Podcast Summary: Wild Card with Rachel Martin – Episode Featuring Kate Bowler
Release Date: January 9, 2025
Guest: Kate Bowler, New York Times bestselling author, Professor at the Divinity School at Duke University, and host of the podcast Everything Happens.
Introduction to Wild Card and Kate Bowler
Rachel Martin opens the episode by distinguishing Wild Card from typical interview podcasts. Instead of following a standard script, Rachel utilizes a special deck of cards to explore life’s profound questions with her guests. This episode features Kate Bowler, renowned for her candid discussions on faith, suffering, and personal growth.
The Concept of Toxic Positivity
Rachel Martin (00:15): "Do you think there's any part of us that lives on after we die?"
Kate Bowler (00:19): "Yes, 100%, absolutely."
The conversation begins with the theme of toxic positivity—a cultural tendency to enforce optimism even in the face of adversity. Rachel introduces Kate's perspective, highlighting Kate's efforts to move beyond superficial positivity to embrace a fuller range of human emotions.
Rachel Martin (03:02):
"So we're going to get to the game in just a minute, but first I want to talk about what I just laid out there. I introduced you with this whole idea of toxic positivity and the things that we try to tell each other to just like, you know, it's all going to be fine...
Kate Bowler (03:29):
"Right. I hear you. That is probably true. I think where I'm really hoping, because American cultural scripts are very limiting... we're supposed to get worse at some things because we're not paying any attention to it and we found something better to focus on." (04:42)
Kate emphasizes the importance of acknowledging and embracing negative emotions alongside positive ones, advocating for a more nuanced understanding of mental health.
Family Traditions and Personal Rituals
Rachel Martin (05:35):
"We’re going to play a game."
Engaging with the Wild Card format, Rachel and Kate draw cards that prompt them to share personal stories and reflections. Kate recounts a poignant family tradition where she and her sisters would clean gutters, reflecting on the work ethic instilled by her father and the emotional weight of mourning lost birds.
Kate Bowler (06:24):
"My dad was too lazy and too determined to teach his little girls a work ethic...
Later, Kate discusses her practical nature, influenced by her Mennonite family, leading her to build a "sauna of despair" as a therapeutic space.
Kate Bowler (07:46):
"I built a barrel sauna in my backyard. My sauna of sadness... It's my favorite place." (07:59)
Early Memories of Appreciating Beauty
Rachel Martin (08:21):
"What’s an early memory of appreciating beauty?"
Kate Bowler (08:26):
"I love Canadian Lakes... You can always hear the distinctiveness at dusk and dawn of the loons..." (08:26)
Kate shares her deep appreciation for the natural beauty of Canadian lakes, highlighting how these serene environments shaped her positive outlook on the world.
Letting Go of Regrets and Measuring Efficiency
The second round of questions delves into personal growth and the struggle with self-imposed standards.
Rachel Martin (11:07):
"What do you wish you could let go of?"
Kate candidly discusses her battle with being an "efficiency monster," a mindset that emerged during her battle with cancer. She reflects on the corrosive nature of measuring every aspect of her life, yearning to embrace unstructured, " wasted" time to foster deeper connections and personal joy.
Kate Bowler (15:36):
"I can't seem to let go of... measuring a day... treating my life like a Ford motor company." (15:36)
Experiences of Loneliness and Authenticity
In a vulnerable moment, Kate recounts an incident where a marketing company accurately portrayed her feelings of loneliness in a presentation, sparking a discussion on the authenticity of personal experiences versus external perceptions.
Kate Bowler (19:12):
"They were so good... 'you are deeply lonely.' It was enormous... But I love being part of all my relationships." (19:12)
Evolving Relationship with Faith and Unanswered Questions
The final round addresses Kate's evolving feelings about God and faith.
Rachel Martin (22:48):
"Do you think there's any part of us that lives on after we die?"
Kate Bowler (23:06):
"I used to think of Christianity as an answer factory... I started to think of it as another prosperity gospel." (23:06)
Kate explores her transition from seeking certainty in faith to embracing love and mystery, acknowledging that faith does not provide clear-cut answers but offers a framework for understanding love and human connection.
Kate Bowler (26:01):
"We can have a great experience of the adventure of feeling like, made for love and released out into a dangerous world with the purpose of loving others." (26:01)
Reflecting on Priceless Memories
The episode concludes with a nostalgic reflection on a cherished memory with her son, highlighting the blend of humor and deep emotional bonds that define her relationships.
Kate Bowler (34:11):
"I have frozen in my mind the look... 'you've got 12 more years of this indentured servitude..." (34:11)
Notable Quotes
-
Kate Bowler (03:29):
"I think we're supposed to get worse at some things because we're not paying any attention to it and we found something better to focus on." -
Kate Bowler (15:36):
"I can't seem to let go of... measuring a day... treating my life like a Ford motor company." -
Kate Bowler (26:01):
"We can have a great experience of the adventure of feeling like, made for love and released out into a dangerous world with the purpose of loving others."
Conclusion
Rachel Martin and Kate Bowler navigate a rich tapestry of personal experiences, philosophical musings, and heartfelt reflections. Through the Wild Card format, listeners gain deep insights into Kate's journey of balancing efficiency with emotional authenticity, evolving faith, and the pursuit of meaningful connections.
For more episodes and insights, subscribe to Wild Card+ and support NPR's mission to bring thoughtful conversations to listeners everywhere.