253: Brian Matthews

Summary

Wildlife Photo Chat: Episode 253 — Brian Matthews

Date: April 7, 2026
Host: Ray Hennessy
Guest: Brian Matthews

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Episode Overview

This episode of Wildlife Photo Chat features renowned UK-based wildlife photographer Brian Matthews. Ray and Brian have an in-depth conversation about Brian’s unique approach to wildlife photography, particularly his groundbreaking work photographing seabirds, such as puffins, in and under the water. The discussion covers Brian’s creative evolution, technical challenges, influence of environmental changes, and the importance of understanding his subjects.

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Main Themes & Insights

Early Spring in the UK & Seasonal Changes

• Brian opens by describing recent weather in the UK, noting an early spring and the impact of climate change on seasonal cues.
  • “The spring flowers are coming out in the UK. The first of the real sort of spring inkling...They've just started to appear further south in England, so it's pretty early.” [01:49]
  • Notable species arrivals: puffins, guillemots, northern gannets, ospreys [01:49–02:43]

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Shooting Beyond Seabirds & The Allure of Unique Wildlife

• Brian enjoys photographing more than just seabirds—mountain species in Jura (chamois, ibex, stoats), underwater scenes in Egypt, etc. [03:06–04:21]
• Humor about “holiday skiing with people” while in the Jura. [03:49]

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Creative Evolution: From Local Birds to New Perspectives

• Brian’s journey began with birds in his youth, expanding from local birdwatching to remote, challenging environments post-university.
  • “...the difference between spending time in places and sort of passing through places.” [05:03]
• Importance of long-term observation—40 years on certain seabird islands—providing valuable perspectives on species shifts and climate-change impact. [05:46–07:09]
• Quote:

  "There's been a big shift in the last 20 years where people might think everything's always been like this, but it hasn't." [06:32]

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Balancing Passion and Commercial Viability

• Brian acknowledges the need to fund his work but allows for personal projects without commercial concern.

  • “I always try and do something that results in, like, commercial return...and occasionally once a year, you might get one of those shots.” [08:09]

• Notable example: Underwater puffin shots, now recognized and sought after, were once unprecedented.

  • “...puffin in the water are probably an example of that, because people hadn't really seen those type of images.” [09:10]

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The Birth of Underwater Seabird Photography

• Two main inspirations:
  1. Diving with grey seals during COVID lockdowns in the UK, gaining underwater skills [10:34–11:44]
  2. Experimenting with puffin decoys—custom-made, painted to attract birds and tested for effectiveness, even employing UV paint after learning about puffin visual cues [12:51–14:03]
• Collaboration: Works closely with “Ollie,” who ensures safety and assists in the water. [09:37]
• Description of typical shoot: Pre-dawn start, out by sunrise, returning before tourist boats, sometimes with up to 20 days in the water per season. [14:03–15:09]

“We’re in the water at three in the morning, Ollie arrives and then we head straight out for sunrise. So this is pretty mid-summer. So the sun’s rising sort of 4, 4:15.” [14:03]

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Technical and Physical Challenges

• Long lenses with underwater housings: Unstable, physically demanding, even more so in cold North Sea waters (9–14°C).

• Uses a Cressi 2-piece 7mm spearfishing wetsuit for warmth; explains why wetsuits are better than drysuits for this application (mobility, less buoyant). [18:22–19:47]

• Emphasizes the necessity of experience, physical fitness, and the risks involved—frequently dissuades would-be copycats.

  • “...sometimes I’m in the water for three hours.” [18:00]
  • “A lot of people ask me to take them out...I think it's just such a high risk to do.” [17:23]

• Drift techniques: Often drifts with currents, careful positioning for background, light, and safety.

• Signature images include the sky due to extremely low shooting angle—can only be achieved by being physically in the water. [21:10–22:37]

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Underwater Wildlife Behavior

• Unique personal experience of seeing guillemots and razorbills interact underwater—“they will dive under and then literally swim towards you.” [22:56]
• Insight into puffin morphology and adaptation:

  “...when they're on the surface they use the legs to move around and then as soon as they dive, they put the legs back and the legs don't move at all. They just exclusively use the wing.” [24:46]

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Photographic Style & Gear Choices

• Prefers shallow depth-of-field and out-of-focus foreground/background, even underwater. Still experiments with wider lenses for dynamic split shots. [25:10–26:50]
• Moving to Canon R5 Mark II with 15-35mm f/2.8 for upcoming season, excited about better focus and composition capabilities versus older DSLRs. [26:50–28:03]
• Highlights difficulty of working with ultra-wide lenses and floating rigs with GoPros to document both still and video. [29:43–30:21]

“We've used floating rigs with GoPros on, which have worked unbelievably well...some of the video that you'll see associated with the images is taken using that technique.” [29:43]

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Purpose and Impact of the Imagery

• Photos are part of a larger UK coasts & biodiversity project, culminating in a book and educational material to connect with GCSE Natural History curriculum. [30:57]
• Uses photos to educate about coastal wildlife, climate change, nuanced conservation stories, and the “strange” stories of places like St Kilda and its snowy owl, Snedge. [30:57–34:05]
• Explores challenges of balancing renewable energy development and seabird migration/conservation.

“It's informing people about these places that exist, the strange stories, the interesting research...” [34:05]

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Real-World Impacts & Resilience

• Discusses recent mass puffin deaths due to extreme storms, concern about future counts and conservation status. [34:05–35:55]
• Notes some seabird populations are rebounding since avian flu, evidence of adaptability:

  “...kind of fascinating to watch sort of the resilience of these birds.” [36:58]

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Dedication to Subject and Iterative Creativity

• Brian emphasizes the importance of long-term engagement:
  • “I don't do a huge amount of that sort of stuff...I very rarely take a portrait photograph of a seabird between nine in the morning and eight in the evening anymore...” [39:14]
• Always striving for innovation—contrasts, lighting, behaviors, and new technical challenges.

“You're continuing to try and come up with new ideas, more creativity, more interesting approaches...That's just part of your DNA, isn't it? You can't just kind of keep doing the same thing over and over again, right?”
“No, I enjoy trying to do something sometimes just a little bit different, but working on it, working and keep on developing it.” [46:43]

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The Importance of Subject Knowledge vs. Technical Skill

• Brian finds both critical, but leans toward the deep value of understanding animal behavior and natural history, especially given modern gear’s capabilities:

  “I really enjoy learning about and watching, observing and gathering information on the subject...I think learning the subject is, is really, really important once you've got...a level of ability with your camera equipment and that takes a little step up when you're doing it in the water.” [42:03–43:18]

• Suggests starters try surface-level, GoPro setups before investing heavily in dangerous and expensive equipment. [43:19–44:44]
• Technical settings tip:

  “...literally put it on speed control, good old tv, stick it at thousandths of a second, put auto ISO on, and then...take and add a little bit of light using the rear dial to exposure comp.” [44:44]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The easiest way to avoid it [the gray, wet UK winter] is leave the country.” – Brian [00:50]
• “It's got a level of risk to it as well. You need to be very comfortable in the water.” – Brian [09:11]
• “A weird guy floating around with a camera and like decoy puffins around him.” – Brian [14:50]
• “You need to do make sure you're physically fit enough as well.” – Brian [17:23]
• “To get that low is very, very difficult. You have to be in the water. You can't do it off a boat.” – Brian [22:37]
• “GoPro is the entry drug.” – Brian [43:56]
• “I enjoy trying to do something sometimes just a little bit different, but working on it, working and keep on developing it.” – Brian [46:43]

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:49 — Spring wildlife changes, seabird arrivals
• 03:06 — Variety of subjects: bluebirds, stoats, ibex, scuba trips
• 05:03 — Creative evolution & inclination for unique locations
• 08:09 — Balancing passion with commercial fishing
• 10:34 — Origin of underwater seabird work, decoys, safety logistics
• 14:03 — Practicalities and risks of sunrise seabird swimming
• 18:22 — Gear, wetsuit vs. drysuit for cold water
• 21:10 — Drift techniques and “split” water shots
• 22:56 — Underwater bird behavior; morphological observations
• 25:10 — Preference for shallow DOF, wide vs. tele underwater
• 26:50 — Mirrorless camera advantages in water
• 30:57 — Photos’ role in biodiversity projects, tales from St Kilda
• 34:05 — Climate, wind farms, migration, and conservation impact
• 35:55 — Puffins’ resilience, avian flu & recovery
• 39:10 — Selectivity and commitment over “tourist shots”
• 42:03 — Subject knowledge vs. photographic technique
• 43:19 — GoPro as a starting point; warnings on difficulty
• 44:44 — Simple, effective underwater exposure settings
• 46:11 — The drive to continually innovate and go further each season

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Conclusion

This conversation is a masterclass in combining technical mastery, perseverance, and deep naturalist curiosity. Brian Matthews exemplifies the synergy between knowing your subjects intimately, pushing creative boundaries, and sharing the wonders—and plights—of British seabirds with the world. His emphasis on safety, long-term perspective, and environmental impact offers both inspiration and practicality for aspiring wildlife photographers at any level.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome, everyone, to another episode of Wildlife Photo Chat. I am incredibly excited to have Brian Matthews on the phone with me today. Brian, how's it going?

[B]

Yeah, really good, thank you. The sun's dropping and the birds are singing here in the uk, so good end to the day.

[A]

Nice. Oh, sun in the uk. I mean, that's always a good day, isn't it?

[B]

Yeah. Last few days have been all right. The beginning of the year was absolutely terrible. I think some places, I've got some friends in the north, Scotland, I think they had 60 days of rain on the trot, so it's been pretty miserable.

[A]

Yeah, no, I was just working with a mentorship student the other day who lives in Scotland and he was saying the same thing. He was just like, I can't believe I'm seeing the sun recently. He was really happy about it, so that's gotta be tough, man. I can't imagine that. Have you ever had really long stints of just no sun?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I'm from the north of England. I spent. And I was brought up in Scotland, so I spent a lot of time in the winter in that sort of gray, drab, slightly wet time. It was the east coast, which. Which is less wet than the west coast in the uk, which was good. But the. The easiest way to avoid it is. Is leave the country.

[A]

Yeah, gotcha. That's too funny, man. So what have you been up to? Is it. Is it. Is like spring starting to show itself there yet, or is it take a little bit longer?

[B]

Yeah, no, no, it's. It's. It's about. Probably two weeks early, which we've been seeing for the last sort of five years. So the. The spring flowers are coming out in the uk. The first of the. The real sort of spring inkling. There's a flower called the bluebell.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

As a sort of bit of an indicator, you've probably seen pictures of, of course, very straight trees and carpeted in blue flowers. They've just started to appear further south in England, so it's. It's pretty early. We've had. Most of the seabirds have arrived already. So nice. The puffins are gathering around the places where I work in the sort of spring summer. The guillemots and a few of the other birds have been there for a few weeks now. And the larger birds, like the northern gannet, they're here. So. And we've got. Our first ospreys have arrived. Nice, the sort of middle of England. And the first Scottish osprey arrived a couple of days ago. So things are coming back from Africa. Everything's warming up a little bit. So spring sort of in full flow right now, probably a little earlier than we would have expected it.

[A]

Oh, nice. That is a good thing, huh? That's always nice when things are coming back to life sooner, especially after, you know, a long winter.

[B]

Yeah. Do.

[A]

Do you work with many of the other stuff? Like, does the. Do all these spring arrivals and all these other birds separate from the seabirds excite you? Do you go out and photograph them much? Or are you just kind of always in the zone with the seabird stuff?

[B]

No, no, no. I will photograph anything that I think is interesting or valuable. So I always do bluebirds because that always does pretty well in national newspapers. So sort of kicks off the sort of income season. I've just come in the Jura, which is north of Geneva on the French Swiss border, with a guy called Steve doing stoats in the summer in the. In the ermine coats, which was really good fun, alongside a few other mountain species like chamois and ibex and a few of the things. So I was out there for four weeks doing.

[A]

Oh, nice.

[B]

A little bit of sort of holiday skiing with people. So that was the sort of kickoff the year. And then a little bit before that, I was very fortunate. I spent a couple of weeks in the Red Sea and Egypt doing some scuba diving and underwater stuff. So a bit of flexibility before the season really kicks off, and then I'll be back in the water. I'll be back in the water probably the week of the 13th of April in the North Sea. So that'll probably be my first week back out with the seabirds.

[A]

How cool, man. That's so exciting. I definitely want to talk more about that, but I'm just curious, how did you sort of evolve to getting to photograph all these kinds of things? Because all the stuff you just described, it sounds wonderful, but it's all a little bit more. I don't even know what the right word is, but, like, you know, unique and. And special, and they're all in these places that have sort of a certain aesthetic to them. And I assume when you first started bird and wildlife photography, you were probably just, I'm guessing, just doing, like, the local stuff, the backyard stuff, the forest birds, and then how does it get to where it's at now?

[B]

I was always. Well, birds were always my main passion. They started as, like, when I was really little as a. As a kid. So I was always interested in seeing different birds, not like a mega twitch or Anything but really keen on understanding and learning about them. And then after university, I. Well, when I was a kid, I was lucky. I did a lot of traveling with my parents and then after university I went traveling for a while and that sort of then got me into looking at how you get images slightly off the beaten path or completely beaten path, and the difference between spending time in places and sort of passing through places.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's, I think, how I just built up an interest in going somewhere that might be not quite the norm or a difficult place to get to, or a difficult subject or a slightly less known subject and spending some time with them. Sometimes it works either. Sometimes it works in the sense you get the shot or you don't. Or sometimes it works in the sense that there's some commercial value to the mother. Isn't. Yeah, but it's that. That's the sort of thing I. I tend to enjoy doing. But with the seabirds, which we'll sort of deep dive into in a bit, that's. That's more sort of. I've been visiting some of the seabird islands since I was in single figures, so it's been interesting seeing how things shift and change, how numbers of birds go up, how different species come in, and that's of real interest to me, particularly around the sort of climate change impact point of view, where you can start recording and talking about differences over, you know, in some cases. I've been visiting the Farnells in Northumberland since I was less than 10, so, you know, heading towards 40 years. And I think that's. That's quite important because that context. Because there's been a big shift in the last 20 years where people might think everything's always been like this, but it hasn't.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think it's important to be able to show people that and talk. People talk about people like that. I think it's harder with wildlife. It's easier with some things like, you know, glacial. Glacial erosion, the obvious one, where you can. You can go to the same place 10 years apart and there can be quite a stark difference as a result of recession. But I think sometimes with birds, it's quite hard, and sometimes with other wildlife species, particularly in the Western Europe, where it doesn't feel like there's lots of wildlife, but you have to go and look for it because most people live in big cities.

[A]

Yeah, sure. Yeah. Yeah, no, definitely. How much of a challenge is it to sort of balance what you're really passionate about doing versus what, like, you've mentioned is Commercially viable and might bring in some income. I mean, do you always focus on. It has to kind of financially make sense, or do you get to just say, you know what, I don't care sometimes, and just, I'm going to go for this because this is what love and my passion.

[B]

Yeah, no, sometimes I'm in quite privileged position where I can say, I don't really care. I want to see something. I'll always try and do something that results in, like, commercial return. And then there's other things that just do particularly well, which are repeat, repeat, repeat. And it'll be like, I think any photographer will have a sort of set of 20 to 50 images when 80% of the income is generated. And I'm. I'm no different. And occasionally once a year, you might get one of those shots. That's probably how it works. And sometimes you hit on a little bit of a sort of wildlife gold mine. And yeah, puffing in the water are probably an example of that, because people hadn't really seen those type of images. You know, people had tried them but hadn't had a great deal of luck. And people had tried them in places where maybe the volume of puffins was not quite as high. So the opportunity is lower.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, you know, and quite rightly. And I tell this to a lot of people who ask about the images because I'm more than happy to talk about them and tell people how to do it and where to do them. It's got a level of risk to it as well. You need to be very comfortable in the water. You need to be working with someone like I do, like Oliver Scheele, who is my sort of boat guy, safety guy, camera passing guy, occasionally taking pictures of me in the water guy.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

And you need someone like Ollie, because if you don't, it can be very, very dangerous.

[A]

Yeah, no, I could. I could absolutely imagine that. And yeah, I mean, it's a perfect time to jump into that. How did you even come up with the idea? Because, listen, man, I first, I think, found out about you through some of those photos and then, you know, grew to enjoy everything that you capture. But there is no denying it's certainly one of the more unique things out there. And I am always certainly drawn to any photographer because I certainly relate in this way that wants to push themselves and try to capture something that really, truly has never been captured before, because that's not the easiest thing to do anymore with how many wildlife photographers are out there. And so how did that even begin? How did you get the idea to hop in the water with these things,

[B]

well, it was two prongs. So it was during the COVID lockdown. One of the things we were able to do was dive with gray seals in the, in the North Sea. So there was a small. There was a small group of us sort of got together from the back end of 2020 and every Thursday from sort of the beginning of September till I think the last time we went in was the 23rd of December when it was snowing on the sea. And with that I gained a lot of understanding and knowledge with this particular area in the UK called the Farnells, which is a set of islands off the northeast of England, off a county called Northumberland. And you jump on a boat from sea houses, head out there, okay. And it's got a huge colony of gray seals that build in the winter to give birth to the seal pups. So there's probably best part of 5,000 seals out there. Oh, wow. And some of them are incredibly interactive, mainly the female seals. So we used to spend a huge amount of time with that. So I got very comfortable in quite rough water with in some cases high currents because they move between the, the islands.

[A]

Gotcha.

[B]

Got very, got very close to the boat guys, the Billy Shield team, and built that relationship up and then started to spend a bit of time at the other part of the UK in a place called Pembrokeshire, which is off coast of Wales, between Wales and Ireland in the Celtic Sea with a company called Celtic Deep, with Richard and Emma. And they were doing trips for blue sharks off the coast. Come and visit, come and visit the UK from the Caribbean sort of in the August, September, October time. And they also started to do a trip to try and get close to puffins. And they do a really successful, pretty sold out trip.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

They use these little decoys made by a guy called David Miller, who's a local artist, who's a fantastic guy. And then I thought, well, there's an opportunity to. It was. It's more of a sort of, you know, experience rather than a photography opportunity. The volume of puffins is low. They're not going out necessarily at the perfect timer early in the morning or late at night.

[A]

Gotcha.

[B]

So I thought, if I can step this up. So I, I got my own puffins made, which originally were a teal duck shooting decoy. And then with a little bit of stage magic, nice people who work in the theater who make props and models for the theater to help me. And we made some puffin decoys. Not sure if they Were gonna work, tested them. They do work. And then we sort of started to look at how to enhance them with. We learned loads like there's UV marking on puffins bills that increases as the puffins age to demonstrate increased strength. We can't see it, but the puffins and many other birds can see into the UV spectrum. So we started doing things like marking them up with UV and then not using UV and seeing how the interaction compared and then feeding that into stuff that the RSPB were doing about re. Rewilding islands that had puffins on, but they all got eaten by rats and mice and now the rest of mice have gone. Can you get the puffins about using decons and stuff?

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So we started to build all of this up and then I ended up working with Ollie. And it basically involves getting up at about 3 in the morning, driving from my parents. I go to my parents because it's quite close to the port, to a place of sea houses, putting a wetsuit on half three in the morning, Ollie arrives and then we head straight out for sunrise. So this is pretty mid summer. So the sun's rising sort of 4, 4 15.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we spend sometimes. Well, we won't get back till 9 o'.

[A]

Clock.

[B]

We always try to get back before half past nine because that's when the main tourist boats head out and we don't want to get in the way. Yep. And I think people will be slightly, you know, curious to see.

[A]

Yeah, no doubt.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. A weird guy floating around with a camera and like decoy puffins around him.

[A]

Yeah, totally.

[B]

So we, we head back and you know, I think last year we probably got. I reckon we probably got 20 days in the water.

[A]

That's really good. Yeah. Wow.

[B]

Yeah. So we got some good weather and you know, sometimes it's quite choppy, but we try to go in when it's choppy because you get slightly different split shots because of the waves. Sure, it's very, very difficult to do, but it's always worth a try. But then sometimes you get this sort of mirror water and that's where some of the really cool sort of split shots and large groups. Sometimes we have rafts of about a thousand, two thousand puffins around us acting in a very sort of normal but slightly curious to the decoy way, which allows me then to use a slightly different setup to most underwater setups. So I use an aquatech housing, which I know.

[A]

Yeah. So do I use as well?

[B]

Yeah, with a longer lens in. And when you're bobbing in the water with a 70 to 200 on. Yeah, it's. It's pretty tough. It can get.

[A]

That's crazy. Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, it's. I mean, that's the thing, I think, so few people understand of that challenge of bird and wildlife photography, of when you introduce your camera into the actual water, how much it affects longer focal lengths. You know, when I first started doing it, I was shooting at 420 millimeter. I managed to get into the housing because Nikon has this like, tiny little 300 millimeter. And I threw a teleconverter on it. And I mean, any little movement in the water, it's just bouncing the image around. And same thing with a floating hide. When I've done some of that kind of work, it's just like any ripple on the water and, you know, if it's a long enough lens, it's like, man, it's really tough to see anything. So I can't imagine just bouncing around in the waves out there, because that's something I haven't done. I mean, almost at all is just shoot from in the water where I can't touch the bottom, you know, and obviously you're just out there freely swimming around and, and trying to shoot. So I just give you so much credit for doing it in the first place, sticking with it, and for the incredible images you get every year, man.

[B]

Yeah, you need. It's one of those things where you need to do make sure you're sort of physically fit enough as well. And I think that's where the balance is. And a lot of people ask me to, to take them out or will I, you know, do a trip or something like that. And yeah, I think it's just such a high risk to do in some, you know, some of these people I know are very competent swimmers or scuba divers, but there's just a, you know, I think a level of lack of understanding. It's even cameras that are floating, when you're using a longer lens, they're incredibly heavy to constantly hold for. You know, sometimes I'm in the water for three hours.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And equally so you have to be used to the, the cold as well because it's, you know, the water doesn't get particularly warm. It'll start warming up from now, but when we go in in eight, in a couple of weeks time, it'll probably be nine degrees. Wow. And then it'll slowly warm up over the summer, maybe up to 13 or 14.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Added peak type thing. So spending a long time in that water can be quite difficult. So you just have to be a bit careful and use, use the right kit. The I use a cressy 2 piece 7 mil spear fishing wetsuit. That one is really easy to get on if you use this sort of slippy stuff which is like hair conditioner you put into this wetsuit and so whiz it on which makes it really easy and it makes it smell, smell quite nice and, and, and they're pretty thick and it's got a hood incorporated into it as well so you can stay pretty warm. And then you have to be used to, you know, we, we. I use a weighted belt to keep me like properly submerged in the water so only a tiny bit of my head's visible. And then you've got to manage puffing decoys. The camera usually some sort of video we take out as well. So there's a lot of stuff going on. You just. So you just have to be, you have to practice basically. It took me a few years to get it, get it right.

[A]

Yeah, no doubt, no doubt. I'm sure it's just like a experiment learned and kind of keep iterating on it. But I've always been curious too. You know, it's interesting you go with a wetsuit. I'm curious as to why not like a dry suit because the water's so cold. I being a novice in this and I've never done any diving or anything like that, would assume that might be just more warm. But is it introduce other problems?

[B]

Yeah, you just don't have the flexibility of movement because in general a dry suit captures air inside it. It's very hard to get it all out so you, you float. So you end up particularly if you're not used to being in the water, rolling around more and fighting the wet suit with the dry suit. So with a wetsuit you're, you're much more flexible. So you'll be warmer in a dry suit but you just don't have the, that flexibility of movement and speed and sometimes you need that if there's a bit of a current or these sort of things. I use like free diving fins. I'm. I'm not too bad at free diving and sort of breath for periods of time and these sort of things. And dry suits just add a little bit of lack of control. Yeah, it's a bit, it's similar why we don't scuba dive. You know, I'm in the water on my own, Ollie's watching me. But as soon as you introduce the scuba diving element to it which, you know, may make things easier from an underwater photography point of view, but it makes it much more complicated from a safety and boat management point of. So you just have to get the balance right.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, no, that totally makes sense. And I'm guessing a lot of the times is it kind of like you're just. You're dropped off and you're just kind of moving with the decoys and the birds and the current and all that stuff until you get picked up again? Is it like. Is there drifting involved with it?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we drift. I drift with a current. So we usually. We know the currents fairly well, or certainly Ollie does, and we'll usually do the equivalent of a drift dive. But me being on the surface and just use the currents to slowly move me into the puffin rafts or to a place where the puffins will come towards me because I'm. I'm in the sort of general area. And then try to avoid, when you're working around islands that are quite small, that the runs between the islands can be quite strong currents. So you just have to be careful in terms of where you position. And then. Then you have to think about where the sun's coming up. And do you want the. Do you want the island in the background? Which sometimes works really well and sometimes makes the contrast drop quite sharply when it's early morning. So the contrast algorithm and the focus doesn't work particularly well. So you just have to sort of pick it up. But I think one of the interesting things is it's easy to tell if you're doing it like I am, because one thing you'll notice straight away if anyone looks at the shots is that you'll see the sky in the images as well as the birds and the water. And to get that low is very, very difficult. You have to be in the water. You can't do it off a boat. So that tends to be the difference you'll notice if people have a look. You'll see the sky in most of the images. And that's because in some cases the waves. I'm actually shooting up towards up.

[A]

Yeah, totally. Oh, man. So, Brian, do you remember the first time you even attempted this? Whether it worked photographically or not, how incredible was it? Being in the water with these birds and being able to see them, like swimming and diving and basically FL underwater the way they do? I mean, that had to be unbelievable.

[B]

It was probably five years ago. I mean, I've seen them on. I've seen Gillimot swimming in the water. Before that, but not volume, but to see them moving in the water, particularly the gillimots and the razor bills, are really curious when they're underwater. So they will dive under and then literally swim towards you. I've had, I've had, had them really, really close. And it's similar with the diving gannets, but obviously they're, they're there for a reason. Because we're putting fish into the water.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

But with the gilly mops and razorbills, the puffins are less interested underwater. They just seem to whiz around what appears to be aimlessly. But okay. To see them underwater and then see how the waterproofing sort of generates this white air shields around, around them underwater. So they've got this sort of highly streamlined effect from their feathers is really, really interesting to see. And the, the way they move is, you know, the, although those three birds are, you know, once they get going flying, they're pretty good. But you know, the start and end of their flight is pretty, pretty bad usually. But underwater they're, they're amazing. They're. You can understand when you see them how they can come back with a beak full of sand eels, you know, it's, it's hard to understand how they would do that. But when you see them swimming, it's like these guys are very maneuverable underwater.

[A]

Yeah. And I mean that's, I mean they're, they're made for that. That's why they're built that way. And so the fact that you get to witness and see that side of their lives that so few people ever get to actually see in person and then, you know, now capture it and share it is just such an incredible thing, man. It really, really is.

[B]

It's quite interesting because they flick because obviously when they're on the surface they use the legs to move around and then as soon as they dive, they put the legs back and the legs don't move at all. They just exclusively use the wing. So yeah, it's really interesting to see them do it.

[A]

Yeah, that's so cool. So photographically, do you prefer lately with the longer lens stuff or the shorter lens stuff like the wider?

[B]

I prefer and always sort of had have that sort of very shallow depth of field imagery with a sort of out of focus foreground and background which makes the subject pop out? That's I think just my natural propensity. I've always preferred that style of photography and that's why if anyone looks at my other images, including like the recent stoat stuff we did in the Jura that there's a similar sort of style in that, but getting really close with a wide angle lens and get the opportunity to get some of the split shots we've got, which I used predominantly a 24 1.4 f 1.4 lens. So it's really fast, pretty wide, good and low light. Those images are really strong. So I'm gonna. One of the things that I'm looking forward to this season is that this will be the first time I've got the R5 Mark 2. Oh, nice puffins. And I think it's a 15 to 35 2.8 lens. And have a bit of a play with that alongside the 70 to 200. So just see how that compares. See how the R5 performs in that very challenging environment I've previously used. Sorry, that's the Canon R5 Mark II. I previously used predominantly the Canon 1 DX Mark 300 lens. So they're, they're, they're the two bodies I use in the Aquatech housings.

[A]

Yeah, gotcha. So. So you have shot the mirrorless camera before or this is the first season of shooting that in the underwater house?

[B]

No, I've not used it for the Puffins. So I've used it for underwater stuff, but not for the puffin. So this will be the first time to see how it, how it works with the Puffins and the underwater stuff.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I would assume it's gonna make things easier to play with focus and comp and compose, you know, I would hope anyway. Yeah, I mean, I would hope so. I had, I started with a Nikon Z6II which was mirrorless, but it didn't have subject tracking on it. And eventually I was just like, it's so frustrating shooting any of this stuff, you know, in this housing and trying to compose it at all. Basically everything I shot was center composed. And when I upgraded to the Z6 III, that had that focus, I mean, it was, at least for what I do, it was night and day, man, it was just such a joy to be able to go, oh, I want to put it here. I'm going to put it here and just have it track it throughout the frame. I mean, boy, even more of an advantage in the water because of how challenging everything is than it is on land. And it's already an amazing thing on land.

[B]

Yeah. So fingers crossed that all works out for me. It follows, it follows puffins, guillemots and razorbills and sometimes northern Fulmars with great ease and agility. So that's what I'm hoping. The downside, of course, is once it does that, it tends to. Well, I tend to take. I'm sure you do as well. You tend to take a lot of photographs.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

[B]

The challenge will be afterwards.

[A]

Absolutely. Absolutely. Hey, with the. With the 1535, are you going to have the ability to zoom it within the housing, or did you get a zoom reading everything like that? Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

Yeah, Both. So I used the zoom rings that you can get with these housings for the. Both the 70 to 200 and the wider stuff for the R5 lenses as well. And actually, with the 70 to 200, a lot of the images I've got with sort of the puffins and the waves, that was shot at around sort of 80 to 110 millimeters. And even that produces some nice split imagery.

[A]

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. But, man, I think you've probably experienced it enough. It's amazing when you start getting sub 24 millimeter, just how ridiculously close you have to get to stuff. It's just not even funny anymore. It's like you think you look at it with your eye. You're like, oh, okay, it's right there. And then you put your. The lens, and you're like, it's a speck in the frame. It's nowhere near, you know, like, it doesn't count. It's really, really frustrating. But part of the fun challenge.

[B]

Yeah. And. And we've. We've used floating rigs with GoPros on, which have worked unbelievably well. And I think the GoPro lens depends who you talk to. Sort of sits between sort of 8 and 12 miles. And what we've done there is actually created a floating rig and allowed it just to float on its own away from us with decoys on. So it sort of drifts into the middle of the rafts.

[A]

Oh, how cool.

[B]

Records stuff as we go. So some of the video that you'll see associated with the images is taken using that technique.

[A]

Yeah. What a wonderful. Just the whole thing is incredible. So with this, I. I assume this started as just a curiosity, and let's see what we can do here. But now you've kind of dialed things in. You figured it out, and you're consistently capturing amazing photos like this. So beyond just capturing beautiful photos for yourself, what are you doing with these photos? How are you using them? How are they being used out in the world? Because it seems like they're. They're really connecting with people, from what I can tell.

[B]

So all of this is part of a larger UK Coasts and Islands Biodiversity and Climate Change project that's heading towards a book associated with schools. So there's a new school qualification in the UK called GCSE, but for natural history specifically. So it's going to be tied into parts of the curriculum there which talks around all the elements of that sort of coastal wildlife, biodiversity side of things. In terms of the positive shifts, the impact of tourism, which in general I've only ever seen as positive. The numbers going up in certain parts of the uk, the numbers going down in the other. The little strange conservation stories of, you know, we spent a week on a place called St Kilda, which is the most westerly point in the British Isles, which is a ancient volcanic rock with really high towering cliffs of hundreds of meters. It's got giant gana trees, it's got some of the biggest puffin colonies in the world. I think there's 300,000 pairs of puffins on the island. And there's a weird story. So like there's a. There's a lone snowy owl that got blown off course many years ago called Snedge who lives there. She eats the endemic giant mice that inhabit the island and for one reason or another she's decided not to leave. And that sort of interesting story around how weather and climate can create weird wildlife stories like a snowy owl living on a strange Scottish island that yeah, used to be in. It's one of the few places in the UK that's got both a people and an Animal World Heritage status because it's got a small old town that used to be there where a group of people used to live and they used to live on the street on the seabirds. So they used to catch gannets and fulmars and use them for food and various other things. And so it's got a. Quite a. An interesting anthropology anthropological side to it as long alongside the fact that there's over a million seabirds across the. The islands and the stacks which. And it's pretty impressive. So I think it's, you know, it's. It's informing people about these places that exist, the strange stories, the interesting research on Corey shearwaters that are there spending time at night as the Manx shear waters come into. Into the Pembrokeshire islands and sort of land and try to avoid the large gulls and they borrow a. Borrow away and there's two islands that house 80 of the world's population and what that means if you put an offshore wind farm between where they fly to and from.

[A]

Oh wow.

[B]

And the balance between that sort of climate mitigation solutions like wind and solar and the impact on wildlife and how you, how you get the balance point right and how you work with the Argentinian government where the other, in the summer, that's where the shearwaters go to, to make sure that that part of the world's protected alongside the, the bit where they breed as well. So there's lots of little insights and stories like that. And then of course, this winter there's been these puffing wrecks across the sort of northern part of France, Spain and Portugal where tens of thousands particularly have been washed up because of, I mentioned this sort of 60 days of rain in the UK, but there's been tens of days of storms which, yeah, more in essence, all that happens is the storms are consistent and consistent day after day after day after day. And the puffins can manage for probably two to five days, but after that, not feeding and being cold and battered and they just get washed up. Oh, well, I mean, ultimately the bulk of them won't have been washed up, they'll just die.

[A]

Gotcha. Sure.

[B]

So it'll be interest, it'll be interesting to see the puffin count numbers this year and whether that has had an impact because I think some of the estimates of the washed up puffins are in the tens of thousands.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Which probably then equates to anything between sort of four and ten times that out at sea. So, yeah, there could be quite a significant impact on, I suspect, the west coast colonies around Wales and then up to the, the Western Isles and Scotland. So we'll, that'll be an interesting observation as well this year.

[A]

Yeah, definitely. It's, it's incredible how this stuff affects them, but then also how resilient these birds can be sometimes. I don't know if you guys have seen it already, but from the, the time that the avian flu came through and really hit these seabird colonies pretty badly already, even from just a few years ago, it was interesting in visiting some of the colonies I do to see sort of a rebound and this sort of shift of like, you know, not fully mature birds actually coming in and mating and getting a partner that they otherwise wouldn't have when the colony was at full strength and stuff like that. And so it's kind of fascinating to watch sort of the resilience of these birds. And it's not to say that they can survive everything that, you know, climate change is throwing at them, but it is also at least somewhat positive to see like, wow, they just they really can figure some of this stuff out and. And survive just all these challenges over and over again.

[B]

Yeah, the. The sort of. That environmental plasticity, I think, as the biologists will call it, the shift in temperatures so they arrive a little bit earlier. The shift in availability of nesting or burrowing holes so they start breeding and a little bit earlier. They seem to be pretty good at that, particularly the orcs and the northern gannets. Now, the northern gannets, from what I'm seeing, is taking a little bit longer to sort of slowly bring up the numbers. And it's. The plus with the gannets is it's pretty easy to see if they are or they aren't because you can just look at the rocks.

[A]

Yeah, exactly, yeah.

[B]

If there's loads of gaps, you know, there's a problem. If all the gaps are filled, you know that it's recovering pretty well. But it's harder. It's harder with the puffins because puffin counting is very known, is known to be pretty tough, I would imagine, either out at sea, they're underground, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's all estimates, but we can sort of. I'm sure all the bright people in that world will be able to extrapolate the data and see what. What the impact has been over the last. Last six weeks or so.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. So I'm. I'm also curious, outside of all of this seabird stuff and being in the water there, I guess, is what I'm trying to say. Do you spend a lot of time trying to photograph them outside of that context, or are you usually just like, this is where you're putting all of your time and effort in during the seabird season is just being in the water?

[B]

No, it. It depends if, like, last year I was lucky to spend two full weeks on a place called Skokum in Pembrokeshire, which is a really small island that's quite tough to get on, looked after by a couple of very, very, very dedicated rangers, rich and gazelle, and being able to spend a long period of time, like two weeks and it was separated one in May, one in June. So you get like a contrast in terms of what's happening. So you'll get the beginning of the year where the birds are in, lots of coastal flowers, and then we were there at the end where the first of the razorbill chicks were jumping off the cliffs. Oh, so you can.

[A]

That's one record.

[B]

Record that full story. So I still do stuff like that. I don't do a huge amount of that sort of stuff. I. I Wouldn't say I'm a snob, but I very rarely take a portrait photograph of a seabird between. Sure. Nine in the morning and eight in the evening anymore, because there's. For me there's no point. Oh totally, yeah. Unless something really cool is happening. So I tend to focus on getting the best light possible using slightly different techniques or the in water stuff. And there's different opportunities in water around the uk. You know, down in Wales the razor bills are in very large numbers compared to the rest of the uk, so you've got opportunities with them. And then there's a few races in Scotland where the northern gannet's particularly good. We're looking at and thinking about is there anything we can do with the Manx she waters.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

So, you know, there's, there's different things that work and, and happen and you learn things. You know, when we're out with the blue sharks, you're obviously using chum to attract the sharks in before birds show.

[A]

Right, right up, don't they?

[B]

Yeah, exactly, yeah. So the northern Fulmars and the storm petrels will turn up. So you then think, oh well, actually there's, you know, you can do something alongside of all of this as well.

[A]

Man, now I'm already imagining storm petrels dancing on the water with your housing like that. I mean, you know, certainly not an easy task to do, but I could just imagine how stunning that would be as well. They're just so fun to watch, aren't they?

[B]

Yeah, they're amazing little birds.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, they all are. I, I also really love hearing your, your sort of dedication to sticking with the same subject and, and really just iterating on that and year after year and I really. Brian, I don't see it as being a snob at all. I see it as being selective and just simply trying to improve your craft and your photography and the look of the photos and why would you bother wasting your time out there in less than ideal light, you know. But all of these things I just, I connect with so much. You certainly do it at a level I think many wildlife photographers aspire to do it. But it's really impressive your commitment to sticking with these subjects and really just learning not only about the photography side of it, but about the subjects. And I think my last question for you before we wrap up the conversation is which do you find more important? The photographic side and technique or just learning more about the subjects you're working with?

[B]

I think it's really difficult to separate them off. I Think modern photography kit. If you're doing the simple online stuff, you can get some incredible images now with the technology that's available compared to when I was shooting on slide film many moons ago. I really enjoy learning about and watching, observing and gathering information on the subject. And I appreciate I'm in a privileged position to do that because not many people can spend two weeks on a small island in Wales just watching razorbills on the side of a cliff.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Not many people would probably want to,

[A]

but it's, you know, I would sign right up.

[B]

Well, if you ever get the opportunity to go to Skokum, it's probably the coolest seabird place in the world.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

It's, it's, it's phenomenal seaboard place in the northern hemisphere. I think it might struggle against South Georgia.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

But yeah, so, so I think learning the subject is, is really, really important once you've got, you know, a level of ability with your, with your camera equipment and that takes a little step up when you're doing it in the water.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And I would say if someone wants to get into it, there is opportunities around the world to do it in a safe and controlled environment. The guys at Celtic Deep in Pembrokeshire is a brilliant place to start. And I would say getting a GoPro that's waterproof, you don't have to worry about it and you can get a second hand GoPro for a couple of hundred dollars is a great place to kick it off and see what you do before you go down the very, very dangerous path. It's a dangerous, dangerous route. It's like, yeah, it's like the GoPro is the entry drug.

[A]

Well, and the funny thing is. Yeah, well, we're using kind of arguably the cheapest underwater housings to get into it. Right. Because we're not really diving with them. You're just doing surface level stuff. So it doesn't need to, to handle all that. And, and it's still incredibly expensive and, and challenging. And I, I assume you get this question all the time or at least maybe have to try and mitigate people from saying, oh, I want to do the same thing. Because it's just like you said in the beginning, it is nowhere near as easy as it seems. It's not just as easy as, oh, I can afford this housing, I throw my camera in it and then away I go. Because there's just, just simply putting it in the housing makes operating the camera so much more difficult right off the bat, doesn't it?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And I Think you just have to practice, learn what settings work, make it as easy as possible for you. And, yeah, I'm always quite surprised when I'm in the water and, you know, people have got their camera on a manual setting and are trying to adjust speed and aperture at the same time, and you're just like, dude, just like, literally put it on speed control, good old tv, stick it at thousandths of a second, put auto ISO on, and then if you're doing anything, take and add a little bit of light using the rear dial to exposure comp. Yeah, exactly. And beyond that, just take the photos.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. No, I've gone with aperture priority with a minimum shutter speed of whatever I need to record, you know, to get the action that way if I need to. The shutter speed can just rock it up on its own if it gets brighter, because just like you said, it's like, minimize as much as you can that you have to change, you know, And I do it the exact same way. It's just like, give me that exposure compensation so I can go lighter, darker as needed, and that's that. Yeah. Wow. It's just. I could talk to you forever about this. It is so incredibly fascinating, and I really can't wait to see what you continue to come up with, because it seems like every year you're continuing to push the boundaries of what is possible with this style of photography and those birds.

[B]

Yeah, well, we've got a few ideas for this season, so we'll see if we can add something slightly different.

[A]

Nice. Yeah. And I think that's such another key point that I just want to applaud you for doing, which is you didn't just figure out a basic way and you're like, okay, that's good. I'm just going to keep doing the same thing. You're continuing to try and come up with new ideas, more creativity, more interesting approaches, and I think. I'm guessing that's just. That's just part of your DNA, isn't it? You can't just kind of keep doing the same thing over and over again, right?

[B]

No, I enjoy trying to do something sometimes just a little bit different, but working on it, working and keep on developing it. So we're gonna. We're gonna try this year to maybe get a little bit further offshore and see if we can. The ultimate goal would be can we get them fishing underwater? But, yeah, that'll be tough.

[A]

Yeah, definitely. Well, continued success with it all. Thank you so much for taking some time to hop on the show. I know you are busy all the time. It's been a challenge to align our schedules, but I'm glad we finally made it happen. It's been really wonderful chatting with you and hearing about this. And like I said, I can't wait to see more of what you keep coming up with.

[B]

Cool. It was really good fun speaking to you.

[A]

Thanks again. Hey, this is Ray Hennessey. Thanks so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed the conversation and got something helpful from it. I also hope you join me for the next episode. Please subscribe and your favorite podcast player and help me spread this podcast around by sharing with your friends and fellow photographers. It would also be a huge help for the podcast if you could give it a five star rating and possibly a review wherever you listen to the podcast. Thanks again and I'll see you on the next episode.