Jeff Hiller

Summary

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Wild Card with Rachel Martin – Episode Summary

Guest: Jeff Hiller
Date: October 9, 2025
Main Theme: Emmy-winning actor Jeff Hiller explores faith, self-acceptance, grief, and community through the “deck of questions” format—revealing his humor, humility, and profound connection to both his roots and his emerging stardom.

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Overview

This episode of Wild Card dives deep into the candid, often emotional life of Jeff Hiller. Well-known for his standout role on HBO’s Somebody Somewhere, Jeff reflects on childhood memories, faith, coming out, his late mother’s influence, and the surreal reality of “overnight” success. Host Rachel Martin and Jeff share laughs, vulnerability, and thoughtful insights, weaving humor and raw honesty throughout their conversation.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Childhood, Parental Influence, and Being Different

• Realizing Parents Are "Only Human"

  • Jeff grew up “girlish,” not conforming to gender norms. His parents, though loving, initially tried to steer him into masculinity to help him avoid bullying (03:14–04:35).
  • “Let me just say that they did make some mistakes...it was like, butch it up. It was, you know, be more masculine. And I think that's just only human. And especially also, like in 1982 or whatever.” – Jeff (03:33)
  • Rachel and Jeff discuss how, over time, his mother became an anchor of unconditional love, fully supporting his coming out in adulthood (05:14).

• Favorite Family Story

  • In a moment of humor, Jeff recounts the classic family tale of a baby diaper disaster during his church debut (10:43–11:39).

2. Appreciation for Home Towns and Heritage

• Jeff expresses growing appreciation for the diversity and culture of San Antonio, especially its vibrant Mexican American community and food (06:05–08:08).
• Rachel reflects on her Idaho upbringing, noting the conservative, tight-knit culture and how her perspective softened over time (08:08–10:19).

3. Overnight Success & Industry Recognition

• Jeff recounts the shock and joy of winning an Emmy, feeling welcomed in a community that previously felt exclusive (12:32–19:31).
  • “So I guess winning, it does mean something.” – Jeff (14:18)
  • “I feel very loved. I feel very part of a community and accepted...there has just been such an incredible outpouring of affection toward me that I feel. I actually feel it.” – Jeff (17:54–18:29)
• Despite the Emmy, Jeff candidly speaks about the realities of acting careers—work is still elusive, and success often feels like luck, not just talent (17:21–20:32).

4. Fear, Self-Awareness, and Feeling Like an Outsider

• On fear, Jeff contrasts himself with his anxious husband; Jeff tends toward optimism, except when facing conflict (20:54–21:49).

  • “My husband has a lot of anxiety and is often going to the darkest place of possibility, and that's really not me at all. If anything, I often go to the best case scenario.” – Jeff (20:57)

• Admits fear of confrontation made him a poor fit for social work, despite his commitment to helping (21:49–24:59).

• Outsider Feelings

  • Jeff discusses never feeling completely safe or accepted around straight men due to childhood bullying—a dynamic that still colors his relationships (26:09–28:23).
  • “My coping mechanism now is to roast them, to be kind of mean to them. Like, comedically mean to them.” – Jeff (27:02)

• Rachel relates with her own insecurities around “Washington power people,” showing the universality of these feelings (28:34–30:00).

5. Faith, Grief, and What Remains After Death

• Both Jeff and Rachel express a sense (more spiritual than logical) that loved ones linger—especially poignant regarding their late mothers (31:05–33:38).

  • “The idea that she isn't seeing this is, like, too painful to imagine. And so I believe that she's not only seeing it, she's, like, the architect of it. And I know that that's silly.” – Jeff (31:15)
  • “Worst case scenario, we get to think about our moms.” – Jeff (33:33)

• Evolving Concept of God

  • God becomes less a paternal figure and more present in community and joy as Jeff matures (35:05–37:38).
  • “I believed that community of friends, having joy together, having true joy, is the presence of God. And I stand by that.” – Jeff (36:37)

• Jeff’s mother’s faith similarly transformed, from judgment and tradition to a more service- and justice-oriented spirituality (37:46–39:23).

6. Moral Compass

• Both Jeff and Rachel describe a blend of parental influence, friends, empathy, and wisdom as their moral compasses (39:42–41:31).
• Jeff notes his character Joel’s positivity and decency has rubbed off on him—so much so that a meme jokingly asked, “What would Joel do?” (41:31–43:09).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Faith and Afterlife:
  • “Yeah. And I know logic says that's not true, but I don't care. That's what I want to believe ... I believe that she's not only seeing it, she's, like, the architect of it.” – Jeff (31:15)
• On Community as ‘Church’:
  • “I believed that community of friends, having joy together, having true joy, is the presence of God. And I stand by that.” – Jeff (36:37)
• On Overnight Success:
  • “But if you're an artist who's not getting financial success or awards, it doesn't mean you're not an incredible artist.” – Jeff (20:10)
• On Outsider Feelings:
  • “I always felt scared around straight men. And my mechanism ... is to roast them, to be kind of mean to them.” – Jeff (27:02)
• On Using His Role as a Model:
  • “What are you gonna take away from the show? And I do think I take away his goodness, his being decent to other people...” – Jeff (41:31)
• On Parental Moral Guidance:
  • “My parents are huge. And I do think about my mom all the time, about what she would do in situations. And then I literally ask my dad for advice all the time too.” – Jeff (41:31)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |-----------------------------------------------|-------------| | Question: Afterlife & Faith | 00:54, 31:05| | Childhood, Gender Nonconformity & Family | 03:14–05:47 | | Hometown Pride and Roots | 06:05–10:19 | | Family Story – “Poop up the Neck” | 10:43–11:39 | | The Emmy Win and Belonging | 12:32–20:32 | | Discussing Fear & Emotional Work | 20:54–24:59 | | Feeling Like an Outsider | 25:58–30:17 | | Deep Dive: Afterlife, Mothers, and Grief | 31:05–33:38 | | Changing Ideas of God | 35:05–37:38 | | Moral Compass Reflections | 39:42–41:31 | | Closing Reflection: Memory to Linger In | 45:10–45:42 |

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Final Reflection: A Moment to Linger

Jeff’s Most Cherished Memory:
“In seventh grade. My hair was permed and my mom took me to SeaWorld. She let me skip school...I felt loved and I had fun...I felt such joy that day and such closeness with her.” – Jeff (45:10)

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Tone & Takeaway

With warmth, wit, and honesty, Jeff Hiller offers a touching reminder of how family, community, faith, and humor shape us. This episode is full of hope for late bloomers, queer kids from conservative towns, and anyone ever made to feel like an outsider. Jeff’s humility and gratitude shine—whether discussing Emmy wins or childhood struggles—and Rachel’s empathy and playfulness create a space for shared vulnerability.

Short on small talk, big on heart—this Wild Card episode is a masterclass in joyful, sincere connection.

Transcript

[Rachel Martin]

Support for this podcast and the following message come from Dignity Memorial. For many families, remembering loved ones means honoring the details that made them unique. Dignity Memorial is dedicated to professionalism and compassion in every detail of a life celebration. Find a provider near [e-mail] hey there. If you're loving this show, then I've got a favor to ask. Would you mind giving us a review wherever you listen? Like this one from bgruner76 which says as follows. I love hearing the questions, which always spur some introspection. For me, no matter the level of fame, Rachel helps reveal the real life humans behind the fame. Thank you for that. Please consider leaving a rating or a review of your own. It helps more people find us. Okay, on with the show. Do you think there's any part of us that will live on after we die?

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah. And I know logic says that's not true, but I don't care. That's what I want to believe. I'm not going to make you have to believe that. If you're like, like, we just go to dirt. Okay, cool. I'm not gonna try and change your mind, but yeah, I do.

[Rachel Martin]

I'm Rachel Martin and this is Wildcard, the show where cards control the conversation. Each week, my guest answers questions about their life. Questions pulled from a deck of cards. They're allowed to skip one question and to flip one question back on me. My guest this week is Jeff Hiller.

[Jeff Hiller]

I believed that community of friends, having joy together, having true joy, is the presence of God.

[Rachel Martin]

When I first started watching the HBO show Somebody Somewhere, I was blown away by the specificity and vulnerability of the characters. Jeff Hiller steals the show as Joel, who has seen his fair share of rejection and still walks through life with joy, not unlike Jeff himself. And now this guy who up until recently had an IMDb filled up with roles like Mexican restaurant waiter and frazzled salesman. Well, he is a newly minted Emmy award winning actor. And I am so very happy to welcome Jeff Hiller to Wildcard.

[Jeff Hiller]

Hi. Hi. Frazzled salesman.

[Rachel Martin]

Frazzled salesman. Memorable role.

[Jeff Hiller]

I couldn't even tell you which show or you were like, I don't even.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Know what that was.

[Rachel Martin]

Right? We're gonna play this game. You feel up for it?

[Jeff Hiller]

Okay, I feel up for it.

[Rachel Martin]

I mean, what a bummer if you were like, actually, no, this is a horrible idea, Texie.

[Jeff Hiller]

I don't take cabs. Am I Rockefeller?

[Rachel Martin]

Okay, so we're gonna start. This is the first round. Memories. Okay, first three cards. Here they are. You pick one, two or three? Two, two. Here we go. What's an experience from childhood when you realized your parents were only human?

[Jeff Hiller]

Oh, you know, I wanna preface this by saying, like, my parents were amazing. My book is dedicated to good parents because I had good parents. And I know how rare that is. And I have many friends who did not have that and who had, you know, such an anchor on them throughout their whole lives. But let me just say that they did make some mistakes. And one of them is when I was young, I was very. And I know this is gonna be shocking, but I was very girlish and I did not conform to standard gender roles. So, like, I really wanted dolls and they wouldn't. They didn't want to get them for me. And they told me, you know, at school, this is when I was quite young. I talk in the book about how my mom really helped me later, but when I was quite young, she really tried to sort of make me be like a different person, to make bullies stop bullying me. And I mean, it wasn't these words, but it was like, butch it up. It was, you know, be more masculine. And I think that. I think that's just only human. And especially also, like in 1982 or whatever. It's not like there was a lot of gender theory out there, P flag.

[Rachel Martin]

There weren't like, you know, parents of gay kids to organize.

[Jeff Hiller]

And I was like six or seven, too.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

And you were so little. But I do love in the book, you spend a lot of time talking about. Your mom in particular was just such an unconditional, loving presence in your life. And it took a while for her. But she also, in your coming out story, which you talk about in the book, she was waiting for you in your own time to be comfortable telling her.

[Jeff Hiller]

Right. I mean, she's such the opposite of me in that she is like a researcher and a planner and organized. And so when I came out to her, she. Yeah, she'd read books, she'd talked to a pastor at an MCC church and was very ready. Yeah. As opposed to me, who's just like, oh, how did I end up here? Why am I sitting in this chair?

[Rachel Martin]

And she was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jeff Hiller]

And I've never come out to anybody who's been like, what? They've all been like, oh, thank you. That's so sweet that you told me.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay, three more cards. One, Two or three?

[Jeff Hiller]

Three.

[Rachel Martin]

Three. What have you learned to appreciate about your hometown over time?

[Jeff Hiller]

Well, my hometown is San Antonio. And a lot of times people will say, like, you're from rural Texas, and I'm like, it's actually the seventh largest city in the United States, but okay.

[Rachel Martin]

God, is it that big? I'm embarrassed that I don't know that.

[Jeff Hiller]

You know how I learned that?

[Rachel Martin]

How?

[Jeff Hiller]

When I took my husband home, we went to the Riverwalk on a riverboat cruise. On the Riverwalk, and they announced it there, and I was like, wow, we're huge.

[Rachel Martin]

Really up and coming. Okay, so it's a big city.

[Jeff Hiller]

My sister used to live in Austin, so when I would go home, I would go. But she just recently moved to San Antonio, and so that's where I go now. I've only been there once since she moved back, but we're both completely like, this town is great. First of all, it's very affordable. It has very good food. I mean, I'm not saying it's healthy food. No.

[Rachel Martin]

But it is delicious.

[Jeff Hiller]

It tastes really good. I mean, it's hard to go wrong with just a bucket of cheese that you dip a chip into. And also, what I really appreciate now and from growing up is it's. Listen, I'm not trying to say that there wasn't a lot of racism in Texas in the 80s, but I had many friends who are Mexican American because there just are so many Mexican American people living in San Antonio. And it made me appreciate Mexican culture and Mexican American culture and those mixtures and Tex Mex food and having tamales on Christmas with chili. And so, yeah, I really appreciate that. What's your hometown?

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, what's my hometown? Idaho Falls, Idaho.

[Jeff Hiller]

Oh, wow. I know. Oh, I don't know why.

[Rachel Martin]

It's exciting.

[Jeff Hiller]

It's different than Twin Falls.

[Rachel Martin]

It is different than Twin Falls. And how do you know even know about Twin Falls?

[Jeff Hiller]

Well. Cause there was that movie called Twin Falls, Idaho. Oh, but wait, so what do you appreciate about Idaho Falls?

[Rachel Martin]

We're just flipping with abandon. My short version is that I grew up in a super conservative place, which maybe San Antonio wasn't because it was a bigger city, but.

[Jeff Hiller]

No, it was. It completely was. It's 80% Catholic. Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. So not a lot of gay kids walking around out and about on the streets?

[Jeff Hiller]

Literally none. I mean, obviously some, but none openly.

[Rachel Martin]

Right? Yeah. Same for where I grew up. It was just a very conservative culture. It's heavily lds, lots of Mormons in that corner of Idaho. And so I was, like, desperate to leave it. I felt that it was really suffocating because we were Presbyterians, and as my dad used to say, that we were persecuted religious minorities. We were not persecuted listener. We were not. But so, I mean, in retrospect, it's.

[Jeff Hiller]

A good joke, though. It's a good joke.

[Rachel Martin]

It's good. I say it a lot now. I go back there, and it is the most beautiful place. I mean, it's so incredibly beautiful. And now all these people have discovered it. But this little corner of Idaho along the Snake river near Teton Valley is just. It's everything. It's like my most peaceful place. People are very kind. People are like. That's the other thing. It was, like, this very conservative culture that felt stifling to me in so many ways. And neighbors help neighbors. I mean so much. Everyone is there for each other. I so deeply appreciate that about where I came from. And I was really into judging it when I was younger. I was. It was easy to be like.

[Jeff Hiller]

And still, like, every once in a while, occasionally now.

[Rachel Martin]

Right.

[Jeff Hiller]

But, you know, when you start seeing, like, the politicians that are statewide in Texas, you're like, this is making it hard to like Texas.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay. All right, we're moving on. One more question in this round. 1, 2 or 3?

[Jeff Hiller]

1.

[Rachel Martin]

What's a story your family always tells about you?

[Jeff Hiller]

Oh, the only one I can think of is so gross.

[Rachel Martin]

Bring it.

[Jeff Hiller]

I was born on a Sunday, and so they didn't go to church that day, but my family went to church all the time. So the first Sunday they brought me to church was when I was literally one week old. And they put me in this red gingham onesie, and I went into church, and I was very, you know, singing along, or I wasn't singing along. I was just like a lump of flesh.

[Rachel Martin]

I was really talented at one week old.

[Jeff Hiller]

And anyway, this story I sung in harmony. I was like. What do you call it? Like, dancing sort of to the hymns or whatever. And then I pooped my pants so much it came out the neck of my onesie. Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. I sort of knew that's where that was going. It's just anytime someone talks about being really well dressed as an infant, I just lived that. I was. You know, I'm a parent. I definitely experienced the poop up the neck. The old poop up the neck story.

[Jeff Hiller]

I know. And I was like, is this really the tale that we tell? Always.

[Rachel Martin]

Before we start round two, we get to talk about what is going on in your creative life, which is many things. And let's start with winning an Emmy, which is a big old deal. Jeff Hiller.

[Jeff Hiller]

You know, when I was nominated, it was such a surprise to be nominated, and I Know that that's like. I always feel like such a cliche when I start talking about it, because it does feel like I didn't know I would win. I was shocked, but I have to tell you, I was shocked. Like, for instance, when I went to meet with hbo, some of the other nominees were like, we made it to phase two. And I was like, what's phase one? It's because they hadn't. Phase one is like when you're campaigning to get the nomination.

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, right.

[Jeff Hiller]

And then phase two is when you.

[Rachel Martin]

Are campaigning more than that to get the actual award.

[Jeff Hiller]

Exactly. And it was very clear that they had been having meetings for phase one and I had not been included in those meetings. Cause nobody thought I was going to be nominated for an Emmy. So then I was like. And I know this is a hack thing to say too, but I really was like, I'm just happy to be nominated. Totally. It really is so exciting. And I've never been to an award show like that. I was like, holy crap. There's all these famous people. It was just very. I'd done a lot of work to be like, this is not about the result. This is about just being.

[Rachel Martin]

That's right here.

[Jeff Hiller]

And being, like, invited to the party.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, right.

[Jeff Hiller]

But then when I won, and also, like, my manager was like, it doesn't even matter if you win. This is already the win. This, like, makes you feel real. But then after I won, he was like, dump everything. You're a practical person, but now's not that time to be practical.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Wow.

[Jeff Hiller]

So I guess winning, it does mean something.

[Rachel Martin]

It means something. I mean, the show is magnificent. I love this show. I talk about this show all the time to people who will listen to me because it's just this beautiful 360 degree portrayal of these individuals that feel so real and so precious. And the role of Joel, this was not written explicitly for you, Right?

[Jeff Hiller]

But they have explicitly stated. It was not written explicitly for me. Yes.

[Rachel Martin]

But it is weird, the synchronicity between you and this character. Can you just tick off a few of the ways that you are the same?

[Jeff Hiller]

I mean, he's gay. That's obviously, I only play gay characters. But he's involved in the church, which is not only like me, but it's also just. There's no other character like that on tv.

[Rachel Martin]

I know. And the church in his religiosity is not a punchline. It's just is.

[Jeff Hiller]

And he's a member of a church that is not. You know, I think a lot of times in media, you paint, the church, if mentioned, is painted as sort of a villain to oppress well with gay people. And the church is not a villain. The church is a lovely place where Joel is accepted and. And finds community, which was true of me growing up. And then it gets, like, really weird where it's like, he makes vision boards. I make vision boards. He had a Vitamix on his vision board, Rich. I had a Vitamix on my vision board.

[Rachel Martin]

Is that one of those things that they wrote in after? Because they got to know you.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Really?

[Jeff Hiller]

That was in the first draft before they had. I mean, we had shot the pilot, so they did know me, but I hadn't said, like, I really like Vitamixes. That is crazy, because by that point I had already gotten the Vitamix. I got it as a 40th birthday gift from my mother.

[Rachel Martin]

Good.

[Jeff Hiller]

I'm glad that dream came true. It did.

[Rachel Martin]

But you just want to be around this guy. He just feels like light and sunshine and unicorns and everything good in a world that is dark. Like.

[Jeff Hiller]

Right. And he listens to you and he takes you in and he's interesting, but he's also interested and. Yeah. And he's sweet.

[Rachel Martin]

He's so sweet.

[Jeff Hiller]

I want to be friends with sweet people. Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

So there are very few things that happen overnight.

[Jeff Hiller]

Right.

[Rachel Martin]

That's so overused, like overnight success. Although it is in the subtitle of your book, the memoir, which is lovely, came out this summer called Actress of a certain my 20 year trail to Overnight Success. But I mean, your life really did change the night of the Emmys, I have to imagine. Tell me what's different now? How are you putting this into perspective? How do you use it? How do you not get too heady? I don't know.

[Jeff Hiller]

Right. I mean, it hasn't been that long. So, like, I don't have. I don't have a job or anything because of it.

[Rachel Martin]

You're not like, in the next Mission Impossible.

[Jeff Hiller]

I auditioned once to be in a Mission Impossible to play a submarine captain. And I was like, I'm not going to tell them that there's no way I would fit inside a submarine. But apparently they caught on.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay, so you're currently an Emmy Award winning actor who's unemployed. But that's like a normal thing. These things are cyclical.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah, it is. And, you know, it takes time for people to write and, you know, produce and blah, blah, blah. But what I. Oh, God, I could cry just thinking about it. I feel very loved. I feel very part of a community and accepted. Because I think a lot of times you feel.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Outside.

[Jeff Hiller]

And not part of a community of actors or a community of, like, Hollywood people or, you know, I live in New York, so theater people, even. And there has just been such an incredible outpouring of affection toward me that I feel. I actually feel it. Whereas normally I'd be like, oh, they're probably lying. It's just come in such a tidal wave. I can't even ignore it, even with my cynicism. Exactly. Exactly. There was a meme that went around, and so many people sent it to me, and it was a picture of Michael Urie, Bowen, Yang, and Colman Domingo clapping for me. And, you know, they're also openly queer. And it just. It was so beautiful.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, it just is a lovely, lovely thing to happen.

[Jeff Hiller]

And it really was. And it was so. It was just so sweet that they would do that and genuinely feel that.

[Rachel Martin]

You know, and validating, validating after a long. A long slog of seeing other people be chosen. And it's such a fickle business. And it is not so much of people's success does not hinge on your talent. It's just. It's just luck. So much of the time, it is.

[Jeff Hiller]

And that's why I didn't want to do a speech where I was like, I'm proof. I'm proof that if you have a dream, it'll come true. Because I'm not proof. I got really lucky, and I am grateful for that. But if you're an artist who's not getting financial success or awards, it doesn't mean you're not an incredible artist.

[Rachel Martin]

We're gonna do round two. Okay, round two.

[Jeff Hiller]

And which one is this?

[Rachel Martin]

Insights.

[Jeff Hiller]

Insights.

[Rachel Martin]

Just like things you've Learned about yourself. 3 new cards. 1, 2 or 3?

[Jeff Hiller]

3.

[Rachel Martin]

3. How big of a role does fear play in?

[Jeff Hiller]

Not so big.

[Rachel Martin]

No.

[Jeff Hiller]

No. Well, my husband has a lot of anxiety and is often going to the darkest place of possibility, and that's really not me at all. If anything, I often go to the best case scenario.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Do you?

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah. And, you know, then sometimes you're disappointed. But, yeah, I often go to the. Yeah, I will say fear. I'm very afraid of conflict, so that is really present. That's what made me such a bad social worker.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Because.

[Jeff Hiller]

What do you mean? Well, you have to hold people accountable if they haven't done the steps on their case plan. You have to make some tough decisions about, you know, if somebody comes to the shelter and they're high or they're drunk, you have to say you can't stay here for the safety of the other residents and things like that. And, I mean, you get into, like, weird things about, like, patronizing, you know, of saying, like, this is how you should be leading your life. Which I don't ever. I never wanted to get into that. But also, if someone says they're going to apply for three jobs on Tuesday, and they don't, you need to say, that was the commitment you made. And so we need to, you know, have some sort of whatever, you know, consequence. And I'd always be like, well, try to do it on Wednesday.

[Rachel Martin]

How long did you do that?

[Jeff Hiller]

Three years. Yeah, but I was at a shelter for a year, and then I worked with HIV prevention, and I was better at the HIV prevention than I was at, like, being a jobs case manager at a shelter for people under 21. I was much worse at that. And also, like, kids would lash out at me, and I would be. This is. Yeah, this is the better thing to say when kids would lash out at me, which they all did, because, first of all, they're teenagers, so they are always gonna be lashing out. It's like a phase of development. But also they are teenagers who are going through this life crisis, a crisis that. Me at almost 50, I've never had a crisis like that where I didn't know where I was going to sleep tonight. And so it makes them even angrier. And one needs to be understanding of that. And yet, when they would lash out at me, I would cry. I would, like, have to go home and land on the bed. You know, I just was. I wasn't able to let it roll off my back and be like, they're in a crisis situation, and that's what's happening, and that's what made me bad at it.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

I mean, people who dedicate their lives to that work, it's unbelievable. And, yeah, you have to put all fear and insecurity and your emotional reactions to things away so that you can just focus.

[Jeff Hiller]

And you have to be creative to get around all of these bureaucracies and red tape and two issues bumping up against each other, and you get paid nothing.

[Rachel Martin]

Well, there's that, too.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah, exactly.

[Rachel Martin]

Nice. That, too. But I love that you found your husband if the two of you complement each other in that way, because it's not good for two people to live in the fear of things. I get that. And in a lot of troubles in mine, too. We alternate. Like, it's my week to be afraid of the whole world, and you be Strong and positive. And the next week you'll be like, nope, now it's my turn to go into the darkness. But, yeah, you gotta.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah. And it's also about different issues. Like, he's gonna worry about, like, whatever. Will we be eating cat food when we retire? And I'm gonna be worried more about, like, is the waiter gonna get mad if I ask for more water? Whereas he's like, no, we should get more water.

[Rachel Martin]

Obviously. Ask for more water.

[Jeff Hiller]

Exactly.

[Rachel Martin]

Three more cards. One, two or three?

[Jeff Hiller]

Two.

[Rachel Martin]

When do you feel most like an outsider? Hmm.

[Jeff Hiller]

Around heterosexual men? Because it's unfair, but I was very bullied as a kid. I didn't have.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Any.

[Jeff Hiller]

I'm talking peers. Yeah. Straight. I didn't have any friends who were boys. When I finally made some in high school, they weren't really friends. Like, in retrospect, it's like, they were so mean to you, and they kept you around. Cause you were funny, but you were funny because you were, like, being mean to yourself. And then they would continue to be mean to you. They called me Big Bear, which sounds sort of sweet, but they'd be like, cause you're fat. You know what I mean? I was just too. Guitarist.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah, exactly. And so I just never. I always felt scared around straight men. And my mechanism. My coping mechanism now is to roast them, to be kind of mean to them. Like, comedically mean to them.

[Rachel Martin]

Like, not just on stage, like in a social setting.

[Jeff Hiller]

Right, right. And these are mainly comedians that I'm dealing with from the Upright Citizens Brigade Theater. And, you know, a couple of them, the sweet, sensitive souls, have been like, why are you being so mean to me? I feel so. I felt so bad about that.

[Rachel Martin]

The displacement of trauma and.

[Jeff Hiller]

Exactly, exactly. It's like I'm going home and kicking the cat or whatever. Yeah. And I have. You know, I have since become friends with some of those people and. But it's like they had to prove themself to me. Whereas normally, if it were a woman or another queer person, I think they would have to prove themselves untrustworthy.

[Rachel Martin]

Right. Your default is to feel safe with those people.

[Jeff Hiller]

Exactly right. And I want to say I recognize the unfairness in that, but. Yeah. Dims the brakes.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. No, I get it.

[Jeff Hiller]

Do you have a group that you're afraid of?

[Rachel Martin]

I mean, when I. And I've said this before, but when I am. I live in Washington. And every once in a while, when I go to, like, a Washington, a real Washington thing with, like, real Washington people, like TV media stars and Congress people, And just like, rich people. And I'm like, why am I even. What. What am I even doing here? And then it's not like people are rude, but maybe a little. But I just. I myself can't get over my own perception of being an outsider.

[Jeff Hiller]

Totally. Talk about an overnight change. There's a party the night before the Emmys, and I went to that, and I was like, I'm sorry. I'm here. And I had the worst time. And I was just like, oh, where can I be that people don't look like I'm like a loser standing by myself? And then the night of the Emmys, the party after, when I'm holding a gold statue and literally everyone wanted to talk to me because they just wanted to talk to the winners, not like they wanted to talk to me specifically. And talk about your life changing overnight. It was a really different experience of partying.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, totally. Plus, when I'm in those situations, I always fake phone calls. When I just feel like I'm out of place, I always fake phone calls.

[Jeff Hiller]

Where the heck were you On Saturday the 13th?

[Rachel Martin]

I could have called.

[Jeff Hiller]

I really needed.

[Rachel Martin]

And then you could have gone to the corner. But I don't need someone to call me. I literally faked the whole thing. And then I just carried out.

[Jeff Hiller]

I think I'm not doing that in the future.

[Rachel Martin]

Last round. Beliefs, beliefs, beliefs. I've had a few. That's not how the song goes. I don't know why I sang that.

[Jeff Hiller]

No, I'm just gonna. My belief is I'm full of regret. Oh, right. I need to pick a number.

[Rachel Martin]

One, two, three. What?

[Jeff Hiller]

You got three closest to me.

[Rachel Martin]

Is this the one you had in mind? This is what I think is three.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. Yeah, it is closest to me, isn't it?

[Rachel Martin]

Do you think there's any part of us that will live on after we die?

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah. And I know logic says that's not true, but I don't care. That's what I want to believe. I'm not going to make you have to believe that, but, yeah, I do. I am having this moment of success. My mom was my biggest cheerleader. Oh, my God. Am I going to cry again? Oh, God.

[Rachel Martin]

You got the dishes.

[Jeff Hiller]

My mom was my biggest cheerleader, and the idea that she isn't seeing this is, like, too painful to imagine. And so I believe that she's not only seeing it, she's, like, the architect of it. And I know that that's silly. And if you're like, we just Go to dirt. Okay, cool. I'm not gonna try and change your mind, but I do. Yeah. Now, do I believe in, like, heaven with, like, harps and wings? No. But I do believe that. I guess I don't really know what I really specifically believe, but it's something about matter and energy and. And my mom getting to see that I had success. Remind me when she passed 2016. October 9, 2016. Yeah. Yeah. When I hadn't had. When I was like, oh, I hope I can pay my rent this month. Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

My mom died before I met my husband and before I had kids. And it's so weird, like, to have this thing that I wanted very much in my life only materialize after she's gone. And I'm also. Woo woo in that way. She passed in 2009, in May, and I met my husband in October of the same year. And I just. Yeah. I also choose to believe that she had a part in making that happen, because I just choose to. And it makes me feel connected to. It makes me feel connected to her. And that.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah. Worst case scenario, we get to think about our moms.

[Rachel Martin]

Right. Right now. Worst case scenario, we got to share this moment.

[Jeff Hiller]

But, like, exactly. Exactly.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, I agree.

[Jeff Hiller]

I would imagine that's especially hard with kids.

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, it's just so strange. It's just, like, such a strange thing.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

To become. I don't know, I could talk forever about it. Just like, raising children and not knowing that my dad had the nerve to die too. And that was super annoying. You guys, I do not know how to parent. I have no idea. I don't even know if I was supposed to do this. Am I even good at it? And now. Now what? Now I just like winging a prayer. That's what's happening.

[Jeff Hiller]

I bet you'd feel that way even if they were still around, to be honest.

[Rachel Martin]

You're right.

[Jeff Hiller]

You're totally right.

[Rachel Martin]

You're completely. And you know what I'd be saying? I'd be like, oh, my God, mom, that's the worst advice ever. I'm not doing that.

[Jeff Hiller]

Like, okay, Boomer. Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay, Boomer. I know how to do this. I know how to parent. I'm doing it my way.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

My way.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay, three more. One, two or three One, one. Well, how have your feelings about God changed over time?

[Jeff Hiller]

Oh, well, it's probably a big one. That is a big one. And people are really curious about. Because I write about faith in the book, and people are very much like, do you still go to church every Sunday? And I don't Church was really about community for me, and I feel I have found a really great community here. But God, the concept of God, I mean, it's so radically different than it was as a child. As a child, it was very like, I don't know, paternal. In the clouds, beard. Who's maybe gonna punish you.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, I was just gonna say that. I also, you know, grew up in a church, and there's a lot of judgment. There's a lot of. It's a loving God, but also I'm sort of afraid.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah, right. And I want to please you. I want to please you. I want to please you. But I. I think because I had good parents, the paternal thing was nice because I do feel like I felt love from God. And now I. Every time I say this, I always feel like I'm embarrassed. But I improvised a line. I did it in somebody somewhere at the end of season one when I said, this is church.

[Rachel Martin]

Let's set it up so there's a moment and you're with. You're with your people.

[Jeff Hiller]

We're on a party bus.

[Rachel Martin]

Party bus.

[Jeff Hiller]

And we're laughing and having drinks and being silly and dirty and funny. And Joel yells, this is church. This is church. Because he's been having a time with his church because he feels guilty that he lied to his pastor. And I said that because I believed that. I believed that community of friends, having joy together, having true joy, is the presence of God. And I stand by that. Yeah. And also sometimes when I'm writing and I see, like, patterns that I hadn't planned to put in there, being there, I'm like, that was God. Who knows? It sounds so cheesy, but I do believe it.

[Rachel Martin]

You get to.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

You get to.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

Did your parents believe in the other kind? Like the all seeing, like the actual person in the clouds? Yes.

[Jeff Hiller]

But my mom had a huge shift. I kind of think it was spurred by my coming out, but she had a really big shift between that idea of God to that God was. For her. I think it was less about joy and more about serving other people, helping other people, being kind to other people, which she. She did. I mean, she did that even before, but I think that was really where she found God because she was sort of injured by the church too, and felt very disillusioned with some of the pastors that were at her church and who had done some weird things around money and stuff like that. And I think for her, she really moved to a place where she was. Where God was felt in helping other People. Right.

[Rachel Martin]

And she could channel that for herself by just taking those actions, by just helping people.

[Jeff Hiller]

But I mean, even, like going to protests and like doing, you know, kind of radical things for what the woman in Texas would be doing. She really wanted to help all people, especially people who were oppressed because they didn't have money. That was like her real soft spot. She grew up really poor.

[Rachel Martin]

Anyway, she sounds pretty awesome.

[Jeff Hiller]

She really was. She really was.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay, last question. One, two or three?

[Jeff Hiller]

Two, two. I like an even number.

[Rachel Martin]

Who or what is your moral compass?

[Jeff Hiller]

Flip, because it's the last question.

[Rachel Martin]

Flippity doo dah. I think it's an amalgamation of several different people. Like, same as you. I was raised in this in a very religious family, and so I was. My morality was supposed to have been defined by the Bible and these religious tenets and the culture we were living in as a grown up. I still look, for example, I don't know what I'm doing. Right. I don't. My parents set examples for me. And they were both very good people. They were very, very good people. Not perfect people.

[Jeff Hiller]

Sure.

[Rachel Martin]

At all. And so it's not like I would identify them as my sole moral compass, but I take things from each of them, as we all do. I guess if you have like a loving relationship with your parents, but then they're just. There are a couple of different friends I have. I was just with one of them recently celebrating her birthday. And I told her this. I told her that she is. She's not a person I even communicate with on a regular basis, but she. Her choices. This makes me weepy. Just when people come into your life and you're like, you. You have wisdom and integrity and a decency about you that I want to imitate in my life.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah, same. My parents are huge. And I do think about my mom all the time, about what she would do in situations. And then I literally ask my dad for advice all the time too. But I would also say this. Whatever. I'm just gonna say it. Joel. I really feel like he. Yeah, like being him when I played him. Like, you know how like to get into an accent sometimes people have like a phrase or something. And the way that I got into Joel is I just smiled really big. And I do like, people say, like, what are you gonna take away from the show? And I do think I take away his goodness, his being decent to other people and breaking an unjust rule. If the rule is unjust and it's funny. This artist, his name is Jeff Braun. He's Great. He has a website. I don't make any money from it. I'm just telling you, he does these fun things and he has a picture of me as Joel and he has underneath it, wwjd, what would Joel do? And it's cute and it's silly and it's making fun of. You know, in the 80s they had what would Jesus do? But I think it's come true.

[Rachel Martin]

You've been deified.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Wow.

[Rachel Martin]

That's bigger than an Emmy.

[Jeff Hiller]

That's bigger than an Emmy. This is what brought the Beatles down.

[Rachel Martin]

Tread lightly, my friend.

[Jeff Hiller]

I do not believe. I just want to be very emphatic that I do not believe that I am the son of God. I mean, we're all the children of God. Right, but I. I know what you meant. Right. But also, like, I would say, like, you know, the New Testament God, which is, you know, it's cherry picked a lot to say otherwise. But really the main thing that they say over and over again is to love people. I mean, over and over and emphatically.

[Rachel Martin]

They really say it a lot.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Jeff Hiller]

To the point where it's like, have y' all not heard? It's pretty clear. Yeah. And yet, and yet.

[Rachel Martin]

And yet.

[Jeff Hiller]

So I would say. Yeah, I would say that that's a pretty big moral compass as well.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, that's a good one.

[Jeff Hiller]

This is the headline. Jeff Hiller says, follow the Bible and I am the son of God.

[Rachel Martin]

Jeff Hiller, demigod. We end the show the same way every time.

[Jeff Hiller]

I know. Truly, like getting sweaty palms thinking about that. That's awful.

[Rachel Martin]

We end the show the same way every time with a trip in our memory time machine. And through this process, you are transported to one moment in your past. It's not a moment you would change anything about, but try to conjure a moment that you would like to linger in a little longer. Which do you choose?

[Jeff Hiller]

Oh, I know exactly. It was in seventh grade. My hair was permed and my mom took me to SeaWorld. She let me skip school and took me to SeaWorld to give me a special day and reprieve from the horror that was school. And I felt loved and I had fun. And this was pre blackfish.

[Rachel Martin]

Yes. Dark end underbelly of SeaWorld. Yes.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah, exactly. And I felt such joy that day and such closeness with her.

[Rachel Martin]

Jeff Hiller. You can see him in the most excellent show, Somebody somewhere on hbo. And you should also read his memoir. It is called Actress of a certain age. My 20 year trail to overnight success. Jeff, thank you so much for doing this.

[Jeff Hiller]

Thank you. This was fun.

[Rachel Martin]

If you like this episode, then I think you're going to be into my interview with Jeff's friend Bowen Yang. He was just as funny and as lovely as you would hope, which is why it's not a surprise that he was so supportive of Jeff's Emmy win even when he was nominated in the same category. Bowen is great. Go give it a listen. This episode was produced by Lee Hale and edited by Dave Blanchard, and it was mastered by Patrick Murray and Robert Rodriguez. Wildcard's executive producer is Yolanda Sangweni and our theme music is by Ramtin Arablouei. We're gonna shuffle the deck and be back with more next week. Talk to you then.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

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