Jason Reynolds loves being a "crybaby"

Summary

Wild Card with Rachel Martin: "Jason Reynolds Loves Being a 'Crybaby'" – Detailed Summary

Episode Release Date: June 12, 2025
Host: Rachel Martin, NPR
Guest: Jason Reynolds, Poet and Author

---

Introduction

In this compelling episode of Wild Card with Rachel Martin, acclaimed poet and young adult author Jason Reynolds joins host Rachel Martin to delve into profound personal experiences, creative processes, and life's intricate emotions. Named a Top 10 Podcast of 2024 by The New York Times, Wild Card distinguishes itself by moving beyond conventional interviews, encouraging guests to explore life's biggest questions through a unique deck of conversation-controlling cards.

---

Childhood Memories and Family Dynamics

Jason Reynolds paints a vivid picture of his childhood, sharing heartfelt memories centered around family meals that served as both anchors and sources of emotional grounding.

• Favorite Childhood Meal:
  • "[02:23] Jason Reynolds: 'My mom had this thing. I don't know where she got it from, by the way. She had a weird obsession with feeding us turkey wings. And so we would have turkey wings, like, every night. Turkey wings and like, a broccoli every night.'"

These nightly meals, though monotonous, symbolized the stability amidst the turbulence of his family's changing dynamics, including his parents' separation and the loss of his grandmother at a young age. Reynolds reflects on how these simple dinners became an "anchoring point" during complex times.

• Impact of Family Separation and Loss:
  • "[04:28] Jason Reynolds: 'I mean, my dad. My parents split. You know, you go through that thing that so many of us go through around that age... my teenage years were full of death... and I'm starting to find whatever my vehicle of communication and expression is, because this is also the year I find writing.'"

---

Influence of Parents on Personal Development

Reynolds credits his parents for shaping his worldview and creative inclinations, highlighting the balance between his father's grounded nature and his mother's spiritual and artistic influence.

• Father’s Role:

  • "[07:46] Jason Reynolds: 'I like to say that my mother taught me how to think about the world, and my father taught me how to be in the world. My dad was life of the party... a psychologist... progressive, open-minded man.'"

• Mother’s Role:

  • "[09:56] Jason Reynolds: 'I grew up in a house where my mom was smudging our home every morning with sage and palo Santo... crystals everywhere.'"

His mother's dedication to Eastern spiritual practices provided a sanctuary for creative and emotional expression, fostering Reynolds' appreciation for imagination and introspection.

---

Creative Journey and Writing as Therapy

Discovering his passion for writing became a pivotal turning point for Reynolds, serving as a coping mechanism during his tumultuous teenage years.

• Finding Writing:
  • "[04:24] Jason Reynolds: 'I start tapping into this new thing that would eventually change my life for the better and save my life, arguably.'"

His early experiences with grief and familial changes propelled him into poetry and storytelling, ultimately leading to his success as a young adult author with works like "Long Way Down", "Ghost", and "2 Miles Morales: Spider-Man".

---

The Role of Music and "Soundtrack" Project

Music holds a profound place in Reynolds' life, deeply influenced by his father's eclectic taste spanning genres from Nirvana to Miles Davis.

• Musical Upbringing:

  • "[16:08] Jason Reynolds: 'My father introduced me to Nirvana... Phil Collins and Hall of Oates... blues, the jazz. We listen to Miles Davis... John Coltrane.'"

• "Soundtrack" Audiobook:

  • "[13:36] Reynolds discusses his original audiobook, 'Soundtrack,' which celebrates young musicians in the New York City subway system, highlighting music as a universal language and a potent form of self-expression."

Through "Soundtrack", Reynolds pays homage to the transformative power of music, illustrating how it fosters community and personal growth among young artists navigating the complexities of urban life.

---

Coping with Challenges and Mental Health

Reynolds openly discusses his struggles with restlessness and the constant drive to put forth effort, reflecting on societal expectations of masculinity and the importance of emotional expression.

• Balancing Effort and Rest:

  • "[30:15] Jason Reynolds: 'It's the trying that it's an intentional word... I'm trying relentlessly.'"
  • "[31:23] Reynolds elaborates on the challenges of balancing relentless effort with the need for rest, emphasizing his ongoing journey to find peace amidst constant productivity."

• Emotional Expression:

  • "[23:20] Reynolds: 'I can't help it. I am a crybaby of all crybabies... it reminds me that the expectations of masculinity didn't get me.'"

He champions the importance of allowing oneself to be vulnerable, asserting that crying is a testament to his freedom from restrictive societal norms.

---

Personal Practices: Alone Time and Imagination

Reynolds highlights the significance of solitude and imaginative thinking in his creative process, underscoring routines that foster mental clarity and creativity.

• Alone Time Practices:
  • "[20:31] Reynolds shares his daily regimen, which includes morning gym sessions and multiple baths, describing them as essential for recharging and tapping into his imaginative capabilities."
  • "[22:05] He emphasizes the importance of imagination, likening it to a playground where he can explore ideas that manifest in his writing."

---

Memories and Reflections

In the episode’s concluding segment, Reynolds shares a poignant memory with his father, encapsulating the blend of joy and impending loss that shaped his emotional landscape.

• Memory Time Machine:
  • "[43:18] Jason Reynolds: 'I took my dad out in a Porsche 911... we pushed it to about 150 miles an hour... he told me that he was going to die.'"

This cherished moment underscores the deep bond with his father and the enduring impact of their shared experiences, reinforcing Reynolds' dedication to living a meaningful and effortful life.

---

Key Quotes with Timestamps

• On Childhood Meals:

  • "[02:23] Jason Reynolds: 'My mom had this thing... she had a weird obsession with feeding us turkey wings...'*

• On Creativity and Writing:

  • "[04:24] Jason Reynolds: 'Those turkey wings were there every night... life is moving and it's changing... I really don't have that much control over.'*

• On Emotional Expression:

  • "[23:28] Jason Reynolds: 'I am a crybaby of all crybabies... it reminds me that the expectations of masculinity didn't get me.'*

• On Effort and Rest:

  • "[30:15] Jason Reynolds: 'It's the trying that it's an intentional word... I'm trying relentlessly.'*

• On Memories with His Father:

  • "[43:18] Jason Reynolds: 'I took my dad out in a Porsche 911... he told me that he was going to die.'*

---

Conclusion

Jason Reynolds' candid exploration of his life, from childhood memories and parental influences to his creative pursuits and emotional vulnerabilities, offers listeners an intimate glimpse into the mind of a celebrated young adult author. Through heartfelt narratives and introspective dialogues, Reynolds articulates the delicate balance between relentless effort and the essential need for rest, all while honoring the profound impact of family, music, and personal resilience.

---

For those interested in more enriching conversations, Rachel Martin recommends listening to her episode with fellow young adult author John Green, who delves into the essence of humanity and hope amidst adversity.

Transcript

[Advertiser]

This message comes from Discover, accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide. If you don't think so, maybe it's time to face facts. You're stuck in the past. Based on the February 2024 Nielsen report. [e-mail] Credit Card how easily do you cry?

[Jason Reynolds]

If the ASPCA commercials come on, you gonna let me say something? The moment I see them dogs, I can't help it. I am a cry b Of all crybabies. It is my favorite thing about myself.

[Rachel Martin]

I'm Rachel Martin and this is Wild Card, the game where cards control the conversation. Each week, my guest answers questions about their life. Questions pulled from a deck of cards. They're allowed to skip one question and to flip one question back on me. My guest this week is poet and author Jason Reynolds.

[Jason Reynolds]

Rest feels a little bit irresponsible. It feels a little disrespectful to all the people who want to be sitting where I'm sitting. For the people who deserve to have their stories told but for whatever strange reason won't get their moment.

[Rachel Martin]

I want you to think back to when you were a kid. Was there an adult in your life who didn't talk down to you? Someone who instantly just treated you like a person with your own perspectives and life experiences? Jason Reynolds has built his entire career around not talking down to kids. His bestselling and award winning young adult books include Long Way down ghost and 2 miles morales spider man novels. All of his stories come out of his own experience as a black kid growing up outside Washington, D.C. kids are complicated people and Jason Reynolds treats them that way. Jason won a MacArthur Genius Award in 2024. His most recent release is an original audiobook called Soundtrack. It is my pleasure to welcome Jason Reynolds to Wildcard.

[Jason Reynolds]

Thank you for having me.

[Rachel Martin]

Are you ready to play our game?

[Jason Reynolds]

I'm sorry, so you don't know this about me, but I'm such a competitive. I love any kind of game. Any kind of game.

[Rachel Martin]

You do?

[Jason Reynolds]

I do.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay, great. Then we're off to the races. I mean, you're sort of like competing. I don't know what you're competing. You're competing with yourself.

[Jason Reynolds]

That's even better. It's even better. It's even better.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay, first three cards. One, two or three?

[Jason Reynolds]

Let's go with one.

[Rachel Martin]

One.

[Jason Reynolds]

Yep.

[Rachel Martin]

Is there a meal from your childhood that brings back strong memories?

[Jason Reynolds]

My mom had this thing. I don't know where she got it from, by the way. She had a weird obsession with feeding us turkey wings. And so we would have turkey wings, like, every night. Turkey wings and like, a broccoli every night.

[Rachel Martin]

A turkey wing?

[Jason Reynolds]

Yes.

[Rachel Martin]

Like, that's a particular choice. It's not the turkey leg.

[Jason Reynolds]

No, no, a wing. My mom would make a whole pan of wings on Sunday, and we would eat off that pan for the rest of the week. Turkey wings and broccoli every single night for dinner. And at some point, you just. It gets a little boring and gross, and it's fatty and it's weird, and you're like, I don't want any more. And no one else is eating turkey. The other thing is that no one else is eating turkey wings, right? It's like you go to your friend's house.

[Rachel Martin]

It's like a chicken wing.

[Jason Reynolds]

No one else is eating turkey wings, right? And so we're these kids, and we're eating turkey wings every night. And so what it brings back memories of is just the simplicity of my life, even in the midst of. Actually, it's funny because it was complex. It was simple, but it was torrential at the same time. But the turkey wings is what kept it grounded. I just talked about this in therapy last week. We were talking about this same. It's a similar question, right? But there was a question around safety. And where can I go to, in my mind, where I would feel the most safe? And it would be back to that table. And that version of my mother, which is long gone. That version of my older brother, which is long gone. And that version of me, which is long gone. And there's a part of me that becomes. That gets very emotional thinking about it, only because in these moments, you realize that life is moving and it's changing, and it's this strange, amorphous thing that I really don't have that much control over. It's like I can control what I can control, but. But this thing is gonna change, and there's nothing I can do about it, right? The taste of my mother's turkey wings will never change. But every single thing around those wings is different now.

[Rachel Martin]

What was going on in life that felt turbulent, that the table felt safe?

[Jason Reynolds]

I mean, my dad. My parents split. You know, you go through that thing that so many of us go through around that age, right? 10, 11 years old, my grandmother dies. I'm experiencing death for the first time. The first of many, many, many to follow. I mean, my teenage years were full of death, but I'm starting to. So I had my first moment with it. I'm finding whatever my vehicle of communication and expression is, because this Is also the year I find writing. And I start tapping into this new thing that would eventually change my life for the better and save my life, arguably. I've got family in and out of the house who are living with me, People dealing with different things, you know, and no matter what was. I'm being bullied in my new school. I'm going to a new school because my parents split, and my mom felt that to raise these boys without their father around was a bit more dangerous. And so she sent me to Catholic school, which I was not for. Cause I'm a neighborhood kid who miss my neighborhood friends. And, you know, I'm failing school and, you know, all of this kind of stuff.

[Rachel Martin]

That's a lot.

[Jason Reynolds]

It's a lot. But those turkey wings were there every night. But those turkey wings were there every night. Right. And there's something. You don't see it at the time. It's so interesting what you don't see as a child. Right. You don't see it at the time. But as an adult, I look back and I'm like, God, they were an anchoring point.

[Rachel Martin]

Your mom knew that, though. My mom, I think she knew that.

[Jason Reynolds]

She definitely knew that it was important.

[Rachel Martin]

To put a meal on the table and have people gather together. And a turkey wing and some broccoli. That's a healthy meal.

[Jason Reynolds]

Exactly. Shout out to my mom.

[Rachel Martin]

I'm gonna tell my kids that when they complain about having the same chicken every night. This is your stability.

[Jason Reynolds]

Exactly.

[Rachel Martin]

You don't appreciate it now, but you're gonna look back and remember that this is your saf. That was lovely. Three more cards. One, two or three?

[Jason Reynolds]

Two, two.

[Rachel Martin]

How do your parents show up in you?

[Jason Reynolds]

Oh, God. I have an answer to this question, and I will answer it. But I'm curious just because I like you. I want to hear this. I want to hear you. This is my flip time.

[Rachel Martin]

This is your flip?

[Jason Reynolds]

Yeah. How do your parents show up in you?

[Rachel Martin]

Thank you for that one. I mean, very strongly. Like, I really feel half. And half of my parents. Both my parents were really religious people. My dad was, like, a very establishment Presbyterian attorney. That's what he was. He was, like a tax lawyer who always sort of thought he had a calling to God. So I have, like, a very. I was about to say I have a really strong spiritual life. I don't know if I actually do, but I'm keen on those questions because of him and my mom.

[Jason Reynolds]

And.

[Rachel Martin]

I like people. I'm, like, really deeply curious about people. And that's my mom My mom was an artist. She was endlessly fascinated in why people are the way they are. So those are just some examples.

[Jason Reynolds]

That's awesome. That's awesome for me. I like to say that my mother taught me how to think about the world, and my father taught me how to be in the world. My dad was life of the party. He had such a golden personality and he was such a sweetheart. He was a progressive, open minded, open hearted man at a time when that was a. No, no. I mean, a man covered in tattoos in the. A black man, specifically covered in tattoos in the 1970s. But on the flip side, my dad was also a psychologist. So he was grounded in, like, he would go to work every day. You know, he was very sort of like, this is sort of what life is. We try to understand each other, but also tattoos, motorcycles, fast cars, craziness, right? Rock and roll, rock and roll, rock and roll, rock and roll. Then my mom, this Southern woman who has worked the same job since she was 15 years old, she's the one who was like, you know, I put on my suit every day, I go to work. Conservative, right? And then I'd come home from school and there's like, you know, it might as well be. My house is like an ashram. Cause my mother was very much into all things that were sort of, you know, all sort of Eastern spiritual practices and all this other stuff. So she'd go to work in her very fancy, you know, conservative business suit. She worked in insurance, so she didn't have a fancy job, but she would put on her suit, right? And then she would come home and it would be all about, like, helping me understand the law of Dharma, right? And talking to me about the Bhagavad Gita and asking me if I had any questions about the Eightfold Path and if I wanted to have conversations with her about, you know, about anything that is. That in today's time, by the way, is very much en vogue, Right?

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. It's hard to overstate how unusual that was.

[Jason Reynolds]

It's so unusual. I'm like, I totally. I grew up in a house where my mom was smudging our home every morning with sage and palo Santo.

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, really?

[Jason Reynolds]

Yes. I grew up like that. And crystals, crystals everywhere. My mom is very much this sort of hippie, dippy, woo woo lady and has been since the 1960s. And so I was raised in this house where both of us.

[Rachel Martin]

Did you take any of that with you?

[Jason Reynolds]

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Not as much these days, but as a foundational part, like as part of my foundation. The idea that the idea of belief, despite my logic and reason, has been really healthy and helpful for me only because I'm smart enough and I have enough sort of critical thinking skills to know that I'm choosing to believe in these things as coping mechanisms. I'm choosing right. It isn't that I believe that without a shadow of a doubt, all of these things are true. It's that I am choosing to practice them as ways to balance and manage my life. And that's the. And to me, that feels healthier than a blind faith. Right. My ideas around all of this stuff is like, look, life is hard. And it helps to believe that there is something more intelligent than I am. It helps to believe that the universe is some sort of grand mathematical equation far beyond my ideas and my capacity to understand. It helps to have faith in each other, let alone in the natural processes that we live, the natural rhythms of our lives, like, these things are just. To me, they feel very practical. But also I'm choosing this as a way to manage the complex life that will get. No. That will never, ever, ever, ever, ever be simplified.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah.

[Jason Reynolds]

And that's because of my mom.

[Rachel Martin]

Do you drive a motorcycle?

[Jason Reynolds]

I've always wanted to. And then I got. And then I got past the point where I got too old. You know, some things you gotta do when you're young, when you got the courage. And now I talked to my buddy the other day, like, I think I wanna get a motorcycle. And then I was like, Cause my dad's dead now. And I, like, I'm always looking for ways to connect to him.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah.

[Jason Reynolds]

And I'm like, I should just get a motorcycle. And I'm like, I just.

[Rachel Martin]

I don't know.

[Jason Reynolds]

My chutzpah isn't what it used to be, you know?

[Rachel Martin]

I know. Support for this podcast and the following message come from Sierra Nevada Brewing Company. Raise a glass today and you'll taste more than just beer. You'll taste a trailblazing spirit. Spirit. You'll taste pure ingredients, sustainable brewing, and a commitment to community. And you'll taste a world of flavor. From the legendary pale ale to the citrusy and smooth hazy little thing. It's flavor that takes its time so you can make the most of yours. See for yourself where fine beer is sold. Sierra Nevada. Taste what matters. Please drink responsibly.

[Advertiser]

This message comes from Schwab. At Schwab, how you invest is your choice, not theirs. That's why when it comes to managing your wealth, Schwab gives you more choices, you can invest and trade on your own. Plus get advice and more comprehensive wealth solutions to help meet your unique needs. With award winning service, low costs and transparent advice, you can manage your wealth your way at Schwab. Visit schwab.com to learn more.

[Rachel Martin]

Support for this podcast and the following message come from Dignity Memorial for many families, remembering loved ones means honoring the details that made them unique. Dignity Memorial is dedicated to professionalism and compassion in every detail of a life celebration. Find a provider near [e-mail] okay, so before we get to round two, we're going to pull back and talk about soundtrack.

[Jason Reynolds]

Okay.

[Rachel Martin]

Because this is your latest project. This is a new thing to make an original audiobook. You can't get the book?

[Jason Reynolds]

No, there's no book.

[Rachel Martin]

It's an audio experience.

[Jason Reynolds]

Yes.

[Rachel Martin]

Can you give me the snapshot of these characters and what's going on with them?

[Jason Reynolds]

Yeah, I mean, simply. It's just. This is a story about a young man named Sty. And he, you know, it's funny cause the more I talk about it, the more I realize it's really a very standard story structure about a kid who's looking for community. It's no different than like the Little Rascals or, you know, we've seen this many, many times where it's like, these are kids who need each other, Right. They're kids who don't have much and they don't have many people, but then they find each other, they find soulmates within themselves. And the glue to each soul is. Is the music. Right. They're all musicians and they use this music to sort of build family amongst each other as they tour underground, physically underground, in the New York City subway system. And they become the soundtrack to the city, you know, and it's just an homage to New York City, an homage to young musicians, which I, you know, I dabbled in music as a kid, you know, and loved. Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

You were a musician.

[Jason Reynolds]

Yeah. And it's an homage to. To what I believe is our most potent form of self expression, which is music. Though I'm a writer for a living and I love writing and I will always dedicate my life to literature. I don't think it's any. I don't think it's up for discussion or argument. What the universal language is other than food, I would argue is music. It calcifies in the brain longer than anything else than any other physical expression. Right. You can have dementia, but you will remember your favorite song. Mm, right. It's special in that way. And I wanted to honor music. Cause I'm so grateful for the alchemy of it all.

[Rachel Martin]

They could have been into anything, these kids in this story. They're into jazz.

[Jason Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

Are you a jazz guy?

[Jason Reynolds]

I'm a jazz guy, yeah. Yeah. I'm. My musical taste. My dad introduced us to everything. You know, like, my dad was the man. My dad introduced me to Nirvana, right? My dad, right? So I always am so proud. Cause I. You know, when you get older, you realize who the cool parents were. And I'm like, they were my parents. I had the cool parents. And everybody in the neighborhood knew this, but I was living there, so it's not like you don't see it, right? And then you wake up one day and you're 28 or 30 or 40 or 50, and you're like, oh, wait, it was my parents. My dad is the one who would play Tracy Chapman's 1988 Tracy Chapman album, right? When he was cutting my hair. That's what we listened to. When he cut my hair, he would play the Tracy Chapman album on cassette tape. And then one day he said, hey, I want you to listen to this. And it was. And it was Nirvana, right? My dad is who introduced me to Phil Collins and Hall of Oates. And I listened to all that Zeppelin and Clapton, Bob Marley and Hendrix, Muddy Waters and Howlin Wolf, Taj Mahal, right? The blues, the jazz. We listen to Miles Davis listening to John Coltrane, like Lee Morgan. My dad is playing all of this in the house. And so, you know, I love it all. I see value in it all. And I'm grateful for him for opening us up like that and really exposing us to the beauty and the diversity of music.

[Rachel Martin]

So these kids, like you said, are playing in the subways, on the platforms, getting huge crowds. Are you someone who stops and listens to the buskers, to the street performers, to the people playing on the subway train?

[Jason Reynolds]

If you make me, you make me, right?

[Rachel Martin]

You need something that catches your ear.

[Jason Reynolds]

You gotta be. If you tapped in, it'll work when it's supposed to work. Look, we all. If you're a New Yorker, you know, there's this one guy, I don't even know if he's still around, who would play the horn, play the trumpet along the F line. He would be on the F train downtown. And there was no way. You couldn't stop and listen to this man play this horn. Because it seemed like an extension of him. He seemed like a man who had fallen on hard times. And this was his way of Crying out. Instead of him asking for money, instead of him telling you his story, this was his way of telling you what he'd been through. This was his way of crying out and saying, I am dealing and coping the best way I can. Can't you hear the beauty in this brokenness? Can't you hear the brokenness in this beauty? Right. It's really difficult as people who live in a city that is 100% challenging to not gravitate to a person that is trying to tell. He's playing your story. It's not just his. You waiting on a train in 100 degree Weather Underground. Is he playing your story too? You wiping tears from your eyes, trying to figure out how you gonna make the rent this month. Or you just found out that your landlord is selling a building and you gotta figure out where you gonna go in the most expensive city in the world. Or you like, this is a real. You see what I'm saying? Like that?

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, yeah, totally. I think of those people as my. They're like big, big stop signs for me. Like New York is. Everyone's just doing their thing. Everyone's just trying to get from point A to point B and you're moving and everyone's anonymous and it's gotta stay that way. Cause there's so much to absorb and there's so many people that if you absorb all the people stuff, then you'll just explode. And what stops me is when someone is playing something or singing in particular. Gets me. You're using your voice, that instrument, and it's like you must stop and acknowledge the vulnerability that that person's putting out there and the humanity that they are projecting into this cacophony of the New York City subway system. And it's just. It's so powerful for me.

[Jason Reynolds]

It's powerful.

[Rachel Martin]

So I also. I'm obsessed with thinking about those backstories of each one of those people who in that moment is giving that gift to people of music. Yeah.

[Jason Reynolds]

It's a beautiful thing. And, you know, it kind of breaks my heart these days because now New York, much like D.C. d.C. Years ago, we had phone lines in the subway. Right? You could talk on the phone in the subway. This was a long, long time ago. New York has finally figured that out. And they've got that together. And I kind of wish they didn't. They need to for safety purposes. It's important to be able to communicate while you're underground. But it also means that everybody is sort of on their phones when the buskers are busking and it's like there was something about being suspended. Everything was frozen while you waited for the train.

[Rachel Martin]

Yes.

[Jason Reynolds]

And so they had a. They could capture an audience differently.

[Rachel Martin]

That's right.

[Jason Reynolds]

Because you had to just wait.

[Rachel Martin]

And then you were sharing this experience with all these random strangers. With random strangers in one beautiful, ephemeral moment.

[Jason Reynolds]

Amazing.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay, we gotta get back to the game.

[Jason Reynolds]

Let's do it.

[Rachel Martin]

Let's do it. Round two. Round two. Insights.

[Jason Reynolds]

Let's start with two or three. Let's start with two.

[Rachel Martin]

Two. Are you good at being alone?

[Jason Reynolds]

My favorite thing in the world. I think when you Truly, truly, truly. I think that when you work as a writer, you value time to be alone. I need to think and I need to. I mean, I'm a person. I spend a lot of time by myself. And I love it. I love it. And I love being around people, too. But that requires a different kind of energy to refill the. Well, I need some alone time. I take. I go to the gym in the morning every day, and then I come home and I take a bath. I take a. Every day. I take a bath. Like an actual bath every day. Sometimes twice sometimes. Sometimes at night, too. Two.

[Rachel Martin]

A day bathing.

[Jason Reynolds]

Day bathing. Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

With the bath. With the bubble bath. With a straight wallet.

[Jason Reynolds]

Listen, I put everything in there. I put. Listen, I'm one of those people. I got all kind of salts and flowers and all kind of. I really. There's something about sitting in that. And I have a very. I'm a large person. I'm a big guy. And so I have a very big stone tub that I sit in. And there's something about being enveloped in a stone cocoon. And I just sit there. I just sit there until the water is cold. And I just think. Or I just be and breathe, or I imagine and daydream. I think we really underestimate the importance of imagining. Of just taking a moment to imagine and to be weird in that imagination.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah.

[Jason Reynolds]

Everything's a go if it's just inside your brain. Right. So, like, the things that I would never say or do outside of my brain, I get to sort of be a different person in my mind. I get to. And that. And that shows itself in my stories. It's like I can't write these things if I can't take a moment to imagine what would happen if this, this, and this went down. Yeah, I need that. It taps into a part of my youth and my playfulness and my childish. My childlikeness and sometimes my childishness, which are not the same things. Because I think when I was a kid and I had lots of friends in the neighborhood, but we still. Our imaginations were easily accessible. It was much easier for us to go outside, take a walk, or go get candy from the store and pretend the candy made us stronger or gold. You know what I mean? The power pellets we had. These are our power pellets so we could. Right. The imagination was always right at the sort of. You were always brimming with it. It was right at the lip of your psyche. And now it's not that way. I have to go and tap in. And that requires. That requires silence.

[Rachel Martin]

Two more cards.

[Jason Reynolds]

One.

[Rachel Martin]

Ooh. You knew right away.

[Jason Reynolds]

One.

[Rachel Martin]

How easily do you cry?

[Jason Reynolds]

If the ASPCA commercials come on, you gonna let me say something? The moment I see them dogs and that.

[Rachel Martin]

I don't know why I'm laughing. They are very sad.

[Jason Reynolds]

I can't help it. I am a crybaby of all crybabies.

[Rachel Martin]

Are you a crier?

[Jason Reynolds]

It is my favorite thing about myself. Why? Cause it reminds me that the expectations of masculinity didn't get me, that I avoided it, that somehow, some way, I was able to maintain a sense of freedom. I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful. And there are moments in which perhaps it puts me in precarious and embarrassing situations, but the people who love me and the people who are around me understand me well enough to know that he's gonna need a moment to get this out. And that's it. There's nothing to talk about. There's. No. I don't need. I'm fine. I just need a second to shed these tears and to feel what I'm feeling, and then we can move on with the conversation. I have no problem crying publicly in front of audiences of people, because I don't mind telling people that I appreciate folks bearing witness to a man who is able to somehow remain free. Hmm. I'm grateful for it. I really, really, really am. And I'm grateful for my mother and father and for my friends that I grew up with who are still my same friends today, for allowing me space to be myself without forcing me into a box that I do not belong in. So, yes, that.

[Rachel Martin]

That. That makes me cry. I am also an easy crier. But I love that as the mother of two boys. Yeah, I love it. And I. And I wanna. I wanna lift that up. And it's hard.

[Jason Reynolds]

It's hard to be a kid.

[Rachel Martin]

It's hard to be a boy.

[Jason Reynolds]

Oh, my God. Tell me about it. But this is the reason why I am grateful to have writing. I can put it somewhere. Right. That's what it did for me when I was 10. That's the reason I started writing in the first place. It's because my mom was crying. I was okay. I mean, I was going through what I was going through with my dad, but it wasn't. It was my mom who was hurting, and I was trying to figure out how to make her feel better. And that's the reason I started to write poems for her, to try to figure out how to help her. Right. So I think as long as, you know, it's important for people like us to just make sure we have a canister for this. We have to put it somewhere, and then, you know, we'll be able to manage our health differently.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. Okay. Three more. One, two, or three.

[Jason Reynolds]

Let's go with three this time.

[Rachel Martin]

Is there anything you long for?

[Jason Reynolds]

Rest.

[Rachel Martin]

Rest.

[Jason Reynolds]

Yeah, rest.

[Rachel Martin]

I'm not getting enough of that. Huh?

[Jason Reynolds]

No, I don't get enough rest. And there's a part of me that's also just not at peace. And I don't know. I've been working on it, you know, just trying to sort it all out. I've been. I take my mental health very seriously. And, you know, cause. Because I'm one of those people who have to, you know, And I think I'm restless, and I'm okay with being a restless person. I'm okay. Some of us are just restless. Our lives are circuses forever. And I'm totally cool. I would love to sign up for an interesting life more than anything. Right. Like, my life doesn't have to be perfect. It just has to be interesting. But I need to find some peace in that. And I haven't quite sorted that out yet. And it probably is connected to my rest. I probably can't find one very deeply. Yeah, I can't find one because I can't find the other. And that can go in either direction. I can't find rest. Cause I can't find peace. And I can't find peace because I can't find rest. And so I'm trying to. I'm trying to figure that out.

[Rachel Martin]

You feel like you're getting better at it, though? Like you're moving in the right direction?

[Jason Reynolds]

I'm moving in the right direction. I'm moving in the right direction. I got a ways to go, but I'm getting there.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah.

[Jason Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Advertiser]

This message comes from Thuma. Create your oasis with Thuma, a modern design company that specializes in furniture and home goods by stripping away everything but the essential. Thuma makes elevated beds with premium materials and intentional details with clean lines, subtle curves and minimalist style. The Thuma Bed collection is available in four signature finishes to match any design aesthetic. To get $100 towards your first bed purchase, go to Thuma Co NPR this.

Message comes from hometap. What if you could use your home equity to pay off your debt without monthly payments so you could focus on reaching your other financial goals? With a home equity investment from Hometap, you can get access to your home equity in cash, get closer to financial freedom and get more out of life. Learn more and see if you pre qualify for an [e-mail] that's hometap.com this.

Message comes from Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail], progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. Support for NPR and the following message come from the Pew Charitable Trusts sharing about the state of housing in America on the after the Fact podcast available at pewtrusts.org afterthefact.

[Rachel Martin]

We'Re at the last round. It is about beliefs. Here we go. One, two or three.

[Jason Reynolds]

Let's go with three.

[Rachel Martin]

How do you think your life should be judged?

[Jason Reynolds]

By my efforts. By my efforts. You know, I think your actions. Yeah, my actions, Yes.

[Rachel Martin]

I guess efforts is different efforts.

[Jason Reynolds]

Yeah, because I. My actions. Look, I'm a person who believes that action overweighs your intention. Right. Like the truth of the matter is what you were intending and what you did. Unfortunately, they often are dissonant and the person, the people who have been affected by your actions don't care about what you intended them to be. Right. It's like we have to take account of the actual fallout of the things that the decisions that we make. That being said, if I had to choose how my life was judged, I would say judge it by my effort, by what I was trying to do and by my right.

[Rachel Martin]

And it's the trying that it's an intentional word.

[Jason Reynolds]

It's not your accomplishments, but what I was trying that I was trying and that I was trying relentlessly. And in my particular case, that I was trying to make sure that our babies were loved and felt loved, that I was trying to make sure that my family, all of them and all of our complicated relationships, they knew that I was trying to change the trajectory and show us that there's more and that I am a product of them, that I am. This is what you made. Are you trying? It's easy to say you are right? Are you trying? It's even easy to stumble into success one time, right? It's a possibility that you could. Like, it happens all the time. But do you have the effort? Do you have the stomach to be effortful for the long haul? That he lived the consistent effort, that he lived an effortful life in every part of his life and everything that he chose to pour himself into. That's it. You know, and if I could do that, people could say, like, man, that dude really lived this thing. Like, he really. He gave it everything he had. I'll take it.

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, but my dear, I hear in that your longing for rest.

[Jason Reynolds]

Exactly.

[Rachel Martin]

Like when you're trying so hard, when everything is. Like, when you view your life as being judged by your effort, then you're going to keep, keep, keep going.

[Jason Reynolds]

I know you're going to keep efforting.

[Rachel Martin]

And that is exhausting.

[Jason Reynolds]

This is the problem. I mean, look, my dear friend and Everybody's favorite human, LeVar Burton told me one day, told me one day, he said. He said he was getting. He was chastising me, scolding me about this very thing. And he said, I know I love you because I know you well enough to see. To see myself in you. And he said, when I was your age, I was in the same place and I didn't learn to rest until I was 50. And he said that meant for 35 years of my life, I was living like somebody was chasing me. That's no way to live right now. I know this to be true, but for some of us, it's just a really hard thing to turn. It's almost pathological. It's a really strange thing to turn off. I mean, I come from a person. Does it feel selfish to turn it off? Yeah, it feels. And rest, it feels irresponsible and it shouldn't, right? I have an unhealthy relationship with rest. Right. But because to me, it feels. Look, there's not a moment in my life where I'm not aware of the privilege and of the gift of a life that I have been afforded. I also know that there are many people who are more talented and who has worked harder than I have and who could turn a phrase sharper than anybody in the world, who may never get the opportunity to live the life that I live. And so for me, my job is to justify every day why it's been given to me. My job is to. Is to honor them by doing my very best to make the most of the fact that it happened to me. So rest feels a little bit irresponsible. It feels a little disrespectful to all the people who want to be sitting where I'm sitting, for the people who deserve to have their stories told, but for whatever strange reason, won't get their moment. If this is my lot in life, then part of me just wants to kind of shoulder that, knowing what their lot in life might be. Yeah. You know what I mean? And so it's hard for me at the same time, I'm just a person. I'm a human, you know, I need rest.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, I hear you. Okay. One, two, or three?

[Jason Reynolds]

Let's go. Two.

[Rachel Martin]

Are you preoccupied with the past, the future, or neither?

[Jason Reynolds]

Ooh, this is a good one, right?

[Rachel Martin]

I like this one.

[Jason Reynolds]

This is a good one.

[Rachel Martin]

Actually, haven't asked anyone this one yet.

[Jason Reynolds]

This is a very good question. I love future thought. I love projection. I love. You know what it is, is that, like, I've got heroes. And because I have so many heroes, and because I'm a student and in this particular context, I'm talking about, like, work stuff, like being a writer and being a student of literature and being a person who gets to know so many of your heroes, and then a person who gets to grow up and come up with all these young writers, and all of us are getting older, and then all of our lives are sort of changing or have changed. It's really hard for me to not mythologize who we become. Yeah, I love a good story. My life is about a good story, right? And so I watch all the documentaries, and you see, oh, look, there's James Baldwin talking to Maya Angelou at a table. They're smoking cigarettes and drinking coffee, and they're having a conversation around love and whatever else. It is impossible for me to not be like. I wonder what it might be like one day if I'm sitting at a table with Jesmyn Ward and we're having the same conversation, but we're 70 years old. Or I wonder what it would be like someday when all of my friends and these lovely people that I've known for all these years, right? Nicole Hannah Jones. Me and Nicole Hannah Jo Jones are hanging out, and we're. But now we're 70, right? We hung out, or we hang out at this age, but what does it mean to hang out at 70? And now Nicole Hannah Jones is in the history books and. Right. Like what? Like I. So I. The future definitely intrigues me.

[Rachel Martin]

But it sounds like a healthy way. You're not preoccup.

[Jason Reynolds]

It's not a preoccupation.

[Rachel Martin]

It's not anxiety.

[Jason Reynolds]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. That doesn't bother me. It's an excitement around just seeing where the road takes us and just like, do we get to step into our hero's shoes one day? And then in terms of the present, every day I wake up just completely, like 6:30, I'm jumping out the bed. Like, I'm getting to it. Like, I attack the day.

[Rachel Martin]

You got things to do.

[Jason Reynolds]

Yeah, yeah. And I attack the day every day. I'm talking like, I hit the gym, take care of my body. Like, I'm talking like I'm. And by the time, eight, nine o' clock, I'm like, whew, I'm ready to go to sleep. Right. And I lay it down. But I really am a person who. My father was this way, too. He believed that you have to chase your life down. Don't wait for life to come get you. Right? Go get it right. Chase your life down. And I do feel that way. That can cause a little bit of anxiety because if I don't do it or if I feel like I had a lazy day, this comes back to that rest conversation. Then I feel like I let one get away. Can't get the day back. It's like, oh, man, you got a limited amount of these. It's a finite amount of these things. Can't let the day get away, man. You gotta make the most of these moments and try to find some joy. Try to be productive. Try to help somebody. Try to have a good belly laugh. Move your body and be grateful that you got a body that moves. Right. Give somebody a hug.

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, my God. Everything you just said, I want to put on a poster and put in my kitchen. It's true for my children and for me. Like, these are the things. Do these things today. Wake up in the morning, because you need to hug a person. You need to have a belly laugh. You need to help a person. Yeah.

[Jason Reynolds]

Gotta tell somebody you love them. Have a good cry. Like, these are the things. Seriously, right? I'm really like. And I try to get all those things done on a daily basis.

[Rachel Martin]

That's a good day. Last one, Jason. One, two or three?

[Jason Reynolds]

Let's end with number one.

[Rachel Martin]

Is there anything in your life that feels like praying?

[Jason Reynolds]

What a great question. You know, my yes is the answer. My. My mother is 79, almost 80. And she's dealing with some health challenges. And these health challenges over the course of the last year has put me in position to be a caretaker. And part of that caretaking means that my mother. I have to take care of very intimate things as it pertains to my mother. I have to wash her and I have to clean her. I have to, you know, pull her panties up and do all sorts of things that, to be honest with you, I, you know, I did some of this stuff when I was 18, when she was ill with cancer a long, long time ago. So it isn't that it's jarring. It's that at this age, it feels different. And at this age, it feels in the midst of its. Of its burden, because it is that, if we're being honest, it is burdensome sometimes.

[Rachel Martin]

Yep.

[Jason Reynolds]

It also feels like prayer. It feels like I'm praying. I'm praying at the only creator that I've ever actually physically known, right? Your mom, my mother. I'm bowing at the feet. I'm washing the feet of the only God I've ever physically touched. And does it feel like praying? It feels like praying and everything else. This is the hallelujah of all hallelujahs. And I really, really mean that. It doesn't mean it's not difficult. It's painfully difficult. But I'd be lying to you if I didn't tell you that difficulty is only a piece of this experience. Right. I went through this with my dad as my dad was dying. We went through a similar experience. I felt the same way, to be honest with you, as a person who's not very religious, I've known prayer. This has been. These two moments, have probably been these two moments in driving through the desert in Arizona, which seems so far away from these things, but it's not. It's the acknowledgement of a bigger thing and the acknowledgement that there are bigger things to acknowledge. In Arizona, it's the mountains in the sky. It's the openness and the emptiness of a world unmuddied by buildings and architecture. And, right. Like this is God if I've ever known God. In my mother's bedroom, it's a similar thing. It's me acknowledging a vessel that has given me everything that I've become. And as that vessel continues to sort of. To empty, right? It's seeping out. She's not on E yet, and she's fine. But E is coming. The tank is emptying, right? And to be there and to maintain this vessel, to maintain her comfort to keep. To maintain her dignity by making sure that she's clean and cared for. Come on. I mean, what else could prayer be? Prayer can't just be asking, right? Sometimes it's me saying, I'm so grateful for everything you've given me that me taking these 45 minutes to bathe you is a very small drop in the bucket of the gratitude that I actually owe you. And I will do everything I can to refill, to pour into this, until I can't pour, or you don't have a bucket anymore for me to pour into. What a gift. What a gift. Honestly. And you know it hurts to say, and I can feel my tears welling up in my eyes, but seriously, I wish my mom wasn't going through what she was going through, but I'm so grateful to be there so that she don't have to go through it by herself. She can go through it with. She can go through it with what she made. You made the thing that is meant to come here and make sure that you're all right. In the midst of this process, I'm going to help you slide on the body. I'm going to help you transition. I'm going to make sure that there's comfort for you. The least I could do after teaching me how to be bold, how to be caring, how to be sensitive, how to cry, how to be a person whole and unfettered by the pressures of this life. Come on. The least I can do that is prayer, Freedom, space. Like, that's prayer for sure.

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, that was a good one, Jason.

[Jason Reynolds]

These card games. This is a good game.

[Rachel Martin]

We end our show the same way every time with a trip in our memory time machine. You pick one moment from your past. It is not a moment you want to change anything about. Just a moment you want to linger in a little longer. Which moment do you choose?

[Jason Reynolds]

Oh, I. Oh, my father, when I. When I finally made it, started to make a couple dollars, you know? Mm. I went and I bought myself a 911. A Porsche 911. Cherry Red, guard red, as the Porsche, people say. And I took it to my father's house. My father had been fighting cancer for a while at this point, but he was home. He had done some surgeries. It was looking good, and I took it. He was a car man, specifically American muscle. He loved the Mustang. He loved a Corvette. Those were his cars. And. And he did not like anything other than those cars. But I took my German sports car to his house, and he came outside, and at first, he Thought I'd bought a Tesla because I had been teasing him that I was gonna buy a Tesla, which he was very much like, are you crazy? We don't like, you know, all of that. And so he comes outside and he sees this car, and his eyes light up and he's like, let me drive it. And he gets in the car and we pull out onto the main road. He lived in the country, and we drove about. We pushed it to about 150 miles an hour maybe. And I remember him slowing the car down, and I'm looking at him and I'm like, man, mind you, I'm white knuckling. And he's like, yeah. And we pulled back into his driveway and he's like, I won't lie to you. I was a little afraid, right? And we just bust out laughing. We had this moment. And then right after that, he told me that he was going to die. So right after that, he said, look, I'm not gonna be able to beat this thing. And I probably got six weeks. And so I just wanna, you know. So we started to have a very different conversation. And it was all very lovely, honestly, but painful, you know, and if I could extend a moment, me and the old man, we would have driven a lot longer. We would have taken. We would have taken a road trip. We would have. And we had taken a road trip two years before, but we would have done it in the Porsche. We would have just tore the road apart. Because it was the last time that I saw my father alive. He was living for another six weeks, but the last time I saw that thing in his eye that reminded me of who he was and what he had given me. This knucklehead kid who had a penchant for toys and, you know, I'm just like him, you know, fast cars and all the things, all the stupid stuff of boyhood, you know, I think about that often. You know, this is after telling me that he had a fake Rolex. I always thought he had a real Rolex. And he was like. Like all of these. Like it was. You know what I mean? Like, just, you know, like, he set all these standards for me that I grew into this man who got all the better versions of the things he was pretending to have. And so I just wish he would have lived a little longer for me to give him and show him some of the sweet bits.

[Rachel Martin]

Jason Reynolds, his new original audiobook soundtrack is out now. Jason, thank you.

[Jason Reynolds]

You got it. Thank you.

[Rachel Martin]

If you like that conversation, you should go back and check out my episode with another young adult. Awesome John Green. John is another guy who just speaks so beautifully about the essence of being human and he had a powerful defense of why, despite all the ugliness in the world, he still feels hope. You should definitely give it a listen. This episode was produced by Summer Tamad and edited by Dave Blanchard. It was mastered by Patrick Murray. Wildcard's executive producer is Yolanda Sang, and our theme music is by Ramtin Arablouei. You can reach out to [e-mail] and we're going to shuffle the deck and be back with more next week. Talk to you then.

[Advertiser]

This message comes from Mint Mobile if you're tired of spending hundreds on big wireless bills, bogus fees and free perks, Mint Mobile might be right for you with plans starting from 15 bucks a month. Shop plans [e-mail] Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month 5GB plan required. New customer offer for first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. This message comes from homes.com what kind of programs does this school have? How are the test scores? These are all things parents ask when they home shop. That's why Each listing on Holmes.com includes extensive reports on local schools. Homes.com we've done your homework. This message comes from ebay Swapping out your tires? There's nothing like it with ebay you find the feel you're looking for, from smooth highway rides to grip for rough terrain. Get all the tires you need at prices you'll love. Ebay Things people love.