Nick Offerman

Summary

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Wild Card with Rachel Martin

Episode: Nick Offerman
Release Date: October 16, 2025
Host: Rachel Martin (NPR)
Guest: Nick Offerman

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Episode Overview

In this episode of Wild Card, Rachel Martin sits down with actor, writer, and master woodworker Nick Offerman for an open, moving, and often hilarious conversation. True to the show’s premise, random cards draw out Offerman’s memories, beliefs, and hard-won wisdom about family, craft, risk, and the definition of a “good life.” Offerman discusses his Midwest roots, his deep admiration for human ingenuity (especially as expressed in woodworking), and the importance of purposeful affection and stewardship. The conversation explores how to judge a life, the influence of Offerman’s parents, his partnership with Megan Mullally, and a quiet reverence for the simple, sturdy pleasures that woodworking and community bring.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Formative Places and Family (02:39–07:24)

• The Workshop as Foundation:
  Offerman describes the workshop at Uncle Dan’s farm in Minooka, Illinois, as a transformative place. He recalls the shed's role in teaching him resourcefulness, creativity, and the value of fixing and making things.
  • “There was a very Han Solo and Chewbacca feeling to the shed...you never paid anybody to fix anything, and you never bought a new part if you could help it.” – Offerman ([03:00])
• Family Ingenuity:
  Both Offerman and Martin bond over stories of family members who made their own tools and took pride in craft, highlighting the artistry and resourcefulness of rural life.
  • “[My grandpa] made these, like, medieval spears with, like, the real, you know, the tip. Different tips on the top just for the hell of it.” – Martin ([05:09])
  • Offerman recounts carving a full-size felling axe out of a single piece of mahogany, appreciating the tactile satisfaction and connection to human creativity. ([06:49])

2. Coming of Age & Parental Wisdom (07:40–16:19)

• Seeing Parents as People:
  Offerman’s college experience brought a newfound perspective on his parents' sacrifices and wisdom.
  • “I remember going, and this is 1988...finding a payphone and call my dad and say...I immediately see how patient you’ve been with me and all the lessons that you and mom have given me.” – Offerman ([09:56])
• Leaving Home:
  While he values the tight-knit community and tradition of his upbringing, Offerman was excited to discover new worlds in theater school, cultural movements, and creative circles.
  • “I was ready...to live an artistic life. I want to be considered a member of the beat generation somehow.” – Offerman ([14:17])

3. The Value & Vulnerability of Craft (18:15–24:24)

• The Mission of ‘Little Woodchucks’:
  Offerman’s new book aims to reconnect families to the joy and skill of making things with their hands—particularly with woodworking.
  • “The idea behind this one is to encourage families to make things together and to teach your kids how to use hand tools.” – Offerman ([18:23])
  • The conversation underscores the modern loss of tool literacy and the joy (and humility) of learning (and failing) together.
  • “When you see what you can do, you feel like a superhero.” – Offerman ([22:45])
  • Rachel expresses her own anxieties and the significance of modeling humility and risk-taking for her sons. Offerman reassures her that mistakes are an essential part of mastery.

4. Love, Risk & Purpose (24:30–29:19)

• Biggest Risk—Choosing Love:
  Offerman discusses the vulnerability and exhilaration of falling in love with his now-wife, Megan Mullally.
  • “It was quite terrifying because she seemed like another species...I think there might be something going on here, and I’m already just scared shitless.” – Offerman ([25:19])
  • “I would have liked to have been consulted about this...you’re just here. And so obviously, after 25 wonderful years together, I’m so grateful.” – Offerman ([27:36])
• Human Purpose:
  He reflects that real happiness and meaning stem from loving and caring for others, echoing a theme from his acclaimed episode of The Last of Us.
  • “Figure out who you’re gonna love, go to an independent hardware store, get the things you need, make some tongs, cook some goddamn sausages, call it a day.” – Offerman ([29:21])

5. Understanding Satisfaction (30:37–34:22)

• On Satisfaction:
  Offerman, citing Wendell Berry, shares that his deepest emotional understanding is satisfaction—the fulfillment in doing meaningful, diligent work and leading a life grounded in stewardship.
  • “Good work is our joy and salvation, I believe. And what that means is looking in your life and understanding, seeing the work that needs doing...and I do it, and I do my best at it.” – Offerman ([31:18])
  • He notes this attitude shields him from much of modern anxiety, and he would feel content even if he never acted again.

6. Judging a Life & Acts of Generosity (36:28–39:27)

• How Life Should Be Judged:
  Offerman reflects on the dismantling and moving of his beloved woodshop, realizing its deep meaning not through profit, but through its service to a community of craftspeople.
  • “I try to make choices. I try to err on the side of generosity and taking care of others. I think I won’t fail. I think I won’t get a failing grade.” – Offerman ([38:41])
  • The act of enabling others’ artistry, even at personal or financial cost, is central to his sense of a life well-lived.

7. Religion, Art, and Spiritual Practice (39:32–43:57)

• Religious Roots & Spiritual Practice:
  Offerman’s deep respect for his parents’ lived Christianity—rooted in action, not proselytization—shaped his values, even as he moved away from church.
  • “They literally...just live it and lead by example. I just wish everyone could understand that.” – Offerman ([40:00])
  • Theater, for Offerman, became his sacred space, with his mentor imparting the lesson:
    • “The way of the art is the way of the Buddha, which means everyone has a gift...to be of service to others.” ([42:13])

8. The Good Life & Affection (44:05–47:17)

• Living a Good Life:
  Affection and paying attention stand at the core of a good life. Offerman warns of modern comforts dulling our awareness—culturally and environmentally.
  • “Wendell Berry says that it all turns on affection...it's simply maintaining awareness, pulling back the veil that all of our wonderful consumerist products have placed over us...So it’s just paying attention, I think.” – Offerman ([44:15], [46:03])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Humility and Learning:
  “You have to break a lot of eggs to like make an award winning omelet.” – Offerman ([24:07])

• On Parental Example:
  “If there are two better parents in the history of mankind, I'd like you to show them to me.” – Offerman ([07:52])

• On Purpose:
  “Figuring out your purpose is the people that you're going to love and take care of. That's—otherwise, what's the point?” – Offerman ([29:05])

• On Savoring Simplicity:
  “You can grow a turnip. Most people can grow a turnip and you can share it with your family. But don’t forget the soul.” – Offerman ([48:44])

• On Risk in Love:
  “We’re achieving an emotional intimacy that just seems like a really bad idea for her.” – Offerman, on falling for Megan Mullally ([26:36])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |--------------------------------------------------------|------------| | Memories: Workshop & Family Influence | 02:39–07:24| | Seeing Parents as People | 07:40–11:53| | Leaving Home/Cultural Awakening | 12:44–16:19| | Woodworking Book & Lessons for Families | 18:15–24:24| | Biggest Risk: Love & Marriage | 24:30–29:42| | Understanding Satisfaction | 30:37–34:22| | Judging a Life / Woodshop as Community | 36:28–39:27| | Religion, Art, and the Sacredness of Craft | 39:32–43:57| | Living a Good Life / Affection & Attention | 44:05–47:17| | Memory Time Machine: Grandpa Mike & the Turnip | 47:40–48:44|

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Tone & Atmosphere

The episode is warm, earthy, candid, and laced with wry humor. Offerman moves between deeply considered philosophy and playful banter, keeping the conversation grounded in the tangible but always circling life’s big questions. The chemistry between Offerman and Martin brings out stories, confessions, and plenty of sausage jokes, echoing the values of humility, affection, and purpose that anchor the episode.

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Recommended listening: Rachel suggests the John Lithgow episode for fans of articulate, insightful actors.
Nick Offerman’s new release: Little Woodchucks: Offerman Woodshop's Guide to Tools and Tomfoolery.

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Transcript

[Announcer]

This message comes from Michelin. More than its hire company, Michelin is an innovation company now taking on space, developing an airless wheel for space exploration. Motion for Life. [e-mail] y michelinnovation Just a heads up.

[Rachel Martin]

There'S some strong language in this episode and also some very nice descriptions of woodworking. How do you think your life should be judged?

[Nick Offerman]

I'll answer this at 3:30 this morning when I come awake from a deep sleep. Because, you know, that's the human condition I think is being able to look in the mirror and be honest with oneself.

[Rachel Martin]

I'm Rachel Martin and this is Wild Card, the show where cards control the conversation. Each week my guest answers questions about their life. Questions pulled from a deck of cards. They're allowed to skip one question and to flip one question back on me. My guest this week is Nick Offerman.

[Nick Offerman]

Figure out who you're gonna love. Go to an independent hardware store. Get the things you need. Make some tongs. Cook some goddamn sausages.

[Rachel Martin]

There's something about Nick Offerman that seems of another time. Maybe it's his deep affection for woodworking and penchant for flannel shirts. Or his impressive vocabulary and love of the naturalist writer Wendell Berry. Nick got famous as Ron Swanson in Parks and Rec, but he won an Emmy for his role as a survivalist in the HBO show the Last of Us. And in his acceptance speech, he used words like decency and fidelity, which sometimes feel like values of a bygone era. Nick Offerman is also a writer and his latest book is a how to on woodworking for parents and kids. It's called Little Woodchucks. Offerman Woodshop's Guide to Tools and Tomfoolery. I am so happy to welcome Nick Offerman to Wildcard. Hi.

[Announcer]

Hello.

[Nick Offerman]

Thank you. That was a really generous introduction.

[Rachel Martin]

Well, I'm really excited to talk with you. Round one. Memories. We get deeper as we go. Nick Offerman. Are you ready?

[Nick Offerman]

I'm ready.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay, let's go.

[Nick Offerman]

I've been stretching for several minutes.

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, good. I'm sure your calf muscles need to be stretched out. Maybe a tricep, a delta.

[Nick Offerman]

The hammies for me. I gotta keep them.

[Announcer]

Hammies.

[Rachel Martin]

The hammies.

[Nick Offerman]

Oh, yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

I can't really speak extemporaneously unless my hamstrings are loose. First three cards. One, two or three?

[Nick Offerman]

I'll go two, please.

[Rachel Martin]

Two. What's a place that shaped you Just as much as any person did?

[Nick Offerman]

What's a place that shaped me Just as much as any person did The Workshop end of the shed. At Uncle Dan's farm, a few miles from the house I grew up in, my mom's whole family are still farming corn and soybeans. And Uncle Dan is the oldest of four kids, so he sort of became the de facto big farmer that was a CB handle big farmer. And at his house was the enormous shed that housed a lot of the tractors and combines and farm equipment. And at one end of it was just called the shop. So you got the shed, and then at one end is the shop, and the shop is where all of the tools lived, and it's where they were able to fix anything. There was a very Han Solo and Chewbacca feeling to the shed, because you. If you could at all help it, you never paid anybody to fix anything, and you never bought a new part if you could help it.

[Rachel Martin]

No, that's right.

[Nick Offerman]

Uncle Dan and his younger brother, Uncle Don, would. Would fashion new parts out of coffee cans. And, like, they were just incredible MacGyvers of. Of. Of inspiration. And so the. That was one of the main.

[Rachel Martin]

Remind me where this was.

[Nick Offerman]

A small town called Minooka, Illinois, about an hour southwest of Chicago. And so, I mean, just seeing what happened in there. And then as I became a teenager, Uncle Dan's son Ryan, my cousin, who was my closest bestie growing up, he bought an El camino, like a 1970 El Camino that he fixed up and did a paint job on. And he let me help him sometimes. And so that was one of the places where I just saw the way that we could affect the world around us with tools and ingenuity and how that was much cheaper than going to the mall, but also sometimes more frustrating.

[Rachel Martin]

My grandpa was. My family are farmers. Wheat and barley from Idaho. And my grandpa made all his tools as well. Not all, but to this day, we still have. My sister has them in her house. He made these, like, medieval spears with, like, the real, you know, the tip. Different tips on the top just for the hell of it. Like, he could make things. He used things to make things. He was a potato farmer. He made, like, the potato sorter, and he built all the instruments he needed to build those things. But the fact that he could. He would make these tools as art, too, was, like, this different way that he elevated his craft. And I love that. It just felt wild in his workshop. Right. Like, there's, like, the flame of things, and his hands were always, like, sooty and strong and. Yeah.

[Nick Offerman]

Although I love that about human ingenuity, that when you have to make an implement, you Know, he's a farmer, he's making things that he needed. But, you know, I was making a canoe paddle one time and I. I really enjoy taking a rectilinear piece of wood and shaping it down to a canoe paddle. And you can start to feel the use in the paddle as it takes. You're like, oh, wow. I can feel how this is going to work so efficaciously. This is the perfect shape for paddling and it's ergonomic. And so I had the idea. Similarly, he made spears. I started making a series of wooden. The first one I made is a felling axe out of a plank of mahogany. I just carved an entire full size axe. So the head and the shaft are all just one piece of mahogany.

[Rachel Martin]

One piece. Wow.

[Nick Offerman]

And I love this thing. I love to just hold it and feel this. It's a sculpture, basically. And I. You still have it. I love that. About human creativity. Yeah. That we say. I mean, when I was building decks and cabins in people's yards in Los Angeles, post and beam structures, similarly, I said, oh, wait a second, I could make a dining room table. I can put this gazebo up. If I just change a few things around. I could rest my beer on it and my barbecue.

[Rachel Martin]

You could have made a fine living. I mean, we'll see where the cards take us. But I am in interested in like, I guess I'll be an actor instead. But let's go to the next three cards. Three new cards. 1, 2 or 3?

[Nick Offerman]

3.

[Rachel Martin]

3. Was there a moment when you started seeing your parents as people?

[Nick Offerman]

Yeah, a moment springs to mind. I have. If there are two better parents in the history of mankind, I'd like you to show them to me. I'll put my mom and dad up against anybody. They're just incredible. They raised four kids and we all have very good manners and we all aspire to the lives of service that mom and dad. The example that our mom and dad set. Of course, being raised by very decent people like that can be a real pain in the ass sometimes. If you're trying to have fun and figure, you know, push the envelope, it.

[Rachel Martin]

Can be a real bummer.

[Nick Offerman]

And I think I, among my siblings, who are all very smart and funny, and I really admire all three of them. I think the thing that I was probably the best at was seeing what I could get away with. I was the troublemaker, I think, of the four of us. And so, you know, I spent my formative years doing that with my mom and dad and also with the world with School, like, seeing what rules I could break and still get into college and that sort of thing. And so it was once I went away to the University of illinois at age 18 to study theater. Three hours south of mom and dad, out on my own for the first time. You know, I got my first checkbook and was, you know, a fledgling adult. Like, okay, go. Fly right. Leave the nest. And just being out in the world and being responsible for myself 100%, it just fell on me. I remember going, and this is 1988. So I had to find a payphone and. And call my dad and say, so, hey, dad, it's Nick. First of all, I just want to apologize for the last four or five years. I immediately see how patient you've been with me and all the lessons that you and mom have given me, which are just be decent, work hard. If you're going to do a job, do it right. Treat everyone, everyone with the same respect that you would like to be treated. I mean, just these wonderful, incredible values, these bedrock moral lessons just landed on me, like I said, just with distance.

[Rachel Martin]

Did that come as a result of contrast? Were you making friends or being exposed to people who did not have such great parents?

[Nick Offerman]

That definitely was the case. A lot of, you know, it's sort of a trope that people end up in showbiz if they have traumatic childhoods or if they're not getting enough love one way or another. So I definitely had a lot of epiphanies happening. And this is, mind you, it's in Champaign, Urbana, Illinois. Like, still in the middle of the corn fields of the Midwest. But mainly it was just, I think, being out of the sort of nest of security that I lived in with my mom and dad. And so just saying, okay, I have to take care of myself. I have to do my own laundry and pay my bills and be responsible in a way. I have to cover all of these responsibilities that mom and dad have been taking care of. And that's when the epiphany occurred where I said, but I know everything. I know the right way to do everything. It's so simple. It's all mom and dad have been telling me my whole life.

[Rachel Martin]

Huh. They do sound like good parents.

[Nick Offerman]

They are. I mean, they're still at it.

[Rachel Martin]

You still have them. They're still walking the world.

[Nick Offerman]

Yeah. They're young and spry, and dad is the mayor of our small town, Minooka. He just ran unopposed for the second time.

[Announcer]

Wow.

[Nick Offerman]

Which means in the political cartoon, my mom would be carrying him around town on her shoulders. It's that kind of household where, yeah, they're both pretty heroic.

[Rachel Martin]

Wow, that's amazing.

[Nick Offerman]

I'm very grateful.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. Next three, last one in this round.

[Nick Offerman]

One, two or three, One, please.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay, well, this is a little bit similar. Were you intimidated or excited about leaving your parents house?

[Nick Offerman]

I was excited. This, I say, and I say this lovingly, I love my hometown, but it was a bit of a cultural vacuum, at least my sphere was. So we, you know, we greatly enjoyed top 40 music and what was on the three TV channels. You know, we certainly had culture to enjoy. But once I got to theater school and I met my counterculture friends who said, you know, I was like, yeah, I love the Beatles, I want to hold your hand. Right. And they were like, no man, here is marijuana, here's the White Album, here's Abbey Road. And I mean, and it was just years of this, of forming my tribe, which became this theater company called the Defiant Theater in Chicago. They turned me on to. We watched Twin Peaks religiously, Laurie Anderson, David lynch, the Talking Heads, they might be giants. All of these wonderful writers and filmmakers and musicians that there just wasn't anybody. There weren't any T heads in Minooka, like happing me, you know, One of my first roommates, Rob Kimmel, gave me his dog eared copy of on the Road by Jack Kerouac. And I was like, oh, right, I'm a hedonist. I want to live an artistic life. I want to be considered a member of the beat generation somehow.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. So you were ready?

[Nick Offerman]

So I was, yeah. Like I knew the world was out there, but I didn't know what it would hold. And so it was pretty crazy because my three siblings, they all live within one block of mom and dad now.

[Rachel Martin]

Wow.

[Nick Offerman]

And they have this. And it kind of drives me crazy not to be there with them because it's such an incredible resource when you do have a loving family that has meals together and takes, you know, there's childcare, there's gardening, there's, you know, there are all these wonderful help meets and checks and balances. And so I knew that I felt like I had, I don't know, I had a journey waiting for me out in the great wide world of marijuana. And the revolver.

[Rachel Martin]

Second reference. Just saying.

[Nick Offerman]

I mean. And other intoxicants. Yeah, I'm not a specialist, but I knew that I was leaving behind the great comforts, the domestic comforts. My household always felt like Little House on the Prairie that had that kind of goodness to whatever narrative was happening to us on any given week.

[Rachel Martin]

Hmm. Does that mean your dad was Michael Landon? I love Michael Landon.

[Nick Offerman]

In hindsight, it's funny to me how many ladies on the way out of church would tell me how good looking they thought my dad was.

[Rachel Martin]

That starts to get awkward, doesn't it?

[Nick Offerman]

When you're like, okay, it is a little weird. Yeah.

[Announcer]

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[Rachel Martin]

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[Announcer]

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[Rachel Martin]

Support for this podcast and the following message come from Dignity Memorial for many families, remembering loved ones means honoring the details that made them unique. Dignity Memorial is dedicated to professionalism and compassion in every detail of a life celebration. Find a provider near [e-mail] this message is from Synchrony bank who can help you get your Do Nothing savings to work hard with their High Yield Savings account. Put your lazy savings to [e-mail] NPR Member FDIC now we're going to talk about your book, which congratulations by the way.

[Nick Offerman]

Thank you.

[Rachel Martin]

You've written about woodworking before, but this is the first time you've done something specifically for kids and parents.

[Nick Offerman]

It is, yeah, for sure. The idea behind this one is to encourage families to make things together and to teach your kids how to use hand tools. But secretly I'm aware that like most of our population, more and more has lost the ability to use hand tools and the knowledge to, you know, to fix things, even around the house or on their vehicles or what have you. So not so secretly. It's like, hey, parents, teach your kids how to use these tools. And also maybe you could learn to use the tools, right? And you might really find that they're really fun.

[Rachel Martin]

I mean, I have no doubt that my 13 year old and 11 year old boys would be into the idea. It's me who's the problem. I am intimidated by the process. I mean, I read the book completely, mostly because it's hysterical. And I mean it's some good grown up writing too. There's more than one like God damn it in there. Which is just a good grandpa swear word. But then you get to the pages where there's pictures of all the tools necessary for each item and I just look at that and that feels like a complicated trip to Home Depot. And then I will purchase the tools and then I don't know what to do with them. But that's my own issue. You can't solve all of my anxieties, Nick Offerman.

[Nick Offerman]

But I appreciate the issue. But instead of being intimidated, first of all, and I'm glad we're getting this on npr, you don't want to go to the big box store that you mentioned. You don't want to go to a big corporate home store because they don't have generally people who know much. In fact, there's a famous Ron Swanson scene where somebody comes up to him at one of these stores and says, can I help you? And Ron says, I know more than you. And like blows past.

[Rachel Martin]

That's not true for me. But I, I hear what you're saying. Like go to a place with expertise. Right.

[Nick Offerman]

You have the right idea. But instead of these big stores where just by the corporate template, they're not gonna have all the, they're hiring young, minimum wage people who don't.

[Rachel Martin]

It's not their business model. Right.

[Nick Offerman]

They don't know. Yeah. And if so, what you need to do is go to a smaller independent hardware store. And the thing is, it's so fun because you'll find people that care about these things that aren't just in retail selling you like a new flip phone or something, they're like, oh, that's fun. And they'll say, well, here's this kind of glue and here's are the pros and cons. Or here's this other tight bond 3. This is good for exterior.

[Rachel Martin]

C clamp. Yeah, I learned what that was reading your book.

[Nick Offerman]

It's incredible. It's so fun. And so, and then there's another, some, another part of what you touched on is when you, when you feel nervous about this yourself, if you have, would you say your boys are 13 and 11.

[Rachel Martin]

13 and 11.

[Nick Offerman]

I mean you're, you're my. I'm in the sweet spot demographic yeah. Because if the three of you do it together, what you'll learn is one of you will be the best at something, one of you will suck at something, and you'll mess things up and you'll. But you'll figure out together. Yeah. And the thing is, somebody's going to be an ace at like cutting to a pencil line, let's say. But then the other one or two of you are required to hold things in place and to do all of these actions together. And it is so much fun. It's like doing a jigsaw puzzle, but more substantial. And when you're done, you actually have a tool or a toy or an implementation. You've made a set of tongs that you can use to flip your sausages.

[Rachel Martin]

The tongs are the best thing in there. And you said that it's easy. I felt like that's what I would start with, is like making little tongs that you can use all the time.

[Nick Offerman]

That's your gateway project because mainly is gluing and a little bit of sanding. And when you see what you can do, you feel like a superhero. You're like, oh, my God, I took these useless tongue depressors and now I can pull my toast out of the toaster. This life is gorgeous.

[Rachel Martin]

Also a thing I love is that I'm always talking to my kids about how to be uncomfortable. Right? Like, mm, just like, seek out new experiences and test yourself and take risks. And I think what I like about this idea is that this is very intimidating to me. I am not a fixer. My sister was always someone who could put things together. I'm not that person. And it's almost become part of my identity. And I think it would be powerful if I tried to make a thing and they saw me getting out of my own comfort zone and maybe not sucking as bad as I think I am gonna suck at it.

[Nick Offerman]

I don't know.

[Rachel Martin]

You've inspired me.

[Nick Offerman]

No, it's huge. It's a huge life lesson that I still get constantly in the wood shop. I can never reiterate this enough. We all. I mean, I've been at it for decades and if I'm making anything, a footstool, a table, I buy extra wood because I know I'm going to make mistakes. And if you understand that in your life that anything you want to excel at or achieve a degree of mastery, that you're not going to do it out of the gate, you have to break a lot of eggs to like make an award winning omelet.

[Rachel Martin]

We're back in the game. Round two Insights. Three new cards. One. Two or three?

[Nick Offerman]

Three, please.

[Rachel Martin]

Three. What's the biggest risk you've ever taken?

[Nick Offerman]

Crazy question. What's the biggest risk I've ever taken? The thing that I was most afraid to do. I did a play in 2000 with my estimable bride, Megan Mullally, and I met her for the first time, and she was about to win her first Emmy for Will and Grace for playing Karen Walker. And I was living in a dirt basement in Silver Lake, and so part of la.

[Rachel Martin]

Yep.

[Nick Offerman]

It was quite. It was quite terrifying because she seemed like another species. Like.

[Rachel Martin]

In what way?

[Nick Offerman]

She just was so gorgeous and sophisticated and cultured and like, she had been, you know, she had been sort of leading actress on stage and screen for years in a way that she just knew so much more about the world and was also so funny and smart. I just was so. I loved getting to be. I fell in love with being friends with her quickly, but just really quickly, I was like, wait, telling my best friend, like, I think there might be something going on here. And I'm already just scared shitless like this. You know what I mean? It was like if Meryl Streep or something showed up where. It's just like, I think Meryl Streep and I are in love, but that doesn't seem possible or right. Like, there's something wrong with her.

[Rachel Martin]

Someone should warn her.

[Nick Offerman]

Yeah, she's. We're achieving an emotional intimacy that just seems like a really bad idea for her. And so we started dating and we started living together. And I was driving. I used to hang lights for Disney for the Imagineering department, who creates all of the parks and maintains the parks and rides around the world. And I was driving up an hour north of LA to Valencia. There was a campus up there one day, and I remember exactly where I was on the 5 freeway when it occurred to me that I would be marrying Megan, that this was it. I was 29, I think, or 30.

[Rachel Martin]

You had not asked her? She had not asked you? No, it was just this awareness that.

[Nick Offerman]

It was gonna happen, that this was it. It had arrived. And I shook my fist. I literally shook my fist at the heavens and said, I would have liked to have been consulted about this. Like, you're just here. And so obviously, after 25 wonderful years together, I'm so grateful.

[Rachel Martin]

But this felt like the biggest risk.

[Nick Offerman]

Absolutely. Because I hadn't done any arithmetic. Like, I'm a pragmatist and a frugal person. So, like, I Hadn't given it its proper consideration by any stretch. You know what I mean? I hadn't reached it.

[Rachel Martin]

You were just going with your head or you were not with your head, you were going with your heart.

[Nick Offerman]

Yeah. The boy in me was like, well, I'm sure someday I'll settle down, but. And somehow the voice of Mother Nature was like, guess what, buddy? It's arrived.

[Rachel Martin]

It's happening now.

[Nick Offerman]

You are here. You're becoming a husband. And it was terrifying. And in some ways, it still is. And that's what's wonderful about being in love is like, to me, that's what makes my life happy. And it's the whole point of living. It's what that script, that wonderful script that Craig Mason wrote of the episode of the Last of Us that got all that attention was just about, like, figuring out your purpose is the people that you're going to love and take care of. That's. Otherwise, what's the point?

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. Yeah, totally.

[Nick Offerman]

Figure out who you're gonna love, Go to an independent hardware store, get the things you need, make some tongs, cook some goddamn sausages, call it a day.

[Rachel Martin]

Do you really make your own sausages, by the way? There's a lot of sausage references in the book, and it led me to think, do you make sausage?

[Nick Offerman]

No. You mean from scratch?

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, I mean from scratch. You maker guy, you. Oh, okay.

[Nick Offerman]

No, no. God, I mean, I probably will make my own sausage, like, knowing myself.

[Rachel Martin]

Right. Eventually, you're going to get there.

[Nick Offerman]

Yeah. I admire. There was a wonderful guy that taught school with my dad named Lou Verjamac. And Lou. Big Lou made sausage and his bratwurst as a kid. I think that was the formative. That was my gateway meat delivery system, where I was like, I'm going to try to make being a carnivore part of my brand. And by God, here we are. Check. Yep.

[Rachel Martin]

Three new cards. One, two, three.

[Nick Offerman]

One, please.

[Rachel Martin]

What emotion do you understand better than all the others?

[Nick Offerman]

What emotion do I understand better than all the others?

[Announcer]

Gosh.

[Nick Offerman]

I mean, my. My family and I are famously taciturn. And so I keep. The answers that occur to me are not emotions. They are states. Like, I'm like, well, patience, satisfaction.

[Rachel Martin]

Wait, say more about satisfaction.

[Nick Offerman]

Well, I mean, Wendell Berry says, good work. Oh, hell, now I'm nervous. Good work is our joy and salvation, I believe. And what that means is looking in your life and understanding, seeing the work that needs doing. And it often involves stewardship, caring for your people and your property and your agriculture, which, in my case, I Don't grow a crop. I grow woodworkers and things made of wood. Like, it's an easy analogy to make. Everyone is a gardener or should be. And so I have good work to do, and I do it, and I do my best at it. It's flawed. It's never. I haven't won a lot of trophies for a lot of my work, but I feel very satisfied knowing that I'm not a wastrel. I'm not, you know, I'll always be a flawed donkey, but I'm. But I'm going to, I think, get good grades in the final reckoning because I'm not spending a lot of time down at the pub or avoiding my work. But ultimately, that keeps me. You know, a lot of people in showbiz and I think just in modern life in this information age, suffer from anxiety. The deluge of information and choice is very bad for people, because that's the thing about the fear of my marriage is like, have I considered all the options? You know, is there an app I haven't even heard about that I should. You know, and ultimately, I love the simplicity that I've achieved, and that allows me to be satisfied. You know.

[Rachel Martin]

I think to be satisfied is an emotion. We get to define the terms here, and I think he qualifies.

[Nick Offerman]

Well, then I'm. I'm grateful. I. I like to live in a way that if showbiz calls up and says, okay, Nick, your. Your cheekbones are not cutting it anymore, and we're. And we're gonna cancel you for any one of the reasons that you know. You know, And I would say, okay, I've been kind of expecting this call.

[Rachel Martin]

Been a good ride.

[Nick Offerman]

And you know what? I'm satisfied. I'm gonna go to my shop, and now I'm gonna learn how to make sausage.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, yeah, that's right. That's right.

[Nick Offerman]

You know what to do. I'm telling you, if you see within five years, Offerman sausage hitting the shelves, I'll probably quote you on the label. Like, it's. I mean, you have. That's all I can think of.

[Rachel Martin]

I love a pork product.

[Nick Offerman]

I'm just. How am I not grinding my own sausage?

[Rachel Martin]

Maybe all these beautiful pictures of cured meats in this woodworking book. And I was like, did you make these meats?

[Announcer]

Make these.

[Nick Offerman]

You know what I need, Nick off my sausage?

[Rachel Martin]

What?

[Nick Offerman]

Fennel. Fennel.

[Rachel Martin]

Fennel seed. Fennel seed that is easily procurable.

[Nick Offerman]

This is exciting.

[Announcer]

Foreign. This message comes from NPR sponsor Rosetta Stone, an expert in language learning for 30 years. Right now, NPR listeners can get Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership to 25 different languages for 50% off. Learn more at rosettastone.com NPR this message comes from NPR Sponsor 1Password Secure access to your online world from emails to banking, so you can protect what matters most with 1Password. For a free 2 week trial, go to 1Password.com NPR this message comes from.

[Rachel Martin]

The Council for Interior Design Qualification. Interior designer and CIDQ President Siyavash Madani describes the rigor of NCIDQ certification.

[Announcer]

An NCIDQ certified interior designer must complete.

[Nick Offerman]

A minimum of six years of specialized education and work experience. Being NCIDQ certified means that you've proven.

[Announcer]

Your knowledge and skills and are recognized.

[Nick Offerman]

As a qualified interior design professional.

[Rachel Martin]

Learn [e-mail] NPR this message comes from.

[Announcer]

Wise, the app for using money around the globe. When you manage your money with Wise, you'll always get the mid market exchange rate with no hidden fees. Join millions of customers and visit wise.com.

[Rachel Martin]

Ts and Cs apply round three beliefs 1, 2 or 3?

[Nick Offerman]

3, please.

[Rachel Martin]

How do you think your life should be judged?

[Nick Offerman]

I'll, I'll, I'll answer this at 3:30 this morning when I come awake from a deep sleep because you know, that's, that's the, the human condition I think is being able to look in the mirror and be honest with oneself and say how should my life be judged? You know, I, I, I get a lot of work done and I feel really good about my work. And I, you know, I recently had to move my wood shop after 20 years. Landlord, developer reasons we had to move the shop and it was so traumatic because once I was faced with that, I realized that the shop itself was probably the best thing I've ever made. But I hadn't thought about it as something that I had made until it was going to go away.

[Rachel Martin]

Like compared to even your body of work as an actor and no, I.

[Nick Offerman]

Mean as a woodworker.

[Rachel Martin]

As a woodworker. Okay.

[Nick Offerman]

Yeah. And so it was very traumatic and something one of the choices was well, this is going to be such a pain in the butt and really expensive to move the shop to find LA real estate that's not an hour away that's affordable and that all of my woodworkers who have chosen the sort of hippie life of riding a bicycle to the wood shop to, you know, to make things out of wood, how can it service all of them? And, and so the first obvious choice was, well, you should throw in the towel. Like let it go. It's, you know, it's. I, it doesn't make a profit. It's not a money making scheme by any stretch. And I didn't think about it very long at all. I was just like, no, I think I love. It's part of my gardening. I love trying to make a happy, healthy life for four or five people who have chosen the life of a woodworker in Los Angeles with. And so we went through the trouble and expense of moving it. And so I try to make choices. I try to err on the side of generosity and taking care of others. I think I won't fail. I think I won't get a failing grade. Yeah, I think you're okay. I'm doing my best. And that's the thing mom and dad taught me to just do my best. And I. And I am.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. Three new cards. One, two or three?

[Nick Offerman]

Two, please.

[Rachel Martin]

What's the most religious thing about you?

[Nick Offerman]

What's the most religious thing about me? I was raised in the Catholic Church. My mom and dad are still great examples of. They're the, they're the greatest Christians I've ever met. And, and, and guess what? They never have said to anybody anything about Christianity.

[Rachel Martin]

Right.

[Nick Offerman]

They literally. They're like. They are the. They both work at the church. You know, they just live it. They just, they live it and they lead by example. I just wish. Yeah, I wish everyone could understand that.

[Rachel Martin]

But what about you?

[Nick Offerman]

Well, I'm setting up the foundation where I. So I was brought up in the Catholic Church and I was an altar boy. It was a big part of my life, but I knew the whole time that the Catholic Church wasn't for me. Sitting in a congregation, which I came to learn it was part of what sent me to the theater. Sitting in a church, a full church, and hearing the lack of enthusiasm and the general. What I perceived to be a pretty ineffectual delivery of storytelling.

[Announcer]

Right.

[Rachel Martin]

Could be so much better, right?

[Nick Offerman]

Yeah. I just felt like it's not a good system, you know, and lo and behold. And it's funny, I haven't actually made this connection until now, but lo and behold, I was like, I need to go to the theater. And I had seen some theater as a kid around.

[Rachel Martin]

But, like, I'm interested in the connection. People are at the pulpit and there's stories that are being told. And intuitively you're like, that person's not a good storyteller. I know the impact of that story could be more profound. And I think I'm gonna take my Shot maybe telling some different stories.

[Nick Offerman]

Exactly. And so, I mean, I was led like Parsifal the Fool. I was like Sidd Harth. I was led to the theater. And my sensei, Shouzo Sato, one of the many sort of Zen koans that sensei passed along to me and his many students was the way of the art is the way of the Buddha, which means that everyone has a gift. Everyone. Mother Nature has made us all the greatest at something. And our job in life is to discern what that gift is and then discern how to use it to be of service to others. The way of the art is the way of the Buddha, which means. So your art, whatever your art is, and you could be an accountant, it doesn't have to be a literal art, but whatever your art is, that is what is holy about you. That just really struck me. That's part of why I still have my wood shop. And it's part of why, you know, I don't have to write books. I'm doing really well as an actor. I could, like, buy a boat and smoke cigars and get fat. But it's. That took root in me. The way of the art is the way of the Buddha. And so for whatever contribution I can make, whether it's, like, literally profound good writing through a dramatic role or a really stupid comedy that makes people, you know, people in a hospital bed laugh and forget about their aching pancreas, or if it's something in my wood shop or anything in between. All of these things that I feel religious about.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. Last one, Nick Offerman. One. Two or three?

[Nick Offerman]

Three, please.

[Rachel Martin]

Well, I think you have answered this in different forms, but I will ask it because that is what is on the card. What does it mean to live a good life?

[Nick Offerman]

What does it mean to live a good life? For me, it's paying attention. Wendell Berry says that it all turns on affection. And so when things make me mad, which they often do, or people make me mad, I'm of a mindset. And sometimes I succeed at finding my affection for them. And that said, for me, I have an onboard skepticism that I guess came factory standard, where I have a mistrust of humanity. What we have done with our incredibly clever technology and wealth and ability to create more and more comforts in our daily lives is being used to the detriment, ultimately, like we're slowly destroying our planet by making ourselves so comfortable. I really wish that Wendell Berry, his sort of White Album, as it were, is a book called the Unsettling of America. And you can actually get the audio version of it read to you in a voice that sounds a lot like this slow talking guy. I really wish that would be. I did. Yeah. Honestly, that may be the peak of my. Of anything I get to do to get to help get his writing to people is a hell of a lot better than anything I could ever come up with. But I wish the Unsettling of America would be required reading for every maybe freshman in high school. And it's just, it's about this. It's simply maintaining awareness, pulling back the veil that all of our wonderful consumerist products have placed over us, where we're too busy giving our hot takes on Instagram to worry about the health of the soil and our livestock and so forth. So it's just paying attention, I think, because when you do, when you pay attention, then you notice the health of your family members, your community members and so forth. You just keep expanding that. And again, it's a bunch of neighbors sharing a piece of land that happens to be a planet.

[Rachel Martin]

We end the show the same way every time you take a trip. In our memory time machine, you pick one moment from your past to revisit. But it's not a moment you change anything about. It's just a moment that you would linger in a little longer.

[Nick Offerman]

Yeah, it's funny, the wheel of life, like all of these things are passing. But I'm going to stop at Grandpa Mike. It occurred to me earlier when I was talking about, I think, the first question, the shed and the shop in the shed at Uncle Dan's. Their dad, my Grandpa Mike.

[Announcer]

He.

[Nick Offerman]

Was the patriarch of that tool tradition that has carried on through the generations in our family. But the memory I'm driving toward is quite simple. It's my Grandpa Mike and Grandma Elle Eloise. They lived in this really nice, humble old farm on Ridge Road on top of a hill. And they had a nice garden out back. And I'd go out there with Grandpa Mike on a break and he would pull up a turnip and he kept a little salt shaker on a little fence post. And he would take his pocket knife and holding the turnip by the greens, he'd peel. He'd pare back the turnip, the purple skin revealing the white, wet, fleshy inside, and sprinkle some salt on it and cut us each a slice. And that was as good of a family moment and a snack as any sausage I've ever come across. And I mean, that was really formative. You can grow a turnip. Most people can grow a turnip and you can share it with your family. But don't forget the soul.

[Rachel Martin]

Nick Offerman's newest book is called Little Woodchucks Offerman Woodshop's Guide to Tools and Tomfoolery. Thank you sir.

[Nick Offerman]

Thank you very much.

[Rachel Martin]

If you like this episode, I would recommend listening to my interview with John Lee Lithgow. He and Nick are both the kind of actors who are just as articulate and insightful off the screen as they are on it. This episode was produced by Lee Hale and edited by Dave Blanchard. It was mastered by Patrick Murray. Wildcard's executive producer is Yolanda Sangweni, and our theme music is by Ramtin Arablouei. We're gonna shuffle the deck and we will be back with more next week. Talk to you then. This message comes from the Council for Interior Design Qualification Interior Designer and CIDQ President Siyavash Madani discusses why Certified professionals know that good design is more than just how something looks.

[Announcer]

Being NCIDQ certified means you've qualified to protect the health, safety and welfare of.

[Nick Offerman]

The public in the spaces that you design. Good design is never just about aesthetics.

[Announcer]

It's about intention, safety and impact.

[Nick Offerman]

So an NCIDQ certified interior designer must.

[Announcer]

Complete a minimum of six years of.

[Nick Offerman]

Specialized education and work experience and pass.

[Announcer]

The three part NCIDQ exam.

[Nick Offerman]

All three exams emphasize and focus on.

[Announcer]

Health, safety and welfare of the occupants.

[Nick Offerman]

Being NCIDQ certified means that you've proven your knowledge and skills through through rigorous.

[Announcer]

Exams and are recognized as a qualified interior design professional.

[Rachel Martin]

Learn [e-mail] NPR this message is sponsored.

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