Jennette McCurdy

Summary

Wild Card with Rachel Martin — Jennette McCurdy

Date: January 22, 2026
Host: Rachel Martin (NPR)
Guest: Jennette McCurdy, author, former actor
Episode Theme: Exploring honesty, anger, safety, and authenticity with Jennette McCurdy

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Episode Overview

This episode features Jennette McCurdy, best known as a former Nickelodeon child star (“iCarly,” “Sam & Cat”), bestselling memoirist (“I’m Glad My Mom Died”), and now novelist (“Half His Age”). Through Rachel Martin’s signature “Wild Card” format, McCurdy draws questions from a deck and discusses topics rarely talked about openly: finding personal safety after childhood trauma, the complexities of anger, the search for belonging, her fraught shift into adulthood, creative freedom, her evolving relationship with faith, and the motivations behind her unflinchingly honest writing.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Understanding Anger as a Defining Emotion

• Anger is the core emotion Jennette understands most, both destructive and creative.
• She relates anger to her history of people-pleasing and learning how resentment signals the need for boundaries.
• Quote (00:21; 32:50):
  Jennette: "I'm trying to, like, literally name any other emotion, and anger is the only one coming up for me...It's just anger, baby."
• On anger’s empowerment:
  Jennette (34:36): “You can't have your boundaries violated over and over and over...without fucking getting angry...Anger just suggests boundaries that need to be set, messages that need to be shared, conversations that need to be started. Anger is so empowering and important, and I still have a lot of it.”

2. The Search for Safety

• McCurdy didn’t feel safe in her childhood, naming high anxiety, OCD, and an abusive mother.
• Unexpected sources of safety: the Mormon church (despite no longer practicing) and Disneyland, both as contained worlds apart from her chaotic family home.
• Quote (03:09):
  Jennette: "My environment felt so unsafe and so chaotic that my little body was working overtime to try to find safety...Now, as a grown woman, I'm really, honestly just beginning to find that safety in myself."
• Disneyland allowed both her and her mother to relax, providing rare childhood relief (04:46).

3. Adulthood vs. Childhood realities

• As a child, she perceived adulthood as “boring,” all logistics and chores (06:13).
• Her actual adulthood has been the opposite: childhood stressful, adulthood fun—she rates her adult life as just “10% boring” (08:43).
• The conversation explores how meaning can be found in mundane routines.

4. Belonging and Finding ‘Real’ Friends

• McCurdy found her people only after publishing her memoir at 30, becoming close with fellow writers.
• Acting as a child did not provide genuine connection—those friendships were more about codependent “enmeshment” (11:22).
• On finding her true friends later in life (10:58): Jennette: “These are my people. These are the people who see me, who get me, who I see, who I get. And I'm so, so, so grateful.”

5. On Her Novel "Half His Age" and the Power of Agency

• The novel explores a taboo teacher-student relationship but focuses on the causes and the fullness of the young woman's experience—McCurdy wants to empower rather than victimize.
• She’s uninterested in safety in art—writing is about risk and uncomfortable truths (17:34):
  Jennette: "Safety is what I want in my body, not in my work. ... The more uncomfortable a thing feels to write, the more important I feel it is to write."
• Writing from anger provided catharsis for her own unprocessed experiences, and she intends for the novel to provoke anger—and reflection—in readers, especially women (19:18).
• The book is both a “love letter and a shake on the shoulders” to her former self and to young women, encouraging them to break cycles of oversexualization and disempowerment (21:23; 21:52).

6. Navigating Career Transformation & Creative Respect

• McCurdy quit acting in her early 20s to write; it took years and her memoir before she felt respected in her new field (26:31).
• She now values work for its risk, honesty, and soul-baring nature, and feels fully accepted in the literary community (26:50).

7. Recovery, Appearance, and Self-Worth

• McCurdy speaks candidly about envy, appearance, and her experience with eating disorders as a result of child stardom (27:58–28:43).
• Eating disorder recovery taught her to prioritize things other than appearance—a perspective that ultimately led her to self-acceptance (29:04, 30:04).
• She offers hope and asserts that full recovery is possible, not just endless “being in recovery” (30:41).
• Quote: “I want anyone who struggles with disordered eating...to hear this, that recovery is possible. Feeling fully recovered, being fully recovered is possible.”

8. Irrational Fears and the Creative Edge

• Jennette’s “irrational” fear is failure—common among the driven, she notes (25:39).
• The fear never goes away; it’s where growth happens (27:14).
• Rachel relates: “That’s where the interesting things happen...at the edge of your fear and your courage, somewhere in between” (27:14).

9. Religion, Spirituality, and Values

• Though no longer Mormon, McCurdy credits the church for an annual values “retool” ritual—updating her life to align with her values (39:25).
• Her relationship to God is open but complicated; she now feels there’s something “out there”—she calls it “the universe” (39:58).
• McCurdy’s faith journey: from anger at religion, to agnosticism, to newfound spiritual curiosity.
• Rachel shares her recent return to church and the sense of beauty and community she’s found (41:16–42:12).

10. Life-Guiding Truths

• The most important truths for Jennette: growth, being creativity-driven (vs. success-driven), and authenticity (43:54).
• Writing remains her safest space for self-expression and freedom—especially the uninhibited “first draft” (46:01).

11. Most Free, and a Moment to Revisit

• “Where do you feel most free?”—when writing, hands down (46:01).
• Emotional end note: the moment she met her partner after her mother died, restoring her ability to trust and shaping her adult life (47:51–50:29).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Safety and Childhood

• (03:09) Jennette: “Now, as a grown woman, I'm really, honestly just beginning to find that safety in myself.”

On Agency for Young Women:

• (14:38) Jennette: “I wanted to empower women. I wanted Waldo to have a degree of agency that I hadn't seen in a book that covers this subject matter.”

On Writing from Anger:

• (19:18) Jennette: “There was so much anger and so much charge when I was writing this. I really like to write from anger. To me…it’s a really mobilizing emotion.”

On Recovery and Self-Acceptance:

• (30:04) Jennette: “Now I love my appearance. I really, really do. And I think that's because of not caring about [it].”

On Artistic Values:

• (43:54) Jennette: “If I'm not growing, I'm wilting, I'm shriveling.…Growth, creativity, and authenticity, I would say, are fundamental truth for me.”

On Writing as Freedom:

• (46:07) Jennette: “My favorite draft…is always gonna be the first draft.…The first draft, where I'm just not using any of my analytical brain…for that first draft, it's complete freedom. It's everything to me.”

On Finding Her Partner:

• (47:51) Jennette (tearing up): “He completely…transformed my belief in people. I was able to trust someone...other than myself for maybe the first time in my life.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:15 — What emotion do you understand best?
• 02:07–05:23 — Where Jennette felt safest as a child & why Disneyland has enduring meaning
• 06:08–09:02 — Her childhood view of adulthood versus reality
• 09:25–11:57 — Finding true connection and friends only after her memoir
• 14:03–22:29 — Deep dive into her new novel “Half His Age,” agency, and anger as creative force
• 23:07–25:23 — Adapting her memoir for TV and the realities of producing
• 25:31–27:58 — Fears of failure, career transition, and authenticity
• 27:58–32:21 — Envy, appearance, and recovery from eating disorders
• 32:50–34:53 — Full-circle on anger and people-pleasing
• 38:20–41:08 — Thoughts on religious background and spirituality after Mormon upbringing
• 43:04–45:44 — The truths and values that guide Jennette’s life
• 46:01–47:29 — Where she feels most free: the first draft
• 47:51–50:29 — The transformative moment of meeting her partner

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Tonal Highlights

The episode is honest, irreverent, and deeply introspective. Jennette’s candor and Rachel’s open rapport make space for exploring not just the darkness but the humor and hope found on the other side of struggle. McCurdy’s willingness to challenge reductive narratives (around trauma, recovery, female empowerment, spirituality) gives the conversation a sharply contemporary, personal tone.

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For listeners seeking inspiration, validation, and a fierce commitment to truth—especially women navigating pressure, recovery, and reinvention—this conversation is as bracing as it is generous.

Transcript

[Announcer]

This message comes from Sony Pictures Classics with the Coral, directed by Nicholas Hittner, written by Alan Bennett, starring Ralph Fiennes as a choir master in 1916. Yorkshire making music as war rages on. Now playing only in theaters.

[Rachel Martin]

What emotion do you understand better than all the others?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Mmm. I'm trying to, like, literally name any other emotion, and anger is the only one coming up for me.

[Announcer]

Let it go.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Let it. It's just anger, baby.

[Rachel Martin]

I'm Rachel Martin, and this is Wildcard, the game where cards control the conversation. Each week, my guest answers questions about their life, questions pulled from a deck of cards. They're allowed to skip one question and to flip one back on me. My guest this week is Jeanette McCurdy.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

To me, work is where I take risks and where I say the things that maybe we're not supposed to say out loud. There's no instinct towards safety for me in writing. There never really has been. It's. It's so the opposite for me.

[Rachel Martin]

If you're a young adult who spent a lot of your childhood watching Nickelodeon, then you know Jennette McCurdy as Sam Puckett from the hit shows iCarly and Salmon Cat. If not, you still might recognize the title of Jeanette's 2022 memoir, I'm glad My Mom Died. Grim title. Excellent book. Turns out this former child star grew up into a writer able to capture some of the darkest parts of human nature with unflinching honesty and devastating humor. Her new book, her first novel, is called Half His Age. And I am so happy to welcome Jennette McCurdy to Wildcard. Hi.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Hi, Rachel. I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

[Rachel Martin]

I'm so happy to talk with you. Round one. You ready?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. Memories. First three cards. Hold up three random cards from our deck, and you pick one, two, or three.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Let's go.

[Rachel Martin]

One, one. Where would you go when you wanted to feel safe as a kid?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Wow. What an amazing question. It couldn't be more timely. I've really been exploring this theme of safety recently, as in, you know, the past sort of three weeks. I do a lot of reflecting. Toward the end of the year, I really reflect on the themes I want to bring into the new year and what I want to just really consider deeply. And for me, currently, it's safety and finding safety in my body, because I think from childhood, I just did not. My environment felt so unsafe and so chaotic that my little body was working overtime to try to find safety, but was really just harboring a lot of Anxiety and a lot of tension and. And had so many little habits and rituals and struggled with ocd. And I think all of that was just a result of not really feeling safe. So now, as a grown woman, I'm really, honestly just beginning to find that safety in myself.

[Rachel Martin]

That is really interesting that that word in particular would be something that you're thinking a lot about in this moment.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Yeah, I kind of can't believe it.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. So we should just say for people who don't know and who haven't read your book. So safety was a big idea. The lack of safety when you were growing up because you had not just a difficult, challenging relationship with your mom was an abusive relationship. So safety would have been not something you were super familiar with growing up, but was there a place that you felt safe?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Thank you for filling in the gaps there. There are two places that come to mind strangely. So I grew up Mormon or lds as. As they call it, Latter Day Saints.

[Rachel Martin]

Yep.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

You know, as complicated of a relationship as I eventually grew to have with the religion. No longer not a practicing Mormon at all, but I felt safety in those walls, and I felt camaraderie and I felt security. And then the other place, sort of. I was gonna say for the opposite end of the spectrum, but it's kind of the same end of the spectrum. Disneyland. I'm so glad you brought up Disneyland.

[Rachel Martin]

Because it is like this through line in everything you make, Jeanette.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

There's a lot Disneyland references. Thank you for noticing. If there's any theme that's gonna carry through my work for all time, it will be Disney.

[Rachel Martin]

I love it.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Why?

[Rachel Martin]

What felt safe about Disneyland?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I think. What was it? You know, I feel very unsafe at Disneyland, as do most people. I feel like, you know, it's just Disneyland. There's so many people.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. So many lines. So many, well, smouse ears.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

When I grew up at Disney, I was not privy to the crowds that it has now. It just was a different time. And so I was used to a very sort of empty Disney experience where I could just run around freely and not. It felt like my worries were left behind. And also it was a place where I saw my mother's worries left behind. She seemed. She could still be on edge. We could still be walking on eggshells around her at Disney, but it was a lot better. She seemed to sort of calm down and enjoy herself at Disney, and I saw that, and it definitely had an impact on me.

[Rachel Martin]

Do you still go back now that you're working on safety in general as, like, A theme in your life. Do you still go back to Disney?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I do, I do, I do. I'm actually taking a trip to Southeast Asia soon and I'll be going to Disney in Hong Kong.

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, you do all the Disney's?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I do all the Disney's. You're talking to a real Disney adult here, Rachel. Don't underestimate me, okay?

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, my God. I feel like that's a whole other episode. We could just talk about Disney.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I'm ready if you want to just cut it out. I mean, we could just keep going. Let's see.

[Rachel Martin]

Maybe it'll come up again. I feel like it might. Okay, three more cards. One, two or three?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Three.

[Announcer]

Three.

[Rachel Martin]

What did you think adulthood would look like when you were a kid?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Wow, that's a good one.

[Rachel Martin]

That was good one. I love this one.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

So what that brings to mind is just being under the table, crouched under the table at a friend's place or a family friend's place, and all the grown ups are sitting around talking and I'm just under the table and the tablecloth's draped over and I'm just kind of looking at their legs and the body language of their legs and one person's tapping their foot and another one's kind of twisting their ankle. And it just seemed like adulthood was so boring. They're always talking about, like, logistics. I'm like, what? This is terrible. Like, oh, and then we have to pick up the pork chop from Ralph's and then if you want to drop her off at the soccer practice, it's just like, somebody make this thing more exciting. I was so scared of Ralph.

[Rachel Martin]

Just being a lot of grown upness is logistics.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I was so scared it would be boring. It's a lot more. It's a lot more fun than I expected. I feel like I've had a reverse experience where childhood was quite stressful and adulthood is quite fun. But it doesn't look interesting to you?

[Rachel Martin]

So you're not excited to get there?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Yeah, no, thank you.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, I get that. I mean, it can be boring and it can also be beautiful. Okay, three more.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Do you think it's more boring or beautiful? What's the percentage? What would you give beautiful?

[Rachel Martin]

I'm into adulthood. I'm into it. Yeah. I'm into the small things. It's like you change your perspective. I spend a lot of this part of my life schlepping my children around in cars because now they're old enough to have a little bit of a life, but they need me to facilitate it. Which means driving them from this point in their life to this point. And that's super tedious. But it's also, like, when I get annoyed about it, I just sit. I'm like, this is awesome. I got my kids attention. Or if there are other kids in the back, I'm like, I get to see them in their, like, natural habitat and see how they interact. So, you know, not to get all precious about it, but I do think that I'm, you know, how lucky that I got to be an adult, that I even got to be here in this moment, in this carpool. And so even the boring things, I think you have the power to, like, imbue them with meaning, and then they feel less boring, you know, that's great. There you go. What's your percentage on boring versus? I mean, you're a grown up. You're a Grown up. Jennette McCurdy. Boring. Exciting.

[Sponsor Voice]

I would say.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I think I would go really low on boring. I would say I'm gonna go like, 10% boring. Yeah, that's pretty good. I think I feel like I've gotten it to a good. Yeah, a good level. I don't feel very bored very often. And if I do, that's my problem. I gotta find something else to do.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, right. We tell our kids all the time, you gotta learn how to be bored in life. And, like, if you're bored, there's nothing boring. Just sit. Or even being bored. I love being bored. Cause it basically means I don't have anything going on. And so I have permission to go stare at that wall, which can sometimes be awesome. Like, I think I wish I had more time to stare at a wall. Last one in this round. 1, 2 or 3?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

1.

[Rachel Martin]

When did you first find a group of peers who really understood you? Ah.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

After my memoir came out. I had actually. So the memoir came out when I was 30. I'm 33 now. Throughout my 20s, I had. I quit acting when I was 23, almost 24. And I committed fully to writing. And of course, didn't get anywhere with it for years, which I think was great. I think I needed to spend that time finding my voice and figuring out structure and all that. And so in retrospect, it was really good that I had that time to myself. But in the moment, it was challenging. I didn't really feel that I had a friend group, a solid support system, and I really, really craved one. I crave deep connections. I crave genuine connections and deep conversations and really knowing people. And I just thought, God, when Is that gonna happen? Maybe it won't. And then, of course, every year as I'm getting closer to 30 at that time, I was like, oh, once I'm 30, it's all said and done, like, nothing will change after that. Then my memoir came out, and I was 30 and I found my friend group. Since then, I've become friends with so many wonderful writers. These are my people. These are the people who see me, who get me, who I see, who I get. And I'm so, so, so grateful. It's one of the things I'm most grateful for over the past few years. I mean, having a writing career in the first place, but really, really having found friends in my support system, in my group and my people through writing.

[Rachel Martin]

It'S a lot of years to not have had that. And it's especially notable since so much of your childhood was an adolescence, was with your peers in this, you know, acting in these shows where it's sort of from the outside. You would think, oh, they're all friends and they have this little life together, and they're all living through shared experience. And surely those would be bonds that would last a long time.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I had some friends, you know, growing up and in my early 20s, but it was. They just weren't those deep connections. It was sort of rooted in that codependent enmesh dynamic that I think we all, or many of us know from our late teens and our early 20s. And I think that served a purpose and that was right for that time. But then you go your separate ways and you're kind of just going, okay, well, when will I find the real ones? When will I find the real friends? And I'm really grateful to have that now.

[Rachel Martin]

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[Rachel Martin]

Okay, let's talk about your book.

[Announcer]

Yay. Yay.

[Rachel Martin]

Half his Age. It is called this Book. Congratulations again.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Thank you.

[Rachel Martin]

So this is a novel. I will attempt to describe this in a couple sentences and you can add on as you see fit on the surface. It's about a 17 year old high school student named Waldo who falls into relationship with her creative writing teacher who is a 40 year old man who was also married with a child.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

This book is less interested in, you know, the taboo itself of a student teacher dynamic relationship and is more interested in the entire portrait of a young woman and all of the contributing factors that lead her to fall for that teacher in the first place. So I really wanted to paint that full picture and also I wanted to empower women. I wanted Waldo to have a degree of agency that I hadn't seen in a book that covers this subject matter. I really, really that felt so important to me to find some shred of empowerment in a place where typically it'd be really hard to find. But it was so important for me to include that.

[Rachel Martin]

I will admit to you it was hard for me to be in that dynamic in the beginning because it just felt wrong to me. I'm like, I had such a visceral reaction to this guy and I was just like sort of wanted to punch him in the face. And me too.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

As we all should, I think. Yeah, I hope.

[Rachel Martin]

But part of me was like why are we. Is it dangerous to hold up this dynamic at all and shine a light on it. What do you think about that?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Is it dangerous to hold up this dynamic at all and shine a light on it? I mean, I feel like it's so important to shine a light on it. I feel like the only way out is through. No, to me, that's. I believe that.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. Cause it happens all the time. It happens.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

It absolutely happens. And I think, you know, there's no part of me that romanticizes this dynamic. I stay completely in Waldo's perspective, this young woman's perspective from front to back.

[Rachel Martin]

She comes off even in this relationship. She just is so self assured. She's just. Yeah, she has so much confidence, like far more. And talent, clearly more talent than she realizes she has more confidence than she realizes she has.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I'm so glad you bring this up because I'm so interested in writing female characters who do have more talent than they're given credit for or than they even realize, who have so much potential but were dealt a shitty hand. And so they're living in these circumstances that don't help them to take their lives to the next level. And I don't want to victimize these young women. I want to hopefully give them power to assert themselves and find that better path for themselves.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, it's weird we were talking about safety earlier. It doesn't feel. It's not like a super safe book. Like the experience of reading it. It's interesting that way. It doesn't feel safe.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

No. Safety is what I want in my body, not in my work. You know what I mean? I think, like, to me, work is where I take risks and where I say the things that maybe we're not supposed to say out loud. The more uncomfortable a thing feels to write, the more important I feel it is to write. I try to start conversations. I try to leave my soul on the line with what I write. And so there's no instinct towards safety for me in writing. There never really has been. It's so the opposite for me. I want to ask you more about your discomfort. I'm so curious. I love when somebody gets uncomfortable reading something I've written. Is like my favorite.

[Rachel Martin]

It's just like, Maybe it's that I just didn't want this to happen to her and I didn't want. I wanted more for her from the beginning. And this.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

She deserves more. Right?

[Rachel Martin]

She deserves more. And you just, you know, the second you pick it up and you read the first, you're like, this is gonna be bad. I know. This is not gonna end well, Waldo.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

And.

[Rachel Martin]

So I felt like I knew where the book was going.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

And then it flipped. But in the beginning, I was like, I don't know if I can stay here because I'm so angry. Wow.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I just got full body chills because that's. There was so much anger and so much charge. When I was writing this, I really liked to write from anger. To me, it's. For me, it's a really. You know, it's such a mobilizing emotion. But I think it's where I write best from because it's just so charged. I'm such a feeler when I write like, I write just with my heart. There's no other way for me. And, you know, as I was writing the book, I was thinking, you know, why this? Why now? Why am I writing this? Why am I writing? Why? Why is this coming out now? And I try, okay, let me not analyze it. Let me just keep writing and trust the process. This is what's coming out. And then several drafts in, I realized, oh, it's because I have so much unprocessed anger about situations from my own past. Men that I've been with, ways that I've been treated and, you know, boundaries that I didn't express for myself, ways that I behaved where I just didn't empower myself. Didn't, to your earlier point, didn't recognize my own power, didn't recognize my own authority. Things that I'm just now, at 33, over the past few years, just now starting to come into contact with and realize and appreciate and believe in. And I just had so much anger. And I felt as I was writing it, as. Or as I was wrapping it up and looking back on it, I thought, oh, I think this is gonna bring up a lot of anger for a lot of women. I think that's. If there was one emotion I think it's gonna bring forward for people. I think it's that.

[Rachel Martin]

And now you.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

And I think that's great.

[Rachel Martin]

You have now opened things in me, like looking about my own experience and as so many of us have experiences that aren't like what Waldo had necessarily, but things that were not right and being mistreated and made to have felt over sexualized and. And maybe that's what I'm mad about. Yeah, maybe I'm mad about all those other things.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I will say that piece about being over sexualized. I think it's also common as a young woman to confuse sex with power, because there are systems around us and just so many obstacles at play. Right.

[Rachel Martin]

And when you're Young, you know, you get to, oh, I'm getting attention over here. Yeah. That sort of makes me feel good.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Yes.

[Rachel Martin]

Maybe I have some kind of control over this.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Yes. I remember when I first felt attractive to men, when I first started feeling that. I did confuse that with power. I thought that was power. Now I, of course, completely recognize that it is. Not that it's really more disastrous, but at the time it felt like that. And I wish I could, in a way, maybe this is a love letter to that former version of myself and other young women where it's, you know, I just want to. It's both a love letter and a shake on the shoulders, you know, of. There are other choices. There are other options. Wake up. You know, this is. Things can be better than this.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. You deserve better.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Yes. Yes.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay, before we leave this moment.

[Sponsor Voice]

I.

[Rachel Martin]

Have to ask about the TV adaption of your memoir. Congratulations on that.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Thank you. Thanks.

[Rachel Martin]

This is a big deal. Jennifer Aniston's gonna play the role of your mother in this. Not bad at acting. How do you feel about that material? Like now looking at it not as your life and not as your memoir, but as material for a show, like a good story, I imagine it requires some kind of compartmentalization because you're gonna be involved in the show.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Yes, heavily involved. I'm showrunning, executive producing, created it, of course, and then I'm writing all 10 episodes. So, yes, I'm also playing all the characters. Could you imagine.

[Rachel Martin]

Like Sarah Snook in the Dorian Gray.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I love her so much. Yeah, it's, you know, I had a bit of distance from it even when I wrote the memoir. I wouldn't have written the memoir had I not had that distance from it. I do think it, you know, it was so pivotal that I have perspective on my life. It was by no means my diary entries, you know, on display. This was something that I had a lot of distance from and a lot of. Yeah, a lot of hard earned perspective and insights that I thought I had to offer. And so it was, to be clear at that point, also a piece of work. And I was able to view it as that. But of course, it is my life, you know, and that also can't be denied or ignored. And that's something I've recognized with the show adaptation because this is. There's a lot of people involved. There are a lot of cooks in the kitchen. And navigating that is, you know, requires a specific set of skills that I've had to learn very quickly because I was not, I Was never behind the camera. I was never doing this kind of work growing up. And what I realize now is, oh, talent is shielded from everything. If you're in front of the camera, you don't hear anything. You don't hear shit. You know nothing. Everybody's like, oh, protect the actor. Don't tell the actor. They are coddled, handled, managed, told nothing. Right?

[Rachel Martin]

Now you know it all.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Now I know it all.

[Rachel Martin]

And, baby, it's dark. It's dark.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

It is dark. I'm like. I try to have a sense of humor about it and try to just remind myself, you know what? I'm writing my books. Like, I've got my books. I couldn't be happier with the books that I write and with.

[Announcer]

That.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

System, for whatever reason, just the system of the publishing industry. People say what they mean and mean what they say. Doesn't mean you always like it. But there's no. You don't have to read between the lines and question things. That's hard. Really, really, really appreciate the literary world so, so much.

[Rachel Martin]

Next round, insights. Three new cards. You pick one, two, or three.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I'm gonna go one again. I'm drawn to the ones.

[Rachel Martin]

Do it. Go with what feels good? What's an irrational fear you can't shake?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I'll tell you, my thought process on this. It's like, it's not an irrational fear, I don't think. I feel like it's a fairly rational fear for most everybody. Failure, like, failure's the thing. I mean, that's right. I feel like that's for everyone. I'm sure. I mean, you tell me if you have it or not, but I feel like anybody who is driven has some degree of that. I know I have plenty of it. I try to not let that lead my actions or dictate any decisions that I make creatively, but it's. Of course, there.

[Rachel Martin]

Does that feel. Has that abated after your memoir? Cause I imagine there was a lot of anxiety about that thing. I mean, not only is it your life, it's like, now, please take me seriously this way, creatively, as a writer where you haven't known me that way, but it's who you wanted to be known as. The stakes were high.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

No. Yeah. I'm glad you bring that up. It was. I did really care about being taken seriously. I take my work very. I take my work very seriously. But I also, you know, I also have humor in the things that I write. So I hope the things that I write aren't, like, up their own asses. They're not.

[Rachel Martin]

Thank you.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Thanks. I'm glad. Great. Mission accomplished. But no, I did want to be taken seriously. I did want respect, you know, that's something I didn't feel I had in my former career, and I do feel I have that now. And I'm really grateful for that. I feel very accepted in the literary world. I feel valued here, and so I feel. I feel so, so grateful. But I would say there's some degree of that that's there. I don't know if that's ever. You can ever shake it.

[Rachel Martin]

No, that's the spark, right? You gotta. You live on the edge, you know, you have to learn how to manage that fear. But it also. Isn't that where the interesting things happen? It's like at the edge of your fear and your courage, like, somewhere in between, like.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Yeah, the growth edge. There you go.

[Rachel Martin]

That's the good stuff right there.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Absolutely. I hope people watch these videos. I know a lot of people listen, but I hope anybody listening considers watching the videos, because Rachel's hand gesticulations are really something.

[Rachel Martin]

I am a gesticulator. It was really lost on radio, I gotta admit. It was really lost. Okay, three more. One, two or three, two, two. When has envy been a problem for you?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Ooh, when has envy been a problem for me? In my teen years, I wanted to. I'm thinking actually of appearance. I think this. Not to bring it back to the novel, but I think there's also Walder, the protagonist of the novel, feels some of this herself, where it's. You just want to look the opposite way that you do. You just. Like I had, you know, I have really curly hair. I just wanted bones. I wanted nothing more than, like, bone, straight, limp, lifeless model hair. Like, just. Whereas you got three strands and they're just slightly bent. That's what I wanted. You know, I had a bit of acne and I really, of course, I wanted clear skin.

[Rachel Martin]

Well, so much of what you did was about your physical appearance. It was like how your value was measured. So much of it. Anyway.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Yeah, I'm glad you noticed that, because I will say the shift for me actually happened when I entered eating disorder recovery in my early 20s. And it was eye opening for me. And these concepts and questions that were posed now, of course, sound so simple, but I genuinely hadn't considered them. I think because of growing up in the entertainment industry and the value system that I mentioned, there are certain. There's a certain lens that Hollywood looks at people with. And so I kind of had that same lens because I Grew up in that world. But then I enter recovery and my therapist, you know, said, what if you don't have to look? Because I thought the whole point was about, you know, loving your appearance. That's why you go into eating sort of recovery, so you can get to loving your parents. He goes, what if it's not? What if it's about prioritizing other things over your appearance, Valuing other things more than your appearance. That was a genuine life changer for me. I thought, oh, wait, I don't have to. You tell me, I don't have to love this thing or accept it. I can just care about other things more. What completely shifted the paradigm for me and changed everything. And funny enough, now I love my appearance. I really. I really, really do. And I think that's because of not caring about it.

[Rachel Martin]

For not caring about it.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Yeah, for some pivotal years, just readjusting your focal point.

[Rachel Martin]

And it was your focal point for so long. And so to be able to get out of that is a big deal. To have had that sickness for so long when you were young and to now be an adult and be able to look back on that and appreciate how far you've come and learning to deprioritize that surface stuff and then coming around to loving how you look is pretty remarkable.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Jeanette, thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I'm really proud of overcoming multiple eating disorders. It was hard earned and something. It's a message that I do hope to share with women because there's often there are these narratives around eating disorder recovery and that you're always in recovery, you're never recovered. It's always something you have to keep an eye out for. You always have to be mindful. And of course, I get keeping an eye out occasionally, whatever. But I also, from. From where I am today, I have a healed relationship with food. I eat whatever I want, whenever I want. I love food. I can't believe there were times when, I mean, I can't relate to my past self in so many ways, which I'm so grateful for. But I want women to hear. I want. I mean, anyone who struggles with disordered eating, I want to hear this, that recovery is possible. Feeling fully recovered, being fully recovered is possible. It's not something that has to haunt you for the rest of your life. I mentioned earlier with the novel wanting to share this message of agency. And it does feel really important. I think there are too many narratives out there that just keep us stuck and keep us feeling powerless and keep us feeling like victims. And I think it's so important that we overcome those narratives for ourselves and for our own health, healing, and recovery. Not to get too. I became very TED Talky. No, I'm into it.

[Rachel Martin]

So many people are afflicted with that. And I just feel like you can't say it enough. You can't get that message out to young people and really young women enough right now. Oh, so great. I liked your TikTok. Last one in this round. 1, 2 or 3?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

1.

[Rachel Martin]

What's something you think very differently about today than you did 10 years ago?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I feel like that fits into everything I just said about the food, the eating. Should we pick a different one? Yeah, let's do. Okay, let's skip.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay. So what emotion do you understand better than all the others?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I'm so curious for your answer on this as well. For me, I'll have to say I'm trying to, like, literally name any other emotion and anger is the only one coming up for me. Let it go. Let it out. It's just anger, baby.

[Rachel Martin]

I've said that answer, though, when people have flipped.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Really?

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

So you go first?

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, you go first.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Well, no, I think, you know, I grew up as such a people pleaser, as such a, you know, being Mormon, being the good girl, being my mommy's good girl and homeschooled and in the entertainment industry and please like me, casting director and please like me, director and just desperate, starved for validation to the point that I completely surrendered and abandoned my own identity for any shred of approval I could get, regardless of if the person who was approving of me was somebody I respected or not. Oh, that didn't matter who cared about that. It was just, please love me, please accept me, please validate me, please, please, please, please, please. And I think the thing about people pleasers that isn't really talked about is they're the most resentful, angry people out there. Because you can't have your boundaries violated over and over and over. You can't surrender your own wants and needs over and over and over without fucking getting angry. It's just not possible. And so I think what I was left with post eating disorder recovery, because of course that was covering up and suppressing so many of my emotions that it was a very helpful coping mechanism for the time that I needed it for. But getting to the other side of all that, I was then left with anger. And now I mentioned earlier, I think of it as such a mobilizing emotion. I think it's something I really channel in a healthy way. And effectively through the things that I write. But it's something that I feel like anger just suggests boundaries that need to be set, messages that need to be shared, conversations that need to be started. Anger is so empowering and important, and I still have a lot of it. So there's a lot more to come because everybody does.

[Rachel Martin]

And the whole thing is like learning how to express it and how to wield it and not let it be so disproportionate that it paralyzes you and you can't get out of it. I mean, why I have answered this question when it's been flipped on me with anger, too, and it's because of the verb understand, because I do. I do get angry. I mean, ask my children. I definitely get angry, but I'm not an angry person. But I have angry people in my life and I have touched those moments of real anger. And so I feel like I do understand it. I understand a lot of where anger comes from. I understand its utility. And I. Yeah, I think women in particular have a hard time just being angry. Like feeling permission to feel angry. Yes. Don't we all get to be angry sometimes? Like, there's a lot of shit you want to yell about and be angry. And, you know, you don't want to be a difficult woman. You don't want to be an angry woman. And so I'm for people having the space and the agency to feel anger. It is an appropriate emotion. And then you gotta learn how to express it and not destabilize other people with it who are just innocent bystanders to your rage. Those are my thoughts.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Beautifully said. Beautifully said. Put that on a shirt that is so.

[Rachel Martin]

Oh my God. Can you imagine that would be so many words.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Put that in with a card. Debt. Include the T shirt.

[Sponsor Voice]

This message comes From NPR sponsor 1Password. Anyone else? Feel like 99% of your emails and texts are password reset codes trusted by millions of users and over 175,000 businesses. 1Password lets you skip the resets and sign in securely with strong, unique passwords that autofill across all your devices. You can safely share logins, store cards and files. And finally, stop using your pet's name as a password. Try it free for two weeks at 1Password.com NPR this message comes from NPR sponsor Capella University. Interested in a quality online education. Capella is accredited by the Higher Learning Commission. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn [e-mail] Support for NPR and the following message come from Warby Parker, the One stop shop for all your vision needs. They offer expertly crafted prescription eyewear plus contacts, eye exams and more. For everything you need to see, visit your nearest Warby Parker store or head to warbyparker.com this message comes from Carvana.

[Announcer]

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[Rachel Martin]

Okay, last round. Beliefs, beliefs, beliefs. It's what you think it is. One, two or three?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

One. One.

[Rachel Martin]

Boom. What's the most religious thing about you.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

That I grew up Mormon. Can I say that I was. Yeah, I.

[Rachel Martin]

How did that change you? What does that mean for who you are today? You said it was a safe place for you when you were young, but what is the imprint of that religious inheritance on you?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

It was a safe place when I was younger. And while I don't, I certainly don't agree with a lot of what they stand for and think it's really quite harmful to various communities and dangerous, frankly. I do think there was an emphasis on values that I really took from the church, and that's something that.

[Rachel Martin]

I.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Literally do a values retool every year. I mentioned December. I really kind of consider. I reflect on the previous year, and I consider the year to come. And what do I really want to take with me? What are the themes I want to explore? Do I want to do a little values tune up? Where. What do I still. Am I living by the values that I said I live by? And if not, does that mean it's time to change my values, or does that mean that I need to change some things in my life? And I think that's something that I learned from the church.

[Rachel Martin]

Is God a thing for you?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Yeah, I would say a gentleman, newer relationship for me, candidly, because I had, you know, speaking of anger, I had a lot of anger toward the church and toward growing up in it. And, you know, I mentioned earlier that I really struggled with ocd, and it's kind of complicated. I go into it a bit in my memoir, but I had confused what we're told is the Holy Ghost with my ocd. So I thought it was the Holy Ghost talking to me, when in fact it was just mental illness. So that was its own sort of its own obstacle. But as a result of that, coming out of, you know, my teens and my early 20s, I just felt anger toward religion at large, the religion I grew up in. And so I didn't really. I just said, oh, No, I don't believe in God. I was just angry. And now, of course, I think there's something else out there. Of course I think there's something bigger than me, than us, but it's. You know, I usually say the universe. That's kind of my. The language I use. That's what feels best to me. But.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

How about you?

[Announcer]

Yeah.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I'm curious if you have any specific sort of practices or rituals or anything that.

[Rachel Martin]

I literally just started going to church.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

No kidding?

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. I started going to an Episcopal church two months ago. I have not done that.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Are you in trouble?

[Rachel Martin]

I have not. It is not. There are parts of it, but for so many years, I was just. I would go into a place like that and I would just judge, judge, judge. And I'm like, this isn't right. This isn't right. This isn't right. And it was just like the perfect being the enemy of the good. And I just decided to release all that and be like, this is a beautiful space. And in this space and this person on this day said an interesting thing, and I took something away from that. And isn't that lucky? Some days there's not an interesting thing that I take away, but I sit in a gorgeous space and I'm quiet and I listen to music that I really like. I like, like old timey, churchy music. No drums. And then afterwards, I meet my neighbors and people talk about volunteering, and I feel a sense of community that I was lacking. And so I'm sort of into it right now, to be honest.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

That's beautiful. It sounds so wholesome.

[Rachel Martin]

I mean, I don't know.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Do you guys make casseroles or casseroles involved? I feel like casseroles have to be involved in church activity.

[Rachel Martin]

I feel like there's a. A pasta night that's gonna happen.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Oh, for sure. Somebody's bringing bolognese.

[Rachel Martin]

Someone's bringing bolognese.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I don't know what it is.

[Rachel Martin]

Some pizza and it's gonna be you. It might be. God, I'm so bad at cooking, but it might be me. It might be. I don't know. We're. See, right now I'm just on the edge. I'm not a real joiner. I don't. I'm not. I'm historically not a joiner. So right now I'm still in an observation kind of situation. So we'll see.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

We'll see.

[Announcer]

Cool.

[Rachel Martin]

Good luck.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I hope it.

[Rachel Martin]

Thanks.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

It's great.

[Rachel Martin]

It's the thing. It's the thing. I'm trying on three more cards. 1, 2, or 3?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

2.

[Rachel Martin]

What truth guides your life more than any other?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Wow. What truth guides your life more than any other? This is one of. This is. I feel. I can already feel that this will be the one on the way home that I'm like, should have said that. Like, I'll have a better answer on the way home. I already know this is, like, a big one.

[Rachel Martin]

It's not really fair to ask someone to, like, sum it up, but, you know, whatever. It's my show.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

What is it? It's what truth is.

[Rachel Martin]

What truth guides your life more than any other? Like, at the end of the year, when you do your values retrospective, is there something consistent that shows up on your list that you're like, this is how I look at the world. This is who I want to be. This is the truth I want to live.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

My values are, you know, I really, really value growth. That's the. The most important one for me. If I'm not growing, I'm wilting, I'm shriveling. I really want to feel that year to year I've grown. That can be in any category, can look a number of different ways. It doesn't have to look one specific way or be in one specific area. But growth is so important to me. And creativity, specifically, the distinction between creativity and success. Being creativity driven, as opposed to success driven. That's something I've been really exploring this year and want to bring with me into the new year and years to come. And then authenticity is really, really so. So could not be more important to me. Authenticity, whether somebody likes it or not. Setting boundaries that align with my authenticity. Saying no when I mean it. Yes when I mean it. Asking the questions I want to ask and showing up fully as myself, which in certain contexts is more difficult than others. Showing. I think it's no coincidence that I'm a writer because that was where I felt safest to just be all of myself. I felt like the page can contain all of me, you know, I don't know. I would feel uncomfortable. Can I show up on this zoom and be all of me? I don't know. There's certain settings and systems at play and dances that need to be done and social niceties and. Can I be all of myself at this party? Well, probably not, because you have 30 seconds of small talk with everybody and, you know, you gotta do the dance of socializing. And so I've felt it on the page longer than I felt it in my life, and only this year am I starting to go okay, how can I be. How can I show up fully, authentically, me for whatever that is that day? How can I do that? And that's so. Yeah, Growth, creativity, and authenticity, I would say, are fundamental truth for me.

[Rachel Martin]

Last question. I don't want one to accidentally stick up higher than okay, 1, 2, or 3.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Too bad it's still gonna be 1. Even though it didn't stick up higher, we're still going one.

[Rachel Martin]

Where do you feel most free?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

When I'm writing, that's so easy. That's like, hands down.

[Rachel Martin]

What does that look like?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Easiest answer, you're alone in your head. Yeah, I'm alone. I don't really. Sometimes I'll play music to kind of prime, but I don't write with music. I try to keep it as quiet as possible in my office downstairs. I've got, like, all the beverages, so I've recently stopped coffee, but I'll do it. I've got a decaf, Usually in, like, a Christmas mug. I collect Christmas mugs from anthropology. They're my favorites. I'll have a big liter of water. I'll have a green juice. And specifically, I mean, my favorite draft, of course, is always gonna be the first draft. Then the real work begins after the first draft. But the first draft, where I'm just not using any of my analytical brain, where I'm not assessing anything or second guessing anything, my critical mind comes into play after the first draft, is all instinct, all feeling for me, and I just. Just feel my way through that first draft. And I really, really. With the quote, how will I know what I think until I see what I say? And so then I look back through that first draft, and then I go, okay, what am I trying to say? And then I. Then I become critical and whatever. And there are many drafts to come after that, but for that first draft, it's complete freedom. Um, it's. Yeah, it's. It's everything to me.

[Rachel Martin]

We end the show the same way every time, with a trip in our memory time machine. You go back in time and you revisit one moment from your past. It's not a moment you want to change anything about. It's just a moment you'd like to linger in a little longer. Which moment do you choose?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I almost made it through the whole thing without getting emotional. Now here it comes at the tail end. I'm thinking of the moment when I met my partner. We met 11 years ago. We've been together nine years. And he's the best person I. Oh, he's the best person I've met, and I love him so much. You dedicated this to him. I did, yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

And I. And he.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

You know, it was a time in my life. It was shortly after my mother had died, and I really was lacking trust for people and really just seeking. I mentioned, not really having found my friend group. I was. I was so wanting connection and so craving trust. And then he came into the picture, and he completely. I mean, transformed my belief in people. I was able to trust someone, you know, other than myself for maybe the first time in my life. And, you know, of course, so many beautiful things have unfolded since then, but I really consider that relationship the birthplace of so many of the key pieces of my life that I'm so grateful for.

[Rachel Martin]

Now, can you tell me a detail about the day or the moment you met?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Yeah, we met through a mutual friend. So he had invited us both to this restaurant that's actually. No longer. I thought it would be so fun to do, like, a date night there. And it's no longer around, but it was in Los Feliz. And when I. He walked into the room, he was wearing this blue varsity jacket, these white Converse, and these black jeans and a white T shirt, which I would discover was his only outfit. Like, he only had the same. He was like Charlie Brown, where he only had white T shirts, black jeans, and then multiple jeans. He had a uniform, and then he had. Yeah, exactly. His little blue jacket that he'd pop on top. He didn't want to think about it, didn't want to be bothered. And he walked in the room. And up to this point, anybody that I'd been with romantically, I had felt a real urgency towards them. A profound. Like, I have to be with them. Hungry? Starved. I need to be with them now.

[Rachel Martin]

Right.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

And with him, there was no urgency. It was this knowing, bring it back to my body, in my body, that this person's really important to my life, and there is no need to rush. And it was calm, and it was assured, and it was right.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

The body doesn't lie.

[Rachel Martin]

Hmm. Jeanette McCurdy, what a lovely thing it was to be in conversation with you. Thank you for doing it.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

You, too. I really, really enjoyed this. I found it really fulfilling in a deep way.

[Rachel Martin]

I'm so glad you can read Jeanette's newest work. It is a novel called Half His Age.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Thanks, lady.

[Rachel Martin]

I appreciate it.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Thank you.

[Rachel Martin]

Hey, if you like this episode, I recommend checking out the conversation I had with another great novelist, Taffy Brodesser Achner. Taffy is the author of Long Island Compromise and Fleischman is in trouble and she had an answer about feeling safe whenever she's in motion. And it was incredibly beautiful. You should check it out. Today's episode was produced by Lee Hale and Mitra Arthur. It was edited by Dave Blanchard, it was mastered by Becky Brown and Andy Huether. Wildcard's executive producers Yolanda Sangweni and our theme music is by Ramtin Arablouei. You can reach out to [e-mail] we'll shuffle the deck and be back with more next week. Talk to you then.

[Announcer]

This message comes from Midi health co founders Dr. Kathleen Jordan and CEO Joanna Strober discuss why they started a virtual care platform for women in perimenopause and menopause.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

The symptoms and experiences that women have in midlife I think were underappreciated or possibly even trivialized. The changes of perimenopause and menopause create a broad spectrum of symptoms and can actually lead to long term health issues, but too few clinicians are trained in it.

[Joanna Strober]

I also want to add often the type of care that women are needing is very iterative. It requires trying different medications, learning about their body and learning how to take care of themselves. And so what we've tried to do at Midi Health is create a new type of care system that is responsive to women's needs and helps them take care of themselves and stay healthy instead of just treating disease.

[Announcer]

Midi Health committed to helping women in midlife with perimenopause and menopause care. Accessible via telehealth [e-mail] this message comes from Grammarly from emails to reports and project proposals, it's hard to meet the demands of today's competing priorities without some help. Grammarly is the essential AI communication assistant that boosts your productivity at work so you can get more of what you need done faster. Just a few clicks can tailor your tone and writing so you come across exactly as you intend. Get time back to focus on your high impact work. Download Grammarly for [e-mail] podcast that's Grammarly.com podcast.