Shonda Rhimes on why “it’s never been important to me what other people think”

Summary

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Wild Card with Rachel Martin

Guest: Shonda Rhimes
Episode: "Why It's Never Been Important to Me What Other People Think"
Date: October 23, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this engaging episode of Wild Card, Rachel Martin sits down with acclaimed television writer and producer Shonda Rhimes. Through Rachel's signature card-pull format, the conversation explores Shonda's approach to validation, creativity, personal growth, and parenting. Shonda opens up about her introversion, the origins of her creative drive, the evolution she experienced since her "Year of Yes," and how she learned not to seek outside validation. The episode is rich with candid reflections, memorable stories from Rhimes' childhood, and actionable wisdom about boundaries, mentorship, and living authentically.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

On Validation and Self-Worth

• Shonda's Detachment from External Validation
  • "It's never been important to me what other people think. I can't waste my time and energy caring about other people's validation." (00:23, 22:45)
  • Shonda explains the liberating realization that when you embrace the good things people say, you're also tied to their negative feedback—which she refuses to do.
  • She credits her parents for instilling deep self-worth:
    • "My father was a guy who was always saying, the only limit to your success is your own imagination. And my mother ... was my secret advance man, moving through the world, knocking obstacles out of my path." (24:39)

Childhood Memories and Creative Imagination

• Discovering Beauty Through Poetry
  • Shonda recalls her father reciting Walt Whitman and the transformative moment when she could "stand inside the poem." (02:16–04:19)
    • "I suddenly understood the power of words and what they could evoke inside you." (04:19)
• The Pantry Sanctuary
  • Shonda describes finding safety and imagination in her family's pantry, inventing kingdoms with canned goods as characters. (04:44–05:38)
    • "For me, it was this wonderful sanctuary of space where sort of the world was mine." (05:38)
• Teenage Soundtrack and Identity
  • Madonna, Duran Duran, Level 42 formed the soundscape of her adolescence. Shonda reflects on feeling hopeful and vibrant, listening in her room and taping songs off the radio. (07:32–09:29)
    • "I was sure that the world was gonna turn out okay for me..." (08:20)

The Year of Yes and Personal Transformation

• Recognizing the Comfort of ‘No’

  • Shonda admits to living vicariously through her characters while keeping her own life small. It took her sister’s bluntness to realize she never said yes to opportunity. (11:52–13:19)
    • "My characters had really big, glorious lives, and I was doing nothing except for writing those lives." (11:52)

• Conquering Fear Through Action

  • "The very act of doing the thing that scares you undoes the fear." (13:47)
  • She emphasizes the anxiety of facing new experiences, but also its crucial role in dismantling self-imposed limitations.

• Friendships and Boundaries

  • As she grew, Shonda found that some friends couldn't accept her happiness:
    • "There are friends who are amazing if you're miserable... those same people are not comfortable with you being happy." (15:07–15:49)

• Rejecting Expected Narratives

  • On ending an engagement:
    • "When I was a kid, I imagined having a ton of kids, I never imagined a husband." (16:01)
    • She was bewildered by how society values marriage above other achievements:
      "People treated the fact that a man wanted to marry me like the biggest celebration in the world. More than when I had my kids, more than when I won a Peabody..." (16:46)

Rethinking Mentorship

• Challenging the Mentor Myth
  • Rhimes underscores that waiting for a mentor can be limiting:
    • "You can be your own best mentor. But waiting for permission for somebody to say ... you're gonna be great, is a terrible idea. Cause you're waiting for somebody else to start your life." (19:29–20:29)
  • Rhimes found her ‘mentors’ in memoirs and autobiographies such as Michelle Obama's "Becoming" and Andre Agassi's "Open." (20:32)

On Creativity and Feeling Free

• The Writing Process
  • Shonda describes writing as the ultimate freedom—she can write anywhere with headphones and the right music. (29:18–30:43)
    • "It's that feeling and it's... the best feeling in the world. It's almost like a runner's high. But it's where my brain lives and feels most comfortable." (30:37)
  • She finds joy in inventing worlds and establishing her own rules.

Parenting and Modeling Confidence

• Passing on Self-Worth

  • Rhimes strives to instill the same sense of value in her daughters:
    • "I want my girls to know that they're powerful people, that ... other people's judgments about them are not as important as how they judge themselves." (25:38)

• "Fitting Out"

  • Her daughter Becky takes pride in "fitting out," embracing individuality—a family mantra Rachel requests to borrow. (26:34–27:14)

Reflections and Hopes for the Future

• Looking Forward
  • Shonda anticipates watching her children grow and becoming a grandmother. She hopes for leisure—writing for herself, outside the demands of television. (31:36–33:15)
    • "There's going to be a time when I just want to live on a farm somewhere and write whatever I feel like writing..." (31:45)

Universal Experience Shonda Would Grant

• Promoting Curiosity Over Division
  • "I wish I could give every person the opportunity and the ability to understand that just because someone's different from you, that doesn't mean that their differences make them unknowable to you." (33:34)

Memorable Moments & Quotes

• On Not Taking Validation Personally:
  • "When you believe the good things people say about you, you also then are obligated to believe the bad things." (22:45, 23:59)
• On Mentorship:
  • "Those books became my mentors." (19:29)
• On Creative Fulfillment:
  • "You feel like you could fly forever... it's the best feeling in the world." (01:00, 30:37)

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Timestamps for Notable Segments

• Validation and Criticism: 00:23, 22:45
• Childhood Beauty & Poetry: 02:16–04:19
• The Pantry & Imagination: 04:44–05:38
• Year of Yes Origin Story: 11:52–13:19
• Overcoming Stage Fright: 13:47
• On Losing Friendships Due to Growth: 15:07–15:49
• Mentorship Perspective: 19:11–20:29
• Writing as Freedom: 29:18–30:43
• "Fitting Out" and Individuality: 26:34–27:14
• What She’d Give the World: 33:34
• Memory Time Machine – Bringing Children Home: 34:48–36:09

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Tone and Takeaways

The conversation balances warmth, vulnerability, and wisdom. Rhimes offers honest, occasionally humorous reflections, maintaining a tone that is direct yet compassionate. Her focus on authenticity, self-reliance, and curiosity—and her candid revelations about anxiety, introversion, and the cost of growth—make for both a grounding and inspiring listen.

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For deeper context, listen to Shonda Rhimes and Rachel Martin riff on everything from Level 42, to writing as a runner’s high, to why ‘fitting out’ is more meaningful than fitting in.

Transcript

[Rachel Martin]

Support for this podcast and the following message come from Dignity Memorial. For many families, remembering loved ones means honoring the details that made them unique. Dignity Memorial is dedicated to professionalism and compassion. In every detail of a life celebration, find a provider near [e-mail] how much do you rely on the validation of others?

[Shonda Rhimes]

I don't. It's never been important to me what other people think. I can't waste my time and energy caring about other people's validation. And also, when you believe the good things people say about you, you also then are obligated to believe the bad things.

[Rachel Martin]

I'm Rachel Martin, and this is Wildcard, the show where cards control the conversation. Each week, my guest answers questions about their life. Questions pulled from a deck of cards. They're allowed to skip one question and to flip one question back on me. My guest this week is Shonda Rhimes.

[Shonda Rhimes]

I can sort of sink into that creative writing space where the world sort of fades away around me and I don't know, it's that feeling like you feel like you could fly forever.

[Rachel Martin]

It is one thing to create massively successful shows like Grey's Anatomy and Scandal. It is quite another to create characters, stories, and language that change culture. Shonda Rhimes built shows with diverse casts and strong women at the center, which honestly was rare 20 years ago when Grey's first came out. And the character she created in Dr. Christina Yang became an avatar for every woman who has ever wanted to cast off self doubt and live in her own power, which is what Shonda Rhimes eventually learned to do herself. She wrote about her own journey in a memoir called Year of Yes, which is being re released to mark 10 years since the book first came out. It is my pleasure to welcome Shonda Rhimes to Wildcard. Hi.

[Shonda Rhimes]

Hi. Thanks for having me.

[Rachel Martin]

I'm so happy to have you here. I'm so happy to do this with you. Okay, so we're gonna start with round one, memories. Okay, I'm gonna hold up three cards, and you, Shonda Rhimes, pick one, two, or three.

[Shonda Rhimes]

I'm gonna pick three.

[Rachel Martin]

Three. What's an early experience of appreciating beauty?

[Shonda Rhimes]

You know, when I was young, we didn't do a ton of traveling. We were a family that, you know, we didn't have that kind of money. And I was the youngest of six, so we did a lot of camping trips and that kind of thing. And what I feel most excited about is my parents wanted us to still have these cultural experiences that they maybe Couldn't afford to give us. And a lot of them came through the books they brought home and the poetry. My dad loved Walt Whitman. He would recite Walt Whitman poetry to us all the time.

[Rachel Martin]

And.

[Shonda Rhimes]

And in the beginning, you're sort of not listening, and then I just remember, you know, you're like, dad. And then I just remembered the one day where he was reciting a poem, and I could suddenly see it in my head.

[Rachel Martin]

Ah.

[NPR Sponsor Announcer]

Wow.

[Shonda Rhimes]

And it was, I think, my first experience really loving poetry, because after that, I was very into poetry and very into reading the books and going to the library and finding new poetry books. But his love of poetry translated to us in that way because he was so passionate about it. And I think that might be my first. Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

When you say that you were able to imagine poetry in a new way, can you touch back to what image came to your mind or how you saw poetry because of him?

[Shonda Rhimes]

Yeah. I mean, I thought the beauty of the words was one thing, but it seeped into my consciousness in a way that I felt like. And the only way I can say it, I felt like I was standing inside the poem and could experience what the author was trying to. The writer was trying to convey and get us to experience. And that. I don't know how often that happens for people with poetry. You know, I think we think of poetry as something as over here, and a lot of people absolutely love it. But for some reason, that poem. And, you know, it's Walt Whitman. It's not, you know, roomy. It's not. You know what I mean?

[Rachel Martin]

Right. It's not super abstract. Yeah.

[Shonda Rhimes]

Right. So it was. But it was a really interesting moment for me because I suddenly understood the power of words and what they could evoke inside you.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. Which is a powerful thing, obviously, for someone who became a writer.

[Shonda Rhimes]

Yes.

[Rachel Martin]

I imagine that was central to that whole experience.

[Shonda Rhimes]

Absolutely. Okay.

[Rachel Martin]

Still in memories. 1, 2 or 3?

[Shonda Rhimes]

1.

[Rachel Martin]

1. Where would you go when you wanted to feel safe as a kid?

[Shonda Rhimes]

Oh, that. That's. So I spent a lot of my childhood playing in our kitchen pantry. Oh.

[Rachel Martin]

I was wondering if we were gonna go pantry. I've read the book. I know. The pantry time.

[Shonda Rhimes]

I mean, it was a very small space, you know, in our kitchen, but big enough to, like, get inside and close the door. And so I spent so much of my childhood, and it's the most vivid memories for me of playing inside that pantry, and I felt super safe and super happy there. My mom would be in the kitchen cooking, so she was nearby, and I would Stay there for hours and hours and hours. And I built whole kingdoms in there where the cans were characters and. And I'd have to give people up to die. When my mom wanted to cook, like, the peas or something.

[Rachel Martin]

You've gotta go.

[Shonda Rhimes]

Yeah, you're dying. Like, your life is gone. But for me, it was this wonderful sanctuary of space where sort of the world was mine. And I felt really safe and really comfortable.

[Rachel Martin]

It's not that you felt unsafe either. I mean, you just had a lot. There was just a lot of people around. It was a big family.

[Shonda Rhimes]

You're right. It was a big family. And the idea that I had my own space was key, you know? Cause I shared a room with my sister. There were always older siblings around. And so there's something about that pantry that felt like its own quiet storytelling time.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. I also spent a good amount of time in the pantry growing up. There's something. Yeah. I remember sitting on the flour, the big plastic bin that my mom had for flour. She had one for flour and one for sugar. And that's where I would go. I didn't imagine in there, but it would go. That's where I went when I needed to think big thoughts, like, this is serious. Let's just get into this little space. Mine was kind of small. Your sound's more expansive. There was more.

[Shonda Rhimes]

I don't think there was that much room in my head. Our house was huge. But, you know, years later, I went back and we drove by it, and I was like, that house is so small. Had it. All eight of us fit in there.

[Rachel Martin]

Are there any characters or storylines from the pantry that we can identify in some of your later works?

[Shonda Rhimes]

Well, I did write about a royal family, so maybe Queen Charlotte.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, maybe Queen Charlotte originated in the pantry.

[Shonda Rhimes]

I did imagine. Yeah. That kind of life in the pantry. So maybe that was it.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay, last one in. Memories. One, Two or three?

[Shonda Rhimes]

Two.

[Rachel Martin]

Two. What was the soundtrack to your teenage years?

[Shonda Rhimes]

Oh, my gosh. I think the soundtrack to my teenage years involved a mix of Madonna.

[Rachel Martin]

Mmm.

[Shonda Rhimes]

Classic Duran Duran.

[Rachel Martin]

Yes.

[Shonda Rhimes]

And this little band called Level 42 that I loved.

[Rachel Martin]

Like, Level 42.

[Shonda Rhimes]

Do you remember Level 42?

[Rachel Martin]

I know the name Level 42, but now I can't convince.

[Shonda Rhimes]

Well, Level 42, they were great. And so for me, you know, I grew up in, like, the Midwestern suburbs. For me, like, that was. It was deep to have a band that, like, wasn't on the radio. Really?

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, yeah.

[Shonda Rhimes]

You know, I felt really like. I know music.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can you place it in time? Like, what's a scene attached to it? How old are you? Where are you listening? Where are you?

[Shonda Rhimes]

I think I may be 14 in my childhood bedroom hanging out with my best friend. We would, you know, back then there was not a lot of, I don't Even know if CDs were there back then. I think we were still trying to tape record from the radio at that point. And so you'd have these like bootleg recordings or you'd have like an album or something. And I remember we would listen to songs over and over and over again and like just dance around my room. And you have to imagine me with two braids down the side of my head and my really thick coke bottle glasses. And I think I wore a lot of pink and was just this bouncy teenager who thought that everything was incredible. I was sure that the world was gonna turn out okay for me, like my life was gonna turn out okay. And those songs always really made me feel like this is who I want to be or this is how I want to be.

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[Rachel Martin]

Before we start round two, let's talk about your book. Congratulations.

[Shonda Rhimes]

Thank you. I'm really excited.

[Rachel Martin]

So for those who didn't read it the first go round when it came out, let's talk just about the central conceit of the book. I remember when it came out and I did not read it because I saw that title and I was like, year of yes. No, ma'. Am. I am in my year of no. Like, I had two little kids at home, and the whole idea of, like, saying yes to anything besides just keeping them alive, primal needs met. Yeah. Seemed totally crazy to me. But, I mean, this was this revolutionary idea for you in particular, because you had this. You had a big life. But remind us what it was that led you to this recognition that you were saying no or you weren't saying yes as much as you wanted to be.

[Shonda Rhimes]

I didn't live a big life. That's what's interesting. People always say that you had a big life. I did not. My characters had really big, glorious lives, and I was doing nothing except for writing those lives. So I. I wasn't going out. I was very shy, incredibly introverted. I wasn't going out and accepting any of those. The exciting things that happen when you're starting to get accolades. People invite you to interesting and amazing places. I had never said yes to any of those things. I would barely say yes to going to a party. I don't think I was going to. I was doing nothing. And my excuse was, I have three shows and two small children and a tween. Like, I can't.

[Rachel Martin]

I mean, those are good excuses.

[Shonda Rhimes]

They're very good excuses. But my sister. It was Thanksgiving Day, and my sister was cooking, and I was sort of going on and on about all of the invitations I'd gotten. The king of Monaco invited me here, and I'm this and that. And it was all very fancy. And she stopped and she said, shonda, are you gonna do any of those things? And I remember just being like, no. Like, what are you talking about? Like, I can't possibly do any of those things. And she said, you never say yes to anything. And it was a really powerful moment for me because I'd never thought of it that way. I never thought of the fact that I was always saying no to everything. And so that started me on this idea that I would take a year and say yes to everything. That scared me.

[Rachel Martin]

So the shyness piece is kind of throughout because it meant putting yourself out in a new way that felt really exposing and vulnerable to you. For people out there, I mean, lots and lots of people suffer from that, from. It's not just being shy, but you had a real. There was a real fear attached to putting yourself out in those ways. At parties or on stage or whatever. Public Speaking. How do you do it? How did you just get over that?

[Shonda Rhimes]

Well, first of all, like, I'm gonna say to anybody, I couldn't have even done this with you, like, 10, 12 years ago when I started. I think, for me, what I did is the very act of doing the thing that scares you undoes the fear. So it's horrible for the moment, and then it's done, and you realize that you did not die. Your brain did not explode. You did not make a horrendous fool of yourself. Nobody's pointing and laughing at you. You know, it's that idea of you just have to leap and do it, and it's so hard to make that leap. But the more you exercise that muscle, the easier it becomes. Every single time.

[Rachel Martin]

You ended relationships through this.

[Shonda Rhimes]

I did.

[Rachel Martin]

Close ones.

[Shonda Rhimes]

You know, it's really surprising, but not actually that people are not. You will find that there are people in your life who are not ready for you to have a new definition of yourself. They're just not. And they're not happy for you. You know, And I think it's threatening to who they are. Like, I have a little group of very dark, pessimistic people around me who joined me in my dark pessimism who were not happy when I stopped being an unhappy person because they didn't recognize me. But it also threatened their comfort zone.

[NPR Sponsor Announcer]

Right.

[Shonda Rhimes]

And, you know, I always feel like you have to give your friends a lot of grace. You really do, because you are changing, and that is different. But then there's a realization that there are people who can be confused for a while and then catch up, or people who are cheering you on, and then there are the people who just aren't having it. And in a certain way, those people can't remain in your life. And I never thought I would, like, shed a friend or shed anybody from my life. And so it was really heartbreaking a lot of the time. But it was also one of the best things I ever did, because you realize, you know, there are friends who are amazing if you're miserable, and then there are friends who. Those same people are not comfortable with you being happy.

[Rachel Martin]

Mm. It was a dear friend of yours. And then you also said no to an engagement.

[Shonda Rhimes]

I did.

[Rachel Martin]

You were engaged. You didn't say no to the engagement.

[Shonda Rhimes]

Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

You said no to getting married.

[Shonda Rhimes]

To getting married. And it was a. It was a real realization. You know, I thought I was doing this thing you're supposed to want to do, but I had. You know, when I was a kid, I imagined Having a ton of kids, I never imagined a husband. You know, my Ken doll just kept Barbie's shoes in his head. Like, he was not in any way, like, exciting for me when I was a kid. So it was really interesting. And my parents have this incredible 60 plus year marriage that is just beautiful. But for me, somehow it just felt like, I don't know, I'd never imagined it. And so when I was sort of in the place where I met somebody and he was great, and I thought, like, yeah, let's do. It was a stretch for me. And I remember feeling.

[Rachel Martin]

Cause you already had your kids.

[Shonda Rhimes]

Yeah, I already had my kids. I was done. I remember feeling like, what am I doing? Like, you know, a very strong, like, sense of what am I doing? And worrying about all the. You know, I have only so much energy, so much battery. Like, am I gonna have energy for this other person? And the other thing that happened was. And this. This was amazing for me, people treated the fact that a man wanted to marry me like the biggest celebration in the world. More than when I had my kids, more than when I won a Peabody Award, more than, you know, more than any accolade I'd ever gotten. The biggest thing was like, oh, there's a man that wants to marry her. That drove me.

[Rachel Martin]

You're validated now, right?

[Shonda Rhimes]

You're validated. That drove me crazy. But it was really hard to break it off and to say. To have the uncomfortable conversation and also just tell myself, no, you really don't want to get married.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So 10 years on, what was it like to revisit this book? What did you feel like needed to be underlined again? And what were you like, ooh, I need a whole new chapter. Because this is something different. I need this audience to know.

[Shonda Rhimes]

I mean, I think that there was a lot of me needing to reach back and look at the things that had really shaped me in these past 10 years. I always say I founded the athlete inside me and started playing golf, which.

[Rachel Martin]

I love this so much.

[Shonda Rhimes]

It was such a joy.

[Rachel Martin]

Myself, I cannot stand golf, but I love that you love golf.

[Shonda Rhimes]

It's funny, like, I was a person who, if you had told me five years ago that I would be an avid golfer, I would have laughed in your face so hard, because that sounds ridiculous to me. Golf, I thought it was the most boring thing in the world, and now I'm obsessed with it. And it was just being in Connecticut, thinking, like, okay, I need a hobby. Like, I haven't had a hobby since I started writing Shows and had kids. So I took up golf, and it really turned out to be this amazing thing. It's great to be terrible at something that you then only you can work to get better at. Like, it's really dependent on your effort, how much you put in. You are responsible for your successes and your failures, and it's very humbling. So that was one of the most wonderful things. I also talk about how important it is to sort of let go of the mentorship myth that we're told that if you don't have a mentor, you can't get anywhere.

[Rachel Martin]

I loved that. That is so counter to what we're told all the time. And then if you don't have this, like, mythical, magical relationship with someone who's been down the road before you and wants to impart the their wisdom, if that you don't have this singular relationship, that you've somehow failed at life, that.

[Shonda Rhimes]

You failed, you're never gonna make it. And, you know, everybody says you need to have a mentor. People are always asking, like, will you be my mentor? And the reality of it is, is there are a million books out there that can help you understand people's lives and experiences. So I just read tons of memoirs and autobiographies, and those were your mentors. And those books became my mentors. I was in a business where nobody looked like me and nobody knew me when I started out. I mean, Grey's Anatomy was my first show, so nobody looked like me, Nobody knew me in town. So I didn't have anybody to turn to to be a mentor. And nobody was knocking down my door trying to be a mentor. So it feels really important to be able to pull other people's experiences in and learn from those. You can be your own best mentor. But waiting for permission for somebody to say, like, you, I pick you, like, you're gonna be great, is a terrible idea. Cause you're waiting for somebody else to start your life.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, just tick off a couple of your mentors.

[Shonda Rhimes]

Your book Mentors Becoming by Michelle Obama is a really great one. Shoe Dog by Phil Knight. Bird by Bird by Anne Lamott. Open by Andre Agassi. There's some really great books there that don't seem like they might have anything to do with my life, but taught me so much.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, I love a memoir. Okay, we're moving to round two.

[Shonda Rhimes]

Okay.

[Rachel Martin]

Insights.

[Shonda Rhimes]

Insights.

[Rachel Martin]

Three new cards. Okay. One, two or three? Two, two. What's your shortcut to a good cry?

[Shonda Rhimes]

Oh, what's my shortcut to a good cry?

[Rachel Martin]

You have a skip And a flip.

[Shonda Rhimes]

I know. I'm thinking about it for a minute.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay, cool.

[Shonda Rhimes]

My shortcut to a good cry is anything involving, you know, there are endless YouTube videos of soldiers coming home to their families. I'm not kidding. Like, that is a definite shortcut to a good cry. Anytime my children do something amazing, I weep. Like any standing on stage singing a warbly little song when they're four or five years old. You know, all of those things. That's a shortcut to a good cry. And, I don't know. I live in my characters and I live in novels that I read. Almost anything moves me, I have to say, like, I'm not like a mushy person, but I really do fall for the emotion every time.

[Rachel Martin]

My staff and I often have this conversation, like, what makes a cry good? What is your answer to that question?

[Shonda Rhimes]

A good cry, One where you feel sort of almost relieved afterwards.

[NPR Sponsor Announcer]

Yeah.

[Shonda Rhimes]

You know, one that really can evoke emotion. I don't think you can ever force a good cry. So when a good cry comes along, you know, take it. Because usually it means that you're experiencing something in a really big way. So I love that. Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

Three more still in insights. One, two or three?

[Shonda Rhimes]

Three.

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

Three.

[Rachel Martin]

How much do you rely on the validation of others?

[Shonda Rhimes]

I don't. I don't. You know, I think you reach an age where, I mean, it's never been important to me what other people think.

[Rachel Martin]

Really?

[Shonda Rhimes]

Yeah. I mean, I say never, but to degrees. And I think I reached a place in the last five years. Maybe it's turning 50 or something that made me just go like, I really don't care. Life's too short. You reach this age of wisdom where you just don't care anymore. And I can't waste my time and energy caring about other people's validation. Because then even professionally, with the stuff.

[Rachel Martin]

You make, you need people to like it. It's like this fine line, I do.

[Shonda Rhimes]

Need people to like it, but I don't do my job so that people will like it. You know what I mean? Like, I don't write the shows thinking people are gonna like this. And then I don't. When the shows come out, I don't sit around sort of waiting to see if people like this. It is a wonderful byproduct, a wonderful byproduct of my shows, but I just. I can't live like that. It's a little exhausting. And also, when you believe the good things people say about you, you also then are obligated to believe the bad things.

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, that is a powerful idea, isn't it?

[Shonda Rhimes]

Yeah. And to me, that's not a way to be creative, pursue creativity. It's not a way to do business. You know, it's wonderful that people watch the shows, and I think that it's a byproduct of how much hard work and how much we love doing and how we do it. Maybe, but it should not be the goal. The goal is to make a great show that I'm proud of.

[Rachel Martin]

How'd you come out that way? I mean, you said you've always been like this, with the ability to be like, I am valuable in and of myself, and I do not need external validation from other people.

[Shonda Rhimes]

I was raised by very amazing parents who really, you know, my father was a guy who was always saying, the only limit to your success is your own imagination. And my mother was a woman who I used to say, like, she was my secret advance man, you know, moving through the world, knocking obstacles out of my path that I didn't even know existed. You know, she was, you know, like, any racism in the 70s, I did not. I was not totally aware of it because my mother had already taken care of it ahead of time. People who, like the woman who said, I shouldn't be going to Dartmouth, my guidance counselor, you know, not Ivy League.

[Rachel Martin]

Material, you were trying to call it. Not Ivy League material.

[Shonda Rhimes]

And my mom, like, came in and took care of that and was like, apply anywhere you want to. So there's a lot of that, and a lot of that really had to do with us understanding our worth and my parents making sure that we understood our worth in the world. So I have some very confident sisters as well because of that. I think we all grew up that way.

[Rachel Martin]

And it shapes your parenting. No doubt.

[Shonda Rhimes]

It does, it does. I want my girls to know that they're powerful people, that nobody's, you know, other people's judgments about them are not as important as how they judge themselves. And, you know, I want them to be great people. I don't want them to be, you know, cruel or mean, and I want them to be kind, but I also don't want them to be stepped on.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, I know this too. I have an 11 year old and a 13 year old boys, but I.

[Shonda Rhimes]

Have an 11 and a 13 year old girls.

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, yeah. So we're right in it. And that age in particular, they care so much what other people think. And you remember when you were 11, 13, you're like, I get it. It's real strong, this desire to fit in and to be accepted in this group. This group. It's a hard thing to teach a kid that age that you are enough. And if people can't see it right now, then tell them to go pound sand and live your life.

[Shonda Rhimes]

My daughter Becky calls it fitting out. She's always like I'm fitting out. And for her, she's very much her own person in a lot of ways. I mean, obviously subjected to all the horrible things that tweens feel and have to deal with in terms of self esteem. But she's still very much her own person margins her own drummer. And she calls it fitting out.

[Rachel Martin]

And the way even you say that she feels good about it, there's like a strength in that.

[Shonda Rhimes]

It used to bother her when she was little, like really little. I mean that's where fitting out came from. She must have been like 4 or 5 years old. But as she's gotten older, fitting out has become a thing that very comfortable for her.

[Rachel Martin]

I love it. I love it. I can use that. Can I use that?

[Shonda Rhimes]

Yes, please.

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[Rachel Martin]

Beliefs Final Round Beliefs Round 3 New Cards 12 or 31 1. Have you ever experienced a divine power?

[Shonda Rhimes]

No. So maybe we should skip that one.

[Rachel Martin]

Skip.

[Shonda Rhimes]

Okay.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay, here we go. Where do you feel most free?

[Shonda Rhimes]

Oh I feel most free when I'm writing. So I don't know if there's a where to that. But to me it's like, because I can write anywhere as long as I'm wearing headphones.

[Rachel Martin]

What does that process look like for you?

[Shonda Rhimes]

Do you need to be.

[Rachel Martin]

Does it need to be quiet? Do you listen to things?

[Shonda Rhimes]

So I've trained myself to the. And I don't think I thought of it consciously, but I've trained myself so much that if I'm wearing my particular kind of headphones and I'm listening to music and that music can be different based on what it is I'm writing, I can sort of sink into that creative writing space where the world sort of fades away around me and I don't know, it's that feeling like you feel like you could fly forever. It's that feeling and it's. To me, it's the best feeling in the world. It's almost like a runner's high. But it's where my brain lives and feels most comfortable. So whenever I'm living inside one of these made up worlds that I've created, there's a joy there and a freedom there that feels so good. I mean, I'm sure somebody would have something to say about the fact that like, I'm creating worlds and my own rules and my own environments. That feeling is like no other feeling.

[Rachel Martin]

Do you grieve it when it's gone then?

[Shonda Rhimes]

I don't know. I think I feel such a satisfaction when it's. Because it's never gone. Cause you're writing and then you're taking the thing that you created and creating it in a production with actors and everybody. And then you're taking the thing you created and really sort of finally creating it in the editing process. So there's a lot to it. And by that point I think I'm ready to be done, you know, by the time we've done editing it.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah.

[Shonda Rhimes]

But I. I miss the feeling. I definitely do. I don't grieve a project, but I.

[Rachel Martin]

Miss the feeling of when you first birthed that idea.

[Shonda Rhimes]

Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

That'S lovely. Okay, three more. One, two or three? Two, two. What do you look forward to when you're older?

[Shonda Rhimes]

Oh, wow. I think I look forward to seeing who my children are going to become. And I look forward to grandchildren, which is not a thing I ever thought I would ever say that I would be thinking of myself like, I can't wait to be a grandmother. But that sounds really cool at this point. Love the baby. Hand them back. And I think I'm looking forward to not being on the wheel that is television. As much as I love it, I think there's going to be a time when I just want to live on a farm somewhere and write whatever I feel like writing, you know, and not be doing it for somebody or for a project, but just for myself.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, that feels like a nice thing to look forward to.

[Shonda Rhimes]

Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

When will, you know, to take yourself out of that wheel?

[Shonda Rhimes]

I. I think I have to want to.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah.

[Shonda Rhimes]

And right now, I don't totally want to. Right now, I feel like I love what I do, and I'm enjoying the process. And I think the minute I stop loving what I do, that's the time, you know, and maybe that'll never happen. Maybe I'll be like Norman Lear, still making shows at 100, I mean, which is just amazing and brilliant. Or maybe I'll, you know, there'll be a moment when I say, like, okay, I'm done. Like, I'm done, and I'm good with that. I've said everything I want to say in this medium. Maybe that'll happen. I don't know. But I do look forward to just writing for myself.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay, last one. 1, 2, or 3? 2. 2. What's an experience you wish you could give every person? Oh, wow, that's a big one.

[Shonda Rhimes]

But I like that. I think. I wish I could give every. And this is very vague, I think, but I wish I could give every person the opportunity and the ability to understand that just because someone's different from you, that doesn't mean that their differences make them unknowable to you. You know, I feel like I'd love it to live in a world in which people were more curious about people who are different than them, than angry or frustrated. We're so divided right now, so I think that might be an experience I'd want to give everybody.

[Rachel Martin]

Curiosity.

[Shonda Rhimes]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

Like approaching people with that. Yes. Shonda Rhimes. We end the show the same way every time with a trip in our memory time machine. In the memory time machine, you pick one moment of your past you would like to revisit. It's not a moment you want to change anything about. It's just a moment you'd like to linger in a little longer. What moment do you choose?

[Shonda Rhimes]

The days I brought my children home. I mean, I think that those were such beautiful, such peaceful days. You know, that moment when somebody hands you a baby that's now a member of your family? I think I would love to live in those moments again.

[Rachel Martin]

Is there a particular scene, moment, color, smell, detail that you can share of one of those days?

[Shonda Rhimes]

Growling stomach I think probably one of the best moments is watching my daughter stare at her new sibling. And Emerson was about, I don't know, not even one years old or just one years old. And I was at the hospital and I sent a video of the baby crying and sort of the first moments. And she watched that video a thousand times with a little bit of horror and a little bit of wonder. Like she, you know, it was that thing where you keep swiping and keep swiping. She just kept watching it and I thought like the wonder and amazement on her face was so precious. And it's something that, you know can't be recreated, you can't cap, you know, can't capture. But it was so beautiful.

[Rachel Martin]

Shonda Rhimes re release of her memoir Year of Yes is out now. It has been 10 years since the book was first published. Thank you.

[Shonda Rhimes]

Thank you so much.

[Rachel Martin]

If you like this episode, go back and check out our episode with Uzo Aduba. Uzo stars in the most recent show that Shonda produced, the Residents. Both Shonda and Uzo are women who've got all this confidence and it comes across in both their work and their personal lives. This episode was produced by Summer Tamad and edited by Dave Blanchard. It was mastered by Patrick Murray and Kwesi Lee. Wildcard's executive producer is Yolana Segweni and our theme music is by Ramtin Araplooi. We'll shuffle the deck and be back with more next week. Talk to you then.

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