Marc Maron would still like some validation

Summary

Wild Card with Rachel Martin: Marc Maron Would Still Like Some Validation

Episode Release Date: July 17, 2025

Introduction

In this compelling episode of Wild Card with Rachel Martin, acclaimed podcaster and comedian Marc Maron joins host Rachel Martin to delve deep into his personal journey, creative struggles, and the intricate dynamics of his relationships. Distinguished as one of The New York Times' Top 10 Podcasts of 2024, Wild Card breaks the mold of conventional interview formats by employing a unique deck of cards that prompts guests to explore life's profound questions in unexpected ways.

Section 1: Early Independence and Influences ([00:28] - [08:16])

Maron begins by reflecting on his formative years, sharing memories of his teenage years working at the Posh Bagel restaurant near the University of New Mexico. This job not only afforded him a sense of independence but also immersed him in the vibrant university and stoner culture of Albuquerque in the late '70s.

“...it was kind of the center of the universe. My buddy Ty had a theory that it was actually the center of the universe. He was a smart guy. I don't know if I believed him. Certainly the center of our universe at that time.” ([05:18])

A pivotal figure in Maron's youth was Gus Blaisdell, the owner of Living Batch Books, whom Maron describes as an "inspiration and mentor." Their relationship underscores the importance of meaningful connections in shaping one's artistic and personal growth.

“...he inspired me to be that.” ([03:37])

Maron also touches on his relationship with his father, highlighting both the challenges and adventurous moments, such as navigating a snowstorm while driving at sixteen—a vivid memory that encapsulates his father's complex character.

Section 2: Memorable Road Trips and Family Dynamics ([02:10] - [08:16])

Maron recounts a significant road trip where his father entrusted him with driving through a blizzard, a moment that symbolizes both independence and familial tension.

“...the reason I remember it, we made it, obviously, was that my mom remembers it, you know, out of all the things.” ([06:51])

Contrasting his perception of his father as "erratic" and "mentally unstable," Maron acknowledges the excitement and unpredictability that characterized their relationship, shaping his perspective on life and relationships.

Section 3: Reflecting on Life Phases and Personal Growth ([08:58] - [20:23])

When prompted about periods he daydreams about, Maron differentiates between mere reflection and nostalgic yearning. He emphasizes his continuous assessment of his life without clinging to the past.

“...it's not in a hokey way, in a very real way.” ([11:24])

Maron discusses his journey towards self-discovery, highlighting how stand-up comedy served as a medium for self-ownership amidst tumultuous personal experiences, including toxic relationships and emotional struggles.

“I think emotionally I was. And I think I am emotionally probably a lot younger than I'd like to be.” ([13:29])

Section 4: The Intersection of Podcasting and Stand-Up Comedy ([15:02] - [31:25])

Maron reflects on the concurrent evolution of his podcast, WTF, and his stand-up career. He candidly admits to grappling with the realization that his podcast may have surpassed his stand-up in cultural impact, fostering a sense of external validation he finds difficult to reconcile with his self-perception.

“...there is something about the validation of your peers or some external recognition outside of an audience...” ([28:25])

Despite these challenges, Maron asserts his commitment to stand-up, acknowledging it as the cornerstone of his creative identity even as the podcast garnered significant acclaim.

Section 5: Nemesis and Professional Rivalries ([23:52] - [31:25])

Addressing the question of having a nemesis, Maron openly discusses his longstanding rivalry with Jon Stewart. He attributes this to feelings of jealousy and insecurity, particularly regarding Stewart's dominance in both stand-up and political satire.

“For years, Jon Stewart was my nemesis. I mean, for most of my professional life...” ([24:15])

Maron narrates an anecdote about attempting to reconcile with Stewart via the podcast, only to be met with a frank rejection. This moment underscores the complexities of professional relationships and personal growth.

“He does not particularly like me. I don't think it's a daily thing.” ([27:40])

Section 6: The Search for Validation and External Recognition ([28:25] - [31:25])

Maron delves into his persistent pursuit of external validation, despite recognizing its irrationality. He voices frustration over WTF not receiving a Peabody Award, labeling it a "crime," yet remains pragmatic about the subjective nature of such accolades.

“...there is something about that that is like. I've never won anything really. ... it's a fucking crime.” ([28:32])

He reflects on the dissonance between his internal sense of accomplishment and the external recognition from prestigious institutions, acknowledging the inherent challenges in creative professions.

Section 7: Sacred Spaces and Emotional Connections ([32:56] - [39:58])

Maron shares what he considers sacred spaces, highlighting the original garage where WTF was recorded—a "sacred space" filled with personal artifacts and the emotional weight of countless conversations.

“...it was a museum of me and like I didn't, you know, clean it that much other than vacuum it.” ([33:51])

He poignantly describes the difficulty of letting go of this space, juxtaposed with his new, less intimate living environment. Maron's narrative emphasizes the significance of physical spaces in preserving memories and emotional connections.

Section 8: Grieving and Remembering Loved Ones ([35:30] - [40:33])

Exploring the theme of loss, Maron expresses how he feels connected to lost loved ones through cherished memories and personal mementos. He speaks fondly of Lynn Shelton, his longtime friend and collaborator, illustrating the enduring impact of relationships on his sense of self.

“...when I feel connected. And I also have, like, a few things of hers that are around. So she's always kind of around.” ([37:19])

In the episode's concluding segment, dubbed the "memory time machine," Maron chooses to revisit the moment he first met Lynn Shelton—a defining experience that solidified their profound friendship.

“...it was just like that. That kind of first, you know, thing, you know, nothing could. You know, we just became friends.” ([40:52])

Conclusion

Marc Maron's candid exploration of his life's pivotal moments, creative endeavors, and personal relationships offers listeners a nuanced understanding of the man behind WTF. Through Wild Card's unconventional questioning format, Maron articulates his ongoing quest for self-validation, the complexities of fame, and the enduring power of meaningful connections. This episode not only highlights Maron's vulnerabilities but also celebrates his resilience and unwavering dedication to his craft.

Notable Quotes:

• “...I can honestly say there's never been a better time in my life, and I'm not even sure this one is that great.” ([00:32])
• “The monster I created to protect the child inside me is sometimes hard to manage.” ([13:29])
• “Do you feel on some level that I should be recognized more as a comic. Yeah, I guess.” ([17:18])
• “The conversation is only half the relationship, and the other half, the relationship is unspoken.” ([21:30])

Key Takeaways:

• Self-Discovery Through Art: Maron's journey underscores the therapeutic and self-defining role of comedy and podcasting.
• Complex Relationships: His interactions with mentors, family, and rivals reveal the intricate balance between personal growth and professional dynamics.
• Search for Validation: Maron grapples with external acknowledgment versus intrinsic satisfaction, a common theme among creatives.
• Sacred Spaces and Memories: The importance of physical and emotional spaces in preserving relationships and personal history is poignantly highlighted.
• Enduring Impact of Loved Ones: Memories of departed friends like Lynn Shelton serve as anchor points for Maron's emotional and creative life.

This episode of Wild Card offers a profound glimpse into Marc Maron's multifaceted life, making it an essential listen for fans and newcomers alike seeking depth and authenticity in storytelling.

Transcript

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[Rachel Martin]

Just a heads up. As you might suspect from a guy who hosts a podcast called wtf, this episode has got some strong language. What period of your life do you often daydream about?

[Marc Maron]

I don't. I don't know that I do.

[Rachel Martin]

Is that right?

[Marc Maron]

I think I reflect on things at times. I don't. I wouldn't call it daydreaming. I can honestly say there's never been a better time in my life. And I'm not even sure this one is that great.

[Rachel Martin]

I'm Rachel Martin, and this is Wild Card, the show where cards control the conversation. Each week, my guest answers questions about their life, questions pulled from a deck of cards. They're allowed to skip one question and to flip one back on me. My guest this week is comic Marc Maron.

[Marc Maron]

Do I feel on some level that I should be recognized more as a comic? Yeah, I guess. But I also know that I just know that I'm not everybody's thing.

[Rachel Martin]

Marc Maron projects cynical misanthrope, and maybe that is his baseline. But in my opinion, what's made him so good as a podcaster is his ability to be vulnerable and his capacity for loving other human beings. That's why wtf. Which he recently decided to end. It's why that show became one of the biggest and most beloved podcasts of all time. It's also what sets his comedy apart. He's got a new standup Special out on HBO August 1st. It is called Panicked. And I'm beyond thrilled to welcome Marc Maron to Wildcard. Hello.

[Marc Maron]

Hi.

[Rachel Martin]

Thanks for being here.

[Marc Maron]

Sure.

[Rachel Martin]

Here we go. First round. Memories. First three cards. 1, 2 or 3, 2, 2. Where did you get to feel independent as a kid?

[Marc Maron]

Well, I guess I felt the most independent at this job I had at a restaurant across from the University, a place called the Posh Bagel. It was across from University of New Mexico. So I was like 14, probably 15. Making sandwiches, doing some managing, but it was kind of a groovy place. So I was kind of in the hub of the college scene. And I kind of made the rounds around there and became sort of a fixture of that neighborhood as a teenager and a young teenager. And it kind of made me feel more grown up. It inspired me to want to do art and understand music and books and movies and people, not the Posh bagel.

[Rachel Martin]

But the larger kind of university scene.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, the few blocks. It was like just a few blocks there in Albuquerque, you know, but there was some. I think it was really the place where I sort of came into contact for the first time with, you know, stoner culture. All that stuff that was going on in probably, what was it, the late 70s. And it was kind of the. A lot of it was the template for who I became. I think there was a bookstore down the street that the owner became very important in my life as inspiration and mentor. The great Gus Blaisdell, Living Batch Books.

[Rachel Martin]

Did you just wander in there one day and strike up a conversation with him?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, he was sort of this intense kind of. He was a very smart guy. He taught at the university and he sort of oversaw this little fairly well curated bookstore. And I just wanted to talk to him. And over the years, he would eventually talk to me. I remember it was a big deal when he finally said he'd actually have coffee with me. But he was a very funny guy and a very smart guy and I think he inspired me to be that.

[Rachel Martin]

It's kind of interesting that you felt you had the wherewithal to ask like a grown up, right, like you were just a kid to have coffee.

[Marc Maron]

I don't think I knew I was a kid. I mean, it did take a couple years for Gus to kind of treat me not as an equal, but as a grownup. It was probably not until I, you know, was either back from my first year of college or second year of college. But, you know, I kind of spent a lot of time in that bookstore. But there was also a restaurant right next door on Central in Albuquerque called the Frontier Restaurant, which at the time was this 24 hour, you know, freak show. And it was just this large kind of southwestern themed restaurant. But I think it took. It kind of played the role of a all night diner kind of thing. And during high school we would spend so much time there, like at night because it was open till late. So I'd sit there with friends and we'd just kind of talk and hang out and smoke and, you know, do the thing. So it was all. It was kind of the center of the universe. My buddy Ty had a theory that it was actually the center of the universe. He was a smart guy. I don't know if I believed him. Certainly the center of our universe at that time.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay, thank you for that.

[Marc Maron]

Uh huh.

[Rachel Martin]

Three new cards.

[Marc Maron]

1, 2, 3, 1.

[Rachel Martin]

What's a memorable road trip from when you were a kid?

[Marc Maron]

Well, There was a time my old man was a surgeon, and we used to go. There were these conferences up in usually ski areas. So we'd go as a family, you know, once or twice a year, drive up to these ski areas. We'd drive up in that big Capri station wagon, me and my dad, my mom and my brother. And I remember coming back, there was this mountain pass that was kind of harrowing, and it was. It was snowing. It was a snowstorm. And my dad. In. In New Mexico, you got your driver's license when you were 15. So I couldn't have been much older than that, maybe 16. So coming back down the pass, my dad asked me if I wanted to drive. And it was a snowstorm, and it was. It was kind of a scary drive.

[Rachel Martin]

Because he was over it or he wanted to test you or. What was that about?

[Marc Maron]

I don't know. I think he was just, you know, he just wanted me to step up. I don't know if it was. Test me, but he wanted to give me the opportunity, you know, and you should learn how to drive in that stuff.

[Rachel Martin]

That's true.

[Marc Maron]

And I was. So he let me drive. And I remember at the time, because I was already smoking cigarettes when I was 15, and I couldn't smoke around my family, really. So I had this huge bag of sunflower seeds, and I was just eating them compulsively and spitting out the shells and driving through this blizzard on this mountain pass. And my mother was terrified. My brother was nervous, but my dad was kind of like in a. You can do it. Just go slow. And I'm just eating these sunflower seeds. And the reason I remember it, we made it, obviously, was that my mom remembers it, you know, out of all the things. You know, she's in her 80s, but she remembers, you know, those sunflower seeds and just how terrifying the whole experience was. But I guess that was a pretty important road trip when I was a kid.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. Was that the kind of dad he was? Someone who was pretty good at seeing opportunities to give you and seeing.

[Marc Maron]

No, he definitely wasn't really good at that. He was more of a erratic, slightly emotional and relatively mentally unstable and kind of absent kind of dad. But he was pretty exciting. All those things are pretty exciting. You know, it's interesting to have a dad that, you know, is a bit on the bipolar side. And, you know, you're kind of dealing with mania here and there and, you know, getting into that energy.

[Rachel Martin]

Well, that's what it feels like to me. Like, I've got a Couple of kids, and I would not choose a blizzardy mountain pass as the day that I was gonna, like, test my kid on whether or not they could get us from point A to point B.

[Marc Maron]

That sounds. Roll the dice.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Let's see if he can go for it. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think it was a disciplined decision, but I think he probably got a kick out of it somehow, and I think he genuinely wanted to see if I can do it. I don't think he was necessarily competing with me, but I think in his way, he was trying to teach me something.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. Three more cards. One, Two or three?

[Marc Maron]

All right, three.

[Rachel Martin]

Three. What period of your life do you often daydream about?

[Marc Maron]

I don't know that I do.

[Rachel Martin]

Is that right?

[Marc Maron]

I think I reflect on things at times. I wouldn't call it daydreaming. I think certain things spark memories. And I think that I'm in a perpetual state of kind of assessing periods in my life and who I was in those periods. But I'm not really nostalgic, and I think that daydreaming about a period of one's life would imply nostalgia or some sort of yearning or looking back at a better time. I can honestly say there's never been a better time in my life, and I'm not even sure this one is that great. So occasionally, I think I'm more prone to kind of look at whatever triggers my kind of going back. I'm always fascinated about, who was that guy? How did that guy get through that? So I guess really reflecting on that, you know, like, the period of time when I was a doorman at the Comedy Store, which was very, you know, infused with drugs and insanity. And then there's also times like, you know, when I was in college and with my first girlfriend and that insanity, you know, I tried to have some compassion for that guy, but also, you know, a certain amount of acknowledgement of, you know, bad behavior or being, you know, angry, not really paying attention to the people around me, and a lot of stuff of.

[Rachel Martin]

But how did. What's the through line that you've been able to articulate in how you managed all those different transitions? Whether it was like, the drugs and insanity of the Comedy Store or other.

[Marc Maron]

Really difficult, toxic relationships.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, toxic relationships. Like, what is the personality trait or the tool or the specific person who gave you guidance? What's the thing that continues to be the lifeline for you over all those episodes?

[Marc Maron]

I think my journey has always been about kind of being my full self somehow, or finding myself, but not in a hokey way, in a very real way. I think that because of the nature of my parents emotional sort of manipulation, like I don't want to say manipulation, very self centered people that were not good at parenting and they were. I was just sort of an extension of their worries and needs. So I believe that through most of my life I was not fractured but kind of missing a piece that would have enabled me to be grounded in myself. And because of that, my journey has always been to arrive there. I think that's really why I did stand up. You know, there was a certain amount of fear of the world that I had. And for some reason I think standup put me in a position to own myself. So in all these fraught periods of my life, I was preemptively defensive and hostile and pushing buttons and just trying to kind of keep pushing out there. Sometimes in toxic ways, sometimes in shocking ways, very rarely in compassionate ways. But I think through all that bucking and thrashing, I started to see who I was at the center of all that. And I think emotionally I was. And I think I am emotionally probably a lot younger than I'd like to be. And I think I wrote a line once, I don't know, I think I used it in a special years ago. The monster I created to protect the child inside me is sometimes hard to manage.

[Rachel Martin]

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[Rachel Martin]

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[Rachel Martin]

Let'S take a break from the game. Congrats on your special.

[Marc Maron]

Thank you.

[Rachel Martin]

I mean, it is. You're in one of my favorite places. Because it seems to me you're, like, on the cusp of a new thing, of a new chapter of your life. Like, you're wrapping up WTF after 16 odd years.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

And you got a new special. I mean, you turn out specials. It's not like you haven't done a special in a while, but you're still at a big moment. Right. Does it feel like that to you?

[Marc Maron]

I guess. Big? In what way?

[Rachel Martin]

To stop a thing that you have dedicated so much of your life to in this show. And it's a show that, I mean, you didn't just dedicate your life, it chronicles your life.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

And it would seem to me that by saying goodbye to that and like, reconnecting with, like, you're a stand up, like, let's get back on the stage. Like, let's, let's. Let's get in the mix with an.

[Marc Maron]

Audience that never went away.

[Rachel Martin]

It never went away.

[Marc Maron]

I never stopped, you know, doing standup. It was always the priority in my life. You know, from the beginning of the podcast, I, you know, it was very hard for me to transition into this role of, you know, talking to people and, you know, surrendering stage. And once people started to know me from the podcast, I started to that I was this conversationalist that people listen to twice a week, and I also wanted them to come see the comedy. But the comedy was always the most important thing in terms of what I set out to do and what you.

[Rachel Martin]

Wanted to be valued for.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. The podcast was this other thing that, you know, that I did in a fairly desperate moment time where the standup wasn't working out. You know, like, at the beginning of the podcast, I felt that I was on the other side, if not, you know, fading into obscurity as a standup. So they both sort of coexisted and both sort of elevated. The podcast, I think, is probably bigger than my standup, you know, culturally.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. Is that sort of a hard thing to reckon with?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, sure. I mean, yeah, it is. But I do know as I get older that the standup I'm doing, I know it's the best I've done. You know, the last special, this one too. Yeah. I'm definitely at the top of my game, and I know that. Do I feel on some level That I should be recognized more as a comic. Yeah, I guess. But I also know that. I just know that I'm not everybody's thing, and I know that I do things that guarantee that.

[Rachel Martin]

Did becoming this very, very skilled conversationalist, which involves a lot of listening and not talking, did that change your comedy? Did that help your observational powers?

[Marc Maron]

I think so. I mean, look, in going back to these connections I've been making recently in conversations about who I was growing up and my need to talk to people and my need to engage with people, which has always been there. Like, if you listen to my podcasts, and I've known this for years, if I'm talking to somebody with a strong personality, which is many people, but they have either a way of talking or an accent, that I will appropriate it within five or ten minutes of talking to them. There are many shows, whether I'm talking to, you know, an old Jewish man or an African American person that, you know at some point, my producer is very sensitive to it because sometimes it's subtle, but I will take on their vocal attributes totally.

[Rachel Martin]

I get it. I completely get it. Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

It's an act of generosity. Although it can kind of come off as weird sometimes.

[Marc Maron]

It's not conscious. No. It's not consciously generous. I'm not. I don't think I'm trying to do something. I think that.

[Rachel Martin]

I think you're trying to, like, sympathize with that person. You're trying to, like, make them comfortable. Right.

[Marc Maron]

I don't know if that's true. I think I want to be them. I mean, I'd like to believe that I had the type of boundaries and control that you're implying, but I think that the way they seem to be seems in that moment, or in my mind, to be kind of more interesting than me.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

So. And very early on, you know, I was very. And I still am. I'm an interrupting conversationalist. I do press myself in, and that's out of the same intention that it is about conversation, but it's also about me. So there's this mixture of me wanting to be other people and then me wanting them to see me and then me wanting to connect with them. But very little of it comes from a controlled place. Initially, it was just me. Like, if somebody's talking too long, part of me sort of like, I'm disappearing. Hey, well, let me say something now. I'm going to say some things, but that's a conversation.

[Rachel Martin]

That is a conversation. But I also think you're not Alone in feeling more seen and heard and understood in relationship to another person. I mean, point, totally. I guess there are a handful of people who are like, I am a self contained, happy, functioning unit here. But most of us are happy and find meaning and purpose in relationship to other people. Whether those are long term relationships or whether they're just like a short term, like. I'm gonna talk to you for an hour for this show.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, it's a big part. It's a huge part of my kind of social, spiritual, psychological life. I think that in conversation I've certainly over time become a much more empathetic listener. And I find that I, you know, really emotionally connect and I do feel very close to the person by the end of it. And that's kind of an interesting, you know, heartbreaking part of that whole endeavor is that because of the type of conversations I have with people, it's really. We do get kind of close and then they just go.

[Rachel Martin]

They just live your life. Just walk out of your garage.

[Marc Maron]

That's right. And there's part. There's times where I'm like, I should be friends with that guy. You know, and then you're like, he's a big actor. What are you gonna just call him? You know, so there are very few people that I actually pursued friendships with, but the couple that I did, I definitely. I'm glad I did.

[Rachel Martin]

It's weird though, right? You're like, was this like a summer camp romance or are we for real? Are we gonna be for real friends?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, there is that feeling. It doesn't have quite the foundation of summer camp romance, but. But it does feel very connected and like a real exchange of feelings and thoughts.

[Rachel Martin]

You can grieve that. Are you already preemptively.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, no, I think I am in it now. But there is an elation to it. You know, I think the grieving is, you know, we're ready to stop. There comes a time where, you know, you can either look at what you produce as disposable and just throwing it into the kind of ever churning zeitgeist garbage bin of content. But we never really approached it like that. And the arc of this thing is that we did all right in the end here. And it just becomes a question, why keep doing something just because you can or just because you do? You know, it's never really been. There was no way to make money at the beginning of this. So that was never our intention. Our intention seemed to be not even high minded, just to do a great thing and to do it as well as we could. And you know, so the money came and the attention came and we did okay. And it just, it's okay to stop things. You know, you don't want things to either, you know, fade away or, you know, kind of, you know, become equality becomes dubious or stop because of external.

[Rachel Martin]

Forces that make you like, you can do it on your own terms.

[Marc Maron]

Right.

[Rachel Martin]

Round two, three new cards. One, Two or three?

[Marc Maron]

Three.

[Rachel Martin]

Have you ever had a nemesis?

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, I always have a nemesis. I always have one. Most of that is fueled by resentment, insecurity, jealousy or whatever, but I've always had nemesis for different reasons. But yeah, I always have a nemesis.

[Rachel Martin]

You must find utility in it.

[Marc Maron]

No, it's habit. And it's the never ending sort of struggle against acting out of insecurity or resentment, self acceptance. But for years, Jon Stewart was my nemesis. I mean, for most of my professional life, I always was like, when I was coming up as a comic, he had figured it out. He had. I always used to think it was just cause he committed to a haircut and, you know, a way of presenting. But like he was just everywhere.

[Rachel Martin]

He was a news as satire and that was like a space you wanted to be in.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, and he was a standup, but like. Yeah, but he was just coming up. He was everywhere. He was the king of the thing, you know, politics, satire, whatever. And it was just, you know, I was just. There was a jealousy to it, but you know, but, you know, it got consuming. But it went on a long time and you know, he knew it and we've had confrontations about it and you know, and we are not friends and it was always the case. And yeah, sure, it was jealousy, it was resentment and it was me being kind of, you know, small minded. But it went on a long time.

[Rachel Martin]

Do you find your way to admiring something about him in the end, can you step back from that and look at him objectively and say, no, you're good at that thing. And I do a different thing and.

[Marc Maron]

I do me sometimes, I mean, I think, you know, over the arc of it, the fact that he's kind of like, everybody landed with a podcast, that's satisfying, but.

[Rachel Martin]

But no, been there, but no, done that.

[Marc Maron]

Your friend Marked Merrill helped create it. I'll tell you honestly. And I don't know that. Yeah, why not? So early on in the podcast, a lot of it was built on me kind of trying to make amends with people I thought I had offended or that I had problems with. Mostly people in my community. And there was A point there where, you know, and John and I had been through it, and, you know, there's no relationship there. And, you know, he does not particularly like me. I don't think it's a daily thing. But, you know, I annoyed him to the point where that was reality. But early on in the podcast, I remember. Cause I was recording the Gallagher episode. I was in Portland, Oregon, in a hotel room, and I was like, I should reach out to John because we've got this historical problem, or at least I do, and we could work it out on the air. It'd be great. It's like exactly what I do now. So I reached out to him, and I remember he called me back. I was in a hotel room in Portland. And he goes, hey, it's Jon Stewart. I'm like, hey, man, how you doing? You know, and he's like, I'm fine. What's up? And I said, look, you know, I'm doing this podcast thing, and, you know, I just, you know, there's a lot of people I'm kind of working out things with and kind of making an amends and stuff. And I thought it'd be great if, you know, you and I, you know, did that. And he goes, yeah, I'm not doing that. You know, I'm not. He said, look, you know, it's like, whatever you're doing, you know, there's no love here. And then he said, you know, I'm sure what you're doing is very creative, but, you know, I'm. I'm just. There's just no love here. And I'm like, got it, dude. And, yeah, so I guess it was pretty creative.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. Next three. One, two, three.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, one.

[Rachel Martin]

What do you feel as if you're constantly chasing?

[Marc Maron]

I guess it's some form of external validation, which is ridiculous. But, you know, it's real. You know, I've done a lot of things in a lot of different mediums, and. And I'm, you know, and I've done a good job with a lot of them. You know, I still think I have, you know, but, you know, I talk about this with my producer. It's like, you know, we won. We did great. We helped create something, a medium. We made something singular. You know, my comedy is singular. You know, all this stuff. I get all that. But there is something about the validation of your peers or some external recognition outside of an audience when you work in a creative profession. And it all seems. No matter how much you rationalize it, there are things that I'm still not Hung up on, but disappointed about and a bit angered about it. The fact that WTF never got a Peabody is a fucking crime. It's a fucking crime. So. But whatever. Do you know what I mean? You know, I had a president, a sitting president, come to my garage and that wasn't worthy.

[Rachel Martin]

You know, like, I get it, I get it. You don't want to be attached to those external metrics of success. But it's also hard not to be.

[Marc Maron]

But it's like, it's an external metric of success, but it's an acknowledgment from a supposedly revered institution that recognizes what.

[Rachel Martin]

Institutions aren't in anymore. Marc Maron.

[Marc Maron]

No, no, no. I get all that. I get. It's just a group of people, you know, that one of them could not like me, you know, that, you know, the voters are. Whoever does the voting when it comes to Emmys or whatever. I get all that. But there is something about that that is like. I've never won anything really. You know, we got a big podcasting award, you know, from the governors of Whatever and, you know, in the Library of Congress stuff. There have been little things like that. No, it's a thing. But there are these things that you grow up with that, you know, you kind of want that recognition. And, you know, I've accepted that I'm not the guy that wins anything, and I do believe I did great work in that it's not about. It's not a meritocracy. It's not based on anything, but a group of people who have their own sort of shortcomings, you know, voting their feelings. Yeah, I get it.

[Progressive Insurance]

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[Rachel Martin]

We got one more round. Beliefs 1, 2 or 3?

[Marc Maron]

2.

[Rachel Martin]

What's a place you consider sacred?

[Marc Maron]

Oh, well. Well, certainly that original garage where I did the podcast, that was really a pretty sacred space. It was a very unique space, but I had to let that go. That was kind of hard.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah.

[Marc Maron]

And then moving into the. The new house, which is. That doesn't have the same, you know, kind of organic nature that that place had. Just from all the clutter and everything else, I think that's a. A pretty sacred space. Or it was.

[Rachel Martin]

What did the original Cat Ranch garage look and smell like?

[Marc Maron]

Well, there was just hundreds of old books and pieces of art and bits of tchotchkes and just like just layers and layers of stuff. So I had that smell of kind of like slowly decaying books and, you know, and it had, you know, there was a rug in there that I. It was just like everything that I had amassed in the form of knickknacks and books and things and, you know, random pieces of art from my whole life were kind of in there. And at some point it was like, it was like a museum of me and like I didn't, you know, clean it that much other than vacuum it. So it kind of got that kind of dusty vibe of an old roadside museum. And I had to, at some point, you know, really do a more thorough dusting. Had a musty kind of vibe to it. Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

Also I'm a little.

[Marc Maron]

Woo woo.

[Rachel Martin]

And I feel like in a space, a physical space like that, that has a personality and identity and then you layer upon it all the conversations, the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of conversations.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, yeah. When I.

[Rachel Martin]

When I was energy. That is in that space, in that chair, in that mic. That's heavy. Good stuff.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, Yeah. I remember when I'd vacuum and I'd get all this dust stuff. I'm like, so many skin. Totally, totally, totally.

[Rachel Martin]

I know some people are like, that's so gross. But I'm like, what if there was like President Obama's fingernail in that stuff?

[Marc Maron]

Sure. Or just like they say a lot of dust is like skin. Yeah, yeah, no, I thought about that all the time. Yeah. There's a magic to it.

[Rachel Martin]

Three more cards. One, two or three.

[Marc Maron]

One.

[Rachel Martin]

When do you feel connected to the people you've lost?

[Marc Maron]

Sometimes it's random. With people who are my peers that I have that have died, and there's a lot of them, and so many of them were funny people. I can think about their funniness, their jokes, my experience with them, you know, and then they become alive again pretty quickly with the deeper one. And there's really just one primary one with Lynn Shelton. You know, it's just thinking about this.

[Rachel Martin]

For people who don't know Lynn was your longtime friend, collaborator, and then love.

[Marc Maron]

Big love in life. Yeah. With her, it was just, you know, that feeling of the way she kind of saw me, that, you know, her belief in me and her kind of, you know, almost obsessive, you know, love for me, you know, that when I was in the light of that, I really felt like I was my best self. So if I can think of her just, you know, watching me, you know, do whatever it is I do, you know, that's when I feel connected. And I also have, like, a few things of hers that are around. So she's always kind of around.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. It took me a long time to give away my mom's clothes. I kept them in my closet for probably much longer than. Well, there's still some things in there.

[Marc Maron]

I kept a few things. I kind of distributed a lot of stuff to people that loved her and then her friends kind of took a lot of stuff. But I have a few select items.

[Rachel Martin]

It's funny for. I don't know about you, but the random things that I ended up keeping. I have a butter dish from my mom. So weird. Not a thing I even ever associated her with it. But it's like, there's the obvious stuff that I could have kept, like jewelry or, like, I don't know, a blanket, something. And it's like I look at this butter dish that she gave me that I didn't want because I didn't want a life with butter dishes. But she gave this to me. So it was kind of like a gift with some baggage. And yet there it. And every time I look at the butter dish, I think of her, and. And then I get emotional in a good way.

[Marc Maron]

I've. I have my grandma's melon baller, and that's.

[Rachel Martin]

This is a good grandma thing.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah. And I have. Yeah, I have Lynn's. I have a. One of. You know, she wore a very specific hat, and she had a few of them. I have One of those. I have. I have the shirt that she wore when I met her, and for a while there, maybe a couple years, in the main hallway, when you walk into my house, there's a coat rack, and I had her hat and this leather jacket that she loved hanging and then her red cowboy boots. But it was almost like. It's almost the size of her. So I'd walk in and it'd just be those things which defined her in a lot of ways. Eventually, I had to move it, and I eventually gave the jacket to somebody who loved her and who I thought would really appreciate it. It was kind of a big moment. I gave it to Rosemary DeWitt, who was in one of Lynn's films, and it fit her, you know, and I was like, that's, you know, that should be yours. But, yeah, I have the. You know, I have some pieces of art, and.

[Rachel Martin]

But I will say it's a really powerful thing to be able to feel her. When you feel yourself being whatever, your best version, the self that you are most proud of because of her, and when you feel like you are living the best version of your life is when you feel connected to her. And that is a really special thing that I'm sure that she would feel very proud of having not known her.

[Marc Maron]

Yeah, I hope so.

[Rachel Martin]

Marc Maron. We end the show the same way every time with a trip in our memory time machine. In this memory time machine, you will pick one moment in your past to revisit. It is not a moment you would change anything about. It is just a moment you would like to linger in a little longer. What moment do you choose?

[Marc Maron]

I guess I. I guess I would choose that. That first time that I met Lynn, when she came on the podcast.

[Rachel Martin]

There'S something immediately that you knew. Oh. That you were just drawn to.

[Marc Maron]

Oh, yeah. For sure. Yeah. Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

Did the conversation go on after you stopped the taping? Like, did you linger or.

[Marc Maron]

Sure, yeah, we talked and then. But it was just like, one of those things, like, in my mind, like, I. I had somehow known that it was going to be something special. But. Yeah, and after that, she came and saw me, saw me do comedy. So. Yeah, but it was just that. That kind of first, you know, thing, you know, nothing could. You know, we just became friends. But I knew something. Yeah, it took years to really kind of materialize, but. And it was all a big struggle, and, you know, it was a challenge. But, yeah, it was kind of, you know, that was the good moment. Yeah, there are some bad moments that I'd probably like to linger in too. Just so I know that. Because you know, I got through them.

[Rachel Martin]

Marc Maron, longtime host of the WTF podcast, just got a new comedy special. It is called Panicked. It's out on HBO August 1st. It's been a real pleasure for me to get to do this. Thank you.

[Marc Maron]

Me too. Thank you.

[Rachel Martin]

If you like this conversation, go back and listen to my episode with another curmudgeon with a big open heart, Brett Goldstein. He's best known for playing Roy Kent on Ted Lasso. And like that character, Brett's gruff exterior is just a decoy. You can check that one out on our YouTube page. Just search for Wild Card with Rachel Martin. Today's episode was produced by Lee Hale and edited by Dave Blanchard. It was mastered by Patrick Murray and Robert Rodriguez. Wildcard's executive producer is Yolanda Sangweni and our theme music is by Ramtin Arablouei. You can reach out to [e-mail] we'll shuffle the deck and be back with more next week. Talk to you then.

[Unknown]

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