Mike Birbiglia doesn't think every setup needs a punchline

Summary

Wild Card with Rachel Martin: Mike Birbiglia Doesn't Think Every Setup Needs a Punchline

Released on May 22, 2025

Introduction

In this compelling episode of Wild Card, Rachel Martin engages with acclaimed comedian and storyteller Mike Birbiglia. Distinguished as one of the New York Times' Top 10 Podcasts of 2024, Wild Card deviates from traditional interview formats by prompting guests to confront life’s profound questions through a unique deck of cards. Mike Birbiglia, known for his introspective humor and heartfelt narratives, delves deep into his personal experiences, fears, joys, and philosophies, offering listeners an intimate glimpse into his life and creative process.

Early Ambitions and Personal Achievements

The conversation kicks off with Mike reflecting on his youthful ambitions and how they shaped his journey. At [00:19], Mike shares:

"When I talk to my peers from my 20s, I do think I was a little off-putting in relation to my own ambition. I think everyone who does whatever job they do at a very high level does have in some ways an uncomfortable degree of ambition."

Rachel Martin probes further, leading Mike to recount a pivotal childhood moment at [02:29], where despite being the new kid with no friends, he found pride and solace in winning a local tennis tournament:

"I drove myself back and forth to the tournament, and I won. I won the tournament... it’s crazy."

This anecdote not only highlights Mike’s early determination but also sets the stage for understanding his nuanced relationship with ambition.

Parental Influences and Core Values

Transitioning to familial influences, Rachel asks Mike about the values his parents instilled in him. At [04:31], Mike speaks fondly of his mother's boundless kindness:

"I feel like I’ve not been able to live up to it, but I’ve at least been able to aspire to it. It’s been a certain type of North Star."

He contrasts this with his father's rigor and seriousness, noting how these differing parental traits have shaped his worldview:

"The strongest quality that he carried, that he sort of passed on to me, is a certain type of rigor... something that I've certainly attempted in my own small ways." [07:37]

Rachel resonates with Mike's reflection, sharing her own experiences with her parents' similar traits, thereby reinforcing the universal impact of parental guidance.

Existential Questions and Shifting Beliefs

Delving into deeper existential themes, Rachel prompts Mike about his childhood obsessions with cosmic questions. At [10:00], Mike recounts a significant shift in his belief system during his early teens:

"Around probably 12 or 13, I was like, oh, yeah, I’m not fully buying into that as an idea. And now what? It's just a very extraordinary experience to go through in a certain way..."

This candid admission reveals Mike's early grappling with faith and existence, setting the foundation for his thoughtful comedy that often intertwines personal doubt and philosophical inquiry.

Coming to Terms with Mortality

A particularly poignant segment occurs at [31:35], where Rachel asks Mike if he has made peace with mortality. Reflecting on his comedy special "Old Man in the Pool," Mike articulates his journey towards acceptance:

"I think I do feel like I have come to peace with mortality. Yeah, I do."

He elaborates on how creating the special was a therapeutic process, intertwining humor with his contemplations on life and death:

"I think with the special, it was like, I’m dealing with raising my daughter now, I’m dealing with taking care of my dad... it's completely unresolved, and no one knows which way it'll go."

This segment underscores Mike's ability to blend vulnerability with humor, offering a nuanced perspective on life's impermanence.

Guiding Truths and the Value of Trying

In discussing the truths that guide his life, Mike emphasizes the importance of effort over results. At [35:51], he shares:

"The truth that probably guides my life is that trying is more significant than the results."

He connects this philosophy back to his parents' teachings, highlighting a shift from ambition-driven outcomes to valuing the act of striving itself:

"It matters if you tried."

This reflection signifies Mike's evolved understanding of success and personal integrity, aligning with his broader narrative themes.

Memory Time Machine: Cherished Moments

Concluding the conversation, Rachel invites Mike to revisit a cherished memory. Mike chooses a beautiful moment with his daughter Una [39:09], describing the joy of watching her bodyboard:

"To witness her doing this with her cousins was just so beautiful. And every now and then I witnessed this at different ages that she experiences, but that one really sticks out as just so beautiful."

This tender recollection encapsulates the episode's overarching themes of love, growth, and the fleeting nature of time.

Conclusion

Mike Birbiglia's appearance on Wild Card offers a profound exploration of personal growth, familial influence, and the delicate balance between ambition and kindness. Through heartfelt storytelling and introspective dialogue, Mike presents a multifaceted portrayal of a comedian who uses humor as a vessel for deeper understanding and connection. Rachel Martin skillfully navigates the conversation, allowing listeners to engage with Mike's authentic experiences and philosophical musings. This episode stands as a testament to the power of honest conversation in uncovering the intricate layers of human existence.

Key Quotes with Timestamps

• On Ambition:
  Mike Birbiglia at [00:19]: "When I talk to my peers from my 20s, I do think I was a little off-putting in relation to my own ambition."

• On Parental Kindness:
  Mike Birbiglia at [04:31]: "I feel like I’ve not been able to live up to it, but I’ve at least been able to aspire to it. It’s been a certain type of North Star."

• On Existential Shifts:
  Mike Birbiglia at [10:00]: "Around probably 12 or 13, I was like, oh, yeah, I’m not fully buying into that as an idea."

• On Mortality:
  Mike Birbiglia at [31:35]: "I think I do feel like I have come to peace with mortality. Yeah, I do."

• On Trying vs. Results:
  Mike Birbiglia at [35:51]: "The truth that probably guides my life is that trying is more significant than the results."

• On Cherished Memories:
  Mike Birbiglia at [39:09]: "To witness her doing this with her cousins was just so beautiful."

Final Thoughts

Mike Birbiglia's insightful reflections offer listeners valuable perspectives on navigating life's complexities with humor and heart. His ability to intertwine personal anecdotes with universal truths makes this episode of Wild Card both engaging and enlightening. Whether you're a long-time fan or new to his work, Mike's candid dialogue provides a meaningful exploration of ambition, kindness, love, and acceptance.

Transcript

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[Rachel Martin]

[e-mail] Credit card has ambition ever led you astray?

[Mike Birbiglia]

When hasn't it? When I talk to my peers from my 20s, I do think I was a little off putting in relation to my own ambition. I think everyone who does whatever job they at a very high level does have in some ways an uncomfortable degree of ambition.

[Rachel Martin]

I'm Rachel Martin and this is Wildcard, the game where cards control the conversation. Each week, my guest answers questions about their life. Questions pulled from a deck of cards. They're allowed to skip one question and to flip one question back on me. My guest this week is comedian Mike Birbiglia.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think what you have to learn to do as a grown up and being a grown up starts, I believe around age 35 or 40, is understanding how ambition does not work against being kind.

[Rachel Martin]

So it's not very often that I listen to a middle aged man from Massachusetts who tells jokes for a living. And then I think to myself, that dude gets me. But I actually think Mike Birbigli and I might have been separated at birth. First off, yes, I know there are big differences. I, for example, am from Idaho, he is from New England, he is hilarious. I, I can't even get my kids to laugh at my jokes. But there are a lot of parallels. Mike was raised in a really religious family. So was I. His dad preferred reading books about world wars instead of parenting same. And he hosts a podcast where he asks people point blank really deep questions. I mean, come on. This was meant to be. His new comedy special is called the good life. His 2023 show, the Old man in the Pool was nominated for an Emmy. His one man off Broadway show Sleepwalk with Me was turned into a movie that won all kinds of aw. And I am so happy to welcome Mike Birbiglia to Wildcard. Hi.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh my gosh. Thanks, Rachel.

[Rachel Martin]

You're welcome. I'm so glad you're here. Round one, first set of cards. You pick one, two or three.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Let's do three.

[Rachel Martin]

Three. What was a moment when you felt proud of yourself as a kid?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, my gosh. My mom always brings this up, which is when I was in high school, my parents moved to a new town and in Massachusetts. And I had no friends, literally no friends. And they moved in the summer. And so there's no school even. Right. She was like, I have no friends. And then no school. And my parents went away for a few days for something, maybe something with my siblings or something. And so I entered a tennis tournament, and I trained, and I, Like, I went to the local tennis court, like, leading up to it, for, like, a few weeks. And I hit serves every morning because I'd read that about Pete Sampras, that he does that. Like, he hits 100 serves before practice.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And. And then I drove myself back and forth to the tournament, and I won. I won the tournament. Here's what's bananas about it, is that all of the parents at these tennis tournaments in New England, the parents are so serious. And all the parents were, like, gathered around, and they. Everyone was just like, where are your parents? And I was just like, I don't know. And then, like, I just drove home with this big trophy. I, like, still have to. I mean, it's crazy.

[Rachel Martin]

Like, was anyone there for. You didn't have friends. So your friends weren't there. Your siblings are not in this memory. So they are either with their parents or.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I knew. I knew. Not a single person that, like, what.

[Rachel Martin]

A flex to be the new kid who starts school in the fall being, like, right here. Tennis.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. But I didn't even. Honestly, I didn't even tell anybody because it's such a weird thing to say. Like, hey, I entered this tennis tournament. It's only when you're 46 years old that you can be like, I did win a tennis tournament when I was 16.

[Rachel Martin]

I mean, did you go? Were you good? I mean, you were clearly good.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I was good enough for that. Whatever that was. I was good enough.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay, second set of 3. 1, 2, 3.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Let's go with 1.

[Rachel Martin]

1. What's something your parents taught you to love?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, that's really interesting. I had this line in the Good Life, which is, kids don't know a lot, but they absorb everything, you know? So, like, if you're kind, they know you're kind. If you're selfish, they know you're selfish. I think with my parents, it's like, as I've gotten older, I've realized that my mom is so deeply kind to people in this way that I feel like I've not been able to live up to it, but I've at least been able to aspire to it. It's been a certain type of North Star. And so, like, for example, my mom.

[Rachel Martin]

She.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's an absurd quality. I've never talked about this on stage. I feel like she's willing to be friends with anyone who wants to be friends.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And so she just has this, like, cavalcade of friends. You know, she'll just be like, ellen from swim class said this. And I'm like, who's Ellen from swim class? She's like, I just met her three weeks ago, you know, like, you know, Doris from Stitching said that. Like, who is Doris from Stitching? And, like, she's just. She's an amazing friend to kind of the planet.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. Yeah. My mom was like that. We used to joke. My mom would go to Marie Callender's and she would, like, make best friends with the woman sitting next to her eating, like, the Marie Callender's blueberry pie. And all of a sudden, she knows her entire life story. And sometimes those relationships would continue, and sometimes there were just these little ephemeral, beautiful things that happened to her, and then they evaporated.

[Mike Birbiglia]

But, yeah, it's got Forrest Gump energy. Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, totally, totally.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's like. It's not full Forrest Gump, but it's in the universe of it. Like, my dad would say in kind of a negative way when I was a kid, he would be like, mary Jean, you would talk to a doorknob. You know what I mean? And it would be, like, at her expense. In my mind, I was like, that's pretty good quality.

[Rachel Martin]

How does that. I mean, do you try to emulate that? You said she's like a North Star. I tried to channel that, yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I mean, well, that's my experience of. I mean, I toured the good life to 70 cities in America. And what I have to, like, my experience of being a comedian, over the course of whatever it is, 20, 23 years of being a comedian is I've. I feel like I've gone everywhere. I've gone to, like, 47 states. And I find that the. The thing that you discover about America if you travel through it is you go, people are pretty sweet and they're pretty smart, and they're pretty, like. It's. It's a very. It's. It's a very. I find this to be a very compelling country. So. So many places where you just go, oh, this is. You go to Tulsa and you'll go like, oh, my God, those are the coolest people I've ever met. You know what I mean?

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You go to Boise, you go, those are the coolest people I've ever met. Like, I just find. And I think that a little bit of that is, like, my mom giving to Me this idea of just. Yeah, just talk to anybody.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. What about your dad?

[Mike Birbiglia]

My dad, I feel like, is a little bit the opposite of that. He's a little more that specific thing. I think that my dad. I think that the strongest quality that he carried, that he sort of passed on to me is a certain type of rigor. I think he's a very serious student. I make the joke in the Good Life where I say he was a doctor. In his free time, he got his law degree. And then I go, that's how much he didn't want to be a dad. But. But I think that that rigor that he has and reading war novels and all that is something that I've certainly attempted in my own small ways.

[Rachel Martin]

No, it was the same for me. I mean, my dad was just a lawyer. He wasn't also a doctor. He didn't, like, pick up his MD along the road. But he was a volunteer Presbyterian minister.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's pretty good.

[Rachel Martin]

And so he did. Yeah, he, like, took his.

[Mike Birbiglia]

He's doing double duty there.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. Writing out the sermons on the legal pads.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's a perfect example of our parents being the same people.

[Rachel Martin]

They're the same people. My mom, really. We used to joke. Not the doorknob, but we used to joke we could give her a stick for Christmas and she'd, like, go on and on. This is the most amazing stick. We did it to, like, be snarky and mean about it, but it was also. She just was. She just appreciated things. And she was also. She was an artist. She could, like, look at a stick and genuinely think it looked, like, amazing.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Be like, sure, mom.

[Rachel Martin]

Practicing appreciation.

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Next.

[Rachel Martin]

1, 1, 2, or 3.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Let's do one.

[Rachel Martin]

Were you obsessed with a particular cosmic question as a kid?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Cosmic question? You mean just having to do with the cosmos?

[Rachel Martin]

You can interpret it however you want. You can interpret it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Existence.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. Existential.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think, like, I think for me, it was a real inflection point that occurred when I was probably 12 or 13 years old in my life, where my whole childhood, I was an altar boy and I was religious, and I would go to church and I had rosary beads, and everything was through the lens of that me and God were together, and we were just sort of figuring this out together. And around probably 12 or 13, I was like, oh, yeah, I'm not fully buying into that as an idea. And now what? It's just a very extraordinary experience to go through in a certain way, thinking that everything is through the lens of a monotheistic God to going, oh, Maybe nothing, maybe nothing is anything. And that is, I feel like that was my, my, my shift.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Of my cosmic thinking as a child.

[Rachel Martin]

Did that create any grief in you as 12 year old Mike Birbiglia or. It was just very plain, very matter of fact.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I felt, I think I felt a bit adrift. I think it was, I felt, I felt matter of fact. But I also felt like I'm not sure who my friends are or if I have any friends. You know what I mean? I think it's an odd moment that a lot of people have and some people never have, but, but it is that some people have. Where you go, your whole life is based in a religion which is a type of cult. In fair, I do a run on cults that in the special that I point out the pros and cons of cults. But you know, it is a certain type of a very popular cult.

[Rachel Martin]

Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And, and I, there was a certain point where I was like, yeah, I'm not quite buying into the tenets of the cult. I believe in a lot of them, you know, in a purely like, you know, I think Jesus is a, you know, if true, what's in the New Testament.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Fantastic, fantastic. So many great qualities. But the, but the kind of like the, the, the, the church, the larger institutional things were a little more suspect in my mind.

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[Rachel Martin]

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[Rachel Martin]

I want to pull back and talk about your special congratulations.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, thanks.

[Rachel Martin]

Do you just start out with a thing, a particular story that you feel like you want to tell and that you could make an hour's worth out of material over, or do you just like get this internal, it's time, I gotta get back out there. Or you're just.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think it's audience. I think part of it is based on obsession. So like what? Like I talk about this on my podcast, Working it out. I have comedians on every week and we talk about our jokes and we kind of quote unquote, work out jokes in real time. And I always, when people ask like, where do you start? I always say like obsession with something, like whatever it is. So with this one, for example, it was an obsession with like my daughter was turning at the time, 8 years old, and I was, it was hitting that point where I was going, oh, I don't. She has a lot of questions and I actually don't know the answers to this level of questions. That's right. Like, I like, it was so many things where I was just going, wow, I'm going to have to explain drugs and sex and, and to what? We're just talking about religion and existence and all these life and death and all these things. And I started talking about that for like a year on stage. Like the first half of my tour was just me talking about how I can't explain anything to my daughter, how pathetic that is and how, or how inadequate I feel as a parent. And then about a year ago, my dad had a stroke. It was devastating. It was acute stroke. And he was in the hospital for months and he was in rehab for months and now he's home with, with care. And it's, it's hard. It's really, really hard. And, and so I started talking about a year ago about how I had to explain that to my daughter. And I started to explore this idea of like, okay, well what has my father taught me? And then what am I teaching my daughter? And it became about that. And that's where the title the Good Life came from. Because there was like a smoke shop in our neighborhood called the Good Life. And Una looks up and she goes, dad, what's the Good Life? And I was like, oh my God, that's just like such a, that's such a multi pronged question.

[Rachel Martin]

So your comedy people who love you and love your comedy, know that you're a storyteller at heart. And it seems to me that you are about way more than the funny, because you will sit in a. In a story that has a moment of sincerity and earnestness, and there is no punchline. And you just.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's true.

[Rachel Martin]

Sit there. And I wonder if that took you. If it took you a while to earn the confidence of your audience to do that. You know what I mean?

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think that's part of it. I think, like, you know, part of its pressure from my collaborators. So, for example, like, Ira Glass from Miss American Life is a. Is a store consultant on this one.

[Rachel Martin]

I've heard of him.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, yeah. His name's getting out there. And there's Seth Barish, my director, who's directed all of my solo shows on and off Broadway. And they're definitely. They put the screws to me if there isn't enough true pathos or revelation in the show. So, like, literally, I sent the audio to Ira, like, nine months ago, and he goes. He goes. It's really funny. But, like, if. If you were able to just level with the audience a few times with how you really feel and not have there be a punchline, I think it would be. Would be more effective. And then I kind of found those moments over. Over the tour in the last nine months.

[Rachel Martin]

There's a beautiful one where you're describing a moment with your dad, who by now we understand to be a person who doesn' really give a lot of physical affection. And I can't remember who is stroking whose arm. Was it you stroking?

[Mike Birbiglia]

I was stroking his arm.

[Rachel Martin]

He was stroking his arm. And I. And it's just. It's such a lovely thing, and it's perfect in the context of the story that you're telling. But also, how do you know how long to sit there? Like, do you find that your audience is uncomfortable in that moment and you need to turn to a joke pretty quick after that?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Or.

[Rachel Martin]

Or how do you measure that in your body? Like, oh, this is now long enough. Everyone's starting to get sad. I'm gonna flip it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

A lot of it is trial and error. A lot of it is, like. Is, I guess, like, building up the courage to do something that has no laughs in it. And this is probably. We're referencing probably, like, maybe three or four moments during the show.

[Rachel Martin]

Right. It's very funny. It is mainly hilarious.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, it's primarily jokes. But then, yeah, there's about three or four moments, including the stroking my dad's shoulder. And, and yeah, a lot of that's trial and error and like, you know, is. Is there a feeling in the audience and sometimes literally like, I'll be on tour and there is like a sense of like. Or there's an audible kind of like gasp.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

At those moments. And then when that happens, it's like you go, oh, yeah, I'm really, I'm really. There's something here that people to your point earlier of you're just like, oh, how, how is this, how am I thinking that this middle aged guy's story is my story? And it's like, that's the goal of the whole thing. The goal of the whole thing is that literally everyone in the audience, age 13 to 113 feels like, oh, yeah, this is my story. And that's, that's my favorite thing. My favorite thing is when I look out in the audience and no one looks like me. You know what I mean? Like, that, that's so satisfying.

[Rachel Martin]

Does that happen a lot?

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's never happened. I'm waiting. I'm waiting. This is a hypothetical scenario. It's like 3,000 people who look exactly like me. 3,000 Mike Birbiglia clones in the audience and a handful of iron hands for good measure.

[Rachel Martin]

You are handsome. And so are you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You look great. Everybody's looking good tonight. No exceptions. No, but you do have, you know, because I've been on this American Life over the years, so. You do. I do get my share of like hourglass clones in the aud. Hilarious.

[Rachel Martin]

No, it's a whole look. I know it's a whole.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's a whole look.

[Rachel Martin]

He started it all.

[Mike Birbiglia]

He started it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay, round two. Three more cards.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Number two.

[Rachel Martin]

Number two is what you want. Okay?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yep.

[Rachel Martin]

What failure. Do you still think about.

[Mike Birbiglia]

A specific failure in my life?

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Because I think, like, I, like, like I'll give you an example of one that's really vulnerable and I feel like I will write about someday, but I, I haven't yet. Which is like, when I was a kid, probably around 9th grade, I was very much bullied and I was, I got punched a lot. I was in all boys Catholic school. It was really, really tough for me. Not for everybody. For me it was very tough. And. And then I switched schools and then there was cases where people would bully. Like, I remember another kid, I won't say his name, where kids were bullying that kid, holding him down, slapping him, whatever, that. It was kind of a hazing kind of energy. And I feel like I was a part of that. And I feel like that is not something that my, my adult self would do, but I think that my, my 15 year old self would. And I think that that's a hard lesson. I feel like you never, I think one never fully lives that down.

[Rachel Martin]

Hmm, that's such an interesting answer actually, because I feel like when this question has come up with other people, I think most people lean into like the professional world and this didn't work out for me and this. And it's very interesting that you went to like what you would consider. Tell me if I'm wrong, but what you're characterizing is like a moral shortcoming when you were younger. I think that's accurate, that now you would have handled that differently.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I'd like to think so, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And it's the thing that recurs in my mind and even it's the thing that like when I'm, I'm. That's why I was pausing to even share it because I'm in my mind doing the calculation of the listeners. How much will they judge me? How much can they take? Yeah, but how much is in the comments section of people saying, well, you're a jerk because blah, blah, blah. And I, and I'm not there to say, no, no, I'm telling you.

[Rachel Martin]

But also you were 15, it's not like this happened like 40 birthday party.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, it's true, it's true. But I will say, like, I think that, that it actually ties into my comedy quite a bit because I do think the most interesting comedy is when people are willing to, to talk about things they've done wrong. But I think that in this moment where there's, there is sometimes a little bit of holier than thou energy culturally that people feel very comfortable expressing and I think am able in my shows to say, like, it's almost become a catchphrase in my show. Like I'll say like if the audience gasps, I'll be like, I know I'm in the future also. You know what I mean? Like I'll call out like that. I'm aware that I'm the person who's wrong in this story. Yeah. But when the audience isn't there in real time and it's just the Internet, it just sort of flies out there and, and it's kind of for anyone else's consumption and however people wish to take it apart.

[Rachel Martin]

Three more cards. One, two or three.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Let's try three.

[Rachel Martin]

Has ambition ever led you astray?

[Mike Birbiglia]

When hasn't it? No, it's wild. The ambition Thing is certainly ever present in my life. In my 20s, when I started doing comedy, I just thought I have to succeed immediately. Like, I had no, there was no Runway for success. It was just my parents don't want me to be a comedian, so I have to be a comedian immediately or else they're just going to disown me. So I think that, you know, when I talk to my peers from my 20s, I do think I was, I was a little off putting in relation to my own ambition.

[Rachel Martin]

Huh.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Just being unbridled, I think. Like, I think everyone who, who works, who does whatever job they do at a very high level does have in some ways an uncomfortable degree of ambition. But I think that, I think what you have to learn to do as a grown up and I. And being a grown up starts, I believe, around age 35 or 40, as far as I understand.

[Rachel Martin]

So you're just, you're just breaking into it right now. You're just getting your groove.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Is understanding how ambition does not work against being kind.

[Rachel Martin]

So when you were in your 20s and you said that some people could find you off putting because of your ambition.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

Were you, were you less kind or how did that manifest?

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think that it's. I honestly think that way it manifested was, you know, for, you know, things that are symbols, as simple as, like, forgetting people's names, forgetting to call people back, forgetting to, you know, email people back, or, you know, being transactional, being like asking for things but never offering things, you know, like. And I think that, that when I was in my 20s, it's like, that's what. Even my closest friends from college who. I'm still like, my improv group from college is still like some of my closest friends. I think if I were to really put their feet to the fire and like, what's the most critical thing you'd say about me in my twenties? They'd say, yeah, that, like, you were just like, you were there when, when you needed us and you weren't there when we needed you.

[Rachel Martin]

That's tough.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. I'm trying to find my way in that now. You know, I'm trying to, trying to earn people's trust back and you know all that.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. Do you. Are you good at carving out time for friendships? That's where I find it's hard. That's the thing that ends up falling away when you're at your family and your job and any kind of exercise one might do.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, I think I, I think it's, it's. I think it's probably my weakest vector of the. Of the pie. That is one's time. Yeah. I think friendship, I. I find probably the most challenging.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. Okay. Last one in this round. One, Two or three.

[Mike Birbiglia]

All right, let's do one.

[Rachel Martin]

What does age teach you about love?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, what does age teach you about love? I think that. I think what it teaches you is that it's. That it's a longer. It. It's. It's a longer term time frame than you think it is. Possibly when you're younger. Like that. When you're. When you're younger. When you're in your teens and twenties, you think you're so driven by, like, your passion of, like, I'm in love with this person. We're gonna see the world together. We're gonna, you know, Etc. And I think that. I think as you get older, you have a sense of, like. Like, oh, no, there's a longer. There's a longer game to this that, like, it's. That, like, in some ways, like, loving someone for. For 5 or 10 or 20 or 30 years is meaningful. And it's hard and challenging, but that the payoff of it's meaningful.

[Rachel Martin]

You've been married for a long time, right?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Sixteen, I think. Seventeen years in July.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. That's a long.

[Mike Birbiglia]

We got married at city hall almost 17 years ago.

[Rachel Martin]

And how old were you may ask?

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think I was 30. Yeah, I was 30.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. So when you were 30, did you have the same expectation of what a long love is as you do now?

[Mike Birbiglia]

I don't think. I don't think either of us did. I mean, what's funny is, like, a few years ago, Jenny said to me, she goes, when we got married, I didn't even think we were going to be married more than a year. I was like, you didn't think we were going to be married more than a year? Like, that's not. I thought we were getting married for life. Like, how come we weren't on the same page about that?

[Rachel Martin]

That's an inside thought.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Exactly. That's an inside. Though I was like, I thought, this is a whole life thing.

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[Rachel Martin]

Round three beliefs 1, 2 or 3?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Let's try 3.

[Rachel Martin]

3. Have you made peace with mortality?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, man. Yeah. I mean, it's funny. My last special, the Old man in the Pool, very much goes headlong into this where I basically was like, how do I can I make a show that's all about death and have it be funny and have us walk away feeling good, better than when we came in? And I feel like in a lot of ways I'm working through, to use your language, my making peace with ideas through the comedy specials. And so in a lot of ways, like, I'm working through these things. And yeah, I do feel like, I do feel like I have come to peace with mortality. Yeah, I do. I do.

[Rachel Martin]

In specific terms, how did making that special Old man in the Pool, how did that help you come to terms with dying either yours or your loved ones? Like, was there anything particular? Is it just the thinking of it over many, many months as you put it together?

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think it's spending so much time thinking about the people who I've lost in my life, who've died in my life, and thinking about how much life I've been lucky enough to live already. Yeah, already. And just this idea of like, this is a line that was too on the nose for the Old man in the Pool. But it's like, you know, I remember writing down this thought in my journal, which is like, you know, a day is a week is a month is a year is 10 years is 80 years. It's like we're all alive for about a day. And I feel like that's the kind of line that sometimes in my shows end up on the cutting room floor. But I feel the experience of it, and I feel like that's where I landed with that show.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. There's something you wrote. Forgive me. It was in an article, maybe it was in one of your specials, about your dad and maybe an uncle having a heart attack at the same age.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, it was my father. I think it's. My dad had a heart attack at 56. And his dad had a heart attack at 56. Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

So that is marked for you.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So. Yeah, exactly. I'm setting aside that whole year when I turned 56, I get an Airbnb by the hospital.

[Rachel Martin]

But that stuck with me because my mom died when she was 60, and I think that's far too young, but it does sear itself in your mind. And I'm 51 now, and I'm not 60 yet, but it is in my head, that age. And it does make you think. This is just icing, like, every day I get to live.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

It's just extra.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think Bill. I think Bill Burr had a joke recently, one of his specials where he's just like, guys just die in their 50s. You know, he's like, that's the age where people just start dying, you know, and he's not wrong. There is an amount of people who just keel over in their 50s. And it's.

[Rachel Martin]

And.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And that's a long time. I mean, my friend Mitch Hedberg, one of the great comedians of all time, he died when he's 37 years old, but he lived a lot of life.

[Rachel Martin]

Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I remember, like, I remember when Robin Williams died, who I was lucky enough to meet a handful of times. And I thought, this is devastating. But also, this guy has lived more life in this amount of time. He's lived 300 years of life in this space of time.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So is it a celebration or is it a tragedy? I think it veers more towards celebration.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. New cards. One, two, or three?

[Mike Birbiglia]

All right, new cards. Let's try two.

[Rachel Martin]

What truth guides your life more than any other?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Truth guides my life. I think the truth that probably guides my life is that that tr. That trying is more significant than the. Than results. Whenever I see people in their life or in their job or whatever it is, and they're trying in earnest to do their best, I always have respect for that, and I have it for myself. I have self respect when I am trying. I feel like I get down on myself most when I'm not trying to. And I think that that is definitely to circle back to one of the earlier questions. That's from my parents, for sure, is my parents would always point out, it doesn't matter if you win. It matters if you tried.

[Rachel Martin]

That's so interesting, though, because you also pointed to them when talking about your own ideas of ambition and how ambition could really take hold and at times lead you astray. And ambition is. Is very, you know, focused on outcome. That's what ambition is, is achieving. And it's focused on outcome, not the trying. So it's interesting that now maybe it's just the stage of your life, in your career, that you can look and say, no, it's the trying. It's the trying that matters.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. I think with the. Yeah. With this particular special, for the first time, it's. I'm not talking about something that happened in my past. I'm talking about something that happened in my. Is happening in my present. It was like, I'm dealing with raising my daughter now I'm dealing with taking care of my dad now. And I'm talking about. And it's completely unresolved, and no one knows which way it'll go, you know, as opposed to, I sleepwalked through a second story window 20 years ago, and now, you know, I sleep in a sleeping bag and I take medication, and I've dealt with it to some degree. And with this one, it was really a leap of faith. And there's an expression people say sometimes which is like. Which is like, you know, you can work and work and work and work, and you can get something so that it's 85 or 90% of what it could be. And at a certain point, you just go, well, the last 10%, that's God. Or that's something else that's outside of your grasp, your control. Yeah, And I think that's true. And I think with this particular special, it was more true of anything I've ever done, which is fun, which is ironic because it's thematically about God.

[Rachel Martin]

We end the show the same way every time, and we are indeed at the end with a trip in our memory time machine. In the memory time machine, you pick one moment to revisit from your past. It is not a moment you would change anything about. It's just a moment you would linger in a little longer. Longer. What moment do you choose?

[Mike Birbiglia]

I feel like when I was. When my daughter was probably about 5, we in Rhode island, my brother and sister, my brother Joe, my sister Gina live in Rhode island with their kids. And we brought Una to Rhode island, and we. And we took her out and they were all like bodyboarding in the ocean in Rhode Island. And it was such a euphoric feeling to witness Una, my daughter at age 5, catching a wave. That feeling of catching a wave and it's and it's propelling you and you're going probably faster than you've ever gone on anything. And just to witness her doing this with her cousins and it was just so beautiful. And every now and then I witnessed this at different ages that she experiences, but that one really sticks out as just so beautiful.

[Rachel Martin]

Mike Birbiglia, thank you so much for doing this.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Thank you. Thanks for having me. This is wonderful.

[Rachel Martin]

Mike's new comedy special is called the Good Life. It is on Netflix. You can go to Netflix right now and click the remind me button and it will remind you when it is dropping. If you like this conversation, you should go back and listen to my episode with Lena Waite. Like Mike, Lena was refreshingly honest about the parts of her personality that could take a toll on her relationships. I found the conversation extremely moving and also very fun. Today's episode was produced by Lee Hale and edited by Dave Blanchard. It was mastered by Patrick Murray. Wildcard's executive producer is Yolanda Sangweni and our theme music is by Ramtin Arablouei. You can reach out to us at wildcat card p r.org I love it when you do and we're going to shuffle the deck and then we will be back with more next week. Talk to you then.

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