Jenny Han insists on hope

Summary

Wild Card with Rachel Martin – Episode Summary: "Jenny Han Insists on Hope"

Released: July 3, 2025

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Introduction

In this captivating episode of NPR's "Wild Card," host Rachel Martin engages in a profound and heartwarming conversation with Jenny Han, the acclaimed author and showrunner behind the beloved series To All the Boys I've Loved Before and The Summer I Turned Pretty. Recognized by The New York Times as a Top 10 Podcast of 2024, "Wild Card" distinguishes itself by moving away from traditional interview formats. Instead, Martin employs a unique deck of cards that prompt guests to explore life's most significant questions, uncovering personal insights and untold stories.

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Childhood and Familial Responsibilities

The dialogue begins with Jenny Han reflecting on her upbringing as the eldest child in an immigrant family. At [00:34], she shares:

“I was sort of their translator and adult in the world.”

Han elaborates on the responsibilities she assumed from a young age, often acting as an intermediary between her parents and the broader society. This early exposure to adult responsibilities fostered her ability to make decisive choices and heightened her awareness of potential dangers—a trait she acknowledges has profoundly influenced her career as a showrunner.

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Navigating Parental Relationships and Trust

Han delves into her relationship with her parents, highlighting their unwavering support despite their inherent worries. At [04:01], she recounts:

“My parents have always trusted me to, in many ways, lead the family.”

When Han decided to pursue a master’s degree in creative writing in New York, her parents expressed confidence in her abilities, assuring her that her talent would guide her through uncertainties. This mutual trust not only empowered Han but also solidified her leadership role within her family dynamic.

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Self-Perception: Then and Now

Addressing the question, "What do you admire about your teenage self?" Han offers a compelling perspective at [05:31]:

“I feel like I'm still the same person. I still love to write, and I still love spending time with my friends and my family.”

This continuity underscores Han's enduring passion for storytelling and meaningful relationships. She emphasizes that the essence of who she is has remained consistent over the years, seamlessly bridging her teenage experiences with her current life as a successful author and creator.

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Challenges of Representation in Media

A pivotal moment in the conversation revolves around the challenges Han faced in getting her novel To All the Boys I've Loved Before adapted into a film. At [09:17], she candidly discusses:

“None of them are like, Asian. And I'm like, no, but her spirit is Asian American, so that doesn't work. And that's the end of the conversation.”

Han highlights the industry's reluctance to cast Asian American actresses in lead roles, revealing the systemic barriers to representation. Her steadfast refusal to compromise on authentic casting underscores her commitment to diversity, a stance that has since contributed to the cultural shifts observed in media adaptations over the past decade.

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The Centrality of Love in Storytelling

Exploring the theme of love in her narratives, Han states at [11:14]:

“I think that at the end of your life... you're thinking about the people you loved.”

For Han, love is not merely a plot device but the emotional core that drives her stories. She believes that relationships and connections are what truly resonate with audiences, providing depth and relatability to her characters and their journeys.

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Writing for Youth vs. Adults: The Role of Hope

Han differentiates her approach when writing for young adults compared to adult audiences. At [13:10], she asserts:

“I really must insist on hope because... for a YA writer, I care about my readers.”

She emphasizes the responsibility she feels towards her younger readers, striving to craft hopeful endings that inspire and uplift. This deliberate focus on optimism distinguishes her work for young audiences, ensuring that her stories contribute positively to their emotional well-being.

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Personal Preferences and Emotional Depth

During the "Round Two Insights" segment, Han reveals her personal comforts and emotional understandings. When discussing her susceptibility to embarrassment and shame, she shares at [17:00]:

“I think I am very shame forward... It’s the only emotion that you can feel it as acutely right now as you did in the moment.”

Han connects her profound sense of shame to her writing process, channeling these intense emotions into her characters and narratives. This vulnerability allows her to create authentic and relatable experiences for her readers.

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Overcoming Personal Crises and Realizing Priorities

Han opens up about a deeply personal experience involving a health scare of someone close to her. Between [21:42] and [26:32], she reflects:

“It really matters is the people that you love are like, okay. And the rest of it just fades away.”

This harrowing experience reinforced Han's perspective on what truly matters in life—prioritizing loved ones over external achievements or worries. It also influenced her storytelling, emphasizing themes of resilience, hope, and the enduring bonds of love.

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Connection to Heritage and Universality of Human Experience

At [26:36], Han muses on her sense of smallness in the universe and her connection to past generations:

“We're all just the same. And even, you know, like, living in caves had the same intensity and like, complexity of feeling.”

She marvels at the continuity of human emotions and experiences across time, fostering a sense of being part of something larger than oneself. This reflection inspires her to create stories that resonate universally, bridging gaps between generations and cultures.

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Memory Time Machine: Cherished Moments with Family

Concluding the episode, Han engages in the "Memory Time Machine" segment, choosing to revisit cherished afternoons with her grandfather. She poignantly shares at [31:44]:

“I remember holding hands and eating an Eskimo pie... he is my buddy.”

This heartfelt reminiscence encapsulates the episode's overarching themes of love, family, and the enduring impact of personal connections. It serves as a testament to the profound influence of familial bonds on her life and work.

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Conclusion

Throughout this enriching episode, Jenny Han offers listeners an intimate glimpse into her life, creative ethos, and the values that underpin her storytelling. From navigating cultural representation in media to exploring deep-seated emotions and personal growth, Han's insistence on hope and authenticity resonates powerfully. Rachel Martin adeptly steers the conversation, ensuring a seamless flow that blends personal anecdotes with broader societal insights. For fans and newcomers alike, this episode serves as both an inspiring narrative and a profound exploration of what it means to create stories that touch the heart.

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Notable Quotes:

• "I must insist on hope." — Jenny Han [01:02]

• "I was sort of their translator and adult in the world." — Jenny Han [02:42]

• "I think I am very shame forward... It’s the only emotion that you can feel it as acutely right now as you did in the moment." — Jenny Han [17:00]

• "If you think about spent enough time with them... there's nothing more important than that." — Jenny Han [23:00]

• "We're all just the same... it makes you feel small in a really good way." — Jenny Han [26:44]

Note: Timestamps correspond to the podcast transcript and are approximate.

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Further Listening

If you found this conversation insightful, consider exploring previous episodes featuring other esteemed Young Adult authors like John Green and Jason Reynolds. Each episode delves deep into the minds of storytellers who shape the landscape of contemporary literature and media.

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Produced by Summer Tomad, edited by Dave Blanchard, and mastered by Maggie Luthar. Executive Producer: Yolanda Senga. Theme music by Ramtin Arablouei.

Transcript

[Rachel Martin]

Support for this podcast and the following message come from Dignity Memorial. For many families, remembering loved ones means honoring the details that made them unique. Dignity Memorial is dedicated to professionalism and compassion. In every detail of a life celebration, find a provider near [e-mail] what emotion do you understand better than all the others?

[Jenny Han]

I would say embarrassment. I think I am very shame forward and I think to me it's the only emotion that you can feel it as acutely right now as you did in the moment.

[Rachel Martin]

I'm Rachel Martin and this is Wild Card, the show where cards control the conversation. Each week my guest answers questions about their life. Questions pulled from a deck of cards. They're allowed to skip one question and to flip one back on me. My guest this week is writer and showrunner Jenny Han.

[Jenny Han]

I really must admit, insist on hope. And I do think that that is, for me, the only real difference between writing stories for a young audience and for adults is a hopeful ending.

[Rachel Martin]

As of this summer, I am officially the parent of a teenager. And I'm ready for all the beauty and emotional messiness that this experience will bring. Because we all know that this stage of life is. I don't know, I guess I'll use the word intense. It is so intense. The rampant insecur. Insecurity about our bodies or our social status or our parents expectations. I remember all of that and personally I was just desperate to get on the other side of adolescence. Jenny Han also struggled with parts of her teenage years, but instead of locking it all away in some mental box and moving on with her life, Jenny made it her life. Her books are a modern take on the timeless challenges of growing up. And yes, that includes the ecstasy and agony of a first love. Her best selling series include to all the Boys I've Loved before and the Summer I Turned Pretty, both of which were turned into shows or feature films. Season 3 of the Summer I Turned Pretty comes out on Prime Video July 16th. And I am so very happy to welcome Jenny Han to Wildcard. Hi, Jenny.

[Jenny Han]

Hi. Hi.

[Rachel Martin]

How do you feel?

[Jenny Han]

I'm in the zone. I'm ready.

[Rachel Martin]

All right, so first three cards, we're in the memories round. One, Two or three?

[Jenny Han]

One.

[Rachel Martin]

One. What's an experience from childhood when you realized your parents were only human?

[Jenny Han]

I would say that as a oldest child of immigrants, I never had a moment of oh my gosh, they're human. Because from as long as I can remember, I was sort of their translator and adult in the world. So I don't think it was ever an aha type of thing, because I was always having to help out with stuff with my parents or even, like, you know, going to McDonald's. I would always, like, order because they couldn't understand their accent. And then I would have to do it anyways or going to the store, and then the salesperson would talk to me, even though I'm seven and my parents are obviously adults. So I think, again, it was just, I think the reality for kids who have parents who are immigrants and English is their second language. And it's what has, I think, prepared me so well to, you know, be a showrunner or a director, because I'm used to making decisions. I mean, I talk about this in therapy all the time. My issue is I'm always, like, scanning the horizon for danger, like, at all times.

[Rachel Martin]

How has all this affected your relationship with your parents today?

[Jenny Han]

I think they have always, like. I remember when I told them I was going to move to New York and get my master's in creative writing and take out all these loans to do it right. It was after I graduated college. And my parents are both worriers. They worry about everything. And I thought they were gonna be worried about that, but my mom said to me, I'm not worried at all, because your talent with writing. So I think, so whatever you think is best. And so it always has been. Jenny, you know better than us. So you. Whatever you wanna do or whatever you think is right is what you should be doing. That I'm gonna take out, you know, $35,000 in loans and do this, and there's no guarantee at the end of it that you're going to have a job. You have no idea. It's a creative field. But I think I really did feel that confidence because they had always trusted me to, in many ways, like, lead the family.

[Rachel Martin]

I mean, it worked out. And it worked out about your instinct was right.

[Jenny Han]

Yeah. And they were, like, always really supportive of that.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay, one, two or three?

[Jenny Han]

Let's go with three. Three.

[Rachel Martin]

What do you admire about your teenage self? This one's apropos.

[Jenny Han]

Mm. You know what? It's so weird, but I don't know that I, like, have a delineation between my teenage self and my self as a woman in her 40s, in a way, like, I feel like I'm still the same person. I still love to write, and I still love, you know, spending time with my friends and my family and cooking and all those things. So, I mean, that girl at 16 versus this woman today, I don't know I guess I'm not. It still feels like I'm the same me. I guess all of this kind of leads to the fact that I started writing for young people and I didn't really see a difference between young people and adults in the same way that I think a lot of people do. Like, people will say to me, oh, I love your show, but I'm too old for it. And I'm like, there's no such thing. It's just like people, you know? And I think for me, writing for young people and writing about those stories has always been about wanting to approach it with respect and not ever feel like it was minimizing or talking down to the experience when you have no one to eat with at lunch. That's really like humiliating and hard. And I don't think that's so different than something today as what I experienced as a grownup.

[Rachel Martin]

Support for this podcast and the following message come from Dignity Memorial for many families, remembering loved ones means honoring the details that made them unique. Dignity Memorial is dedicated to professionalism and compassion in every detail of a life celebration. Find a provider near [e-mail] this message comes from Britbox.

[C]

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[Rachel Martin]

Okay, so I want to pull back from the game a little bit because we, we need to talk about all of your projects. There are so many things because you don't. I mean, you started out, you were writing books and you were real good at telling stories. And now these stories have become these massive, massive hits in popular culture in the form of TV shows and feature films. I mean, was, was owning your own media empire part of the grand plan when you set out?

[Jenny Han]

It wasn't. It was honestly, to all The Boys I've Loved before is the first one of my books that was adapted. And it's strange to say this now because I think people have a short memory of things and how far things have moved culturally. But nobody wanted to make it into a movie because they didn't want. They knew that in their minds it wasn't gonna get people to the theater if we couldn't get somebody who was like a green lightable actress to star in it. And so there were so few Asian American actors that were the leads of anything, that it was just the protagonist.

[Rachel Martin]

The main character in the book is Asian American. Asian American.

[Jenny Han]

And so with to all the boys, studios were interested in it. And then I would talk to them and they're naming names and none of them are like, Asian. And I'm going, well, that doesn't.

[Rachel Martin]

And they're white. They're white young actresses. Yeah.

[Jenny Han]

Yes.

[Rachel Martin]

What did you say in those moments?

[Jenny Han]

I was like. Cause one of them said, you know. Cause they named a couple of names of like, young actresses that were big at the time. And I was like, well, the character's Asian American, though. And they were like, well, as long as, like, her spirit is the actress. Spirit is like Lara Jean, then I think that's what really matters. And I was like, no, but her spirit is Asian American, so that doesn't work. And that's the end of the conversation. So, you know, that was a red line for me. It just was. But I think again, that was in 2017, 2018, 2016. It was all in that time. And it's only been. It hasn't even been 10 years. And that now there have been shifts since then.

[Rachel Martin]

What do you love about writing about love?

[Jenny Han]

I think that at the end of your life, when you look back on everything and you think, you know, was this a life worth living? You're thinking about the people you loved. You're thinking not about necessarily work or ambition or those things. I think you think about your family, you think about your loved ones. And if you think about spent enough time with them. And I don't think there's anything more important than that. And so when I'm watching any story, I always like to watch a story with some sort of component of that. Because, like, I obviously want Katniss to, you know, win the war and fight against the Capitol, obviously. But obviously what am I, like? What is my, like, heart breaking for? It's like, you know, when Peeta was like, ripped away from her and she. Like, that is important also, you know, like.

[Rachel Martin]

And so Hunger Games, for those who don't know or not cluing into these.

[Jenny Han]

Name references, you know, like, that's what makes it feel real. And that's what you really care about. And that's what I care about. I care about, obviously, the resistance and everything, but, you know, if I'm watching the Walking Dead or like a zombie thing, you're caring that they. That they're going to make it out and that they can find some way to have a semblance of a life of zombie love. Yeah, you're rooting for zombie love, something. No.

[Rachel Martin]

I mean, so am I. So we have to give the people what they want. So season three is coming up of the Summer I Turned Pretty. These are based on the books, but for people who have not read the books and are just watching the show, I know you can't say, but do you in general like a happy ending? Do you like a messier ending? What can you tell us?

[Jenny Han]

I like a hopeful ending. I don't like too neat of an ending.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay.

[Jenny Han]

Personally. But I really must insist on hope because if something ends in such an.

[Rachel Martin]

Oblique way, if you're gonna insist on.

[Jenny Han]

Anything, that's what I insist on. And I do think that that is, for me, the only real difference between writing stories for a young audience and for adults is a helpful ending. And it's because as a YA writer, I care about my readers. Like, I do feel a responsibility in that sense. I would never want someone to read my book and then want to cause, like, self harm or feel like, deeply depressed after reading that. And then that would mean that because they're still a child, you know, you are responsible for them to some degree, I feel. And it's different, though, for adults. Adults can, you know, you can decide for yourself and you have an adult brain. But for young people, I want them to feel hopeful. I want them to feel good about themselves and good about the world around them. That's important to me. I mean, the third season, the characters are older. They are now adults. They are in their 20s. They're in their.

[Rachel Martin]

We should just say the main character, Belly, is trapped in a love triangle and with two guys she's grown up with. And she has to choose one. I mean, this is basically. She doesn't or not.

[Jenny Han]

I don't think she has to choose one.

[Rachel Martin]

I think she may or may not. I think that she's pulled in both directions.

[Jenny Han]

That is the, like, tragedy of the story is that no matter what, you're going to be hurting somebody that you love dearly.

[Rachel Martin]

But we're still going to feel hope at the end.

[Jenny Han]

You will still feel hope, I think. I hope so.

[Rachel Martin]

All we can do is hope for hope. Hope for hope. Okay, you ready for more game?

[Jenny Han]

Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

Round two insights. Three new cards. One, Two or three?

[Jenny Han]

Three.

[Rachel Martin]

Three.

[Jenny Han]

What?

[Rachel Martin]

Are you okay being selfish about?

[Jenny Han]

I'm very fine Being selfish about staying in a nice hotel.

[Rachel Martin]

Same girl? Same.

[Jenny Han]

The older I get, the more I'm like, I just can't. I really don't want to, like, sleep in an uncomfortable place. I know I'm selfish about that. Oh. I also get carsick really easily, so I do like to be in the front seat.

[Rachel Martin]

Do you have to drive or, like, can you be in a passenger seat?

[Jenny Han]

I can be in the passenger seat.

[Rachel Martin]

You can be in the passenger.

[Jenny Han]

Yes. And I do like to control the music.

[Rachel Martin]

I mean, you're right there. You're the passenger seat.

[Jenny Han]

Yeah, I guess those are my top things. Those are good.

[Rachel Martin]

Those are good. One, two or three?

[Jenny Han]

One.

[Rachel Martin]

What does age teach you about love?

[Jenny Han]

Let's go. Two.

[Rachel Martin]

You know, I read that and I was like, oh, that's a Jenny Han Solo.

[Jenny Han]

No. Indeed.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay, here we go. What emotion do you understand better than all the others?

[Jenny Han]

I would say. Well, this. I like this question. I would say embarrassment.

[Rachel Martin]

Hmm.

[Jenny Han]

I think I am very shame forward. Like, I easily feel shame. I think it's again, like feeling embarrassed all the time as a kid. And I think, to me, this is a really important one because I feel that it's the only emotion that you can feel it as acutely right now as you did in the moment. Like, I don't think it really fades when you think back to something that you said to somebody that was really embarrassing, that you really, like, shamed yourself. I feel it. I feel it like I'm right back in ninth grade and I said something so dumb. And I think love and hate and anger, all that can fade, but I think kind of humiliation and shame feel to me very close to the surface.

[Rachel Martin]

And when you're writing, I mean, I guess it's not your shame, it's your imagination. So you're conjuring these shameful situations.

[Jenny Han]

Well, I'll funnel it out of myself. I pour it, you know, into the. Into the story. Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

Do you ever write actual experiences that happened to you that were shameful, or do you try to not go straight for the jugular that way?

[Jenny Han]

I definitely do.

[Rachel Martin]

Out of self preservation. Really?

[Jenny Han]

Oh, yeah, I definitely do. And sometimes it's by accident. Yeah, I often like. Well, this one was about someone else's shame.

[Rachel Martin]

Where.

[Jenny Han]

So in my first book, Shug, there's a moment where she like executes a beautiful dive off a diving board and like she feels like so good about herself and then realizes like when she got home that she, her back of the bathing suit has a huge hole in the butt. And I've put that in the book and I'm like, oh yeah, this feels, this is like really like a pungent, kind of a potent memory feeling. Didn't happen to me. And my sister read it. She was like, oh, I can't believe you put Sandy's story in there. And I was like, what? And she was like my cousin when they were, oh God, they were around that age, they were at a water park and they were in line for a ride and then there were these older boys behind them who were like laughing and then they turned and looked and then they realized that like my cousin's butt was like, it was like her bathing suit was completely open. So I was like, oh yeah, that's where that came from. Yeah. So I did. I put that in there without realizing it.

[Rachel Martin]

Then did your cousin just read the book and she never mentioned it?

[Jenny Han]

Now she might see the memory. Maybe she'll see this and be like, well, thanks Jen. Thanks a lot.

[C]

This message comes from Britbox. The stories you remember are often the ones you didn't see coming. Britbox invites you to see it differently with British tv. Shake up the everyday and discover worlds that are new, unexpected and perhaps just what you were looking for. Stream British series, including new Britbox original Mystery Ludwig starring Peep Show's David Mitchell. See it differently when you stream the best of British TV with BritBox. Watch with a free trial at BritBox.com this message comes from Create your oasis with Thuma, a modern design company that specializes in furniture and home goods by stripping away everything but the essential. Thuma makes elevated beds with premium materials and intentional details with clean lines, subtle curves and minimalist style. The Thuma bed collection is available in four signature finishes to match any design aesthetic. To get $100 towards your first bed purchase, go to Thuma Co NPR this.

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[Jenny Han]

Beliefs.

[Rachel Martin]

You got Those. Right.

[Jenny Han]

Oh, my gosh. You really put me through it.

[Rachel Martin]

I'm just kidding. One, two or three?

[Jenny Han]

Okay. One, two or three? Okay, well, which one do you think I should pick? Jenny? Okay, fine. 2.

[Rachel Martin]

What's something you no longer take for granted?

[Jenny Han]

I. Oh, my gosh, now I'm gonna cry. Don't. There was a moment where someone who I love dearly, we thought they might be very sick. And so we were waiting. It was a holiday. We were waiting to find out the results. And we weren't able to even get the tests and stuff until after the holiday. And then it was like a long wait. And so it was like a good month of not knowing. And I just remember I was like, really, like, beside myself. I couldn't stop crying every single day. I couldn't even, like, get up because I was so worried. Because I was thinking, okay, well I could take off and move to this other place because this is where there was like a hospital for this particular illness. I was like, really going down. The sort of like my issue I brought up before about scanning the horizon for danger and then like, gaming out every single thing. It was like $100,000 a month for this. These, like, tests, these, like, trials, clinical trials, experimental therapies. Yeah, yeah. And I was like, how do I. And I had been thinking about buying an apartment at that time, and I was thinking that I have that and I could sort of, like, figure that out. And then it turned out that he didn't have that. But what became so clear was that, like, really nothing else, like, mattered except for his health. And it's such a good, like, reminder and I guess, like, wake up call and like, lesson, because, you know, sure. Like, I hope that the third season of Summer I Turned Pretty is a hit. And I hope people love it. I mean, that's my biggest thing is I really want people to love it and I want people to feel satisfied with it. But in the end, like, it doesn't really matter. Like, what matters is the people that you love are like, okay. And the rest of it just fades away. Like, it's not ultimately that important in the grand scheme of, like, your life, you know? And so that I think. And I remember feeling that relief when we found out that he didn't have that. But, like, I felt like I don't ever want to lose this clarity that I'm having right now, you know, because it feels like a gift to even have that. Like, it's like a near death experience, you know? And I also.

[Rachel Martin]

This is the mind in The.

[Jenny Han]

Yeah, it was like, this is all that matters and nothing else really, really does. And it sounds, I guess, trite, but it's really true. It's really true. And I think alongside that, I also had a moment of thinking I never also want to be the person who is, like, seeing somebody who is, you know, like, sick or going through something and then thinking, oh, my gosh, we're so lucky. Or, you know, whenever you hear about, like, a school shooting or those things happening, and then people are like, hold your kids a little tighter tonight. And, like, I understand that, like, sentiment behind that, but at the same time, it's like, almost you're getting your relief off of, like, other people's, like, huge pain and tragedy, you know, and it could be you. That's the thing is, was, I guess, a part of my clarity of going, like, that could be you, just, like, that. It could be anybody. And so don't, like, take your comfort off of, like, other people's, like, pain, you know, because I think it's a common thing to do. I think of, like, gosh, I'm like, oh, well, we're so lucky that that's, like, not us, you know, but you're not really thinking about the person who is experiencing that. And then it's just like, the. I guess, well, luck of the draw. You draw that card and it's you. So try not to, I guess, have that.

[Rachel Martin]

I think that's. I think that's a really important point, and I think that does happen to a lot of people. You know, you practice appreciation, but only in comparison to someone else's pain. Like, and you can be grateful. You can have appreciation that does not have to stand in contrast to someone else's tragedy.

[Jenny Han]

I think it's a very normal human response to have that immediate feeling. But I also think it's good to sort of interrogate that feeling and think, like, maybe if not, like, positive or, like, helpful.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, I agree. And I'm glad your person in your life is better.

[Jenny Han]

Thank you.

[Rachel Martin]

Three more. One, two or three.

[Jenny Han]

One, one of.

[Rachel Martin]

When do you think about your smallness in the universe?

[Jenny Han]

I love, like, going when I'm. I. I love museums that are about, like, how people lived. Like, you know, it's sort of like, I don't know, when you go and you just see what it was like 500 years ago in that place. I really like that because you just think how, like, connected we all are, and it makes you feel like a part of something bigger. I remember reading about this. I think they found Some sort of in a cave or some sort of artifact of a love letter that a woman had written from like a thousand years ago. They found this letter. It was in Korean. And then she said her husband had died. And she said in this letter it was like, at night I can still, like, feel your arms around me. And it was like the most romantic letter. And I just thought, wow, like, sometimes you even look at like, your parents and you go, or like people from another time and you're like, did they know love? Did they, like, live in the same way? Do they feel things, like, as sharply as we do? And to see that artifact, you think every. We're all just the same. And even, you know, like, I don't know, people like living in caves had the same intensity and like, complexity of like, of feeling and like, emotion. And that makes me feel small in a really good way.

[Rachel Martin]

I mean, I love all instances that, that make you feel connected to, to ancestors and wake us up to their full humanity instead of these, like one dimensional representations that you often get in history books.

[Jenny Han]

It's hard to picture it, you know, it's hard to see them as that. And you just think that every. I think every generation feels like this is. No one's ever experienced this before. Exactly.

[Rachel Martin]

This embarrassment. No one's ever seen a butt on the diving board or whatever that story is. No one's ever felt my pain in this way. And it is such a helpful reminder that everything that we're going through has been done before so many times.

[Jenny Han]

It really is.

[Rachel Martin]

This is the last question.

[Jenny Han]

Jenny Han, Thank God. I'm really going through it. Okay, one, two, three. I guess I'll do three.

[Rachel Martin]

Three. Where do you feel most free?

[Jenny Han]

I feel very free with my family because they have seen me at my worst moments and they still want to be around me. And so I feel very free to be, you know, whoever in whatever mood I'm in.

[Rachel Martin]

That's such a lucky thing. You know that, right?

[Jenny Han]

What?

[Rachel Martin]

Like that family is not often the place that people feel most free, is it not?

[Jenny Han]

I mean, don't you feel like unconditional love? I guess.

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, of course. That's. I feel like that's different. Unconditional love and really feeling.

[Jenny Han]

Is it free?

[Rachel Martin]

I think it's a gift. Yeah, I think, I think that's a special. I think that's a special thing. I don't think everybody. I don't think that's a given for everybody.

[Jenny Han]

I'm fortunate.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, it sounds like you are. And they watch all your stuff and read do they prefer to read your stuff or watch or both?

[Jenny Han]

Well, English is their second language, so my mom has read all my books in English. But it's also great that they're published in Korean too, so she can. So she reads both. She likes to look to, like, almost side by side to make sure she's understanding all the sort of nuances.

[Rachel Martin]

Wow, that's a dedicated reader.

[Jenny Han]

Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

And does she ever have notes for you or she's just.

[Jenny Han]

No, she doesn't.

[Rachel Martin]

You trust your instinct. You wrote a good book. The end.

[Jenny Han]

No, she just. She just likes it. She likes it all.

[Rachel Martin]

Jenny Han, thank you for doing this. We have one more request. We end the show the same way every time.

[Jenny Han]

Okay.

[Rachel Martin]

With a trip in our memory time machine. In the memory time machine, you get to revisit one moment from your past. It is not a moment you want to change anything about. It's just a moment you would like to linger in a little longer. What moment do you choose?

[Jenny Han]

Am I going back and I'm just observing the moment or am I like, am I living it? Living in it? Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

You're not separate from it.

[Jenny Han]

You're living it. My gosh. But I love.

[Rachel Martin]

I'd love that you asked that clarification question.

[Jenny Han]

You know what? I'll pick. I will pick an afternoon with my grandpa, and I will pick that. I will pick us up. Going to get his hair cut, and I remember holding hands and eating an Eskimo pie, and I guess I must have been like four or five, but it's one of my earliest memories. But we were very close and he has since passed away, but he lived with us and I was just like, he is my buddy and I think I would like to go back and see him again.

[Rachel Martin]

Did he often take you to get his haircut?

[Jenny Han]

I think I just went with him wherever I used to. We used to sit there and he sit in his armchair and I would sit in his lap and we'd watch Sanford and Son and the Price is Right. He didn't speak English and he couldn't walk very well. So I think I picked that one because that time he could still walk and I liked holding his hand.

[Rachel Martin]

Season 3 of the Summer I Turned Pretty is out on Prime Video July 16th. Jenny Han, thank you so much for doing this. I appreciate it.

[Jenny Han]

Thank you for having me. This has been lovely.

[Rachel Martin]

If you like that conversation, you should go back and check out my other YA author episodes, John Green and Jason Reynolds. Both of these conversations are honestly two of my favorites ever on the show. They are both full of wisdom and so much humanity. I am serious. Please go listen to these episodes right now if you haven't done so before. This episode was produced by Summer Tomad and edited by Dave Blanchard. It was mastered by Maggie Luthar. Wildcard's executive producer is Yolanda Senga. Our theme music is by Ramtin Arablouei. You can reach out to [e-mail] we're going to shuffle the deck and be back with more next week. Talk to you then.

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