Jonathan Groff lost his faith while spelunking

Summary

Wild Card with Rachel Martin: Jonathan Groff Lost His Faith While Spelunking

Episode Overview Released on May 15, 2025, Wild Card with Rachel Martin features Broadway sensation Jonathan Groff in an intimate and unconventional conversation. Unlike typical interview podcasts, Wild Card employs a unique deck of cards to guide discussions, prompting guests to delve into personal and profound topics. This episode navigates Jonathan's journey through faith, identity, and artistic expression, offering listeners a deep dive into his life beyond the stage.

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1. Introduction and Setting the Stage

Rachel Martin kicks off the episode by highlighting Jonathan Groff's illustrious career in Broadway, including his roles in Spring Awakening, Hamilton, and his Tony-winning performance in Merrily We Roll Along. She underscores Jonathan's dedication to his craft, emphasizing how his performances are an embodiment of living out his purpose.

Notable Quote:

"When I watch Jonathan Groff perform, it is more than just watching a person do what they love. It's watching a person live out their purpose." — Rachel Martin [02:16]

Jonathan expresses his appreciation for Rachel's heartfelt introduction, setting a warm and genuine tone for the conversation.

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2. Early Memories and Musical Influences

The "Memories" round begins with Rachel prompting Jonathan to share where he sought refuge during his teenage years. Jonathan reminisces about his childhood bedroom dominated by giant boomboxes—a gift from his parents. Music became his sanctuary, with genres ranging from musicals to Britney Spears, illustrating his early connection to the performing arts.

Notable Quote:

"I would go there and I would put on musicals. So I was a huge musical theater nerd in high school." — Jonathan Groff [03:11]

He touches upon discovering A New Brain, a musical with a central gay romance, which resonated deeply with him, providing comfort and a sense of belonging during his formative years.

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3. Embracing His Hometown and Identity

In response to what Jonathan has learned to appreciate about his hometown over time, he shares his love for Lancaster, Pennsylvania—a conservative community. Despite leaving at 19 to pursue acting in New York, Jonathan has maintained strong ties to his roots. Purchasing a house near his father's horse farm in 2019 allowed him to blend his professional life with personal fulfillment. He envisions transforming the farm into an artist retreat, bridging his artistic endeavors with familial bonds.

Notable Quote:

"I've learned to be myself and be home at the same time. There's still a lot of dissonance and challenge in that, but it's been great to sort of be able with open arms, to embrace." — Jonathan Groff [07:12]

Jonathan also acknowledges the growing acceptance of the LGBTQ community in Lancaster, highlighting the dual sense of community he now enjoys.

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4. Parental Influences and Pursuit of Passion

Jonathan delves into the values instilled by his parents, who encouraged him to pursue his passions despite societal expectations. His father's decision to become a horse trainer instead of taking over the family dairy farm and his mother's dedication to sports amidst limited opportunities for women in her time serve as foundational examples of following one's calling.

Notable Quote:

"They taught me from a young age that pursuing your passion was something worthwhile." — Jonathan Groff [10:31]

This upbringing fostered Jonathan's own commitment to the arts, even when his parents didn't fully grasp his interest in theater.

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5. Current Projects: Just in Time

Jonathan discusses his latest venture, a musical about singer Bobby Darin titled Just in Time. The project stems from an impromptu idea during a Night of Bobby Darin event, which spiraled into a full-fledged musical under the direction of Alex Timbers. Jonathan's performance seamlessly transitions from himself to embodying Bobby Darin, aiming to capture the essence and magic of Darin's live performances.

Notable Quote:

"I can become Bobby Darin as the story goes along, and so that it completely works." — Jonathan Groff [15:00]

Rachel praises the show, noting its ability to bridge personal connection with historical narrative, making Bobby Darin's story accessible and compelling to new audiences.

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6. Handling Criticism and Personal Growth

In the "Insights" round, Jonathan candidly discusses his struggles with becoming defensive when receiving criticism, especially in areas outside his expertise, such as learning the piano for his role in Just in Time. He reflects on his growth over the years, emphasizing the importance of viewing feedback as a tool for improvement rather than a personal attack.

Notable Quote:

"It's an art to be able to take notes and not, like, become defensive or take it personally." — Jonathan Groff [21:13]

This self-awareness underscores his dedication to continuous personal and professional development.

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7. Shouldering Weight and Embracing Authenticity

Jonathan opens up about the emotional burden of concealing his sexual identity in a conservative environment. The loss of his partner, Gavin Creel, served as a pivotal moment that propelled him to fully embrace his identity, leading to a more authentic and fulfilling life. He credits supportive communities and personal relationships for helping him navigate this transformative journey.

Notable Quote:

"When I came out, I decided to not care anymore about fame or success. I said goodbye to that." — Jonathan Groff [27:24]

Rachel empathizes with his experience, recognizing how releasing this weight has empowered him to handle other challenges in his career.

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8. Letting Go of Religious Beliefs

In the "Beliefs" round, Jonathan recounts a pivotal experience during a Youth for Christ camp spelunking exercise. The association between religious expectations and personal discomfort led him to question and ultimately let go of his Methodist faith. Instead, he found spiritual fulfillment in theater, appreciating its ability to evoke genuine emotions and foster a sense of community.

Notable Quote:

"Theater became my spiritual home. And I let go of that specific Methodist belief." — Jonathan Groff [34:17]

This transition highlights the profound impact of personal experiences on shaping one's beliefs and passions.

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9. The Spirituality of Performance

Jonathan describes his performances as a form of prayer—moments of genuine connection and shared emotion between the performer and the audience. He emphasizes the sacredness of this interaction, where love and gratitude are openly expressed, mirroring the intimacy and vulnerability of spiritual rituals.

Notable Quote:

"There's a kind of love affair between performer and audience that is in the air in this show. That's like a prayer." — Jonathan Groff [36:18]

Rachel notes the emotional depth of these moments, underscoring the transformative power of live theater.

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10. Reflecting on Memories

Concluding with a "Memory Time Machine" segment, Jonathan attempts to revisit a poignant childhood memory. Although humorous moments ensue due to a mix-up with dates, the essence of cherishing meaningful moments remains clear. He expresses a desire to relive the time spent with his late grandfather, highlighting the enduring impact of family bonds and cherished memories.

Notable Quote:

"I would go back and live in that moment." — Jonathan Groff [41:40]

Rachel and Jonathan share a heartfelt exchange, affirming the importance of such memories in shaping one's identity and life journey.

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Closing Thoughts

Rachel Martin wraps up the episode by celebrating Jonathan's candidness and artistic achievements. She encourages listeners to experience Just in Time on Broadway, praising its emotional resonance and Jonathan's captivating performance. The episode stands as a testament to Jonathan Groff's resilience, authenticity, and unwavering dedication to his craft and personal truth.

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Production Credits

• Produced by: Summer Tomad
• Edited by: Dave Blanchard
• Mastered by: Patrick Murray
• Executive Producer: Yolanda Sangweni
• Theme Music: Ramtin Arablouei

For more episodes and insights, visit WildcardPR.org.

Transcript

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[Rachel Martin]

Hey, everybody. Just a heads up. This episode contains a little bit of cursing. What makes you irrationally defensive?

[Jonathan Groff]

Oh, my God. So many things.

[Rachel Martin]

So many things.

[Jonathan Groff]

When I'm learning something for the first time and it's a new thing, I get irrationally defensive when criticized.

[Rachel Martin]

I'm Rachel Martin, and this is Wild Card, the game where cards control the conversation. Each week, my guest answers questions about their life, Questions pulled from a deck of cards. They're allowed to skip one question and to flip one question back on me. Our guest this week is Broadway superstar Jonathan Groff.

[Jonathan Groff]

At that time in 2006, whether it was spoken or unspoken, coming out was limiting your career as an actor. And so that idea of, like, fame or success or whatever, I said goodbye to that when I came out.

[Rachel Martin]

When I was growing up, my parents talked a lot about purpose. They wanted my siblings and me to find careers that were satisfying. Yes. But really they wanted us to find our purpose, the thing we were put in the world to do. And that's the idea that came into my head when I was thinking about how to introduce Jonathan Groff. Because Jonathan is a mega talent with a long list of Broadway credits, including Spring Awakening and Hamilton. He won a Tony for his role in Merrily We Roll along, and now he's nominated for another Tony for his new musical about singer Bobby Darin called Just in Time. But when I watch Jonathan Groff perform, it is more than just watching a person do what they love. It's watching a person live out their purpose. It's like he could not do anything else if he tried. And watching him on stage doing his very special thing is just a complete joy. I am so happy to welcome Jonathan Groff to Wildcard.

[Jonathan Groff]

I don't know if an intro has ever wanted to make me cry like that before. That was so deep.

[Rachel Martin]

That was not my.

[Jonathan Groff]

Thank you for that.

[Rachel Martin]

It was not my purpose, but I'm glad you appreciated it.

[Jonathan Groff]

That might have been one of your purposes is to give stellar intro. I am like, whoa, that was really profound what you said. Thank you for that. I really appreciate that.

[Rachel Martin]

You're welcome. The interview's over. That's just the experience. I tell you how great you are.

[Jonathan Groff]

That was it.

[Rachel Martin]

Wrap. Okay, are you ready to play the game?

[Jonathan Groff]

Let's effing go.

[Rachel Martin]

I Think that means you're ready, my friend. First three cards. Jonathan Groff. One, two or three? This is the memories round.

[Jonathan Groff]

Two, please.

[Rachel Martin]

Two. Where would you go when you needed to escape as a teenager?

[Jonathan Groff]

Hmm? Okay. I am in my childhood bedroom. I am with, like, this big kind of. Remember those boomboxes?

[Rachel Martin]

Remember? Yes.

[Jonathan Groff]

They say sitting on the. It was like to buy one. Yeah, yeah. My parents got my brother and I each the same giant boombox for our bedrooms one year for Christmas when I was a teenager. And I remember sitting. And it took up the whole. Like, on the dresser with, you know, where all the clothes are. It took up the entire top of it. It, like, blocked half the mirror.

[Rachel Martin]

It's like hanging over the sides.

[Jonathan Groff]

Yeah, exactly. So I would go there and I would put on musicals. So I was a huge musical theater nerd in high school. And when I think about it, now that I'm 40, I wasn't even really like, tapped into. I mean, I knew that I was gay, but it seemed like such a way too scary to even dip my toe when I was in high school. So in my teenage years, I'm feeling things as we all do, and I'm in my childhood bedroom and the first. And I would listen to lots of musicals. I would listen to Britney Spears. I would listen to the soundtrack of the movie Can't Hardly Walk, which I was really obsessed with in high school. But the one, like, the first memory that's coming to me when you asked me this question, where would I go? Is listening to this recording of a Bill Finn musical called A New Brain. And what's notable about it for me personally is that there was a gay romance at the center of that musical. And so that's where I would go to escape and feel romantic and be in love in my childhood bedroom.

[Rachel Martin]

How did you even have an awareness of that musical? I mean, where were you getting it from? Did your parents listen to a lot of this stuff?

[Jonathan Groff]

They didn't. It was sort of. You know, it was still dial up Internet days when that would make that sound. When you would sign on, I was.

[Rachel Martin]

Like, is he vocalizing? No, he's the Internet. That's right. Okay.

[Jonathan Groff]

I was being the Internet. I was playing the role of Internet in 1999. And, like, somehow, I don't know, I was on AOL. I don't even remember what the search engine. It was like, ask Jeeves maybe or I don't know what the search engine was.

[Rachel Martin]

I applied to work at Ask Jeeves. That's a whole other conversation. But I'M just saying. Not so random to me, but, yes, please proceed.

[Jonathan Groff]

Okay, so it was something like that. And I would order CDs off of the Internet, and I was just like. And so the Internet, it was still kind of, like, earlier, like, less accessible than it is now, but it still was existing when I was in high school. And so I would type in about, you know, musicals. And I don't know how I found myself to a new brain, but I did.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. Okay. Three more cards.

[Jonathan Groff]

Okay. This is still memories.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, this is still memories.

[Jonathan Groff]

Okay.

[Rachel Martin]

Sort of sounds like R2D2, by the way, that.

[Jonathan Groff]

Yeah. Could I do number three, please?

[Rachel Martin]

Yes. What have you learned to appreciate about your hometown over time?

[Jonathan Groff]

I love this question because I love my hometown so much. I'm from Lancaster, Pennsylvania, and it's a conservative community. And so, for me, at least, I really wanted to be an actor. So I left home when I was 19 to move to New York to do that. And what was happen? The layer under that was like coming out of the closet and owning my sexual identity and accepting that and moving to New York helped me to help that part of myself come out, literally. And in 2019, I bought a house right near my dad's horse farm. My dad trains and races horses for a living, and. Cause I wanted to spend more time at home. And I have this dream of turning his horse farm into an artist retreat. And so as I've gone back home over the last, like, five or six years, I have learned to be myself and be home at the same time. There's still a lot of dissonance and challenge in that, but it's been great to sort of be able with open arms, to embrace. To answer your question, the physical beauty of the farmland of Pennsylvania because the Amish don't use electricity. And so the way that they till the soil and plant the corn and the tobacco, it's like when I look out the window in the backyard of my house, it's like all Amish farms, and it's like the beautiful, gentle touch of man on the farm. It's these, like, rolling fields that have been cultivated. So there is the touch of man, but there's something extremely natural and beautiful about it as well, which I love. And then I've also, in the fall, got introduced for the first time to the LGBTQ community in Lancaster.

[Rachel Martin]

And now this community feels like there's love. In your homecoming, you feel some degree of love and acceptance by the broad community?

[Jonathan Groff]

Absolutely, yes. Yeah. I mean, I still, you know, I still am close with all of my conservative family members and love them. And to know that there's also thousands of people in Pennsylvania that are, like, full support of the LGBTQ community, It's like, I have two communities now that I get to come home to, which is really awesome.

[Rachel Martin]

That is a lovely thing. I'm so glad.

[Jonathan Groff]

Yeah. Thanks.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay, last one in this round. One, two or three?

[Jonathan Groff]

I gotta go with one. Cause it's the number I haven't chosen yet. Oh.

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, well. What is something your parents taught you to love?

[Jonathan Groff]

Oh, wow. Okay. So the first thing is, like, my mom is a gym teacher, and my dad trains and races horses for a living. And when they were sort of making their way into the world after high school, they, in a very kind of, like, radical way, decided to pursue their passion as opposed to sort of fall in line with what was expected of them. So my dad was the oldest of the brothers of his family. There's four of them. And he was supposed to take over the dairy farm. He grew up Mennonite. My grandfather was a Mennonite preacher, and he was supposed to take over the dairy farm. But he didn't like cows and the work of cows. But he loved animals.

[Rachel Martin]

Professional liability.

[Jonathan Groff]

Yeah, exactly. And he loved horses. And so he ended up taking a kind of left turn and started his own business with the help of his family and became a horse trainer. And that is what put food on the table for my family for the all 18 years that I lived and grew up in Lancaster. And so he ended up making his passion his life. My mom, similarly, will talk about, like, when she was in high school, she was so passionate about sports, which in, like, the late 60s, early 70s in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, it was like, female sports was not a huge deal. And she would wake up at 3:30 in the morning when no one was awake, and go running in secret because she was embarrassed. Because women at that time weren't, like, training like they were years later, at least in lanc.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Groff]

And it was, she always says, like, teacher or nurse or secretary were her options. And so she pursued, like, a physical education track for herself and made it a point to become a field hockey coach because that was what she really wanted to do, which was like, play sports and be involved in that. So they taught me from a young age that pursuing your passion was something worthwhile. And even though they didn't really understand how or why I was interested in the arts, they. They really understood in a very profound way, we're gonna drive him to play practice. We're gonna let him be Mary Poppins when he's three years old because they recognized the passion that I had and really fanned the flame of that.

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[Rachel Martin]

We'Re gonna step back from the game for a minute.

[Jonathan Groff]

Okay.

[Rachel Martin]

And talk about just in Time. I don't know why I'm singing for Jonathan.

[Jonathan Groff]

You could sing. Please sing it. Just in time.

[Rachel Martin]

Just in time. That's not even a song.

[Jonathan Groff]

It is a song. That's the second song I sing of the show. Yeah, I sing that. This could be the start of something big as the very first song. And then I go Just in time I found you just in time before you came My time was running low. Which is Julie Stein, one of my all time favorite songs. A song that I know from Judy Kune's album called Just in Time. Back to the boombox in my bedroom.

[Rachel Martin]

There you go.

[Jonathan Groff]

This was one of the things, One of the CDs I had ordered online as a teenager. And it's a beautiful album. It's her singing all Julie Stein songs.

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, my God. That's a lovely bit of synchronicity.

[Jonathan Groff]

Yes.

[Rachel Martin]

So of all the shows, of all the stories you could have told, of all the shows you could have headlined, why Bobby Darin.

[Jonathan Groff]

Oh, my gosh. So eight years ago this month, May eight years ago, my friend Ted Chapin said, I'm thinking about doing this Night of Bobby Darin. Do you know a lot about him? Cause maybe it would be great. We could center it around you. You could sing a lot of his songs, and we invite other people to sing and whatnot. And I went home that night, and I fell down a Bobby Darin YouTube rabbit hole. I watched him that night, and I. My mind was blown. I just felt an immediate connection to him. There was something really primal about the way he performed music. He had this, like, drive and presence and ferocity and passion that I really connected to. And so we did this night at the Y, and Alex Timbers, incredible visionary director, came on to direct it. And so I asked Alex Timbers if we ever thought this could be a musical somewhere, could we turn a space into a nightclub? And that idea really turned him on. But the other question I had in addition to the nightclub conceit when we started developing it was, could I begin the show as myself? Because I want to try and evoke the spirit of Bobby Darin by connecting with the audience, which he was famous for. And I can become Bobby Darin as the story goes along, and so that it completely works.

[Rachel Martin]

I did not know who Bobby Darin is, and, I mean, Bobby Darin was not who I went to go see the show for, you know, and that will be the case for some people who are coming to see you, Jonathan Groff. And then you serve as this beautiful bridge between, like, yeah, you know me. Trust me. I'm gonna take you into this man's life, and you're gonna be compelled. You're gonna be moved by the story that we're about to tell. It was so good.

[Jonathan Groff]

Oh, I'm so happy you had that experience. That's the dream. That's really the dream. Because he was so magical live. I mean, this is why it also, to me, made so much sense to tell his story as a piece of theater. Because there's something really sacred and special and profound and in the moment about what happens in live theater that feels in line with what Bobby's magic was that he was bringing to the world and why. It makes sense to me that we've forgotten about him a little bit as a culture at large, because his magic was in that live performance.

[Rachel Martin]

And you're just. You're having so much fun. Jonathan, I know you're a good actor, but there's just, like, no way that you're faking the amount of fun that you're having on that stage from the get go, from the jump, you're having so much fun. You are a sweaty mess and there's a lot of spitting. And people who are your long fans know that this is just part of the deal. This is the package of Jonathan Groff. You're a wet man, as you say in the show. But I wonder if it did take a level. Do you have to be at a certain point in your career where you can just be like, I'm owning this. This is what is happening. All of my secretions are here for.

[Jonathan Groff]

This might be the moment that where I'm finally owning it. And our co book writer, Isaac Oliver joined us this summer when we did a big, huge workshop of the show. And he delivered this monologue on the second or third day of rehearsal that was like, I'm just generally extremely, very wet when I do this. And I'm sorry in advance is the line that Isaac wrote for me. And he really cracked that thing of announcing that at the top of the show, which now feels like, you know, I came out of the closet 23 years ago to my friends and family. And now I'm really coming out in a major way as just, this is what you're getting, folks.

[Rachel Martin]

The first thing coming out was, I'm gay. The second one was, I just want wetness.

[Jonathan Groff]

This is just what's happening. And I'm owning it. And I'm not apologizing. Yeah, I do apologize for it, actually. That's why I say I'm sorry in advance. But declaring it. Yeah, stepping into it.

[Rachel Martin]

That's right.

[Jonathan Groff]

Slipping into it. I mean, the irony of there's a song called Splishplash as well. It's like really, this is the moment when you're talking about the parallels.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, right. It's an excellent show and I've been recommending it to everyone going to New York. Congratulations on it.

[Jonathan Groff]

Thank you so much.

[Rachel Martin]

It's really amazing. Okay. You feel like doing more of this?

[Jonathan Groff]

Always.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay, round two. Insights.

[Jonathan Groff]

Okay.

[Rachel Martin]

Insights is the name we've given to this.

[Jonathan Groff]

Here's a. Here's a quick pause question. Yeah, is there a tissue? Because I'm just like working out some phlegm from the back of my. I'm just gonna make a really gross sound which you might want to keep in. Here comes a really loud nose blow.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, I got it.

[Jonathan Groff]

Okay. Okay, see now that's not going to come out, you know, so like later when I'm singing Beyond the sea, now notes are Gonna come out and then that friend is not gonna appear. So thank you for that.

[Rachel Martin]

Exactly. We're helping you. All right, one, two or three?

[Jonathan Groff]

Three, please.

[Rachel Martin]

Three. What makes you irrationally defensive?

[Jonathan Groff]

Oh, my God. So many things.

[Rachel Martin]

So many things.

[Jonathan Groff]

Yes. Okay. What's like the. What's the. Okay, so the first thing that's coming to my mind is so I've learned how to play the piano for. Just in time. So Andrew Resnick, our incredible music supervisor, arranger, music director. I've known him for 10 years, and he will, like. So, you know, when you're doing a show, you get notes from every. Like, from the choreographer, from the director. Even, like, you know, oftentimes you're constantly being made better by other people telling you from the outside what looks good and what looks bad.

[Rachel Martin]

Right.

[Jonathan Groff]

And it's an art to be able to take notes and not, like, become defensive or take it personally. And through decades of acting, saying to myself, they're not coming for me. This is not criticism. They are trying to make the show better. They're trying to make you better. Jonathan, like, chill out. So I've gotten to the point now, by the time I'm 40, where, like, I can. I actually love notes. Like, let's. Yeah, please help me. Give me notes.

[Rachel Martin]

But.

[Jonathan Groff]

But as a piano player, I'm like. I'm like a 7 year old because I've only just started learning in December.

[Rachel Martin]

So you're fragile. Yeah, you're fragile.

[Jonathan Groff]

I'm really fragile. And it's been really hilarious and confronting when Andrew is like, so Jonathan, when you were playing, I'm like, what? When I played what? What. What did I do? Like, what? I know that it's wrong. I know that I played it wrong. Like, I know that it's the wrong thing, but I am so defensive and I get full of rage. And it's like this seven year old version that feels like they're like so good at playing the piano, but they're not. It's like beginner. It's the humility of beginner energy. It's like whenever you. Especially when you get older and you're learning something for the first time, and I feel like I should only speak for myself, not say you. When I'm learning something for the first time and it's a new thing, I get irrationally defensive when criticized. It's hilarious.

[Rachel Martin]

What?

[Jonathan Groff]

I'm so. Well, you know, I'm just like, I have to play cold. You know, like, normally I could, like, practice. And like, I'm like, grav, relax.

[Rachel Martin]

I can Hear my editor, like, thinking out loud. What? Rachel, you want to chime in on it? I'm never. I never get irrationally defensive when you give me notes.

[Jonathan Groff]

Yeah, never.

[Rachel Martin]

Never. I'm feeling defensive about it now.

[Jonathan Groff]

I'm sweating. I'm sweating.

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, my God. I hope it's a good sweat.

[Jonathan Groff]

No, it was a rationally defensive sweat. It's like. That's the sweat from, like, what? Right? Oh, my God. We're all basically six years old. We are.

[Rachel Martin]

We are. Some of us just mask it better than others.

[Jonathan Groff]

Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay. Three more cards. One, two, or three?

[Jonathan Groff]

I'm gonna go with number two.

[Rachel Martin]

Number two. What weight did you have to shoulder before you were ready?

[Jonathan Groff]

I mean, the most. Yeah, the. I'm trying to think if there's, like, the one that. The obvious one that's coming to my head is, like, when I came out of the closet, and the acceptance of that is now. It helps me with every other version of that in my life. Knowing that I was gay from as early as I can remember and compartmentalizing it, putting that aside because it would have made the other people around me, meaning my family, the community I grew up in, feel uncomfortable. So, like, putting that away and I guess, like, shouldering that or holding that, like, dead weight, and then ultimately, like, through sort of, like, moving to New York and experiencing other people that were who they were and watching them thrive and seeing their examples helped me to start to move that from a compartmentalized part of myself out of my. Out of my mouth to really bring the truth to my throat a little bit more. And then falling in love with Gavin Creel, rip, Who just passed last year, and feeling that feeling and going, oh, wow, this is way better than anything. And so this. That was, like, the final kick in the ass that I needed to fully express it and talk about it and release that weight. But then it took another, I would say, probably, like, six or seven years to kind of embrace the parts of me that were still affected or weighed down by the effects of that weight. I'm so, in retrospect, looking back, so grateful that someone didn't, like, rip that truth out of me, that I was surrounded by such loving people. Even when I moved to New York and I was in Spring Awakening with a cast of my peers, and everyone knew probably that Cody, my boyfriend, was not my roommate, which is what I said he was, no one ever really pushed me to declare who I was. It was like they just held me with love and allowed that weight to come to the surface.

[Rachel Martin]

That's so interesting. I assumed that someone who had so much success so young that the answer would have dovetailed into something about, you know, the weight of fame at such an early age, the weight of early success in a life. But I hear you saying that maybe you were able to manage those things because there was this fundamental weight in the not being your full self that you had to experience the releasing of that and coming into your own. And maybe that helped with all the other burdens of young fame and in your young professional life.

[Jonathan Groff]

It's interesting there's something related to it, though, like what you're talking about with fame, because part of why I wasn't coming out when I. Yes, it was the conservative community and the sort of innate homophobia that I had inside of me from growing up, from being born in 1985 and then growing up in Lancaster Penns and all of that. Thank God for will and grace. But why was I not coming out when I moved to New York when I was 19 or during spring Awakening, when I was surrounded by people that loved me? Part of it was at that time in 2006, coming out, whether it was spoken or unspoken, coming out was like limiting your career as an actor. And what happened when I was with Gavin and I came out was I decided to not care anymore about that. What I was feeling with him and how he was living his life and was so inspirational and such a beacon of what could be possible, that the idea of being famous or being in movies or being on television, suddenly that those ambitions became so much smaller when I felt love. And so that idea of, like, fame or success or whatever, I said goodbye to that when I came out.

[Rachel Martin]

Wow. I'm so sorry about Gavin, by the way.

[Jonathan Groff]

Huge, huge loss. But he. It's. It's so. It's such a privilege to be able to talk about him and. And keep his memory and his spirit alive. He was one of a kind.

[Rachel Martin]

And what a gift he gave you in that.

[Jonathan Groff]

Oh, my God.

[Rachel Martin]

Beyond, in that relationship. Yeah.

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[Rachel Martin]

Okay, Jonathan. Okay, last round.

[Jonathan Groff]

Okay. Beliefs, beliefs.

[Rachel Martin]

Three more cards. One, two or three?

[Jonathan Groff]

I'm gonna do three.

[Rachel Martin]

Three. What's a belief you chose to let go of?

[Jonathan Groff]

Hmm. I believe I chose to let go of. I would say, like, from as early as I can remember to When I was 18, I went to church. Like, grew up in the Methodist. Yeah. In the Methodist Church. Even the word belief, the first thing that comes to my mind is religion and, you know, belief and believing. And so growing up religious every Sunday, going to, going to Sunday school, perfect attendance, by the way, all the way through 18.

[Rachel Martin]

Of course you did.

[Jonathan Groff]

And I remember being in, I remember being in Youth for Christ camp when I was in middle school and going like, okay, at this point, I'm knowing that I'm gay at this point I'm getting into theater and now, but I'm still like, at Youth for Christ camp. And I remember we went spelunking. This is the cavern in the caves.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. That's what spelunking is, right? Like in caves.

[Jonathan Groff]

Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay.

[Jonathan Groff]

So this was like kind of an LOL moment of being like, all right, we're in what's called the birthing canal of this one particular cave where it's like dark and you can't see and I'm like shimmying through the birth canal. And the whole thing was like, think of Jesus. Like when you're, when you're like, think of Jesus when you're, if you're nervous. Yeah. And the thought of Jesus was not helping me. So I was like, I think I might not be religious. Like, that was the first, like, that was really the first thing was in that cave. And when I went to see, it.

[Rachel Martin]

Was not giving you comfort.

[Jonathan Groff]

It was not giving you comfort. And when I went to see the incredible revival that's on right now with Floyd Collins, starring the phenomenal Jeremy Jordan, who Is, like, so amazing in the show. And he was going through these caves at the beginning. I was like, oh, no. Oh, no. I was having a lot of PTSD about Youth for Christ Camp. So that was like, the first moment of, like, I think I'm not religious. I think that this. And then we were like. There was, like, performances or something. And I felt like. And this is just my. You know, all due respect to people that are religious. And this is just my own, like, personal journey. So I'm not making a declaration about religion at large. But just for me personally, I was sitting in these events where people were performing and singing, and I felt like, oh, my God, it's all theater. Like, I really was like, this. The way that music is making people cry and the meditative aspect. And so that's really when I, like, theater became my spiritual. My spiritual home. And I let go of that specific Methodist belief.

[Rachel Martin]

I understand what you mean. And theater. Correct me if I'm wrong, if I'm interpreting what you're saying wrong, but you're not implying that it's all fake, necessarily, like a performance, like artifice. But it is. It is performance of emotions. It is the collective experience of feeling something. That ecstatic experience of feeling something together. And that's what theater, the unseen.

[Jonathan Groff]

Like, I go see, as an audience member, I go, like, for example, Floyd Collins. Cause I was just talking about it. They started singing the riddle song at the end of Act 1, I think it is. And I. I burst into tears. I just, like, could not stop crying. And that's belief. I know that these are actors on stage, and I know that, you know, like, this is not real life. I know that I'm not really in the cave. Also, why am I getting Adjutant from watching Jeremy crawl through the cave? But that was the belief. I was like, ah, it's storytelling. It's like. Because the feeling I'm feeling is cathartic, and it's making me feel things. And that I believe in so deeply. And that's the. To me, the power of performance and theater. And that I was like, oh, well, that it sent me from the church into theater.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, I'm never gonna go splunking. I'm the same way. I mean, I'm gonna think of you every time I'm splunking, which is not often, I gotta say. I'm not a big splunker. Okay, last one, Jonathan. One, two or three?

[Jonathan Groff]

One, please.

[Rachel Martin]

Is there anything in your life that feels like praying?

[Jonathan Groff]

Why does that make me so emotional? The show. So the show that I'm doing right.

[Schwab]

Now.

[Jonathan Groff]

Just in time. It's like, like it's spiritual. It's like there's something happening in that theater and there's something happening with this music and there's something, something happening with this company. And I look into the eyes of Michel Pak, who plays the character of Polly, and she sings. That's all. And I feel a. I feel another energy. And there's a kind of like love affair between performer and audience that is in the air in this show. That's like a prayer in that. It's like there's something deeply that feels like about community and about seeing each other and about finding each other's eyes and about expressing joy and love and saying to the audience, trying to give them the time of their lives. And then at the end saying, I love you. That feels like a prayer. Just like a prayer. Your voice can't take me there.

[Rachel Martin]

That was a real emotional pivot for me because I was like on the verge of crying. But I do wanna say one more thing on that because there is a card we have in the deck. It didn't come up today, but it's about strangers and when has a stranger made you feel loved? And I think that's your whole show or that's your whole career is making that int. Tangible connection with a person you have never met, you will most likely never see again. And what a high. What a sacred thing to connect with someone that way and to do it.

[Jonathan Groff]

Every night is, oh my God, it's everything. And that when we were finding with our co book writer Isaac, the end of like what do we want to say? What do we say to them at the very end? What's the last sentence of the whole show? We end with music, of course later on with whenever we're bowing. I love you felt like the only possible thing to end with. And that love is real. And it's like you can get it and you can receive it and you can give it to people that you don't know, but you do know somewhere deep down we all do know each other. It's that all knowing love and like respect for in the context of our theater. Oh my God, you fucking came to this show. Like thank you. It's like such a love you and thank you.

[Rachel Martin]

We end the show the same way every time with a trip in our memory time machine.

[Jonathan Groff]

Okay.

[Rachel Martin]

You pick one moment from your past to relive. It is not a moment you would change anything about. It's just a moment you would like to linger In a little longer.

[Jonathan Groff]

So what memory do I want to linger in? Ooh, this is so great. I'm going to go back to childhood is where I want to go. And I want to go back. Can I change something or I can't change something?

[Rachel Martin]

No, that's the thing.

[Jonathan Groff]

I can't change it.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay, you can't change anything.

[Jonathan Groff]

But I'm going back as myself. So I'm going back. It's sort of like in A Christmas Carol. Like I'm going back in time and I'm not becoming my child self. I'm like, okay. So I would go back to March 25, 1990 was my 10th birthday party. It was a Saturday night and my grandfather Wade died the next day on my 10th birthday.

[Rachel Martin]

Oh my God.

[Jonathan Groff]

And there was a moment that I can remember where we were all the whole family, like my dad's side of the family and my mom's side of the family. We were all sitting around the kitchen table like eating, and he was there. I remember asking him to whistle. I was getting into whistling and he was a really good whistler. And I remember my dad telling me to ask Wade to whistle and him not doing it. He was like. I think he was like, no, I can't do it. Right. And I'd be like, what? And then realizing he was like struggling with his health in that moment, that maybe he couldn't like get enough breath or something. Cause he died the next day. But I would, yeah, I would go back and live in that moment.

[Rachel Martin]

That was lovely. I have my editor in my ear saying that that math doesn't add up for your age. Which is.

[Jonathan Groff]

Oh, I guess it must have been 91 then if that was my 10th.

[Rachel Martin]

1995. Right? Like 1995. If you were born in 1985.

[Jonathan Groff]

Oh my God, this is so mortifying.

[Rachel Martin]

Where this is all gonna go away.

[Jonathan Groff]

This is. No, you can keep this, keep this in. Cause really you're like, thank God he's an actor. If I put the wrong thing in the time machine. Oh my God. Oh my God. If I put that in the time machine, it's like a back to the future. And then I ended up on a Saturday night, the night before my birthday and I'm asleep, right? I'm like six years old, five years old. I'm asleep. Why am I in my childhood bedroom and I'm sleep. I'm looking at my five year old self asleep in a bed. I would have have been so pissed.

[Rachel Martin]

Jonathan Groth, it has been such a pleasure to do this with you. Thank you so much. Congrats on everything. Just In Time is on Broadway right now. Go see it. The Story of Bobby Darin starring the inimitable Jonathan Groff. It has been such a pleasure.

[Jonathan Groff]

Oh same. Thank you so much for having me.

[Rachel Martin]

Thank you. If you like that conversation, go back and check out my episode with Chris Pine. Chris and Jonathan are both known for their leading man energy, but beyond that Disney hero charm, they're both really introspective and refreshingly honest about how they they see themselves. This episode was produced by Summer Tomad and edited by Dave Blanchard. It was mastered by Patrick Murray. Wildcard's executive producer is Yolanda Sangweni and our theme music is by Ramtin Arablouei. You can reach out to [e-mail] we're going to shuffle the deck and be back with more next week. I'll talk to you then.

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