A (2:12)

This one?

B (2:13)

Yes.

A (2:14)

Okay. What's the riskiest thing you got away with as a teenager?

B (2:20)

Uh, stealing.

A (2:25)

Tell me more. Oh, what'd you steal?

B (2:28)

Well, the first time I stole something, it was Henry's little corner store, and it was going in and grabbing candy.

A (2:36)

Mm.

B (2:36)

Yes. I got away with it at the store, and I stuck it in my pocket, and then I rode my Little bike home. And then my mom and dad found out and drove me right back to Henry's, and I had to apologize.

A (2:52)

You said the first time. So was there you were a repeat offender. There was a lot of theft in your adolescence?

B (3:00)

Well, not really. I think, like, it's just more like small things kids do, like teenagers. Kind of push the needle that way. I remember one time, though, one thing that I did is that my. I think it was a junior in high school, maybe younger, maybe sophomore, and my mom had wrapped up all of the Christmas presents, and I had snuck into the closet, and I had taken a steak knife, and I had. Oh, yeah, I know. Literally, you know, just slit the side. I lifted. I peeked. I knew all my presents. Wait till you hear this. And I was sitting at my house talking to my best friend Jody Bricken at the time, and I was just rever. I was so proud. Oh, Jody, wait. You hear what I got? I got this, and I got the pair of the guest jeans, and I got a tennis racket. Little did I know. My folks overheard me. We had an exchange student that we were hosting that year that was staying with us. They rewrapped my presents, and I watched the exchange student from Australia open up all the presents.

A (4:04)

They gave them to the exchange student. Yeah. That's a devious move by your parents.

B (4:11)

Well, you know, I think one of the beautiful things about it is that when you have to feel the natural consequences of your actions, it is the single best course and behavior correction. Like when you shield somebody from the pain of their decisions, when you shield somebody from the painful consequences that flow from the things that you do, you also rob them of. Of the ability to grow and be better. And so those things kind of taught me, through the pain of the getting caught or the embarrassment and shame that you feel when you have to admit to the things that you did in private, like publicly speaking about the things that you do in private, that has an impact on you. And I think it's an important thing in general.

A (5:08)

Were you a good kid? I mean, what was your relationship to rules?

B (5:11)

I was a really good kid. I really wanted to do well. I was a very positive person. But I was definitely a much more kind of shy person. I think I was. By the end of high school, I really understood this very simple dynamic about life, which is there are people that pick, and there are people standing around waiting to be picked. So if you think about a simple game of tag or foursquare or whatever, and everybody's divided, you'll notice there's always the person that goes first and is like, all right, I'll choose. And then everyone stands around hoping to be chosen. And I started to notice, wow. I could either stand here and hope that somebody picks me and hope I'm not the last person to be picked, or I could just be the first to raise my hand and go, okay, I'll go first. And then all of a sudden, it's like a. It's like a. It's almost like a proactive defensive move. You're really doing something to avoid that feeling that you're not going to be picked, that you're going to be last.

A (6:19)

Yeah, but that still requires a lot of bravery, especially when you're young, to be. I mean, what if you say, I want to be the leader I'm picking, and everyone's just like, no, no.

B (6:27)

Yep. That could be that leadership. That happens. It happens. Let them. Right. I wish I had it back then.

A (6:34)

Right, right, right. Were your parents good at helping you navigate things like that? Did they encourage you to, like, take your power in that way from a young age?

B (6:42)

Well, I just think I saw in them. It's not that it was a direct. This is what you should do. I saw them doing things in their lives that they wanted to do. So, for example, I remember my mom always wanted to open up a kitchen gourmet store. Like, we lived in this small town. This would have been in the early. There was no William Sonoma. There was no fancy anything. And I remember her starting to talk with her best friend. They wanted to open a kitchen store. And I'm sure lots of people were like, well, why? But she wanted to do it. And so they went to the Chicago Gift Show. They ended up, you know, saying, okay, we're gonna do this. And there were two things about the story that I really had a huge impact on me. It was one, watching her say, I'm just gonna go do this thing. And she did it, and she loved it. And she sold flavored coffees when nobody was drinking flavored coffees. And she was selling coffee beans, you know, that were hazelnut and caramel. And she'd come home smelling like it. And it was such a cool thing to watch. But there was this story that I love to tell that has had a huge impression on me. So she and her best friend go to the local bank where my parents were customers and where her best friend and her husband at the time were customers. And they're going in, and they wanted to apply for a $10,000 loan. And so they're sitting there with the people at the little retail bank that they've known for years. All their money, their mortgage is at that bank. And there's Susie and my mother, and they go to fill out the applications, and the banker looks at them and says, this looks fantastic. $10,000 for a new. This is gonna be fantastic. We just need your husbands to co sign the loan. And my mother stood up and walked over to the teller and proceeded to close the accounts because she was a cosigner. And then she walked out of that bank and went to a different bank where they gave her and her friend the loan to them directly.

A (8:42)

Oh, that's bonkers. That's in the 80s.

B (8:44)

Yes. And so it was not the direct thing they said. It was the little things that you notice along the way. Yeah. That people matter. That being kind and interested to people matter. That when you are told, no, find another way. That when you're treated with disrespect, you don't have to allow it. You need to recognize it and also recognize that you have options other than staying there. And so there were just small things like that along the way that, upon reflection, have made a big impression on the way that I go about my life and the way that I think about what's possible in the world and the way to treat people.

A (9:33)

God, isn't that a reminder about. I have children. You have children about. You can say all you want, but it's what you do in your life that your kids notice the most.

B (9:43)

Yeah. You show. You don't tell 1, 2, or 3, 2, 2.

A (9:51)

What's an important life decision you took a really long time to make?

B (9:55)

Oh, I don't think I take a long time to make important decisions. I'm an extremely decisive person and I go on feel. And the reason why I'm very decisive is because I know that almost no decisions are final. And I typically find my way to the right decision by making a decision and then going, oops and going this way and making another decision and then going that way and making another decision. And I tend. And I'm married to a guy. We've been married 29 years. Chris is the exact opposite. And it used to drive me bananas because I would be like, decision, decision, decision, halfway down the road. And Chris is still standing there thinking about what he should do or contemplating it. But one of the reasons why our relationship has worked is that I will make 500 decisions to get here, and he'll contemplate it and slowly move forward and end up in the exact same place. We just have a very different method of getting there. But no, I'm an extremely decisive person.

A (11:03)

I just talked about this the other day with someone. I have a definite action bias. And I err on the side of just making a decision. And sometimes that works out and sometimes that doesn't work out. I mean, does your action bias, your decision bias? Has it ever led you in a direction that maybe was ill advised?

B (11:22)

Oh, lots. Absolutely lots. I mean, everything I think about, like, I mean, I've made so many wrong decisions.

A (11:31)

Yeah.

B (11:32)

And the thing about making a quote, bad decision or the wrong decision is that if you learn something from ends up being okay. The decisions that torture you are the ones where you sit in shame and judgment of yourself. Why did I fall for that person? Why didn't I stop drinking sooner? Why didn't I leave that job? Why did I allow that to happen? If you sit in that, it's a form of self torture. If you look back at the decisions that you made and you give yourself a level of grace and compassion and say, given what I knew at the time, given the circumstances that I was under, given what I thought my choices were, can I see and give myself the grace that I made the best decision that I could at that moment in time?

A (12:38)

Yeah.

B (12:39)

And if you can do that and then you can say, what is it that I have learned that I can now take forward so that I don't keep making a decision to fall for these idiots that I keep dating? What is it that I have learned about drinking a bottle of red wine at night while I'm in perimenopause and waking up in a swimming pool of sweat in my bed? What have I learned that I can actually carry forward to now so that I can make better decisions now? If you can do that, then your whole life becomes a. It becomes something that can make you better. Like I really feel like, you know, that saying everything happens for a reason. I don't think that's true. I think sometimes really terrible things happen. I think life is very unfair. I think there are awful things that happen to you and you don't deserve it. But you can find a reason to move forward.

A (13:59)

Let's step out of the game for a second and let's just dig into.

B (14:03)

Let them.

A (14:04)

Let's talk about the origin story of this idea. Right. I'll summarize the steps and then you fill in the blanks.

B (14:11)

Okay.

A (14:11)

First, I understand there was a 60 second social media post. Like you had this idea, let them. And I'll let you explain that you did a social media post and then you did a podcast episode about it. Yep. And then came the tattoos. We'll let you explain that. And then. And then the book.

B (14:29)

Yes. So

A (14:33)

fill in that story.

B (14:34)

Yes. So, first of all, for anybody that doesn't know what this thing is, it's very, very simple. The let them theory is a modern version of a simple truth about life, which is if you want more freedom and peace and power in your life, stop trying to change other people and learn how to let them be who they are and who they're not. It's really that simple. It's stoicism, it's Buddhism, it's radical acceptance, it's detachment theory, it's the serenity prayer applied as a tool in a moment in history where the world feels like it's spinning off its axis and people are in a state of chronic stress. And the number one cause of your stress is other people because they're really annoying. And they're getting more annoying. Whether it's the slow drivers or the close talkers or the meetings getting scheduled at 6 o' clock on a Friday night, or the headlines or the vitriol that's going on, the things that are very scary, the way that people treat you. Modern life is like a death by a thousand cuts. And the fact is, Rachel, I have been trying to. To be less controlling my entire life. I have been trying to be more stoic. I'm married to a Buddhist, for crying out loud. Do you know how annoying that is, that the man is never rattled by anything? I have tried to let it go, but I can't let anything go because I'm competitive. And when I say I have to let it go, it means I didn't win. It means I had to surrender, and it means somebody else won. And I've got no power. And I didn't like that. And so I have been bumping into and talking about these ideas forever. But it wasn't until these two words, let them hit me in a moment of stress that I really got the power of it. And, you know, here's the truth about life, and this has been true since the beginning of time. If you've ever read Viktor Frankl's seminal work, the Man's Search for Meaning, the entire thesis of the book is, what's happening out there is beyond your control. The only thing you can control, right, is your response to it. We know this. And so when I started talking about this first, the two words, let them, people immediately got it One of the things that's been revelatory about sharing this is the number of teachers, nurses, first responders, EMTs, police officers, people that are writing in that are saying, I have so much stress in my job. People treat me so badly right now. When I say let them, I am able to not give people space in my brain. I am able to protect myself from life that feels like a death by a thousand cuts right now.

A (17:34)

But what do you do, Mel, when someone's saying, these people treat me badly? What are the boundaries of let them? Are you supposed to tolerate abusive behavior?

B (17:46)

Great question. Now comes the second part of the theory, and people don't like this part as much, because when you say, let them, you feel a little, like, separated, more powerful. That's why it works. When you say, let me, this is where you have to take responsibility for what you do next. You know, a big example that I'm seeing from our audience right now is AI People are rightfully, extraordinarily nervous and anxious about the way that AI is impacting jobs. Am I gonna lose my job? Am I gonna be redundant? For people that have learned and start using let them, and let me. Here's the difference. If you're scared right now that you're gonna become redundant, the natural reaction is to freeze and to then gossip with your coworkers, to complain about it to your spouse at night, to worry about it incessantly, to look at it on social media. If you start saying, let them, let them lay me off. Let AI take my job. Let them do what they're gonna do, because I can't control that now. Let me decide how I'm gonna respond if I'm nervous about this. Let me spend my evenings polishing up my resume. Let me take some of the free certifications online, because this is clearly a skill I need to lean into. Let me start networking. Let me ask myself, do I even like what I'm doing right now? And I'm not saying quit. I'm saying instead of sitting there like a sitting duck, gaslighting yourself, telling yourself you have no power. No, no, no, no, no. Wake up and see what you can't control, which is you can't control what's gonna happen, but you can control what you do now, which all the research shows that once you start focusing on the actions you can take, you immediately start to feel better.

A (19:29)

It is so interesting to me that with two words, you were able to crystallize what so many social scientists, psychologists, the theologians, therapists, are also messaging. But sometimes we just need it. We need it simple and we need it repeated, which you're very good at doing, to the point where it becomes like a mantra for people. And to the point where, Mel, people started tattooing it on their bodies.

B (19:57)

Well, you need the reminder so I

A (19:59)

can take you out or.

B (20:00)

No, I actually think it's like, here's the. This is so much bigger than me. This is a modern version of truths that have been around and that have resurfaced at very important moments in time. You know, when we were. We had the unbelievable honor of sitting down with Martin Luther King III and Andrea King for their podcast Legacy. And he looked at me and my daughter Sawyer, who I wrote the book with and said, the let them theory is my daddy's legacy. Because what you're talking about is the power of your response that you are not powerless, Mel. That you have to train yourself to have a response to a world that seems unfair and full of hate. You have to train yourself not to buy into that, but to respond with love, with compassion, with your values. And so one of the things that I feel like a steward of a message, I do not feel like this is a thing that is unique to me. I feel that this is an idea that needed to be released into the world at this exact moment in time. That it is counter messaging to the hate and the darkness and the lies that we see right now.

A (21:28)

Let's get back into the game. This is round two. Insights. First three cards. 1, 2 or 31 1. What's a disappointing experience that now feels like a blessing?

B (21:41)

Oh, I had, for a brief moment, I had a horrible daytime talk show. It was terrible. It had always been a dream. Cause I'd been such a huge fan of daytime talk shows. But in 2019, I launched a talk show. We filmed it over at CBS broadcast Center. Terrible. Like, I learned so much from this. How was it bad?

A (22:03)

I mean, I don't wanna go too

B (22:04)

far down that tangent, but I am somebody that needs to be in control of what I do. And I was talent in somebody else's thing. And it also was a format that was made for daytime television. And so I got stuck in a box. And then you have to chase ratings and you're not in control of what you're measuring. But luckily I got fired and the show was canceled right when Covid hit. And it was a blessing because I learned all these skills and I also learned what I don't want to do. And you know, full circle moment. Last night I was on the Tonight show with Jimmy Fallon. And as I was walking down the hallway to go, and they have you backstage. Steve, who was my stage manager, was Fallon's stage manager. I haven't seen him since 2019. And so I'm backstage, I'm so excited. I've never been on a late night talk show, and I'm nervous. And all of a sudden there's the guy that would stand next to me every day and send me out on set. And as he gave me a little pep talk and we gave a big bear hug and caught up. And then all of a sudden, it was time the band started to play. He turned to me and we looked at each other eye to eye and said in unison, don't fuck it up. And then fist bumped. And he pushed me out. And that was how we. And so it felt like a little angel. And I feel that.

A (23:38)

And that thing didn't work out, but

B (23:40)

it is the biggest. It so worked out because I could be honest with myself that that was not the right thing for me. I could be honest with myself that it was leading somewhere else. And I could take the skills and experiences and trust that I would someday understand how it all fit together.

A (24:06)

That was lovely. Three new cards.

B (24:08)

Number three.

A (24:09)

Two or three.

B (24:09)

Number three.

A (24:10)

She knew immediately, well, has competition done more to help you or.

B (24:15)

Or hurt you? I've really changed my opinion about competition. I used to be a jealous, insecure. Like, I was not the friend you wanted, because I'd had that smile like, oh, I'm so happy for you, I want to kill you. Because you now have the new kitchen that I wanted. But, you know, I thought success, money, relationships, friend groups were in limited supply. I thought if you, Rachel, were winning, it meant I was losing. And I have really changed my opinion about this. And another simple truth about life is you can't be jealous of something you don't want. So if you're jealous of somebody that has a show on npr, if you're jealous of somebody that has reinvented their life after divorce, if you're jealous of somebody who went back to nursing school at the age of 50, pay attention to that. Because jealousy is just. You're blocked desires and ambition, and it's blocked.

A (25:11)

What was the.

B (25:11)

By yourself. What was the thing you were. Oh, I'd be jealous of everything. I was jealous of your kitchen. I'd be jealous of your show. I'd be jealous, like, for example, every. Like, I wanted to start a podcast for probably six years before I did. And every time I saw somebody launching one, I'd be like, oh, there it goes. Jay Shetty.

A (25:29)

There's nothing else to say.

B (25:30)

Nothing else to say. Who's gonna listen to this old broad? Like, okay, now I'm a copycat. This is cringy, okay? And Jay was just launching a show, but I would look from afar and be like, oh, that, you know, asshole. You know, the former monk I'm calling an asshole. And I'm. And who know how you feel about this? Who's the person? I'm the jerk. He's not the. He's just living his life. And the reason I'm jealous is because my ambition is like, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Hey, dummy, wake up. That's something you want to do. I'm now in competition with myself. Can I do better? Can I be a better person? Can I bring better energy? Can I figure out a new process at work that saves everybody more time and makes it more fun?

A (26:15)

I guess I'm wondering if you ever fall. Inevitably you fall short of the own standard, of the standards that you set or the goals that you set to show up in your life.

B (26:27)

Well, it depends on what you're optimizing for if you're trying to get to the top of the charts. That's not what I'm optimizing for. I'm optimizing for can we have more fun doing this? Can we use technology to lift up our creativity? The data that matters to me is what are people saying that the episode that we put out did for them? What are they saying about the change that they made? How is that happening? I'm very proud of the fact that. That in the life cycle of an episode, that more than half the listens will be from people who never listened to this show before for one reason, because somebody shared it with them.

A (27:28)

Round three, Mel Robbins beliefs. Here we go. Three new cards.

B (27:32)

Two.

A (27:33)

One, two or three? Two. Who or what is your moral compass?

B (27:39)

Me. I'm my moral compass.

A (27:44)

That's a lot of confidence. You don't need to. I mean, good for you, but what

B (27:50)

else would it be?

A (27:52)

Oh, I don't know. Lots of people lean on a religion, a faith, tradition, literature.

B (28:02)

No, I have to answer to myself. I have to lay down on the pillow, lay my head on the pillow at night and feel good about how I was and who I was. Today I have to wrestle with my own conscience. I have to decide whether or not I handled something in alignment with my deeply held values or whether I screwed it up and I need to apologize.

A (28:27)

And that has always been thus for you.

B (28:29)

I mean, do you Have a pretty

A (28:32)

clear sense of your own sense of right and wrong and morality?

B (28:35)

No, because I think you develop it over time. And I again, I think you have to be very careful about the measuring stick that you're using. Because it can either be something that is very helpful or it's something that you just bludgeon yourself with. And I spent a lot of my time screwing things up and doing things that I regretted and not knowing how to kind of get out of really toxic. Either behavior cycles or thinking patterns or all of that. And the more that I have learned and the more that I have worked on myself and the more that I've just kind of chipped away at it in terms of just waking up every day and trying to just do a little better and make better decisions and focus on living my life in a way that I'm proud of myself. The less I look outside myself for that reference.

A (29:30)

What was the toxic, ugly stuff?

B (29:34)

Oh God, we don't have enough time for that. Everything. Everything. I literally had raging anxiety, unresolved childhood trauma. I, you know, had a huge problem with drinking. I would cheat on my boyfriends in high school and in college. I had just relentless self hatred. I feel like I squandered my years at Dartmouth because I had undiagnosed ADHD and dyslexia and could not for the life of me focus and study. I was the queen of all nighters. And last, the number of papers I slid under the door as the midnight thing was chiming for turning. I just tortured myself and other people. Cause I didn't know the issues that I was dealing with. I screwed up my kids because I didn't understand that when they got anxious, it made me anxious. And so I would. If they didn't wanna sleep in their bedroom, oh, sleep on the floor. Now what I'm communicating to them is you're not capable of sleeping in your bedroom. You're right to be anxious. So I just make it worse. So I just bumbled everything. And you know, that kind of is the basis for a lot of my approach to how. I am obsessed with trying to figure out simple ways to help myself be better and to help other people bump into the tools and resources that can really help them understand the problem they may be dealing with, understand that they're not alone. And if I had known the information that I know now, I would have done it differently.

A (31:15)

Let me ask you this though, because in your journey from I'm making all these mistakes, I need to correct this toxic behavior. And I'm Summarizing your whole life and then there's a revelation and epiphany around that. And then there's some tools that you develop that help you and other people. Is there room in that paradigm though, when so much of it is about self improvement, looking inside to improve you? Is there room in that worldview to get out of yourself and help someone else? Well, that's to get out of your own head cycle, of course, and like look around and help another person out.

B (31:54)

It's part of the package. It's part of the package and it's not about being self obsessed, it's about really being honest with yourself. One of the really compelling pieces of research that I love comes from Dr. Judith Joseph, who is a principal investigator, runs a massive clinic in Manhattan. She's got a PhD and a professor at NYU and she's a psychiatrist and she just published the first ever study on high functioning depression. This just heaviness that I think everybody feels right now. Her prescription for her patients that she is researching in her lab in Manhattan is small moments of joy. Finding these small anchor points of joy. You know, taking in the sunset, slowing down and having a cup of coffee, sitting down and having lunch at work instead of just working through lunch and constantly doing, doing, doing these small moments of joy. Act almost like a little life raft that lift you up. And when you can lift yourself up a little bit. Yes. Do something for somebody else.

A (33:06)

Yeah.

B (33:07)

Volunteer for hospice. Go and help somebody in your community today. Do something to get out of what you're doing. And recognize that when you help somebody else, when you're front and center next to the neighbor that you think you have nothing in common with, and now you're both volunteering at the Boy Scouts or the Girl Scouts, you actually recognize. Well, wait a minute. Despite the bumper sticker on their car, 80% of the things that really are important in life we really agree on. Yeah.

A (33:48)

One, two or three?

B (33:49)

Three.

A (33:52)

Do you want credit when you've done something morally good?

B (33:54)

No, because I know I did something morally good. And if you're doing it for credit, you're not doing it for the right reason.

A (34:02)

Last one. One, two or three.

B (34:05)

One.

A (34:08)

When do you feel connected to the people you've lost?

B (34:12)

Always outside. Always. Like Whether I'm hiking in the woods or my favorite place in the world is we have this covered porch off the kitchen that you can sit in the satir on deck chair and look straight down the valley 140 miles. And the sky is just so expansive and the mountains are around and the birds are there. And I just feel so connected to the greater forces in life when I just sit in that chair and take in that view.

A (34:49)

Have you had a particular loss that comes to the fore when you're in nature?

B (34:53)

No. I lost somebody very close to us that died by suicide. Probably God. It's 17 years ago, and he's come a couple times to me. But no, I feel the presence of my grandmothers. I feel the presence of people I've never met. I feel connected to the greater forces that you can't explain.

A (35:16)

Have you had an experience with something you would call a divine power?

B (35:23)

I have that almost every day. Yeah, I feel very much. Especially when you think about the astronomical success of this book. I mean, 7 million copies in eight months. It's on track to be the most successful nonfiction book aside from the Bible, and that's not me.

A (35:43)

You think it was divine intervention, Mel Robbins. Is that what you're telling me?

B (35:46)

Oh, I do. This is not me. Like, you'd have to be some sort of sociopath to take credit for this. I mean, there are things that I did. I wrote an absolutely fantastic book. It's hilarious, it's poignant, it's deeply researched. It's true. It is helpful. It brings you closer to the people that you care about. It relieves stress. It empowers you. And there is no way that I could have orchestrated the divine timing of it releasing in a moment as chaotic and as out of control and as overwhelming as the one we're living in right now. Because we all need ways to reduce stress, ways to feel more peaceful, ways to take our power back. And the fact that it's so simple in a world that's so complicated is the beauty of it.

A (36:45)

Mel Robbins. We end the show the same way every time, with a trip in our memory time machine. In the memory time machine, you pick one moment from your past to revisit. It's not a moment you would change one thing about. It's just a moment you'd like to linger in a little longer. What moment do you choose?

B (37:08)

A road trip that my family took when I was in 8th grade where my dad rented a motorhome and we went to a bunch of the national parks in the United States. And every time we turned to the left, all the kitchen cabinets flew open, and so we had to duct tape them closed. And if you were sitting in the bathroom and my dad hit the brakes, the fishing poles that were in the corner would slam up against you. We had two eight track cassette, three eight track cassette tapes we had hooked on classics, Alabama's Greatest Hits and Neil Diamond's Greatest Hits and they played on repeat and my mom and my brother and I sat in the way back and played cribbage and gin rummy the entire time as my dad drove. And so as we went from the corn palace to Mount Rushmore to Yellowstone to and just zigzagged the four corners all over the U.S. it is one of those moments that I will always cherish and remember.

A (38:11)

I love if Neil diamond appears in any memory time machine, you were the first to invoke his name. Please universe, bring me more references to Neil Diamond. Mel Robbins. Her book the Let Them Theory is out now and obviously you can catch her on the Mel Robbins Podcast. Mel, thank you so much for doing this.

B (38:30)

Thank you, Rachel.

A (38:36)

If you liked this episode, check out my conversation with author Brene Brown. Like Mel, Brene is also about owning her mistakes and she uses work as a sort of compass to help herself and others become the best versions of themselves. You can watch that episode with Brene along with this conversation with Mel Robbins or any of our recent conversations on our YouTube channel. Just search for P RWildcard. Today's episode was produced by Summer Tomad and edited by Dave Blanchard. It was mastered by Andy Huether and Jimmy Keighley, while Wildcard's executive producer is Yolanda Sangweni and our theme music is by Ramtin Arablui. You can reach out to us@wildcardpr.org we love it when you do. We're going to shuffle the deck and be back with more next week. Talk to you then.