Julianne Nicholson just wants everyone to take a beat

Summary

Wild Card with Rachel Martin: Julianne Nicholson Just Wants Everyone to Take a Beat

In this insightful episode of NPR’s acclaimed podcast Wild Card with Rachel Martin, actress Julianne Nicholson joins host Rachel Martin to navigate life’s profound questions using a unique deck of conversation-controlling cards. Recognized as one of The New York Times’ Top 10 Podcasts of 2024, Wild Card diverges from conventional interview formats, inviting guests to explore unasked questions that delve deep into their personal experiences, fears, and joys. Released on April 10, 2025, this episode features Julianne Nicholson discussing her upbringing, career, personal challenges, and philosophies on life.

Introduction to Julianne Nicholson

Rachel Martin warmly introduces Julianne Nicholson, highlighting her impressive body of work, including her Emmy-winning role in Mare of Easttown and her memorable character Jenny Shaw in Ally McBeal. Martin emphasizes Nicholson’s versatility, noting her seamless transition from dramatic roles to comedic performances. The introduction sets the stage for a candid conversation about Nicholson’s life and experiences.

“[...] after all, it's a show about the end of the world and the survival of human civilization. I am so happy to welcome Julianne Nicholson to Wildcard. Thanks for being here, Julian.”
— Rachel Martin (02:12)

Childhood Memories and Family Life

Nicholson opens up about her early childhood memories, particularly focusing on her upbringing in a rustic cabin in Western Massachusetts after her parents separated. She reminisces about the simplicity and connection to nature that defined her early years.

“Now if I ever smell that cream, I mean, I guess it is also still connected to her, but it takes me back to growing up in this little cabin in the woods... so my mom used to wear it, and I just smell that, and I'm seven years old again.”
— Julianne Nicholson (02:40)

Rachel Martin expresses curiosity about the rustic lifestyle Nicholson describes, prompting Nicholson to elaborate on life without indoor plumbing and the beauty she found in those challenging circumstances.

“In hindsight it's very beautiful. My mom and stepfather, they have a very beautiful lifestyle. One that takes work, but it's very simple and like connected to the earth.”
— Julianne Nicholson (06:03)

Appreciating Beauty in Early Life

When asked about early memories of appreciating beauty, Nicholson shares a poignant story about her first encounter with a drag queen in Provincetown, which left a lasting impression of glamour and beauty despite realizing it was a man in women's attire.

“I thought she was the most beautiful woman I had ever seen. It was like so much glamour and beauty... That’s one of those core memories that I can return to.”
— Julianne Nicholson (06:23)

Balancing Career and Family

Nicholson discusses the challenges of balancing a demanding acting career with her responsibilities as a mother to two teenagers. She recounts a particularly tough period in the previous year when back-to-back roles left her feeling homesick and strained her time with her family.

“The most homesick I felt actually was last year. Having to go back-to-back between shows in Cardiff and then moving to LA for Paradise was really challenging.”
— Julianne Nicholson (08:23)

Rachel Martin acknowledges the difficulty of juggling career ambitions with family life, noting the necessary trade-offs and the importance of modeling perseverance for Nicholson’s children.

“If you have a family and you have a job you love, there are going to be costs and trade-offs... you’re also modeling for your kids, like how to go after what you want.”
— Rachel Martin (09:44)

Personal Insights: Sobriety and Socializing

In the second round of the game, Nicholson reveals her decision to give up alcohol in 2016, discussing the positive impact it has had on her well-being despite the social challenges it presents.

“In 2016, I realized like it was not working for me anymore. So that's been a huge gift. Not always easy, but really good.”
— Julianne Nicholson (16:00)

She candidly shares her struggles with social anxiety, especially in unfamiliar or large gatherings, and how she now navigates these situations with non-alcoholic alternatives and by seeking comfort in familiar faces.

“I usually try to latch on to someone who I know, who's like my little security... And I just give myself a break. I don't have to be good at it.”
— Julianne Nicholson (17:56)

Philosophical Reflections: Mystery vs. Certainty

During the beliefs round, both Nicholson and Martin delve into their preferences for mystery over certainty, exploring how embracing the unknown can lead to a richer, more fulfilling life.

“Most of the choices that I've made in life would show that I believe in mystery and not knowing what's coming next and the beauty in that, in the unknown.”
— Julianne Nicholson (27:05)

Martin reflects on her own evolution from seeking certainty to celebrating mystery, highlighting the joy and acceptance that comes with embracing life’s uncertainties.

“There are certain things that we just can't know... And I don’t need to know the answers in the way that I, when I was younger, really needed to know the answer.”
— Rachel Martin (28:08)

Contemplating Death and Experiencing Awe

When prompted about thoughts on death, Nicholson admits that while it’s not a frequent contemplation, she occasionally reflects on it but prefers to focus on positive aspects of life.

“Never. Like I was just gonna throw never out there. But that's not true. But not often.”
— Julianne Nicholson (29:38)

Discussing moments of awe, Nicholson describes her experience visiting Yosemite and the overwhelming beauty of nature that evokes a profound sense of smallness and freedom.

“When have I experienced awe? The first time we went to Yosemite... I felt like something more than a mountain face. It just felt like an expression of being small in a vast universe.”
— Julianne Nicholson (30:53)

Memory Time Machine: Cherished Moments

In the episode’s closing segment, the memory time machine allows guests to revisit a cherished moment. Nicholson chooses a nostalgic Thanksgiving at her grandparents’ house, highlighting the warmth and love that defined her family gatherings.

“When I was a little kid... it was pure love and food.”
— Julianne Nicholson (32:56)

Conclusion

Julianne Nicholson’s episode on Wild Card offers a heartfelt exploration of her life’s journey, balancing personal growth with professional excellence. Her reflections on family, sobriety, and embracing life’s mysteries provide listeners with profound insights into finding meaning and staying grounded amidst life’s complexities.

For those who enjoyed this episode, Rachel Martin recommends revisiting her conversation with author Taffy Brodesser Achner, another inspiring figure balancing creative passion with personal well-being. Wildcard continues to deliver authentic and enriching conversations, reshaping the landscape of interview podcasts.

Notable Quotes:

• “It doesn't always have to be like flowers and roses and rainbows and it's just like, let's just take each moment and be more chill.”
  — Julianne Nicholson (00:57)

• “Samantha Redmond, AKA Sinatra, who is basically this like tech billionaire who has shoved her way into the Oval Office...”
  — Julianne Nicholson (13:01)

• “The first time I saw a drag queen... she gave me a little wink as I was walking away.”
  — Julianne Nicholson (06:23)

• “Every child deserves to know that disappointment and anger are okay... just take a beat and be more chill.”
  — Julianne Nicholson (23:48)

Episode Contacts and Credits:

• Producer: Romel Wood
• Assistance: Summer Tomad
• Editor: Dave Blanchard
• Mastered by: Patrick Murray
• Executive Producer: Yolanda Sangweni
• Theme Music: Ramtin Arabui
• Contact: [e-mail]

Find more episodes of Wild Card and support NPR by subscribing to Wild Card+ for bonus content and an ad-free experience at plus.npr.org/wildcard.

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This summary captures the essence and key discussions from the episode, providing a comprehensive overview for both fans and new listeners.

Transcript

[NPR Sponsor]

This message comes from Pemco Mutual Insurance Company. Their mission is to help customers worry less and live more. So they're sharing prevention tips that empower you to prevent some of life's pitfalls before they happen. Visit pemco.com prevention do you prefer mystery or certainty?

[Julianne Nicholson]

Ooh, that's a good one. I feel like probably certainty is the thing that is maybe quote unquote better for me, but I feel like most of the choices that I made in life would show that I believe in mystery.

[Rachel Martin]

I'm Rachel Martin, and this is Wildcard, the game where cards control the conversation. Each week, my guest answers questions about their life. Questions pulled from a deck of cards. They're allowed to skip one question and to flip one question back on me. My guest this week is actor Julianne Nicholson.

[Julianne Nicholson]

It doesn't always have to be like flowers and roses and rainbows and it's just like, let's just take each moment and be more chill.

[Rachel Martin]

Julianne Nicholson has been busy breaking our hearts over the last few years. She was totally captivating in the film Janet Planet as a mother dealing with unmet expectations about her life. And she won an Emmy for playing Kate Winslet's best friend in Mare of Easttown. She's so good in these dramatic roles, it's easy to forget that Julianne Nicholson is also funny. If you scroll all the way down to the bottom of her prolific list of credits, you'll see that she had a memorable 13 episode arc as Jenny Shaw on the beloved TV show Ally McBeal. She played this endearingly dorky lawyer and it was there that people first got a look at her chemistry with actor James Marsden, who was equally nerdy and charming on that show. They are now together again in the Hulu series Paradise, where her chemistry with Marsden is electric in a very different way. After all, it's a show about the end of the world and the survival of human civilization. I am so happy to welcome Julianne Nicholson to Wildcard. Thanks for being here, Julian.

[Julianne Nicholson]

Thank you. Thank you so much. How nice. I'm happy to be here.

[Rachel Martin]

I'm very happy to get to talk about paradise, but we're going to start with our game. Okay.

[Julianne Nicholson]

Okay.

[Rachel Martin]

You ready? I'm ready. Okay, let's go. Okay, first three cards. One, Two or three?

[Julianne Nicholson]

I'll do two, please.

[Rachel Martin]

Two. What's a smell that brings back a vivid memory from childhood?

[Julianne Nicholson]

Hmm. Ah, I know one. So when I was growing up, my mom would put would use. I think you can still buy this cream. It's a Cream called Skin Trip. It's like a coconut cream. It was very, like, hippie dippy. We started using it in the 70s, and my mom would put a bottle of that in my. Our stockings. My sister and I in our stockings every year from when we were, like, probably 10 years old. And she still wears it. And so if I. Yeah. And so now if I ever smell that. That cream, I mean, I guess it is also still connected to her, but it's. It. It takes me back to growing up in this, like, little cabin in the woods in western Massachusetts when I was, like, 7, 8, 9, 10 years old. So my mom used to wear it, and I just smell that, and I'm seven years old again.

[Rachel Martin]

That's so funny. My mom wore Jergens original lotion. Do you remember Jergens? I don't even know if that's a thing.

[Julianne Nicholson]

They had, like, a body wash or, like, they had. They had all sorts of.

[Rachel Martin]

Yes, they had a whole line.

[Julianne Nicholson]

Yes.

[Rachel Martin]

But that. The smell of Jergens lotion will immediately transport me back to my mom and, like, her beauty rituals. And there's such. You know, when you're a little girl, especially looking up at your mom getting ready in this very intimate way, it's like we. I don't know. It's like such an intimate intimacy. Yeah, totally. It, like, touches you. You're sensory. I. I want to ask more about the cabin in the woods, because it really. It really was. Right. Like, it was rustic.

[Julianne Nicholson]

It was rustic, yeah. It was a little. We lived. I grew, you know, up until I was seven. I grew up in. Outside of Boston, and then my parents separated, and my mom was single for a while, and then she and my younger sister and I went and moved in with my stepfather, who moved down from Maine and is still my stepfather, into this tiny cabin with no electricity or running water in Western Mass.

[Rachel Martin]

Wow. So I'm sure this is an annoying question, but when you say no indoor plumbing, like, you had an outhouse.

[Julianne Nicholson]

We had an outhouse.

[Rachel Martin]

This is the thing people are consumed with. Where did you go?

[Julianne Nicholson]

To the bathroom, of course. Well, actually, we had. There was a toilet inside, which you. But we didn't. We weren't allowed to use it in the summers. Right. I don't know.

[Rachel Martin]

So you would look forward to certain seasons where you're like, I'm pooping inside.

[Julianne Nicholson]

Exactly. Exactly. Though now I actually have, like, very fond memories of. Even though at the time it was like, oh, damn it. Have to go outside. And it'd be like, snowing. But I have Memories of, well, I mean, like sitting in the outhouse with, like the door open. Cause there was nobody around for, you know, miles and miles with the flashlight sort of shining outside. And it was all like trees and snow and like snow falling through the beam of the flashlight. So like it's actually in hind. It's. In hindsight it's very beautiful. And my mom and stepfather, they have a very beautiful lifestyle. One that takes work, but it's very simple and like connected to the earth. And I find it really moving. And I love to go unplug and be with them.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. Okay, three new cards. One, two or three?

[Julianne Nicholson]

I'll say one.

[Rachel Martin]

One. What's an early memory of appreciating beauty? I mean, you sort of just gave me one on the outhouse, but give me another one.

[Julianne Nicholson]

Okay. You don't hear much about outhouse beauty, but you don't appreciating beauty. God, what a lovely question or idea. We used to go to Provincetown a lot in the 70s and 80s. We would go there the first two weeks after labor Day when the crowds had gone and things were a little cheaper and would go, you know, you could still go in the ocean and all that. And there. My stepfather and mom tell me this story of like the first time I saw a drag queen. And I thought she was the most beautiful woman I had ever seen. And apparently she like engaged with me and gave me a little wink as I was walking away. And it wasn't until we were halfway down the street where my stepfather told me that that was a man dressed as a woman. And I just thought it was. She was so beautiful. So that's the first one thing that just popped into my mind.

[Rachel Martin]

I love it.

[Julianne Nicholson]

I can still remember. I can't remember her face, but I remember the moment like I remember where we were on the street. I remember just looking up and thinking like so much like glamour and beauty and. Yeah, that's sort of still. It's one of those like, as my daughter calls them, core memories that I can return to.

[Rachel Martin]

Do you remember it now? I'm pushing you for more details just because it seems like such a sensory experience. Do you remember the colors?

[Julianne Nicholson]

I remember like, I think she was wearing like dark. She was brown hair and had like lots of makeup on. And I just remembered like dark clothing. Like it all seemed very like chic.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah.

[Julianne Nicholson]

To my seven year old self.

[Rachel Martin]

Yes. Okay, last one in this round. 1, 2 or 3?

[Julianne Nicholson]

3.

[Rachel Martin]

3. When have you felt most home?

[Julianne Nicholson]

So the most homesick I felt actually was last year. Because I did two shows back to back, which I don't normally do. And so I had done a show in Cardiff, Wales, a BBC show called Dope Girls, which I love and I'm very proud of. And so I would go to, and I live in England now and so I would go, I would drive myself home every Friday night so at least I could be home on the weekends. And then I got the opportunity to do paradise right after and I couldn't say no because I loved the show. And you know, you sort of have to, you sort of have to take, there are certain ones that you have to take when they come. Anyway, I basically finished the job in Cardiff. I finished Dope Girls and I think two days later I was on a plane to la. And that was just like intense to be, to have the back to back. Not being home was really challenging.

[Rachel Martin]

How old are your kids or how old were they at that time?

[Julianne Nicholson]

They're 15 and 17, so they were 14 and 16. And you know, everybody's fine and it's not the same as when they're little, of course, but it's still like that's my place. We like belong together. And you know, they still, there's this whole idea of your children don't need you or don't need you as much or want to be with you as much. And that's not been my experience at all. So.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. And I mean it's, it's hard to hold both the things right. Like this feels like a trite, cliche conversation, but if you have a family and you have a job you love, there are going to be costs and trade offs and you know, you're also modeling for your kids, like how to go after what you want.

[Julianne Nicholson]

Totally. It's, it's all good. It just doesn't always feel easy. Like I, I'm so lucky to have both of those things going on.

[NPR Sponsor]

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[Rachel Martin]

Betterment is here to help customers build wealth their way. And we provide powerful technology and complete human support where technology can deliver ease of use and affordability. And the people behind that technology can.

[Julianne Nicholson]

Provide advice and guidance.

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[Rachel Martin]

Guaranteed support for this podcast and the following message come from Dignity Memorial when your celebration of life is prepaid today, your family is protected tomorrow. Planning ahead is truly one of the best gifts you can give your family. For additional information, visit dignitymemorial.com this message comes from BetterHelp.

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[Rachel Martin]

So let's talk a little bit about paradise. We're gonna push back from the game for a couple of minutes.

[Julianne Nicholson]

Okay.

[Rachel Martin]

Congratulations. It is a great show. It is highly entertaining and also epically terrifying. And you're so bad in this. I mean you're so good in it, Julianne. But your character is a little bit of an evil genius. Is that fair to describe her that way?

[Julianne Nicholson]

Yes, yes, very much fair.

[Rachel Martin]

I should just do a little scene setting here. So this paradise is the name of. These are no spoilers, but it's helpful for this conversation. Paradise is the name of this underground city that you, your character has built because there's been an apocalyptic event on the surface of the earth and a few thousand, 25,000 hand picked folks were allowed to keep living underground. And you're the boss of it all.

[Julianne Nicholson]

Yes. I play Samantha Redmond, AKA Sinatra, who is basically this like tech billionaire who has shoved her way into the Oval Office and everything to do with the political well being of paradise of the United States. And then paradise and her son. Her son dies young son. And then basically the rest of her life is like, how can I protect my remaining family? And she goes to, yeah, the end, the end of the earth to do it literally.

[Rachel Martin]

But the writing is great. Like, she's also funny and like snarky.

[Julianne Nicholson]

And I know, I think she's really reverent. It's really fun to have that. It's sometimes, you know, you don't know when you're playing it or saying the words like that that's what's happening. And then you don't. It's not until you see it after the fact that you're like, oh, that is funny. Or that's what people tell you, like how they experience it. And it is so fun to have that because I have to work hard now for what I do that it's not always like grief because also it's like that doesn't come for free to continue to do that. And I'm happy that Sinatra, as evil as she is, like, she's also pretty funny. Like, she's sometimes I feel like in on the joke or, I don't know, just funny.

[Rachel Martin]

And your cast, I mean, it's such a great cast and obviously must have been so fun when you heard that James Marsden was gonna be attached to the project.

[Julianne Nicholson]

I love James Marsden so much. He was so fun to work with when we Both started Ally McBeal in 2001.

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, yeah.

[Julianne Nicholson]

Oh my God. Somebody sent me these clips of the two of us. I am like moon faced. I was like, where's that collagen?

[Rachel Martin]

Like, bring it back.

[NPR Sponsor]

I'm sure.

[Julianne Nicholson]

I'm sure. I used to think I had such a fat face and I'm like, oh my God, if only. And James too. He looks like he's 12, you know. We became fast friends then and actually have not seen each other much in the, you know, in the last 20 years. But life, as you say.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah.

[Julianne Nicholson]

Both of our first scenes together on paradise was with each other. We don't have a ton of stuff to do together, but our first scene was together and in the show too. Our characters have known each other for a long time but are not. And I just found it incredibly moving to be looking across at him in a scene again and just feeling like feeling time and feeling like we're still doing this and like, I love you and here we are doing this thing. So it's felt very special and fun.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. Well, thank you for that. We're going to get back into the game if you feel up for it.

[Julianne Nicholson]

Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

Round two. This is Insights. One. Two or three?

[NPR Sponsor]

Three.

[Rachel Martin]

Three. What's something you've had to give up as you've grown up?

[Julianne Nicholson]

Well, alcohol.

[Rachel Martin]

I just did that six months ago.

[Julianne Nicholson]

Yeah. In 2016, I had to.

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, wow.

[Julianne Nicholson]

I realized like it was not working for me anymore. So that's been a huge gift. Not always easy, but no, but yeah, really good.

[Rachel Martin]

You noticed a difference? I mean, I have like a million questions about this because this is kind of a new. Still a relatively new thing for me. I also realized it was not doing me any favors and had been a real crutch for me for a long time.

[Julianne Nicholson]

Sames.

[Rachel Martin]

But I still find it difficult to socialize.

[Julianne Nicholson]

I know. So I feel like I completely understand. And I feel like at first it was terrifying to feel like I can't believe I have to go in there sober and now it feels like actually I'm not great at social situations. That's okay. Like, when there's a lot of people, I can like, barely even pay attention to what anyone is saying. Especially if I don't know them, I'm fine. And like, if it's a group of friends, like, that's easy. But if I'm in, like at a work event or a school event for my kids and there's too many people and I don't know them well enough and people are talking to me like I'm not. It's not my strong suit. And so do you leave?

[Rachel Martin]

Do you not go to those things?

[Julianne Nicholson]

I don't go. I don't. I mean, I have to for my job, actually. But I usually try to latch on to someone who I know, who's like my like little security. Social Security blanket. Yep. And I just give myself a break. Like, I don't have to be good at it.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. And what do you drink?

[Julianne Nicholson]

Sparkling water.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. Not even drinking like a ginger beer.

[Julianne Nicholson]

Or like, sometimes I like ginger beer with a meal. I like non alcoholic beer.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah.

[Julianne Nicholson]

They're good ones now. So I only. And I only ever want like one of them. And I don't know, some days it's harder than others, but I just feel like that's okay. And I might just tell the person if. Yeah, I mean, it does fill me with anxiety sometimes when I'm talking to people and I'm like, I'm not like, engaging. It's just sort of like pinging off of me. Whatever they're saying. Like, what are you gonna do?

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. I still struggle when people when there's so much excitement about, oh, let's meet for a glass of wine. Or like, you meet a person, they're really into whiskey and I really used to like. And their enthusiasm for the event centered around the alcohol is so acute. And I feel like the buzzkill being like, I'll have your non alcoholic beer.

[Julianne Nicholson]

Probably the longer you have with that, I imagine you'll feel less. I have felt less worried about that.

[Rachel Martin]

Self conscious.

[Julianne Nicholson]

Yeah. And the other person can still do that. And then often when they're in like, you know, two drinks, three drinks in, I'm like, thank God I am clear and I'm gonna feel good tomorrow when I wake up.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah.

[Julianne Nicholson]

So it's like, it's worth it. But that was definitely. I didn't want to have to give that up.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. Thank you for talking to me about that. I appreciated it.

[Julianne Nicholson]

Sure. Good luck.

[Rachel Martin]

Thank you. It still feels very significant Totally. Okay, last one in this round. One, Two or three?

[Julianne Nicholson]

I'll say one.

[Rachel Martin]

What's a lesson you've had to learn over and over again?

[Julianne Nicholson]

Oh, gosh. What's a lesson?

[Rachel Martin]

Take a beat.

[Julianne Nicholson]

Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

You can also flip it.

[Julianne Nicholson]

Okay, good. I'll flip it, then I'll. Give me. It'll give me a minute to think or two while I'm listening.

[Rachel Martin]

I mean, for me, a lot of it goes back to patience because I am not a patient person. And, you know, now I have a regular meditation practice, but it still pops up. Like, there will still be a scenario where I just lose it. And I don't know what I'm in such a rush for. Like, for me to be late to a thing. And if my kids are running late to a thing, it's like. It's existential for me. And I'm back timing everything, like, in order to get to this place on time, these are all the things that need to be accomplished, and we need to start them, like, two hours before we have to arrive.

[Julianne Nicholson]

That's called being a mom.

[Rachel Martin]

So that. Yeah. My lesson is just constantly trying to remind myself that it's fine, that it's fine if we are late to this thing. It is. And, like, just stop.

[Julianne Nicholson]

I can completely relate to that about being late. Do you have. Is that, like, an old thing for you? Like, is that in any way rooted in childhood?

[Rachel Martin]

Parents.

[Julianne Nicholson]

Exactly.

[Rachel Martin]

My dad in particular. Sorry. Rest in peace. I love you so much. Yeah. Yeah.

[Julianne Nicholson]

I'm gonna blame him. I also have a problem with being late. And it fills me, too, with, like. It gets so blown out of proportion.

[Rachel Martin]

Yes.

[Julianne Nicholson]

Where, like, if you look. I remember one time threatening my husband. Like, well, I'm gonna go first, and then I'll meet you there.

[Rachel Martin]

That's right.

[Julianne Nicholson]

It was like an hour and a half drive or something to get to the party. He's like, what? So this is a. This is like a bigger thing, I'm sure. And then I was like. I literally got in the car and started driving down my hill, and I turned around and went home. Because I was like, of course you're right. But on the other hand, it's like, I'm still working on it. Is what we're saying about. Because in. In. In reality, what. So we get to that person's dinner, like, 10 minutes late, but it's more than that, and it's something. So I'm still working on the late thing, too, and not being late, but also not taking it so hard. Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

I'm afraid, because it's in a reflection on me. I'm like, if it were just me alone, I would be there on time.

[Julianne Nicholson]

Same.

[Rachel Martin]

But now, because I'm with you now, I'm gonna be late.

[Julianne Nicholson]

Yes. But it's like. And both can be, right. Like, sure, showing up 10 minutes late. But let's also make an effort to get in the car on time. If every time I'm literally like, dying inside as the clock ticks by and you're just getting out of the shower.

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, my God, so true. And like, the kids are always. We're all. And then I make a big show of it. I'm like, let's all get in the car. So we're all just like sitting there and they're like, why is dad always so late? I'm like, I don't know. Ask him. I don't know.

[Julianne Nicholson]

I don't know.

[Rachel Martin]

Why is your question.

[Julianne Nicholson]

Well, then I find it can also then, like, my daughter's always on time, but it can get catchy where like, oh, I know that I have this amount of, like, it's not. I'm not purely innocent, but I mostly am in this particular case. But it's. Yeah, there's something about the on time thing. I agree that that's like, feels like a big deal and still like, something to be. Something to be looked at and unfair. Basically.

[Rachel Martin]

You and I both need to chill. I think that's what that is. The lesson we keep learning is that we both need to chill, probably.

[Julianne Nicholson]

That's for sure. That is for sure. I've been thinking about that more and more. And like, everything's fine. Like, take a beat, everything's fine.

[Rachel Martin]

You don't have to be things that are worth worrying about.

[Julianne Nicholson]

Yes.

[Rachel Martin]

And being on time to the dinner party is not one.

[Julianne Nicholson]

No. And do you know what else? Like, you know, I've always. I want life for my kids to, like, always be happy and always be, like, bringing. Finding the joy and all those things are important. But my therapist said too, like, do you think. Are you teaching them that that's what life is, that it's just joy because they're gonna be in for a real wake up call. It's like these other feelings can come up of disappointment and anger and someone being mad and someone, like, acting out. It's like not saying all of those things are, you know, to be like, they're okay, but it's like, just take it down a beat. It doesn't always have to be like flowers and roses and rainbows and it's just like, let's just take each moment and be more chill. So, yeah, being more chill.

[Rachel Martin]

Be more chill. See how that goes. I can, like, hear my husband in my head being like, good luck with that.

[Julianne Nicholson]

Mm.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. Yeah.

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[Rachel Martin]

Okay, we're in the last round.

[Julianne Nicholson]

Okay.

[Rachel Martin]

This is the beliefs round.

[Julianne Nicholson]

Ooh.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay. One, two or three?

[Julianne Nicholson]

One.

[Rachel Martin]

Do you prefer mystery or certainty?

[Julianne Nicholson]

Ooh, that's a good one. I feel like probably certainty is the thing that is maybe quote unquote, better for me and where I feel more safe and obviously. Right. Certainty. Sure.

[Rachel Martin]

Certainty makes us feel safe.

[Julianne Nicholson]

Yeah. But I feel like all the most of the choices that I've made in life would show that I believe in mystery and not knowing what's coming next and the beauty in that, in the unknown. There's more room for mystery to happen.

[Rachel Martin]

You don't need answers. You're not a person who. I don't gives big existential answers.

[Julianne Nicholson]

No, I don't think so. Do you?

[Rachel Martin]

I did for a long time. Yeah, I did for a long time. And it's been sort of a recent Evolution for me. That I'm fine not knowing things.

[Julianne Nicholson]

Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

And that doesn't feel like a cop out. It used to feel like a cop.

[Julianne Nicholson]

Out to me.

[Rachel Martin]

Like an intellectual cop out. And I don't feel the same anymore. There are certain things that we just can't know. We can't know what happened before any of this existed, before the world happened. And I think that that's a beautiful thing. And I don't need to know the answ in the way that I, when I was younger, really needed to know the answer. And if I couldn't know, I would just impose one on the system.

[Julianne Nicholson]

Interesting.

[Rachel Martin]

And so I don't feel that anymore either.

[Julianne Nicholson]

I feel even more confident in my answer now. Mystery. Like the more we talk about what. Just more we talk about, expand on what that means and what that looks like. Like more and more. Yeah. I don't. I feel like there's so much I don't know and I'm. And I'm okay with that.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. And not even. I'm like, not even just okay with it. I like celebrate it. And now I'm like, I relish it now and I look for it and I want to identify the mystery of things. I've just gone totally off to another extreme. I'm super happy here in the woo woo of it all.

[Julianne Nicholson]

Great.

[Rachel Martin]

I'm good. Okay. This was more of a question for me than you. All right, fine.

[Julianne Nicholson]

No, I wasn't.

[Rachel Martin]

This is what's happening, Julianne. One, two or three?

[Julianne Nicholson]

Three.

[Rachel Martin]

Three. How often do you think about death?

[Julianne Nicholson]

Never. Like I was just gonna throw never out there. But that's not true. But not often. Not often. I would say no. Every once in a while I'll think about it. And it's just. It's so big of an idea that I just try to like move through it. But yeah, it's not a regular part of my life thinking about that.

[Rachel Martin]

I think that's good because you're doing a show about the end of the world and I think if you were kind of preoccupied in that direction, then that show would like. Woohoo.

[Julianne Nicholson]

I know.

[Rachel Martin]

Send you into a dark place.

[Julianne Nicholson]

Yes, for sure. I know. I mean, I try to generally like, stay away from the things that feel too much, too big, too upsetting. Yeah, it's just like an instinct to like fill my thoughts with something else. Something nicer, easier, gentler.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, I think that's a good way to live. Last three.

[Julianne Nicholson]

One, two or three one.

[Rachel Martin]

When have you experienced awe?

[Julianne Nicholson]

When have I experienced awe? So the first Time we went to Yosemite, my husband and kids and I and we drove through that tunnel and you come out and you see El Capitan Valley. Yeah, I, it, I felt it in the pit of my stomach. I just was like. It was, it was true awe, just natural beauty. Like I don't remember having that particular feeling before of also the sequoias up there as well. Like I find a lot of awe in nature actually. I find awe in like flowers, the delicacy and the intricacy and the colors of like flowers. But I find in nature would be where I. It's probably a pretty common response to nature. But yeah, I also love.

[Rachel Martin]

The flowers are different but oh Capitan for sure. And the redwoods there's. Inherent in the idea of awe is an idea of smallness. Right. Like perspective, I think is kind of the wonderful feeling of feeling small.

[Julianne Nicholson]

Yeah, I agree. That's a beautiful way to look at it. For sure. That's what it felt like. Just felt like something. It felt like more than a mountain face. It just felt like an expression of. Yeah. Being small in a vast universe.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. There's freedom in that.

[Julianne Nicholson]

Really beautiful. Yep.

[Rachel Martin]

We end the show the same way every time and that's with a trip in our memory time machine which is just this. I just do this.

[Julianne Nicholson]

Yes.

[Rachel Martin]

And yeah, exactly. And in the memory time machine you pick one moment from your past. A moment you would not change anything about. It's just a moment you would like to linger in a little longer. What moment do you choose?

[Julianne Nicholson]

I would say I would go back to my grandparents house on a Thanksgiving when all my. My mom's the oldest of 10, my dad's the oldest of seven. Yes. Irish Catholic, Boston families. But I'm thinking right now of my mother's family's house. And when I was a little kid, when I was a kid like you know, 10, 11, 12, and all her brothers and sisters would be there and my grandparents and just it was pure love and food.

[Rachel Martin]

You can see Julian Nicholson in Paradise. It is streaming now on Hulu. Thank you so much.

[Julianne Nicholson]

Thank you.

[Rachel Martin]

If you like this episode with Julianne Nicholson, go back and check out my episode with author Taffy Brodesser Achner. She's another person figuring out how to chase what she loves doing creatively while also balancing a healthy personal life. This episode was produced by Romel Wood with help from Summer Tomad and was edited by Dave Blanchard. It was mastered by Patrick Murray. Wildcard's executive producer is Yolanda Sangweni. Our theme music is by Ramtin Arabui. You can reach out to [e-mail] we'll shuffle the deck and be back with more next week. Talk to you then.

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