WW 902: Nothing to Declare - Passkey providers, Halo Studios, "commodity"

Summary

Windows Weekly (Episode 902: Nothing to Declare - Passkey Providers, Halo Studios, "Commodity")

Recorded Wednesday, October 9, 2024

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Introduction

In the latest episode of Windows Weekly, host Leo Laporte is joined by Microsoft veterans Paul Thurrott and Richard Campbell, who are broadcasting remotely from Mexico City and Ibiza, respectively. Despite their locations, nothing hinders their commitment to delivering the latest news and insights about Microsoft’s expansive ecosystem, from Windows updates to Xbox developments.

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Microsoft's 24H2 Update and Patch Tuesday

[04:00 - 06:43]
The trio delves into the recent Patch Tuesday, highlighting a significant acknowledgment from Microsoft regarding the 24H2 update. Paul Thurrott notes, “Every month, when Patch Tuesday came... but now this is out for everybody” (04:46). Previously, 24H2 was an insider’s secret, but it has now been officially listed on Microsoft's support site, allowing broader visibility into its updates since June.

Richard Campbell adds, “Did he Bing yet? Maybe it was only on Bing” (05:20), emphasizing the initial obscurity of the update. Leo Laporte criticizes Microsoft’s lack of indexing, questioning, “Why would they not have an index? That's crazy” (05:33). Despite the delayed rollout, the update mirrors previous cumulative updates, offering minor enhancements like the reinstatement of the "Sign Out" option in the Start menu (06:43).

Paul Thurrott mentions, “We all are on this kind of weird, controlled feature release, CFR roulette wheel” (06:29), expressing skepticism about the controlled and unpredictable nature of feature releases under the new update strategy.

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Passkey Support in Windows 11

[14:00 - 20:36]
The conversation shifts to Microsoft’s introduction of passkey support in Windows 11, a move aimed at enhancing security by replacing traditional passwords. Paul explains, “It doesn't do anything” initially, referring to the basic implementation (14:00), but highlights recent improvements. Passkeys are now stored securely, tied to Microsoft accounts, and integrated with Windows Hello for authentication.

Leo Laporte probes the functionality, asking, “How does it work?” (14:00), while Paul elaborates on the backend improvements: “They're working with the maintainers of the spec at the FIDO alliance” (16:12), ensuring that passkeys become more versatile and interoperable across devices. However, challenges remain as browsers, operating systems, and password managers vie for control over passkeys, leading Paul to remark, “This is early days. This will be standardized somewhat from a UI perspective” (17:15).

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Google's Antitrust Struggles

[40:49 - 53:09]
A significant portion of the discussion centers on Google's mounting antitrust challenges in the United States. Paul Thurrott outlines recent legal setbacks, stating, “They are going to probably get a consent decree in the end” (41:42). The Department of Justice has been pushing to break up Google's dominance in areas like the Google Play Store and Android app ecosystem, reminiscent of Microsoft’s late '90s antitrust battles.

Richard Campbell expresses skepticism about the feasibility of fully breaking up such a colossal entity, suggesting a consent decree focused on behavioral changes might be more realistic. Paul draws parallels to Microsoft's experience, noting, “The Microsoft case has an asterisk because they were going to be broken up” (50:24), and emphasizes the potential for Google to follow a similar path in settling with regulators.

Both agree that setting legal precedents could lead to a more competitive landscape, but caution that the remedies must avoid unintended harms. Paul concludes, “We're going to split up parts of it unless they can settle” (52:50), indicating a cautious optimism about regulatory actions fostering a healthier market.

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AI Developments and Microsoft's Copilot

[67:07 - 75:00]
AI remains a hot topic, with the hosts dissecting Satya Nadella’s recent LinkedIn post declaring large language models (LLMs) as a "commodity." Paul interprets Nadella’s statement as a strategic move to position Microsoft at the forefront of AI integration, emphasizing the company’s investment in tailoring AI models with business-specific data: “They steer Grounding and fine tune those models with your business data and workflow” (72:50).

Richard Campbell highlights the rapid commoditization of AI technologies, noting, “We've very quickly reached the point where we have alternatives in an LLM market” (71:03). The trio discusses the competitive landscape, acknowledging that major players like Google, Microsoft, and Amazon are racing to dominate the AI space by enhancing their offerings and integrating AI into their products efficiently.

Paul underscores the challenge of monetizing AI swiftly, stating, “They are trying to monetize it so quickly… It’s a declaration of war” (70:54). The conversation reflects on OpenAI's foundational role and the evolving dynamics as AI becomes more accessible and integrated across platforms.

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Xbox News: Halo Studios Transition to Unreal Engine 5

[93:00 - 101:57]
Transitioning to Xbox-related news, Paul announces a major shift for the Halo franchise: “Microsoft revealed in a very convoluted way that they are shifting Halo to the Unreal Engine 5” (93:00). This strategic move aims to leverage Unreal Engine 5’s advanced rendering capabilities, resolving previous challenges associated with maintaining a proprietary engine.

Richard Campbell approves, stating, “Don't build your own engine. It's a mistake” (93:43). The discussion includes insights into the development process, with Paul showcasing a video demonstration of Halo environments recreated in Unreal Engine 5. The hosts commend the improved graphics, noting how the game's visual fidelity has significantly enhanced.

Leo Laporte concurs, remarking, “Unreal Engine is, let's face it, really unbelievably gorgeous” (94:55). Paul highlights the technical prerequisites for the upcoming Halo titles, emphasizing the need for powerful hardware to support the new engine’s demands: “They have to submit your DxDag file… It’s a whole new level” (95:03).

The conversation wraps up with anticipation for Halo 2’s release, with the team optimistic about the improved visual and gameplay experience, albeit recognizing the delays and technical challenges involved.

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Travel Anecdotes and Device Management

[01:08 - 28:45]
Interspersed with technical discussions, the hosts share personal stories about their travels. Paul recounts his experience flying into Mexico City with multiple devices and facing security checks: “I walked right out of there, and I got grabbed by a security guy” (27:58). Leo and Richard express similar frustrations, highlighting the challenges of traveling with numerous gadgets and the inconsiderate nature of some security protocols.

Leo mentions the use of stylish, locally-made shirts from Mexico, contrasting them with the more casual attire typically seen: “They have some beautiful, like, muslin, very thin cotton with embroidery shirts. I love those” (10:17). The trio humorously discusses the difficulties of managing multiple devices across different time zones and the inconveniences of BYOD (Bring Your Own Device) policies.

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Data Management Tools and Recommendations

[23:07 - 84:15]
The hosts recommend various tools for data management and productivity. Leo endorses Raindrop.io as a superior bookmark manager, praising its seamless synchronization across devices: “Raindrop is everywhere. I have it on all my machines, on my phone” (23:28). Paul expresses a preference for reading articles directly, contrasting it with Raindrop’s presentation features: “Maybe I'm old, but I like to actually read the thing” (25:03).

Additionally, the discussion touches on data security solutions like 1Password Extended Access Management, which integrates with platforms like Microsoft 365 and Google Workspace to secure user credentials and manage unapproved devices and apps: “It ensures that every user credential is strong and protected, every device is known and healthy, and every app is visible” (101:07).

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Whiskey Awards and Recommendations

[106:00 - 126:15]
In a departure from tech topics, the hosts delve into the world of whiskey, discussing the prestigious San Francisco World Spirits Competition. They spotlight Talisker’s 45-year-old Glacial Edge, lauded as the "number one spirit in the world." Paul introduces the story behind this rare whiskey, explaining its unique aging process facilitated by adventure partner James Aiken: “They took a bunch of barrel staves… and exposed them to the high Arctic” (115:30).

Leo and Richard engage in lighthearted banter about the impracticality and exorbitant price of such rare whiskies, with Richard humorously expressing skepticism: “No whiskey is that good… It's a lot of money for a drink” (117:38). Despite the skepticism, they acknowledge the craftsmanship and storied history behind such accolades, recommending the documentary on the making of Stalker 2 for its compelling narrative intertwining with AI and gaming.

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Book Recommendations

[107:20 - 109:08]
Paul Thurrott recommends several insightful books, including AI Snake Oil, which demystifies artificial intelligence, and Jason Schreier’s Play Nice, a deep dive into Blizzard Entertainment’s tumultuous history. These recommendations aim to provide listeners with a deeper understanding of technology’s intersection with business and culture.

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Final Thoughts and Upcoming Segments

As the episode wraps up, Leo encourages listeners to support the show by joining the club, emphasizing benefits like ad-free versions and exclusive content. The hosts maintain their signature blend of technical analysis, personal anecdotes, and light-hearted humor, promising more engaging content in future episodes.

Notable Quotes:

• Paul Thurrott: “Why would they not have an index? That's crazy” (05:33).
• Leo Laporte: “Sign out is back. So huge change. There's not much” (06:43).
• Richard Campbell: “Don't build your own engine. It's a mistake” (93:43).

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Conclusion

Episode 902 of Windows Weekly offers a comprehensive exploration of Microsoft’s latest updates, the evolving landscape of AI, significant antitrust battles involving Google, and exciting developments in the Xbox and gaming world. Interwoven with personal stories and practical recommendations, Paul Thurrott, Richard Campbell, and Leo Laporte deliver a rich and engaging episode that caters to both tech enthusiasts and casual listeners alike.

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Thank you for tuning into Windows Weekly. Join the club at www.twit.tv/clubtwit for exclusive content and support the show. Stay updated by subscribing to our podcast on your favorite platform.

Transcript

[Leo Laporte]

It's time for Windows Weekly. Paul Therat is here. Well, actually, he's in Mexico City. Richard Campbell's here. He's in Ibiza. But they are. You know what? Nothing will stop them from doing Windows Weekly. We'll talk about Patch Tuesday. Microsoft finally admits 24H2 is a thing. Will Google be broken up? And how. Plus, some very good Xbox news if you're a Halo fan. All that more coming up next. Windows Weekly podcasts you love from people you trust.

[Paul Thurrott]

This is Twit.

[Leo Laporte]

This is Windows Weekly with Paul Thurad and Richard Campbell. Episode 902, recorded Wednesday, October 9, 2024. Nothing to declare. It's time for Windows Weekly, the show we cover the latest news from Microsoft. And this is Today. This today is going to be our Spanish language edition, because we have Paul. He's in Mexico City. Hi, Paul.

[Paul Thurrott]

Hola, Leo.

[Leo Laporte]

Hola, Paul. And in Ibiza, which I believe, last time I checked, is in Spain.

[Richard Campbell]

Is part of Spain.

[Leo Laporte]

Part of Spain, Richard. It's an island part of Spain. Richard Campbell.

[Paul Thurrott]

Hi, Richard.

[Richard Campbell]

Just off the coast of Valencia. It's beautiful here.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, it is gorgeous. I love Ibiza. And then the guy who founded Cirque du Soleil built a massive mansion there out on the point.

[Paul Thurrott]

Does gates fly there all the time?

[Leo Laporte]

I probably. And there's a little mini Stonehenge that he built. Kind of like a little stone.

[Richard Campbell]

As you do.

[Leo Laporte]

As one does right across the way. So just.

[Richard Campbell]

All right, I got my arrow update on January 10th.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, we both are comparing. This is ridiculous. So you may remember, I've almost forgotten, back in July, we ordered the Qualcomm Snapdragon Elite developer kit from Thundercom Technology, and it's been putting off, putting off, putting off. There have been all sorts of hitches. Somebody, Jeff Gerstman got one or who got one? Somebody Girling got one. But we now have the same date. January 10, 2025. Next year we're going to chip out.

[Paul Thurrott]

By the time this thing arrives.

[Leo Laporte]

I know. Yeah, I don't want it. Well, didn't they send us an email saying you don't have.

[Richard Campbell]

You could change it?

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

But I mean, that read like a threat.

[Leo Laporte]

You got 10% off. What do you want?

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, no, I think I'll definitely make them ship it here and then I'll return it.

[Leo Laporte]

Ship it to Spain.

[Paul Thurrott]

Exactly. And then Leo will get it.

[Richard Campbell]

There you go.

[Leo Laporte]

There's one circulating, just going around.

[Paul Thurrott]

Just keep it clean. We're gonna move it along.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, right.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

Well, that's what they do with the review units sometimes. Right. You get old review units that are kind of a little beat up and a little sticky. Sticky. And sometimes have pictures that you just weren't on there.

[Paul Thurrott]

I. I've never seen that, but I have actually. Have you?

[Leo Laporte]

Way back in the day. Yeah, I had a phone from, I think Sprint that had somebody else's pictures on it.

[Richard Campbell]

Oh, boy.

[Leo Laporte]

I don't do loners anymore, so I'm missing out on all the fun these days, but. All right, so back to the business at hand, I. E. Microsoft.

[Paul Thurrott]

And dare I say, it is around here in Microsoft.

[Richard Campbell]

Careful.

[Paul Thurrott]

Therefore, I don't know what that was all about.

[Leo Laporte]

Let's talk Windows 11, gentlemen.

[Paul Thurrott]

Speaking of former empires.

[Richard Campbell]

Nice.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. So, yes, yesterday was Patch Tuesday, the most wonderful time of the month until week D comes.

[Richard Campbell]

And after months and months of anticipation, 24H2 is a real boy.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. So 22, 23, 24H2 all got cumulative updates, basically the same update. There were actually two separate updates. This was the last one for 22H2, as we know. It's going out of service at the end of the month, I guess, or at some point in this month. And for the first time, 24H2 is on the Microsoft support site. And what I mean by that is if you Google something like Microsoft Updates or whatever, you can see a list of all of the updates that Microsoft has ever released for each of the versions of Windows 11. But 24H2 has been missing from that collection of.

[Richard Campbell]

Yes, it's just kind of not been real. It's just been an insider's thing, right?

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. So every month, when Patch Tuesday came, or week D as well, Laurent, the guy writes the news, would text me and say, hey, could you look this up? Because I can't find it. Because you can't unless you know the KB number, you could never go find the support article linked to the update. So I would do that every month and find it. So those articles were all out there kind of floating, but not linked to anything. But now this is a page, which is weird, right? Yeah. So they went back. You can get all the updates now going back to June there and see what they were.

[Richard Campbell]

Did he Bing yet? Maybe it was only on Bing.

[Paul Thurrott]

Did he Bing? No, you actually. You couldn't do it like you could. You could if you. Unless you had the. If you had the KB number, you could, but you needed that.

[Leo Laporte]

Why would they not have an index? That's crazy.

[Paul Thurrott]

I. Why is a. Is a version of Windows real if it doesn't fall in the woods. I don't know.

[Leo Laporte]

But they say, well, nobody knows the link. It's private. Yeah, nobody knows the KB number.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, like, I don't know. If you bought a Copilot Plus PC in June, July, whatever, you're getting updates every month. You might want to know what they are. I mean, it's fully supported by Microsoft. You could have installed it early using that tip I had back in May. Fully supported Microsoft's business. Customers could be deploying this in their environments. But yeah, it was like it didn't exist. So now that it's out for everybody, as it was as of what, October 1st, I believe, and now we've had our first patch Tuesday, it's like, hey, look, it's our first update. Except we've actually had 19 of them so far, such as Microsoft. Anyway, no surprises. We know the things that were. We knew the things that were coming. None of them are particularly well, actually, one of them is pretty cool. So if you hit the start button and then click on your little picture, Sign out is back. They brought it back out. What's that?

[Leo Laporte]

Sign out.

[Paul Thurrott]

Sign out. Sorry. Oh, sign out used to be available there. They replaced that menu with a new interface that's pointless. And they put it under a little submenu. Now it's brought back out. So huge change. There's not much. And like I said, even though the KB or the cumulative updates were different between 22, 23 and 24H2, it's basically the same, you know, same set of updates. So, okay, I would say right now there's probably a bunch of people experiencing not a lot new because even if they do get 24H2, they probably had all those features anyway, you know, so it's. We're all on this kind of weird, controlled feature release, CFR roulette wheel. And we'll just see where, you know, one day you're going to wake up and there's going to be new features and. Or a new feature and that's, you know, that's our world. So there you go. And then I'm just going to throw this out here because I feel like people listening or watching this might have the book, but the Windows 11 field guide is being updated for 24H2. That's going to be one of the big things I do this month. And I've already. I don't know the number, but I've already updated several of the chapters. They're all kind of the basic chapters, but hopefully I think each one of them has at least Something new in it. So if you own the book, download it again because it's been updated. It will be. And every week or so, I'll send out an email. So isn't that sad?

[Leo Laporte]

You can never go on vacation. Really?

[Paul Thurrott]

Because, Michael, I'm just shifting locations. I'm not on vacation. I'm just here.

[Leo Laporte]

You know, if I were in Mexico City, I'd kind of want to at least pretend I was on vacation.

[Paul Thurrott]

So, I mean, well, we. We eat out a lot. Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

You're a work in the morning guy, right?

[Paul Thurrott]

Like, that's.

[Richard Campbell]

I do that most of the time, too. Work till lunch and then you. Off you go.

[Leo Laporte]

And that's actually great. That's a good life.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. Yeah, that's my. That's my home swap schedule. Although we don't do home swaps anymore is nice, you know, except I'm asleep.

[Leo Laporte]

In the morning kind of guy.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, actually, I did comment to my, you know, we were walking around and I said, you know, I haven't really taken any pictures. You know, usually I always walk around like, click, click, click, click, you know, like, whatever.

[Leo Laporte]

And.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, yeah, We've kind of done the same things enough times where it's like, I don't know, or I'll take pictures. And then this is.

[Richard Campbell]

This is how, you know that place is becoming home.

[Paul Thurrott]

Right.

[Richard Campbell]

Because you don't want to photograph it anymore.

[Leo Laporte]

Wow.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. And the other. The other way, you know, is, you know, we've been gone for a couple of months, right? So we're walking down the street and then you stop and you'll like, that's new. You know, like, there's a. Wow, you really are local business or a sign or, you know, something's changed. I took a picture of a thing, I don't know what's called. Not a cornice, but something up on the corner of a building. Like, I don't think that was there.

[Richard Campbell]

Wow.

[Paul Thurrott]

And I went and looked up. I went through all my pictures. I'm like. And I'm like, there it is. No, it's not there. So it was new. Like, I actually noticed this local weird little concrete thing on a building, you.

[Richard Campbell]

Know, There you go.

[Paul Thurrott]

But, yeah, this is the. I don't know. Whatever. This is my life. I don't know. Anywho. Yeah. So I like Leo's shirt. I wouldn't wear that here. I'm here. I don't need to wear a shirt.

[Leo Laporte]

But that's a good point, you know, Would you. If you looked at me wearing this shirt walking down the street, tourists Tourists.

[Paul Thurrott]

Probably wearing flip flops, carrying a MacBook, talking loudly on a phone. You know, I could peg you as an American in, like, two seconds.

[Leo Laporte]

I'd like to put my order in now if I can.

[Paul Thurrott]

Sell, sell, sell, sell.

[Richard Campbell]

I'm never coming back.

[Paul Thurrott]

Welcome back to Romanerte.

[Leo Laporte]

I will have you know these shirts are made in Mexico. In. Well, San Miguel is sort of Mexico. San Miguel de Allende, by local seamstresses with local print fabrics.

[Paul Thurrott]

Nice.

[Leo Laporte]

And I just bought five more because I love them so much. And I had stopped wearing them, you know, I was wearing a neck. Not a necktie, but a jacket, a blazer, and a dress shirt.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, you used to be very professional.

[Leo Laporte]

I remember I decided I don't need to be professional. I'm home.

[Richard Campbell]

So what happens from working from home? Right.

[Leo Laporte]

I actually thought it actually looks a little better in the colorful.

[Paul Thurrott]

I think so, too, actually.

[Leo Laporte]

It looks great to wear a shirt that has some.

[Richard Campbell]

Something going on as the pop. Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

I would tell you, though, walking around Mexico City at least, and probably a lot of Mexico, you wouldn't see a nice shirt like that. Usually, I mean, of course, people do dress up, but most of the people here are wearing, like, the throwaway shirts. It would be like the team that lost the super bowl one year, but they made the shirts, you know? Or you'll see a guy wearing, like, a Red Sox sweatshirt and a Yankees.

[Leo Laporte]

Hat, and he's like, dude, Sergeant Shriver for President shirt. Things like that.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, it's just, you know, it's old stuff. It's where shirts go to die.

[Leo Laporte]

But, you know, Mexico. And I guess it's more dressy, but they have some beautiful, like, muslin, very thin cotton with embroidery shirts. I love those.

[Paul Thurrott]

And of course, here, because it's 65 degrees during the day now, people are wearing those puffy Michelin jackets you would wear in the winter. It's so cold, they're all freaking out. We walked in in shorts to this bar we go to. Everyone's wearing winter coats.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, that's.

[Paul Thurrott]

What's going on in here. Did the freezer break open or something? Yeah, very strange.

[Leo Laporte]

Very funny. All right, well, there is our travelogue brief. Now let's continue with the exciting Windows news.

[Paul Thurrott]

So since. No, not that. Since last week's release of 24H2. I was going to say since Patch Tuesday. Although actually, one of these has happened since Microsoft has started churning on the builds again in the Windows Insider preview.

[Richard Campbell]

Now, 24H2 is out of the Insider, so we get new stuff.

[Paul Thurrott]

Well, so no, not exactly. Right. This is where things get complicated. So if I'm. See, I don't even know off the top of my head, I believe with Dev, Dev is in fact. Let me just look to be sure. I don't want to say this. If it's a mistake, it will say here somewhere, I think Dev is still on the. Yeah, still based on the 24H2 branch or fork or whatever. So these are updates that will come to 24H2 over the next, you know, several months. Gary is not tied to anything. The last time I checked, Beta was tied to 23H2. Well, actually I should look that one up too. Let's see if that's still the case because, you know, 2323 H2, I almost beef is that is also carrying forward. Right. So they're going to probably get the same sorts of updates, you know, alongside 24H2. So I think it's just Canary that's not really tied to anything for now.

[Richard Campbell]

So Maybe that's Windows 12.

[Paul Thurrott]

You know, I spent a lot of time speculating about Windows 12 last year. I'm going to hold off on that for now because 24H2 was supposed to be Windows 12 and someone decided to reel that in at the last second.

[Richard Campbell]

So I suspect we could just wait till. Wait till Apple releases a new version of Mac os and then I think.

[Paul Thurrott]

Maybe they need to change Copilot in Windows 11 two more times before we get to Windows 12. I don't know. It's kind of hard to say for Windows and Windows.

[Richard Campbell]

For Copilot.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yes. Right. Yeah. I was writing a bit in the book about this, the Copilot versus Copilot plus thing. And this will be endlessly fascinating until both these terms are gone. Not fascinating, confusing until it's not fascinating in the slightest. It's just confusing until one or both go away eventually, which I think they will. Anywho, the dev build has added such things as customizing that copilot key that nobody wanted.

[Richard Campbell]

Right.

[Paul Thurrott]

And then some other stuff related to some of the stuff we've already talked about, the new sandbox that's coming, which looks kind of interesting, et cetera, but nothing major. And then we just got a build of Canary today as well, which is not particularly interesting, actually. There's not much going on there. I think right now what we're seeing is a lot of these builds, even though they're different channels, are kind of aligning from a feature standpoint, just like we see out in stable with 23 and 24 inch. Okay. We have a bunch of other stuff related to Windows that will come up right now. And then later it's kind of split up, but the passkey bit is. In 23H2, Microsoft released and announced for some reason, passkey Support in Windows 11. There's not much.

[Leo Laporte]

How does it work?

[Paul Thurrott]

It doesn't. That's the easiest way to say it. It doesn't. It doesn't do anything.

[Leo Laporte]

I'm curious because passkeys, I mean, I. Yeah. With my password manager, that kind of makes sense.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep.

[Leo Laporte]

I use it with my phone. That kind of makes sense. Would Windows 11 have a. Some sort of secure enclave where it.

[Paul Thurrott]

Would store your password keys and in fact, it does. Yes. And so they, they do the same thing you see on mobile. It's tied to your account, Your Microsoft account. Yeah, it is.

[Leo Laporte]

Is it tied to that computer though?

[Paul Thurrott]

No. Oh, sorry. Yes. The answer is yes. But they also have passkey support separately in your Microsoft account. So one of the. So I should just say, just to kind of frame this, when they announced this support last year, it was very basic and they didn't explain it very well. But what I discovered was that when you sign into a Windows 1123H2+ computer, or newer computer, I should say it actually creates a passkey for your Microsoft account or your Enter ID account. When you do that, there's not much you can do with that thing. It's. It's kind of silly. But I suppose if you're using Microsoft Edge and you sign into the Microsoft something something website, it would pass that through. You'd have to authenticate with Windows hello, which could be as simple as a pin. It's kind of always been the case that the difference is that it was saved as a passkey. This is kind of new. But then they spent the next year not doing anything else with it. And you know, when I looked at it probably in December, it just wasn't much there. Since then, they've added partial support for passkeys to the Microsoft account as well. That again, same thing. Not full support. It's actually more full featured in your Microsoft account than it is in Windows 11. So yesterday or the day before they announced it's not here yet, but in the coming weeks or days or whatever, they will be updating the passkey Support in Windows 11. Actually, one of these is pretty cool because they're doing that portable passkey thing, right? They're going to tie it to your account. You're going to authenticate with Windows hello again. And once you do that on one computer that will be available to you on other computers. So this is the thing that's not in the spec, but Microsoft is working with the maintainers of the spec at the FIDO alliance and it will become part of it. Right. So when you see companies like dashlane, I know does this proton in proton pass.

[Leo Laporte]

And I think bit warden doesn't.

[Paul Thurrott]

Bit warden1 password, et cetera.

[Leo Laporte]

So our sponsor.

[Richard Campbell]

The problem right now with passkeys is that you've got the browser, the operating system and your plugin trying to compete for who gets your passkey.

[Leo Laporte]

Right?

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

And you really want to settle on one, I think.

[Richard Campbell]

Right. You want to place.

[Paul Thurrott]

There are also implementations where you'll sign into something in a web browser on desktop, let's say. And it says it will just go to passkey. And you're like, nice. So you say, yes, I'll do this. And then it puts up a QR code because it can only work off the passkey that's on your phone. And it's like, guys, I have a passkey on this system. So I think this is just. Yeah, I think it's early days. This will be standardized somewhat from a UI perspective. We'll get there.

[Leo Laporte]

But in Windows defense, it's the same on every platform.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

It's not anybody's, by the way, right now.

[Paul Thurrott]

Well, everyone who's used an Apple device knows that Apple has a very unique take on 2fa. Right. That when you sign into Apple's website or into one of their services or whatever it is, it pops up an alert on another Apple device.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, that's kind of cool if you have another Apple device.

[Paul Thurrott]

It's cool if you have another Apple device or have any Apple device. Right. So if I'm on a Windows computer and I want to go to Apple Music on the web, I'll just make something up. It's going to throw a thing out right now. I was recently in a circumstance where I didn't have any Apple device with me and I had never had that happen. I was like, what's gonna happen here? But actually they just fall back to, yeah, you could do it with text messages. But they. The way they do it is very interesting because they don't present it as a choice. You're doing this.

[Leo Laporte]

Right.

[Paul Thurrott]

Right. And then if it fails or you have to say, look, I can't do this, then you can go do something else. Honestly.

[Leo Laporte]

Which is what you kind of want because.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

You don't want the bad guy your project.

[Leo Laporte]

Right.

[Paul Thurrott]

I do like that. And that's why it reminds me of the passkey experience I see sometimes in Windows and probably on the web on mobile too, but mostly in Windows, where that thing I described, it comes up with a QR code or something. It's like, guys, I have a passkey right here. It's in the computer you're running on.

[Leo Laporte]

You should see that.

[Paul Thurrott]

I know. So this is on Microsoft, I think, to some degree, but I think this world is just confusing for everybody anyhow.

[Richard Campbell]

I think there's conversations in the final alliance and then at the same time, people, right? And so I think they're building these implementations and then using them in the conversations. The same way that HTML5 went through its iterations, with each of the browser manufacturers just putting features out there. And we were fools to use them because they would suddenly kick them away, too. But then they would use them as a negotiating tactic in the committee.

[Leo Laporte]

One thing the FIDO alliance did at first, and I think is still existing, is they didn't have a way to export passkeys to move them from platform to platform. I think that was a security feature.

[Paul Thurrott]

But I think it's increasingly just like Microsoft did. We recall look for it's on device, it's this device, it's isolated. It sounds good from a kind of a security posture perspective. But if we have encryption and these services are secure, we have two fa, et cetera. I mean, come on. There's always this battle between convenience and security, and convenience always wins. I can't tell you. It freaks me out. Even technical people, you talk to them. I have friends who don't have a passcode on their phone. Like, it's too much time.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, that's terrible.

[Paul Thurrott]

What are you doing? Your entire life is on this device. Come on, man. But I think there is a. Passkeys have kind of a bad rap. I think the way this will be presented in the future is that it's passwordless is what we're really talking about. And it's a 2fa kind of a thing. And we all have these, like something, you know, something, whatever. But it really is the most convenient way to do this thing, the most secure way. And I think for most people, that's some form of something on their phone, whatever, you know, that we had a hard time accepting this with recall. I don't know why that keeps coming up, but that Windows hello could somehow be secure enough that all the other stuff people complain about didn't matter. But when we authenticate on a phone, whether it's an authenticator app I'm trying to get into or a code that's being displayed or whatever it is. You know, I bring the thing up and it gives me choices sometimes or sometimes it makes me do something. But a lot of times it's facial. Sometimes it says, look, I want you to do the fingerprint. Sometimes you have to do this, Sometimes it sends a code, sometimes you type a code. Whatever it is, mix it up, just do that every time. And the idea is, whatever happens every time, you authenticate, it's passwordless, right? You're not typing in some stupid 26 digit password or whatever. So I think that's the goal, right?

[Richard Campbell]

That's always the bear, right? It's when getting a new device lit up like, oh yeah, I can't do a thing with this pixel until I log into my Google account. And that is a32random character password.

[Paul Thurrott]

So I, right, I have a. I use Pocket for Read later, right? It's a great service. I love it. Whatever. Mozilla bought it, fine. I like Mozilla a lot. No problem. At some point they said, look, you had some kind of, whatever account you had, we're going to transition this over to a. What used to be a Firefox account but now is a Mozilla account, I think. Excellent. I like Mozilla, I trust Mozilla, I don't care. And now they're like, all right, listen, you have to have two fa. We're going to protect this thing because God knows your Read later is so important that no one can see what you're reading on the web. So you have to do two fa. Now. I just said, I think this is the baseline. You should be, you should have to do this. And it should, you know, whatever. Theirs is particularly tedious. And because I use so many different computers, I have to sign into this thing twice on every computer because you need the one that goes into the browser actually at least twice, I should say, because that's how you can save an article later. You have the extension. So every browser. And I use four browsers, right? Or five even, depending on the computer. And then you have to sign in on the site. Even though you just signed into the extension, you still have to do it again. So I'm looking at Instapaper right now because I can't stand it. I just.

[Leo Laporte]

Can I make a recommendation? There's a program I use I really like and I've used it for some time. It's not free, it's like 20 bucks a month. It's called Raindrop I.O.

[Paul Thurrott]

Is that what someone. I think someone just recommended that to me.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah. So it's what, it's a book. It says it's a bookmark manager. Okay. That's the. Ostensibly, you know what it does, but it will like Pocket, save the whole.

[Paul Thurrott]

Article for reading later in a nice format without.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah. Well, I'll show you my Raindrop what I really like.

[Paul Thurrott]

Well, Leo, don't. It's supposed to have two fa and you. It's supposed to be protected.

[Leo Laporte]

I have the desktop app. Right. And so there's different ways you can look at your articles. You can use a list, but you can also do cards feed.

[Paul Thurrott]

Almost.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah. It's like an RSS feed. I'm actually. I've been moved all the shows that. You know, I used to use Pinboard as a bookmark manager. I moved all my shows over to this. I find it really great. So anyway, take a look at it. There's a free tier. You could certainly try it before you buy it.

[Paul Thurrott]

But I'm very happy someone just recommended.

[Richard Campbell]

And again, it's all about the sync between machines. So that doesn't matter what price you pay.

[Leo Laporte]

Raindrop is everywhere. I have it on all my machines, on my phone.

[Paul Thurrott]

Oh no, it's key. If I'm somewhere with my phone. I just want. I have five seconds. Whatever. I'm like, what's going here? You know, I just, I love, I love this kind of thing.

[Leo Laporte]

No, I have Raindrop and it works on Android, iOS, Mac, Windows. You know, it would work on Linux because there's a web interface. I think it's a really.

[Paul Thurrott]

Right.

[Leo Laporte]

I don't know, you know, for a read later. If it's ideal for read later it will do that. But it's, you know, I take. I take big excerpts from each article so I know what I'm talking about. You know. You know what you need Maybe some sort of thing with AI that would summarize like a Pocket with AI.

[Paul Thurrott]

Maybe I'm old, but I like to actually read the thing.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, you're crazy.

[Paul Thurrott]

I mean a lot of. A lot of it is. My use of this is split. I would say probably. Maybe I'll just say 50, 50. I'm not really sure. But between long form content that I actually do want to read.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

And I want it to be in this nice presentation, whatever. And then there are just things for me to remind me. So in the morning I'll look at it and say, oh yeah, I want to write about this thing. It's just.

[Leo Laporte]

That's what Raindrop's really good for. Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

Right.

[Leo Laporte]

And of course, if you. I mean, if you didn't have the read later, you could click the link and I pretty sure it will download the article and put a read later on it. But anyway, it's worth a look.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, I like it a lot.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah. What's going on?

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

So what are we doing here?

[Leo Laporte]

You want to talk about your. What laptops did you bring with you to. So beautiful.

[Paul Thurrott]

Oh, by the way, not to keep turning this into a travelogue, but one of the big stories about Mexico that people keep putting in front of me is this notion that you fly to Mexico and you have some kind of number of devices in your bag and they pull you aside, they make you pay a tax on this.

[Leo Laporte]

So I've never seen like you're importing these things.

[Paul Thurrott]

Right. Then you're going to sell them for sale.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

So I've always being apprised of this. I've always thought I will show them the emails from Lenovo or HP or whatever saying, see, I'm doing this for work and whatever.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

But I do worry about it. It's never happened, to my knowledge, in Mexico City. A friend of ours who visited us here a couple of years ago flew through Merida and it happened to him there. He paid $180.

[Leo Laporte]

Wow.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. And it happens very frequently, I think in Cancun. That's like the big thing.

[Leo Laporte]

So every time I come with many laptops and never had that happen.

[Paul Thurrott]

Every.

[Leo Laporte]

The stories I hit and miss. Right. Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

The third party or the third hand stories I hear always. It's always Cancun. Anyway, so we fly here. We flew her in a different airline because we flew through Dallas, it was Aero Mexico, and we flew into Terminal 2, which is not. We usually go and always go into Terminal 1. So this is new. It's a completely different experience. And at the end, there's these two lines where they're pushing all the bags through these machines to scan them. And I'm like, I came here with four laptops, two tablets and three and three phones.

[Leo Laporte]

This is all for personal use, man. It's all personal use doing work. So I'm like, I'm not pushing it, man. I'm just. It's for me, man.

[Paul Thurrott]

We get to the. We're right before this machine. There's two of them. You can. The line splits and I got into the middle between the two lines and I read the sign and the sign said, if you have nothing to declare, you can just walk by. You don't have to put your stuff in the back. No one was doing it. Everyone is lemming, like, going through the machine, Right.

[Richard Campbell]

They're not paying attention.

[Paul Thurrott]

So I read the sign. I said, I have nothing to declare. Of course, I always say, I do declare. Anyway. And I walked right out of there, and I got grabbed by a security guy, and he pulled me back in, and he made me put my bag through the machine.

[Leo Laporte]

Really?

[Richard Campbell]

Even though it said.

[Paul Thurrott]

And I said, but, sir, it's. It doesn't matter. We're doing it.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

So anyway, it went through, and I'm like, here we go. You can kiss. What is that, 360 bucks or whatever. So it went through, and it came out, and no one said anything, and I took my bag and I walked on out of there. And I don't have any idea what they were looking for. Clearly was not Mexico.

[Leo Laporte]

I've been to. There's a button there, and you hit the button as you're going through, and it randomly selects whether you go to the bag to look through them or not. I think that was in Cancun. I've seen it several times.

[Paul Thurrott]

I call this the royal treatment. I never want to be that guy because I always have so much stuff, you know, like, don't.

[Richard Campbell]

Please don't.

[Leo Laporte]

Really. I mean, honestly, if I. If I saw you had, like, several, like, four laptops.

[Paul Thurrott]

No, no, I. Listen, the bag is small. I look like a normal person.

[Leo Laporte]

You look like you're a.

[Paul Thurrott]

Like a serial killer. Might. You know, like, you might. You might fool people. But.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, well, you got.

[Paul Thurrott]

I don't understand why the bag didn't go through. And, like, stop. Go back. The guy.

[Leo Laporte]

That's one of those corner.

[Paul Thurrott]

That's what I was. And I'm like, you know. And then you never hear from me again. But I. Yeah, I don't know what they were. I don't. I don't know.

[Leo Laporte]

Do you have any special status? I mean, are you just an American tourist when you come in?

[Paul Thurrott]

I. Well, we have residents.

[Leo Laporte]

Residents.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

So I think you could say, look, I'm. I live here. I smuggle laptops for a living.

[Paul Thurrott]

Right. I go on this run every week. Man.

[Richard Campbell]

What's the problem?

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. I don't know. Oh, I also had two speakers. I forgot some of the stuff I had, so it doesn't matter. I brought a lot of stuff.

[Leo Laporte]

I had. I brought an entire podcast studio to Rhode island when I was visiting my mom so I could do the show from there. And I, of course, got pulled over.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yes.

[Leo Laporte]

And the guy's looking at, he says, a microphone, right? I think he knew who I was.

[Paul Thurrott]

Because it looks like a pipe bomb.

[Leo Laporte]

It does look exactly like a pipe bomb. I mean, it's scary.

[Paul Thurrott]

We had, we had a hub. We had a microphone. I'm sorry, go ahead.

[Leo Laporte]

But so he's. He knew before he even went in. This is gonna be a microphone, isn't it? I said, yeah, it's a microphone. He said, okay. He still looked and pulled it out, but yeah, yeah, yeah. I think he figured out what was going on. You look like a podcaster, kid.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, I look like a smuggler.

[Leo Laporte]

Well, I'm glad you made it through with your Lenovo Yoga Slim 7i15 Aura Edition.

[Paul Thurrott]

So actually that one was delivered to my apartment here. It was waiting for me when we arrived. I got the, the date, the day before we flew.

[Leo Laporte]

I got in and there's one waiting for him.

[Paul Thurrott]

I know the email. They ship the thing and I'm thinking, okay, I'll get it like next week, you know, or this, you know, now this week. And we got there and the guy said I had a. What do you say? Un paquete waiting for me. And so anyway. Yeah, yeah. So this is my first experience with the lunar lake.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, it's a lunar lake. Okay, neat.

[Paul Thurrott]

So now I have a lunar lake and also a Zen 5 laptop to kind of compare. So we'll see.

[Leo Laporte]

Looks pretty.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, it is pretty.

[Leo Laporte]

It's a. I like the yogas. I have. I've had several yogas.

[Paul Thurrott]

This one does that thing that I really like too, where it's a large screen. I think it's bigger. I think it's 15 point something. But it's. But it does the keyboard in the center, not with the numpad, you know, which I always have trouble with.

[Leo Laporte]

Thank you.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. Yep. I love it. So it's a beautiful machine and it is.

[Leo Laporte]

Looks like a Mac. Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

Well, I'm going to reach out to Ryan and talk to Ryan Trout. Sorry. And talk to him about this stuff. But we've talked about this a little bit. I was at IFA and where do these things land? And the consensus seems to be that intel did the anti intel thing and this thing is actually really good for.

[Leo Laporte]

Portability because it has performance and efficiency cores, that kind of thing.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, it's the thing they never really did, you know.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, they're copying. They're copying Arm.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. So, you know, assuming reliability is there and everything, it should be pretty good, especially for this sort of, you know, productivity device. Right. I threw Some games on there. I haven't had a chance to run them yet, but I'll compare that to the. To the.

[Richard Campbell]

And I think we. When we were doing a show with Mike, I talked about. I want to build a Copilot plus PC.

[Leo Laporte]

Can you.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, well, yeah, not yet, but that. It's coming. I.

[Leo Laporte]

They'd have to have what, Copilot plus motherboards.

[Paul Thurrott]

Well, the sticking point is going to be this Windows hello ESS thing right now. So to get the spec, you actually, you have to have the mpu. Everyone knows that. But, yeah, the thing that we don't really talk about that much is all the undercover stuff that has to be happening. Authentic stuff, all that stuff. Right? So you can't plug in an external webcam, and it's like, okay, well, you don't have Windows ESS anymore.

[Richard Campbell]

You need the SS caliber camera.

[Leo Laporte]

But you can buy those. They are for sale. Is there.

[Paul Thurrott]

Not for. Not for ess. No, not for ess. Right now, there's no excuse.

[Leo Laporte]

You could buy a Windows hello camera, but it's not.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, it just. So, but here's the thing. You have a Copilot plus PC. You're like, well, I have to use this webcam. I have to use this whatever device. Okay, you're not using Windows hello ESS anymore. You're just using Windows hello. Okay, but I mean, I'm still using the computer, so, you know, I still get all the features. There's no way that what Richard wants to do is not going to happen. It's just a matter of timing. So, yes, the next step is going to be PC makers selling, you know, desktops.

[Leo Laporte]

Can you build an EVO computer, for instance?

[Paul Thurrott]

No, because to get that spec, you have to submit a test to intel that shows you.

[Leo Laporte]

What I'm thinking is it's more like EVO than it is.

[Paul Thurrott]

Well, Copilot plus as a brand is that thing. It's a brand. Right. But you don't get anything special for having an EVO computer. When you have a Copilot plus PC, you get all those additional AI features. And they just announced a bunch more. Right.

[Leo Laporte]

So the OS looks at your hardware.

[Paul Thurrott]

And says, oh, yeah, you should be able to get. I can't imagine they're not going to allow this in some amount of time, right? We'll see.

[Leo Laporte]

You know them better than I, but it seems to me they would not allow that.

[Richard Campbell]

But I think I just want to. And I'm obviously thinking it has to be at least after November when whatever restrictions with Qualcomm pass.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. Well, plus the. You're going to want Arrow Lake, you're.

[Richard Campbell]

Going to want the six months after the announcements.

[Leo Laporte]

Okay.

[Paul Thurrott]

You want a faster machine. You want a desktop class chip in there for start. You want Luna Lake is not going.

[Leo Laporte]

To the Qualcomm Snapdragon Elite developer Kit.

[Paul Thurrott]

What do I have to do to get you into the Snapdragon today? Yeah, in January.

[Richard Campbell]

Well, and. And one of the things I suggested was that I'd actually build it on the Discord.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, I would love that if you did that.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh my God. I'll host that if you want. I would love.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. And. But here's the. Yes, here's the kicker on top of that is I normally take the old hardware and I give it to a student who needs a machine. Right. To help them build the machine at the same time. So I've now gotten looped into the local high school where we've moved up to now. So there's a whole conversation going on about actually doing the video production in the school with the students.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, that would be so great, Richard.

[Richard Campbell]

I think it'd be a lot of fun.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, we would. I would. I would kiss you right now if you weren't.

[Paul Thurrott]

This is turned into a very strange episode.

[Leo Laporte]

Everybody's kissing everybody else.

[Paul Thurrott]

I know. There's been more kissing since I've been here. Since then there has been in the past eight years.

[Leo Laporte]

It means you're in a happy place.

[Richard Campbell]

Anyway, I'm glad you're excited about that, Leo, because I think.

[Paul Thurrott]

I love that if you'd like to.

[Richard Campbell]

Do a video production. It's fun to build a machine and to show these guys how this stuff works. And we'll spit out a couple of computers in the process.

[Paul Thurrott]

Look, in the end, who cares if you get the copilot plus features then or later or never. You're still got this awesome. Whatever it is.

[Richard Campbell]

I know I've got an older machine that I'm ready to do a teardown on and I'm trying to retire the last of those old rack mount cases. And so then the process. I helped set a kid up with a machine who otherwise wouldn't have one.

[Paul Thurrott]

Good idea.

[Richard Campbell]

We build a good computer. Maybe all this stuff is easy, right? And it beats the hell out of recycling.

[Leo Laporte]

We could actually build a machine or something. Maybe.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, right.

[Richard Campbell]

I don't know. We'll figure it out. I see the pieces coming together, but to me it just kills me that I kick hardware out because I need Something new and there's nothing wrong with it. So can you give it a go?

[Paul Thurrott]

There's also this. There's been a lot of artificial kind of hardware requirements in Windows 11. Or, you know, you get these subtle year over year updates every year. It's like, you know, what's the big deal? But I do feel like we've crossed some line with these new CPUs where computers have gotten really interesting again. And it might, I don't think, in.

[Richard Campbell]

The general public, build them.

[Paul Thurrott]

It's a good time. Yeah, I think so. It's very interesting. Like things are changing. It's kind of cool.

[Leo Laporte]

Well, it's something we did, we would do on tech TV all the time and it was very popular. And then even when we started Twit, we built the ultimate VR gaming machine and stuff.

[Paul Thurrott]

I remember when you guys got the Surface Studio that Robert.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, and then Robert Heron took the.

[Paul Thurrott]

Hard drive out of it and put the SSD into it, upgraded it.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, people love that. Even if something. Maybe people don't do that much anymore.

[Richard Campbell]

It'S a great thing you're at least showing people. This is why you don't do this.

[Paul Thurrott]

Well, there's also halfway steps. You could buy like a NUC kit when they made those or whatever other things they have, like that bee bomb or whatever, and then buy the components and you're just plugging in M2 cards and some RAM and stuff.

[Richard Campbell]

But it's together.

[Paul Thurrott]

You're still doing your own little thing there. It's kind of cool. Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

Well, and it's. And it's all that. Take your time with the. Do a little grounding and make sure you build this in the right order. You know, I'm very particular about putting thermal paste on to. Oh, that's a good one.

[Paul Thurrott]

I put my. I usually just do the whole body. I don't know if you just do your face, you know.

[Richard Campbell]

But they're the old pace.

[Paul Thurrott]

Wherever you need like a nice shiny in the basket.

[Leo Laporte]

So. Good, let's do it. Let's plan on that. I love that idea. That's something I know our audience would love. It's really.

[Richard Campbell]

Get it done by the end of the year.

[Leo Laporte]

Okay.

[Richard Campbell]

That's my hire.

[Leo Laporte]

You just tell me when. I'll help you. Good. That's great.

[Paul Thurrott]

It'll be fun.

[Leo Laporte]

Hey, let's take a pause that refreshes. Then we can talk about the fact that today the Department of Justice said, yeah, we want to break up Google. Yeah, we just want to break them up. How's that? How Would that work as you throw it out there? Let's just throw it out there.

[Paul Thurrott]

And that's the thing we came up with.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, my God. Oh, my.

[Richard Campbell]

I was thinking our show.

[Leo Laporte]

Wow. You're watching Windows Weekly. Paul Thurat, Richard Campbell, more to come. But first, a word from our sponsor. This is a good sponsor for this show. I feel like everybody should be using this product.

[Paul Thurrott]

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[Leo Laporte]

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[Paul Thurrott]

As it turns out, there are two Google things.

[Leo Laporte]

Okay.

[Paul Thurrott]

Tough week for Google in court in an antitrust sense. So they've lost at least a couple of Antitrust cases in the United States, one against Epic figures. And some months ago, the judge in that case went to Epic and said, speaking of fan fiction, why don't you tell me what you'd like to see? And Epic came out with what I did at the time describe as fan fiction. And then the judge said, yeah, let's just do that. So he is basically ordering Google for a period of three years to open up the Google Play Store and the Android app ecosystem in Android to third parties. Right. And it is a sweeping series of requirements. It's pretty broad. It's everything you could dream of and more is, I guess the only way to say it.

[Richard Campbell]

You know, I'm not even thinking about the Epic Store. That's fine.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

I'm thinking about Steam.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yes.

[Richard Campbell]

Well, this would be the moment for Gabe to make the move into Steam Mobile.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep. I think we're going to see a lot of these third party stores. Part of it is they have to open up the Google Play catalog to these stores so they can display all those apps and games in third party stores as well. Now that doesn't mean Google doesn't get paid. They can, you know, this, it. We're not, we're not trying to, you know, you have to give stuff away for three years. That's not really how this works. And of course Google's appealing and there'll be months and years and whatever, we'll see what happens.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, they're far, this is far from done. And like I said, I expect this to be a consent decree in the end, but I don't think they're going to win. This app, this App Store thing, I think this net is broken open. I bet you Apple's choked because if it, if it goes through with Google, it's going to happen to Apple too.

[Paul Thurrott]

That's the thing. Once you establish this legal precedent now people can say, okay, but you know, we won our case.

[Richard Campbell]

Construction of a business.

[Paul Thurrott]

Right. Doesn't matter. Yeah, yeah, that thing, that's. Now we have precedent, so we'll see what happens. But okay, so I thought that was pretty big. And then this week happened. And not a new ruling exactly, but in the broader, the bigger antitrust case against Google for its, well, for its search monopoly and advertising and all the stuff that stuck into it, they were found guilty or appealing, et cetera. But this judge in that case went to the DOJ and said, if you could have anything, what would you ask for? And the DOJ did not leave anything off the table as a possibility. So, you know, it's impossible for this not to summon memories of Microsoft. Right. It's weird.

[Richard Campbell]

Oh yeah. It seems so similar.

[Paul Thurrott]

It is so similar. It's literally the same sort of behavior to the same commingling, the same tying of one product. It's. It is the same. Google of course has a market that is. It's weird to even say this out loud. It may even be 10 times bigger than the market Microsoft was addressing with PCs and Windows back in the late 90s. It's incredible the number of billions of people that this impacts, although in the United States smaller. So yeah, I mean this is an interesting conversation and it's only a conversation because appeals in years and years and we'll see the judge will come at some point with you know, his recommendation or his will actually be the consent decree. I guess it'll be a consent but he determines what needs to happen.

[Richard Campbell]

I don't see this as all breakupable really.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

You know, there's only a couple of strategies and that's pretty tough. It's better that they build a consent.

[Paul Thurrott]

Decree for a behavioral type thing you're saying.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, yeah. In the end that's what you want is and he to get rid of the anti monopolistic practices.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, this, this brings out the crazies, this kind of conversation in a way because there are the people that just don't want anything to happen to these companies. There are the people who are just as crazy on the other side that want it to be splintered into 5 million pieces and spread around the earth. And we don't want that. You know, we all have.

[Leo Laporte]

Well, and it's.

[Richard Campbell]

In the end it's like what harms the customer. Right. Like this is all Sherman act stuff where they're all going back to okay, the customer is being harmed because prices are being driven up because of the.

[Paul Thurrott]

Way the innovation has stopped. That, you know, some of this is.

[Richard Campbell]

Intangible and there's a case for all of that.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. People have a hard time understanding that if Google did not have this monopoly, how much good stuff could have been happening by third party. It doesn't guarantee that that happens, but prices would be lower, there'd be more choice, et cetera, et cetera.

[Richard Campbell]

So yeah, but the remedy cannot cause harm in the process.

[Paul Thurrott]

I mean the remedy is probably going to cause harm, but. Yes, but ideally, ideally you're well can.

[Leo Laporte]

Cause harm to Google. Right. But not anybody else.

[Richard Campbell]

But that's an interesting point too.

[Paul Thurrott]

So just to make it simple, when Microsoft was going to be broken up, I believe at the time, the plan. At one time there was ideas about different plans, but the plan, as I understand it or recall it, was there two companies. Right. The operating system company and the app company, I think was just.

[Richard Campbell]

And everything else company. Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

As a shareholder of that company, you would have received a share in each company. So you'd probably be doing pretty good. That would probably work out. I think from an economy standpoint, this might actually be seen as a good thing. Right. Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

Dvorak always said this would be great for everybody.

[Paul Thurrott]

Right. And I think we face the same situation here. If there was some logical split where you say, well, look, we have to break the tie between your ad monopoly, which is 70% of Google's earnings, revenues, and the things that distribute it and. Or maintain or extend it. Right. And so what are those things, you know, Android and Chrome and search. Right. I mean, so is there some version of Google that exists that is only some of that?

[Richard Campbell]

Is there some search in one can and everything else in the other can?

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

I kind of wish Google would be forced to divest YouTube. I feel like that's not, that's not part of the thing here. They're really advertising.

[Paul Thurrott]

It's not part of what they discussed, but it could be because I don't know this off the top of my head, but some percentage of Google's ad revenues come from YouTube. YouTube is primarily an ad driven.

[Richard Campbell]

Well, and there's a strong argument that YouTube is in a monopoly as well. It is virtually impossible to be meaningful in video without being on YouTube.

[Paul Thurrott]

YouTube is the Kleenex of online video. Right. It's, you know, that's the only place unless you're Microsoft, I guess, because I.

[Richard Campbell]

Mean, it's sooner or later the right lawyer, the Brad Smith of Google is going to show up and make a deal.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, that guy, I should know his name, Kent Walker is not that guy. Let me tell you, he's still in the belligerent, we're going to fight everything phase of his career.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

Do you think the DA is threatening the breakup because what they really want them to do is open the search?

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep. Yeah. Because the real outcome here could be very similar to what happened with Microsoft where you get a settlement and doesn't mean it's ideal, it doesn't mean everyone gets what they want. But if the goal here is to prevent those behaviors from continuing, that was harming competition and hurting innovation and harming consumers. Ultimately there's a version of the end of the story that is Google remains whole and emerges. They can have A monopoly. Right. It's okay.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah. Well and here's a distinct difference. You know when Microsoft and Nick has said decree basically opened up the source code of Windows to the competitors that were complaining they did not find any if real networks code like there was not.

[Paul Thurrott]

I know that's the. That's the.

[Richard Campbell]

That there was opposite of that there was to make badly build software run. Well.

[Paul Thurrott]

Right.

[Richard Campbell]

The problem if you open up search and actually expose exactly how the algorithm works is then the algorithm is destroyed because now everybody games the algorithm.

[Paul Thurrott]

Well, Google does too.

[Richard Campbell]

Right?

[Paul Thurrott]

Google already does. That's the problem. So.

[Richard Campbell]

Well, and error lies. A real question is like if you reveal this then see that what do you prioritizing their own things.

[Leo Laporte]

What if maybe they say well don't open it to the public, but open in such a way that DuckDuckGo and.

[Richard Campbell]

Other companies interested parties.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. And also we get lost in this thing. Part of the argument, part of the thing people need to understand is it doesn't mean they give it away for free. No, not at all. One of the things that I think will be decided in these various regulatory or antitrust cases around mobile app stores is what is reasonable to charge as a fee for whatever it might be an in app payment, an app whatever.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

And this would this ties to this as well because Google has created this ip I guess they've created. They have this thing that they own that is worth something. I could imagine many companies wanting to go to them and say hey, I'd like to start a search service. That's what you do without your hand picking of things. It's just going to be. Is going to be the algorithm. I think we'd all like to see what that looked like. I mean in some ways, right. What would a pure version of Google search look like? I mean might be pretty.

[Leo Laporte]

So you said before the show that you wanted to hear what Jeff Jarvis had to say. Of course, yes. Probably topic one right after this is it.

[Paul Thurrott]

I'm just curious because I have my own history with the Microsoft thing. I have my own opinions as I've said.

[Leo Laporte]

Well, that's why you have a real standing here because you've seen it happen once before.

[Paul Thurrott]

The Microsoft one. The Microsoft case has an asterisk because they were going to be broken up. It was judicial misbehavior that prevented that from happening and they settled. And people look back on it now and they're like oh, Microsoft basically won that case. Like no, they did not.

[Richard Campbell]

They had lost.

[Paul Thurrott]

They lost.

[Richard Campbell]

And there was enough dirt that it was going to get tangled up in, wow, an appeal for decades.

[Paul Thurrott]

Oh, and. But the. That.

[Richard Campbell]

So let's make a deal.

[Paul Thurrott]

The facts of that case.

[Leo Laporte]

Judge did something wrong.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. He talked to reporters during the case in badmouth Microsoft. You know, you're not actually allowed to do that.

[Richard Campbell]

But it all. It still took two years. Right. Like this stuff doesn't happen fast.

[Paul Thurrott]

No, but I, but the point I was trying to make was. So they what they throw out his remedy. They did not throw it as remember ruling everything that he found that Microsoft was guilty of, they are still guilty of. That is still a legal record of fact. It was not taken away. So part of the settlement was you actually have to address that. So Microsoft had the opportunity, I mean, they could have tried to settle. You know, they were very belligerent at the time, but Microsoft had the opportunity ahead of time to have more of a say on this. If Google. So far, they have not. I mentioned Kent Walker, the, the utterances of this guy, his position on all of these antitrust things, the DMA in Europe, et cetera, is all very Microsoft 1999. He's not learned this lesson, but pugnacious. But Google could do what Microsoft didn't and settle by having talks with the DOJ in the States and saying, look, we get it. Will this do it? Will this do it? That sort of thing. Google, the judge in Epic v. Google practically begged them and then forced them to have settlements talk, settlement talks, which went nowhere because of Google. And so they're still in that place where they're like, well, you know, we feel like, you know, we built this thing, it's ours. You know, you can't take it away from us. And it's like, yeah, actually they can. So you might want to start thinking about that and maybe changing your behavior a little bit. So I do think there's a. That's why I want to talk to Jeff. My history of this, whatever is whatever. But in some ways, I think there's an opportunity here for Google to kind of do the right thing and emerge in better shape than they might otherwise. And it would benefit anyone out in the world who uses any of their products and services.

[Leo Laporte]

I don't think it's a good thing, frankly, if you destroy Google because, I.

[Paul Thurrott]

Mean, I don't think anyone's talking about destroying Google. But, you know, if they're so belligerent that they're not, you know, they're still taught like, we haven't done anything wrong. They keep saying this. So you have to take you have to unbind those things that allow them to enact that behavior.

[Leo Laporte]

Right.

[Paul Thurrott]

So you're gonna split up parts of it. Unless they can settle, you know, they still have a chance.

[Leo Laporte]

Stick around. You could join us on Windows Weekly. I mean, this week on Google.

[Paul Thurrott]

And I should say, too, there's a legal process, too. So aside from settling, I think for. I'm sure they're not even thinking of settling right now. They're going to let the legal process play out, the appeal process, see if they can get anything overturned. And that would be the best years out, right? I mean, potentially. Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

Part of the problem with this is, and it was certainly a problem with Microsoft, is sometimes the violating behavior is no longer important in five years. Right. I think in this case it will be because Google's dominance of the ad market is clearly problematic.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

You want to do the DMA story?

[Paul Thurrott]

Oh, sorry. There was a knock at the door and I thought my wife was picking up a dog, but it's a package. Okay.

[Leo Laporte]

Are you getting a new dog?

[Paul Thurrott]

No, no, no. There was a dog down.

[Leo Laporte]

See, I thought if you're in Mexico, it should be a Chihuahua.

[Paul Thurrott]

If we left our door open, the dog would just come in here and sit with me on the couch. The DMA store. Yeah. So last week we talked about how Germany wants to apply the DMA regulations to all of Microsoft. Right. Not just the parts of Microsoft that fall under the DMA, which windows, obviously, and LinkedIn. What? You know, so it's kind of weird. You would think maybe Office would be in there. You could imagine things that might be there. There is a. I don't know what to call this, a cadre, A group of companies that most of whom I've never heard of personally, that have petitioned the EU to rethink its decision not to put Edge under the regulatory control of the dma.

[Leo Laporte]

Is Sleipnir in this list anyway?

[Paul Thurrott]

I think they're from Asia. I could be wrong, but I don't know.

[Leo Laporte]

No, I think they're Scandinavian.

[Paul Thurrott]

Oh, are they? Oh, they may. Okay, so the companies I should have. Where's this? It's Vivaldi, which we have heard of.

[Leo Laporte]

Okay.

[Paul Thurrott]

It's. Where is this thing?

[Leo Laporte]

Waterfall Waterfox and wavefox. Or is it Wave, Fox and Waterbox? I don't know.

[Paul Thurrott]

And then some industry group, you know, based around a letter to the EU that Opera had written earlier, but they're not in this list of companies. The theory here is actually pretty strong. Right. Edge has some small amount of market Share compared to Google Chrome. We all know that. I think worldwide it might be somewhere around 11% right now. But Microsoft uses Edge as one of its levers in Windows to direct your behavior. And Windows does fall under this dma. If you as a user or you as a company have chosen to standardize on, let's say, Chrome as your web browser. There are certain activities occur in Windows that always happen in Edge, whether you want them to or not. And you know, I. As someone who's been complaining about this for years and years, I have to say I don't know who Sleep near is or whatever these other companies are.

[Leo Laporte]

But, you know, it's funny, I just looked it up.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

And we're both right. Because the reason I thought it was a Scandinavian company is because Sleep near is, you know, Odin's eight legged horse.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yes.

[Leo Laporte]

And the. And the company that. And the company that created is called Fenrir, which is also Norse mythology, but it was originally created in Japanese. So it.

[Paul Thurrott]

My head, it was something.

[Leo Laporte]

It was created by Yasuyuki Kashigawa or Kashiwagi. I'm sorry.

[Paul Thurrott]

Well, like Wavebox, I looked these companies up when I read I already knew about Waterfox is a Firefox derivative. Right.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

Wavebox. What? WaveBox. There are third party browsers that to most normal people would be kind of bizarre that I know a lot about, like Ark or whatever or Brave, you know, and they're not. I mean, these are all European companies, so.

[Leo Laporte]

Right.

[Paul Thurrott]

I don't know, but I actually think they have. They've. I think they're correct. I think this is the right thing to do. And because Edge is, as Microsoft will tell you, deeply integrated with Windows, they do use it as a way to direct you to other Microsoft services, primarily online services, including advertising, which is what a monopolist does by tying their dominant product to the thing they want to get better. And that's exactly what they're doing. It's the same strategy that they employed with IE back in 1990. Whatever. That was five. I guess. So, Yeah. I actually, I think that should happen. I just. I wish it was coming from someone I had heard of, but it's okay.

[Leo Laporte]

Like sleipnir.

[Paul Thurrott]

Like Sleep Near. Well, like opera, you know, Although Opera, like I said, they did kick it off.

[Leo Laporte]

So, yeah, Vivaldi's in there probably.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, they're in there.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, we've heard of them. We've heard of them. All right, let's take a break now. And then I guess there's still AI to talk about developer stuff, Office or I'm sorry, Microsoft 365. And of course it's a booyah base.

[Paul Thurrott]

It's a technical bouillabaisse.

[Leo Laporte]

All coming up plus and the number.

[Richard Campbell]

One whiskey in the world.

[Leo Laporte]

What could that be?

[Paul Thurrott]

Now I have to look.

[Richard Campbell]

Don't look.

[Leo Laporte]

No looking. No cheating.

[Paul Thurrott]

I gotta look. I don't care how the story ends. I just wanted to know.

[Leo Laporte]

All right, while Paul is cheating, we will get back with Windows Weekly, Paul Thurrott and Richard Campbell in just a second. But the show today, this portion of the show brought to you by Melissa, the data quality expert. Since 1985, they've been doing this longer than I have. Whether you need the full white glove service or just the nuts and bolts, Melissa is the best for your enterprise and keeping your data clean. Bing. I feel like there should be a little Bing. Your data's clean. Melissa now offers transparent pricing for all its services. That's nice because you don't have to guess when you're estimating your business budget. 10,000 businesses worldwide have benefited from Melissa's industry leading solutions. See, here's the thing. You've got address data, supplier data. You've got all that information about your customers, but it is decaying. It is withering right before your very eyes. Phone numbers change, emails change. Maybe numbers in the address are transposed. Clean data is crucial to business operations. Melissa makes it easy for you to cleanse and standardize your data within the popular platforms you're already using. This helps improve roi, optimize business efficiency and elevates the customer experience because nobody wants to be called by the wrong name and or get their products delivered to the wrong address. Melissa integrates, as I said, right into the apps you use. Microsoft 365. Yes. Google Sheets. Check. Dynamics 365. Check. Esri, Stripe, Shopify, Check, check, check. See, the nice thing is you're in those apps or you've got your card or whatever and Melissa's automatically keeping the data clean. So even on data entry, it's going to be cleaned up. You're going to improve address data quality to save money to keep customers happy. You're going to improve payment processing and deliverability with clean standardized data. You're going to keep customer records accurate with out of the box Data cleansing tools. G2 continues to recognize Melissa as a leader in data quality and address verification. They just got, once again, they got that for summer 2024. And let me reassure you because I know everybody worries about data and security and privacy. Melissa's committed to the security and privacy of all client data in their care through responsible use. I mean, they have a 38 year history of establishing and refining their controls to secure data. They are compliant with all the current standards. SOC2 HIPAA, High Trust GDPR. Get started today with 1000 records clean for free. You'll like what Melissa can do. Go to melissa.com twit we thank Melissa so much for supporting Windows Weekly and we thank you for supporting Windows Weekly by using that address. Melissa.com Twitter thank you, Melissa, for supporting the good works that Paul and Richard are doing for all of us today.

[Paul Thurrott]

Wow.

[Richard Campbell]

Heavy.

[Paul Thurrott]

You make me sound so altruistic.

[Leo Laporte]

Well, you kind of are.

[Paul Thurrott]

I mean, this is a money grab, Leo. I don't know.

[Leo Laporte]

You're only in it for the money.

[Richard Campbell]

I'm here for the bucks.

[Leo Laporte]

Okay. Forget I said anything. Let's talk Microsoft. Can I ask a question from the chat room? I thought this was a really interesting question. Jamie Lee Curtis asked it too, which kind of made me want to.

[Paul Thurrott]

I was hoping she was in the chat room, but go on.

[Leo Laporte]

She's in the. She's on X.

[Paul Thurrott]

She's in a closet hiding from this.

[Leo Laporte]

I'll pop it up for you. Totally random. Always want to know from Richard and Paul who they rank as their top three CEOs of Microsoft.

[Paul Thurrott]

I passed three CEOs.

[Richard Campbell]

There's only been three.

[Paul Thurrott]

That was a trick question.

[Leo Laporte]

All three of them. Bomber Gates and Nadella.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, I think we can all agree they were terrible in their own ways and.

[Leo Laporte]

Okay, thank you, Jamie Lee.

[Paul Thurrott]

You know what?

[Leo Laporte]

She's just here to promote Halloween 18. It's not. Don't worry about it.

[Paul Thurrott]

No, I. Where did the Jamie Lee Curtis thing come from? Is that.

[Leo Laporte]

That's the name of the Twitter account. But as you know, on Twitter.

[Paul Thurrott]

Okay. Anything.

[Richard Campbell]

Palmer's by far the most fun. He's the most fun.

[Leo Laporte]

Nadella, I think is easily. Well, do you think?

[Paul Thurrott]

Okay. Every one of them is fascinating in their own way because Gates obviously founded the company and the success and took.

[Richard Campbell]

It from nothing to everything.

[Paul Thurrott]

So he'll always have that. He has some problematic aspects. But. Okay. He. We were just talking about antitrust. Antitrust was when he lost interest in being the CEO of Microsoft. So he became Chief Science officer and Net happened and whatever. History is history.

[Richard Campbell]

He was chief architect.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, chief architect. Software architect. Sorry. And you know, Steve Ballmer is, you know, an accountant. So we have this period of time where really, where Mike Bean counter as well, is not led by an engineer, which is weird. Right. For a company like.

[Richard Campbell]

Which was a problem. It definitely, you know, you point to the issues with Ballmer. It was that he wasn't an engineer, but Bomber's blessing is that he kept the company together. Like he got that deal done.

[Paul Thurrott]

He, Tim Cook, not an engineer, you know, kind of similar. He's done. Okay.

[Leo Laporte]

He's an operational guy, though. And these days that's a very important part of. Because Apple's a product company.

[Paul Thurrott]

Right.

[Richard Campbell]

It's become a strength for Apple.

[Paul Thurrott]

I think as history gets written and rewritten, I think Steve Ballmer will be looked on kindly because he was the one who really jump started the Microsoft we know today with the cloud focus and that kind of thing and then.

[Richard Campbell]

Knew he was an impediment to it. He got out of the way.

[Paul Thurrott]

And he got out of the way. Satya Nadella. I told this story last week, but I met him once and I might have told this on the show too. Ward Ralston introduced me to him as part of the server team a million years ago. And I shook his hand and said, oh, good. Fresh meat. It's weird that we've never spoken since.

[Richard Campbell]

That's what he took over from.

[Paul Thurrott]

Right.

[Richard Campbell]

When he took over president servant to us.

[Paul Thurrott]

It's just, you know, not a lot of journalists. I still have a job anyway. But he's interesting because he was not interesting. He was kind of this cold, robotic whatever. But the company, you know, blue through the roof financially was when he went.

[Richard Campbell]

To CEO school, like when he was the Bing guy, he was pretty great. Like, he. But when he became CEO, remember, he had a really tough first year and they sent him to finishing school and he became very stiff for a couple of years.

[Paul Thurrott]

A lot of people, I mean, Terry Meyerson was like this. It's hard, you know, it's hard to get so hard. It's, it's, it's. This is a weird set of skills to have.

[Richard Campbell]

Well, and yeah, to take that much feedback with that much research behind it and try and get all of that language right. It's not normal.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, he's, he doesn't. He's an engineer.

[Richard Campbell]

I don't know that Mandela has spoken normally since.

[Paul Thurrott]

Right. I used to joke that you could take one of his speeches and use the summarize feature in Word and you'd come up with zero words. There would be nothing there. Right. But the thing is, he did this when he came in and he's done this now since. Where there's a behind the scenes part of Della that's Not super public yet, where this guy's kind of an assass.

[Richard Campbell]

Actually, the lynching of Stephen Elop set ripples through the whole company.

[Paul Thurrott]

Well, just the whole office space scene where he brings in each team and says, what do you do here? Exactly. And you know, the idea being that they had to justify themselves as a business that could be profitable. They didn't have to be. Right. But they had some plan for that. They didn't have to be subsidized by Windows or whatever else was keeping the company afloat at the time. And they had to make sense within the strategy that was happening under him, which was this cloud computing push. And he's done it again with AI, and we've actually seen some of that where he basically said, look, you don't have to do this, but you'll be gone if you don't do this.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

And he's turning, you know, this is slow and steady wins the race. And then AI happened and he was like now almost 2K.

[Richard Campbell]

The argument, the way I've heard it described, is he spent the past few years getting the company honed for the moment. He wrote that letter.

[Paul Thurrott]

Okay, well, I mean, yeah, I mean, that's.

[Richard Campbell]

He was looking for a thing and when the thing appeared, you moved the whole company.

[Paul Thurrott]

It happened so abruptly.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah. Because it's not that he didn't make the thing. He found the thing.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep. Yeah. And a lot of people at a lot of Microsoft leaders would naturally not necessarily go toward that thing. Right. They want to be the inventors of the thing or whatever. So I think it was good on him. So. Yeah, I don't know. I think it's too early to rate him against the other two.

[Richard Campbell]

But yeah, let's talk about AI again next year and see when we still don't have product. Like, how's it looking? How's that 20 billion looking now?

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, this is right. I've joked about this licensable moment thing. I mean, I think the thing Microsoft has done the most differently, other than just the speed, is trying to monetize it so quickly. And it's like, guys, it's not ready. You're trying to get customers to spend money. It would be like me spending money on a game pass subscription and not getting Activision games. That's crazy. It would never happen.

[Richard Campbell]

It's not a thing.

[Paul Thurrott]

That's stupid. I don't even know why I said that. Anyway, we'll see. Yeah, you're right. We'll see. I think it's going to be very interesting.

[Richard Campbell]

Monetization is not optional. There's no argument that works in the boardroom that doesn't involve revenue. Right. So you put a price out there and see who sucks.

[Paul Thurrott]

I just mean monetize it immediately.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

You know, they went from. They announced the Microsoft 365 copilot in March, if I'm not mistaken, and productized it in October. I mean, there wasn't a lot there there and there's not a lot there now.

[Leo Laporte]

But to that point, you actually have a really interesting article on thorat.com in the premium section about Nadella and AI.

[Paul Thurrott]

And.

[Leo Laporte]

Well, but yes, commoditization of AI, which is very.

[Paul Thurrott]

This blows my mind. I missed. Here's the thing. So over the past 30 days, Microsoft has had two major announcements about what they think are called wave two of Copilot. Right. There was the commercial version, Microsoft 365 Copilot, followed by, I think 10 days later, the consumer version. Okay. I paid more attention to the consumer version, frankly, but it came up just the other day. Someone referenced Satya Nadella referring to the actual LLMs that power all of their AI as a commodity. And I said, okay, I have to find this. So this is bizarre, but on the day that Microsoft made their Wave two announcement for commercial, which I paid less attention to, Satya Nadella posted on LinkedIn like one does. I'm going to read the quote, but I'm also going to pause because I, I have to break this down. This is what I used to do with Stephen Stofsky. You have to think about what he's saying as AI becomes more capable and agentic. Now pause. Agentic. In other words, agent Waste.

[Richard Campbell]

Venting that word. Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

Agentic. Hilarious. Okay, what does that mean? So, and we, we touched on this, I think, last week, the note. A copilot is this thing that helps you do a thing. Right? You know, that it's beside you. An agent is different because it goes off and works on your behalf in the background, doing things for you. You give it a. You've programmed it, but it's. You're not. It's not working with you. It's going to come back at some point and say, hey, I found something so agentic. So we're moving into this. Is this agents?

[Richard Campbell]

This is what Wave two services is.

[Paul Thurrott]

Part of the Wave two. Right? Okay.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

As. No, okay, as that happens, models themselves, these are the LLMs, right. Become more of a commodity. Pause right there. All right. Microsoft has models, of course, but the foundation of this AI push thus far has been OpenAI's models, the chat GPT models. Right. It just, he just said that the. Our biggest partner. Well, one of our biggest partners. This thing we've invested what is 11, $13 billion in 13 has had slightly a rough weird year with, you know, dramatic comings and goings of people. Lots of weird churn. It forced that forced them, it triggered them starting their own Microsoft AI business with Suleyman and the people from Inflection, et cetera, et cetera. This. If you're at OpenAI, if you're Sam Altman and you read this, which you would have, or someone would have certainly put it in front of you, that is almost a declaration of war.

[Richard Campbell]

So shot across the bow, right.

[Paul Thurrott]

What you're saying is this company that triggered Microsoft becoming a completely different company, the thing we just talked about is now a commodity. It's not even two years in.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah. Part of this is the fact that the OpenAI interface works across multiple models, including ones not made by OpenAI. You can plug lama in through the same interface.

[Paul Thurrott]

But I also think if you spend.

[Richard Campbell]

Time in that AI studio, there's like a thousand models in there.

[Paul Thurrott]

All right, let me. Yeah, I know I called any of them, you're right. And, but the. Yeah, so the other thing that's happening concurrently to this is Microsoft's not the only one that reacted to ChatGPT4. Google has been doing this all along. Google, Google, I think is going to be the turtle that wins this race eventually. But whatever. Google, Microsoft, OpenAI, Apple, now Amazon, right. And then 100 small second tier companies we don't need to name are all racing to get this stuff to be on par or better than the others. We've very quickly reached the point where we have alternatives in an LLM market that two years ago was so impossible to even play in because of the expense of building out the infrastructure and the size of the data that one would need to deliver something that made any sense whatsoever. That's how fast this market has moved, right? Microsoft, not this second, but he is saying they are and will do it. Could just flip a switch and move over to something that's better anytime they want to or anytime they can. Right. This is declaration.

[Richard Campbell]

Because commodity.

[Paul Thurrott]

Because commodity. So he continues, all value gets created by how you. And here he means Microsoft. But how one you, Microsoft steer ground and fine tune those models with your business data and workflow. So actually there's, I'm sorry, it was custom business customers who by the way are not allowing their business data to go anywhere near this AI, which is the same response. But what he's. But when one steers grounds and fine tunes models. That's what Microsoft's doing. Right, that's. That's Microsoft as the intermediary. Right? Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

Microsoft arguably has been in the business of tooling since day one.

[Paul Thurrott]

There you go. Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

You don't make the language, you make the dev tool for the language.

[Paul Thurrott]

That's right. So we are the you look, we may use this thing on the back end, but you don't have to actually worry what we're using on the back end because we're going to use the best thing we can. It might not be the same thing in six months or a year, but what you will know as our customer is that the thing you're doing will always be the best it can be because we are steering grounding and fine tuning these models ourselves. Right. And then it says how they get, how they compose with the UI layer of human to AI to human interaction. So this is the copilot agent, whatever it is, ui, the interaction that one would have as a user, I guess with the AI, which is we don't really talk about clicking on buttons in a window or something. That's really what he's talking about here. It's like the way that this thing works and a lot of this stuff is going to be backend services. Good morning. Here's your daily summary. Here's your email summary. Here's your meeting. It's going to be that of stuff. I, I'm sorry but I. We are not even two years into this and he has just declared that this thing that is the most crazy computer advance possibly in history is a commodity. Like I, I, it's, it is state, it's table stakes. It's what everyone is and it's great.

[Richard Campbell]

Positioning for undermining the value of the engine versus the value of the interface.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep. I find this incredible and I missed it. When he first said this, I didn't even know what happened.

[Richard Campbell]

But it also makes sense from point of view of if the tooling part was easy, OpenAI would be leading. Where they stumble is on all the tooling problems.

[Paul Thurrott]

This has come up so many times on this podcast, but we live in this era where we could wake up any day and something insane has happened in AI. I mean we live in a world where something insane could happen anywhere. I know that. But in AI, you know, we saw the Google. So Google has a Notebook LLM tool that will take any content and then turn it into a realistic sounding podcast with Two people bantering together.

[Leo Laporte]

It sounds exactly like this show, actually.

[Paul Thurrott]

It's incredible. It has all the little, like they speak over each other a little bit, they laugh jokes, they do whatever. So I'm like, okay, I need some, you know, I'm just like, you know, OpenAI or Microsoft. I need a lot of data. So I found a Steven Snofsky blog post from 2012. It's 8,000 words. And I threw it into this thing and I created a. It created. I didn't do anything. I created a little video where I stole the content it created and I published it. And it is two people. It's two AIs that sound like people and it sounds real and they're talking normally. The only. I mean, the one thing you'll notice up top of this thing is that they refer. It's about Windows on arm, the initial push. And so they refer to that as arm instead of arm, you know, so they keep saying arm. And that's. But at the, you know, it's actually not at the top of it. So it's somewhere in my forums. I published it. But you can also find it on our website. So if, I mean, I'm sorry, our YouTube site. So if you go to YouTube.com you know, throttle comm, you'll see it. It's somewhere near the top, but it is incredible. Like, it's incredible. So that's Google, you know, a couple months ago it was OpenAI coming out with that natural sounding voice thing and the conversational bit. And you know, Microsoft has, you know, they're doing the same thing. I mean, they're doing the same things. And talk about commodity. You know, one of the things I brought up probably last week or two weeks ago is this notion of. I was paying for Copilot Pro because of the image stuff mostly. And that's actually free now, you know.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

To the quality and style that I wanted.

[Leo Laporte]

I talked about this a few times. It is a commodity in the sense that it's crazy. Foundational papers for AI.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yes.

[Leo Laporte]

There's only a handful of them and they're. And they're open. They're well known. In fact, one of the authors, Geoffrey Hinton, just got the Nobel Peace. Nobel Prize.

[Paul Thurrott]

So there's a book out now which.

[Leo Laporte]

Is interesting, for which Physics. Physics and then for chemistry. Another AI guy.

[Richard Campbell]

Was it medicine for DeepMind?

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah. Was it medicine for Demis? Yeah, medicine, yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

Because the DeepMind Alpha Fold has transformed protein folio.

[Leo Laporte]

That's what they're talking about, is protein. Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

They entered the competition, like six years ago. It's every two years.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

And the first year was one team using it and they outdid everybody by a mile. The second team, second year, there was like six teams using it. Now everybody use.

[Leo Laporte]

That's kind of amazing. But the point. But that really underlines what you're saying. It is a commodity, but nobody really has an advantage here. These things have been invented and now we're all using them.

[Paul Thurrott]

If you're freaking out, or actually you guys both will just want to read this because it's incredible. But if you're freaking out about AI, very instructive. There's a book out called AI Snake Oil that just came out.

[Leo Laporte]

I want to say, though, is it Snake Oil?

[Richard Campbell]

Is that some of those.

[Paul Thurrott]

No, no, no, no. Don't worry about the title. I mean, I'm just saying the content of the book. You're going to want to read this because it explains. Every question anyone has about AI is explained in this book. And it's really, really well done. Yeah, it's really, really.

[Leo Laporte]

AI is one of those technologies. Geez. You know, we're. We can all discuss 3 nanometer processes and, you know, and how an operating system works, but when it gets to AI, nobody really knows how this stuff works.

[Paul Thurrott]

Arthur C. Clarke was the. Or is it Asimov who said, you know, the. You know, if it's Clark, it's magic, right?

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

And AI, Look, a lot of it's stupid, you know, but you do have those moments, right, where the OpenAI mini demo of the automatically created videos from a prompt where that's magic. You see that. You're like, oh, my God. And yes, you'll see like, oh, look, there's a little mistake here. Whatever it is. But still, it's you. There are way more of those moments now than there were with, like, the Internet or whatever.

[Richard Campbell]

I could argue that the problem we have with AI is all the science fiction that's distorted our minds.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

You project.

[Leo Laporte]

Exactly.

[Richard Campbell]

But problems have projected to it anyway. Then you throw in 60 years of movie making.

[Leo Laporte]

That's what we really think of it as. So they have a whole. It looks like a medium page based on AI Snake Oil.

[Richard Campbell]

I just ordered it for the Kindle.

[Paul Thurrott]

You'll love it. And it's not.

[Leo Laporte]

It's just September 21st.

[Paul Thurrott]

It's not like an opinion piece. It's just, where did this stuff come from? And they go back and they find a lot of this technology dates back almost 40 years.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

You know. Oh, yeah, it's.

[Leo Laporte]

I Mean, that's what Hinton won a Nobel Prize for is neural networks.

[Richard Campbell]

I mean, this stuff around back propagation is from 1986.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

Right. Like, it's old. It just couldn't be done with the hardware at the time. And it was his students, including Suscovar, that implemented it in 2012.

[Leo Laporte]

Right.

[Richard Campbell]

For the Imagenet competition.

[Paul Thurrott]

And so. Right. So one of the big breakthroughs came from Google DeepMind. And it might have just been Google at the time, whatever it was, but basically it was just a brute force approach to solving this problem. So they had this AI breakthrough and they were like, well, we can't, you know, this is not viable as a product. We threw every resource we had at it and it added one in one. But it provided the information that all the people that came out of that and then went to these other companies used as the basis for their later contributions or whatever.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, good news. Somebody who's listening to the show earlier said, I missed those Audible recommendations, you guys.

[Paul Thurrott]

Oh, there you go.

[Leo Laporte]

Audible no longer is advertising, but AI Snake Oil is available at Audible as an Audible. Yeah. Nine hours. See, that's. I wish I could read books, but I know I go to sleep.

[Paul Thurrott]

I find it hard to sleep. Well, I find it hard just to have the time. I. Yeah. You know.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah. I would argue I cannot listen for nine hours. I will read that book faster than that.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, well, that's true. It's a lot faster to read.

[Paul Thurrott]

Well, because my opportunity, like, maybe I'm going for a walk, going to the gym, shaving and stuff, you know, I. But it competes with podcasts and music, actually, and it just gets lost in the mix. Whereas I dedicate time to reading every single day. So I'll just.

[Leo Laporte]

I have so many books I want to read. I couldn't finish all the books I want to read. If I listen 24 hours, it's all.

[Richard Campbell]

About airplanes for me. Right. 400 hours a year. You can get through a lot of books.

[Leo Laporte]

A lot of books.

[Paul Thurrott]

It's good.

[Leo Laporte]

I will read this. That sounds.

[Paul Thurrott]

I think you're both going to love it. I don't want it to. It's not an opinion piece. It's an examination of how it all came together.

[Leo Laporte]

What artificial intelligence can do, what it can't. How to Tell the Difference, Published by Princeton University Press. Arvind Naranyan and Sayesh Kapoor are the authors.

[Paul Thurrott]

They're not Joe Rogan types. They're. They're not just asking questions.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, I'm just asking. I'm just asking questions. Interesting.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

Where Do. Where are we now? I'm all lost.

[Paul Thurrott]

All right, so yesterday we go from the dark Sasha Suri to. To OneDrive, OneDrive, which, you know, they had this big event yesterday. OneDrive, Wave, whatever. Who cares? They're using AI, of course.

[Leo Laporte]

In an event I didn't even know about.

[Paul Thurrott]

I know. I knew it. I couldn't see it. They screwed up the live stream. It was unbelievable. Yeah. So there's commercial and consumer stuff, obviously, a lot of the Microsoft 365 copilot stuff. OneDrive is the obvious place for that. But for consumers, the big thing is fixing search, fixing the mobile client, by the way, to be what it should have always been, which is just for your photos. Right. Back up your photos, do stuff with your photos. Smart. So that's good. They're adding colored folders in File Explorer, so that's fine.

[Leo Laporte]

Pretty.

[Paul Thurrott]

No word yet on if they're going to get rid of the insertification of auto forcing folder backup on you yet, but maybe we can dream.

[Leo Laporte]

Hey, OneDrive is your gateway to seamlessly managing files, photos and memories across. We're coming everywhere in between, don't you know?

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, it's a gateway.

[Leo Laporte]

It's a gateway.

[Richard Campbell]

You want to talk about fussing? Talk about how many apps on my new Pixel 9 complain that I haven't turned on notifications for them.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, isn't that annoying?

[Richard Campbell]

It's crazy.

[Leo Laporte]

They shouldn't be allowed to even ask.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. When you, when you buy a new phone like you just did, do you do a clean install or do you actually, like, recover?

[Richard Campbell]

I do the migrate.

[Paul Thurrott]

You do? Yeah, that's what most people do. I always do. I almost always do a, like a clean install and then I spend two months dealing with what you just described of some kind.

[Richard Campbell]

You still have to deal with it. You still have to log into each app and none of the, none of your. Your settings have carried across for each app. So you're still adjusting all of that.

[Paul Thurrott]

This is a.

[Richard Campbell]

The only thing I can say is that the authenticators move across. Except for, you know, if you're using a Google Authenticator, all your Google apps are broken. And if you're using the Microsoft Authenticator, all the Microsoft apps are open, but everything else is fine.

[Paul Thurrott]

The Google Authenticator is nice because it syncs, but the Microsoft Authenticator you have to have for your Microsoft stuff, it's just. You have to have it.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, it does.

[Paul Thurrott]

Backup, restore.

[Richard Campbell]

Each Microsoft product has to be reset.

[Paul Thurrott]

I'[e-mail] for two hours going through like.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, it's Is that true on iPhone as well or.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, it's the same. I will say if you're an Apple guy, because this has been the year Paul apologizes for Apple. Apparently they. Well, there's something about Apple because Apple does icloud and then Apple, which, you.

[Leo Laporte]

Know, these other companies, they also have centralized notification.

[Paul Thurrott]

Well, but they also have set because of the way they do apps. Other companies that are Apple, you know, Apple followers kind of do the same thing. So if you're an Apple guy, you could install an app and have all your stuff just be there automatically. Like. That's right. More common. I feel like this should be a standard that regardless of the platform, desktop or mobile, that you should be able to do what Richard described. It's a problem like I can automate my app installs on new laptops, which I do with winget, which is awesome. When I kiss the configuration of those apps. And I actually have some folders of configurations that I literally copy over. I have scripts, I write that copy them to where that app is after it's installed because I hate going through the process of manually configuring them. But you still have to sign in. You still have, you know, there's, there's. It's a pain. It's a real. It's. This is a problem that I feel is solvable but has never been solved. Anyway, OneDrive is not solving that problem.

[Leo Laporte]

But thank you very much.

[Paul Thurrott]

But they're adding new storage tiers so you can buy 5 terabyte or 10 terabyte storage tiers.

[Richard Campbell]

Oh, interesting.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

If you have 10 parabytes of stuff.

[Paul Thurrott]

You have too much, you have a problem. Yeah, you should be on a TV show on the Bravo station where people go through your digital files.

[Richard Campbell]

Digital Hoarders.

[Leo Laporte]

Digital Hoarders. That would be a fun show. You guys should host that. That would be so much fun.

[Paul Thurrott]

Well, I mean, it's just. You know, what you don't get is this snake coming out from the bottom of the pile or whatever. No, but I could see the mushrooms that are growing.

[Leo Laporte]

What? Throw that out. Get rid of that. What is that? What are you doing?

[Paul Thurrott]

Why do you have a scanned Circuit city ad from 1999 or whatever?

[Leo Laporte]

Very funny boy.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. All right. Anyway, okay, so that's happened or is happening. NET9 release candidate to write on schedule. No new features. So for me, wpf. That's not getting fixed. I mean, I kind of knew that, but I hold out hope. Every milestone. Maybe. Maybe. No. So they did the thing they did in May and that was the end of that. So fine, I don't care. You care, I don't care. And then just randomly, because that's what this section is. Microsoft issued the last software update for its Surface Duo dual screen Android device today. Oh, it's so sad.

[Leo Laporte]

We hardly knew ye Surface Duo. That was the phone that.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, it wasn't a phone, Leo. They were very clear about that.

[Leo Laporte]

Maybe that was.

[Paul Thurrott]

I mean it was obviously a phone.

[Leo Laporte]

But maybe they should have admitted it was a phone.

[Paul Thurrott]

They released exactly one Android version upgrade.

[Leo Laporte]

That's shameful.

[Paul Thurrott]

I know. They disagree.

[Leo Laporte]

Four years, five years.

[Paul Thurrott]

This is three years from Surface Duo 2, which is what I'm talking about. Sorry. It's four years since Surface Duo 1. Yeah, okay. Sorry, sorry, sorry. Four years. Four or five years. I don't remember. Yes. Somewhere in there.

[Leo Laporte]

It's been a long time.

[Paul Thurrott]

It has been a long time. Yeah. So it's a Surface Duo too. Both of these versions are on Android 12L. I know they're three years old. Guys, come on.

[Leo Laporte]

They did not care about this non phone.

[Richard Campbell]

It was an Arfen, which is too.

[Leo Laporte]

Bad because it was real.

[Paul Thurrott]

I really, it was kind of fun. I. It was obviously a stepping stone to a folding screen device. I just knew it was a mistake. I think there was and maybe still is a place in the world for Surface branded devices that run Android. I could imagine a Surface Pro alike, or a Surface Pro I guess they call it, that ran Android. I could see this. Right?

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

Running Microsoft 360, 65 apps and services. Right. Why not?

[Leo Laporte]

But why not?

[Paul Thurrott]

I don't know. They don't do it. So here we are such an.

[Richard Campbell]

You are not even talking about the Duo. You're talking about the Duo too.

[Paul Thurrott]

Duo too. Right. Sorry about that.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

Remember this lunch? It was fifteen hundred dollars when it was new. And what man would have.

[Leo Laporte]

You know, both Mary Jo and I bought the first.

[Paul Thurrott]

I know, I just. That was a weird one for her because I, I was like, I'm like what are you doing? You. I have to see it. I have to see it. You know, stuff like that.

[Leo Laporte]

I really liked it. I can't remember if I got the two and then turned that back into. I think I might have.

[Paul Thurrott]

Right.

[Leo Laporte]

I really kept hope alive.

[Paul Thurrott]

I think by the. Well, even by the first one probably they had, you know, Samsung had their folding devices. They started with the big, you know, the tall one and you know, I know there were problems in the beginning, but there were clearly to be solved. And I just. A two screen device to now Today doesn't make a lot of sense unless you have like a folding thing inside. Then, you know, one on the outside, which is what? The fold.

[Richard Campbell]

That's the pixel fold.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, the pixel fold does that as well. Yeah. Yep.

[Leo Laporte]

And the Samsung. They all do. They all do.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, they all do. It's a good, you know, it's a. Whatever.

[Richard Campbell]

It's screens everywhere.

[Leo Laporte]

All right, let's pause Xbox. Coming up, the best number one selling whiskey in the world.

[Richard Campbell]

Selling number one.

[Leo Laporte]

Not the best, just the number one.

[Richard Campbell]

Selling best is a funny concept.

[Leo Laporte]

Whiskey in the world. Coming up, Paul Thurat, Richard Campbell. You're watching Windows Weekly, the show brought to you today by 1Password. We, we talked about a company for a long time called collide and 1Password acquired them and now they've put the two together. They've made this incredible peanut butter and jelly sandwich they call 1Password Extended Access Management. Let me ask you a rhetorical question because I know the answer. Do your end users always work on company owned devices and IT approved apps? They never bring in their own devices, do they? Of course they do. Right. So how do you keep your company's data safe when it's sitting on all those unmanaged apps and all those unmanaged BYOD devices? 1Password as an answer to that question. Extended Access Management. Brand new and it's really cool. 1Password Extended Access Management helps to secure every sign in for every app on every device because it solves the problems traditional IAM and MDM cannot touch. If you think of your company's security like the quad of a college campus, you know, they're nice brick paths between the buildings. Those are the company owned devices, the IT approved apps, the managed employee identities. And then of course, they're the paths people actually use. The shortcuts worn through the grass that actually are the straightest line from point A to point B. Those are the unmanaged devices, the shadow IT apps, the non employee identities. Like contractors on your network, most security tools only work on those happy brick paths. But really in the real world, a lot of security problems happen on the shortcuts and the shortcuts will get worn into those paths. That's why you need 1Password. Extended Access Management. It's the first security solution that brings all these unmanaged devices and apps and identities under your control. It ensures that every user credential is strong and protected, every device is known and healthy, and every app is visible. It's real security for the way we work today. Now generally available to companies that use Okta or Microsoft Entra and they have a beta for Google Workspace customers. It really works. Check it [e-mail] Windows Weekly. That's the number1Password.com great idea from 1Password. I think you're going to be interested and we thank you so much for supporting Windows Weekly by going to 1Password.com Windows Weekly. Back to the show. And now we give Paul Thurat the stage because it's time for the long awaited, much loved Xbox segment.

[Paul Thurrott]

Xbox. Ding. I have shocking.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh wait a minute. He's got it. He's got it. Yeah, the backwards Halo.

[Paul Thurrott]

Halo, but not Halo. I don't have anything bad to say so awesome about Xbox this week and I even have two Xbox related back of the book entries. What tip. And both. I know. Yeah, I know. This is a live performance in the house.

[Leo Laporte]

Yes. It's a small audience but enthusiastic.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, well there you go. That's the Halo audience. So there were rumors of this a couple years ago and then a couple years before that, but Microsoft revealed in a very convoluted way that they are shifting Halo to the Unreal Engine 5. They were using their own house rendering engine previous to this. This was a huge problem because they had to maintain it, keep it up to date, support it, make sure it was had all the features, all the big guys had and then they would hire people and no one knew how to use it. So they'd have to spend time and money training those people on the engine.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, don't build your own engine. It's a mistake.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep. And okay, they showed to do a proof of concept. They created a project. It's not a game, it's not going to turn into a game. But they basically just recreated Halo worlds and environments, I should say, and characters and vehicles and things and damn, it looks good. And this has come up a bunch but Leo and I live covered an event where they announced Halo Infinite, the current game. And it looked like an 8 bit super NES port. It was like the saddest looking. And I thought what they were going to do was that thing at the beginning of the wizard of Oz where it's in black and white and then black and white, glorious color. I thought it was going to go into glorious 4K and then, yeah, then it ended and I said isn't. I mean couldn't the original, you know, ID engine from Quake do this? Like what is, what is happening here? So it got better. You know, they delayed it a year and whatever but they then spent the next year and a Half kind of dripping out the features that all were supposed to ship in the beginning. But this thing, you got to look at this video. It's awesome.

[Leo Laporte]

Unreal Engine is, let's face it, really unbelievably gorgeous.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

Unbelievable.

[Leo Laporte]

Now let me play a little bit.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, play a little bit. Yeah, go back. You have to dive into it to find the scenes from the environments and stuff. But I'll say while you're looking for that as part of this. You know, obviously with Halo, it's sort of like Star Wars. We have these different eras and we have the Bungie era and we have the 343 era. If we were to take a vote, I think we'd all agree the Bungie era was a little bit better.

[Leo Laporte]

So this is a behind the scenes kind of thing. Oh, look at that. This is Unreal Engine.

[Richard Campbell]

That's unreal.

[Leo Laporte]

It looks real.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah. I love the light blooms.

[Leo Laporte]

Holy moly.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep.

[Leo Laporte]

So I guess they've got the. The drawings, the artwork, and then they're showing how they rendered it. Wow, this is amazing. Oh, Halo never looks so good.

[Paul Thurrott]

I know.

[Leo Laporte]

Now I want to get. I want to jump in that this.

[Paul Thurrott]

Is only part of the problem with Halo. Right. So.

[Leo Laporte]

Well, you have to have a good.

[Paul Thurrott]

But you want to. You want to modernize the engine or, you know, get a modernized engine. In this case, I guess it has to look good for starters. And so this looks good. You know, it looks good. Yeah. So they are not. They're not ready. It's not coming out anytime soon. But they're working on multiple Halo titles. They are actively hiring, by the way. In sharp contrast to the rest of the video game industry. They've renamed the studio from 344, 343 Industries to Halo Studios.

[Leo Laporte]

They should call it 344. That would be fun.

[Paul Thurrott]

Steve Jobs, it's what's next.

[Leo Laporte]

One more. It's one best one more.

[Paul Thurrott]

To me, the problem with Halo wasn't so much how it looked, because Halo, if it looks pretty good, it's fine. It's that it's boring and the same old thing over and over again.

[Leo Laporte]

At least it should be pretty. If you're gonna be boring, be pretty.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. I referred to it as a cure for a video game addiction. It certainly worked for me. So it's like the patch but for video. Video games. So, yeah, I mean, they have to get story right. They have to, you know, we'll see what they do. But they, they've been on this real monolithic path for a long Time and I think it's fair to say, you know, Halo 4 or 5 and now Infinite, you know, like not, not, not great. So we'll see what they come up with. But the, But I mean, looks great.

[Leo Laporte]

It'll look good. That's.

[Paul Thurrott]

It's gonna look good and look good.

[Leo Laporte]

You know, else looks good. Flight sim looks good.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

Is that, that's not Unreal Engine, though. That's its own.

[Paul Thurrott]

I doubt it. That's a good question.

[Leo Laporte]

It's a good engine, whatever it is.

[Paul Thurrott]

Now you're going to have to have a really serious computer to play this effectively. So they are. They're kind of dribbling out details about this game, which is coming out November, right into November. So they're going to have a, what they're calling a tech technical alpha because Microsoft can't name anything for PC. And let me see if I can find the specs on this thing. I mean, for this thing to work you have to literally submit your DxDag file. If anyone's not heard of this.

[Leo Laporte]

If you DirectX settings and diagnostics.

[Paul Thurrott]

It's been a while since I've run this. If you do like Windows key R and type in dx, it's the direct diagnostic tool, I guess. DX Diag, I guess. And it scans your system and it tells you how powerful it is. And you can save all the information you have to send this to them and they will determine whether or not you can play this game.

[Leo Laporte]

We'll be the judge you qualify on PC.

[Paul Thurrott]

I think they're going to get a lot of no's, you know. Wow. I can tell you that my Snapdragon X, it made a laughing sound when I submitted it. But yeah, so we talked about this whenever they first announced this. Some ridiculous number, like I think it was a 4000X. Some stupid like impossible number. More detailed than the previous game, which by the way, awesome. You know, it still does. And so we'll see but.

[Leo Laporte]

And you can get out of your plane and walk around, right?

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, I know, it's crazy. They're rendering every individual grain of dirt and sand and rock and blade of grass and it's the stupidest thing I've ever heard of. But it sounds great doing it. So here we go.

[Leo Laporte]

Sounds great. I don't actually want to be in the plane. I just want to fly somewhere and get out and walk around.

[Paul Thurrott]

I. Yeah, I want to stand on it when it's flying. Like those guys used to do 30s, they'd all stand on the biplane and do the Go Go's thing.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

All right. What else we got? So that's good news, I guess. You know, whatever. It's gonna be awesome. Red Dead Redemption, which people might remember was one of the great Xbox games 200 years ago. When did that come out? Like 2010. Like that long time ago.

[Leo Laporte]

It lasted a long time, though. I mean, they had a lot.

[Paul Thurrott]

Oh, no, it's. Honestly, it's still a great game today. So it's going to.

[Richard Campbell]

This is a red Dead Redemption 2, right?

[Paul Thurrott]

Yes. Yeah, yeah. So they're bringing it to the PC, which is really interesting. I think this might be part of a broader. Actually, the next. Actually, I left a story out here. Okay. I'll add this other story. But as part of their, you know, bringing Xbox to more platforms kind of strategy. Right. So it's interesting to me that we're looking into. This is Rockstar, not Microsoft. But I mean that, you know, maybe this is part of a thing. Maybe Microsoft is talking to these guys, say, hey, we have an idea. We figured out that the.

[Leo Laporte]

I mean, the Xbox is not an intel, you know what I processor.

[Paul Thurrott]

Actually, it's AMD. So it is.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, it's an X86.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. I don't know. Like, I see things like, for example, Alien Isolation, which is about to get a sequel finally. Right. Is on the iPad. So that's clearly a port of whatever original PC, whatever it was. I don't know. So, I mean, I feel like this. We've gotten to the point where devices are so powerful that this stuff is easier, I guess. I mean. Anyway, obviously the PC can handle this. I mean, look at it.

[Leo Laporte]

It looks like an Xbox game. Really. I mean. Yeah, it has that. It's not.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. But. But, you know, should be able to handle this. No problem.

[Leo Laporte]

Sure, it's cool and I think it'll be more fun on a PC.

[Paul Thurrott]

But they're going to support like super widescreen aspect ratios, HDR 10. They're going to do all the FreeSync stuff. Great. Why not? Good. So that's fun. Microsoft. I don't know if this is real or official and I didn't link to it. I apologize. But it looks like Diablo 4 is going to be the first game ported to the PS5 that will be upscaled and have all the PS5 goodness as well. I guess I missed that somehow. But that happened this week as well. So that's happening and. Oh, no, there it is. I'm sorry. It is there. Oh, I had it. I'm sorry. It is in the notes. Yeah. So It's. I thought I skipped it. Sorry.

[Richard Campbell]

So this means there is work going on inside of Blizzard.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep. Yep.

[Leo Laporte]

People love the new DLC for Diablo.

[Paul Thurrott]

It has an awesome name to it. What? Do you remember the name?

[Leo Laporte]

I remember the name. No, I can't. I can't either, but I do.

[Paul Thurrott]

Oh, Vessel of hatred.

[Leo Laporte]

Vessel.

[Paul Thurrott]

That's what I call it.

[Richard Campbell]

See, like that.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, I've dated that woman. So. Yeah. Anyway, that's good. So it's all good stuff. And yeah, after, I have more good news. In fact, I have even better news for video game fans. After the break.

[Leo Laporte]

Coming up after the break. After the break.

[Paul Thurrott]

Oh, you know, I don't get this much anymore, Leo. It's usually just, you know, everything.

[Richard Campbell]

He knows a throw when he sees one.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, he's going for it. He's good.

[Paul Thurrott]

All right.

[Leo Laporte]

Yes. Plus something we've been teasing all show long. The number one selling whiskey in the world.

[Richard Campbell]

Not number one selling.

[Leo Laporte]

No, not number one selling.

[Richard Campbell]

No.

[Leo Laporte]

Number one something.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah. Number have won the award for the best whiskey in the world.

[Leo Laporte]

The best whiskey. Not the best selling. No, just the best.

[Paul Thurrott]

That's a crazy accolade, but okay.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, no, it's. We could debate the award, but wait till you see the whiskey.

[Leo Laporte]

All right, I look forward to that. Coming up, back of the book. You're watching Windows Weekly. Paul Thurrott, Richard Campbell. If you like this show, I hope you do. I think you do. If you're still here, you must. Here we are an hour and a half in. Can I ask a favor? I'd like you to join the club and support this show and all the shows we do. Support the team, the staff, the wonderful people that bring it to you by joining the club. It's only seven bucks a month. It's nothing. That's nothing. But the benefits are great. You get ad free versions of all the shows. You get access to the club Twit Discord offer. Not available in Russia and Turkey, but everywhere else. You get access to the club, Twitter, Discord. You get to see the behind the scenes stuff we're going to do, like the build your own piece segment that Richard is going to do coming up sometime later this year. We also have Micah's crafting corner coming up this week, Stacy's book club. Next week, or actually next week is Coffee. We're doing another coffee episode with the coffee geek, Mark Prince. This one we're going to cover. Beans. Coffee beans. There is as much going into coffee beans as there is, you know, wine and whiskey. This is. This Is a Connoisseurs episode coming up. All of this for just seven bucks a month. All you have to do is go to Twit TV clubtwit. We would love you to join. And oh by the way, if you're already a club member and you're seeing this, tell a friend you get a free month for every person you refer. That's our new referral program. That's fantastic. That means you could be, you know, it could be free. Just tell 12 friends, that's all. And it helps us a lot because it spreads the word. Twit tv. This episode quite literally brought to you by Cashfly. You hear me say it all the time on every show. Bandwidth for Windows Weekly is provided by Cashfly. It's E A C H e f l y.com for over 20 years, CashFly has held the track record for high performing ultra reliable content Delivery serving over 5,000 companies in over 80 countries. We're one of them. We've been using Cashfly almost since the beginning. I mean if it weren't for Cash Flow, I don't know if Twit would even exist. We love their lag free video loading, their hyper fast downloads, the friction free site interactions. Cash Flow is the only CDN built for throughput. They offer get this ultra low latency video streaming over a million concurrent users with latency of less than one second. I don't know how they do that. That's amazing. Lightning fast gaming delivers downloads faster with with zero lag glitches or outages. And if you have a website or any site that has images, you'll love mobile content optimization. Automatic simple image optimization that will get it so that your site works on any size screen, loads faster on any size device and it does it automatically. Cachefly did something really important to us. We weren't sure when we started. Well, we know our bandwidth's really small spiky, you know, when Windows Weekly comes out, it's huge on Wednesdays and then it trickles off the rest of the week. We don't know how much peak bandwidth we need, that kind of thing. They gave us flexible month to month billing for as long as we needed and as soon. And they'll do this for you too by the way. It's not just us, they'll do this for you too. And as soon as you figure out what exactly you need, you can get a discount by signing up for fixed term. The point really is you design your own contract when you switch to Cash Fly. So to summarize, Cash Fly delivers rich media content up to 158% faster than other major CDNs and allows you to shield your site content in their cloud. We've been doing that for a long time, which means there's no cash misses. You get 100% cash hit ratio and with Cashflies Elite managed packages you get the VIP treatment. The best support anywhere. Your dedicated account manager is with you from day one, ensuring a smooth implementation. Reliable 24. 7 Support when you need it. Learn how you can get your first month [e-mail] TWiT that's C A C H E F L Y.com TWiT thank you CashFly for supporting TWiT all these years. We really appreciate it. Now, time for the Back of the Book Paul Thurrott's Tip of the Week.

[Paul Thurrott]

So technically I have three more Audible picks if you want that.

[Leo Laporte]

Okay, we'll take it.

[Paul Thurrott]

But first there's a long awaited sequel to the game. Stalker Stalker 2 is coming out in November. It looks awesome, but they made a documentary about the making of the games because these folks are in Ukraine and between the pandemic and the Russian invasion and just life, it's been a horrific time for them and this story is incredible. They actually take the team into the Chernobyl exclusion zone and walk around in there. So I one of my weird like I'm into. I'm super interested in certain things for some reason, but Chernobyl has always fascinated me. There was a documentary I'd watched about Chernobyl maybe three, four years ago and talking about like animal life has flourished but just the whole post apocalyptic thing. You walk in the classrooms and the houses and it's all trees are going through the floor, all that. So this has all that. It's possibly the best of those types of documentaries. So there's the making of the video game, the history that's occurring, the history that occurred that influenced the first game. I showed my wife the trailer and she's going to watch it with me again. So I think it's something that might be of interest to non gamers as well.

[Leo Laporte]

But it's so what era is this is a long time ago.

[Paul Thurrott]

Well, so the original game is from I want to say 15 years ago ish 2007. Something like that.

[Leo Laporte]

Looks like pretty old.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. When you look at the new game, I mean it's just like that Halo thing. It's just modern and gorgeous. It's crazy. It looks awesome. But aside from the game, which is probably going to be great, I'm Just talking about the documentary. It's free. It's on YouTube.

[Leo Laporte]

It is, yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

I'm.

[Leo Laporte]

We're watching it right now.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, it's awesome.

[Leo Laporte]

The making of Stalker 2.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep.

[Leo Laporte]

Cool.

[Paul Thurrott]

So there's that concurrent with this, that book that I think I mentioned earlier, Jason Schreier has written Play Nice, which is the history of Blizzard entertainment. And this one's fascinating to me. I. I found out after the fact that he's written two other books which I also own and loved and have recommended in the past. So he wrote Blood, Sweat and Pixels, the, you know, the history of the video game industry or how video games are made.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, yeah, I press that one. Yeah, that's great.

[Paul Thurrott]

And press Reset, Ruin and recovery in the video game industry. So he speaks to over 300 former and current Blizzard employees to get this kind of full history. It's astonishing. Like, it's amazing. And you know, these guys like me basically are like, I just want to make video games. And they good connections and got into the business. We're doing contract video games, of course, they want to make their own video games and they come up with Warcraft and then Diablo and then World of Warcraft, which is the thing that shot them through the roof. But they merged or were acquired by Activision, became Activision Blizzard. So there's that whole story. But there's this stuff that happens before then. They were owned by Vivendi, which almost went out of business, and they were sold to this company that had all this financial mismanagement and were sued by the SS and almost went out of business and all this stuff. It's a crazy story, but it goes right up through Microsoft acquiring that company, obviously at the end of last year. I kind of hoped it was a little bit more about the Microsoft stuff. I'm dying to know. But the whole downfall under Bobby Kotick and Activision is. It's unbelievable. It's a crazy story. And it's on Audible if you want to. Nice listen to it.

[Leo Laporte]

Good recommendation.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, it's great.

[Leo Laporte]

And an App of the week.

[Paul Thurrott]

Oh, yeah, that too. So Brad, my friend Brad, my buddy Brad, they just can't actually. This is. This is one I'm really excited to use. In fact, I'm excited to use it for Hands On Windows, the other twit podcast that I do, because it's a product called Multiplicity, which they've not updated in a long time. And now this, they've got a major version coming out, Multiplicity 4, which is available in beta one form now. It's a software KVM. So a keyboard solution. Yeah, it looks really, really good. So for people who have multiple computers they want to access but, you know, have the one. Look, I'm uncoordinated, maybe it's a dexterity problem, but if I have two systems in front of me with two keyboards and two mice, I'm always touching the wrong one. And this is constant. I can't not do it. So this is very attractive to me. And it's not there today in beta 1, but by the time this thing ships later this year, there will be a native version for ARM as well.

[Richard Campbell]

Nice.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, Something to look at.

[Richard Campbell]

There's a way to plug in that dev device I'm never going to get.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yes, exactly. Right, exactly. Don't dedicate a mouse and a. Well, a mouse, a screen or a keyboard. Right. Yeah, it's beautiful, right? Yep. So exciting.

[Leo Laporte]

All right, very nice. Moving right along time for Richard Campbell. And should we kick things off with a run as radio pick?

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah. This week's show I did with Doug Finke, we talked a bit about OpenAI and PowerShell. So kind of came into a two part conversation because the first part was using OpenAI technologies like ChatGPT and Copilot and GitHub Copilot to write better PowerShell. And Doug talked about getting into things like pester the testing framework for PowerShell which he learned working through Copilot like that. It literally led him down the path of how to write more testable PowerShell and to make that part of his build process. So the quality of his PowerShell dramatically better. But he's also got a library now that allows that calls into the OpenAI API. So his PowerShell scripts are interactive with full language. So instead of having, you know, press one for this, press two for that. You, you have much more better communication inside of your PowerShell script using OpenAI on the backend.

[Paul Thurrott]

Nice.

[Richard Campbell]

So it's good. It was very fun, cool conversation and interesting stuff. Psa.

[Leo Laporte]

I like his picture. It's a little different than the usual pictures you have.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, well, he had the.

[Paul Thurrott]

He.

[Richard Campbell]

He's got a cartoon picture done about. He said, can I use that? I'm going to. I'm going to 8bitify it. So that's how it turned out.

[Leo Laporte]

I love it. Very cute.

[Richard Campbell]

A little different.

[Paul Thurrott]

All right.

[Leo Laporte]

What could possibly be the best whiskey of the year?

[Richard Campbell]

I mean, generally speaking, I'm not big on whiskey awards because they, you know, I've done enough award programs with my own business to know perfectly well how manipulable they all are. However, the San Francisco World Spirit Competition is one of the oldest running anywhere in the world. It is as far as whiskey competitions go, they are pretty dang legit. And this year's winner is for the the number one spirit in the world is a Talisker, which is very unusual. They haven't won a major award in a decade. The Talisker 45 year old glacial Edge. So this surprises me too because old whiskeys tend not to win this sort of thing, right? You normally are, you're, it's. You really get a 12, it'll win, it'll be an 18 or a 20. But a 45 is pretty darn rare. Now this is a Diageo product and it's. The link I provided is actually to the Diageo Rare and exceptional site. Just all a bit of concerning. Again, this feels like ridiculous hype. So this means that in the late 70s, early 80s, which means before, before Diageo even existed, Talisker laid up a set of barrels and put them somewhere safe so that this, that 40 years later it was still whiskey. And the last few years they did some interesting finishing. So enter a guy named James Aiken. And James Aiken is an adventurer who had for the past five years been sailing single handed in a 33 foot sailboat called the Oaken Yarn. And one of his sponsors was Talisker. And one of the things he did for Talisker is he took a bunch of barrel staves with him on his Atlantic crossing. Those staves were then made into barrels to finish off this 40 year old.

[Leo Laporte]

So the whiskey wasn't taken on the expedition, just the barrels.

[Richard Campbell]

The barrels were exposed, the stades. So it's their pieces, right. And they called this the Expedition Oak series. Now there's been a few of these and it's kind of interesting, but this particular one that when I call Glacial Edge, they went one step further. They took a bunch of what they called, this is the quote, American oak, Canadian whiskey casks.

[Paul Thurrott]

Uh huh.

[Richard Campbell]

So I go and do it's Diageo. So who's it got to be? It's got to be Crown Royal, right? And Crown Royal uses charred American oak casks, often used ones too. So they took 10 of those, they took 12 of those casts and they took them to the high Arctic and left them outside for four days. The extreme cold supposedly creates cracking so that opens up the wood to additional new flavors. So they did a finishing treatment in this last iteration with this. And again this is all ridiculous, pretentious crap.

[Leo Laporte]

Right.

[Richard Campbell]

But the only part I would buy into this is James Aiken is one of the supports. This thing called Parlay for the oceans where they talk of communicating about the beauty and the fragility of the ocean like it's a good charity. And I have nothing bad to say about that. Adventure is often to tie these two things together. But the best whiskey tasters in the world have called this the best whiskey in the world. That's it works quote is elegance personified. They. They've also said things like I don't care about the silly cask toys and games you played. This is really good whiskey. And you're never gonna have any. Oh there's there's maybe 800 bottles of this in the world.

[Leo Laporte]

I noticed the button on the website doesn't say buy. It says.

[Paul Thurrott]

It says.

[Richard Campbell]

Currently listed on E. The last retail price I could find was €4,000. If you look on eBay running about $8,000.

[Leo Laporte]

Wow.

[Richard Campbell]

And no whiskey is that good.

[Leo Laporte]

Wow.

[Richard Campbell]

Right. That is a lot of money for a drink. But yeah. Something interesting happened here. It's a little. It's kept. Here's the crazy part. For a Whiskey that old 49.8. That's surprising.

[Leo Laporte]

That's high. That's high, right?

[Richard Campbell]

A little bit. I mean obviously they have not cut it with any. I guarantee it's not chill filtered or anything like that. In my experience with whiskey these all this old is they tend to be pretty tarry.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

Like they're not a lot of fun.

[Leo Laporte]

So that is unusual. It's not designed to age.

[Richard Campbell]

Like I mean I have to wonder if I go to the Craig Elachi which is on my radar for early next year if there won't be a bottle open.

[Paul Thurrott]

Oh.

[Richard Campbell]

Because the reflection like a few of these other very rare whiskeys are often there. Although they're typically. You're talking about a shot an ounce for a thousand or fifteen hundred pound when it's a ten thousand dollar bottle. And I've always avoided those for that reason because there's only two outcomes.

[Leo Laporte]

How good could it be? Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

Well, I either dropped a grand on a shot and it wasn't good or I dropped a grand on a shot. It's amazing. And now I'm going to get divorced. So buy a 10,000 because I want another one. This is not a good idea. Like just stay away from that. You're only going to hurt yourself.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah. But don't want what you can't have.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah. And let's. And I was ultimately not worthwhile. But it's it's surprising to me to see these absurd old whiskies where these really qualified guys are going. Man, that's a really special whiskey. How about that?

[Leo Laporte]

What? It's okay. Obviously it's not the barrel staves on the sailboat and it's not the Arctic cracking. What makes it so good do you think?

[Richard Campbell]

I think the. Considering 40 of the 45 years were in one place.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. That's.

[Richard Campbell]

I think they put it. I think they put it in the best spot in the Rick house. Most likely they put it underground. Yeah. Off. Off the ground but in a very cool stable area so that it could. The ABV drop was very low. That would have gone into the barrel at 62. Right.

[Leo Laporte]

And it came out almost 50. Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

So to only use lose 10% in 40 years is a very, very slow drop. That means the humidity stays stable, temperature stays stable. It was a very easy age.

[Leo Laporte]

That's really. You know what, that's some good detective work.

[Paul Thurrott]

That's. What about the environment though? Could they go in and check on it from time to. I think this was sealed the whole time.

[Richard Campbell]

No, no. I go it'll. But it'll be the back end of the Rick house like or. Or it'll even be a seller. You know there's a funny thing and I haven't gotten into this story too much like especially with things like Port Ellen's like distilleries that have been closed that towards the end they started stashing barrels with friends essentially. So not necessarily in a proper Rick house but. And that's what I'm thinking. This dozen or so barrels that were involved in this process. They weren't in a Rick house. They were in a cellar.

[Paul Thurrott]

Right.

[Richard Campbell]

Right.

[Leo Laporte]

Seller. Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

Something like that. Or it's the. An old storage room of Talisman. Talisker's been there 100 plus years. Right. There's a lower storage room that people don't normally go in and it just quietly sat in there.

[Leo Laporte]

Doesn't it intrigue you though just the idea that. Wouldn't you like to taste that just to.

[Richard Campbell]

This is what I'm saying. Like normally I would avoid this at the place.

[Paul Thurrott]

Right.

[Richard Campbell]

But this one because I'm. Most of the time when they don't win awards. This is not a thing. Right.

[Paul Thurrott]

Old.

[Richard Campbell]

Old whiskeys like this. This is weird. And you realize like Diageo's not even in this for the money. There's not enough bottles for it to matter.

[Paul Thurrott]

Right.

[Richard Campbell]

Right. So this is almost. It's just a weirdo.

[Leo Laporte]

It's Prestige. Wouldn't you know, you brought you. Richard, you should be on these panels so that you would get to taste these.

[Richard Campbell]

I don't know that I'm that good of a taster. Oh, right. Like, I. I've dealt with folks who have. Who can take three parts of a whiskey. Right. The. From the individual barrels and tell. And then say, try this. And he says, that's got this element for it. And that's one that. This element. We put them together. It's like this. And I try them all. And like, these are all pretty good.

[Paul Thurrott]

This is experience. Or just like a super taster phenomenon.

[Leo Laporte]

That's the thing. Experience. But you also have to have a genetic predisposition.

[Richard Campbell]

I think there's a. There could be a genetic element to it. There's certainly the concept of a supertaster. Yeah. Although you don't want to be that sensitive, these are still very strong flavors and certainly a lot of experience. And I'm. Yeah, I'm pressing against the edges of my passion here, guys. I love. I love great craftsmen, and I love a great story. The idea of sitting in a room sampling individual, you know, a dozen or 100 individual whiskeys, I would stab myself. Like, it's just too much. Right, right. Like, I. I've done a lot of tastings, and by the fourth or fifth one, you're like, I could be drinking paint. What do I know?

[Paul Thurrott]

Exactly. This is the whiskey version of the Table 17 or 27 wine or whatever, where you come home with a case of something from a tasting and like, what is this crap? And it was like the end table that night. Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

Turns out it was copier flute.

[Leo Laporte]

I love it.

[Richard Campbell]

So, yeah, I don't know what I could even qualify.

[Leo Laporte]

Is that a syndrome? The table 17?

[Paul Thurrott]

Well, that's what we call it. I always change the number, but, yeah, like, it's a really good table 22 wine or whatever.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, well, that's a table 22 wine.

[Paul Thurrott]

And I.

[Richard Campbell]

And then, you know, lots of folks, so too peated for me. But I would say if you're a little bit older now, like, I was not a big fat of peated whiskeys in my 40s.

[Leo Laporte]

You lose some of your taste sensitivity in my.

[Richard Campbell]

You know, you think about in the past couple of months, what have I done? I've done Beaumore. I've done Talisker.

[Paul Thurrott]

How long have you been drinking whiskey now? Yeah, well, like, where did you start.

[Leo Laporte]

When he was 21? What do you think?

[Paul Thurrott]

So, I mean, I didn't. I didn't. I. Richard Is possible. You gave me my first scotch. I was.

[Richard Campbell]

That's very late forties.

[Leo Laporte]

What? You gave him his first scotch?

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. You were there.

[Leo Laporte]

That was your first time?

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

And it's supernova, where they, you know, I'm drinking a whiskey, an unusual whiskey. You're like, I don't like whiskey. And I will immediately order you one I know you like.

[Leo Laporte]

So you drink bourbon usually, or peanut. You drink peanut butter whiskey.

[Paul Thurrott]

That's. Well, I. I don't like being reduced that way, but yeah, so what? No, no, I. Yeah, tart vodka. Yeah, I do like smoother bourbons better, but yeah, butter.

[Leo Laporte]

Is there a butter tart vodka? Because I will drink.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, there is. No, it's. Somebody gave me a bottle of it. I eventually. I eventually set fire to it. It just hurt me. You have to taste it. And after that you're just making mistakes. Right. So.

[Paul Thurrott]

Wow. We've learned it on pancakes. It's good.

[Richard Campbell]

No, it's not. You know, it's good on pancakes.

[Paul Thurrott]

Syrup. Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

Actually. You come from. Yeah, exactly. From Quebec. You come from the country of syrup. Yeah. I tasted on this cruise from the company of SAP. They brought out some remarkable.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

Barrel aged maple syrups. I would rather do that than whiskey, frankly.

[Richard Campbell]

When I.

[Paul Thurrott]

You could do a syrup tasting where they have the different. You know.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

They're so good colors. Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

I. Whenever I'm going down to New Zealand, Australia and visiting family, I bring liters of saber syrup stuff. They just can't get it. But the lead, the leader jug from Costco in Vancouver is 25.

[Paul Thurrott]

That's great.

[Richard Campbell]

A week stay.

[Paul Thurrott]

Used to bring peanut butter to England when my father lived there because they couldn't get it, you know. Yeah, I'm sure they have peanut butter.

[Richard Campbell]

It's a thing. And it's one of the few foodstuffs you can bring into Australia and New Zealand because it's been boiled to death. Like, you know, the biggest. I always declare it because you have foodstuffs. The only problem I ever have at the border is that the border guard wants to get it from me. It's like, I'll trade you a pint of manuka honey for that.

[Paul Thurrott]

You should just bring a little thing.

[Richard Campbell]

For him, you know, I should. He really can't actually take it bad, you know, but you're right. I should get a couple of little ones and just add them out. But the leader jugs are prerequisite for my. My cousin on the farm and my buddies in Sydney. Even Troy Hunt has my bottle for me.

[Leo Laporte]

Really?

[Richard Campbell]

Oh, yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

Do you visit with Troy when you go down there?

[Richard Campbell]

Oh, silly. Yeah, I did his wedding.

[Leo Laporte]

I. I'm trying to remember what the. What the. You did. That's right. I think you mentioned that.

[Richard Campbell]

Wow.

[Leo Laporte]

Trying to remember the name. There was a really good. I don't have it written down. Maple syrup we had. Anyway, next time.

[Richard Campbell]

It's all good stuff.

[Leo Laporte]

Paul Thurat is@the rot.com when he's not in Roma. Norte. T H U R O T T H U R R O T T Double up on the Rs and the Ts.

[Paul Thurrott]

I picked the best brand ever.com Become a premium member.

[Leo Laporte]

That's where the good stuff hides. But there's also good stuff everywhere. All over that page, including this show. By the way, thank you, Paul, for posting it on your website. And his first ring daily that he does with that guy Brad.

[Paul Thurrott]

The other guy.

[Leo Laporte]

The other guy. We don't like to talk. Paul's books [e-mail] including Windows Everywhere and as he mentioned, the updated version of the field Guide to Windows 11. Leanpub.com Richard Campbell has two shows. Not one, not two. Actually three if you include this one.

[Richard Campbell]

Three.

[Leo Laporte]

He also has run as radio and net rocks. And they're [e-mail] Ibisa, have you done your talk? And Ibisa, are you moving on?

[Richard Campbell]

I did my talk. I did a talk in Utrecht and then I flew down today. No talking here.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, you're just there for vacation.

[Richard Campbell]

Yep. This dude name. This is the. The couple that I originally married. It got. That's this couple. They're. They're there for their 50th anniversary. So that's why we're here. So we're gonna go to Lisbon for a couple of days after this, and then I have a conference in Porto.

[Paul Thurrott]

Right. So it's good.

[Leo Laporte]

So jealous.

[Richard Campbell]

I love. I think we'll do a. I think we'll do a port next week. You should.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah. You're gonna be in Porto.

[Richard Campbell]

Why not? Again, let's do a graph.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

I think a lot of people get the restaurant, you know, tawny port and don't really understand that there are. There is amazing stuff out there.

[Richard Campbell]

Some brilliant pork.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

This is the one thing you learn as you learn more about alcohol. Any, you know, tequila is like this. Anything like, there's really good. There are premium renditions of it, you know. Yeah. There's a lot to learn there.

[Richard Campbell]

And there's craftsman behind each one of them. Right. What I like is getting in with a person who really cares about what they make and Lego too, to make that product.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, I agree.

[Richard Campbell]

Wine making in Portugal, especially up the rally, is unique.

[Leo Laporte]

We did a sherry tasting in Spain that was incredible as well. I mean, it's fun. It really is fun to get in.

[Richard Campbell]

It really is.

[Leo Laporte]

We went to the. We went to the. We started at where the grapes were grown, looked at the wine presses, then went down into town where they keep the barrels. It was just really.

[Paul Thurrott]

Sorry, what part of Spain was it?

[Richard Campbell]

Right, yeah, that's where. That's where all the sherry comes from.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, Yeah. I can't remember the town name, but it was really incredible. Yeah, it was a life changing experience, I think. Yeah, yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

Anyway, I've been holding off on doing a full on cherry piece, but it's coming because I keep having to crack the nut with different sherry finishes, so. But she's like, why are these different? And you're. Then you're in the rabbit hole and you're like, no. Yeah, it's another thing.

[Leo Laporte]

But it ties to whiskey because of the sherry casks and all finishing.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

There's a natural kind of relationship.

[Richard Campbell]

100%.

[Leo Laporte]

This is fun. Thank you, Richard Campbell. Thank you, Paul Farot. Thank you all you winners and dozers for joining us. We do the show every Wednesday, 11am Pacific, 2pm Eastern Time, 1800 UTC. We stay, thanks to the sugar industry in the United States of America. We stay in summertime until Halloween is over. So we will not be changing our clocks until November, which means we'll be at 1800 UTC until then.

[Paul Thurrott]

We will move. Yeah. So wait, Mexico.

[Leo Laporte]

Does Mexico still do summer?

[Paul Thurrott]

They don't do it anymore. So it's two hours to the East Coast. So it'll be one hour starting in beginning of November, I think, right?

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, yeah. First weekend in November because they don't want to do it in Halloween. They got to get the kids out there late at night. They literally lobbied the US Congress to change daylight saving time.

[Paul Thurrott]

They should just kill it. It's.

[Leo Laporte]

We live in such an interesting country. I tell you, just kill it. All you need is some scratch. You can get anything done.

[Richard Campbell]

You can do it.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

British. British Columbia has a law on the books that says if all of the other Pacific time zone states agree to stop changing, we're stopping too.

[Paul Thurrott]

And there you go.

[Richard Campbell]

That Washington of Oregon are already on board. It's just California city. California, since we're not going to change, it'll be over.

[Leo Laporte]

We. Here's the weird thing. We had a referendum which passed that we would stay on summertime.

[Paul Thurrott]

Okay.

[Leo Laporte]

But you can't stay on summertime without a federal. Because your time zone is standard time.

[Paul Thurrott]

Oh, right.

[Leo Laporte]

So we in effect said, oh, let's change our time zone. No, that doesn't work that way. We could stay on standard time and then you would go along with it and everybody go along with it, but you can't stay on summertime.

[Paul Thurrott]

So. Interesting. How long ago was that?

[Leo Laporte]

A couple of years ago.

[Paul Thurrott]

Nothing.

[Leo Laporte]

What a world. Yeah, I'm trying. I'm really trying hard to focus on the bright side of life.

[Paul Thurrott]

I did focus on the Xbox stuff then. Leo, it's great. Please, it's nothing going on bad there. It's just, you know, sunshiny unicorns. It's good.

[Leo Laporte]

If you want to watch, we do stream live on seven different channels. There's x.com, there's kick, that's for the right wingers. Then for the left wingers, we have LinkedIn and YouTube and Twitch. I'm making this up. And Discord for the club members. You can be on either side on that one of the aisle. And I think I maybe left something out. But anyway, we stream everywhere you can stream, so do watch us live. But if you do watch live, do me a favor, because we don't count live views. We can't sell those, so we don't advertise. You just don't buy those. So do down download a copy. That's how the advertisers count it. You can go to the website Twit TV, WW. There's a YouTube channel dedicated. Again, it doesn't count, but you could watch it there. It's a good way to share little clips. Like if you wanted to share, you know, just scare your friends with the best whiskey in the world. You could just clip that Talisker piece and send that off to them from YouTube. But for Christmas, yeah, this is. This is all I ask. Just one bottle. That's all I ask.

[Richard Campbell]

No biggie.

[Leo Laporte]

No, if you're thinking of sending me.

[Paul Thurrott]

That and you would buy that with my Amazon affiliate account, that would be. That would just be great.

[Leo Laporte]

Best way to get the show, and the way that counts for us best is to subscribe. Go to your favorite podcast player, we don't care which one, and subscribe. And you'll get it automatically every Tuesday or Wednesday after it's done, and you won't have to think about it. You can listen at your leisure, however you listen. Though we do want you to come back next week for another thrilling, gripping edition of Windows Weekly. Thanks. Paul thanks Richard. Have a great week.

[Paul Thurrott]

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[Leo Laporte]

Allow 15 days qualifying unlock device credit service ported 90 plus days with device ineligible carrier and timely redemption required.

[Paul Thurrott]

Card has no cash access and expires in six months.