to do with that at all. No, I just didn't know what I would do. I wasn't very smart or I didn't think I was very smart. School. The school delivery system didn't work for me. And I thought, I'm good with people. I like law and order. I like following rules. I'm a good girl. I thought I would make a great cop. So it's a calling, I think. I think.

[Rachel Martin]

No, it is. Completely.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

Completely.

[Rachel Martin]

It's just such a wildly different career path. It's just.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

Yeah. So bonkers. Yeah. But by the way, career apparently has two Rs. Am I correct? Right? Career.

[Rachel Martin]

You're freaking me out. Yes, but they are separated.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

No, they're not.

[Rachel Martin]

Yes, they are. C A, R, E, E, R. That's two R's.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

Oh, there are two E's. There's two E's. Oh, there's two E's. See, I knew there was two of something.

[Rachel Martin]

And two R's. Not consecutive.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

Antibiotics. Listen, antibiotics, Velcro and spell check are my three favorite inventions. And the bandolier, which is the phone case that allows you to carry. Your phone.

Is handy.

[Rachel Martin]

And antibiotics. Very handy.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

Antibiotics, Velcro.

The bandolier and spell check.

[Rachel Martin]

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[Rachel Martin]

Now we're going to pull out of the game for a second. You want to talk about your movie?

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

Listen, here's what I will say to you. Ella McKay I've been an actress since I was 19 years old. I have obviously done all sorts of things. I sold everything From Hertz Rent a Car. I did commercials with O.J. simpson and Arnold Palmer, running through airports, jumping over suitcases as the female business executive. I sold legs, pantyhose. I sold Equal sweetener. I sold hitachi big screen TVs. I sold.

Cell phones. Cell phone service called Voice Stream Wireless, which became T Mobile. And they fired me and hired Shakira because she is more relatable than I am. Anyway.

Truth. Just truth. Yeah, yeah. And then I, for many years, sold Activia yogurt, which is a probiotic yogurt that helps you poop. Activia. Yeah, I did those commercials. So I've done a lot of things in my life. I've been in movies and television. I've written books for children. I have waited my whole life.

[Rachel Martin]

For.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

James L. Brooks, who directed Terms of Endearment, as Good As It Gets, Broadcast News. I have waited my whole life to have a letter come to my house that said, Jamie, I've been working on this script for years. We start shooting in the fall. I would love it if you would play Helen. I direct better than I handwrite. Jim. Wow.

[Rachel Martin]

I wondered.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

I waited my whole life.

[Rachel Martin]

That name was the difference for you.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

Waited my whole life. Truly. I've waited my whole life for opportunities. Now, I've now had in the last eight years the kind of opportunities that I always hoped I would be able to have, but that I don't control.

Whether they come or not. And the universe, the multiverse, excuse the pun.

Brought them to me. And I've waited my whole life. So James L. Brooks is the kind of film director and writer that makes the kind of movies that I love. They're smart, they're funny, they're relatable, and they're political. And they say something about us as human beings and how we think and feel. And at this moment in our collective consciousness as a country and a world where it feels very fractious to have a movie like Ella McKay come along, which is a movie about this idealistic, beautiful young politician.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, we need to do a little plot.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

Yes. She's a young politician. So she's a young politician. She gets to be the governor. And she becomes governor because the current governor gets a position in the current political, you know, federal administration.

[Rachel Martin]

Beautifully played by Albert Brooks.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

Albert Brooks plays the governor and Ella McKay becomes governor. And she comes from a very complicated family, as we all do, and she is married in a complicated relationship, like many people, and she's conflicted, and it's beautifully portrayed by Emma Mackey. And I Get to play her Aunt Helen. Her Aunt Helen. Her mom has passed, and her Aunt Helen is that person in her corner that always tells her the truth and loves her unconditionally.

It's been really fun. Really fun.

[Rachel Martin]

There is a line that stuck with me from the movie, and I don't remember it, so it stuck with me, but I can't quote it directly.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

It's okay. You know what? But it was a problem. I didn't know there were two E's in Career. There you go. I would have sworn there were two Rs. So the fact that you can't remember the quote. What's the quote? I'll tell you what the line is.

[Rachel Martin]

It's near the end, and it's about the idea of forgiveness. And maybe it wasn't a line, it was an exchange, but the notion there is that it is not incumbent upon us to always grant or give forgiveness when it is asked for. And I thought that was. It was handled so well. It was beautifully put. And it's not a message. You get a lot in, like, heartwarming, lovely movies that come out around the holidays don't usually have a slightly complicated, more realistic morality to them. And I loved that just because.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

But that's James L. Brooks. Yeah. Yeah, that's James L. Brooks. That's what he does. Complicated morality, complicated family dynamics. And what you're talking about is a lifelong relationship that Ella has with her douchey father, who is played by Woody Harrelson. God bless. And played by him brilliantly because he is a flawed man. And what you're talking about is when you are in relationship with those people who you realize.

Are genuinely not interested really in the truth, but are interested in continuing a fantasy, you can choose yourself over them and you can move on. I'm in recovery for a very long time. And we have a phrase which is.

Clear away the wreckage of your past. Clear it away. It doesn't mean.

Disappear the wreckage of your. It's clear. It. It's an obstacle in your path. Move it out of your way. That doesn't mean it won't always be there, but it allows you to move forward, which is in any sort of recovery. How can you move forward as a human being if you're just trapped by the boulders of life on life's terms, blocking your way, whatever it is.

[Rachel Martin]

What a liberating idea. I've actually never heard that. What a liberating idea. So that you. You are not responsible for making the boulder disappear, because that feels overwhelming and impossible.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

And you Can't.

[Rachel Martin]

But you just. Yeah, and you can't.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

But you can clear it away well, and you clear it away with your own examination of yourself. And I'm not. This isn't like an analysis of recovery. It's just a process of moving forward in life, in whatever it is that is the obstacle in your life. And in Ella McKay's case, it happens to be her. Her douchey father, who is kind of blocking her, trying to block her, and has continually done so. You know, everybody needs an aunt Helen. Everybody.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay, so we're going to get back into the game. You ready? Round two, incense.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

Number two. Don't even pull three. Don't pull three. Just put the first two. Just pull it.

[Rachel Martin]

Fine.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

Number two. There you go. Number two.

[Rachel Martin]

When do you feel most like an outsider?

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

I am an emotional. I am not an intellectual.

I can spell intellectual. I think they're two Ls and I think they may be near each other, but I'm not sure I.

[Rachel Martin]

Are you sure you like that? Defining the binary that way?

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

Okay, I'll leave. It's really important to me because.

That doesn't mean I'm not smart. That just means I'm not an intellectual. I'm not a wonk. Here's an example. I was in a book group.

A woman named Julie Robinson used to run, probably still does, a group there. And she would hire a professor, and his name was Lynn Batten, a retired UCLA professor. And I contacted Lynn Batten and privately hired him to do a same similar idea. I grouped a bunch of people together and then we would zoom and Lynn would lecture for a while, and then we would all talk.

[Rachel Martin]

Wow.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

My point is, we read Hemingway, and I was so excited about reading Hemingway. Cause I hadn't read Hemingway, and I was very excited. And I. I don't remember if it was the Sun Also Rises or For Whom the Bell Tolls, but it was one of the earlier books that we read and there was bullfighting in it. And I remember when we started the group.

That Zoom, I said, since it was my kind of putting this whole thing together, I said, I don't know about everybody else, but I really struggled with these characters. This book, I was disappointed. I wanted to like it, so it was Hemingway, and I really wanted to like it, blah, blah, blah. And I was disappointed how much I didn't like these people. And Lynn Batten said, I need to put it in context for you. He said, this was right after World War I.

And he said, you've probably heard the term shell shocked, which is what happened today. We call it ptsd.

He said. Then it was called shell shock. And really what they were were scrambled people.

And it made me cry. And I felt so bad that I had judged these people in a way that hadn't. I hadn't understood the context of what they had been through. So, of course, they were sort of selfish and narcissistic and gluttonous. And, you know, that's the difference to me about being an emotional versus being an intellectual. And so when I am in a group of intellectuals, I feel very.

Uncomfortable because I don't have the context. I need the context in order to really absorb. And I find that.

[Rachel Martin]

But it was your emotional intelligence that unlocked that secondary meaning.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

And all of that is great. But the question was, what do you.

[Rachel Martin]

When do you feel most like an outsider?

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

And the outsider world, for me has always been. Which is why school didn't work for me. Cause the delivery system didn't work. It just didn't work for me.

[Rachel Martin]

But when did you come to understand this about yourself?

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

This morning in the bathroom with Sonia.

No, I mean, the epiphany is a, you know, to thine own self be true. You learn self knowledge, the freedom that self knowledge gives you. That is a. You know, I'm 67 years old in a week. I mean, I've learned how I learn. I've learned how I learn. You know, I am a late bloom. Jane Fonda said, I just got a humanitarian award from her, and she said, you're just like me. You're a late bloomer. But the only thing about being a late bloomer is you don't want to be. You don't want to miss the flower show. And I'm having. You know, I'm having the flower show. Like, I'm living the flower show. James L. Brooks wrote me a letter and said, will you play Helen? I'm living the flower show. You know.

See? Pick the middle.

[Rachel Martin]

Thank you for sharing that.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

So that's one. That's two. That's three. Take the two. There's three. I know you really want this one. Always. Boom.

[Rachel Martin]

Number two. Okay. I like your consistency. What has age taught you about love?

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

Age taught me about love.

Um, you know, I'm. I'm.

I've been married for a long time. Chris and I did an interview with Marlo, Thomas, and Phil.

For a book that they wrote about long marriage. And they interviewed all sorts of people, you know, all sorts of couples.

[Rachel Martin]

So this is Phil Donahue, who has since passed.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

This is a long time ago when you did eight years ago or whatever.

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, he hasn't been gone that long.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

Okay. I don't. I mean. Oh, yeah. I mean, this is. This is eight years ago. Okay.

Don't make me ask Siri anything. Cause I actually. I find her to be a little bitch, to be perfectly honest. And, you know, I also think she may have some substance abuse problems. But, you know, it's like, we're not allowed to talk about it. Self diagnosed, you know what I mean? Right. But, okay.

[Rachel Martin]

He died in 2024.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

Okay. So, see, anyway, this is about eight years ago. You were talking to pilot producer. I don't have someone sitting here telling me, I wish I had a producer.

[Rachel Martin]

In my actual life to just, like, walk through and answer my questions in a way that's not bitchy. Siri. Yes. That's basically what a producer is.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

So Phil and Marlo came to our house and interviewed my husband and I about our long marriage. And they asked what the secret was. Now, my snarky answer to that secret is, don't leave. You know, what's the secret to a long marriage? Don't leave it.

[Rachel Martin]

That's not snarky.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

Yeah, it is. It's smart alecky, anyway. And they said, what's the secret? You said, don't go. Well, I said, the snarky answer is don't leave. The unexpected answer is.

Have two ideas at the same time. Be able to hate them and love them at the same time.

Hatred, anger, disappointment.

Exists in relationships. And.

Love is big. And love has to be able to contain all of it. And I think what happens is when people feel really angry and.

Hatred toward the other person, they're like, oh, I gotta get out of this. And the truth is, you don't. Because by nature, human beings are gonna be angry at each other and disappointed in each other. And if you grow as a human being in a long marriage, you know, you're gonna evolve and have all sorts of new discoveries about yourself, about them, about life. And they may line up and they may not. It may push you apart, it may pull you together, whatever it is. If you can hold space for both things, both are gonna come. You know, they're both gonna come for you. So I said that. And then they both kind of looked like. But they looked at me kind of shockingly. And I said, what? I'm the first person that said the word hate in your book? And they were like, yeah. And I was like, yeah, that's. That's where the truth comes in. Because, you know, it's the truth. Of the whole thing. So I love my husband, I believe he loves me. And we have made room to be disappointed in each other. And.

[Rachel Martin]

Is hatred just the most extreme version? And so that's the word because it indicates the opposite pole.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

It's just the. It's just love and hate, right? Yeah. I use the word hate as the opposite of the word love. You can hold two things at the same time. You can. Not like this, but like this. But it's part of the whole. But you have to be able to examine it. And so a lot of my life has been spent trying to examine the things we're not supposed to really examine and question it. And it gets you into trouble.

[Rachel Martin]

I know.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

And it also, it's the key to the freedom. Cause the whole goal here is freedom. Freedom of mind, freedom of will, freedom of love, freedom of politics, freedom of ideas. John Steinbeck talks about it that that's the most important thing to protect. Oh, just don't even move. Don't even move. I'm pull up a picture of Steinbach right now. Don't even move. I'm not moving right now. Don't move. Am I blank? And this I believe that the free exploring mind of the individual human is the most valuable thing in the world. And this I would fight for the freedom of the mind to take any direction it wishes undirected. And this I must fight against any idea, religion or government which limits or destroys the individual. This is what I am. And this is what I'm about. John Steinbeck, east of Eden. I read that and my mind exploded because I thought, well, there it is. I've been waiting my whole life for the directions. You know, like the directions. There they are. This is what I believe. Freedom. And so I read that and I was like, yes, queen. Like, yes, waiting for this my whole life. Now I know what to do. Now I know what to do. Thank you. John Steinbeck, east of Eden. Great book.

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[Jamie Lee Curtis]

One of the things I so appreciated was the time and the effort he took into getting the details just right. And most importantly, we knew that Barbara would have loved it.

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[Rachel Martin]

Last round.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

Wow. The red round. Well, middle, middle of the road right there. Pull it.

[Rachel Martin]

Number two. Oh, this is a big one, but.

Well, I'll stop talking about it. What does it mean to live a good life?

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

Well, it's a big one because it means.

Most importantly, that you live a life.

Trying to leave the world better than when you were in it. If life is a life form and you come up in the world and you create a humanness and you end up in a job and then you end up in a family and you end up doing your thing and then you go.

The hope has to be that what you were able to do with that moment in your life, whatever it be small scale, macro, micro, doesn't matter, is that it had an impact on other people and that you made the world. So.

I write books for children. Indeed, they're my best thing.

They are the best distillation of who I am, what I think, how I feel, how I see the world. And a book that I wrote about competition is called is there really a human race? And it was a question my youngest daughter, Ruby, asked me one day when she came home from school. She was about 5. And she got out of the car and she kind of ran over to me and she had this look in her face and her eyes were welling up with tears and she was really agitated and. And she ran up to me and she went, is there really a human race?

And in that second, I understood that from her standpoint.

She thought that I had entered her into some race of competition that I hadn't mentioned. And I realized that it's everywhere for children. Better, better, best grade, grade, grade. That's right, people.

[Rachel Martin]

She was in a race. She didn't even know about it. She hadn't been training. She knew how to win.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

Some kids know how to write, some kids don't. Some know how to decode words, some don't. Everything is immediately.

Layered in, in an order. There's a rank ordering immediately about things. You get gold stars. Everything Is this acquisition of some upward climb. And I wrote a book about using the metaphor of a race. But at the end, the child really gets upset. As upset as Ruby was with me that day. And the image in this child's head is that all of this racing was, why are we racing? What are we winning? Does all of my running keep the world spinning? Like, am I the perpetual motion by which life exists? And can I stop ever and just be okay not winning? And, you know, we're in a country of winners, you know, winners, winners, winners. And it's a real panic moment for this child. And then after that moment in the book, the mommy. Cause there's this great moment where this child's looking at the mommy, like, what the. And the mommy says this to the child. And this is my answer to your question. The mommy says.

Sometimes it's better not to go fast. They're beautiful sights to be seen when you're last.

Shouldn't it be that you just try your best and that's more important than beating the rest? Shouldn't it be looking back at the end that you judge your own race by the help that you lend? So take what's inside you and make big, bold choices. And for those who can't speak for themselves, use bold voices and make friends and love well and bring art to this place and make the world better for the whole human race.

That is my answer. That is my answer to your question. That's what we're supposed to do.

That's a good one. And that came out of my daughter.

Asking me that question and making me think about it. Are you competitive? Do you like to win? Yeah, I like to win. Like, I checked Box Office Mojo while Freakier Friday was on its thing because I wanted to get that fucker to a Hyundai. And we got to 94.6 and I'm still pissed. Cause I'm competitive. I wanted. Because that group effort, I wanted it so much for everybody. I mean, it did great. But you know what I'm saying? I'm competitive. The middle one.

[Rachel Martin]

The middle. You want the middle for a change.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

I want the middle one. Number two.

Just that one. Number two.

[Rachel Martin]

What do you look forward to when you're older?

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

Getting older? Yeah.

I mean, just.

[Rachel Martin]

Just having more.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

Just. Just getting older. Just more.

Just, you know, even thinner skin, you know? Cause the thin skin. Cause the thin skin thing is super fun. So I would say what I'm looking forward to is my skin getting even thinner than it is.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

Cause that'll just be fun.

[Rachel Martin]

And I can Imagine, you know, a lot of people think about age and you get older and you care less and less about what people think. But I feel like you've already like.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

You did that like 30, 40 years ago. I've been doing that my whole life. And I'm. And by the way, that's a total lie. And I mean, it's a lie. It's a lie if I don't. Or that you don't think that I don't care. Of course I care. When I look in the mirror, I am looking at the problem, I'm looking at the solution. You know, I can't filter the mirror. You know, the deep. Elvis Costello writes great singer songwriter and he has a song called the Deep Dark truthful Mirror. And the deep dark truthful mirror is coming for all of us. And we can pretend it isn't and we can cosmoceutically industrial complex blow it out somehow, either through surgery or stuff. And you know, we can alter reality all we want. We can take a photograph. I mean, I've been geshrying Yiddish word about this for a long time.

I've been talking about this since 2001 when I did the COVID of More magazine in my underwear, where I posed in my underwear and said to everybody, this is what I look like in my underwear. This is what I look like.

[Rachel Martin]

I was photoshopping.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

Yeah, just nobody. But that was photoshopping. Remember, Photoshopping is like your eight track, right? The word photoshop is like eight track, reel to reel, you know, it's now AI altered face tuning, whatever the it is. But my point is simply.

You can't hide the truth. You can think you can. We can be fed this bullshit that you can hide the truth. You can't hide the truth. We are who we are. And.

That'S what I have tried when I say I don't care. I don't care about hiding the truth anymore. I'm trying with every fiber of my being to live what John Steinbeck said. I must know. I must fight against any idea, religion or government which limits or destroys the individual. That's what I'm for. That's what he says. That's what I'm for. That's what I'm for. That's what I am for. And if that means then.

Pulling the band aid off of some stuff or asking harder questions or having two ideas at the same time, loving something and hating something at the same time.

Whatever it is, if that's ultimately what I get to represent in this lifetime, then I Will feel it was a life well lived.

[Rachel Martin]

We end the show the same way every time.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

Okay.

[Rachel Martin]

I didn't mean to point at you.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

Oh, no, you.

[Rachel Martin]

I'm a finger wagger.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

No, I'm a finger wagger. I'm a big hand actor. By the way, if you ever watch my movies, I'm big hand actor.

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, my God. Do you know that Jeff Goldblum, when I interviewed him, he told me I.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

Could be a hand model. Wow.

[Rachel Martin]

Do you think I could.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

Yeah, I know. I think he has a hand thing. Cause when I first met. Because when I first met him. This makes sense now. I met him on a movie that he did with my husband called Beyond Therapy.

In Paris for Robert Altman. And he complimented me on my hands and. And my short nails. I had. I'm telling you, Jeff Goldblum, when I first met him, said, you have lovely hands, and I love the way your nails are. Maybe he has a hand.

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, my God.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

And he's a terrific guy.

[Rachel Martin]

He's a terrific guy. It was a lovely conversation.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

Yes.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay. We end the show the same way every time with a trip in our memory time machine.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

Okay, I'm ready.

[Rachel Martin]

You revisit one moment from your past. It's not a moment you want to change anything about. It's just a moment you'd like to learn. Linger in a little longer.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

Got it.

[Rachel Martin]

You have it.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

The minute you said one moment, I'll tell you what it was. You ready? Okay.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Yeah.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

I was 12 years old. My sister Kelly and I went to visit Tony Curtis, who we barely knew.

In London. He had gotten married to his third wife.

He had just had a baby boy with her. The baby boy was 6 months old. My now passed brother Nicholas and Tony Curtis rented a house in Sardinia. And the day we arrived in Sardinia.

The luggage hadn't arrived yet, and it was on the water, but it was a craggly cliff kind of situation. I mean, it was on the water, but it wasn't like a beach. Yeah, right. But you could go down this path, and then you could get in the water, and there were sea urchins and stuff. And I remember Tony Curtis said, I'm gonna go for a swim. Does anybody else want to? And I shot my hand up and said, yes, I will. And So I was 12, and I went down this path with him, and he took off his clothes and was wearing his white tighty whities, which were men. And I took off my, you know, shorts and T shirt or kept my T shirt, my undies on. And we both Dove in from this little rock crag spot into some beautiful water off the coast of Sardinia.

And.

What I remember so clearly because, you know, my parents divorced and it was all acrimonious and awful. Tony married a 17 year old girl from Germany, left my mother who was in her 30s. You know, Tony had run off with this actress that he had made a movie with and broke, you know, the family apart, blah blah, blah, blah, blah. And.

I really didn't spend much time with him. And.

That moment in the water where I was the brave one, like I said, yeah, I'll go dive in the water with you. And the pride on his face.

That I was the brave one that was gonna dive in the water in my underwear and T shirt.

No towel, just us diving in the water.

I'll never forget that moment. That was, I felt like, and he had at that time five children. He ended up with six. As I said, my brother Nick died.

But I felt his pride. I felt connected to a guy who was magic, you know, he was Tony Curtis. But he was elusive because he was a guy who disappeared. And then anytime I saw him, I was always with my sister, you know. Cause we would see him if he came over to visit the girls. It was always us together and it was never ever time alone with him. And I just remember that singular moment where in that moment I was the only one in the world he had his eyes on and pride in me. And it's like I remember that moment so clearly, so clearly being 12, swimming in the water with Tony Curtis in Sardinia.

[Rachel Martin]

Jamie Lee Curtis. What such a lovely thing it has been. Lovely conversation with.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

Yeah, you too.

[Rachel Martin]

I really appreciate it. You can see Jamie Lee Curtis in the new film Ella McKay, which is out December 12th. Jamie, thank you so much.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

Thanks for playing the game and for inventing it and for having such a beautiful smile. Thank you lady. Bye.

[Rachel Martin]

Thank you so much for listening. And just another reminder that we want to hear from you.

[Jamie Lee Curtis]

From you.

[Rachel Martin]

We really do. Please go to npr.org wildcardsurvey all one word. It takes less than 10 minutes and you will be doing us a giant favor by filling this out. You can also find that survey link in our episode show notes. Thanks in advance. This episode was produced by Lee Hale and edited by Dave Blanchard. It was mastered by Maggie Luthar. Wildcard's executive producer is Yolanda Sangweni. And our theme music is by Ramtin Arablouei. We're going to shuffle the deck and be back with more next week. Talk to you then.

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