Wild Card with Rachel Martin

Guest: Shonda Rhimes
Episode: "Why It's Never Been Important to Me What Other People Think"
Date: October 23, 2025

Episode Overview

In this engaging episode of Wild Card, Rachel Martin sits down with acclaimed television writer and producer Shonda Rhimes. Through Rachel's signature card-pull format, the conversation explores Shonda's approach to validation, creativity, personal growth, and parenting. Shonda opens up about her introversion, the origins of her creative drive, the evolution she experienced since her "Year of Yes," and how she learned not to seek outside validation. The episode is rich with candid reflections, memorable stories from Rhimes' childhood, and actionable wisdom about boundaries, mentorship, and living authentically.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

On Validation and Self-Worth

• Shonda's Detachment from External Validation
  • "It's never been important to me what other people think. I can't waste my time and energy caring about other people's validation." (00:23, 22:45)
  • Shonda explains the liberating realization that when you embrace the good things people say, you're also tied to their negative feedback—which she refuses to do.
  • She credits her parents for instilling deep self-worth:
    • "My father was a guy who was always saying, the only limit to your success is your own imagination. And my mother ... was my secret advance man, moving through the world, knocking obstacles out of my path." (24:39)

Childhood Memories and Creative Imagination

• Discovering Beauty Through Poetry
  • Shonda recalls her father reciting Walt Whitman and the transformative moment when she could "stand inside the poem." (02:16–04:19)
    • "I suddenly understood the power of words and what they could evoke inside you." (04:19)
• The Pantry Sanctuary
  • Shonda describes finding safety and imagination in her family's pantry, inventing kingdoms with canned goods as characters. (04:44–05:38)
    • "For me, it was this wonderful sanctuary of space where sort of the world was mine." (05:38)
• Teenage Soundtrack and Identity
  • Madonna, Duran Duran, Level 42 formed the soundscape of her adolescence. Shonda reflects on feeling hopeful and vibrant, listening in her room and taping songs off the radio. (07:32–09:29)
    • "I was sure that the world was gonna turn out okay for me..." (08:20)

The Year of Yes and Personal Transformation

• Recognizing the Comfort of ‘No’

  • Shonda admits to living vicariously through her characters while keeping her own life small. It took her sister’s bluntness to realize she never said yes to opportunity. (11:52–13:19)
    • "My characters had really big, glorious lives, and I was doing nothing except for writing those lives." (11:52)

• Conquering Fear Through Action

  • "The very act of doing the thing that scares you undoes the fear." (13:47)
  • She emphasizes the anxiety of facing new experiences, but also its crucial role in dismantling self-imposed limitations.

• Friendships and Boundaries

  • As she grew, Shonda found that some friends couldn't accept her happiness:
    • "There are friends who are amazing if you're miserable... those same people are not comfortable with you being happy." (15:07–15:49)

• Rejecting Expected Narratives

  • On ending an engagement:
    • "When I was a kid, I imagined having a ton of kids, I never imagined a husband." (16:01)
    • She was bewildered by how society values marriage above other achievements:
      "People treated the fact that a man wanted to marry me like the biggest celebration in the world. More than when I had my kids, more than when I won a Peabody..." (16:46)

Rethinking Mentorship

• Challenging the Mentor Myth
  • Rhimes underscores that waiting for a mentor can be limiting:
    • "You can be your own best mentor. But waiting for permission for somebody to say ... you're gonna be great, is a terrible idea. Cause you're waiting for somebody else to start your life." (19:29–20:29)
  • Rhimes found her ‘mentors’ in memoirs and autobiographies such as Michelle Obama's "Becoming" and Andre Agassi's "Open." (20:32)

On Creativity and Feeling Free

• The Writing Process
  • Shonda describes writing as the ultimate freedom—she can write anywhere with headphones and the right music. (29:18–30:43)
    • "It's that feeling and it's... the best feeling in the world. It's almost like a runner's high. But it's where my brain lives and feels most comfortable." (30:37)
  • She finds joy in inventing worlds and establishing her own rules.

Parenting and Modeling Confidence

• Passing on Self-Worth

  • Rhimes strives to instill the same sense of value in her daughters:
    • "I want my girls to know that they're powerful people, that ... other people's judgments about them are not as important as how they judge themselves." (25:38)

• "Fitting Out"

  • Her daughter Becky takes pride in "fitting out," embracing individuality—a family mantra Rachel requests to borrow. (26:34–27:14)

Reflections and Hopes for the Future

• Looking Forward
  • Shonda anticipates watching her children grow and becoming a grandmother. She hopes for leisure—writing for herself, outside the demands of television. (31:36–33:15)
    • "There's going to be a time when I just want to live on a farm somewhere and write whatever I feel like writing..." (31:45)

Universal Experience Shonda Would Grant

• Promoting Curiosity Over Division
  • "I wish I could give every person the opportunity and the ability to understand that just because someone's different from you, that doesn't mean that their differences make them unknowable to you." (33:34)

Memorable Moments & Quotes

• On Not Taking Validation Personally:
  • "When you believe the good things people say about you, you also then are obligated to believe the bad things." (22:45, 23:59)
• On Mentorship:
  • "Those books became my mentors." (19:29)
• On Creative Fulfillment:
  • "You feel like you could fly forever... it's the best feeling in the world." (01:00, 30:37)

Timestamps for Notable Segments

• Validation and Criticism: 00:23, 22:45
• Childhood Beauty & Poetry: 02:16–04:19
• The Pantry & Imagination: 04:44–05:38
• Year of Yes Origin Story: 11:52–13:19
• Overcoming Stage Fright: 13:47
• On Losing Friendships Due to Growth: 15:07–15:49
• Mentorship Perspective: 19:11–20:29
• Writing as Freedom: 29:18–30:43
• "Fitting Out" and Individuality: 26:34–27:14
• What She’d Give the World: 33:34
• Memory Time Machine – Bringing Children Home: 34:48–36:09

Tone and Takeaways

The conversation balances warmth, vulnerability, and wisdom. Rhimes offers honest, occasionally humorous reflections, maintaining a tone that is direct yet compassionate. Her focus on authenticity, self-reliance, and curiosity—and her candid revelations about anxiety, introversion, and the cost of growth—make for both a grounding and inspiring listen.

For deeper context, listen to Shonda Rhimes and Rachel Martin riff on everything from Level 42, to writing as a runner’s high, to why ‘fitting out’ is more meaningful than fitting in.