WW 905: Regulated Goods Content - Astroturfing, Microsoft FY25 Q1 Earnings, Notion Mail

Summary

Episode Summary: Windows Weekly (Audio) - Episode 905

Release Date: October 30, 2024
Hosts: Leo Laporte, Paul Thurrott, Richard Campbell
Episode Title: WW 905: Regulated Goods Content - Astroturfing, Microsoft FY25 Q1 Earnings, Notion Mail

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1. Windows 24H2 Update and System Enhancements

The episode kicks off with an in-depth discussion about the latest Windows 24H2 update. Paul Thurrott highlights the strategic shift in Microsoft's update cadence, noting, "24H2 did get that preview update. 23 and 24H2 appear to be, you know, lined up again" (05:14). The hosts delve into the technical improvements, including reduced CPU usage during updates and faster reboot times. Richard Campbell expresses hope that these updates will stabilize prior issues, stating, "I'm just hoping this latest round of updates sort of settled a bunch of that stuff off" (10:04).

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2. Microsoft Copilot and AI Integration

A significant portion of the discussion centers around Microsoft's integration of AI through Copilot. Paul Thurrott elaborates on the evolution of GitHub Copilot, mentioning, "GitHub Copilot, it's been evolving. We need a term for this. It's going multi-LLM" (12:11). The conversation explores the potential for Windows to act as an orchestrator for multiple large language models (LLMs), enhancing user experience by dynamically selecting the most appropriate AI model for specific tasks. Leo Laporte adds, "Orchestrator bit. Right. And that I think Windows is the ideal environment for an Orchestrator that can pick the right LLM for the right job." (12:24).

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3. Microsoft 365 and Teams UI Changes

The hosts examine recent changes in Microsoft 365, particularly the user interface overhauls in Teams. Paul Thurrott notes, "Microsoft has proactively told people they're going to change the UI again, not till next year" (22:00), hinting at upcoming adjustments aimed at improving user navigation and functionality. Richard Campbell discusses the challenges Microsoft faces in consolidating Teams and Channels, highlighting ongoing issues with search functionality: "They just created all these different categories and now you're back to chasing around, where's my stuff?" (24:30).

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4. Notion Mail and Productivity Platform Developments

A key highlight is the introduction of Notion Mail. The hosts compare Notion's expanding platform to Microsoft’s offerings, with Paul Thurrott stating, "Notion Mail is like this. It’s like, here, look how pretty it might be someday." (44:10). They debate Notion's positioning against established productivity suites, discussing its versatility and challenges in monetization. Richard Campbell remarks on Notion's hybrid approach: "They started getting into making email and calendar apps as well. They’re trying to be like Google Workspace or Microsoft 365." (30:14).

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5. Apple's AI Features and Cross-Device Functionality

Leo Laporte shifts focus to Apple's advancements in AI, particularly the Handoff feature integrated into Microsoft 365 apps. He observes, "Now you can use the Microsoft tool you may want to use or maybe your workplace enforces you to use and it will provide that same functionality." (28:26). The discussion touches on the potential for Microsoft to develop similar cross-platform AI functionalities, enhancing seamless transitions between devices.

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6. Competition and Antitrust Issues in Cloud Services

The episode delves into the competitive dynamics between Microsoft and Google in the cloud services sector. Paul Thurrott addresses Microsoft's aggressive stance against Google's cloud licensing practices: "Microsoft responded publicly in a very aggressive way. And I'm reminded of... these two companies deserve each other." (82:20). The conversation highlights ongoing antitrust investigations in the EU, with Microsoft accusing Google of manipulating European cloud vendors against them: "Microsoft is now accusing Google of organizing that trade group and, in fact, controlling it." (82:13).

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7. AMD's Market Position and PC Hardware Innovations

Richard Campbell provides insights into AMD's recent earnings, noting significant growth despite market challenges: "Their earnings like net income was up almost 200% year over year. And their revenues... still double digits, 17%, like they're doing great." (85:03). The discussion covers AMD's competitive stance against NVIDIA and the implications of supply chain constraints, emphasizing the importance of vertical integration in hardware manufacturing.

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8. Xbox, Cloud Gaming, and Gaming Industry Trends

The trio explores the current state of Xbox and cloud gaming services. Paul Thurrott shares his positive experience with Xbox Game Pass Ultimate's cloud gaming, remarking, "The single player campaign is playable, legitimately playable." (101:42). They discuss Microsoft's strategy to diversify gaming platforms, including potential shifts to ARM-based consoles and expanding into mobile gaming. Richard Campbell raises concerns about the sustainability of high-cost game development in the evolving landscape influenced by generative AI: "The costs associated with making this content are massive... there's not a lot of new games being initiated." (118:00).

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9. AI in Everyday Technology and User Experiences

The conversation broadens to user interactions with AI-powered devices. The hosts share anecdotes about experiences with Siri and smart assistants, critiquing their responsiveness and personality. Leo Laporte humorously comments, "The true nightmare about AI is not right. That it's going to take. Bomb the world and take. It's that it's going to be annoying as hell." (56:07), reflecting on the sometimes frustrating nature of current AI integrations in consumer technology.

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10. Microsoft FY25 Q1 Earnings Overview

Towards the end, Paul Thurrott provides a brief rundown of Microsoft's FY25 Q1 earnings. Despite challenges in the personal computing segment, the productivity and intelligent cloud divisions show robust performance. He mentions, "Intelligent cloud, which has been their biggest business unit, is now their second biggest business unit, 24.1 billion. And their biggest is the productivity business processes, which is Microsoft 365, primarily 28.3 billion." (135:13). The hosts anticipate a deeper analysis once official reports and conference calls are available.

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Notable Quotes:

• Paul Thurrott (05:14): "24H2 did get that preview update. 23 and 24H2 appear to be, you know, lined up again."

• Richard Campbell (10:04): "I'm just hoping this latest round of updates sort of settled a bunch of that stuff off."

• Leo Laporte (12:24): "Orchestrator bit. Right. And that I think Windows is the ideal environment for an Orchestrator that can pick the right LLM for the right job."

• Paul Thurrott (22:00): "Microsoft has proactively told people they're going to change the UI again, not till next year."

• Richard Campbell (24:30): "They just created all these different categories and now you're back to chasing around, where's my stuff?"

• Paul Thurrott (30:14): "Notion Mail is like this. It’s like, here, look how pretty it might be someday."

• Leo Laporte (28:26): "Now you can use the Microsoft tool you may want to use or maybe your workplace enforces you to use and it will provide that same functionality."

• Paul Thurrott (82:20): "Microsoft responded publicly in a very aggressive way. And I'm reminded of... these two companies deserve each other."

• Richard Campbell (85:03): "Their earnings like net income was up almost 200% year over year. And their revenues... still double digits, 17%, like they're doing great."

• Paul Thurrott (101:42): "The single player campaign is playable, legitimately playable."

• Leo Laporte (56:07): "The true nightmare about AI is not right. That it's going to take. Bomb the world and take. It's that it's going to be annoying as hell."

• Paul Thurrott (135:13): "Intelligent cloud, which has been their biggest business unit, is now their second biggest business unit, 24.1 billion. And their biggest is the productivity business processes, which is Microsoft 365, primarily 28.3 billion."

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Conclusion

Episode 905 of Windows Weekly offers a comprehensive exploration of Microsoft's latest developments, particularly focusing on the Windows 24H2 update, AI integrations through Copilot, and the evolving landscape of cloud services amidst fierce competition with Google. The discussion also touches upon innovations in productivity platforms like Notion, insights into AMD's market performance, and the current trends in the gaming industry with Xbox's strategic moves. Additionally, the hosts provide critical perspectives on AI's role in everyday technology, reflecting both excitement and frustration with its progression. Overall, the episode serves as an informative resource for listeners keen on understanding the multifaceted developments within Microsoft's ecosystem and the broader tech industry.

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Note: Timestamp links are indicative and refer to the positions within the transcript provided.

Transcript

[Leo Laporte]

Hey, it's time for Windows Weekly Halloween edition. Paul Theratz here, Richard Campbell. We'll Talk about Windows 1124H2, the preview update arc the browser is saying bye bye and people are saying woohoo. Plus Microsoft and Google duke it out over cloud licensing. Plus Microsoft's quarterly results. They had a pretty good quarter. All coming up next on a pretty good show, Windows Weekly. Podcasts you love from people you trust.

[Paul Thurrott]

This is twit.

[Leo Laporte]

This is Windows Weekly with Paul Thurad and Richard Campbell. Episode 905 recorded Wednesday, October 30, 2024. Regulated goods content Happy Halloween everybody. It's time for Windows Weekly. Get together you winners and dozers. Put on your costumes and enjoy the show. Starring Ms. Oh, wait a minute, you're in the wrong spot. There we go. Paul Thurat. He is in Mexico City. He is [e-mail] wherever you are in the world. And we say hello hola to the man wearing the polo shirt dressed as a venture capitalist.

[Paul Thurrott]

I am dressed as a Celtics fan.

[Leo Laporte]

Richard Campbell. Wait, I got to show you. Richard Campbell in all his glory from.net rocks.

[Richard Campbell]

Like this shirt.

[Leo Laporte]

This is my shirt in silver lame today. Yeah, you could also use that as an emergency blanket if there should be an earthquake.

[Richard Campbell]

Getting warmer by the moment. I bet you are feeling like a foil wrapped hot dog, right?

[Leo Laporte]

Mylar isn't known to be a breathable fan.

[Richard Campbell]

Now that's. I like the weight of the shirt. It does feel good.

[Leo Laporte]

But. Yeah, well, actually it's probably. It's a metal thread. Probably right.

[Richard Campbell]

Not mine, but we were, we were outdoors in Ibiza for the whole evening. So it was, you know, comfortable.

[Paul Thurrott]

We'll see.

[Leo Laporte]

And I'm dressed as I normally do on.

[Paul Thurrott]

I will say Leo the. With the hat on backwards like that.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, is it backwards?

[Paul Thurrott]

You are actually. No, no, hold on. You. You are. Oh, I thought it was the other. The mask. This is a different hat. I'm sorry. So you like people here always wear their hats backwards. So I was like, that might be.

[Leo Laporte]

The authentic Mexican thing I've ever seen. This is the Cyclops.

[Richard Campbell]

It's a good look.

[Paul Thurrott]

I'm sorry.

[Leo Laporte]

And this actually is forwards you, right? Yeah. This is the original San Francisco 49ers helmet.

[Richard Campbell]

The leather head.

[Leo Laporte]

The leather heads. That's right. That's right. Welcome everybody. Paul, I'm waiting till you get back. I am going to. I've packaged up the Snapdragon DEV kit just for you.

[Paul Thurrott]

Thank you, sir.

[Leo Laporte]

It's ready to go. And I even threw in The HDMI to USB dongle. So you get the full.

[Paul Thurrott]

You are the largess that I feel. Right. It's just. I thank. Well, I mean, thank you, but thank you.

[Leo Laporte]

Actually, you know, the same setup is now going into a raspberry PI, and as far as I could tell, it really is pretty much as performance, so.

[Paul Thurrott]

Wow.

[Richard Campbell]

Nice. Wow. My Snapdragon is here because there were many packages waiting for me after three.

[Leo Laporte]

Ah, you got home. Yay.

[Richard Campbell]

But I have not opened it. I've literally. I've opened. Well, I'm gonna put it to work. I got a KBM switcher and things, but it's just been. It's been a crazy week.

[Leo Laporte]

Well, good. I would love very much to know what you think of it. And, of course, Paul will have his as soon as he gets home. You're going home for Thanksgiving.

[Richard Campbell]

Paul?

[Paul Thurrott]

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you talked.

[Richard Campbell]

I already had Thanksgiving. I'm a Canadian.

[Paul Thurrott]

I am going home. Yeah, we're coming home. The week before Thanksgiving, they send us.

[Leo Laporte]

Their used gourds and turkey carts.

[Paul Thurrott]

We have to. I don't think my family could function without us there for Thanksgiving. My wife does everything, so it's like, literally.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, that'll be.

[Paul Thurrott]

You know.

[Leo Laporte]

Well, I'll make. I'll ship it so that it arrives at Thanksgiving.

[Richard Campbell]

Two years ago was the first time the younger daughter took on the Thanksgiving meal for the family, and we all went there.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, we're not quite there.

[Leo Laporte]

That's sweet.

[Paul Thurrott]

I don't think my. My daughter could handle a meal from the local Wawa, let alone Thanksgiving, you know?

[Leo Laporte]

You think my son, the professional chef.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, right.

[Leo Laporte]

With a bestselling cookbook, would be hosting Thanksgiving, but all we would get is turkey sandwiches and that. Nice.

[Paul Thurrott]

It would be turkey reimagined.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, Deconstructed.

[Richard Campbell]

Deconstructed turkey.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. This is a foam, it turns out.

[Richard Campbell]

Looks like a chicken nugget.

[Leo Laporte]

You know, I'm gonna send him a note saying, hey, you're the professional chef now. What are you doing for Thanksgiving?

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, yeah, there you go.

[Richard Campbell]

I do a pretty good deconstructed prime rib, but that's a different story.

[Paul Thurrott]

I love prime rib. Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

As long as it has horseradish, I'm cool.

[Richard Campbell]

I smoke the ribs.

[Paul Thurrott]

What is happening?

[Richard Campbell]

I spill the smell.

[Paul Thurrott]

Are you doing. What are you doing?

[Leo Laporte]

All right, let's talk windows. That's why people are here.

[Richard Campbell]

You want to work, let's work.

[Paul Thurrott]

Let's.

[Leo Laporte]

They're not here for our deconstructed pot roast. Windows 11. What you got for us. Anything. Anything.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yes, Anything to celebrate last week. Yeah, last week we were talking about week d and how 22. Well, actually I think it was 22 and 23h2 both got the. I guess it would have been 23h2 only. Sorry.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah. Because 22h2 is out.

[Paul Thurrott]

It's out of support next month. So this makes sense. But 23h2 did get the preview update predicted that we would see one for 24h2 by the end of the week. And we did. It came on Thursday and lines up exactly like that release, as expected. Right. So in the nonsense that is Windows these days, this is a little, you know, it's least consistent nonsense, I guess. I don't actually. I got to look at this. I don't see this yet.

[Richard Campbell]

So it's going to have 24H2 write for all of the platforms.

[Paul Thurrott]

There's a little bit of a problem there as well. For sure. But there's some interesting things in here. And if you get it, it's slowly rolling out, including the ability. I'm just looking to see if it's on this computer. I don't think it is. No, it is not. The ability to change what the copilot.

[Leo Laporte]

Key does, which is.

[Richard Campbell]

Popping things up.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, it's gonna be a left arrow key in my case because I hit the keyboard like Frankenstein, you know, I don't know what I'm doing. Fire. It comes up better in the typing. But when I say it, it doesn't make a noise.

[Richard Campbell]

I'll just swap it out for the icq. Uh oh. Noise. That'll be good. Uh oh.

[Paul Thurrott]

I remember.

[Leo Laporte]

That was a great noise.

[Paul Thurrott]

I also noticed on this particular computer, which is the Snapdragon base computer I have here, the widgets icon is now just the icon without any text. So I get little notifications and it animates. It just changed right now. But it doesn't give me the text. So it's just like a little square icon now instead of a rectangular one.

[Leo Laporte]

Is that normal?

[Paul Thurrott]

I've never seen it before.

[Leo Laporte]

Mine has the weather and stock price and all that, right?

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, no, mine has the weather, but it's just the number. It doesn't say on this screen. Actually, this is the same computer. Maybe it's just a resolution thing, but yeah, it's different. I don't know why. So that's my Windows experience. It's different. I don't know why.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, see, there's my little doohickey.

[Paul Thurrott]

And yeah, it looks normal.

[Leo Laporte]

It looks normal. It's got temperature Mostly sunny. Pops up news stories about people I don't care about.

[Paul Thurrott]

A notification there this morning I've never seen before which said air quality severe.

[Richard Campbell]

Nice severe.

[Paul Thurrott]

It means you could bite it.

[Richard Campbell]

You know, you are in Mexico City.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, but you know. Yes, and that can be a problem here for sure. But it honestly on days where the air quality is low, you can typically see kind of a brown haze out on the horizon. But today it was beautiful and clear.

[Richard Campbell]

I don't know, might have been inside an oven.

[Paul Thurrott]

Who knows. Yeah, right. Maybe just meant in my apartment. Yeah, it's hard to say.

[Leo Laporte]

Severe.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. So anyway, that week D happened and where are we in the calendar? I should look at this because I think patch Tuesday usually week eight next.

[Richard Campbell]

Right, yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

Well week A, which usually is nothing and then yes, we have two weeks to go till patch Tuesday. We'll see. I expect 2324 H2 to line up there again, they've been doing that and aside from that, nothing major. Microsoft had a blog post that Semi explains why 24H2 is such a big update from an updating experience perspective. The last one was just a flip the switch enablement package type deal and they actually made a lot of low level changes.

[Richard Campbell]

It's an OS update, you know, talks about that very same thing.

[Paul Thurrott]

The full swap experience. Yeah, it's different. Yeah, it's the way it thinks. Used to be it's, it's, it's nostalgic.

[Richard Campbell]

Nice. The question is you're still blue screening a lot of machines because you know, this time last week we're very unhappy people.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. So look, I don't think it's a problem when there are specific issues that prevent a PC from getting the update right. Like this is the right way to handle it. I know some people would like to just update anyway. There are instances in which you can unplug a hardware peripheral and all of a sudden you're offered 24H2. But just be careful with that kind of thing. The problem is when it's being offered people are having problems and that's a whole different level of reliability issue. So yeah, there are several of those unfortunately as we discussed last week. But yeah, so but once this is on your disk, future updates will actually be a lot smaller and will install a lot faster and they will hammer the CPU less. You still have to up or reboot the computer that I think actually they might make a claim about that. Yeah, they actually say the reboot is also faster I guess which is whatever a reboot is. A reboot I think. But anyway, so they, you know, we don't get a lot of this in Windows these days. They've done some low level stuff that improves the experience. It's the type of thing you're not really going to notice too, too much, honestly, in day to day. But it's nice to see someone paying attention to that bit of it.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah. I'm just hoping this latest round of updates sort of settled a bunch of that stuff off.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. And then we got a. Well, we've had two builds. They both happened last week. Nothing major. I'm wondering if today, tomorrow we'll get some more in the Insider program. Sorry. And nothing major there, but they're changing the way that Windows Studio Effects notifies you that you can use it in the tray. So instead of going through Quick actions. Quick actions, quick settings only or in the app, some of the apps that you'll see, a little Windows Studio effect icon will appear next to the camera. They're going to do this global experience where you can, from the tray, control those effects regardless of what app you're using. So that seems smart to me.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah. Well, the thing is, now that we have finally got this big OS update, like what's next?

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep. I mean last year we were talking about this big OS update like it might be Windows 12 because there was that option.

[Richard Campbell]

And you know what, man, I really think for the most part it is.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

They just haven't, I think. What are they waiting for the Mac to have a version 12? So it happened last Mac is on.

[Paul Thurrott]

Version 15, by the way.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, 15.

[Paul Thurrott]

I suspect it's tied to AI and that if they had gone with Windows 12 with such a weak set of AI functionality, they might have gotten some bad PR from that. And I think. Are we talking about this a little bit? No, I guess we talked about last week, this notion of AI not moving from copilot, but adding these agentic hate that word experiences and that maybe the next version of Windows will add.

[Richard Campbell]

That would make sense that the next version of Windows has a front end to an LLM that then directs software behind it, Right?

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep. Yeah. And this is for later, but they're on the back end. GitHub. There's a story we'll talk about a little bit later, but GitHub, Copilot, it's been evolving. We need a term for this. It's going multi LLM or not multi LLM.

[Leo Laporte]

Multimodal. Multimodal.

[Paul Thurrott]

No, no, it's not that. You can choose the model on the back end. So obviously, maybe not obviously. Today when you get GitHub copilot, you're using whatever LLM Microsoft provides there based.

[Richard Campbell]

On Copilot, which I believe was a variant of GPT3.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, pretty.

[Paul Thurrott]

So they're going to offer different back ends. We'll talk about that later. But I see that sort of thing coming to. I'll call it Microsoft 365 Copilot. Right. This might make more sense.

[Richard Campbell]

And then we started in the AI studio. There's like 1100 models you can choose from. It's crazy.

[Paul Thurrott]

So what we need is that thing I bring up from time to time, which is the Orchestrator bit. Right. And that I think Windows is the ideal environment for an Orchestrator that can pick the right LLM for the right job. Right. Like now it's pretty much hard coded. So if there's a feature on your computer that does whatever, it's just written to whatever LLM or SLM or whatever it is that they're using. But I think in the future it's going to be more dynamic and based on the type of hardware you have. We've talked about this notion of gpu, mpu, cpu and there's a system wide top performance rating that you get there and some things are more efficient than others for certain tasks, et cetera, et cetera. So there's a whole octopus of things in my brain anyway, but that's how I see it. This is not based on any insider information. It's just sort of for this thing to become sophisticated, I think it has to make that shift. And I think when we look at GitHub, what they're doing, this might be maybe the first step toward that.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah. And again, we talked about right from the beginning that Windows should be the hub for this. I just don't know that they can beat M365 to the punch. And M365 has the graph and arguably is where people are working.

[Paul Thurrott]

There's a case if you just think about something like GitHub, it's a very specific thing. It's the perfect place to start this because it's a finite set of information.

[Richard Campbell]

With a specific kind of user.

[Paul Thurrott]

Right. So it's a great place to test. It's a small audience, relatively speaking. But this is another area where you could see GitHub or I guess it would be GitHub Copilot playing the role of Orchestrator by saying, okay, you are programming in GO or C or whatever language and you're using this framework. We know that this particular LLM is best, most optimal, whatever it is efficient for that thing. So we're going to use that for this. If you switch languages or you're a different developer and maybe going in a different direction, you might get another one. And it's neat to give someone a choice, but actually the better thing to do is just to always use the right thing for the job.

[Richard Campbell]

And that's where the orchestration comes in for that particular. Who's got the best model around that particular skillset.

[Paul Thurrott]

So this is step one. But again, it has to get. Choice is good. I mean, look, having this thing at all is good, right? Google has its own thing like this. I know other companies have things like this. OpenAI is expanding into this, of course, but for developers in many ways, or for anyone really. And that's the point. I mean, ultimately you want, whatever it is, the platform to orchestrate you to having the best experience. Right. And you don't have to think about it.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, we always trying to figure out who's selling shovels in the gold rush, but near as I can tell, they're trying to own the shovel marketplace.

[Paul Thurrott]

That's right. Yep. So anyway, we're getting ahead of ourselves there, but yeah, so Windows, not too much going on specifically this week other than 24H2 did get that preview update. 23 and 24H2 appear to be, you know, lined up again. So we'll see what happens on patch Tuesday, but that's about it.

[Richard Campbell]

Cool.

[Leo Laporte]

Well, that's great. Thank you everybody for joining us. For how long?

[Richard Campbell]

Hours.

[Paul Thurrott]

Last week was a slide, but we nailed it.

[Richard Campbell]

And I am Chris 17. We're not right.

[Paul Thurrott]

We're not there yet.

[Leo Laporte]

I think just in the interest of moving things along, I will do an ad here because maybe it's a little soon, but normally I would wait, but we have so many wonderful advertisers who are just dying to give us money that I think we should do it. I might want to take this hat off before.

[Richard Campbell]

I don't know. It makes me smile every time, though.

[Paul Thurrott]

Leo, is it? Waldo laporte?

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah. Where's. I guess we just, you know, we should say before we do anything, happy Halloween.

[Richard Campbell]

Happy Halloween.

[Paul Thurrott]

Or Day of the Dead, if that's.

[Leo Laporte]

Your thing or whatever you notice. Paul I worthy. So I have ordered more of my fabulous shirts from Abrazos Design in San Miguel de Allende. Yes, I am wearing a lovely.

[Paul Thurrott]

You would. You would fit in here, I have to say.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, people wear these kinds of shirts.

[Paul Thurrott]

Oh, my God.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, I. I bought six more because I love Them all.

[Paul Thurrott]

Day of the Dead or just different designs?

[Leo Laporte]

No, all kinds. Although there are a few Day of the Deads. They like sugar skulls for some reason, but.

[Paul Thurrott]

Well, yes, if you can turn anything into Adulse, as they call it here, they will.

[Leo Laporte]

Why not, right?

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, go for it. So. Yeah, but I just love these. And I decided that, you know, I used to wear. I used to get a wear blazer and dress shirt for these shows and I just think I'm home, I'm not wearing pants.

[Paul Thurrott]

I roll out of bed and I land in front of the camera and what happens?

[Leo Laporte]

I think it's also. I like the color. I want to wear something kind of colorful.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

Because the bag.

[Paul Thurrott]

Here's what bugs me, Leo. I've been doing this show from home for whatever amount of time. Seventeen years, something like that. Yeah. You've been home for like two seconds. You already have this gorgeous set.

[Leo Laporte]

I know. I love it. I have good people. That's why I have.

[Paul Thurrott]

No, it's. I have a team. Crap picture behind me.

[Leo Laporte]

Anthony, you know Benito and Kevin King, our producer and technical director.

[Paul Thurrott]

Look at this thing.

[Leo Laporte]

Ashley, that's beautiful. Isn't that great?

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

Glowing. It's.

[Richard Campbell]

The logo's awesome.

[Leo Laporte]

That was Anthony Nielsen's idea and then Burke implemented it.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. Yeah, I bet there's a lot of that going on in.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

In your place.

[Leo Laporte]

Really great. Really great team. And then. And then Jammer B, who know who retired, he's moved to the Pacific Northwest. Did leave. He came into the on Sunday and you know, he was the guy who would. Was kind of our profanity filter and he left me eight of these.

[Paul Thurrott]

Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey.

[Leo Laporte]

So I'm ready. He's here in spirit if you know. Hey. Hey. Thank you. It's time to tell you about our sponsor for this segment of Windows Weekly, the great folks at 1Password. Maybe I will take this off because I should be serious. This is a serious. There we go. Serious new product from 1Password called Extended Access Management. Here's the question for you. Do your users always work on company owned devices? Do they always use IT approved apps? They're secure, right?

[Paul Thurrott]

No.

[Richard Campbell]

No.

[Leo Laporte]

You know, there's. There's something more scary than Halloween. Users with their BYODs. How do you keep your company's data safe when it's sitting on all those unmanaged apps on those unknown devices? Well, that's why we have 1Password. Thank you with the answer. Extended Access Management. 1Password. Extended Access Management helps you secure every sign in for every app. On every device because it solves the problems traditional IAM and MDM just, you know, can't touch. If you want to visualize this, your company's security as like the quadrangle of a college campus. You know, the beautiful green grass with brick paths leading from building to building. You know, ivy covered buildings. Those are, you know, the company owned devices, the IT approved apps, the managed employee identities. Everything's nice, birds are singing, it's a, it's a pleasant, wonderful place. But then, then there are the shortcuts worn through the grass that are, you know, the actual paths. People use the straightest line from building A to building B. Those are the unmanaged devices, the shadow IT apps, the non employee identities. Like contractors on your networks. Most security tools know about the brick paths. They only work on the brick paths. That's, you know, that's their bread and butter. Unfortunately, as you well know, the security problems that you face often take place on those little dirt paths, the shortcuts. That's where 1Password Extended Access Management really works. It's the first security solution that takes all those unmanaged devices and apps and identities and brings them under your control. It ensures that every user credential is strong and protected, every device is known and healthy and every app is visible. It's security for the way we really work. We truthfully work today. Generally available now to companies with Okta and Microsoft. Entra in beta for Google Workspace customers. They're moving fast with a great product. Check it out. 1Password.com Windows Weekly that's the number one. See go this way. P A S S w o r d1Password.com Windows Weekly we thank them so much for their support of Windows Weekly. We thank you for your support by using that address so they know you saw it here. 1Password.com Windows Weekly thank you for letting me interrupt the progress of this slow moving train.

[Paul Thurrott]

That would be a good movie to try to stop this train like that. Pennsylvania Chris. Not Chris Pratt.

[Richard Campbell]

No.

[Leo Laporte]

We know what he's going to stop this train. This train's bound to glory. This train.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, There you go.

[Leo Laporte]

Okay, let's talk about Microsoft 365, shall we?

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. I'm curious what Richard knows about this. So Microsoft, having thoroughly overhauled teams and then consolidated the consumer and commercial clients, has proactively told people they're going to change the UI again, not till next year. Just to give people enough time to freak out and lose their minds.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, and what's that? Get a shouting out now while nothing's Happened.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

Does he?

[Paul Thurrott]

Won't be. I don't use teams as much as I used to. So when I was still part of BWW media, we used teams every single day. That was how we communicated. And now that I'm not, now that I'm on my own, I have no one to talk to, so I don't need it. But the way I recall it is there's obviously chats and then there are also teams and they're consolidating teams and what's called channels, which to me are.

[Richard Campbell]

Kind of the same thing.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, our teams. But maybe they're renamed. It's sort of a rebranding and putting it under chat. So here's the couple of things I think that are odd about this and then you can, you know more about this. You can have something intelligent to say about it. Which is the thing, the thing I first said, which is I think it's interesting and purposeful. They're talking about this now just to kind of get people like, you know, because people in this space tend to lose their minds over stuff. You'll think about the reaction to the new Outlook for as a great example or the reaction of teams all the time as a great example.

[Richard Campbell]

But look at them.

[Paul Thurrott]

Awful. Yeah, well, yeah, but the other half is that Teams is the center of an antitrust issue in the EU where Microsoft tried to fix this problem by literally removing teams from Microsoft360, make it a separate install.

[Richard Campbell]

All the MVPs got to do that this year.

[Paul Thurrott]

Not good enough.

[Richard Campbell]

And they didn't give any direction either.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, right. Well, yes, the argument I think Microsoft would make and certainly the one I would make against the Slack Now SalesforceNow EU complaint about this is that yes, absolutely, this thing started as a Slack alike chat based productivity tool. Yes. However, if you look at this tool today and compare it to Slack today, which looks like something someone slapped at the wall and then picked up the bits that fell down and turned it into a product. They're completely different. I mean they're not completely different. They're at a very high level.

[Richard Campbell]

They're still collaboration tools, right?

[Paul Thurrott]

They are. But Teams is a much more sophisticated platform than Slack in my opinion. And I think that this actually makes it look and seem a little bit more like Slack. And I'm not sure this is the right direction to go in right now.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, I know how you feel in there. I mean the bigger thing is knowing where to look for stuff. Right. And they created all these different categories and now you're back to Chasing around, where's my stuff? And the one thing they have not been able to solve is a search that simply works across everything. I don't know why, but they just can't seem to crack the search problem. So the fact that Teeper is in on that conversation is kind of. It does look like the boss said, guys, fix this. Consolidate it.

[Paul Thurrott]

Okay?

[Richard Campbell]

And they just kind of do.

[Paul Thurrott]

I wonder, do you think they're waiting on AI to solve the search problem? Although not everyone's going to pay for that.

[Richard Campbell]

I don't know. Yeah. You know, Microsoft's battled search from day one. I've never found a good search solution.

[Paul Thurrott]

Right.

[Richard Campbell]

You know, the one reaction I have when I, when I put a search string into Outlook and I don't get response back is not that the email doesn't exist, it's that I failed to nudge Outlook the correct way.

[Paul Thurrott]

That's right. And it's not Outlook, it's everything I did. This happens to be in OneDrive. I can't tell you how many times I've searched in the file system for something that should be there with placeholders. Whatever is there, can't find it. Go up to the website, search there and find it. Yeah, guys, come on, you know, come on. So Steve Jobs is rolling in his grave here. Let's get it fixed. This.

[Richard Campbell]

But I think at the base of this, the whole thing I've looked at just like, are you guys. Just because you can't fix search, is that really what this is about?

[Paul Thurrott]

So I feel like teams is on track to become like the Xbox Dashboard, meaning every month or every whatever milestone, they're just going to change the UI and be like, is this okay? Yeah, you know, is this better?

[Richard Campbell]

Well, you know, that's how you know your feature complete when you're down to. I can add a bad feature now because I get two versions out of it. One when I put it in, one.

[Paul Thurrott]

When I take it out. Right.

[Richard Campbell]

Well, the good news is let's call it mature.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. So this isn't rolling out till next year. It won't fully roll out until mid 2024.

[Richard Campbell]

And that's also where I thought maybe this was a we're fighting the boss thing here. The boss told us to do it. So we're telegraphing it now so that you all.

[Paul Thurrott]

But now they can get complaints and say, well, you know, and history is any guide. And I feel like it is. It will be later than that. Right? I mean, we'll. We'll see. But it may be something that happens.

[Richard Campbell]

Everything Takes longer. And maybe there's a better idea out there. Like without a doubt, they kicked off conversation. It does hint. We don't know what to do. So yell at us. Maybe we'll glean a better idea from it.

[Paul Thurrott]

Speaking of Steve Jobs rolling in his grave, Apple has a fun little feature, cross platform feature called Handoff, where Apple kind of. I don't want to give him too much credit here, but give him credit.

[Leo Laporte]

Come on.

[Paul Thurrott]

Arguably have in some ways led the way to this kind of. It's not that we don't have file systems, but this notion of we're going to work with documents and not think about where they are kind of mentality. Right. Which is hard for people like me and I think most people listening or watching this to kind of wrap their heads around because we have very specific ideas about that and whatever. But anyway, they allow you to within the Apple ecosystem if the apps support it. And of course, Apples, do you work on a document, on an iPad or a phone or whatever. IPhone. And then you can kind of pick up where you left off on a different device, like on a Mac or whatever. So Microsoft just added this capability to its core office apps, Word, Excel and PowerPoint on iPhone, iPad and Mac. Right. And so now you can use the Microsoft tool you may want to use or maybe your workplace enforces you to use and it will provide that same functionality. It'd be neat if we had something like that and Windows. Anyway, there you go. I wonder if there's a world in which Microsoft could build on Handoff and just have that kind of work between Windows and an iPhone. Maybe.

[Richard Campbell]

I'll tell you, it works with OneNote, but it doesn't work with notion or not notion.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. Oh, that's interesting.

[Leo Laporte]

You forgot the name of Loop already.

[Richard Campbell]

Well, I got you. Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

I'll just say it again. Richard, what is this Loop you speak of?

[Richard Campbell]

I've learned now because often, especially when I'm doing risky research, I'm working from the phone because I'm in the shop and I'm looking at a few different whiskeys and things. If I don't leave that phone open, when I open it on my PC, it just appear.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yes, yes.

[Richard Campbell]

And vice versa.

[Paul Thurrott]

It's not just Loop, by the way, but you have. By the way, you just reminded me OneNote is now 20, probably 22 years old. Ish.

[Richard Campbell]

And you know, it has that thing nailed.

[Paul Thurrott]

And it's always. But it's always been documentless. That was kind of the point. Like at some point they allowed you to actually Access the file and if you wanted to, you could back it up or move it around. But OneNote was designed from the beginning not to have documents. Like you're not saving. You're not control s ing anything. It just kind of works. So, I mean, we should be. They did nothing with it, but actually they did have that quite a while ago.

[Richard Campbell]

So that's my favorite. One note was when the girls figured out that I used a shopping list. And that was on the. And as soon as they saw things getting checked off because they knew her in the grocery store, the list grew.

[Leo Laporte]

That's cute. That's pretty smart.

[Paul Thurrott]

In the old days, kids were lazy. They would have to go with you to the store and they would secretly throw stuffing. You wouldn't notice till checkout time or not at all. You know, that's funny.

[Richard Campbell]

But they found that if they put it at the top of the list. I don't get it. You need to put it at the bottom of the list.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, that's so funny.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's good. Richard mentioned Notion. So Notion has, you know, Notion, the app, which is also a platform. And I was talking, let's be clear.

[Richard Campbell]

Desperate to be a platform.

[Paul Thurrott]

Well, right. So the reason I said that is they. You're starting to get the sense that Notion has some componentization, something. Something like Loop does. Right. It's not going to be as sophisticated, not going to be as big of a platform. But they bought Cron, remember, and turned it into their calendar app. And I forgot the name of it now, but they bought a third party kind of privacy focused email solution and they're turning that into Notion Mail. And so you see the start of this kind of light. Google Workspace, slash, Microsoft 365. I don't want to call it replacement exactly, but it's kind of getting there.

[Richard Campbell]

Skiff. It was.

[Leo Laporte]

Can't say I'm crazy about this.

[Paul Thurrott]

So that's okay.

[Leo Laporte]

What are you thinking?

[Paul Thurrott]

We used to make fun of.

[Leo Laporte]

We used to say that no program is done until it's at least on Linux, until it's an email client. But that was a joke.

[Paul Thurrott]

Well, I mean, they're separate clients. Honestly, the surprise here is that they didn't just integrate the stuff directly into the main app. Right.

[Leo Laporte]

Do they want to be like Zoho Office or Google Office?

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, I think so. I think Google Docs or whatever you want to call that, I think is the goal. The appeal of Notion is there's a lot of versatility there that you really. There's things you can't do or can't do easily in something like Google Docs and you know, keep is kind of weird. And so you have this thing that kind of acts like a. It's obviously to take notes, but it's also a collaboration tool. It's also honestly a document creation tool. There's going to have to come a day where they charge everyone for this. It boggles my mind this far into this that they've never once come to me and said, hey Paul, seems like you use this a lot, you should be paying for it. That's fair. By the way, they never have.

[Richard Campbell]

I wonder if.

[Paul Thurrott]

And without a doubt, yeah. So some form of, I don't know, storage. I think they need a chat based collaboration thing. I can't believe I just said that out loud. But some simple something, something that like Microsoft Teams is big and powerful, but it's also this very standard kind of Microsoft solution. Of course it is. Slack is a disaster of a. I can't stand Slack. Something that looks like Notion, which I think has a nice kind of clean, modern, minimalist UI but provides that functionality and you combine it with these things. That is.

[Richard Campbell]

Well, Platform Vacation is a VC trope. Right. So these folks have taken a bunch of money and they've been trying to build their product and get it to a place and sooner or later they're going to get pressure on these things.

[Paul Thurrott]

Things and yes, right, yes, absolutely.

[Richard Campbell]

Acquiring companies is a great way to show value for the money that's been invested. It's an easy technique. It's hard to spend $20 million. Well, it's easy to buy something for $20 million and then consider it worth million dollars.

[Paul Thurrott]

But the next step, I think, which is also difficult, is replicating what's special about Notion in these other apps and then also getting the kind of buy in from users, customers to actually use these things. Right. The trick for me is I don't understand using another app to do the thing I'm already doing.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah. Why are you bumping me out of the space I was already in?

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. And we'll see. I mean, I don't know. It's interesting.

[Richard Campbell]

I guess the world doesn't need more platforms, but give it your shot.

[Paul Thurrott]

Well, we're going to talk a little bit about ARC later. For example, the browser company. There is a place in this world, in our space for people coming in from the outside, looking at something and saying, you know, this thing is good, but it could be simpler. You know, it could be less expensive, maybe it could be less locked into your little ecosystem or your gigantic eco, you know, whatever the thing is that they're trying to provide value with. Right.

[Richard Campbell]

It also goes to me. They've acquired both these products. It is hard to integrate an external product into your existing products. So they may be. This may be the interim phase.

[Paul Thurrott]

Oh, okay, Interesting.

[Richard Campbell]

While they work on how do we.

[Paul Thurrott]

Unify these things, would they turn it into. What's it called? Netscape Communicator. Right. Where it's like all the things in one thing. Which is actually what Phil Valdi has done too, by the way. I mean, I don't know if that's.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, it's not that simple. We built on different stacks. Like actually integrating effectively is hard. It'll take a while.

[Paul Thurrott]

This might be an age or a mentality thing too, but if you've ever tried any third party Microsoft Office alternatives, you've seen that some of them are just one app. You know, you don't get individual apps like, I want to run the word processor, I don't care about the other apps. So when the whole thing comes up, I'm always like, ugh. Like I immediately don't like that. And there's a possibility that notion would become a little too top heavy if they decided to, you know, jam it all together. I don't know what that is.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, I don't know the answer to that. I think once you get sovereign app status, you own some screen space. The more things you put in, the more time you have that screen space.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, that's what Netscape. Netscape, geez. Can't get off Netscape. It's what Netflix is trying to do with games.

[Richard Campbell]

Yep.

[Paul Thurrott]

You know, you see this all over the place. We could see that this is a form of insured ification in a way.

[Richard Campbell]

I guess, in a way, but it's.

[Leo Laporte]

In the old days of computing, you saw this. What was the Lotus product where they wanted to.

[Richard Campbell]

Symphony.

[Leo Laporte]

Symphony. And it was a flop. Right. But the idea was it wasn't 1.

[Paul Thurrott]

2, 3 plus other things. It was this brand new object and.

[Leo Laporte]

It was all these whatever.

[Paul Thurrott]

Rel. What was it called? I can't remember the name of it. Relative data, whatever. Some kind of special new database. The Steve Jobs relational, I guess. Relational database. Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

But I could think over and over again of programs that tried to bundle all of this into functionality, into one. But I wonder if there always is a flop. Except for Emacs.

[Paul Thurrott]

Emacs. I mean, you could argue Microsoft Office went this route right before it was a true suite. First it was a Bundle, and then it became this kind of integrated suite.

[Leo Laporte]

But they're still discrete apps, aren't they? I mean, yes, people still understand. I'm in Word now. I'm in Excel now.

[Paul Thurrott]

Which was the 95 problem when you could edit a spreadsheet inside of a Word document and the Excel toolbar would appear. And it was like, what is happening to this Frankenstein model?

[Leo Laporte]

I confess I still am a little nostalgic for Microsoft Works.

[Paul Thurrott]

There you go.

[Leo Laporte]

I thought that was, you know, that was.

[Paul Thurrott]

You know what the problem with Microsoft Works was, right?

[Leo Laporte]

What?

[Paul Thurrott]

Well, it's too cheap, one thing, and people love it. But it was not compatible. The document formats weren't compatible.

[Richard Campbell]

It was rtf.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, yeah. It didn't use Doc. It was.

[Leo Laporte]

That's why I liked it. It was rtf.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

There's a place in this world for It Works. Well, I guess that's what Google Docs is. Right.

[Leo Laporte]

And Apple, you know, Apple took what was Claris Works, which is the same as Microsoft Works, split it up into the iWorks suite, which is more like Office, where it's discrete apps that.

[Paul Thurrott]

And those apps are pretty good as if.

[Leo Laporte]

And they're free with all max. Right. They come with your laptop, your iPad, and your Mac. And so.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. And they're painting. Screw you guys. I don't care.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, they're good enough.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. I think they are good enough for most people, actually.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah. I think if there's anything wrong with them is they're too pretty. People don't take them seriously. Because that's right.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

I wonder if the other side of this for Notion is that as they were heading down, starting to test, will people pay for this? And they weren't getting results, it's like, well, what if we added more to it now? Would you buy?

[Paul Thurrott]

I had said they've never tried to charge me. There was one instance where I was adding header images to the notes, and at some point they said, we don't store this for free. You have to pay for that. And I was like, I just won't do that anymore. So there needs to be a better monetization plan than. Paul likes images in his notes.

[Leo Laporte]

I do pay for notion. I don't know why I pay for notion. I use it less than you do.

[Paul Thurrott]

Do you have any idea?

[Leo Laporte]

Huh?

[Paul Thurrott]

How much is it? Like, what's.

[Leo Laporte]

I don't even. I don't. It's like. It's not much. It's like $40 a year or something. It's not. It's not a horrible. But I Think they now have tears?

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, I'm sure.

[Leo Laporte]

So that may cause tears, because that may be a lot more expensive. I don't know. But I'll look, I'll look. I'll see how much I pay. Isn't that funny?

[Richard Campbell]

I have receipt per month.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah. I can't remember. I started when Nosha first came out. I like you, Paul. I was really bullish on it, and I put a lot of stuff. I've been looking for an Evernote replacement for so long.

[Richard Campbell]

Forever.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep. By the way, that may end up being Evernote at some point. We'll see if they ever get it right. But I like. So you soured on ocean. Is that what you're saying? Like, you don't like it?

[Leo Laporte]

No, I haven't actively soured. I just don't use it that much anymore. Do you remember when we did the Alaska cruise, I had a whole Notion page I shared with you, and it was a great way to put travel plans together. And I still do that when we go on a trip, all the travel plans, because then you could share it with everybody. And it's. It could be a web page. It could be a standalone webpage, which people. With a link.

[Paul Thurrott]

I don't know if Notion. If Notion was the start of this, if they formalized it, if they literally invented it, but there's a thing. And you see a lot in Notion Notes where. And you see. You see this in email newsletters now, where there's a lot of emoticons or emojis or whatever, starting a paragraph, maybe, or within a header. And it's kind of become like a style. And it's. To me, it's. To me, it's Notion influenced. But maybe I'm.

[Leo Laporte]

Well, it's funny because Notion doesn't have an easy way to embed graphics.

[Paul Thurrott]

Right, Right. They don't have an easy way, actually, to do anything. That's part of the problem.

[Leo Laporte]

But they do have. It's. You know, they kind of prefer you have these header graphics.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, that's the thing.

[Leo Laporte]

I was talking about icons and all that. And, yeah, it's become a style. Loupe does that too. Right.

[Paul Thurrott]

Of course.

[Richard Campbell]

But it's also a nuisance to.

[Paul Thurrott]

But Loop is also the last in a list of these things. Right. I mean, Loop didn't INV any of this. When you see Loop, you're like, oh, my God, it looks exactly like Notion. You gotta be kidding me.

[Leo Laporte]

We had an advertiser. I wish they were back, because they were really good. Called Coda. Do you ever play with that same idea. There's a guy in our YouTube chat who says he actually prefers it to both Loop and Notion.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, but you always find people who this.

[Richard Campbell]

You gotta have a blur.

[Paul Thurrott]

Obsidian is one of them. There's people who say, well, what I want is Notion, but I want it to be well, offline, by the way, is a valid complaint. I want to have control over that file, maybe, and have it in my file system. Maybe I want to sync it through OneDrive or whatever. So, yeah, there's. There are definitely alternatives, but, you know, Notion is kind of an Apple like thing. It's like, look, we do our own thing. It works, People seem to like it and, you know, yeah, we know this competition, but who cares?

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah. I don't know, they just had their big summit or whatever and the CEO talked. I don't know if you noticed this. When I launched Notion today, they said splash page features. They did AI early. And I don't know anybody who's crazy about the idea of AI embedded in Notion. I don't know, I just.

[Paul Thurrott]

No, I don't like it. And everywhere I see it, as is so often the case with me and AI, I always trigger it by mistake. So in Notion, you can see in the notes I've written Microsoft 365 earnings. It went. That's where it wants. Do you want to use AI? Is that what you wanted? Oh, it's like, no. You know, this is a common character in the English language. Idiots. Maybe you could have used something, you know, unique.

[Richard Campbell]

This is not your control key.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, so that came up for me five times this morning. Right. You know, it's like, no, I still don't want Ocean, whatever they're calling their AI.

[Leo Laporte]

This is Face trying to jam too much functionality.

[Paul Thurrott]

Control J is a shortcut too. So if you look in the bottom corner of the notes, you can see the little cartoony, by the way, Mac, the original Mac. Well, one of the early Mac logo like faces. Remember they had the two sides with the two, you know, the eyes. Looks. Yeah, the Picasso. It looks like a simplified version of that logo. It's kind of funny. Anyhow.

[Leo Laporte]

Okay, but where you, you know, and we should say we use this.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, I like. I mean, Notion is sticky. That's the. For me, yeah. Switching stuff is hard. I was on OneDrive, OneNote for. From the date the year before it came out publicly until, I don't know, two, three years ago. And it's hard to move past something that you have that much data in that you use for so long it's hard. And now I get to this, and. I don't know, you'd have to be pretty damn good to make me leave Notion at this point.

[Leo Laporte]

Well, Richard, you want to make a case for us to use Loop instead of Notion?

[Paul Thurrott]

Nope. Well, yeah. No. If you like to manually make sure that something is synced, then is that the problem is reliability. It's.

[Leo Laporte]

Reliability is fundamental in this.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah. As soon as you're not sure if your data survived, you're not happy anymore.

[Leo Laporte]

Not worth using.

[Richard Campbell]

Every time. Every time the browser Chromium updates, it flashes around, like, just to remind you, it's an electron app.

[Paul Thurrott]

The one thing I don't use, Loop.

[Richard Campbell]

It'S not a confidence builder.

[Paul Thurrott]

Nobody does. But one thing that Loop has that I think could help it, and I always thought could help it, and maybe it will be successful one day, is the keyboard shortcuts that everybody knows from Microsoft Word all work the same. So if you're used to making headings in that the Control, what is the control? Alt. Whatever number that works in Loop. Right. That's not how you do that in Notion. You have to learn a new way to do things in Notion. So Notion supports like markdown style. Hash. Hash, or you literally do the slash H, whatever. It's different. You can get used to it. You can get used to anything. You get used to getting punched in the face every day. I guess you don't want to, but you don't want to. But then that's how I approach Microsoft Teams. So, you know, it's just.

[Richard Campbell]

No, I think you were thinking teams.

[Paul Thurrott]

Got pretty good, actually. So, anyway, we'll see. I mean, for me, Notion is this thing. I use it for one thing. But I see these things. I see these acquisitions, I see them coming up with new products, and, you know, I'll keep my own. It's like Proton is like this. Like, this is. You know, this is interesting.

[Richard Campbell]

They're trying.

[Paul Thurrott]

Okay. That was a lot of time on so Pretty. The announcement of an app that will not be available anytime soon is the short version of that story.

[Leo Laporte]

This is the Notion mail.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, the Notion mail. It's like, here, look how pretty it might be someday.

[Leo Laporte]

Might be someday.

[Richard Campbell]

They acquired Skiff, which was the Skiff thing.

[Paul Thurrott]

Skiff had a different kind of approach to things. They were actually more like Proton. Right. They were security and privacy focused. So Notion is not. Not that they're security and privacy, you know, averse or anything like that, but that's certainly not their. That's not their focus. Right. Their focus is on making productivity simple is how I sort of see it, but we'll see. Okay, so we talked about GitHub Copilot earlier. I just make sure that was clear. Copilot or GitHub Copilot today uses Microsoft's whatever the back end, Rich. It's ChatGPT3, you say? Basically, yeah. What they.

[Richard Campbell]

That's what it was originally and I don't know that they've moved before. I think it's one of the three plus variants.

[Paul Thurrott]

Okay. And you know, again, for. For the finite data set that is this thing. This is, you know, probably fine. Right. And is probably one of the more accurate AIs, if you will, in the sense that it's working off this limited data set. It's good. It seems like this is a good way to start, I don't know, a couple weeks ago, three weeks ago, whenever it was, we were talking about Satya Nadella in his letter to share. Oh no, that was something earlier than that. No, it was earlier than that. Sorry. It was tied to the copilot wave two announcement was saying that these LLMs have become commodities. A fascinating thing to say about the company you've invested $13 billion in. But you know, the inference here being that we're going to work with other LLMs as well. Of course, they've got their own thing happening in house now as well. Right. So they've opened GitHub Copilot up to multiple third party LLMs or are opening. I'm not sure if it's actually happened yet, but they announced that at their own developer show. So anthropic cloud 3.5 sonnet, Google Gemini 1.5 Pro and then OpenAI specifically. Is it 01? Is that how we saying it in. Oh no, the. This new one, this little. The smaller one, I think it's just 01. I think is how we would say that this O1 preview, O1 mini. There might be all of them. I don't remember. But that's interesting. And so like we said earlier, I. Yeah, I mean it's good to give people that choice. I guess better would be maybe you just do the right thing and you're paying for Copilot.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, always the question is like what does the LLM bring to the table here?

[Paul Thurrott]

Right. And how would you decide? I mean, I mean, is it going to be a goofy little wizard? It looks like you're trying to code in C. You might want to try Sonnet. Okay, thanks. Maybe I will. Here's an idea. Why don't you Just do that for me. And I think that's, like I said, I think that's where it goes earlier or later. I look at this as the first step toward that. And I look at this as a hint at what they might do with Microsoft 365 Copilot specifically. And we'll see, we'll see how these things evolve. But really, I have to say I did not quite expect this.

[Richard Campbell]

No. It almost seems like political maneuvering because certainly there's been pressure on Microsoft to show that they're not too embed with OpenAI.

[Leo Laporte]

Did you see Saty this morning in the Google earnings call say that? Well, I can't remember what the number was. Something like 30% of all our coding is done by AI first.

[Paul Thurrott]

Oh, Sundar Pichai said this, not Satya.

[Leo Laporte]

Sundar.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I didn't see that. I.

[Leo Laporte]

Kind of a shock. But it certainly validates the copilot, the gig copilot model.

[Paul Thurrott]

I'm not sure that's. I don't like that he said that. And there's a couple of reasons.

[Richard Campbell]

A weird thing to say because there's still people looking at it like I'd be annoyed as a developer if you said that about my work.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep.

[Richard Campbell]

I mean I've certainly been benchmarking this. Not out of teams using GitHub, Copilot and 20 to 30% productivity gains is the number these days.

[Leo Laporte]

Right.

[Richard Campbell]

And that's more code checked in with less remediation.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep.

[Richard Campbell]

Right. When they first start using it, they do a lot of back and forth.

[Paul Thurrott]

But they get better. The problem for Google, I think is that, and this is a perception thing, I'm not saying this is the reality, but they've gotten off on a bad foot with AI somehow which is kind of astonishing because they were there longer than anybody really.

[Richard Campbell]

And I think they were the threat from the beginning. Right. Google Brain was whatever what OpenAI was made.

[Paul Thurrott]

Right. Exactly. The models that we have now are just very much based on the work they did first for sure. They basically invented this, if you will. But they've been face raking ever since. And when you come out and say, yeah, a quarter of the new code Google is generated by AI, you're like, oh, that's why it stinks so bad, you know? No, I think it's the automatic response, isn't it like I, I don't know that I would have said this.

[Richard Campbell]

No.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

And again, I think you're right. Internally, politically it was a bad thing to say. Externally, it's a bad thing to say.

[Paul Thurrott]

Like, what do you think?

[Richard Campbell]

It was a curious Send that boy to CEOs.

[Paul Thurrott]

I saw it in the headline. I'm like, I don't. I don't like it.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, that seemed unwise.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, I think so.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

But you. Okay, so Apple Intelligence finally arrived this week, changed the world. So we're living in an Apple world now. Everything's different. What am I talking about? So I don't know if you even noticed it happened, but, you know, iOS, iPad, iOS 18.1, macros, sequoia 15.1, have the. I think they're. I don't know if they're calling it this. I'm calling it this. The first wave of Apple Intelligence features. It's all the stuff we all know and kind of don't care about too, too much. Writing tools like the ability to summarize long documents. Useful for sure writing help which most people could use for sure in all those places. Well, in every place, really. But let's say in things like messages, mail, et cetera, in a web form, whatever, it might be. So good. This gets a lot more interesting in 18.2, which is happening in December, and Apple has been very explicit about at least four waves of this before the middle of next year. So we're going to be dealing with this for quite a while. But the one new bit of information that came out of their announcements this past week is that the eu, which was, I'm going to call it region non grata, and because of all their antitrust stuff, now they're saying they are going to bring it to the EU in the spring, which, by the way, will be when it's ready. So.

[Richard Campbell]

Well, there's that, but it's also like, does it pass the rules?

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, you know, they've obviously been actively talking to eu, so I think for them to say that it suggests maybe they found that answer. I don't know. I don't know.

[Richard Campbell]

You know, I. You can't have driver's license until you've had a few accidents. So I don't know how you write AI legislation having not actually used the product.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, we don't want that first accident to be Skynet and the Terminator robot. But I. But, yeah, I know. I mean, yeah, but I fall into that trap.

[Richard Campbell]

Don't give them the levers of power.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, yeah, we'll see. I don't know. So, okay, so Apple Intelligence, whatever. I actually think they're going to get this right. I think overall it's fine. These, these are good, solid improvements, whatever who cares?

[Richard Campbell]

But I don't know if they are. I hope they do. I just reminded once again that they had to jump, that this not.

[Paul Thurrott]

I should be clear when I say that, I mean the entire range of this stuff. Not the stuff that just came out Monday or Tuesday. It's the things they'll be doing in point 2, 3, 4 over some period of time. You can see the people who are testing 18.2, which I am doing, by the way, on my iPhone. Although I don't use this stuff like most people. I think it's getting more interesting. So this will be true over the course of it, I think I like the way Siri lights up. That's a thing. So that's fun.

[Leo Laporte]

She's just as dumb as she ever was.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But now it could be like a dumb blonde guy. So, you know, Siri can be all kinds of things.

[Leo Laporte]

First time it happened. Because what happens is. Let me see if I can show it.

[Paul Thurrott]

I'm surprised I didn't set off every device in this apartment when I just said that word, by the way. Usually.

[Leo Laporte]

But if you say the word seriously, it will all.

[Paul Thurrott]

And I say it all the time.

[Leo Laporte]

So the first I'm going to press the button.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. See? Yeah. Do the little animation there. It's nice.

[Leo Laporte]

And the first time it happened, I thought I was drunk.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

Because I didn't know that that was good.

[Paul Thurrott]

Did I just take lsd? Is this like.

[Leo Laporte]

What the heck? Why is that my screen just throbbing throbs? I think it's nice.

[Paul Thurrott]

This is. It's pretty. It's Birdie.

[Leo Laporte]

She says, by the way, I didn't get that. Could you try again?

[Paul Thurrott]

She says that a lot.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

You don't have to be mean, Paul.

[Leo Laporte]

I didn't get that. Could you try again? Thank you very much.

[Paul Thurrott]

I don't like you.

[Leo Laporte]

I think we're in a loop here, Siri.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep.

[Leo Laporte]

Let's see what she says.

[Paul Thurrott]

I'll be sitting here in the morning and I talk to the news as one would when I'm reading it on my device. And then the little speaker next to me says, okay, okay. Here's a morning. Here's a morning playlist to start off your day. And I don't know. I have no idea where that came from. I don't know what possesses things.

[Leo Laporte]

This is really our true nightmare about AI is not right. That it's going to take. Bomb the world and take. It's that it's going to be annoying as hell.

[Paul Thurrott]

This happens in Mexico as much as it happens out in the world, at home. Right? We've all experienced this. You're out. It doesn't matter where you are. You could be walking through an airport. You could be walking on a city street. There's some guy coming down the street, and you can see he's just talking to the air. He's like. And even though we intellectually understand that people have earbuds now and this is a thing, there's still that moment where you're like, is he a crazy person?

[Richard Campbell]

No. You never know for sure. Is it multiple personality disorder or is it Bluetooth? It's one of the other.

[Paul Thurrott]

When we got lunch today, I had this experience. This happens almost every day when I'm outside. So I still go through this all the time. But now we have these things that are talking to us when we don't want them to. And now we are the crazy people, you know? Because, like, how insane is it to talk to this thing and say, stop? I don't. I don't want the. Stop it.

[Leo Laporte]

Stop.

[Richard Campbell]

Lisa, I've noticed it talks more when it's wrong, right? Yes. When I tell home assistant what I wanted to do, and it's just doing it. It says almost nothing. The moment it doesn't know what to do, it goes on and on and on.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yes.

[Richard Campbell]

Right.

[Paul Thurrott]

Oh, dear God.

[Richard Campbell]

This is a grade four series.

[Leo Laporte]

Here's what I found on the website.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

Here, I got something for you.

[Richard Campbell]

It's like, listen, if. Okay, you did it wrong, just stop.

[Paul Thurrott]

Because with Google, I'll say, I'll walk up to the smart display. It'll be like a picture of me with, like, a girlfriend from the 1980s. And I'll be like, google, do not show this photo. And it goes. Okay, do you want us to stop showing this photo on the smart display? Yes. Okay, we will stop. It's like, stop talking. Just freaking do it. You know? Meanwhile, my wife's like, who are you talking to? What's going on? I'm like, would you hurry up? You know, like. Like, get rid of the picture.

[Leo Laporte]

Do you. Do you change the voice? I change the voice to make it.

[Paul Thurrott]

I changed the Siri voice for the first time.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, I make it. It's a kind of a. Yeah, I don't know what.

[Paul Thurrott]

It's not here right now. I don't.

[Leo Laporte]

Here. I did play it for you. You tell me this. I love this voice.

[Paul Thurrott]

Okay.

[Leo Laporte]

What's the weather going to be like in Petaluma today?

[Paul Thurrott]

The forecast is calling for rain today.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, it's kind of Urban, kind of hip, kind of cool.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, no, you definitely switched to hipster voice.

[Paul Thurrott]

I like voice.

[Leo Laporte]

Hipster voice. It's voice three. If people.

[Paul Thurrott]

How's your vinyl?

[Richard Campbell]

Whether it's gonna be cool today? Perfect for making pickles.

[Leo Laporte]

I wish it was. See, if it had a little personality, that would be really cool. But it does. It's just. It's just. Just like an annoying nitwit.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

And that's really a problem.

[Paul Thurrott]

I think it is what Mark Benioff said. It's Clippy 2.0. Yeah. You know, hey, it looks like you're trying to make a ransom note or whatever, you know. No, I'm not, but thanks for popping up, you irritating little paperclip. And you know, this is this not the next generation? It kind of is. Right?

[Richard Campbell]

Yes. Anyway, all this certification of all things all over.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everything must be made terrible. Oh, do you like using this product?

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, it's like everything's a little crappier. Like everything. Like everything. Like everything. Have I said everything? Everything.

[Richard Campbell]

Lou's in a loop.

[Leo Laporte]

It's just a little bit worse, which is.

[Paul Thurrott]

I know. Notion. Some people don't like it. Some people. I like that you change your hat every time you come back.

[Leo Laporte]

This is a really good hat.

[Paul Thurrott]

But notion to me is the one thing that flips the bit on insertification. It's the one thing that so far. And by the way, they'll absolutely screwed up. This thing that I love will be ruined. There's no doubt about it. But to date, you know, it's just sitting there working every day. We use it extensively. Yeah, great. You know, I don't really have any major problems. Sometimes I get on a plane and I can't use the thing. But then again, most times I'm on a plane. There is WI Fi. So, you know, we're.

[Richard Campbell]

If you really need to use it, drop the 20 bucks.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, well. Or just open that page. I guess before you leave, you can. I think it just. It keeps the most recent, whatever number of pages in memory or whatever it is, but I don't know anywho. Yeah. So Apple Intelligence. Yeah, whatever. But the big thing to me is Apple. Well, Apple finally moved to a 16 gigabyte RAM minimum on all their Macs. And by all their Macs, I mean even their older Macs, including the M2 and M3 based MacBook Air. Oh, interesting. I did not notice that. Really cool. Now, in the PC space, you could probably buy a computer with four gigabytes if you wanted to. But you know, eight gigs is probably more standard, I would say.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

With Copilot plus PC, Microsoft has specified a 16 gigabyte.

[Leo Laporte]

That's probably why.

[Paul Thurrott]

Which to me is what should be the case. So we're in this. I started thinking about it like planets aligning like every once in a while. The recommendations all make sense, you know, because I advise people, Mac or windows, you know, 16 kind of the minimum. I mean, 32 gigs better. I mean for most people, especially people watching this show. And if you have a copilot PC or that kind of class PC, gaming PC, whatever it might be, 32 is even better. You know, I went back this morning to all the books that I have still in manuscript form to see what my recommendations were over the years. The oldest one I found was from Windows Vista. Windows Vista would have worked with. Worked, you know, worked with 512 megabytes of RAM if I remember this correctly. And I was recommending at least two, I guess, gigabytes. Right. It sounds, I'm trying to sound gigabytes. Yeah, gigabytes, you know, three, four, whatever would be better. And remember at that time the big limitation was that most PCs were 32 bit. Right. And so four gig was it. And it would take some of that for. Sorry about that.

[Leo Laporte]

Hello.

[Paul Thurrott]

For video and whatever.

[Richard Campbell]

HP still sells PCs with four gigs around.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, of course they are.

[Leo Laporte]

Did we just do something bad on the show that I missed?

[Paul Thurrott]

What's that?

[Leo Laporte]

Because we just got a notice that says live visibility restricted. This is tick tock. I think regulated goods content, regulated goods. Do you think my Russian hat.

[Paul Thurrott]

Oh, you got to be kidding me.

[Leo Laporte]

You think that bothers them?

[Paul Thurrott]

No, I love it.

[Leo Laporte]

Hello. Is good regulated.

[Paul Thurrott]

We would like 30% of whatever you're making on selling that hat.

[Leo Laporte]

By the way, I love the suggestion from Bisto5 in our club to discord instead of vacation, we say in clippification.

[Paul Thurrott]

Nice.

[Leo Laporte]

I think that says it all, doesn't it?

[Paul Thurrott]

That's pretty good. So Richard found a four gigabyte RAM HP. Of course he did. She's HP. Come on, man. So 400 bucks. So look, 16 gigs, guys. That's all I'm saying. Minimum.

[Richard Campbell]

This is it.

[Paul Thurrott]

It's 2024. Let's scroll.

[Richard Campbell]

Tell me you want to watch Windows 11 boot in four gigs.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep. Oh yeah. So in the Vista, well, there was an XP sku, but Vista was the version, the first one that came with both 32 and 64 bit discs in the box. Windows 7, looking back at what I wrote about at the time this morning, was when that shift was mainstream. And yep, you'd be stupid not to do this. And the big thing there, of course was 8 whatever gigs of RAM you could go up from there with a 64 bit platform, which is good. There are theoretical maximums that are enormous. I don't remember the numbers anymore. 192 gigabytes at one point, some number of terabytes now, whatever it is. But yeah, you know, realistically speaking, you're buying a computer for yourself, so it's going to be, you know, 16, 32, 64, probably where it's going to land there.

[Richard Campbell]

There are terabyte SQL servers out there. Terabyte?

[Paul Thurrott]

Oh, no, I mean for people, like.

[Leo Laporte]

Just for, you know, for people not, not databases.

[Richard Campbell]

Just want to remind you that server 2025 supports up to 4 petabytes of RAM.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, I mean, and server went 64 bit first, of course. And that's where you start that stuff.

[Leo Laporte]

And that's also because you're storing data sets in RAM for speed.

[Richard Campbell]

Well, and you are paging between 256 terabyte RAM.

[Leo Laporte]

Exactly.

[Richard Campbell]

Because how many 256 terabyte RAM blocks do you really need?

[Paul Thurrott]

So there are actually two workloads for that. There's the SQL Server thing that you said and then there's people that use Chrome and have lots of tabs.

[Leo Laporte]

Chrome tabs, absolutely.

[Richard Campbell]

How much slack are you using exactly?

[Leo Laporte]

It's funny, I know you probably use drag and dictate back in the day.

[Paul Thurrott]

Paul. I know David was convinced that was my future.

[Leo Laporte]

His index is that way. He wouldn't write the book that way, but he would use the dictation to do the index, which is actually quite clever.

[Paul Thurrott]

I started getting pain in my hands. I thought, it's over. I'm going to be sitting there like a cripple and I'm going to be dictating books. And that's how write.

[Leo Laporte]

So it got much better not when the CPU speeds went up, but when RAM went up because it had to use the. It had to use memory for its dictionary.

[Paul Thurrott]

So by the way, related to that, I don't know if you guys saw this and I can't remember which AI it was. It might have been an OpenAI thing. They were talking about how this thing actually works better. You know, we know that if you can cut the data set down, it works better. They found that if you just let it work for a moment, it actually works better. So instead of coming back instantly, it will say, give it a second, hold on. And it actually is More reliable and accurate. If it does that.

[Leo Laporte]

That's the new reasoning.

[Paul Thurrott]

Just run the loop again, like we're going to do. Just run it three times or whatever.

[Leo Laporte]

Actually, there is a prompt that people use all the time that helps, which is like when you give a code, say, is there anything you can improve in that code?

[Paul Thurrott]

I love it.

[Leo Laporte]

Look at your answer and see if there's anything you could improve in the answer.

[Paul Thurrott]

This is what you say to a child where you say something like, is that your final answer?

[Leo Laporte]

Or want to go with that?

[Richard Campbell]

Or is that fire to your pet?

[Paul Thurrott]

You're wearing that. Huh? You're wearing that for breakfast, but when you go to school you're going to change, right?

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

You know that kind of conversation.

[Leo Laporte]

There's nothing like a belly shirt at breakfast.

[Paul Thurrott]

I, I mean, Dragon, The Dragon. Didn't the Dragon naturally speaking stuff actually come out of IBM Research originally? Wasn't that.

[Leo Laporte]

It might have been that they were. It wasn't Boston. It might have been that they were. I thought so at IBM and then moved out. But. And then Nuance bought everything.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. And then it's.

[Leo Laporte]

And then who bought Nuance?

[Paul Thurrott]

I probably. Microsoft tried Microsoft. Right. I think.

[Leo Laporte]

Did they get it?

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, they did.

[Leo Laporte]

I think they think they did. So it's all within Microsoft. But the point, my point being that there are some things a computer does that having a lot of RAM is very helpful and I'm, I'm sure AI is in that, like speech recognition is in that category. The more of the model you can keep in RAM, the better it's going to do. All of Apple's iOS devices, new ones are eight, which is a big jump for them.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep.

[Leo Laporte]

Remember they used to say when they were shipping 8 gig Macs, well, 8 gigs on them on an M1 is.

[Paul Thurrott]

Just as good as 16. I still have people parroting this back to me and it's like, no, no, no, no, it's not true. Like it's. If you buy pro and you're just playing with it a little bit, yeah, it's fine. But it like day to day, every day and then for the next three to five years. No, like.

[Leo Laporte]

So I did buy, I did order a new Mac Mini. I hesitated for a long time, but I finally did and I thought, well put, 64 gigs.

[Paul Thurrott]

Did you get a pro chip?

[Richard Campbell]

And the correct amount of RAM is always more.

[Leo Laporte]

It's always. And you can't add later.

[Paul Thurrott]

This is, of course, this is where Apple gets you. Right. So every eight gigs is like another 200 bucks.

[Leo Laporte]

800 bucks or something for the 64 gigs.

[Paul Thurrott]

It's ridiculous, but that's how they get you. But this is. There's a word for this, right? You go into the dealership to buy because you started an app for a car and then you. Yeah, you buy the. You walk up with, you know. Yeah, double the price, whatever.

[Richard Campbell]

So, not to further digress, but you do need to ask me sometime about an African Bray Parrot Dragon naturally speaking and X10 controllers. Because that was an experience.

[Leo Laporte]

No, I think you have to tell that now, Richard. Well, you can't leave us hanging.

[Richard Campbell]

His name was Timmy, my buddy's bird. And yeah, we got one of the dragon naturally speaking boards plugged in. This is in the late 80s. And we used X10 to control the drapes and the lights. And sure enough, Timmy learned how to use it almost immediately. And that's when you found out the bird liked to go to bed early.

[Leo Laporte]

Close the drapes. Close the drapes.

[Richard Campbell]

It's about 8:00, the drapes are closed, the lights are off. It's like, this is the type of.

[Paul Thurrott]

Video that I watch on Instagram regularly. Like the one where the guy takes a picture of a chimpanzee and then the chimpanzee picks up the camera from the guy and starts flipping through the photos.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yikes.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

Like animals are smarter than you think.

[Richard Campbell]

Well, eventually we, we talked to me because he, we gave him a radio so he could turn the radio on for himself. He only listened to one program and that program was a religious radio station. It was the Canadian equivalent of Rush Limbaugh. That was a very right wing, right wing gray. That's what it was. Yeah, he liked that one show. He liked that one voice. And he knew when it was on.

[Leo Laporte]

So he knew what time it was. And at 10am turn on.

[Richard Campbell]

He said, listen for the hour.

[Leo Laporte]

Time for Limbaugh.

[Richard Campbell]

Exactly.

[Paul Thurrott]

Wow.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah. And daylight savings time wreaked.

[Paul Thurrott]

Build the wall.

[Leo Laporte]

That's amazing. Yeah, the parrot really was. I mean, that's not instinctual. That's intelligence.

[Paul Thurrott]

Right, right.

[Richard Campbell]

That, that's the thing, this stimulus response stuff.

[Paul Thurrott]

Right.

[Richard Campbell]

Like, without a doubt, he quickly learned that he could use his sound to get what he wanted.

[Leo Laporte]

It felt good. So you make this sound and something good happens.

[Richard Campbell]

Right. He could ask for water and we'd give him water. He liked being sprayed down, you know.

[Paul Thurrott]

So who does it?

[Leo Laporte]

And it's Jimmy the right wing parrot. I think there's a show there.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, I think it's actually on.

[Richard Campbell]

But that moment where you're fighting with the bird to be able to watch TV for another hour. Like, where's happened to my life?

[Paul Thurrott]

Right?

[Richard Campbell]

Like, why am I fighting with this bird trying to open the. Turn the lights back on.

[Paul Thurrott]

Well, this is the. I mean we just talked about that with AI. I've had that experience with children where you say something like, mark, don't sit on your sister's head is a word.

[Richard Campbell]

Like is a sentence I never need.

[Paul Thurrott]

To anticipated coming out of my mouth. You know, like doesn't make any sense. But.

[Leo Laporte]

All right, let's talk about Ark and then we'll take it.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, just real quick, so.

[Leo Laporte]

Well, this is a big story, man. You go on the ARC subreddit and people are po.

[Paul Thurrott]

ARC is fascinating. I don't know that there is a more divisive application in the world than arc. Right.

[Leo Laporte]

It's a browser, but it's a really nice browser.

[Richard Campbell]

I mean it was a nice browser.

[Paul Thurrott]

At a very high level. If you just sort of say. And everyone would agree that, look, the browser is the most important application on your desktop computer or your phone.

[Richard Campbell]

It's the one you say it's the most Windows on your desktop.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep. Okay. Why are they all exactly the same? I mean, even when we talk about things like Brave. Because they have all these great built in security, privacy, fundamentally Vilvaldi, which lets you customize it to infinity or whatever. I mean at the end of the day, it's web pages, tabs. It's the basic user experience. It's only so many variants, unchanged for 20 years. Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

It still looks like Netscape deep down.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. I do like the idea that someone. It's not going to come from the established dominant players. Right. Is rethink. Like this is important. Maybe we need to get this right. And so this thing they've come up with, ARC is on the one. It's. It's so different. It's off putting. There are some people, many people, I would say probably most people look at this thing and be like, nope, no, I can't, it's too different. And even me, I as a, you know, assorted power user, whatever, there are things about it where I'm like, oof. I don't, you know. But there are also some people, we don't know what the percentage is, but let's say it's 10 to 20% who see this thing and go, oh yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

This is the only way.

[Paul Thurrott]

This is it. I am never leaving this thing. So the thing, it's leaving you. Yeah, well, no, I'll know. I mean we'll See, it's not going away or anything. At least not yet. But you know, this company, these. It's like eight guys, whatever. This has some vision for what? Maybe that whatever the future computing could be, they see it through a web browser or web browser like product. They see that as the platform. Yep. Okay, that's fine. I get it. They're like, look, we made this thing. We threw some features in there. It's too convoluted. I can't go. Someone who works here, the CEO. I can't go to my mother, my sister, my cousins. And they're like, no, it's too complicated for me. She's like, okay, so what am I going to do? And so they've been polling users. Here are the three big bucket features. If we had to get rid of just one of them, which one would you get rid of? And overwhelmingly, it was like, don't get rid of any of them. What are you talking about? People love all of those features. The people who love arc, which is so they finally. I mean, I guess I give them credit for this. They're like, we're going to have to start over. We have to make something different. And obviously AI. Something. Something. I don't know, whatever it is, but it has to be simple and it has to just work. And by the way, within God, like Google, I swear to God, within days this story comes out that Google is doing something that sounds really similar in Chrome with something called Project Jarvis. Right. This notion that the browser becomes. He didn't say it this way. Agentic. Right. And works on your behalf.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

And goes out and does things. So what could a browser do? Look for like the lowest price in a product you've been shopping for, or alert you when something. Something happens, whatever it is, like you'd like. There are topics you care about, like, let me know when, you know, Microsoft's earnings drop. I need to know when that happens, that kind of thing. So there's no doubt that browsers will evolve and will involve along those lines to some degree. It's just fascinating to me that they built this thing that's very. I would call it opinionated. You know, it's very specific. And they're like, you know, it didn't resonate with enough people. We have whatever number, millions of users, whatever it is. But anyway, so for now they're keeping the original around. You know, we'll see if that becomes tenable over the long term. I don't know.

[Leo Laporte]

This may be what Richard was talking about. They took venture capital money.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep.

[Leo Laporte]

And for a VC to be happy, they've got to get a hundred million users. And Ark is, I mean you, you.

[Paul Thurrott]

Got over the past year, but you can do the math. You know, we're not going to reach a billion users, not 10 times.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah. So I mean, I use it because I love it and you got me using it and then you abandoned me. But anyway, I'm not bitter as I do, but I love it. And you know, I'll show people one of the things that I really like about it. Here I am on your. On your show notes and if I click this story instead of opening a new.

[Paul Thurrott]

It opens above. I know I love this.

[Leo Laporte]

It opens above it and then when I close it, I'm back where I was. There's little things like that. Yeah, it's got the bar, it's got spaces.

[Paul Thurrott]

That's a perfect example of something that's scary to some people. Like.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, I understand.

[Paul Thurrott]

Like, what is this?

[Leo Laporte]

But once you get used to it. No, I will be very. I will be sorely missed if they.

[Paul Thurrott]

Decide they built in things like that work between Google Calendar and Gmail like that. Right. Where you can with. You don't have to go into the app. Yeah, it opens, the thing just pops up. Whatever it might be like the meeting or whatever.

[Leo Laporte]

And it supports all the extensions. I wonder if Google abandoning manifest v2 and moving to v3 and thereby breaking.

[Paul Thurrott]

They're going to have a tougher time fighting that than say Brave or Opera. For sure.

[Leo Laporte]

It's a tiny brave solution was to say, okay, well we're going to build the equivalent of Ublock Origin into the browser.

[Paul Thurrott]

You ever used it? It's not very. It's not as good if you run that against the privacy sites. Whatever's in there now, you still need an extension like you can't use.

[Leo Laporte]

So ARC would have to in effect put Ublock Origin in arc. Otherwise they're a chromium browser.

[Paul Thurrott]

So they're going to have to do.

[Leo Laporte]

Ultimately what Google says.

[Paul Thurrott]

Well, I mean, I mean there are other ad blocking things that seem to work pretty well. I mean, I'm not.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, Ublock Origin has released a light version.

[Paul Thurrott]

Look, if you're technical enough to use arc, I think you can handle the extension.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, actually that's a good point. Most, I'll be honest, I don't care because I do use Ublock Origin, but I also have Next DNS which does much privacy.

[Paul Thurrott]

Badger still works. I mean, we'll see.

[Leo Laporte]

Well, you don't even have to do as an extension. You can have it as a DNS replacement.

[Paul Thurrott]

Oh, there you go. Yeah. You could use like a pie hole.

[Leo Laporte]

And then that's true.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

Then it's everything.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep.

[Leo Laporte]

People are very salty about the browser company.

[Paul Thurrott]

Oh yeah. Yeah. And in both directions. I gotta say, the way they market themselves, the way they talk. I find a little, it's a little too hipster something to me. Like it's a little. But then again, I look at the product, I'm like, damn, they're doing something right. They've also been very open about look, at some point we do need to make money and obviously they're looking at subscription something something and Yep. I mean they're, they've been honest about it. I, I do appreciate the transparency there.

[Leo Laporte]

But maybe they'll come up with something really cool because they're going after I.

[Paul Thurrott]

Mean, I, I, I'm fascinated by what they're doing so far. So.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah. And I think mostly the, the upside said is that people put a little effort into converting to arc, now have a whole investment into Ark and are a little disappointed that maybe they've invested in something that's not.

[Richard Campbell]

Well, you've gone and engaged only the most interested audience.

[Paul Thurrott]

Exactly.

[Richard Campbell]

Want something and as we know. Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

Well. But that surprise.

[Leo Laporte]

They're going to be vocal when you.

[Paul Thurrott]

Welcome to our problem. Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

Take it away.

[Leo Laporte]

When we get hate mail, which we do from time to time. That's just a passionate user who loves what we do and is is passionate.

[Paul Thurrott]

You have a good attitude, Leo. I like that. I, I, I have a hard time with that.

[Richard Campbell]

Don't have a problem with love. It's me. Right. That's what you're trying to do.

[Leo Laporte]

That's what you don't want somebody who cares so little. They don't.

[Paul Thurrott]

They say they drift off.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah. I don't, I don't.

[Leo Laporte]

Most people are like that. Obviously.

[Paul Thurrott]

That's true.

[Leo Laporte]

All right, let's take a little break. Don't say meh because corporate earnings are coming up and I know you can't.

[Richard Campbell]

Wait the least met of them all.

[Leo Laporte]

The met the most meh of them all. And I suppose in deference to this sponsor, I should doff my do you like this, though? This beautiful Littleston cape is good. We'll see how the election goes next week. And I might be wearing this more. We'll see. I don't know. Our show today brought to you by. We love these guys. I talked to him last week or two weeks ago and I had never heard of us Cloud. They said, leah, we're the number one Microsoft Unified support replacement and they explained why and I went, oh, this makes a lot of sense. US Cloud is the global leader in third party. This is third party Microsoft Enterprise support, but it is beloved by its clients. 50 of the Fortune 500 use US Cloud. Why? Well, for two reasons. Switching to US Cloud can save your business 30 to 50% on a true comparable replacement for Microsoft Unified Support. But the other reason is it's better. US Cloud supports the entire Microsoft stack. 247365 they respond faster. And by the way, financial SLAs for response time, something Microsoft will not do. They respond faster, they resolve tickets quicker. For clients all over the world, you're always talking to real humans. Not just humans, but the best, most accomplished expert level engineers. They go the extra mile to recruit really good people. Average of 14.9 years. And that's for Break Fix or DSE. Their teams are 100% domestic, so your data never leaves the US. I mentioned the financially backed SLAs on response time. The initial ticket response averages under four minutes. And you know what? When things are breaking, stuff's going, yeah, it's so nice to get that call back within four minutes from an engineer who's really good or multiple engineers who really can solve the problem. In 2023, last year, 94% of U.S. cloud's clients reported saving 1/3 or more when switching from Microsoft support to U.S. cloud. From Fortune 500 companies and large health systems to major financial institutions and federal agencies, U.S. cloud ensures that vital Microsoft systems are working for over 6 million users globally every single day. And big brands and little companies, governments, they use US Cloud. Yeah, they save money. But I honestly think because it's so good, that the results are so good, big brands like a Caterpillar and HP, Aflac, Dun and Bradstreet, Under Armour, KeyBank, even the IT folks at Gartner have chosen US Cloud for their Microsoft support needs. A director of Information technology gave us a great quote. He said, and within an hour US Cloud responded with I want to say four engineers. So not only did they bring the right guys to the call, but they brought the cavalry. I just felt like, wow, that was amazing. That was unlike anything I had experienced in Microsoft in my eight years of being with Premier. We made the right choice. And when it comes to compliance, no one gets it better than US Cloud. ISO, gdpr, ESG compliance. Not just regulatory requirements, but real, true strategic imperatives that drive operational efficiency, legal compliance, risk management and corporate reputation. These standards foster trust and loyalty among Customers and stakeholders, they attract investment. They ensure long term sustainability and success in a competitive global market. It's like just getting a stamp of approval. Visit uscloud.com book a call today. Find out how much your team can save. I said, don't focus on savings. He said, well, that's important to a lot of people. I said focus on quality. That's uscloud.com book a call today. Get faster, better Microsoft support. Yeah, okay, I'll admit it. For less. Uscloud.com we thank him so much for supporting Windows Weekly and you support us when you go there and if they ask you say, oh yeah, I saw it on Windows Weekly. That will help too. All right, time to talk earnings. How did Microsoft do much money?

[Paul Thurrott]

Microsoft is announcing their earnings later today, so.

[Richard Campbell]

Oh, wait till the show is over.

[Paul Thurrott]

Before thinking it's going to be after the show. Yeah, it looks like it's going to be after the show, but we do.

[Leo Laporte]

Have some other companies. Yeah, actually Apple's doing it tomorrow, so.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, Apple's is tomorrow. And then Amazon will be in the mix somewhere in the next, whatever, three days, something before that though. There's a, there's been a years long fight in Europe between the major cloud vendors and mostly Microsoft and Google. And it's been kind of fascinating. I don't cover this space explicitly, but I do get Google cloud reach out regularly. And this, I don't know, a couple of days ago, yesterday, two days ago, Microsoft responded publicly in a very aggressive way. And I'm reminded of I had a friend at Microsoft, Dave Calton, many years ago, he was talking at the time about Dell and Microsoft and about how terrible they were to each other. And his assessment was these two companies deserve each other. I think this could apply here, right? And so what you've got is these three big American, big tech companies, right? Amazon, Microsoft and Google. Google being the smallest of the three, right. Trying to win customers, trying to whatever. We've talked, I think we've glossed over this a little bit in the past. We talked maybe about this notion of egress fees, right, where they get hard for antitrust murmurs, like what is this? And maybe I'm getting the order wrong. But I want to say late last year, maybe December last year, Amazon got rid of egress fees in Europe and probably worldwide. Google followed in January. And then Google immediately complained that Microsoft had egress fees, which I thought was hilarious. It was like two seconds later, you know. And you know, the argument against that's.

[Richard Campbell]

Only all this year.

[Paul Thurrott]

You know, like, okay, I know it's.

[Richard Campbell]

The end of October, but all that egress debate was this year.

[Paul Thurrott]

Okay. So there's. There's also bet. You know, all these companies have all these antitrust investigations, so it's kind of hard to keep track of this stuff. But there have been these industry groups that are made up of mostly European cloud companies, which are all very small. You've never heard of any of them.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

And rallying against Microsoft's egress fees in this case, or whatever it is, Microsoft settled with them. Microsoft is now accusing Google of organizing that trade group and, in fact, controlling it. And it's. The accusations are insane.

[Richard Campbell]

Like, presumably they have the evidence to back it up.

[Paul Thurrott]

They link to the evidence they do have.

[Richard Campbell]

It's crazy.

[Paul Thurrott]

Well, Google has reached out to me since I wrote about this and what they've said, and I've kind of added a quote from them, I think is the way I handle it. But they point to two specific instances where Microsoft points to something to say, this is how Google is doing something secretly, to say. If you actually go there and look at it, you can see that we are explicitly part of this thing they say we are secretly part of or something.

[Richard Campbell]

So it's not secret.

[Paul Thurrott]

I mean, Microsoft's complaint against them is basically that Google is waging a proxy war on Microsoft. Google wants to gain ground on Microsoft in the space. Obviously, that makes sense competitively. But the way they're doing it is to complain to antitrust regulators to rile up local European cloud vendors who maybe don't care to pay them if they don't show enough enthusiasm.

[Richard Campbell]

That's. I think, the line. That's the question I was going to ask. It's all fine to loop folks in and rile them up, but the moment you're paying for them, you're actually turfing one of the.

[Paul Thurrott]

Right. That's exactly Microsoft's charge. So according to Microsoft, this trade group in Europe of cloud vendors settled with Microsoft. The case was going to end. They went to the European Commission, said, forget it. We're not doing this anymore. You don't have to worry about this lawsuit. Google offered to pay them lots of money, hundreds of millions of dollars. They declined it. Wow. Yes. And then Microsoft publicized it. So it's.

[Richard Campbell]

This is ugly.

[Paul Thurrott]

Some. Some little fun to look at. You know, it's. There's nothing better than Godzilla and. And King Kong scoring off against each other.

[Richard Campbell]

One of them is Mothra, I'm pretty sure.

[Paul Thurrott]

One of them. Yeah. The problem here is I Have this naive desire for these companies to maybe. Look, I want. They compete in certain areas. I get this. But I feel like this kind of thing ruins any chance of these companies ever doing anything together. And it's.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, I don't know the answer to that. They always, you know, they're still all on the same chromium board, right?

[Paul Thurrott]

I know, but that's such a small bottom.

[Richard Campbell]

I know, but they're all small bits.

[Paul Thurrott]

Those guys do get along. I hear about that. I mean, that part of Microsoft and that part of Google so far has been going great, apparently.

[Richard Campbell]

So remember, it's Google. If as long as it's not search, it's just not that important.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, yeah. Anyway, one of the beautiful lines in this Microsoft document. Let me see if I. Yeah. They said, by our count, Google has at least 24 antitrust investigations against it. At a time when Google should be focused on addressing legitimate questions about its business, it's doing this instead. Right.

[Richard Campbell]

That is a big glass house standing.

[Paul Thurrott]

Brutal. That's brutal. You know, at that level of a. Of a company that big, that is. That's bare fist fighting. Like, that's crazy. You don't talk like that.

[Leo Laporte]

And they're not even suing each other.

[Paul Thurrott]

No, it's not.

[Leo Laporte]

The irony of it. It's not like they're in a court case together.

[Paul Thurrott]

Incredible. Even Apple didn't sue Google for this mobile stuff. They went after Samsung.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

You know, like, you don't. You just don't. It's so direct. It's amazing.

[Leo Laporte]

You don't tug on Superman's cape.

[Paul Thurrott]

It's crazy. Yeah, I know. It's nuts. Anyway, I just. It's notable for that. You should read this whole thing. It's, it's. There's a lot of very direct accusations in there, so. That's humorous. Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

So meantime, a giant pile of money land.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yes.

[Leo Laporte]

So I want to live there.

[Paul Thurrott]

So Google, speaking of Google or Alphabet. Right. The parent company, they just announced their earnings. I will say Google, like Apple now and like Microsoft 20 years ago, 25 years ago, is trying to be more diverse. Knowing that if you have one giant product and a bunch of small products and something bad happens to the giant product, you're screwed. Historically, their advertising. I'm sorry, revenues from advertising were 70 to 80%. Right?

[Richard Campbell]

Yep.

[Paul Thurrott]

It's been going down a little bit. So this past quarter was 66%, if my math is correct.

[Richard Campbell]

Okay.

[Paul Thurrott]

Big quarter for Google Cloud. You know, it's like Microsoft, like Apple actually. You don't really know where the money's coming from. Exactly. Except in some cases, I mean, we know the advertising money. Right. We know what portion of that is YouTube, et cetera. But the way they break up the company, it's kind of. It's kind of hard to say. When they say something like, for example, subscriptions, platforms and devices. Right. So we've just lumped in Android, Pixel Nest, Google One. You know, it's a bunch of things. Chrome, OS and all the associated stuff. So what part of what comes from. We don't know. I mean, very vague things. There was a report from a third party I don't necessarily trust. That said, Google probably sold more pixels in that last quarter than it ever had. And all they said about that was very vaguely. We saw strong demand for the Pixel 9 series.

[Richard Campbell]

Nice.

[Paul Thurrott]

Like just nothing. So it's kind of hard to see.

[Richard Campbell]

Copa 9 right here.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. Yep. I just. Yep. I just went back to my 9 Pro, actually.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

That rounded corner thing starting to bug me.

[Paul Thurrott]

Oh, interesting.

[Richard Campbell]

I had a few apps with like. With like, close buttons in the corner and only half of it's visible.

[Paul Thurrott]

So this is a bigger problem on PC, by the way, because when you maximize apps, it shoots up into the round corner of the screen. Well, I guess you're describing the same problem, but it's more common, I would say, on desktop than it is on mobile.

[Richard Campbell]

But it's interesting.

[Leo Laporte]

I never even thought about that.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep. It's kind of weird. And if you're Microsoft and you make something like Surface Laptop, the curve of the screen and the curve of the outside of the lid are different angles or whatever, or different arcs. Yep. Because it's Microsoft. They can't get the little things right. And, yeah, Apple would just die. Oh, my God, look at the MacBook Air. It's perfect. It's 100% perfect. Yep. Yep. That's the model, guys. Sorry. AMD also announced their earnings a little bit less than Google. Like less than one tenth as much. And by the way, interesting. So AMD, 6.8 billion in revenues. Right. This is a company that earns a profit of under a billion. Right. Small in this space.

[Leo Laporte]

I mean, it really is small.

[Paul Thurrott]

It is small. Quarterly thing for. Yeah. The weird thing for AMD is a quarter, but still, it's, you know, it's small. I mean, it's.

[Richard Campbell]

I don't know. I take.

[Paul Thurrott]

It's a tiny player. It's a tiny player in Data center, but growing rapidly in this market, trying to compete with Nvidia, which is going gangbusters. It's a tiny player in PCs and it's trying to make some inroads there. And now Qualcomm has come along and probably more in the future. Windows and ARM type things. And so, you know, they're there. They do. Well, I think this is later in the show. Yeah, I'm going to talk about this later, but sometime this week I'll publish my review of the first Zen 5 based laptop that I've used. It is awesome. Like, wow. Without qualifying anything. It's awesome. Now, the battery life is not as good as we see on arm, of course, but it's very good for an X86, whatever it's. And the graphics performance for things like games is off the charts. It's just. It looks like a standard business laptop, but it is a wolf in sheep's clothing, you know, so they're doing something right, you know, but they're small. I mean, I worry about them a little bit. I think they get lost in the mix.

[Richard Campbell]

You know, they exist because the military wanted their second source for intelligence.

[Paul Thurrott]

They. They said they weren't super clear about this, but my understanding of this. They talked about supply chain constraints. It's not 2021 again, so what. What are you talking about? And I think what they meant was because Nvidia is making chips at such volume, they get preference over at TSMC and they just can't get in the queue, you know, and they would have sold more if they could have made them. So that's kind of an interesting problem as well.

[Richard Campbell]

And speaks to the issue with separated foundries. You know, one thing about vertical integration is you have control of your own production.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. AMD used to have their own fabs too, by the way. I mean this is the thing everyone did, right.

[Richard Campbell]

But they modernized the way intel. And now intel looks like the dinosaur that may be broken up, but, you know, supply chain.

[Paul Thurrott]

I blame Tim Cook for this, by the way. When he was still cf. No, he's cmo.

[Richard Campbell]

Coo. When he was co and he would do things like buy up all of production and blocks.

[Paul Thurrott]

But he got Apple, Apple stopped making their own stuff. He offshored everything, found the cheapest place. You know, China was the big one for now and now India, Vietnam, wherever else they're going. But that was him like that. It was. And it was. Look, it's saving money. Makes sense. I mean it's kind of hard to.

[Richard Campbell]

It wasn't just saving money, it was also. He got a lot of innovation out of it. But he also blocked like he. When he found the guys making the High density ram. He blocked. He bought all of it.

[Paul Thurrott]

Oh they did all this stuff. I mean the original iPhone, nobody could compare. Toshiba made this tiny. I think it was 2 or 2.5 inch hard drive. It's a hard drive. Not even an SSD. They had no idea what to use it for. No one wanted it. No one could use it for anything. And Apple happened to be working on the ipod and someone said you buy every single one of those things for the next year. And they sopped it up. So people are other companies that wanted to compete couldn't find the drives right there. No drives left. No.

[Richard Campbell]

It's brilliant. And it means it's another way of competing. And it's questionable one like that's good FTC WTO fodder. Yeah, but it is.

[Paul Thurrott]

I mean you're not dominant, right? That's the thing. You're Apple until you entering a market that for it did not exist at the time.

[Richard Campbell]

I mean barely. The MP3 player existed, it just was.

[Paul Thurrott]

But not at Apple. So what was the problem with an outside player dominant? No one else creative could have said we need the drive. They didn't even bother.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, I'm with you.

[Leo Laporte]

It's a little different with the TSMC buying all the 3 nanometer production from TSMC.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, it's tough.

[Richard Campbell]

And they're. The constraint primarily is people operating the machines.

[Paul Thurrott]

Right.

[Richard Campbell]

Like this is the issue they're having trying to set up those machines in.

[Paul Thurrott]

The U.S. i gotta find people with tiny fingers.

[Richard Campbell]

3 nanometer fingers, they're hard to come by.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

Well, we'll watch tomorrow our friend Jason Snell on the MacBreak weekly show apples Tomorrow.

[Paul Thurrott]

Microsoft is late today. I think like I said after the.

[Leo Laporte]

Show, it looks like that's honestly these days it's just become a drumbeat of success. It's very rare with these particular companies.

[Paul Thurrott]

You have to really look for it to find the problem. Because by the way, even AMD I mentioned supply constraint. I mentioned how small they are compared to these other companies. One thing I didn't tell you by the way, their earnings like net income was up almost 200% year over year. And their revenues, which is maybe the more meaningful number still double digits, 17% like they're doing great. Their revenues were in fact a corporate record. It's just that they play in a pool with these gigantic fish. Yeah, it's kind of tough. Like they. It's too bad AMD couldn't find a market where they could, you know, just.

[Richard Campbell]

Kind of take it hard being a badass minnow in a pool full of sharks.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, I know, it's. Yeah, they're in a tough spot, but they seem to be doing good work, so.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, they. What they aren't is headlines about their corporate governance and their misdirection and things like that. Like they're actually doing good things.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep. Yeah. One of their. One of the bits of business it might have been, the only part of their business that fell year over year was gaming. And if I understand this business correctly, gaming is made up of two parts. One is the money they get from Xbox. Right. So yikes, of course it is. And then the other, I believe, is their, you know, graphics cards and things like that. So.

[Richard Campbell]

Right.

[Paul Thurrott]

But as we'll discuss later in the show, I mean, we're getting to the point. Obviously there will always be need for dedicated graphics cards, especially maybe even in the data center or whatever, but in the PC space, it's fascinating to me that they're. They probably call it something different, but their integrated graphics are unbelievably good right now. And it's just, it's just astonishing, like how good it is. I'll get to it. We'll talk about this.

[Leo Laporte]

Let us take a little pause because I hate to. I like to have the Xbox segment live in a world of its own.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, it does in a way. Live in.

[Richard Campbell]

It has a sting.

[Paul Thurrott]

It must be Shangri La, if you will. Oh, yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

Kevin, get the Halo sting. I'm ready.

[Paul Thurrott]

You're totally not going to be sued for this sound.

[Leo Laporte]

Will we play it back backwards?

[Paul Thurrott]

So all is dead?

[Leo Laporte]

I think that gets us off the content ID hook. I don't know. I'm still trying to figure out what Tick Tock thought was contraband.

[Paul Thurrott]

I'm hoping it's your hat. I. I would give the hats.

[Leo Laporte]

I'm wearing the hats.

[Paul Thurrott]

There's a monetization thing happening here that we don't approve of and it's not.

[Leo Laporte]

Happening specifically to keep the Tick Tock audience watching.

[Paul Thurrott]

I love it.

[Leo Laporte]

They need something. God knows we do stream now on eight different platforms including TikTok, YouTube, Twitch, Kik, X dot com, LinkedIn, Facebook, of course, our club, Twitter, Discord and TikTok. If you're not in the club, please do join the club. We'd love to have you. Seven bucks a month gets you ad free versions of all the shows access to the Discord, which is a great hanging with some really fun, interesting people. And it goes on day and night. You don't have to be watching a show to be in The Club Twit discord. That party is ongoing and we also do spend. By the way, when I say party, I mean party. They really like the animated gifs thing. That's a big part of what they do. Yes, I have many hats. $7. Twit TV ClubTwit. Oh, and there's one more thing that's pretty darn cool. We. We now have a referral program for Club Twit, which means if you want to get a free membership, all you have to do is tell a friend. And for every friend, you get to join the club, you get a free month of Club Twit. And that could be forever if you have enough friends. So I would suggest you go to TWiT TV ClubTWiT Sign up. Join the club. It supports us, it keeps. Keeps us going, does not go into my pocket. It helps us pay Paul and Rich and all of our team. Kevin keeps the lights on and all of that and really makes a big difference to our bottom line. We don't do it because we want to set up a paywall of any kind. We do it because we need to help the revenue out in these tough times. We have, literally, I don't want to scare you guys, but we have sold no ads for 2025. Everybody, every advertiser is like, let's wait and see what happens. Let's wait and see what happens. And. But that's a problem because we still have to pay everybody. So what you do helps us a lot. Thank you to the members of Club Trade. Now I'm going to take off the silly panda hat because I have to get serious because we have a serious sponsor today. This is a great sponsor. You've heard us talk about the idea of zero trust security. It might have been Google. That was the first, certainly the first place I heard of it, where they just, you know, traditional perimeter security. You block everybody, keep them out, but then you assume if they're inside the network, they must be good guys, right? Yeah, no, obviously not. So Zero Trust is a way of handling that. And of course, the easiest best way to do zero trust and look around and you'll see people agree is Threat Locker. It's affordable, it's really effective. If you're worried about zero day exploits, supply chain attacks, if those threats are keeping you up at night, worry no more because you can really. This is the best way to harden your security. Threat Locker. 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It limits attackers lateral movement within the network and it really works. Ring Fencing from Threat Locker was able to foil a number of attacks that were not stopped by traditional EDR. I'll give you an example. The cyber attack, the SolarWinds Orion cyber attack. A lot of people use SolarWinds, Orion, people who use that and Threat Locker Ring fencing foiled the cyber attack. It stopped it cold. Another good thing because you know, we now work in heterogeneous networks. Threat Locker works for Macs too. Windows and Mac get unprecedented visibility and control of your cybersecurity quickly, easily cost effectively. Threat Locker zero trust endpoint protection platform offers a unified approach to protecting users, devices and networks against the exploitation of zero day vulnerabilities. Get a free 30 day trial. Learn more how Threat Locker can help mitigate unknown threats. Brand new threats, no one's seen them before that that's why you can't use a traditional edr. The best way to do this is to say hey, you can't get in until I say so. They can mitigate unknown threats and because there's a complete, you know, trail of everything you've done, completely ensure compliance. It's so cool. Visit threat locker.com threatlocker.com we thank them so much for supporting Windows Weekly. You support us when you go there and if they ask, say I saw it on windows weekly. Threat locker.com and now it's time for the Sweat Locker. I mean the Xbox segment with Mr. Nice.

[Paul Thurrott]

Paul Sweathogs.

[Leo Laporte]

The Sweat box. I like that. Is that the backwards version? I love that. Yep, it gives it a little something extra.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, I just played it backwards on my keyboard. It sounds. I'm getting flashbacks to Catholic church as a child. Nice, you know, repent your sins.

[Leo Laporte]

I love it.

[Paul Thurrott]

Kind of like it.

[Leo Laporte]

I love it. Anyway, what's up in the Xbox here?

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, so as we careen into the end of the year, I've been trying to decide whether what's happened with Windows this year is worse or better or not as bad maybe as what's happened with Xbox right now. It's kind of a toss up. But every year at this time, at this month, Satya Nadella writes a letter to shareholders and it's mostly about momentum and a little bit about hinting about maybe where things are going to go in the future. So when I saw that, I said, you know, let me just see what he had to say about gaming and Xbox. And, you know, not that much as it turns out, but he did kind of encapsulate the X Xbox strategy today in a single sentence, which is we are bringing great games to more people on more devices. Now if that were true, I guess I'd be really excited about it. But it's fair to say that Activision Blizzard was the culmination of a game studio buying spree. Also the apex of that, I would say. And now they have that in place. They've got the subscription services, which makes Xbox makes sense. Within the Microsoft of today. I'm sure there's AI stuff coming. Don't worry, we're not going to forget about Xbox. Richard has talked about this notion of using AI to create gaming environments and storylines and everything. It's going to be an interesting thing. He talks about having 20 franchises now between Activision Blizzard and stuff that Microsoft already owned that have generated over a billion dollars in lifetime revenue. Right. Halo, Gears of War, Diablo, Warcraft, Elder Skull. I think Call of duty makes $1 billion every 15 seconds. So that's probably why I didn't make the list. But also Candy crush on mobile. Right. So this kind of made me think, you know, people who love Xbox. Xbox fans did not anticipate this year. You know, it's fair to say, but what's the goal? Like what's the point? Like what are we waiting on here? Like, what's the thing that's going to happen? Like, where are they going with this? Right. When you say as the console maker that you're going to bring more games to more people on more devices, you're explicitly or implicitly saying that console is not the primary platform, you know, the primary platform anymore. Although they have bragged about this next gen thing coming down the pike that's going to blow all our minds and everything. And I have my suspicions that this thing might be ARM based if they can get it There. Right. That. That's part of it. Brad has speculated that they might farm out Xbox hardware to third parties like they do with PCs. Right. That you might have, you know, some number of PC or hardware makers that will manufacture Xbox consoles in the future. Maybe some of them will be mobile in nature like Steam Deck, Stream Deck, Steam Deck, Steam Deck. Sorry. Cloud gaming. Right. Which is limited right now to Xbox Game Pass ultimate, which is 20 bucks a month. It's very expensive. Is not necessarily the greatest experience. Although I'm actually going to talk about that in a minute as well. I'm surprised there isn't a standalone Game Pass Sku. Right. So I guess we can only speculate. I guess that's sort of. Oh, I should add too. I'm sorry, I forgot the other piece of the puzzle there is mobile. They've talked explicitly about bringing a mobile game store of some kind both to Apple's and Google's mobile platforms. Now the Google one has been pushed back because of the successful attempt to stall that by appealing. Which makes sense. And of course the Apple stuff will probably happen and we'll see what that looks like in the EU only. Although I think eventually those things all kind of follow along together. Does Xbox make more native mobile games? Is it going to be all cloud gaming where they bring console class games to it? Like a streaming type thing? You know, I don't know. But at the beginning of this year I was really excited about Xbox and at the end of the year I'm just trying to hold it together, you know. Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

And just not much has happened. Like I don't know that I compare Windows and Xbox fairly there. Windows has actually done a real heavy lift. Get 24H2 out the door.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep. It's.

[Richard Campbell]

You almost undermined its value by calling it a service pack. It was a major update to the os.

[Paul Thurrott]

I guess I mean it from sort of a chaos perspective. In other words, like you head into this year and for Windows, this year is really kind of an October to October thing. You think you've got a handle on what we're doing and then this year happens. You're like, I guess not.

[Richard Campbell]

No. That's the whole thing is this time last year it's like we've had six months of fighting over this acquisition that Sony did their very best to make it sound like the world was going to end if it went through. And now it's been a year and really nothing.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep.

[Richard Campbell]

Not a thing.

[Paul Thurrott]

I won't remember the judge or the exact. I think maybe what you'll Remember is.

[Richard Campbell]

That after it happened, nothing happened.

[Paul Thurrott]

And that's what one of the I think was the judge in the gamers lawsuit said. You know, he's basically what you just said. A year from now what's going to happen is you're going to play the game you want to play on the platform you want to play and nothing will have changed.

[Richard Campbell]

Well, and of course I don't even know that that's true because we haven't even seen much in the way of major cross plat moves. What we've really seen is essentially nothing. I mean the good news is Blizzard has shipped Diablo, they have shipped updates to World of Warcraft. Like it sounds like parts of the company are still functioning. But where's a new marquee title? Where's a shuffling of that? Where's releases on other platforms like yeah, nothing happened.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, so this is part. Right. So the final sentence of Satya Nadella's blurb about Xbox and gaming was mentioned that they did bring four of their. He called them fan favorite titles, which means not our biggest titles but you know, Sea of thieves, et cetera, to Nintendo Switch and Sony PlayStation for the first time. And we will continue to extend our content to new platforms.

[Richard Campbell]

So maybe it was a dabbling year, like they're just sort of trying things.

[Paul Thurrott]

Well, we know the Indiana Jones game that's coming out I think right at the end of the year is going to come to PlayStation. There'll be more of this stuff. Okay, fine. I know that upsets some people having played Call of Duty for many years and watching it go from, in my case from being Xbox only online experience to Xbox plus PlayStation online experience to today Xbox Plus, PlayStation Plus PC plus game streaming by the way, or cloud gaming as Microsoft calls it. So things change. I mean I do like the big tent aspect of the Xbox vision. I think it is what makes sense for the brand and for the product line or whatever. I think getting out of hardware would make a ton of sense even though I know that upsets people.

[Richard Campbell]

But that's nothing to do with Blizzard per se. I would go back to the Blizzard thing and say it is super normal in an M and A acquisition to be hands off for the first year.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. And actually if you look at aside from the fact that the latest Call of Duty game has come to game pass first time a new major release did has come to game streaming. These are things Activision wouldn't have done on its own explicitly said we will never do this has unrolled. This game just came out Friday, so it's not even been a week, but this has unrolled just like it feels like previous Call of Duty releases. Right. If you didn't know Microsoft had a role, if you didn't know they spent $68 billion on this thing, you wouldn't really know anything had changed. And you're right. I think that's the point. They don't want to promote that part of it because why would they? What does that have to do with anyone playing on PlayStation? I don't care about that.

[Richard Campbell]

No. And I think it also takes a while to get your hands on the company, to actually see how it functions, to, you know, get through those mechanisms.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

Then, you know, then changes could be happening. I would wonder if first quarter next year is going to be the beginning of shakeup.

[Paul Thurrott]

I think we're going to see because we've just seen murmurs of this. They're going to redo the original Halo. Of course they are. Right. It's almost certainly going to be on PlayStation. Right. It has to be. I mean, and that's going to really upset people, but it has to be. Right? It has to be. I think this is not based on anything, but I think they need to bring more of their IP to mobile directly. Like not a Halo like Game on Mobile, but Halo on Mobile. Right. Actual Halo. And I don't know that there's no. There's been no indication that some studio that Activision owned had some secret title that was going to be amazing or that Microsoft bought them for that reason. But I think part of it was obviously just the inertia and momentum of their successful franchises. The ability to get it in road in mobile and then to use those assets, for lack of a better term, to help them bring their existing IP to mobile or to other platforms as well. Right. They're getting that kind of expertise and.

[Richard Campbell]

We are just noticing. Chocolate milk. They're saying console gaming is guiding. Meh. It's like we're due for new hardware, except that there's no justification for new hardware. There are so few games that press against the limits of the current generation consoles because it simply costs too much. So you have to make a multibillion dollar title to spend the money it takes to press against the limits of those machines.

[Paul Thurrott]

One of the things that came out and all that leaked stuff about Xbox about a year ago, 15 months ago, whatever it was, was this notion that they wanted the next at the time, wanted the next console to be arm base.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

And if they can pull that off, there is an Interesting thing there because it opens up a handful of things. One is obviously a more efficient console. Consoles right now are like nuclear reactors sucking down energy. Right. They're. They're horrible. So that would be interesting. I think that Microsoft, with their whole developer base can pull off this thing where it benefits Windows as well, specifically Windows and arm, where developers can create a game for the Xbox platform, if you will, and thus make it easier for those games.

[Richard Campbell]

It's also Microsoft, if Uncle Satya rolls it out, he can simply say, everyone, thou shalt all make ARM versions for Windows of all of these games compiling.

[Paul Thurrott]

But it has to be ready. That's the thing. So we'll see. I think there's a mobile play here too, which Microsoft has never bitten on. That either literally is a portable Xbox or you want to say Stream Deck, a Steam Deck type thing, which is actually a PC, obviously.

[Richard Campbell]

But you're hinting at the bigger issue here, which is we're at a sea change in game development. We're at the early stages with this next generation of generative AI and a new piece of hardware is a two year development cycle and a five year production commit. You can't make that commitment right now.

[Paul Thurrott]

You need to wait. That commitment already had to have been made. That is kind of the point. Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

And you've just been disrupted like anything you came up with two years ago. If they've done that, and maybe they have, you got to check it out.

[Paul Thurrott]

Well, we don't know.

[Richard Campbell]

We don't know because it doesn't have an MP unit.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, yeah, right, right.

[Richard Campbell]

I mean that truly contemporary gaming machine. Yes, arm, yes, next generation gpu, but also an npu, of course.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. But at the time of the leak, if I remember correctly, that decision to go ARM or not had already would have already occurred. It's just we got a leak that was a slice in time from previous to that, so we don't know. I mean, there's been no hint outside of this of what direction that might go or when it could happen, whatever, other than, you know, Sarah Bond kind of vaguely saying the next one's gonna blow your socks off, however she put it.

[Richard Campbell]

But there's also a strong case for get out of hardware, put out a reference design. Yes, everybody make these will make a for everything.

[Paul Thurrott]

They desperately want that. But they also understand that that might be the bridge too far for their user base today, that they have to get there in baby steps. Like in the same way that this Call of Duty release, which I'm going to talk about a little Bit feels like it always did. And it's kind of a proof point, like, see, we're not going to screw this up. Like, we're going to. This is, you know, this is going to. It's going to be the thing you always wanted in or the thing you wanted again a year later, I guess, because it's literally the same thing every year. We didn't screw it up, right? It's the. We did a good job with Mojang and Minecraft. We did a good job with, with GitHub, you know, like, we're going to do a good job with this, like, and kind of make that proof point and then we can get to the next step, which is going to be this thing, which I just, in my own experience has been very difficult, convincing this fan base whose lives are all based around the console that, like, you.

[Richard Campbell]

Know, this doesn't mean the consoles won't still exist. It's just they'll be sold by Acer and a half a dozen other companies, right? Yeah, but they'll all run all you want. You'll buy whatever console you want. It has the game you want on it. But what if every console has the game you want on it?

[Paul Thurrott]

Here's the thing. So if you think about the PC space, how it's been for decades, right? What you get is this range of capabilities and different companies competing with each other and trying to outdo each other in whatever ways, right? And so there are ways you, as a volume PC maker can save money on components. There's a way if you go with amd, like your laptop gets really good graphics capabilities or whatever it might be. The thing that's kind of unique about ARM that I've noticed this past summer is like, these laptops are all the same. Like, they're all the same and they're the same in a good way, right? They all get really good battery life, the performance is incredible. The efficiency is off the charts. Like, the reliability is better. Like, the whole thing is really good. And that speaks to me of what needs to happen if. And I'm just making this up again, it's not based on anything but this notion that Microsoft could farm out the hardware as they do in the PC space. You almost need that platform to make it work because otherwise you're just selling them, you know, Today's devices are based on AMD, by the way. Same thing with PlayStation, actually. You're basically giving them what is in effect, I guess, a reference board or something and saying, well, just build your fun around it and do whatever you want. But. Well.

[Richard Campbell]

And the upside to the way consoles are done is that that hardware is several years old, which means that a current generation or next generation ARM set should be able to emulate it at full bore. So you get your game compatibility, you can move forward with contemporary games that way. But the bigger issue to me will be how do you reduce the team size and still get to all of the graphic features, all of the asset creation, so forth. And that's where the generative AI play comes in. That we now can generate a lot more of that content so that the machines are always pressed to their limits and you are getting maximum resolution, maximum assets because they're generated on demand.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep. And we'll see. All I have is this paragraph of text from Sachin Adela. Allegedly. That doesn't say a lot, but it really got me thinking. We're coming off a pretty tough year.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

I feel like a lot of this is holding pattern stuff that might be related to ARM slash AI waiting.

[Richard Campbell]

My friends that are in the gaming industry are all fairly terrified. They've had a bunch of layoffs. They've had. And more importantly, it's silence. There's not a lot of new games being initiated and I think it's because we're in the midst of a retooling of how games are made. Because of generative AI.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep.

[Richard Campbell]

And you know me, I'm an AI cynic. Like I push hard on this stuff. But yeah, when you, you don't need precision for games.

[Paul Thurrott]

Well, you don't have to worry about hallucinations. They're making up stories.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, it's already made up story. You're good.

[Paul Thurrott]

It's already crazy. This will be perfect for Nintendo. It's like a purple mushroom.

[Richard Campbell]

But the costs associated with making this content are massive. And you have to make these hundred million dollar plus bets a year before you make a dollar.

[Paul Thurrott]

Xbox went from Acceleron X86 to PowerPC back to I guess X64 at this time. Over two gens now. Each platform in sequence powerful enough to emulate the previous generator version we've just seen. Arguably, maybe inarguably the biggest. One of the biggest accomplishments with this latest Snapdragon X Elite chipset from Qualcomm is its emulation.

[Richard Campbell]

There's a window here.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep. So that it seems lining up to.

[Richard Campbell]

Me that's only taking, taking care of the old things. The question is, can you make a new game that people are going to care about enough to drop 500 bucks.

[Paul Thurrott]

As long as it's called hello Richard. Yes, perhaps, but only, you know, I don't know. Yeah. So again just there's not a lot of. I want to be clear about. I hope I was clear as I spoke or as we spoke to where most of this is speculation. Just wondering because it doesn't make sense in a way that Microsoft would come out with these console refreshes they are now selling that are, you know, I mean they're fine for what they are but at a time when Sony is putting out a PS5 Pro which admittedly is going to sell 17 or 18 units, it's not like it's going to go gangbusters.

[Richard Campbell]

No, no. But they did raise it. But again it's a piece of art. Right. It's also a holding pattern machine.

[Paul Thurrott]

Oh yeah, yeah. It's current gen, I mean. Yep. But you know, they did Xbox One was this. Well, an Xbox 362, but I would say even more so. Xbox One is an example of an Xbox generation where they kept constantly revved on the hardware and not just for cost reduction, although that's always part of it. Going from the original tank to the Xbox One S to the X with this kind of steady ladder of technical improvements and you know, we're, I guess the new one's a little less inefficient. There's really not a lot going on there.

[Richard Campbell]

But none of these decisions were Uncle Satch's and now that it's Uncle Satch's call, he could easily say this is a low margin business and we are not going to be in it. Go make an ecosystem that will take that risk. And we now own enough game brands to guarantee a sufficient number of games for the entire ecosystem.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yes. Right.

[Richard Campbell]

That's the power they have.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. On that note, it is sort of mission accomplished in the sense that they do have a wide body of game successful games and game franchises to work on.

[Richard Campbell]

They get to pick what consoles succeed if they're game, if that. If that suite of games comes to that console, that console succeeds. If they don't, they doesn't now that they would ever not go. But the point being they, they now hold gravity over the whole market that way.

[Paul Thurrott]

Right. I just wanted to quickly go through this because I have not, I should say now, I had not played Call of Duty in almost two years and how do you feel? Latest game is now available on day one. Right. On PC or PC. Game Pass. Game Pass ultimate, including cloud gaming, which is the streaming service. Laurent, who writes the [e-mail] was telling me that he had played briefly last Friday and said honestly he was surprised by how good the performance was over the cloud gaming, the streaming part of it. Granted he has a 1 gigabit whatever.

[Richard Campbell]

Connect or symmetrical fiber.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, it's not quite symmetrical, it's like 1 over 700 but it's very good. I have a pretty fast connection here, but it's still slower on the uplink part than it is on download. But I decided to give it a try. So I will say I was surprised to discover the single player campaign is playable, legitimately playable. And that gave me the inspiration to try playing it on cloud streaming, which is. Unplayable is a strong word. But I. Because I played three or four games and I finally like. I finally got like a positive KD and I kind of quit but I got destroyed the first two games I mentioned.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, it's just like you had an urge to be teabagged. Is that why you went in there?

[Paul Thurrott]

It was pretty bad. I hadn't been punched in the face in a while.

[Richard Campbell]

You've been smacked by 14 year olds lately.

[Paul Thurrott]

So that was. Yeah, that wasn't that fun. But that inspired me to install the game on that AMD based laptop I was talking about. So I have to say. So this is the latest. This is the Zen 5. Right. This is a higher end chip. It's a. Off the top of my head I'm going to get the name wrong, but it's a Ryzen AI whatever. The highest 7 or 9 series HX like nice, like with the, you know, really nice integrated graphics. Yeah, this thing runs Call of Duty multiplayer, the latest game at 120 frames per second at resolution. Awesome.

[Richard Campbell]

So it's only latency that is the issue. And now.

[Paul Thurrott]

No, no, this is now I've installed it and I'm playing it on the now. There's no latency issue. I won the first game I played. I have a positive kd again like it like nothing happened. So I played four or five games and that experience was off the charts.

[Richard Campbell]

Hardware makes the player, Is that what you're saying?

[Leo Laporte]

I think you're saying that.

[Paul Thurrott]

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that the hardware allows the good players best character characteristics to come out. Most obviously that even a good player would be hampered by bad lag and latency.

[Leo Laporte]

He's awesome. Almost halfway to the master race now.

[Richard Campbell]

There you go.

[Leo Laporte]

We're making some progress.

[Paul Thurrott]

Well, but here's the thing actually. I mean I have it here. I'm just going to show you this laptop, because it is unexceptional looking thumbnail underway. It is just a silver nothing. Nothing.

[Richard Campbell]

Just an hp.

[Paul Thurrott]

You would see this on a plane and you wouldn't look twice. But I'm telling you, this thing is unbelievable.

[Richard Campbell]

This makes me a Call of Duty God.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, well, no, it doesn't make me. It allows me a Call of Duty God to fully express myself in the game.

[Richard Campbell]

You do need a silver Lemay shirt, I think.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

Call of Duty God thing.

[Paul Thurrott]

I'm just saying. Yikes. Like, pretty good. So I. But maybe more to the point, I have been very critical of cloud gaming because I've gone in, you know, many times back when Google Stadia was a thing I could play. I think it was probably doom 2016 at the time. Successfully on that platform. But not on. Well, that wasn't available. I'm sorry. No, it was. I'm sorry. Yeah, but not on. Whatever the Doom game was at the time, right on cloud gaming, it just. The lag was too much. It was bad. And I know Microsoft is throwing more resources at it now and trying to, you know, they want this to take off and work and they did something right. I mean, the, the single player experience is playable. I mean, I know that sounds silly, of course. That should be.

[Richard Campbell]

That's what you want.

[Paul Thurrott]

But it worked online play, you know, you know, it's not so much, but I got in there, you know, it was okay. So that's good stuff. And then the laptop review, sometime within the next week, I'll have that. It's. It's overwhelming you.

[Richard Campbell]

Do you love it?

[Leo Laporte]

Is it Meteor Lake? What is the.

[Paul Thurrott]

No, this is the AMD Zen 5s, so.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, and is it an AMD discrete graphics card?

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, well, it's. No, it's. It's. They call it something else. It's integrated graphics, but it's. Let me look at it.

[Leo Laporte]

It's not a Radeon. It's something.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, it's AMD Ryzen AI 9HX375. Yeah, that's Radeon 890M graphics.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, I would, I would. And how much was that little. Well, you're going to have, by the.

[Paul Thurrott]

Way, I just looked at. So you can get it right now on sale for under a thousand dollars.

[Richard Campbell]

I would have said 1200 all day long.

[Paul Thurrott]

Oh, dear God.

[Richard Campbell]

1512.

[Leo Laporte]

And if you saw what I paid for that Mac Mini.

[Richard Campbell]

I know. It's a good hat upgrade, though, leo.

[Leo Laporte]

I know.

[Paul Thurrott]

32 gigs of Ram. Are you trying to sell something, Leo?

[Leo Laporte]

What's going on this is a real Panama hat. And as all real Panama hats are, it was. It's from Ecuador. Seriously? That's where Panama hats come from? Confusingly. Ecuador.

[Richard Campbell]

Nice.

[Leo Laporte]

So I got this when I was down visiting Machu. Not Machu Picchu, the Galapagos.

[Richard Campbell]

Galapagos. I don't know if I like this home experience thing they're trying to do here. It sure seems like. Just let me show you new ads.

[Paul Thurrott]

I know. I saw this, and my heart dropped because I thought it was the Xbox console interface. And then I realized it was for the PC and I was like, who cares? Whatever.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, in the home experience. It's about time.

[Richard Campbell]

Welcome to the home experience. We haven't shown you enough ads yet.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

Where will the ads go?

[Paul Thurrott]

I know you want to play a game, but we'd like to buy something else first.

[Richard Campbell]

Yes.

[Paul Thurrott]

Well, the good thing about.

[Leo Laporte]

What am I seeing up here in the corner? Download Microsoft Edge mobile app.

[Paul Thurrott]

Why?

[Leo Laporte]

I'm on a laptop.

[Paul Thurrott]

I just.

[Leo Laporte]

What are you talking about?

[Paul Thurrott]

The nice thing about the Xbox app on Windows is that you don't need it. It's not like, you know, when you don't. It doesn't have to launch. Like, it could be. It's going to be there in the background or whatever, but when you install games, they just go into the start menu. You can just launch the games. It doesn't get in your way too. Too much.

[Richard Campbell]

Good.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. But anyway, this is what I use, the. What do you call it, the game bar to throw up the frames per second count. I could watch that and.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, that's neat.

[Paul Thurrott]

Locally installed on that laptop, man, it was like 120, 130 frames per second. And I'm like, you got to be kidding me. On multiplayer, like, that's pretty good.

[Richard Campbell]

And you snipe at 360s when you're.

[Paul Thurrott]

Watching the single player cinematic, you know, sequences. The frame rate is like 700, you know, some stupid. Because it's not really playing. You know, it's not. You're not playing a. It's just like, stupid. Like, it's. It's. It's unbelievable how well this thing works.

[Leo Laporte]

So your review is coming up?

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, it should be pretty soon. I was waiting to. I went. I had put some other. I played some other games on here. Similar results, but because Call of Duty, I belatedly. I should have thought of this last Friday. But when I. The other day, I was like, wait a minute, I got to install this game, you know, So I was surprised by how good it was. I had Pretty good results this past summer with that little. Remember the $700 IdeaPad running the previous gen AMD stuff again, integrated graphics. But this is. This is much better than I thought it was going to be. It's kind of interesting, by the way.

[Leo Laporte]

I didn't realize it. Happy birthday, Paul. Yesterday was your birthday. Thank you, Christian, for filling me in.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, I'm old enough that I don't really.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, I know what you mean.

[Richard Campbell]

You don't know which birthday it is anyway.

[Paul Thurrott]

Well, people, if you were to ask me, like, how old are you? I'd be like, really, what year? Like, I don't, you know, just hold.

[Leo Laporte]

Up how many fingers?

[Richard Campbell]

That's the.

[Paul Thurrott]

I don't have that many fingers. That's the problem. It looks like the Microsoft results might be out.

[Leo Laporte]

Well, while you're scanning those, why don't you feed it to some AI and get some summary points? You could give it Apple Intelligence. They probably do.

[Paul Thurrott]

Maybe not. I don't know.

[Leo Laporte]

Don't they wait till the market close? Well, it would be. Market closes.

[Paul Thurrott]

It's supposed to be 13 minutes ago.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

A while from now, but I don't know. We'll see.

[Richard Campbell]

They usually wait till you finish your show like that. Clearly they're watching.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

This episode of Windows Weekly brought to you by Melissa. I'm gonna leave the hat on for Melissa because they got some class. The fabulous Trusted Data Quality Expert. They've been there since 1985, longer than we have with Melissa's launch of their new address validation app in the Shopify App Store. I mean, this is kind of complicated. So if you're a Shopify plus merchant, you now can use a Melissa address validation app directly from the address expert. That means when customers are entering their addresses, when you're mailing stuff, the address will be correct. No typos. Key features of the Melissa address validation app include real time address validation. As one would expect, customers are immediately notified they're in their store, right? Doing the shop pay. They're immediately notified if the address they enter contains errors or needs correction, which is great for you. It eliminates shipping delays, reduces return rates. You know, you know, you want to get the goods and services to your customers and you want the right address. This helps them do that. It also has global reach. The app validates addresses in over 240 countries and territories, which I think is pretty much all of them, standardizing them according to local postal regulations. That's cool, too. It's got enhanced address correction even if Google Auto Suggestion is enabled. Melissa's App can ignore it and correct and standardize addresses, adding missing components like postal codes, ensuring compliance with local formatting rules. Ignore is not a good word. Enhances it right? Make sure it's right. It's CAS and SERP certified. The address engine is certified by the United States Postal Service and Canada Post, which means your validation and North American addresses are right on. You can get smart alerts which will provide a warning on the thank you page as your customer is checking out if there's a potential issue with the shipping address means even at that late stage, customers can update the information before the order is processed. Shopify plus merchants can easily install the Melissa address validation app to improve customer satisfaction and avoid the costs associated with returns and redeliveries. And of course, of course, in this respect and everything else you do with Melissa, you get secure encryption for all file transfers and an information security ecosystem built on the ISO 27001 framework. You get adherence to GDPR policies. You get SoC2 compliance, of course, needs goes without saying, Melissa's the best you can get started right now. You can use it on prem. You can use it in the cloud. They have a secure FTP server. You can upload and download contact lists, supplier lists, address lists too. And if you want to try the API, you can get started with 1000 records clean for free right now just go to melissa.comtwit you can do it all in the browser. M E L I S A melissa.com Twitter we thank them so much for their support and for doing such a great job over the last few decades. Melissa.com TWIT if Paul won't say, why should she? Why should Melissa?

[Paul Thurrott]

So just real. I don't want to eat into eat into. But I just. Real quick, I'm just looking at this. So yeah, so they did release this.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh good.

[Paul Thurrott]

Okay. It's weird. It's not on their main investor set or it wasn't when I first looked.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, yeah. What's the deal?

[Paul Thurrott]

Very similar to Google. So net income 24.7 billion on revenues of almost 66 billion.

[Richard Campbell]

Oh wow.

[Paul Thurrott]

Both up low double digits. 11 60%.

[Leo Laporte]

Wait, the net was 27 billion for a quarter.

[Paul Thurrott]

It's a high margin.

[Richard Campbell]

Software 27 on 66. So Google was 24 and 68, something like that.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, they're very close. It's hard looking at this quickly, but two things. Well, a couple things to stand out. PC revenue to Windows is only up 2%. Xbox content and services revenue up 61% because, you know, 53 points of which is Activision, Xbox, where I gotta find the different places. Xbox hardware revenue declined 29%. It's old.

[Leo Laporte]

Nobody's gonna buy it.

[Paul Thurrott]

It's not doing good. The thing, I think it's this quarter they're changing the way that they report their earnings and so they're doing. They're recasting earnings each quarter until the end of the fiscal year so that things line up. And I thought it was going to be this quarter where we were going to see a drop off in revenues in more personal computing, the part of the business that has Windows and Xbox and Surface, because they were going to pull out commercial revenue and put it into Microsoft360. But I don't really see that it is lower. I'm trying to find where I can find that. If you look at the three big business units, more personal computing is the smallest. It always is 13 billion. It's been roughly 15, 16 for the past few quarters. So if that does represent that drop off, it's not as big as I would have expected. Intelligent cloud is. Well, there you go. This is what happened. Okay. So intelligent cloud, which has been their biggest business unit, is now their second biggest business unit, 24.1 billion. And their biggest is the productivity business processes, which is Microsoft 365, primarily 28.3 billion. So that must be it. It must be the. I'm going to have to go through it. And of course, look at their post article.

[Leo Laporte]

It's teams, obviously.

[Paul Thurrott]

It's definitely teams. It's the teams consumer specifically. Yeah. So we'll look at this in more in depth next week when I have a chance to really go through it. Plus they're going to have that call, you know, which they have every year or every quarter. So which hasn't happened yet. And you know, we'll get there anyway. That's. That just happened.

[Leo Laporte]

Wow. All right.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, there you go. All right.

[Leo Laporte]

In other words, good news for Microsoft. Did they. Do they separate out AI revenue or costs or.

[Paul Thurrott]

No, but they do talk about how much they spend. So I'm going to look at that too. Like, you know, the cost of AI, so to speak, the investment that they make.

[Leo Laporte]

You know, when you make $27 billion, $9 billion a month, you probably can afford a little AI.

[Paul Thurrott]

You can, but investors aren't going to put up with that forever. Right.

[Richard Campbell]

At some point you want to have returns.

[Leo Laporte]

But even if it cost a billion dollars a month.

[Paul Thurrott]

Sure.

[Richard Campbell]

If it's making five, what do you care?

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

If it is making five. Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

I don't think it's making anything yet.

[Leo Laporte]

Right, well, that's the thing. It's investing for the future. It's all upside from here.

[Paul Thurrott]

I call that throwing away money or flushing it down the toilet.

[Richard Campbell]

But yeah, I mean, you're renting a nuclear. Re.

[Paul Thurrott]

Different terms. I mean, whatever. We could.

[Leo Laporte]

I told that when I bought this hat. It's all upside.

[Paul Thurrott]

It's all upside. It paid for itself. That's how I would have said it.

[Richard Campbell]

Power. Things are really interesting factor on this. We got to dig into further.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, huge expense.

[Richard Campbell]

Yes, well, and they. I'm going to digress. And we should get to the back.

[Leo Laporte]

Now we got Mr. Nuclear. Yeah, not nuclear. Mr. Nuclear. Okay, let's get it straight.

[Richard Campbell]

It's clear.

[Leo Laporte]

I think Tim Waltz, I hate to say it, I think he said nuclear.

[Paul Thurrott]

You know what? I'm okay with it. He's speaking to the people.

[Leo Laporte]

He's a. He's a man of the people.

[Paul Thurrott]

Man. These people. People.

[Leo Laporte]

He's a man of the people. We like that. All right, let's do our tips of the week.

[Paul Thurrott]

Just quickly, when I get back from Mexico, I'm going to take another look at the Raspberry PI. This is starting to get interesting again. I've always loved this part of the market. I know that Raspberry PI started as an educational thing. That's a big part. It's huge. It's great. I'm not dumping on that, but I think this.

[Leo Laporte]

I got mine right.

[Paul Thurrott]

It's kind of an enthusiast aspect of the PC market that we don't really see in the same way we did in the early days when we called them home computers and people would write their own programs and. And so just in the past week they've started selling SSDs, which is hilarious, right? Because typically the storage on these devices is SD based. And they also have now selling a faster. They call it an AI kit, but it's a hat that sits on top, connects to the, you know, to the main board. And I don't remember the exact numbers, but the original one was maybe 13 tops, something like that. And I want to say this one is 28 top something still expensively, 26 stops. So you can experiment with this with AI. And this is really cool. I love Raspberry PI. It's just something I've never. I don't need it. But it might be a time to take a look at this thing again. And by the way, this is a computer that could run like full blown windows if they just let it well.

[Richard Campbell]

And there's plenty of versions of Raspberry PI's now that don't use SD at all that actually have EMMC and like better options for that.

[Leo Laporte]

Sure.

[Richard Campbell]

So this one you care about should not have an sd.

[Leo Laporte]

This boots off, you know, that mini Flash, whatever you call it.

[Richard Campbell]

No, it's an SD card. Yeah, it's a micro sd.

[Leo Laporte]

Micro sd, yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

But you saying you could have better memory if you.

[Richard Campbell]

If you actually want to reliable one, you don't rely on sds.

[Paul Thurrott]

It's.

[Leo Laporte]

So how would you do it? Via usb?

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, they've got USB ports.

[Leo Laporte]

Boot off usb.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, they usually have an SD as well, but you use that to do updates and things. And you. But your main operating platform is something more reliable than an SD, SD.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, the SD that's. It's. This one's booting off of that.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah. And that's its main operating drive. And so. Yeah, you want better storage than that.

[Paul Thurrott]

If you.

[Leo Laporte]

Okay. And so how would I do that though?

[Richard Campbell]

Well, you'd need a different unit. You need one of the. One of the SM styles. Like there's different formats that use different storage.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

Obviously. I got a couple pie holes and I used to. My home assistant is running dedicated hardware. She doesn't use any sd. But since the new mast is up in the corner of the property, I'm going to be adding an ADS B antenna and an AIs antenna and those actually under the hood. They're Raspberry PIs. So they're literally edge compute devices for tracking ships and planes and things.

[Leo Laporte]

So cool. Yeah, I just got it just because it's cool and it's cheap and I just want it and I don't have it. It's not connected to anything.

[Paul Thurrott]

There is the Wayland Display engine Now instead of X10 or whatever, that PDP.

[Leo Laporte]

Is a Raspberry PI.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, sure.

[Leo Laporte]

PDP 11.

[Paul Thurrott]

This is a couple years ago now, but I gave my friend a Raspberry PI, whatever it was at the time. 4 Probably inside a little case that looked like an Amiga 500 which just running an Amiga emulator in every game ever made, you know.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, they're fantastic. And they. Yeah, I find them as just great edge devices. They're reliable as long as you don't rely on an SD card.

[Leo Laporte]

So out of sync in our discord says The Raspberry PI 5 has a PCIe connector. I have no idea.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, that's what I. That's what I just said.

[Leo Laporte]

Did you just say that. Is that on the board? Is that. Why I don't.

[Paul Thurrott]

But they. They connected. They. They now sell their own ss. Like nv.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah. They have a hat. Yeah, the name. So. But that's on the board. I. So mine's in a case right now. So I don't. I wouldn't see it.

[Paul Thurrott]

I have to.

[Richard Campbell]

And is that a five or is it a four?

[Leo Laporte]

It's the latest. Whatever the new one is a five. Yeah, yeah. You could tell because it has USB C to HDMI ports.

[Paul Thurrott]

I mean that, you know, I mean, this thing has evolved. Like in the beginning you had to be connected with ethernet or get a card or whatever. US USB connector. And now it's just, you know, the stuff gets built in, it gets better, the processors get better. Obviously, it's neat, it's fun.

[Leo Laporte]

Very happy.

[Paul Thurrott]

I think we're missing this in the PC space these days, you know.

[Leo Laporte]

Well, like I said, it's about as fast as the Snapdragon dev kit and.

[Paul Thurrott]

A little bit smaller.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, a little bit smaller.

[Leo Laporte]

I'm happy.

[Richard Campbell]

And the FCC is mad at it.

[Leo Laporte]

And it has a working HDMI port which is 2. 2.

[Richard Campbell]

Wow.

[Leo Laporte]

Which is, you know, I'm tired of.

[Paul Thurrott]

You guys crapping on it. I don't know what's happening here.

[Leo Laporte]

Okay, so. Yes, take a look. I agree with you. Take a look at the Raspberry PI. Take a look at it.

[Paul Thurrott]

And then I just, for some reason, for many weeks happen and I've got nothing for Linappic. And this week I had like 8, 9 or 10. So I'm just not going to.

[Leo Laporte]

They're all browsers.

[Richard Campbell]

They're all browsers.

[Paul Thurrott]

A lot of them are browsers. So Chrome just came out with the major release. This awesome stuff going on there with. They call it personalizing performance, but you should look at that if you're using Chrome. It's definitely very interesting. Vivaldi brand new interface in their new version seven. Opera, I think it was last week. Did the release on Desktop now have new versions on iOS and Android that do, among other things, the stuff you would want to do on a phone, like image recognition using AI for free through Aria. So that's nice. And then Firefox 132 just came out, maybe even today, yesterday, whenever. And there's this random Windows only feature that I'm curious. I looked this up. I couldn't find anything. Native Support for Microsoft PlayReady encrypted media playback, which sounds like something from the 2005s or whatever. Yeah, I don't know what that means, but okay. I guess they didn't list any of the sites that actually use this technology. So I don't know, maybe if you're on Windows and go to Netflix. It still uses. I have no idea, but kind of interesting. Adobe Fresco, which is like a PC paintbrush type app, but modern, designed for computers or an iPad that has a pen or like a smart pen. Used to be mostly free and there was some premium stuff they had under a subscription, is now totally free. So you might as well take a look at that. ProtonVPN is now, if you have to pay, have a paid subscription. But it works. There's an Apple TV app. So actually I just installed that today, so I'm using that on my Apple TV here in Mexico. And then I don't know anything about this particular one and I don't quite get it, but Fantastical Calendar is apparently a really well regarded standalone calendar app on Mac. And I want to say iOS probably. There's a version available for Windows now as well. So there you go. I think I did that in about a minute.

[Leo Laporte]

I use Fantastic on the Mac and you do.

[Paul Thurrott]

Interesting.

[Richard Campbell]

Wow. Now you have it on Windows as well.

[Leo Laporte]

You know, honestly, operating systems come with their own calendars and probably for most people that's fine.

[Richard Campbell]

Sufficient.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah. Fantastical. It's more about ui. Nobody wants to meet with me, so I don't have any of that meeting.

[Richard Campbell]

I don't know how much time you spend in your Calendar app either.

[Leo Laporte]

Right, right. Mostly it's just I want to enter stuff fast.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

And then I want to. Let me know.

[Paul Thurrott]

Tell me when Something's happening. Right. 30 minutes. Right. That's how I use.

[Leo Laporte]

That's all I need. Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah. When? Yeah. When the garbage has to be taken out.

[Paul Thurrott]

My wife's on my calendar, so that can be irritating.

[Leo Laporte]

The folks who do Fantastical are up to now. An Apple. Right.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

Well, I don't know if you heard, but Windows is like the next big thing. So is it going gangbusters?

[Leo Laporte]

You know, I think this is a real vote of confidence for the future of Windows.

[Paul Thurrott]

I mean, IA writers on Windows. I mean, it's just the whole world's going Windows. It's crazy.

[Leo Laporte]

It's amazing. Is it in the store, this fantastical?

[Paul Thurrott]

I have no idea.

[Leo Laporte]

In the store.

[Paul Thurrott]

Of course it is.

[Leo Laporte]

I'm on the rot dot com.

[Paul Thurrott]

Anything could be in a. I didn't write the article. I did.

[Richard Campbell]

I don't.

[Leo Laporte]

I know nothing. I disavow all knowledge of this.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. I'm not even sure this is real. I could have just said words that are just completely made up.

[Leo Laporte]

There it is. From Flexibits.

[Paul Thurrott]

There you go.

[Leo Laporte]

I have a subscription to Flexibits for the Mac. I guess it would apply to this all check.

[Paul Thurrott]

Is this all they make? Do they make other things?

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, they have. Fantastic. They have Card Hop, which is a contact manager that you don't use as well. And they have their icon of no Flexibits. They have other stuff. Yeah, It's a good little company.

[Paul Thurrott]

Very.

[Leo Laporte]

But it's. But it's like a Mac company. It's weird.

[Paul Thurrott]

I know. Which makes them immediately suspicious, frankly.

[Richard Campbell]

What are you up to?

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, what's going on here?

[Leo Laporte]

What's the thinking here? Jake's jigs. It looks just like Flex. Fantastic. Hell on the.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. How's that happen?

[Leo Laporte]

Is there some new cross platform?

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, it's called Swift. Well, you like Arc? Arc is written in sword Swift those.

[Leo Laporte]

Guys use, is it? Yeah, that's right.

[Paul Thurrott]

Even on Windows.

[Leo Laporte]

I like Swift. It's a good language. I don't use it.

[Paul Thurrott]

I know, but it's not very mainstream on Windows yet.

[Richard Campbell]

No, not wildly portable across platforms.

[Leo Laporte]

Well, there's an open source Swift, so I don't care. We are going to now switch gears and talk about run as radio.

[Richard Campbell]

Mr. Richard Campbell, the update goddess herself. Aria Carly. Now Aria Hansen, Congratulations. Recently married and her third return back to my show to talk more about what's been going on with update, although specifically around updates with ARM for Windows. So we talked a bit about copilot plus PCs and just the fact is this going to eventually be just another Windows device And Aria got into that. Yes. There's a transition time here with a special version of 24H2. There's a bunch of features that will only surface if you are a Copilot plus PC which all things we've talked about here as well. And their goal is it updates exactly the same at the time when we recorded this, which was a few weeks ago and even up to today they're still not there yet. It is a battle to try and get to that point, but that's her intent. Then we dove into a bit about the insider program. Apparently there's four channels in the insider program and she ranked them in order of likely to blue screen from Canary to dev to beta to release preview.

[Leo Laporte]

In the reverse order of likely.

[Richard Campbell]

If you're really looking for a blue screen, go to Canary. It would be a great conversation as usual. There's always things going on on the update side, especially for business. They're phasing out the old update server. So that was a concern. But, yeah, Copilot plus PC just going to be a PC one of these days. It isn't yet, but it's going to be. And that's certainly where we came down to.

[Leo Laporte]

I think it's time perhaps for a little trip to Okanagan.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, we're going back. It was about three months ago that I came back from the Oakland Valley with stories of, well, not only the crisis with their wine, because they had that big freeze that killed all the grapes and they're still recovering from all that. But I had a chance to visit the Okanagan Spirits Craft Distillery, which has a visitor center in Kelowna where we were. And then further north, up above the north part of the lakes is where their main distillery is, in a place called Vernon. These are the folks that started out making because they are in fruit region. They made fruit brandies, kirsch and the likes, grappa, that kind of thing, including and vodkas and gin. But they eventually got into making whiskey as well. And while I was there, I took the opportunity to enter the lottery and the lotteries was for an opportunity to buy the Laird of the Fintry edition. And I won the opportunity to buy a bottle.

[Leo Laporte]

You won the Laird of the Fintry?

[Richard Campbell]

I was very, very lucky. And so I actually ordered two bottles. And when I got home from. From. From my travels, there they are. I got two bottles.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, it's the Laird of the Fintry.

[Richard Campbell]

Only one of these is the Lottery edition. The reason they have the lottery, it's right on the label there, is that they only make 5,000 bottles. And so I got bottles 1893.

[Leo Laporte]

That's really cool.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah. And this is a great little marketing play for a small organization like this that they only are going to produce so much. So great way to pump up your mailing list. And yeah, you had an opportunity to buy and I immediately bought. And then they fed, came back, you know, the next day and said, would you like to buy more? So I think they did say 30,000 people signed up for the lottery, but I don't know how many actually stock up, pulled the trigger. Now, again, we talked about Laird of the Finchery three months ago with their what they called the BSV pipe. So first off, Laird of the Fin Tree is actually Fintry is a location. The Fintry Delta. This is a. The set of lakes that are the Okanagan lakes have rivers running between them and there is a delta area. And the Fintry Delta was owned back in the very early 1900s by A1 captain James Cameron Dunwaters, who called himself the Laird of Fintry Delta. And he did import a private label whiskey from Scotland, which he then labeled as Laird of the Fintry. So that's got nothing to do with this, although apparently they've matched the label design.

[Leo Laporte]

I love the design.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, it's an old school, like 19, you know, 1910, 1920s style labeling. And so the one that I talked about three months ago was that BSV pipe. And that is. This is a different addition. So the following classic Scottish whiskey style. This is entirely barley and barley from British Columbia. That's part of their claim to fame. And then they do an aging for five years in American oak. And that's virgin American oak. They have other editions where they use Jack Daniel barrels, but in this case it is actually raw oak. So five years in that and then they do a finish in something else. So in the case of the BSV that we talked about last time, BSV pipe is actually a kind of port. And so they're doing a port finish. Very classic. This is actually a quail's gate fock. So Quail skate is a very popular distillery.

[Leo Laporte]

Now we are going to get taken.

[Richard Campbell]

Said that word very carefully. What is F O C H. Yes. So Quailsgate is a very well known winery in the Okanagan Valley. There's more than 100 of them. This is one in the top 10. And the FOC is a particular kind of grape. It's a French wine hybrid grape that was developed in the early 1900s. So this is a hybridization of the Vitus ripiera and the Vitus ripiteris. These were considered inferior grapes, but they're very hardy. So when you're going to grow up make wine in the colonies, these are the kinds of grapes you would take along. And it's actually named. The grape is named for Ferdinand Foch, who was the supreme allied Commander in World War I.

[Leo Laporte]

The general? Yeah, I think. Yes. Ferdinand Falk, Field Marshal Foch.

[Richard Campbell]

That's supreme Allied commander. So the grape arrived in North America in 1946, primarily on the east coast because it was tended to be growing colder areas. So in the US places like Minnesota and Ohio and Colorado, and in Canada, in Ontario and Quebec and nova Scotia and B.C. okanagan Valley. Now the funny part is it's a good grape. By the way, I've drank the wine Quailscape, one of my favorites, but it's not that popular. The French barely grow it because they're really against the hybrids, they stick strictly with Vinis Vinnera, which is the sort of classic wine grape. And to the point now where there are EU rules about what grape you're allowed to grow in these areas, Right? So in the 80s, a lot of the hybrid grapes were removed to replace with the classic grapes, right? And then. And that name, the Venice Venera, covers a huge rain. I literally looking up the names from a Brusco to the Zurfendel, which is the Austrian version of Zinfandel. This is the grape that has been made. They've literally made wine for 8,000 years. Like there is evidence of winemaking with this grape, with these kinds of grape in 6000 BC. So the fox, an odd duck. But the good thing about that grape is it depending on how you treat it, you get an array of wines and you can get these big rich wines, which is the direction that Quails Gate goes in, which makes it a good finishing barrel. It adds a lot of layer. And if you look, look at the color on this for a five year old, right? And they're not doing a chill filtration or coloring or anything. This is a lot of this has to have come from the wine. But remember, I bought two. So this was the lottery bottle, of which there was only 5,000. I got one of them. But this, this, my friends, is the cask strength.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, baby.

[Richard Campbell]

But they're both lot 11. So these, this is a weird opportunity. These are two exactly the same produced versions of whiskey. One has been cut with water to be 42%. That's the lottery edition. And this is what they call the black label casserole strength.

[Leo Laporte]

You can compare them.

[Richard Campbell]

Is it 56%?

[Leo Laporte]

Interesting.

[Richard Campbell]

What order should we drink them in?

[Leo Laporte]

I don't know, but I like this idea.

[Richard Campbell]

And by we, I mean me, because I have it.

[Leo Laporte]

But so one's cask strength, 56% alcohol.

[Richard Campbell]

And one is 42.

[Leo Laporte]

And what is the nominal strength of nominal strength?

[Richard Campbell]

So let's start with the 42 because it should have a little less cloud. And I won't pour too much because I'm gonna have to finish this to put the other one in. They use a synthetic cork. All the air just filled with whiskey. Smells so pretty. Medicinal. Like a big alcohol note up front. Oh, but nice on the mouth. And there's that fruitiness from the wine. Like, wow. You know, the fact that this was this alcohol smelling for the 42 makes me vaguely frightened of that. 56.

[Leo Laporte]

No kidding.

[Richard Campbell]

Second swallows are always better. Yeah, no, see that sort of Leathery kind of, you know, this is a beautiful. I'm not even going to finish this. I'm going to go grab another glass. Yeah, good thing I have another.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, save it. Yeah. Fortunately, you have an entire set there. He's ready. He's ready to go. So now Paul and I are just jealous as hell.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, I got two bottles here. Well, this. I did this with the Glen Morani the other days too, when we were in Poland and we had the original and then we also had the nectar Dior. So you can go crust now. I think the color on this is a little bit darker.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, it is, yeah. Look at that. It's rich looking. Yeah, definitely.

[Richard Campbell]

So, you know, because in the end, if it's 42% alcohol, what's the other 58%? It's water. Right, Right. So here we go.

[Leo Laporte]

This is the 56 one, man. Two bottles.

[Richard Campbell]

You know what? That's not even more. That's not more alcohol smelling. Granted, I've had a couple of sips already, so I'm a little tuned, but okay. Yeah, now definitely more alcohol. Like we got that sort of shot, but not mean not. Hey, you just drank a really strong. Oh, it came on later, though. Hello.

[Leo Laporte]

Okay, we're gonna wrap it up now.

[Richard Campbell]

That little bite, you know that little bite in the cheeks you get when it's.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

Little estrangement. Oh, that's good though. Boy, oh, boy, Mr. Cat. Normally you would do a cast strength first, you know, because it's kind of fill you up and then save that.

[Paul Thurrott]

Like.

[Richard Campbell]

I think I'm gonna put the 42, the lottery edition in the decanter. But they cast strength is going to sit for special occasions because that's always a fun starter. But you know, it comes to. To the sort of truth of the flavors are from the wood, they the that, the grain and that alcohol, that's, you know, pretty, pretty standard.

[Leo Laporte]

It's from the wine barrel.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, yeah, that wine barrel lifted it all up. Marshall made his thing. And I wish I'd kept a bit of that pipe back so that I could have had a little of the. Of the port finish one as well alongside.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, wouldn't that be interesting?

[Paul Thurrott]

Try those.

[Richard Campbell]

But it was entirely too tasty and somehow the bottle ended up empty. I don't know. Anyway, I. I thought that'd be fun. You know, it was great to have these waiting for me. And the fact that you can try two versions of the same is. Doesn't happen very often. So I was delighted for the opportunity you guys all got to See it. Lovely price for the lottery edition, 95 Canadian dollars. Not so sold outside of Canada. Sorry. And then the cast strength of 56% is 115 Canadian. So I think that's like 20 bucks American. No, that's not true. So about 25% less, but yeah, they don't exporters. Find a friend in B.C. who can get it for you and bring it down. You'll be delighted what you get. This is one of those little distilleries that stays under that 100,000 liters a year threshold, so they pay less tax. And so they generally only sell direct. They don't try and get into stores. They have relationships with different whiskey clubs and they do these lotteries and things. That's how they make their living. And they can keep a little bit morning money. And so a small team of people working in a little town in Vernon in a single distillery, make a living making.

[Leo Laporte]

That's cool.

[Richard Campbell]

50,000.

[Leo Laporte]

How far away is it?

[Richard Campbell]

Four hours drive from where I am.

[Paul Thurrott]

Oh.

[Leo Laporte]

So it's a bit of a. Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

Or we could, you know, hop a little local jet up there in an hour.

[Leo Laporte]

Right. The 2024 Laird of Fintry Black Label Cask strength single malt whiskey.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, with a name like that, you know, somebody had too much time on their hands. That's a big label.

[Leo Laporte]

Well, I'm glad you had this Wednesday time on your hands, folks, for joining us for the Windows Weekly program. That there is Richard Campbell, our whiskey guru. He also hosts a couple of podcasts called Run as Radio and Net Rocks. People love Net Rocks, the show you do with Carl.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, great.

[Leo Laporte]

That's a fun show, too. Two great shows. They're [e-mail] Paul Thurat is of course at therot.com t h u double r o doublegood.com his books are at leanpub.com including Windows Everywhere and the Field Guide to Windows 11. We three, we brave, we few, we gather every Wednesday morning, 11am Pacific, 2pm Eastern time. Next week we will be on standard time. So that means that we will be at 1900 UTC. So come by, you can watch us on. As I mentioned, all eight streams. Discord for the club members. YouTube, Twitch, Kick, Facebook, LinkedIn, X.com and now tick Tock, which explains the hats.

[Paul Thurrott]

Unless we get banned forever from Hat.

[Leo Laporte]

Gate, they might have known you were going to whiskey because they will block. They will. They don't. They just. They don't promote it if it's got whiskey in it.

[Richard Campbell]

Well, so next week's Tunisia. So we'll see how the bandwidth is there because Poland. Yeah, Tunisia.

[Paul Thurrott]

Wow. I mean, what are you doing?

[Richard Campbell]

Keynoting.

[Leo Laporte]

What's the conference?

[Richard Campbell]

The Tunisian developers conference. There's only one.

[Leo Laporte]

How interesting. Boy, you really get to go places.

[Richard Campbell]

Oh yeah, no, they got. They booked me a tour of Carthage. Yeah, the city that the Romans.

[Leo Laporte]

Cartago. Delinda esque.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

So we're going to.

[Paul Thurrott]

Wow.

[Richard Campbell]

Hang out in Carthage.

[Leo Laporte]

Is there much left? No, they salted it. They destroyed it.

[Paul Thurrott]

It's been salted.

[Richard Campbell]

But I mean it was a famous enough city at the time that there were carvings of the huge circular harbor and things. And the remains are still very famous.

[Paul Thurrott]

If I'm muted, it's not my fault. Can you hear me?

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, I can hear you.

[Leo Laporte]

If you want to watch this live, I invite you to do so. But I hope you will also subscribe because. Not because it costs money, but because that way we get. We get to. We can't really count the downloads on the. On the live version. So a couple of ways you can get the show, you go to Twit TV. WW Paul has a copy at his website therat.com you can go to YouTube.com there is a windows weekly channel with all the video. Great for sharing clips and so forth. But honestly, for us and probably for you, the best way to get the show. Subscribe in your favorite podcast player or as some say, follow us. That way you'll get it automatically every two. Every Wednesday rather. Did I say Tuesday? I meant Wednesday. Every Wednesday after the show has been produced. We're Wednesday at 11am Pacific, 2pm Eastern, 1900 UTC. Just to clarify that. Have a great Halloween. Do you? Do they. Do you get trick or treaters in Mexico?

[Paul Thurrott]

Yes. Oh yes, we do.

[Leo Laporte]

Okay. Do you bring down some good American candy for those youngsters?

[Paul Thurrott]

No. Candy is so readily available here. I don't even know why they want it.

[Leo Laporte]

There's lots of sweetness.

[Richard Campbell]

Why would you pay for American chocolate.

[Paul Thurrott]

When you drink Mexico, we sit in restaurants and people who walk by try to sell us candy. It's crazy.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

We had up here in the rural areas. Nobody's coming by this place but the community hall has a great party that everyone goes to. We have a blast.

[Leo Laporte]

Well, have a wonderful Halloween and good luck on election day. I hope your man wins or person.

[Richard Campbell]

We've had. We just had our provincial election and did you. We had a week of recounts. We had three districts that, that, that and vote spread was like 12 or 20 tiny.

[Leo Laporte]

Those local elections, every vote Counts.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah. And it literally swung. The incumbents got a majority by one seat.

[Leo Laporte]

Wow.

[Richard Campbell]

But only after three recounts of three important districts.

[Leo Laporte]

Holy moly.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, it was close.

[Leo Laporte]

Well, you don't have anything to worry about.

[Richard Campbell]

Well, you know. You know how much riding there was over it? None. Canadian. Come on. What do you think?

[Leo Laporte]

They're very nice. Sorry. I'm sorry. Did I step on your ballot? I'm sorry.

[Richard Campbell]

As soon as it's that close, they do a manual count of everything. You know, civilized set of procedures.

[Leo Laporte]

Civilized place up there.

[Richard Campbell]

But at least one of the two of them. Actually, the. The newcomers were ahead before the recount started. And then it flipped over.

[Leo Laporte]

They didn't declare victory, did they? They waited.

[Paul Thurrott]

No.

[Richard Campbell]

Everybody held their breath and said, let's just see how this goes. Let's be civilized.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, I like that.

[Richard Campbell]

They will be the loyal opposition.

[Leo Laporte]

That's good, too.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

I was watching a show yesterday and they said, let's do a loyalty, loyalty toast. And they all said to the king, you don't do that anymore in Canada.

[Paul Thurrott]

That doesn't sound good.

[Richard Campbell]

That being said, we do have a lieutenant governor here who basically said, you should form government now. And he's like, okay, okay. So it's part of the ritual.

[Leo Laporte]

Whatever you want. I got the mace. I got the other thing, whatever that's called. The crook. I don't know what it's called.

[Richard Campbell]

The scepter.

[Leo Laporte]

Scepter. Mason. Scepter.

[Paul Thurrott]

It has to be a scepter.

[Richard Campbell]

Yep.

[Leo Laporte]

What else? Is there anything else? Join the club. We'd love to have you. Twit TV club. Twit. And we will see you all next week, winners and dozers alike on Windows weekly. Bye bye.

[Paul Thurrott]

AT&T customers switching to T mobile has never been easier. We'll pay off your existing phone and give you a new one free.

[Leo Laporte]

All on America's largest 5G network.

[Paul Thurrott]

Visit t mobile.com carrier freedom to switch today. Pay off up to $650 via virtual prepaid MasterCard in 15 days. Free phone up to $830 via 24.

[Richard Campbell]

Monthly bill credits plus tax. Qualifying port and trade and service on go 5G next and credit required.

[Paul Thurrott]

Contact us before canceling entire account.

[Richard Campbell]

To continue bill credits or credit stop.

[Paul Thurrott]

And balance and required finance agreement is due.

[Richard Campbell]

How do you feel when you switch.

[Paul Thurrott]

To GEICO and save on your car insurance? It's like going to work on one.

[Leo Laporte]

Thursday morning and thinking to yourself, just one more day until Friday.

[Richard Campbell]

But then somebody in the elevator says, happy Fri. Yay. Then you check your phone quickly and discover today is actually Friday. So, yes. Happy Friday, random stranger in the elevator. Happy Friday indeed.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep. Switching and saving with Geico.

[Leo Laporte]

Feels just like that.

[Richard Campbell]

Get more with Geico. You've got questions.

[Paul Thurrott]

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[Leo Laporte]

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[Paul Thurrott]

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[Leo Laporte]

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[Paul Thurrott]

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[Leo Laporte]

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[Paul Thurrott]

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