Raphael Bob-Waksberg doesn’t forgive, but he forgets

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Raphael Bob-Waksberg doesn’t forgive, but he forgets"

Wild Card with Rachel Martin (NPR)
Air Date: September 11, 2025
Guest: Raphael Bob-Waksberg, creator of BoJack Horseman and Long Story Short

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Episode Overview

In this unique and candid episode of Wild Card, Rachel Martin sits down with acclaimed showrunner and writer Raphael Bob-Waksberg for a conversation driven by random prompts from the show’s signature deck of cards. The episode explores Bob-Waksberg’s approach to creativity, grief, faith, parenting, and the tension between remembering and forgiving. The discussion also dives into his latest animated series Long Story Short, examining themes of family, religion, and the complexity of memory—all while maintaining the playful, insightful tone that defines both his work and this podcast.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Growing Up, Imagination, and Comedy

• Boredom and Imagination
  [02:01]

  • Raphael describes being perpetually bored due to ADD, likening it to a superpower:

    "I'm always a little bit bored... like in the Avengers when Mark Ruffalo goes, 'That's my secret. I'm always angry.' I do feel like I have learned to have multiple apps going on in my brain at the same time in any context or conversation. And I have also learned to view it as a positive because it's happening whether I like it or not." (Raphael, 02:01)

  • As a child, Raphael dealt with boredom by turning inward—making comics, inventing songs, or daydreaming—but this occasionally led to trouble at school.

    "I never knew before I did something: is this gonna be funny enough that I'm going to get away with it, or is the teacher going to get real mad at me?" (Raphael, 03:59)

• Formative Memory of Parental Vulnerability
  [05:20]

  • Raphael recalls realizing his mother was "only human" after breaking her glasses and seeing her cry as a child:

    "That's my memory of it is realizing, oh, she is also a person." (Raphael, 06:35)

• Having Adults Who Don’t Talk Down
  [07:41]

  • Raphael credits a high school theater teacher, Mr. Shelby, for genuinely "getting him" and channeling his energy productively—something he strives to model as a parent.

    "He really understood how to... focus my passions and instincts in the right direction and create rather than destroy." (Raphael, 08:24)

  • Raphael shares a joke from his son, showcasing humor and kindness in his parenting:

    "[My son says,] 'No, because you’re my friend, but other people I would interrupt.' So I think he’s a funny guy." (Raphael, 09:42)

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On "Long Story Short", Animation, and Grief

[11:42–17:10]

• Pitching the Show

  • Rachel confesses to "cheating" on her son by watching Long Story Short ahead of him, prompting a discussion about the show's multilayered family and narrative:

    "It's an animated family and they're Jewish and they're religious and it's philosophical and... Isn't that a good TV show?" (Rachel, 12:42) "A lot of what you just said is how I pitched it, except I didn't end with, is that a good TV show?... I probably landed a little more declaratively and with a period." (Raphael, 13:11)

• Narrative Structure

  • The show's unique timeline, with each episode in a different year and POV character:

    "The gag of the show is gonna be jumping around in time and there is no home base... you get to the end of 10 episodes and you feel like you've known them for a lifetime." (Raphael, 13:27)

• Exploring Grief

  • Grief operates as a thematic through-line. Rachel and Raphael discuss whether relationships can change after someone passes and how one continues to learn about lost loved ones:

    "Can your relationship with somebody change after they have died? Or how do you repair some of those relationships that maybe weren't quite what you wanted them to be in life? Is it too late to repair that within yourself, if not with the other person?" (Raphael, 14:49)

• Lightness in Heavy Themes

  • The balance between heavy themes and the lightness of animation, with credit to Raphael’s collaborator Lisa Hanawalt:

    "On that show [BoJack], I could go to these really dark, deep places... and somehow in animation, you're able to take it in a little easier... Actually, the opposite extremes really work together to create something new." (Raphael, 15:42–16:40)

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Insights: Forgiveness, Conflict, and Endings

[18:54–23:23]

• On Forgiveness

  • The episode circles back to forgiveness multiple times. Raphael’s approach is unconventional:

    "People say, 'I forgive, but I don't forget.' I'm the opposite. I don't forgive, but I do forget. So that eventually turns around to forgiveness cause I've stopped fixating on it." (Raphael, 19:38)

• Handling Conflict

  • Raphael admits that his instinct is to "step back" in moments of conflict, often overthinking rather than confronting:

    "I kind of extrapolate all the different ways it could go wrong, and I think I step back in moments of conflict." (Raphael, 20:52)

  • As a boss, conflict is "not really a conflict" due to hierarchical decision-making, but personal conflicts prompt him to linger in indecision while others move on.

• Knowing When to End

  • When asked about endings:

    "I think I'm good at knowing when this line of conversation should end. And I think we've reached the end..." (Raphael, 23:04)

  • This meta humor punctuates the show's playfulness.

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Beliefs: God, Religion, and Community

[25:15–30:13]

• Evolution of Belief

  • Raphael describes gradually moving from being a believer in childhood to agnostic or atheist in adulthood:

    "When I was a kid, I believed in God. I don't now." (Raphael, 25:44)

  • He distinguishes his Jewish upbringing from Christian-centric faith structures—emphasizing community, tradition, and culture over individual belief:

    "A lot of the ways we talk about religion in our society is kind of viewed through a Christian lens. And I think... faith is very much an important facet... that was never in my experience, a real tenet of Judaism." (Raphael, 26:02)

• Religion as Connection

  • Continuing rituals as a way to connect with lost loved ones:

    "I do these things... I remember them. Rituals, yes. I light the candles, I eat the challah... And it feels like I am part of a thread, and that continues through my children..." (Raphael, 29:51)

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Grief, Memory, and Creative Process

[30:46–37:11]

• Portraying Grief in Storytelling

  • Citing a storyline from Long Story Short:

    "There's a line about grief on the show... 'it isn't a straight line.' And I think that has been so much of what I have had to grapple with through my experiences with grief..." (Raphael, 32:08)

• On “Living a Good Life”

  • The central, unanswerable question motivating his work:

    "If I knew the answer, I wouldn't have to write anymore... I think it boils down to being kind to people... to leave this place a little better than where you found it." (Raphael, 34:09-35:03)

  • His advice to his own child:

    "Be kind and curious and brave. And I think those are... a good first step." (Raphael, 35:12)

• Lingering in the Present

  • Asked about a moment he'd relive, Raphael resists nostalgia:

    "I feel like it's hard for me to want to be in any moment other than where I'm at right now... I'd rather have the memory. I'd rather live now in the present with the memories of all that I've experienced." (Raphael, 36:06-37:11)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On his creative “superpower”:

  "I'm always a little bit bored." (Raphael, 02:01)

• On forgiveness:

  "I don't forgive, but I do forget. So that eventually turns around to forgiveness because I've stopped fixating on it." (Raphael, 19:38)

• On religious identity:

  "I think what I hold dear in my own religious practice is the cultural aspect of it." (Raphael, 29:00)

• On grief not being linear:

  "It isn't a straight line. And I think that has been so much of what I have had to grapple with through my experiences with grief..." (Raphael, 32:08)

• On living a good life:

  "It boils down to being kind to people... holding the door open for the people who come after you." (Raphael, 35:03)

• On being present:

  "I'd rather live now in the present with the memories of all that I've experienced." (Raphael, 36:41)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:01 — Boredom, ADD, and creative imagination
• 06:35 — Childhood memory: realizing parents are human
• 07:41 — Theater teacher’s influence
• 11:42 — Discussion of Long Story Short
• 14:49 — Exploring grief in the show
• 19:38 — Approach to forgiveness
• 20:52 — Handling conflict
• 23:04 — Knowing when to end things
• 25:44 — Evolving beliefs about God and religion
• 29:51 — Rituals as connection to lost loved ones
• 32:08 — Grief as a nonlinear process
• 34:09 — "What does it mean to live a good life?"
• 36:41 — Reflections on choosing the present

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Overall Tone & Style

The conversation is warm, self-deprecating, and humorously reflective—much like Raphael Bob-Waksberg’s body of work. The back-and-forth is playful, sometimes irreverent, but always grounded in authentic inquiry about what it means to live, remember, grieve, and create with meaning. The “Wild Card” format encourages spontaneous, often vulnerable, philosophical dialogue.

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Recommendation:
Listeners interested in creativity, memory, family, and the intersection of humor and existential inquiry will find this episode both relatable and thought-provoking. Fans of BoJack Horseman or those curious about how animated storytelling can tackle profound human themes will particularly enjoy Bob-Waksberg’s candor and insights.

Transcript

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[Rachel Martin]

Are you good at forgiveness?

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Yes, I think I am.

[Rachel Martin]

New card? No, I'm just kidding.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

I think I am. No, I don't know if there's more to say there. You know, people say like, I forgive, but I don't. For I don't forgive, but I do forget. So that eventually turns around to forgiveness because I've stopped fixating on it.

[Rachel Martin]

I'm Rachel Martin, and this is Wild Card, the show where cards control the conversation. Each week, my guest answers questions about their life, questions pulled from a deck of cards. They're allowed to skip one question and to flip one question back on me. My guest this week is Raphael Bob Waksberg.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

There's a line about grief on the show where one of the characters says to the other, it isn't a straight line. And I think that has been so much of what I have had to grapple with through my experiences with grief.

[Rachel Martin]

Raphael Bob Waksberg makes animated TV shows that are weird and they are funny and deep, which happen to be three of my favorite qualities in any form of entertainment. His first series, BoJack Horseman, was about a half man, half horse in an existential crisis. Now he is back with a brand new show called Long Story Short. There are big themes, religion and identity and grief, but it never feels heavy. And the end result is an animated story that feels very real. I am so happy to welcome Raphael Bob Waksberg to Wildcard. Hi.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Hi. It's great to be here.

[Rachel Martin]

I'm so happy to have you here.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

What a treat.

[Rachel Martin]

First three cards, memories. One, two, or three?

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

I'm going to go with three.

[Rachel Martin]

Three.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Yeah, let's skip to the good stuff.

[Rachel Martin]

Three it is. When you were bored as a kid, where would your imagination take you?

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Oh, everywhere. I mean, you say when I was bored as if there were times when I was not bored. But I had ADD as a kid and I still have it as an adult. And I do feel like one of my superpowers is I'm always a little bit bored, like, you know, in the Avengers. Well, I'll tell you why. When Mark Ruffalo goes, that's my secret. I'm always angry and he can, like, turn into a Hulk at any moment. I do feel like I have learned to have multiple apps going on in my brain at the same time in any context or conversation. And I have also learned to view it as a positive because it's happening whether I like it or not.

[Rachel Martin]

Right.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

And so I call it a superpower. But, yeah, as a kid, I think I had to learn at some point in order to not be disruptive, which was always my first instinct was, when I am bored, I am going to interrupt what is ever happening because it's boring, clearly.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Yeah, this is boring.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

But eventually I learned how to kind of focus that inward, and instead of making it everyone else's problem that I'm bored, find ways to occupy myself. So I would. Yeah, I used to draw little comics in class, or I would make up little songs to myself, think about the other things I was going to do that day. I feel like I'm never 100% giving attention to the thing that I'm in at any given moment. Always part of me is thinking about something else.

[Rachel Martin]

So did you get in trouble a lot?

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Yes. Constantly.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. Because of that?

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Well, sure, because of a number of things, I think. You know what? I think I didn't always know the best way to filter those instincts. And then I think some teachers didn't always know the best way to handle me. And I think a big part of it is I was funny sometimes. And what that meant is that sometimes I could get away with things, but sometimes I would push things too far, or I would do things in the wrong way where they're not funny. And I never knew before I did something. Is this gonna be funny enough that I'm going to get away with it, or is the teacher going to get real mad at me? And so I was always mystified when I got in trouble. Like, how is this any different? And I think the answer is, I just. That time I didn't kill. I just. I wasn't funny enough. And that's something you got to learn. You got to read the room, man.

[Rachel Martin]

So it was like an internal motivator. Yeah. You need to hone your material.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Yeah. But I had no. You know, this was my audience. You know, when you're a comic, you go to open mic nights. When you're a kid, you go to your class and. All right, not everything's going to land right away. Sometimes you got to try some stuff out. Now I know. All right, don't do that again.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay. Three more cards. 1, 2, 3.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Let's do one this time.

[Rachel Martin]

1. What's an experience from childhood when you realized your parents were only human?

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

This is actually one of My first memories, I think I was maybe two or three, at least two and a half, because my little sister was born already. She was a baby, and I was a toddler. And I remember I was climbing on my mother. She was sitting down, like, in the stairwell, and I was climbing on her. And I think my little sister was also climbing on her or just being a baby or something. And I grabbed my mom's glasses and her glasses broke and she started crying.

[Rachel Martin]

Ah. Yeah. I mean, I was the parent of two very small children. And I remember it didn't matter what it was going to be, but everything is building. Everything is building to this moment of breakdown. And like, the one thing that happens, like, your glasses break or like some other little thing happens and just floodgates. You're just like, I can't even anymore. Yeah. And so you were so young, but even in that moment, you think you were like, oh, this lady has feelings.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

I might be backwards editorializing a little bit, but that's my memory of it is realizing, oh, she is also a person.

[Rachel Martin]

That's right.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Didn't want me climbing on her in that moment. That was not helpful.

[Rachel Martin]

Right. And a thing happened, and now she's crying and I am somewhat involved in. I bear some responsibility. Yes. Has she told you about that? Like, was she really mad at you?

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

I don't know if she ruined her.

[Rachel Martin]

You guys haven't discussed.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

We have not discussed it. Maybe she'll listen to this and she'll.

[Rachel Martin]

Call me the great glasses.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

I'm still mad at you.

[Rachel Martin]

Scandal.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Thank you for acknowledging my pain.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay, next one. Three more cards. One, two or three?

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

I feel like I gotta go two now. I mean, three and one.

[Rachel Martin]

There are no rules. Except there are, but this isn't one of them. So you can do whatever you want.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

What if I was like, four? Let's do two.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay. Who's an adult who didn't talk down to you as a kid?

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Yeah. I had a theater teacher in high school named Mr. Shelby, Jim Shelby. And he is a special guy, and I think he really got me. And I think the joy of being his student is. I think most of his students felt like he got them right. So I don't think we had a special relationship. I think he made all of his young actors feel special in some way. Now that I'm saying that, I'm like, is that true? All of his students? No, I'm sure there are students. Actually, I know some students who didn't like him or didn't feel like they quite got what he was doing.

[Rachel Martin]

But you felt that he got you.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

And I felt like he got me.

[Rachel Martin]

He felt clearly in you.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Yes, Yes. I don't want to over universalize it. I shouldn't compliment him too much. No, I think he really got me and he really understood how to, you know, focus my passions and instincts in the right direction and create rather than destroy.

[Rachel Martin]

Has the trickle down effect of having a teacher understand you, not talk down to you? Has that affected your parenting style at all? You've got young kids.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Yes, I think so. I mean, I try to treat my kids like they're people. I try to be kind to them and listen to them and not necessarily assume that I know the right way for them to be or what they should be doing at any given moment. I try to give them autonomy and be respectful.

[Rachel Martin]

Have any of them proven to be funny and or performative?

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Oh yeah, my kids are hilarious. You want to hear a joke?

[Rachel Martin]

Yes, of course I want to hear a joke. Yeah.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

All right. This is hot off the press. This is a couple weeks ago, my kid told me this joke. He goes, knock, knock, who's there? Interrupting cow.

[Rachel Martin]

Interrupting cow who?

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Mo. And I said, I hate to break this to you. You didn't interrupt me. And he goes, no, because you're my friend, but other people I would interrupt. Aw. So I think he's a funny guy.

[Rachel Martin]

He is a funny guy and deeply thoughtful and kind.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Yes, yes. And I'm glad to know I'm his friend. That meant a lot to foreign this.

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[Rachel Martin]

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[Rachel Martin]

Okay, so let's talk about the new show. Long story short, I started watching this with my 13 year old, who was immediately drawn in. And then I had to move on with my life and do something else in that moment. And we made a pledge, as people and families often do, to not watch it except with one another, because we both loved it so much.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

That's dangerous.

[Rachel Martin]

I totally cheated on him. I totally cheated on him. I was the cheater. I was on the treadmill one day and I was like, oh, Wyatt won't know. And I just. I'll just tell him that I didn't. I'll rewatch this one with him. But then I just. I just. I just binged.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Oh, no, not in that moment.

[Rachel Martin]

But I did watch all of them. I watched all of them without him.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Well, but what happened with your son?

[Rachel Martin]

I mean, he's not talking to me right now. No, I'm just kidding. He was bummed, but also I was like, go talk to your dad. I'm famous for this. I'm sorry, I don't know what to tell you.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Classic. Classic.

[Rachel Martin]

You don't trust me on this one, but the point of the story is that both of us really, really loved it. It's so, so, so good. My question. There is a question is how did you pitch this to the studio folks? Because it's not. I mean, it's like an animated family and they're Jewish and they're religious and it's philosophical and Isn't that a good TV show? I don't know. They clearly thought it was.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Yeah, well, I mean, a lot of what you just said is how I pitched it, except I didn't end with, is that a good TV show? I think I probably landed a little more declaratively and with a period.

[Rachel Martin]

Yes, that's right.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Here's the twist. It's good.

[NPR Sponsor Announcer]

Yeah.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

You know, I said, this is a show about a family and we're gonna love all these characters, but the kind of. The gag of the show is gonna be jumping around in time and there is no home base. So every episode is set in a different year with a different character as our POV character. And kind of through this method, we really get to know this family really well over the course of one season. So you get to the end of 10 episodes and you feel like you've known them for a lifetime and. And you're gonna love them like you've seen a hundred episodes of the show, or you're gonna love them like they're your own family. That was the elevator pitch, I guess.

[Rachel Martin]

Was the starting point the family and the characters, or was the starting pitch you're like, I wanna play in time. I wanna do this. No home base. We're going front and back.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Yeah. I think for me, it kind of came from a lot of different places, then gradually weave together. When I look back at what is the history of the original germ of this idea. It probably started with, is there a story I could tell that jumps around in time, that is longitudinal in its scope, that follows characters over a long period and sees how they grow and change, or don't change and don't grow, as the case may be.

[Rachel Martin]

And grief is, like, woven through this show. I mean, it's very, very funny. But grief is like a through line.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Yes. That hilarious thing, grief.

[Rachel Martin]

It's so funny.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

And I think a big question question in the show also is, can your relationship with somebody change after they have died? Or how do you repair some of those relationships that maybe weren't quite what you wanted them to be in life? Is it too late to repair that within yourself, if not with the other person?

[Rachel Martin]

Right.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

And how do you continue to learn things and understand things about that relationship, about that person and about yourself in that relationship, even after that person has died? In a hilarious way, of course. Yes. With jokes.

[Rachel Martin]

I need to give a shout out to your longtime collaborator, Lisa Hanawalt, who has come up with the visual world for this, for BoJack Horseman, for several other of your projects. I meant what I said in the intro. These themes could be overbearing and, like, too heavy. And there's something about the lightness of the animation. Yes.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

And so I think Lisa's art, as well as Alison dubois, who works with Lysa, they do an incredible job of. Yeah. Lightening up the world. And that's very intentional. I think that's something I really Learned working on BoJack Horseman, is that on that show, I could go to these really dark, deep places. And in a live action show, some of those monologues might have felt indulgent or saccharine or maudlin. And somehow in animation, you're able to take it in a little easier. Or maybe because you already are bringing the suspension of disbelief to the show, you can also have the suspension of Disbelief in how tragic it got or how ruminative. You could really let it take you where it wanted to take you. And so that what I might have thought before I made BoJack is like, well, you can't be too goofy or too sad, and you gotta kinda pick a lane. And in making that show, I found that, no, actually, the opposite extremes really work together to create something new. And I think on this show also, you know, it doesn't get quite as Shakespeareanly tragic as BoJack did, nor does it get as silly and cartoony as BoJack did. But we do go to some goofy places and some more serious places, and I find the way those flavors work together, it really creates a feast.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

For the listener. These are a different color.

[Rachel Martin]

They sure are. What color are they, Raphael?

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

They're blue.

[Rachel Martin]

That's right. They're blue.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

I'm glad I know that, because now I can fly a plane. If I got it wrong, I would not be. Well, that's the first step.

[Rachel Martin]

As far as I know, these cards are blue, and they represent the round. Insights.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Insights.

[Rachel Martin]

Three cards.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Three new cards. Can I tell you. Sorry to interrupt. I was thinking about being colorblind. Can I tell you a joke that I always wanted to do on BoJack that we never got to do?

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, please.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

So one of the characters on BoJack Horseman is Mr. Peanutbutter, who is a dog. And at one point, we were going to do a beat where he realizes for the first time that he's colorblind because he's a dog. And what he was going to say was, oh, no, I'm colorblind. Now, I can never fly an airplane or appreciate the subtle beauty of Schindler's List, which I thought would be a funny thing.

[Rachel Martin]

But why? Why did you cut that joke?

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Well, because we cut the whole story point.

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, shoot.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

We didn't have. We cut the whole thing about him realizing, but just didn't. No, part of that story is in the episode. We cut jokes out of every episode. I mean, on the new show also, we write long, and then in editing, we tighten and tighten and tighten and tighten.

[Rachel Martin]

And there's these little beauties on the floor, and you have to revive them in podcast interviews to like, I.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Was waiting for this exact moment to. So your listener might be wondering, does he still have add? And the answer is, yes, I do.

[Rachel Martin]

I don't know.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Yeah, we'll see. All right, blue cards. Let's take a look.

[Rachel Martin]

One, two, or three?

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Oh, I already did. One, two, and three. Now I gotta double Back. Let's go back to one.

[Rachel Martin]

Number one.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

I've chosen number one.

[Rachel Martin]

Are you good at forgiveness?

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Yes, I think I am.

[Rachel Martin]

New card? No. I'm just kidding.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

I think I am. No, I don't know if there's more to say there. Yeah, I think.

[Rachel Martin]

Well, I'm gonna ask you more about it.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

I think it's something I've worked on. I think, in the past, I have held the grudge.

[Rachel Martin]

How'd that work out?

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Not great. I don't love it. Holding a grudge. It doesn't benefit me or the person. I think actually what I've gotten good at is deciding I'm gonna hold a grudge and then forgetting to. So, you know, people say, like, I forgive, but I don't forget. I'm the opposite. I don't forgive, but I do forget. So that eventually turns around to forgiveness. Cause I've stopped fixating on it.

[Rachel Martin]

You, like, run into the person at a party or something, and you start chatting. You're like, damn it, I was going to ignore you.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

I was mad at that person.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

No, I really. I. I think I am very understanding. Am I very understanding? I think I'm a regular amount of understanding that we are all humans and we make mistakes, and sometimes we get in our own way or the ways of other people.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. Okay. Three more cards. More?

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Yes. All right.

[Rachel Martin]

One, two or three?

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Let's do three.

[Rachel Martin]

In moments of conflict, do you step in or step back?

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Oh, back.

[Rachel Martin]

Back.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

You're not like a. I don't know.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

If we need to get into this. I don't know. I don't know about this. You're getting pretty aggressive right now.

[Rachel Martin]

You're not. Let me solve this. I hear you saying this. I hear you saying this. Let's come together. You retreat.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

No, because I overthink. I think I kind of extrapolate all the different ways it could go wrong, and I think I step back in moments of conflict. I think that's my instinct.

[Rachel Martin]

I'm sure it happens to you. I mean, you're the boss of a lot of people, and it's a creative pursuit. And I'm sure there are differences of opinion, and people are people, and so there's going to be a lot of.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Yeah, people.

[Rachel Martin]

Conflicts.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Well, that's what's. I mean, what's nice about being the boss is there's a hierarchy there. And so it's not really a conflict. Because I can say, no, I want to do it this way now, or. Or that guy's right. That. That Guy's wrong.

[Rachel Martin]

So, you know, de facto you have to step in because you are.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Yeah, well, I wouldn't call that stepping in.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Because that's like, Right, Like. Yeah, I'd see, I'd be like, similar to my don't forgive but forget approach. I think that's how I deal with conflict too. Of like, oh, this feels really sticky. Let me. Let me work through all the different, you know, myriad possible ways this could go. And then by the time I'm done working through it, everyone else has moved on.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay, last one in this round. One, two or three?

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

I'll do. I've lost track. I'll do two, I think this time.

[Rachel Martin]

Are you good at knowing when something should end?

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

I don't know. Am I? I feel like. I feel like we are reaching the perimeter of my own self knowledge here. I'm not quite sure.

[Rachel Martin]

Fair enough. You could skip it.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Am I? No, I want to.

[Rachel Martin]

You want to engage?

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Okay, I want to engage. I don't know if I have a good or interesting answer to it. I mean, I guess the yes or no question. So I could just say yes or no and leave it at that.

[Rachel Martin]

But I won't let you. I mean, that's the other thing.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

I could. And you have no. There's no method by which you could stop me.

[Rachel Martin]

It's true.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

The rules don't account for that.

[Rachel Martin]

It's true.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Am I good at knowing? What was the question? Could you tell me again?

[Rachel Martin]

Are you good at knowing when things should end? I mean, that can be in your actual life or that can be in storytelling.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Yeah, I think I'm good at knowing when this line of conversation should end. And I think we've reached the end of its. How much interestingness we're gonna milk out of me pondering this? So I'm gonna say, yes, I'm good, and that should end now.

[Rachel Martin]

I'm trying to decide if I'm gonna accept that or if I'm going to.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Ask judges, will we allow it?

[Rachel Martin]

Fine.

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[Rachel Martin]

For me, sometimes I just need to go and talk to somebody that is not gonna judge me. Right. Is gonna be there and gonna listen to me. And I can't start just saying, look, I'm not feeling right today.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

And it feels natural. I love it.

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[Rachel Martin]

We've arrived at the last round of this experience.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Okay.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

So it sounds like you are good at knowing when things should end.

[Rachel Martin]

I really am. And now we're getting close.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

We're done. We're wrapping it up. Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay. One, two or three?

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

What's the category now?

[Rachel Martin]

Beliefs.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Beliefs. Okay. I believe I will take number three.

[Rachel Martin]

How have your feelings about God changed over time?

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

They haven't changed in a while, but when I was a kid, I believed in God. I don't now.

[Rachel Martin]

Is that the one inflection point?

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Well, I'd say it was a gradual inflection point.

[Rachel Martin]

Your family was religious?

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Yes, but not in a faith based way like, you know, I never experienced. I mean, this is, this is the one. You know, one of the things I wanted to show with, with my show, which is about a Jewish family, is I feel like a lot of the ways we talk about religious religion in our society is kind of viewed through a Christian lens. And I think, you know, mainline Christianity, faith is, is very much an important facet of it. And there's, there's a lot of, you know, kind of emphasis on do you believe or do you have doubt or what does it mean to believe? And can you be a, a good religious person if you don't believe? And what is the point if you, if you don't believe? And I feel like that was never in my experience, a real tenet of Judaism. I mean, I think there are people who believe in God, but I don't think that's the most important thing or what makes somebody a religious person. And so it was not pounded into me that like, God is real and, you know, you have to believe in him or this is all going to fall apart.

[Rachel Martin]

So if it Wasn't God then? What? What?

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Well, but it was. But, I mean, but God was still kind of in the fabric of all of it. I mean, we told these stories about God. It was never explicitly stated to me. Like, these are just stories. Don't, you know, chill, chill out about it. And so it did take kind of my own exploration. And I think it was very much, you know, on me to decide for myself what I believed and didn't believe. And then for a while, I didn't identify as an atheist either, because I found atheists very annoying online.

[Rachel Martin]

Just the certainty of it all.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Yeah. Or just that, like, again, it's like, it's this combining of faith with religion in a way that I felt really didn't apply to me. So I think what I saw from atheism was kind of this reaction to religion. But when they were saying religion, even though they said it's about all religion, it really meant focused on a kind of religiosity that I never belonged to in the first place. And so it didn't speak to me. I think, like Jews, there are a whole bunch of different kinds of atheists who go about things in all kinds of ways.

[Rachel Martin]

So could you find just another brand of atheism or at different sections?

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Maybe I'm reform atheist and not orthodox atheist. Maybe that's, you know, if I could find a good atheist shoal, that's probably where I'd want to go. No, because again, like, these kind of. These conversations around theology were never very interesting to me personally, and they didn't kind of get to the heart of what was interesting to me about religion.

[Rachel Martin]

But religion is interesting to you?

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

I think so. But it was.

[Rachel Martin]

I mean, we made a whole show about. Of family and how it's reckoning with.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

But so for me, I think what's interesting about religion, and again, this is kind of the Judaism that I grew up with that I practice is it's about community, it's about history, tradition, it's about family, perhaps a little bit of morality that's probably in there somewhere, too. But it's not central. Not central? No. I think it's culture more than it is anything else. And that, I think is what I hold dear in my own religious practice is the cultural aspect of it.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay, next three questions. One, two or three.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

All right, we'll do question one this time.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay. When do you feel connected to people you've lost?

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Well, so again, I think. I think religion is one way I stay connected. I think, you know, I do these things that you know, I don't necessarily believe that they can see me or that there's a God who can see me doing these things, but I do these things, and I remember them.

[Rachel Martin]

Rituals.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Rituals, yes. I light the candles, I eat the challah. I look for the chametz before Passover. I do these things that I shared with the people that I love or that I know they did long before I was born, and it connects me to them, and it feels like I am part of a thread, and that continues through my children, and I do them with my children, and I remember the people that I've lost.

[Rachel Martin]

Mm. I loved the episode in the new show where the family, the Hoopers, are grieving because their mom has died, the matriarch of the family. And grief is so complicated. Right. Everyone has a different way that feels very urgent in the moment of how to mark this moment. And Avi, the older brother, sees this pin that used to be his mom's, and it's gonna be hard to get back, but he's obsessed with getting this pin back, and I so related to that. And also the rest of his family. It's like, forget that. Let's just go be together with our other brother who's miles away. Let's go find him. Let's just hang out together and have Shabbat service. And that's what mom would want. And it is illustrative of the value of those rituals, the being together, but also how wild grief can be and how something that from the outside or in hindsight can seem so random or inconsequential. And in grief, it can be the only thing. The only thing that matters is getting this brooch back. And nothing else will satisfy my particular longing for this person in this moment.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Well, there's a line about grief on the show in a different episode where one of the characters says to the other, it isn't a straight line. And I think that has been so much of what I have had to grapple with through my experiences with grief that you can't just read the Idiot's Guide to and expect you're going to hit all the steps in the right order and then you'll be done with it, that it does kind of double back and bubble up in surprising ways and make you into an irrational person sometimes. And that's okay. That's part of it. I think through that irrationality, we also remember and we grieve. And I think that grief is that connection.

[Rachel Martin]

But I love that about that family because so often it can be attention in Families like, this person's not grieving the right way and this person's doing something that. It doesn't make sense to me at all, and they're leaving us behind. And it just felt like you created. You teased out those differences, and in the end, everybody still is accepting of all the different manifestations of people's grief as well.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Done. That's right.

[Rachel Martin]

Was there a particular loss that you leaned on to write that, that storyline?

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

No, I wouldn't say there was one.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. So we are one question away from being at the end.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

What if I skip this one? That would be a pretty anticlimactic one. It's like, ah, skip.

[Rachel Martin]

Done.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

See you later. I'm like, I got it. The pressure's on. I gotta answer this one. Especially now that I'm saying out loud that I gotta answer it now. It's gonna be even more disappointing if I don't. Right.

[Rachel Martin]

One, two, or three.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Let's do three for the finale. Let's go big.

[Rachel Martin]

What does it mean to live a good life?

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

I don't know.

[Rachel Martin]

I don't know. Scene.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

I mean, does anyone.

[Rachel Martin]

I mean, I think I'm not gonna let you get away with that one. There's inherent in your work.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Yeah. I think this is the question that I am struggling with through all my work. I think if I knew the answer, I wouldn't have to write anymore. I'd. I would go live my good life. But I think, you know, I think it boils down to being kind to people. Like when you go hiking through the woods to. To. To leave this place a little better than where you found it. I think it's about holding the door open for the people who come after you. I think it's, as I said, to be kind. I mean, I think that's what it boils down to. Kind and righteous. I think just speak out against injustices. I think to do what you can to make the world better. And I think it is hard because we don't always know how to do that.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

But I think that's what. I think that's what living a good life is.

[Rachel Martin]

The triangle.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

You know, I. I've. One of the one thing I've. I say to my kid when I drop them off at school in the morning is I say, you know, today I want you to be kind and curious and brave. And I think those are, you know, you could replace those three adjectives with anything else but those. I think if you try in your life to be kind and curious and brave, I think that's a good first step.

[Rachel Martin]

We end the show the same way every time with a trip in our memory time machine. Okay, so this is it. You just pick one moment from your past. It is not a moment you would change anything about. It's just a moment in which you would like to linger a little longer. Which moment do you choose?

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

I mean, this maybe is a cliche answer, but I feel like it's hard for me to want to be in any moment other than where I'm at right now. Like the vast accumulation of my experiences. And anytime, if I were to think about going back to another moment in the past, then I'd have to think, well, that means that this hasn't happened yet, or that I haven't gotten to experience the joy of that or the heartbreak of that. And so I feel like this is a dodge because I understand what you're asking, but I feel.

[Rachel Martin]

No, but I think this is an interesting answer.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

I don't want to go back and re experience other moments because I think I would want to change things. I think even the moments that I'm remembering with the rosiest of glasses, if I were to actually experience them, I'd go, oh, this isn't quite as nice as I remembered. Or like, oh, I might want to fix that or change that. And so I. I'd rather have the memory. I'd rather live now in the present with the memories of all that I've experienced.

[Rachel Martin]

Does that mean that right now is where you want to be with me at this moment?

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

There's nowhere else I'd rather be right now or know when else. This is the time. This is the place.

[Rachel Martin]

But I do think that's an interesting answer from a person who made a show about memory and how it also changes when you look back. Back at it.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

You know what? I'm an interesting guy.

[Rachel Martin]

It turns out.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

It turns out. How about that.

[Rachel Martin]

Raphael Bob Waxburg. His new show is called Long Story Short. It's on Netflix right now. It's been a pleasure. Thank you for doing this.

[Raphael Bob Waksberg]

Thank you.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay, so now that we're at the end of this episode, could I ask you to do us a huge favor and go rate and review our show? We would so appreciate it. It's really easy and it's a super helpful way to support Wildcard by getting more people to find it. I would specifically like to thank C3 anchored, who wrote the following. I look forward to every episode of this podcast. I always try to answer the questions along with the guests and think about how to have these conversations with others. I take a trip every time in the memory time machine to linger a little longer with my husband on a sailboat in the Caribbean, a magical time I cherish, especially since he passed away. Thank you so much for that note. It means a lot that you were willing to share that memory with us. To everyone else, please share what you like about our show by rating or reviewing it in your podcast app. Do It Now. Today's episode was produced by Lee Hale and edited by Dave Blanchard. It was mastered by Patrick Moore and Jimmy Keeley. Wildcard's executive producer is Yolanda Sangweni and our theme music is by the one and only Ramtin Arablouei. As always, you can reach out to [e-mail] we love hearing from you, truly. Write us. We'll shuffle the deck and be back with more next week. Talk to you then.

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