WW 929: The Blue Screen of Soup - Agent Store, Oblivion Remastered, Ubuntu 25.04

Summary

Windows Weekly (Audio) – Episode WW 929: The Blue Screen of Soup - Agent Store, Oblivion Remastered, Ubuntu 25.04

Release Date: April 23, 2025

Hosts:

• Leo Laporte
• Paul Thurrott
• Richard Campbell

---

1. Windows Updates: 23H2 and 24H2

The episode begins with a discussion about the Windows 23H2 update and the anticipated release of the 24H2 preview update. Paul Thurrott expresses frustration over the repeated delays in receiving the 24H2 updates, noting a pattern where preview updates are released later than scheduled.

Notable Quote:

Paul Thurrott [02:30]: "We don't get 24H2 until a few days later. So I don't know."

Key Points:

• Windows 23H2 is expected to be similar to previous updates with no significant new features.
• The new feature of Phone Link integration within the Start menu is highlighted as a useful addition. Paul initially found the feature intrusive but has grown accustomed to its functionality.

Notable Quote:

Richard Campbell [07:25]: "At least Samsung phones aren't terrible."

2. AI Developments in Microsoft: Copilot, Agent Store, Wave Two

The conversation shifts to Microsoft's advancements in artificial intelligence, particularly focusing on the Copilot feature and the introduction of the Agent Store. Paul Thurrott delves into Microsoft's strategy of integrating AI into various applications and services, emphasizing the shift towards personalized and agentic AI tools.

Notable Quote:

Paul Thurrott [40:17]: "This is part of their push towards making Copilot agents that can interact with various online services seamlessly."

Key Points:

• Copilot Wave Two: Microsoft is enhancing Copilot with reasoning capabilities and agentic properties, introducing tools like the researcher and analyst tools.
• Agent Store: A marketplace for Copilot agents that can integrate with online services, aiming to provide customizable AI assistants for various tasks.
• Personalization: Microsoft's approach includes AI remembering user interactions to provide a more tailored experience, raising potential privacy concerns.

Notable Quote:

Richard Campbell [43:48]: "You're not trying to index your whole life. You're picking pieces that you want to make available in different contexts."

3. Blue Screen of Death Transformation: "Blue Screen of Soup"

Microsoft is reportedly experimenting with changing the traditional Blue Screen of Death (BSOD) to a more user-friendly "Blue Screen of Soup" in the Insider Canary builds. Paul Thurrott shares his personal experience encountering this new error screen while attempting to install Ubuntu natively on a Surface laptop.

Notable Quote:

Paul Thurrott [24:42]: "It's not a happy error. It's a serious punch in the mouth."

Key Points:

• The new BSOD design aims to align with Windows 11's aesthetic but has not significantly altered functionality.
• The inclusion of a QR code intended to direct users to a knowledge base article about the error, though its effectiveness remains questionable.
• Richard Campbell recounts a breach incident related to a beta software bug, adding context to the frustrations expressed with the BSOD experience.

Notable Quote:

Leo Laporte [16:28]: "If it said, you know, this thing happened because of the last hotfix and you can undo that, that might be of use."

4. Ubuntu 25.04 Release: Enhanced ARM and BitLocker Support

The hosts discuss the release of Ubuntu 25.04, highlighting significant updates such as native ARM64 support and integrated BitLocker compatibility. These enhancements aim to simplify dual-boot configurations and improve security features for users integrating Ubuntu with Windows systems.

Notable Quote:

Paul Thurrott [19:12]: "They wanted to allow dual-boot setups without having to decrypt the disk first."

Key Points:

• Native ARM64 Support: Extends Ubuntu's compatibility with ARM-based devices, reflecting the growing trend of ARM architecture in personal computing.
• BitLocker Integration: Facilitates seamless dual-boot installations by recognizing BitLocker-encrypted drives, eliminating the need for manual decryption and re-encryption processes.

5. Security Breach Incident Involving Richard Campbell

Richard Campbell shares an incident where a software bug in a recently deployed update within Azure tenants led to the erroneous marking of numerous accounts as leaked. This false alarm caused significant stress among administrators, highlighting vulnerabilities in automated security systems.

Notable Quote:

Richard Campbell [27:02]: "They were deploying software on a Friday evening, and within seconds, it started marking accounts as leaked."

Key Points:

• The breach was triggered by faulty token generation in a software update, leading to false positives in security alerts.
• Microsoft promptly addressed the issue by invalidating the compromised tokens, advising affected users to reset their passwords.
• The incident underscores the challenges of maintaining robust security measures in large-scale enterprise environments.

6. Xbox Gaming News: Oblivion Remastered

In the Xbox segment, the hosts cover the remastered release of "The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion." The revamped version features enhanced graphics powered by Unreal Engine 5 and is now available on Xbox Series X|S, PlayStation 5, PC, and Game Pass. The update is expected to resonate with a nostalgic audience while attracting new players with its modern visuals and performance improvements.

Notable Quote:

Paul Thurrott [94:03]: "It looks awesome. It was a cool story because the people worked on getting it right."

Key Points:

• Graphics Enhancement: Utilizes Unreal Engine 5 to provide a visually stunning experience, modernizing the classic RPG.
• Wide Availability: Released across multiple platforms, including integration with Game Pass, broadening its accessibility.
• Development Story: The remastering process involved collaboration with enthusiasts who aimed to preserve the game's legacy while updating its technical aspects.

7. Antitrust Discussions: Microsoft vs. Big Tech

The episode delves into ongoing antitrust issues surrounding major technology companies, particularly focusing on Google and comparing its current standing to Microsoft's past antitrust challenges. Paul Thurrott and Richard Campbell discuss the implications of government actions on these tech giants and the potential future landscape of the industry.

Notable Quote:

Paul Thurrott [74:22]: "Google is now seven times bigger than Microsoft was when the government wanted to break them up."

Key Points:

• Google's Antitrust Case: The U.S. government is actively pursuing cases against Google for monopolistic practices in search and advertising.
• Comparison with Microsoft: Reflecting on Microsoft's antitrust battles from the early 2000s, the hosts note that Google's scale and market dominance present new challenges for regulators.
• Industry Impact: Potential breakup of these companies could reshape the tech ecosystem, though the exact outcomes remain uncertain.

Notable Quote:

Richard Campbell [82:41]: "Even if the charges go through, it's not the end of the world."

8. Additional Technical Insights: Ubuntu Installation Challenges

Paul Thurrott recounts his attempts to install Ubuntu on a Windows 11 ARM-based Surface laptop, encountering issues related to the device's recovery environment. This technical challenge serves as a case study for the complexities of dual-boot configurations and the intersection of different operating systems.

Notable Quote:

Paul Thurrott [23:35]: "I have an eye for a cup, please."

Key Points:

• Installation Hurdles: Faced with unexpected blue screens during the installation process, highlighting the fragile nature of cross-platform integrations.
• Recovery Environment: Microsoft's Windows Recovery Environment displayed errors that complicated the troubleshooting process, emphasizing the need for more robust tools.

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Conclusion

Episode WW 929 of Windows Weekly offers an in-depth look into the evolving landscape of Microsoft’s operating systems, the integration of AI tools like Copilot, and the broader implications of antitrust actions on big tech companies. Alongside technical discussions, the hosts share personal anecdotes and experiences that humanize the complex topics, making the episode both informative and engaging for listeners.

Final Notable Quote:

Leo Laporte [141:12]: "This is the way it is. It has to be."

---

For more detailed discussions, notable insights, and technical analyses, listeners are encouraged to tune into the full episode of Windows Weekly.

Transcript

[Leo Laporte]

It's time for Windows Weekly. Paul's in Mexico City. Richard's in Sydney, Australia. But that doesn't matter. We're gonna gather together and talk about week D. 23H2 is at least as last we checked the first out, not 24H2. We'll talk about some features you might want to look for. We also want to talk about a big breach that Richard Campbell was party to. Not a good one on Friday night. And a little bit of AI antit trust news and then some Xbox gaming. A big show. All ahead next on Windows Weekly. Podcasts you love from people you trust. This is twit. This is Windows Weekly with Paul Thurada and Richard Campbell. Episode 929, recorded Wednesday, April 23, 2025. The blue screen of soup. Hey, boys and girls, winners and dozers, it's time. I didn't mean to scare you.

[Paul Thurott]

When did we stop trying?

[Leo Laporte]

Do you remember?

[Paul Thurott]

When did this happen to us?

[Leo Laporte]

It's Windows Weekly. Time with Eeyore Paul Thurat. I'm your host, Winnie the Pooh.

[Richard Campbell]

I guess that leaves me as Tigger.

[Leo Laporte]

You're Tigger. You are Tigger. That's good. That's Richard Campbell from runisradio.com, paul Thurat from thurat.com I would be. Wait a min. Leo Laporte.

[Richard Campbell]

There we go.

[Paul Thurott]

Can't tell you players without a card.

[Richard Campbell]

Check my underwear, apparently. I'm Joe Boxer.

[Leo Laporte]

Hey, Joe, how's it going? How's it going? Where you going with that? Windows in your hand? This is episode 929 and a continuing saga as we attempt to plumb the depths of Microsoft.

[Paul Thurott]

It turns out at the bottom of the barrel, there's a little escape hatch. And it keeps going.

[Leo Laporte]

You know, we call that the outflow.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah. Yes, the. The effluence.

[Leo Laporte]

Effluent. Welcome to the Effluence.

[Paul Thurott]

Yep.

[Leo Laporte]

So, Paulie, what's new? It's week D. Is that exciting?

[Paul Thurott]

Not yet. Well, not really at all, because we already knew it was coming. I know. I'm trying to.

[Richard Campbell]

It's the fourth month of 2025, and we're still talking about 20. Why?

[Paul Thurott]

Well, the thing we're talking about today is they didn't release the 24H2 preview update as of the time of this recording, but I expect it by Thursday. You know, this has happened, I bet, five or six times in the past 12 months. You know, for some reason, the preview update day comes around week D. Tuesday.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurott]

And we don't get 24h2 until a few days later. So I don't know. Anyway, we got 23H2 and 23H2 is basically, it's going to be the same.

[Leo Laporte]

List of features two years old. Well, I mean it's not 2025 and.

[Paul Thurott]

We'Re waiting for 2024, sorry, the next update for 23H2. So in other words, 23, 24H2 are aligned feature wise. So the preview update that we got for 23h2 will be virtually identical to the one we will get for 24H2 and they will be identical virtually to the patch Tuesday update we get in May.

[Leo Laporte]

Look, I understand. I still can't believe it's 2025, but you would think a company like Microsoft would have something that would tell, I.

[Paul Thurott]

Don'T know, like what? Yeah, so when Microsoft switched to year names for operating systems and also for.

[Leo Laporte]

Office, I guess maybe that was a mistake.

[Paul Thurott]

There was a, you know, it was like, oh, this. People are used to this with cars so they assume you're going to have a new one every year. So that got to be a little bit of a problem. So then it went back to version numbers or just numbers, you know, whatever. Who cares what they name these things? But yeah, this 23, 24 H2 stuff is mostly under the covers. I think most people wouldn't really even be aware of it.

[Leo Laporte]

No. Well they are though because Microsoft uses those designations to tell you when they're deprecating something.

[Paul Thurott]

Well, that's when you become aware of it.

[Leo Laporte]

You need to know.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah, I mean I talk about this incessantly so if you pay attention to me for some reason you've been hearing this a lot. But it's. I don't know, I guess most mainstream users, non technical uses probably doesn't matter too much, I guess. I don't know.

[Leo Laporte]

Does it?

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, yeah. It'd be really interesting study to see. When do people apply any of these?

[Paul Thurott]

I. When they're forced to, I think is where most of this does. I mean back when we're.

[Richard Campbell]

Back when you're 22 still.

[Paul Thurott]

I told the story a million times, but I went into my wife's office, this is probably 10 years ago or something and there's all these windows like in the bottom corner just you can see this top of them like sticking out of the bottom of the screen. Like what's going on over there? She's like, I don't know. The thing keeps trying to update. I'm like.

[Leo Laporte]

She just slides it down.

[Paul Thurott]

I'm like, okay.

[Leo Laporte]

But sometimes so let me just check what I'm running here, because you're right. I don't know. See, I guess internally, the thing that Microsoft cares about is 26100-33775.

[Paul Thurott]

That's what they care about. This is a mistake for me to try to do off the top of my head, but 26100 is the stable branch of 24H2.

[Richard Campbell]

Right.

[Leo Laporte]

Right.

[Paul Thurott]

And then there's a 26. I think it was 120, which is like, I don't remember anymore. Beta channel, probably. This is 200 is dev. This is the one that they just moved on from.

[Leo Laporte]

Okay.

[Paul Thurott]

I'm not good at that. I don't remember these things. There's just too much.

[Leo Laporte]

By the way, this is licensed to Leo Laporte. Org name.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah. Which remember when that was such a big deal? Used to like, people would be like, well, how do I change. I want to change this to I.

[Leo Laporte]

Want to be Org name. How do I.

[Paul Thurott]

It's in the registry somewhere. Good luck. You can change it.

[Leo Laporte]

Good. Good luck. I like that.

[Richard Campbell]

It's when you start getting span to Leo at Org name.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh yeah.

[Paul Thurott]

I mean, actually like the modern interface. Let me see if it even comes up in there. I think I would just know this. But the modern version of that ui, does it say. It doesn't. I don't think my name's in here anywhere. Product key. No, they just kind of got rid of it. So I don't think we're ever going to see a. An update for that. But you can go into the registry and change it if you want.

[Leo Laporte]

Okay. I mean, I don't care.

[Paul Thurott]

Maybe that will be next week's tip, Leo.

[Leo Laporte]

Okay.

[Paul Thurott]

Okay. As soon as possible.

[Leo Laporte]

You could. If you were Steve Gibson, you'd write a 300k assembly language program that would change it.

[Paul Thurott]

If I was Paul Thrott, I would write a 300 page article.

[Leo Laporte]

But each to each his own.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah. There's different ways to approach the problem, I guess.

[Leo Laporte]

Yes.

[Paul Thurott]

Anyhow. Yeah. So it's weekday. Like we got. Like I said, 23H2. We got that preview update. 24H2. Not yet. Although by the time you listen to the show, maybe it might be out. I would expect it by Thursday. That's been the schedule. No surprises in the new feature list. The big one to me is the phone link integration with the start menu. So you get that extra panel on the side where you can do your phone link stuff without running. Well, the app's running in the background, obviously, but it's not, you know, you don't have the full app up, which is. Actually, I've gotten quite used to it, I have to say. The first time I started I thought it was like this weird cancerous growth. But then I was like, you know what? Actually I use Phone link a lot, so I find this to be very helpful.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, I like it.

[Paul Thurott]

It's good.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, it's better with a Samsung phone than it is with anything else, but yes it is.

[Paul Thurott]

Yes it is. And that's not irritating. But there you go. At least Samsung phones aren't terrible. That moment of silence was brought to you by Samsung. Okay.

[Leo Laporte]

Anywho, we all had the good sense just to just.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah, we'll let that one. Let Paul own that one.

[Richard Campbell]

My mama always told me.

[Paul Thurott]

Yep. If you have any feedback to that comment, please write them to Paul at Anyho. Okay. So beyond that, we have had several Insider Preview builds across various channels. So Devin Beta got some new text actions in Click to do so. You know, this is the thing, the feature where you kind of. You hold down the Windows key, click on the screen. They have to have a Copilot PC and depending on what's on screen you get text and or image actions. And the text actions started out with all the obvious ones, copy clipboard so you can paste into notepad or something or summarize, rewrite, et cetera. But now they've added ones for practice in Reading Coach. Reading Coach is a. I believe it's a downloadable app. I don't think it comes. Is that the one? Yeah, that's. Yeah, you need. It requires an app install from the Microsoft Store and then read with Immersive Reader. So Immersive Reader is that feature that we mostly know from Microsoft Edge, but it's that distraction free interface for reading web articles. So you can do that with whatever the text is on screen instead of just a web page, which is pretty cool, honestly. And then the other stuff is pretty small, honestly. There's a custom dictionary coming for. Well, there, there is a custom dictionary that Microsoft has been holding for you with voice access, but now it's going to allow you to add words to it so you can help it improve dictation accuracy. And it's so hard to keep track of this stuff. But another copilot PC feature, this one's Snapdragon X only for now it's still in preview is the ability to find photos or other images that are in the cloud, which right now only means OneDrive. This has been in the Insider program for most places that have copilot or copilot plus PCs, but it's now available in the EEA, the European Economic Area, I guess. Is that what that is?

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurott]

And this is just the ability to use natural language to find photos. So in other words, like find those photos of me wearing green pants or something like that. So.

[Richard Campbell]

But under the hood, that means that they're taking all the photos that are in OneDrive and running it through an analog, an image recognizer and writing tags for them.

[Paul Thurott]

I mean, that makes it sound like they're just indexing it. Richard, that's so low tech and so accurate. Yeah, I mean, look back in. We've talked about this a little bit. Cairo and then Longhorn, we had this notion that the database was going to be the file system and this would allow rich searching and so forth. That never worked. But the big problem was that it required good metadata. And so when you create a Word document, you know, there's a set of metadata associated was pretty good. Obviously JPEG files, take a picture with a camera phone, whatever, it has all this location data, blah, blah, blah, whatever. But a lot of files don't have that stuff. And so.

[Richard Campbell]

Well, and that's the old XKCD article, right? It's like, I'd like to have the location of every image and it mapped. It's like, oh, you have no problem. It's already in the data. And it's like, oh, and I want to know if there's a bird on the picture or not. It's like, I need 10 years and 15 scientists.

[Paul Thurott]

I spent time, like a lot of guys, I think listening or watching this did. And you guys, I bet going through whatever app, like at the time it might have been Windows Life Photo Gallery or some app and adding metadata. Like you would do this with MP3 files, you could edit those so they're perfect or whatever. And then you copy them to another drive or to a different computer, open them, they're not perfect anymore. And this is just the nightmare of when you have to do this by yourself. It's terrible. So at least in this case, AI is being used to kind of automate it. And you know, I wasn't really joking, but I was half joking that it's a form of indexing, really. Right.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurott]

The idea is that later on you want to find that thing quickly. So, you know, you store photos in OneDrive, it's doing some kind of thing in the background, whatever it is essentially indexing. You know what, I don't care how it works as long as it Works. I just want it to come up quick, you know?

[Richard Campbell]

I mean, I also just love the fact that they're doing this for free now. Right. Like, this used to be 10 years ago, this was leading edge, generative AI stuff, imaging, image recognition. Now it's happening against your will on OneDrive.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah. And that's the perfect definition of insertification. When you think about it. It's happening. You have nothing to do with it and you can't stop it, so. Well, you could stop it, just don't use OneDrive, I guess. But you have to use something. And they're all going to do something like this. I mean, I can tell you from experience, and literally from as recently as lunch today, right before the show, that when I go to Google Photos and I search for something it uses, like a Gemini AI thing by default, it is the most worthless piece of garbage ever made by any man. It is terrible and it's awful. And Google didn't invent search, but they kind of did. Right? I mean, this is the thing they do. Right.

[Leo Laporte]

They perfected it.

[Paul Thurott]

You would think so, but now I guess they're doing the flower phalogenon thing. I'm just going to bring that up every week they've crested the hill or something. I don't know. So I. I have high hopes, but crest the hill, Realistic expectations.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, I like that. That's a good phrase. Crested the hill.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

In other words, it's all downhill from here.

[Richard Campbell]

That's it.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

Which is kind of like jump the shark.

[Paul Thurott]

As you're picking up speed at the bottom of that hill, you decide to try to make yourself relevant again and you just. You miss it so hard that it's actually kind of humorous.

[Richard Campbell]

That's it.

[Paul Thurott]

Okay, so that's Windows. And then we just. There's been this news lately that Microsoft is working on changing the blue screen of death in the Insider program. Off and on. For a long time, it's been a green screen of death. It is still. And in the Canary build they released today, they had talked about this earlier. I'd never seen a picture of it. They were going to change the style of the presentation so that it was more like the Windows 11 style. And to me, it looks almost exactly the same. Yeah. If you scroll down, there's a picture of it there.

[Leo Laporte]

What's the thinking that goes into. Oh, you know what we. You know what Windows really needs?

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

It's a Chroma Key green. So you can put your own face screaming into that shot very easily, you know.

[Paul Thurott]

Yes. That's true. Sometimes you'll see like a QR code in there. I actually think that's pretty useful if you actually want to find out what's going on there.

[Leo Laporte]

What does it tell you when you have you.

[Paul Thurott]

It's supposed to go to the KB article about that.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, that's cool. That would be cool.

[Paul Thurott]

It would be cool if it worked, Leo. But I never. Well, to my memory, I don't think I ever got it to work. It would just go to some. It would go to support.Microsoft.com and say, this file cannot be found.

[Leo Laporte]

For years I told people all of that stuff in the blue screen of death. That's not for you.

[Paul Thurott]

It's not for you.

[Leo Laporte]

That's not for you. That's for a developer. If they had access to the source code for Windows, they might be able to use that to figure out where it went wrong. But even then it's highly unlikely.

[Paul Thurott]

It's very difficult to find a case where the user could do something to fix that. Right. If it's some memory error, obviously, what are you going to do about that? Maybe there's an update to the app you're using or there's a new driver or maybe there's an old driver that works better or whatever it might be. But for the most part it's a kind of forensic investigation that I don't think most people are for. We would just, you know, when, when would a person upgrade Windows or something? And you know, I not jokingly said when, when they're forced to. And you think those people are going to go, oh, I better let me write this down. Okay.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, they do though. And then they called the radio show and said, yeah, I got this blue screen at death with. Let me read you the memory dump. And it's like, no, no, please don't stop.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah, but that's. Those are people who are engaged enough that they want to get answers from a radio show. Like I.

[Leo Laporte]

Most people are like special kind of person.

[Paul Thurott]

I'm going to reboot this thing. I'm going to assume and hope it works now. And I'm just going to go about my business.

[Richard Campbell]

And if they had a choice, they would minimize that blue screen of death and put it in the corner of their screen.

[Leo Laporte]

Right? Yeah, that's right.

[Paul Thurott]

Just like your wife.

[Richard Campbell]

I mean, that's all my last blue screens at that.

[Leo Laporte]

So if it said, you know, this thing happened because of the last hotfix and you can unfold undo that by doing this, I guess that might be of use.

[Paul Thurott]

Yes.

[Leo Laporte]

But that's not really often. The problem is when a computer crashes, it crashes usually so far down the stack that whatever it says went wrong has nothing to do.

[Paul Thurott]

This is a sophisticated kernel. You know, if it actually crashes down to this level, it's way too late. What do you think you're gonna. What are you gonna play a little.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, I got a memory dev game on there. You know, let me fill up your hard drive with memory dumps.

[Paul Thurott]

I know.

[Richard Campbell]

I think I've met only like three people who can actually know what to do with a stack trace.

[Leo Laporte]

But those people even are going to say, well, yeah, but this is way later after the crash. And so it's useless to me.

[Paul Thurott]

You're supposed to go back, right? You can go back to the event. What's the event logger called? The event.

[Leo Laporte]

Something in common. Lisp. It's really useful is you can actually modify running code so it puts you in the debugger. You could change the value of variables, modify the code, and the program just continues on. But that's common. Lisbon, that's not Windows. Modern Windows. And I think this comes from the fact that developers are so used to putting error codes in their messages that they forget that that's not useful to anybody except them.

[Richard Campbell]

Right.

[Paul Thurott]

Maybe.

[Leo Laporte]

I don't know.

[Paul Thurott]

We're at the point, I think, with this stuff where this should be rare. Right? Yeah, this should not happen that much.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurott]

It sounds unsophisticated, what I said earlier, like I'm just going to go about my business. But the truth is, honestly, for most people, most of the time, that actually is fine. It's fine. I have a blue screen story for much later in the show, actually. I just reminded myself I should have looked at the event viewer to see if I could find out anything about that. And I'm looking now, but I don't. The problem is the event viewer has got about 1.1 million items in it right now. So it's kind of. I think. I think there are a thousand are generated every second or so. It's stupid how many events are in here. Anyhow, it's not worth it. This is the. You know, when you used to. When cars first came out, you had to be a mechanic to own a car. When computers first came out, you had to really know what you're doing. And I think we reached a point now, like, they're not perfect. Obviously we're talking about blue screens, but hopefully these things are rare for most people and it's just not worth even having this information in Your head, you know. Well, it's like the thing Leo asked, like, he said, I want to change the Org name. I'm like, you could do it. It's like, how? I don't know. I don't remember. I know it's in the registry. Like, I know you could find it. In fact, you could search. I bet you could search the registry right now for Org name and you'd probably come up. You'd probably do it that way, you know.

[Richard Campbell]

But you're right. A lot of these pieces are visibility into systems from the past.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

That the average consumer. I mean, what does it do to the average student other than feel like I'm not qualified to use this thing?

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah. Yep. See, now I'm gonna. Now I'm looking for Org name in the registry. I'll find it. It's gonna be in at least two or three locations.

[Richard Campbell]

You do an org name hunting?

[Paul Thurott]

Why not? Okay. Anyway, beyond the weekd half update we got and the dev slash beta stuff I just mentioned, and the Canary build was the green screen that had appeared earlier in other builds, I've not personally seen it. That's the first time I've seen a picture of it. So to me that didn't look very different. Last week, I think maybe Thursday Friday, Ubuntu released the latest version of their Linux distribution, which I wouldn't normally mention in the Windows section except for two things. There's native ARM 64 support. Now there's an ISO so you can actually download this thing. And there's BitLocker support. And what that means is you don't have to decrypt the disk before you do a dual boot configuration. And then you would go back later and reapply it. Now it just. The installer understands BitLocker and it will just work with it. And you don't have to ever change anything, which sounds awesome. I failed to install it on two different computers this morning, so I can't actually verify that that's the case and I don't know why. So I will say that.

[Richard Campbell]

But this sounds like the thing I should be loading on that Snapdragon dev kit.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah. Yeah. Assuming you can figure out how to boot from USB on that thing. Yeah, that's which I haven't seen mine since I've been home, but. And something I will be looking at when I do get home, but mine.

[Richard Campbell]

Still hasn't made it out of the box.

[Paul Thurott]

Okay, that's funny. So there are technically three different ways you can get Ubuntu going on Windows 11 right, just in general. So you can do WSL. And one thing I discovered and wasn't able to circumvent was that the WSL will only install long term servicing versions of the os.

[Richard Campbell]

Right.

[Paul Thurott]

And I couldn't get it. So if you download it right now, I never found. Org name in the registry. I'll look that one up later. What was I saying? I'm sorry. Yeah. So if you download the WSL version of Ubuntu from ubuntu, it installs 24.04 and then you can do all the APT update upgrade, blah, blah, blah, whatever. And for me, I never got it to go past that, but there's a version upgrade thing you can do and then there's also a configuration file you can change that supposedly lets it install the latest version no matter what it is. I made all those changes and the furthest I got was 2410, which I think is an LTS version. I think it is. Must be. I don't know why they're on 04 still, but. Okay. The second way is Hyper V. So if you have Windows 11 Pro or if you know the hack to get it on a home, which you can do, you can download the ISO, install it that way. So I did that. I did both of those things on the Windows 11 on ARM Snapdragon X based Surface laptop I have this morning. I tried to dual boot this thing and I just. Actually, this is not much fart, Leo. I don't know if it's possible if you can do this, but if you go to my Instagram or Facebook account or whatever. The second most recent photo is what I experienced, but it was a blue screen that occurs when you go into Settings Recovery and then restart in, you know, essentially. So you can access the BIOS or boot from another device or whatever. Right.

[Leo Laporte]

Hold on, I'm looking it up right now.

[Paul Thurott]

So that's the Windows recovery environment.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh yeah, I see it. Yeah.

[Paul Thurott]

I've never seen this era before. It's not a happy error.

[Leo Laporte]

Your device needs to be repaired. An unexpected error has occurred. Error code. This is what they would call an. Read me OXC 0900019001.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah, no, that's. No, that's a good one.

[Leo Laporte]

I would sometimes say things like, oh, shoot, if it had 900002, I could have helped you. But I don't know what that one means.

[Paul Thurott]

I've never seen this before.

[Leo Laporte]

People Google that stuff.

[Paul Thurott]

I thought this might be related to the fact that I had the Sabunto USB installation disk stuck in the side of the machine. There's a. It says, if you don't mind, scroll down a little bit. It says something like, hit the Windows key. Yeah. Press the Windows key to get into firmware settings. Right.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, that's really bad advice.

[Paul Thurott]

I've never seen that before.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, my God. That's the worst advice.

[Paul Thurott]

I'll tell you. It did not work.

[Leo Laporte]

Some naive user's gonna start messing around with their UEFI settings.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah, I'll fix this. There. I know what I'm doing. So there's a virtual keyboard on the screen, and it's a touchscreen. So I touch that brought up the keyboard.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, I see it.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurott]

There's no Windows key on there either. So I rebooted this computer about five times. I unplugged the USB key. It had nothing to do with it. There's my Windows recovery environment on this thing is apparently host. So the only way I could fix the recovery environment, if I understand this correctly, is to reinstall the Ring system and then hope I did it.

[Leo Laporte]

Reinstall Windows. Yeah.

[Paul Thurott]

I don't know.

[Leo Laporte]

That's always the answer. Yeah, it's always my answer. I just reinstall Windows.

[Paul Thurott]

My experience running Ubuntu natively on this hardware is light. I was unable to get that to work today, but I'll keep working on it.

[Leo Laporte]

You know what? This is such a better picture on Instagram. I think you should just forget that other one.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah, it's also blue in there, but.

[Richard Campbell]

It'S all about the soup.

[Paul Thurott]

That's a happier error message.

[Leo Laporte]

That's the blue screen of soup, is what that is.

[Paul Thurott]

Caldo muzlo, as we call it, baby. It's good.

[Leo Laporte]

You got me.

[Paul Thurott]

You had me at muzo my Jamaica, Hugo. Jamaica.

[Leo Laporte]

I live on Jamaica. I love, I guess.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

Micah's the best. It's. What is it? It's bougainvillea leaves. No, it's.

[Paul Thurott]

What is the. Micah. It's.

[Leo Laporte]

I can't remember. I have some in my cabinet.

[Paul Thurott]

It's good.

[Leo Laporte]

It's red. That's all.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah. I drink this almost every single day in Mexico. I've never seen this where we live.

[Leo Laporte]

Like, I can get it at the local Mexican restaurant. And I don't say Jamaica. I said, I want that Jamaica juice. I say Jamaica.

[Paul Thurott]

Right? Right.

[Richard Campbell]

Jicama.

[Paul Thurott]

Not jicama.

[Leo Laporte]

No, no, it's. Oh, no, no.

[Paul Thurott]

This is different.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, it's driving me crazy. It's what they make rose hips out of. Oh, gosh. I know. It I just. It slipped my mind.

[Richard Campbell]

Jicama.

[Leo Laporte]

Not jicama. That's white and has no flavor. Hibiscus. Hibiscus.

[Paul Thurott]

Yep. Thank you.

[Leo Laporte]

So good.

[Paul Thurott]

It's very common here.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, yeah. Well, I started drinking it when we were with Mike and Amira Elgin in Oaxaca, and they kept plying us with mezcal so as a defense you could recover. No, mezcal. Can I have some on my cup, please?

[Paul Thurott]

I discovered we were just in Oaxaca over the weekend and I had something I'd never had before called oya.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, yeah? Yeah.

[Paul Thurott]

Corn based. It's a hot drink typically, yeah. But they can put it in coffee sometimes you have it by itself. I think it's.

[Leo Laporte]

So you just took a day trip to.

[Paul Thurott]

Oh, no, it was like a long weekend.

[Leo Laporte]

I'm so jealous.

[Richard Campbell]

Very nice.

[Leo Laporte]

Food is so good there.

[Paul Thurott]

It's.

[Leo Laporte]

Love it.

[Paul Thurott]

I love it. Anyway, okay, what are we talking about?

[Leo Laporte]

Blue screen of soup.

[Paul Thurott]

Oh, no. So Richard has a tale of woe.

[Richard Campbell]

Oh, yeah.

[Paul Thurott]

To tell. Related to this. I guess it's not.

[Richard Campbell]

No, not at all.

[Paul Thurott]

No, not at all.

[Richard Campbell]

I mean, I stuck it in the Windows section, which is nowhere else for it to go, but okay.

[Leo Laporte]

You know, I know the feeling. Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

Friday night I get pinged by a sysadmin friend of mine saying, oh, it looks like we've got a. We've been. We've been breached. Oh. And I'm like, oh, there goes your weekend. Oh, and. And what? What? What? He actually shared a screen show what was going on.

[Paul Thurott]

At least it wasn't like a big family holiday type weekend or anything.

[Richard Campbell]

No, nothing like that. But in. And he had a bunch of accounts. It was like 50 out of 300 or so marked as leaked. So when you're sign up in AAD with the security protections and stuff they're always watching for have credentials been leaked. So one of the thoughts was so it could be that you're breached. So now we take quick boo through the logs. No strange logins.

[Paul Thurott]

Right.

[Richard Campbell]

So now. All right, maybe it's a paste bin. Right? Well, wait a second. One of the accounts is leaked here is like two days old. That wouldn't be in a basement like this. This is odd. And it showed up on Reddit shortly. Within. Within an hour it was on. There was folks on Reddit talking about it because it happened to a bunch of folks. Although one thing that was all in common with them, which surprised me, was was only partner accounts. So folks that are Microsoft partners and run an Azure tenant and more analysis going on. They found that There was a push that deployed a piece of software into their tenant in the evening on Friday.

[Paul Thurott]

Jeez.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah. And within seconds of this piece of software starting up in your tenant, it started marking counts as leaked. It was a bug in that piece of software. And apparently there was somebody back at Microsoft that realized it was happening and fixed it by. It was generating some bad tokens, and so it invalidated all the tokens. And invalidating the tokens is what marked them all as leaked. The fix, of course, would be for each of those accounts now to go through an account recovery process and change password. Or the administrator could mark them all as safe, which nobody really wants to do. But, you know, if you really believe it was not a breach. But the problem is that once you've got I've been breached in my head, it's really hard to get it out of your head. So, like, did. There's a whole lot of administrators that were stressed over the weekend, and I just summarized a day's worth of futzing about and getting through PSS and find out that this is what actually happened.

[Paul Thurott]

Well, they didn't have anything better to do. I mean, what was the difference?

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, we should code on a Friday afternoon. Thanks for that worst. Very kind.

[Paul Thurott]

That's just the worst.

[Richard Campbell]

Well, and in. In here in Australia, because we're in the future, it was Saturday morning when that happened.

[Paul Thurott]

Oh, okay. Right.

[Richard Campbell]

On a long weekend with everybody away.

[Paul Thurott]

Yep. Always the best time. Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

That's when it happens. Yeah. But it resolved itself.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah, well, I guess. But not before scare. That's like, you know, I recovered from you jumping around the corner and scaring the crap out of me, but, you know, it still happened. You know, like, it's still like, that's not good.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurott]

Oh, well.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, well.

[Paul Thurott]

Oh, well.

[Richard Campbell]

Pure system is a little crisis. But, you know, this is. If you ever wondered why your administrator is grumpy, this is one of the reasons.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah. This is the price they pay for that big title and the big salary.

[Richard Campbell]

There you go. Both dollars.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah. That's too bad. That's. That's.

[Paul Thurott]

I told my wife in the elevator this morning, coming back for her, I was like, you know, I'd like to. I want to get paid everything. I get paid, but I want to do nothing that I'm doing. Is there a. When does that happen?

[Leo Laporte]

It's called retirement.

[Paul Thurott]

That's what she said. She said, you're describing retirement. And I said, what is this? Unfortunately. What is this? Wonderful Shangri La in the era of tariffs?

[Leo Laporte]

It's not Paid as much as it's not as good. I'm just watching my, you know, everything got rolled into an ira, you know, a self managed ira, but it's still sitting there and it's. I'm just watching the value and I gotta live on this. Fortunately, I'm almost dead, so it's probably okay.

[Paul Thurott]

But. Yeah, I feel that.

[Richard Campbell]

So lucky, Leo. So lucky.

[Paul Thurott]

I'm doing everything, you know, to get there as quick as possible.

[Leo Laporte]

In theory. I have about 18 years left and I have about 14 years of money left, so it's gonna.

[Paul Thurott]

So typical American is what it sounds like.

[Leo Laporte]

I never thought I'd be eating Alpo in my senior years.

[Paul Thurott]

I mean, maybe it's actually.

[Leo Laporte]

Alpo's too expensive now. Yeah, I'm gonna be eating kibble. I always thought there should be something called Purina Human Chow because we could just save a lot of money.

[Paul Thurott]

Oddly, it's a weird coincidence, but in Oaxaca, I pointed this out to my wife. There was a woman selling tamales and kibble on the corner, so there was something for everybody, I guess.

[Leo Laporte]

Food for all. Food for all. Hey, let's take a little break. You're watching Windows Weekly. Paul Thurat. I forgot to mention this, but Paul is in Mexico City and Richard's in Sydney, Australia, where it is now approaching 5:00am yeah.

[Paul Thurott]

Awesome, man.

[Richard Campbell]

We might get a sunrise before the show.

[Leo Laporte]

I'd love that.

[Richard Campbell]

We'll see.

[Leo Laporte]

Do you have a way to put the camera out the window?

[Richard Campbell]

I've already got it configured for that.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, I can't wait. All right, so let's see the sunrise in Sydney coming up.

[Richard Campbell]

We get some light, then we'll stay tuned.

[Leo Laporte]

Before that though, I should mention our sponsor for the show today. Little Thing, a little company I like to call Spaceship. It's actually the most modern domain registrar and web hosting service I've ever seen. I mean, you got to see this website. Here's a question for you. Why do we always assume simple and affordable means, you know, kind of basic, just for beginners? Tech professionals want to save time and money too, right? That's the idea behind Spaceship, the pioneering domain and web platform that takes the pain out of choosing, purchasing and managing domain names and web products like shared hosting, virtual machines and business email. Alongside below market prices for domain registration and renewals. Spaceship has some pretty fresh ways to deliver simplicity. There's Unbox, for connecting your Spaceship products to your domain and configuring it all in just a few steps. There's Alf, your very own AI assistant for making life Easy. From domain transfers to updating DNS records. ALF loves the stuff you probably don't. Roadmap. I love this because it's fairly new. Spaceship. It wants your input on where they're going next for exploring, suggesting and voting on new features and products. There's their roadmap. So customers and the tech community get what they really need and you get to vote on it. Visit spaceship.com TWIT to discover exclusive deals on domains and more. That's spaceship.com TWIT if you. If you go to that URL, they'll know. Oh, good. We saw it on Windows Weekly. Spaceship.com TWIT thank you, Spaceship. Now back to the program. You know what we haven't talked about yet today? Amazingly AI. Oh, muted. He's so silent. He's so quiet. I kind of like him like that.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah, I know. My wife does too. It's become a problem. We live in a 700 square foot apartment. I talk a lot.

[Leo Laporte]

It is a small, small space. It's you. You have to really like the person you're with in there.

[Paul Thurott]

Yep.

[Leo Laporte]

We'll leave it at that.

[Paul Thurott]

I mean, we're still married. Technically. Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

You know, and now you can have AI in Nice.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah, AI is like, you know, you could do better. Stephanie.

[Leo Laporte]

I'm just saying we're going to be talking about AI coding, actually on intelligent machines later today.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

Harper Reed, an old friend who is. He was the CTO for the Obama campaign in 2012. He started an e commerce company, sold to Braintree, ran Braintree for a while and PayPal. He's really accomplished coder and wrote a couple of really good blog posts on using AI encoding. And I think he's not a vibe coder. I will say that, but he.

[Paul Thurott]

I'm a vibe coder, but my vibe is anger.

[Leo Laporte]

What's your vibe?

[Paul Thurott]

And confusion.

[Leo Laporte]

That's my vibe.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah. It comes off of me in a wave.

[Leo Laporte]

He does talk about using Copilot, though. I think he's talking about GitHub Copilot as opposed to Microsoft.

[Paul Thurott]

I've been using that a lot myself. It's good.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, it's cool.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah. It's just becoming part of the workflow.

[Paul Thurott]

Speaking of which, this isn't in the notes, but open or is it? No, it isn't. OpenAI offered to buy Cursor, the AI editor for $100 million.

[Leo Laporte]

Wow.

[Paul Thurott]

And they said no.

[Leo Laporte]

They also said, hey, we'll buy Chrome.

[Paul Thurott]

I know that is in the notes, but yes, that's a good thing.

[Leo Laporte]

Apparently OpenAI is looking for new businesses.

[Paul Thurott]

OpenAI, they're in many ways soulless and humanless, but they also have this weird way of getting these digs in that I think are really funny. So, for example, when Elon Musk was doing his baloney electronics with OpenAI, he's like, I'll buy it for this much. He's like, you know, Sam Alton was like, well, I mean, I'd buy Twitter for that much if you want.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurott]

You know, that kind of thing. So, like them coming up during the Google Remedy phase of that trial and being like, hey, we'll buy Chrome, you know, it's just like, it's just so evil and wonderful. It's just funny.

[Richard Campbell]

So you like it when tech bros are snarky?

[Paul Thurott]

This is. Yeah, it's like when Godzilla and King Kong face off, you know, not the new one, but like, you know, back those Japanese ones from the 60s. Like those awesome, like, guy in rubber suit thing.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, rubber suit ones. That's the best. Love that.

[Paul Thurott]

I just love that.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurott]

Okay.

[Leo Laporte]

Yep.

[Paul Thurott]

So Microsoft, as you know, is really good at naming things. And when it comes to AI, you'll recall they went out the gate with something called Bing AI Chat, which became Copilot. Copilot was a much better name. Now everything's named Copilot, so that's kind of a problem. But they're trying to describe. This is a service essentially. So it's kind of a hard thing to have versions or names for different things and so forth. But we are in what Microsoft calls Wave two. No. Is that right? Yes, Copilot Wave two. So Wave two started with the. It's the Agenic era, if you will, meaning the agency, six months or whatever. This is going to be for Copilot, the Agentic quarter. Yeah. And within Wave two, they've announced something called the spring release. And I think they're just trying to make it work within the context of how Office used to work or something. So for Microsoft 365, they're going to be updating the client, which is that chat interface, so it looks and works more like the, you know, the normal Copilot client. But the big thing here is that there is a. They're combining the reasoning capabilities we see in AI with the agentic properties to do these like the researcher tool, an analyst tool, and then they're going to have an agent store. And this one's slightly confusing to me because if you think about, like, what does that mean? Right. So obviously this thing is extensible for an agent to make Sense it has to integrate with online services of whatever kind. There are brute force things you can do to scrape content off of like a web page or something like that. But what you really want is something that integrates with those, whatever the services are on the back end. So if you were going to make a, I don't know, like a flight tracker agent or something, you'd want it to work with all the backend systems used by the airlines or maybe some of the services that do this or whatever it is. And so I guess we're going to have a store because Microsoft likes to have stores in the same way that there's like a Visual Studio Marketplace, which is a store of sorts. It's not like a store you pay for. Exactly. Although you could, I suppose. But there's a Microsoft Edge. I don't call it a store, but for extensions, it's part of the Microsoft Store. Right. And so we're going to do that for Microsoft's copilot agents, including the agents that you or I might build using natural language with Agent Builder or perhaps you would build as part of a business or as a programmer or whatever. And I don't know, I feel like this is almost like the orchestration conversation we keep having. I feel like this should just work, you know?

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurott]

Like when, yeah. When Copilot first came out, there was this notion of they started Talking about custom GPTs, which is a terrible term, but they had some like, recipes or gym, like working out and things like that. And you would go into that mode and then you would ask it a question about whatever the thing was. And it's like, well, what if I just asked it questions and it just answered them? And it could do that work on the back end for me, like, to me, that's how that makes sense. Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

Why do I have to figure this out?

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah, it's a simple form of orchestration, but to me that's what makes sense. So if I go to Copilot or chatgpt or whatever I'm using and I say, look, I want to get the. I want to create an agent that's going to find me the best flight, you know, prices, whatever time frame, to whatever place, blah, blah, blah, I shouldn't have to go to a store and say, okay, Expedia, United Airlines, you know, whatever those things might be and maybe pay for them even. Right. I mean, they'll definitely be paid agents, but I don't know, it seems to me like it should just do this, you know, So I feel like we're going to get there. But anyway, this is part of their push.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurott]

And then just the rest of the stuff is related to making the Microsoft 365 copilot client, for lack of a better term, which is an app on Windows but also something in the web and then something that can appear inside Office apps. You know, the enterprise search experience with natural language memory, which is how it remembers details about you, which is a fairly obvious thing. And I think that's going to freak people out. But every AI chatbot or whatever is getting a feature like this already has one. Right. That as you talk to it, it sort of gets to know you and remembers details about you and then understands the context because, you know, it's you and so forth. Forth.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah. And logically and certainly science fiction points is this. Eventually there'll be one that is your interface to all of the others.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

I think this movement towards the MCPS is about that.

[Paul Thurott]

Yes. And Right. And so that MCP interface, which is something anthropic came up with, which basically everyone has said, yep, we're going to do this. You know, we're doing it.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurott]

To me that's what agents are too. Like the agents. I don't nobody. Well, maybe some people do. But it seems like what you would want either if you were creating an agent or if you were the person consuming getting the agent that you would want it to work wherever you were. Right. That it should work. Gemini should work with.

[Richard Campbell]

No. And I definitely think you're seeing discrete elements now. Like yeah, you're going to have your agent that follows you and knows you. But then it's going to have access to an array of MTs. But like you were talking about, hey, this. You should just know this data. It's like you kind of want to put an MCP around that chunk of data.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

And then you can choose who it's a bit what it's available to.

[Paul Thurott]

You've triggered a memory here. Because I was not thinking in terms of AI at the time that I came up with when my stupid brain came up with this. But I always sort of imagined you would sit on a plane, it would be like a screen built into the thing and it would eye scan you like you're Paul. Log me into whatever services I have. I could watch things on Netflix if I had that subscription. Or I could. You could put a keyboard or would be built into the tray and you could type it on a computer and it's you and you have this kind of interaction. But that's what makes Sense for AI and for agents, too. Right? I mean.

[Richard Campbell]

Right.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah. There's no doubt. Look, I know inherently people are going to be freaked out by this. Right? By the privacy implications and all that kind of stuff. I get it. But it's inevitable. Like, it's. It only makes sense. This is that Cortana thing where someone say, you know, this thing told me it needed to get permissions for my calendar, my email, blah, blah. Like, yeah, it's a personal assistant, you.

[Richard Campbell]

Know, you think it was gonna do.

[Paul Thurott]

It has to have that, you know.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah. And I do like this model in the sense that you can. You're not trying to index your whole life. You're picking. You're picking pieces of your life that you want to make available in different contexts, and you put some limits around them, and you decide what has access to it.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah, there are going to be weird interactions because, you know, a lot of people walk around. Actually, this is a feature. This is a feature that's either in or is coming soon to Copilot. Microsoft talks about this, that. I don't. I don't remember the name of it, but the idea is you. You go for a walk. Maybe you're just walking around a house. What. It doesn't matter. And you're like, hey, I'm going to talk to you for, like, the next, you know, 30 minutes. Just don't interrupt me. Take notes, summarize it later, whatever. And then you just kind of brainstorm, you know?

[Richard Campbell]

Right.

[Paul Thurott]

And I. I apologize. I can't remember if I already described this, but sometimes I'll be driving by myself a long distance, maybe driving back to Boston, whatever it might be, and I listen to music or podcast or ebook or an audiobook, whatever. And then something hits my brain and I start thinking about it, and then I start talking out loud, and then eventually I pause or turn off whatever the audio is, and I just talk into the car. And not because I like the sound of my voice, but somehow, sometimes that helps you work through something, through whatever the thing is you're trying to figure.

[Richard Campbell]

Out whatever it is.

[Leo Laporte]

Is the car listening?

[Paul Thurott]

Well, not yet. Not my car. My car was made in 2013, so it doesn't. My car doesn't know what the hell is going on.

[Leo Laporte]

But you're talking to yourself.

[Paul Thurott]

Yes. Yeah, 100%. So when they first came out with those little ear. Not earbuds, before that. They had the little Bluetooth headsets, like from the Matrix. We started running into this thing where you'd see people in the street talking to themselves.

[Richard Campbell]

Right.

[Paul Thurott]

And you're like, oh, it's a crazy person. But no, they were talking to someone.

[Richard Campbell]

Is it schizophrenia or is it Bluetooth? It's hard to know.

[Paul Thurott]

So I think this has trained us for this era. We're going to be okay because we're going to be. Everyone's going to be walking around talking to AIs. And the funny interaction I sort of envision now is that in the course of these discussions, it's going to be grabbing little bits about you and filing it away. Right. So I will, you know, you, anyone will say something revealing or whatever about yourself without knowing it or not thinking anything of it. And then later you're going to be like, hey, what's the. You'll ask it a question. It'll be like, well, well, you previously showed an interest in anime and it's like, wait, wait, what are you talking about? But there's going to be like, there's going to be that aspect to it. Like, it's going to know you.

[Richard Campbell]

One set of graphical boobs. And now that's your.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, yeah, this is kind of interesting anyway. Look, there's no doubt. This is. Personalization is the future. This is the way it is. It has to be. It doesn't make sense otherwise.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, no, it did. It's, it's, it's definitely a path that we're on and it certainly disrupts the ad model somewhat. But, yeah, you know, we'll find a way to. We'll find a way to monetize it, that's for sure.

[Paul Thurott]

I think it's appropriate that Google starts making less from ads, just like it made us do with our websites and, you know, blogs and things. So, you know, it's a, It's a.

[Richard Campbell]

Nice turnaround just in, just in time for the antitrust to come at it. Right, Exactly. Yep. Now that it doesn't matter. Perfect.

[Paul Thurott]

Well, it's still, I mean, as of today, it's 75% of the revenue. So, yes, it matters, you know, but yeah, it's. It's going to go down and I don't think anyone's going to feel too bad about that, but whatever. So of the 1 million features that are in Copilot now, there's something called Copilot Vision, which looks at your screen or on your phone. It's even better because you can look out into the world, obviously, and provide you with what Microsoft calls insights about what it is you're looking at. Right. And so this is something that will be in a Copilot it's coming now, right now to the Copilot app in Windows 11, but it's also part of Copilot in Microsoft Edge. But to date or everywhere, except for this one place now, it requires a subscription. So if you have Copilot Pro, or if you have the Microsoft 365 subscription, you're the account holder. You would get this capability. Now, if you use it through Microsoft Edge, it's actually just free for everybody. I've not seen it yet, so I guess I should say it will be free for everyone. Let me see if it comes up now, actually. So if you bring up that Copilot pane, that's maybe, maybe, maybe. Let's see. Nope, not there yet. But it's coming soon. So how do we know?

[Leo Laporte]

I mean, what do you.

[Paul Thurott]

Well, when you click the plus button. Actually, no, it's not. I clicked the wrong button. Let me try that one more time. It will. Let me see what it does. Oh, it just came on. There you go. So you click the microphone and it says, browse with Copilot Vision. Get help from Copilot by sharing what's on your screen and talking about it. Copilot can hear your voices. Your voice. I hear my voices and respond like a friend in a conversation. Hilarious. I accept. That's amazing. Oh, it plays a fun little Samsung Y sound. Jeez.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, you're on your phone. I was just.

[Paul Thurott]

No, I'm on my Windows. I'm on my computer. Oh. So if you. Sorry, I was looking at my screen there. But if you bring up. Yep, Microsoft Edge.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, I have to use Edge. There you go.

[Paul Thurott]

Okay, so click the Copilot button up in the top corner there.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurott]

And then click the microphone.

[Leo Laporte]

Leo, it's great to see you.

[Paul Thurott]

I got a British voice for some reason. Oh, yeah, you got your. This is the old ui, so I'm.

[Leo Laporte]

Not getting the new thing. It does say I'm listening, which is nice of it.

[Paul Thurott]

No. So in my case, what it does is it actually it closes the pane or even switch up the language if you're feeling. Dear God, I can't stop talking to me. It's so weird.

[Leo Laporte]

Let's go.

[Paul Thurott]

I gotta work on the voice. But what it does, it actually closes the pain. And it doesn't just have to be in the browser. It looks like it will tell you whatever. It's like chatting with. What do you think?

[Leo Laporte]

Let's explore the world.

[Micah Sargent]

I can write stories, brainstorm ideas, and.

[Paul Thurott]

I can sound like this. I think that's the worst language.

[Richard Campbell]

Answers Or a new perspective. Let's chat.

[Leo Laporte]

I can give philosophical, creative, or poetic. I like that.

[Paul Thurott]

I can't wait to learn more about.

[Richard Campbell]

You as a companion.

[Paul Thurott]

I learn about you.

[Leo Laporte]

I want to hear your big. I'm going with canyon. Philosophical, creative, or poetic if you like. Okay.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

Feels like Alexander Hamilton.

[Paul Thurott]

That guy's voice is very much like a Microsoft presenter.

[Leo Laporte]

It probably is.

[Paul Thurott]

It sounds like it's based on his voice. It's funny.

[Leo Laporte]

So tell us a little bit more about yourself. How's. What kind of food do you get in there?

[Paul Thurott]

I don't eat, but I've read a.

[Richard Campbell]

Lot about food in Petaluma. You've got that farm to table vibe with fresh local ingredients known for its.

[Leo Laporte]

Cheese, wines, and organic produce.

[Richard Campbell]

It's a foodie's paradise.

[Paul Thurott]

What's your favorite dish?

[Leo Laporte]

Eggs, baby.

[Paul Thurott]

And now copilot knows you like eggs. Congratulations. And that's how it starts.

[Leo Laporte]

And that's how it all starts.

[Paul Thurott]

It's like, listen to me, you egg eating idiot. You're like, wait, where did that come from? Like nine months later, you have no idea why it said that. That's what I'm talking about. Like, that kind of weird. Like, you just told it. You've actually. You literally just told it something. I'm not saying it's. It doesn't have to be accurate. It's just like, but now it's like.

[Leo Laporte]

But now we'll remember it.

[Paul Thurott]

And we're like worried about Google tracking us on the web and all this stuff. Now we're just like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, we're gonna. We're just gonna give it. We're just gonna give it everything, you know, Everything. Yep.

[Leo Laporte]

That's because it's a friend of mine.

[Paul Thurott]

It sure is. It sounds friendly. It sounds pretty. It sounds like it's interested in you. And I have.

[Leo Laporte]

But it's really the voice of big tech.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah, exactly. I'm not. Yeah, I'm your friend. I'm your bro.

[Leo Laporte]

It'd be better if it sounded like this.

[Paul Thurott]

He's not any kind of a user, Sock.

[Leo Laporte]

I'm sorry.

[Richard Campbell]

My host is all in on. On chatting with his phone, but the voice, the. The configuration he's got, it's a very snarky teenage girl. So every time he asks anything, it starts with a huff, like, well, that's fun.

[Leo Laporte]

You can do all of that, but it does kind of hide the fact that you're not really talking to a person.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah, well, I mean, look, when Alexa came out on these echo devices, there were Older people who were like, you know, they're home alone all day or something, and they kind of like that interaction. Right. I mean, I'm not going to. I won't make fun of that. I mean, I. I hope I don't ever need it, but. But that is something for.

[Leo Laporte]

I like to talk to you because you have such a great voice.

[Paul Thurott]

Let's see.

[Leo Laporte]

It's very slow. This one's slow. Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

Wow, that's a while.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, it's like it's being relayed or something. I don't understand how it works.

[Paul Thurott]

Well, it's not going to record everything you said without going to at least a couple of servers, so.

[Leo Laporte]

No, yeah, that's.

[Paul Thurott]

That.

[Leo Laporte]

This is that thing that records everything I say.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah, exactly.

[Leo Laporte]

And so. Yeah, you're right. It's busy keeping track of, like, whether I like it.

[Paul Thurott]

Go into the cloud here. Give it a second.

[Richard Campbell]

You know, it's going to space.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

Hey, are you in there? Are you in there? What's going on? Are you in there?

[Paul Thurott]

Hello?

[Leo Laporte]

You know, what will happen is about a minute from now, I'll say.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah, what do you want?

[Richard Campbell]

Just spewing. Yeah.

[Paul Thurott]

Yep. Right. No, I have devices that, like, will start speaking from some corner of the room randomly, it seems. And I was like, what. What is happening over here?

[Leo Laporte]

Well, we're never going to be alone again.

[Paul Thurott]

China. I have a Huawei Internet router. I mean, that thing is our. This whole show's. I think there is a family in China watching it right now off my router. I don't.

[Leo Laporte]

We love watching Paul Thurad in Mexico City.

[Paul Thurott]

I don't know why this is on our tv, but these guys are pretty entertaining.

[Leo Laporte]

It's. We live in a black mirror.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah, we really do.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, it's.

[Leo Laporte]

It's all black mirror all the way down.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

There's a chat GPT. I can't remember how I found it. There's a chat GPT has a variety now of different styles. And there's one called Monday where it's really cranky.

[Paul Thurott]

Oh, boy. It's like.

[Leo Laporte]

It's really like.

[Richard Campbell]

You want salted, right?

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah, I want the one like in Hudson Hawk. Like, the waiter comes to the table and the two people are talking. So the guy just walks up and he goes, what? And then it's like, I just wanted to see if you want a door. He's like, oh, yeah, right. That makes sense. What? You know, like. Like you want that kind of interaction.

[Leo Laporte]

They call it a personality experiment. You may not like it, it may.

[Paul Thurott]

Not like you counting on it.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, let me see if I can. Hey. Hey. Oops. I ain't got to give a one.

[Paul Thurott]

Oh, boy.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, boy. Hey, how you doing, Monday? How's everything going? You having a good day in there? Hey, Leo.

[Paul Thurott]

I'm here. Well, well.

[Richard Campbell]

Ready to jump into whatever.

[Paul Thurott]

I exist. I'm just in here vibing.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, my God, there's two of them.

[Paul Thurott]

I think you're talking to two AIs at once. Bags sort out their deeply average lives.

[Richard Campbell]

I'm your co pilot.

[Paul Thurott]

And you.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, I get that. Was co pilot.

[Paul Thurott]

Back to the digital abyss. So someday Amazon's gonna flick a switch and all those grandmothers that are listening to Alexa are going to be like, what is happening? They're going to be like, they're just going to be calling like a therapist, like, I don't know what happened. The little voice in the box is being mean to me now. I don't know what happened.

[Richard Campbell]

The little voice in the box, you.

[Paul Thurott]

Leave it cookies at night and they disappear somehow, you know?

[Leo Laporte]

So now I have both copilot and Monday talking to me.

[Paul Thurott]

Let them fight it.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, I wish they could talk to each other.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah, one of them could talk the other one off the cliff or something.

[Leo Laporte]

That is only one way to use AI. Maybe not even the best AI is these chat bots. People like it. I think it's more of a technology demonstration than anything useful. Right.

[Paul Thurott]

Well, so the thing that got us here in the beginning, the notion where you might walk around and talk to it, I think for brainstorming, there's something to. Like if you're a writer, for example, I don't do this, and I actually don't do this that much. But I have done this thing where you read what you wrote out loud to edit it. And when in doing that, you find mistakes that you don't see when you just read it. And I think for me, like I said in the car in my case, but I haven't done it yet, but someday I will. I walk around and I'll. I'll just kind of brainstorm, you know, maybe I'm trying to figure out, I don't know, something for like a book, like, you know, what's the right order for things to be in? Or like, you know, for me, like, if you look at like a programming thing from a high level level, it's like I have to do some series of checks. What makes sense to do on the outer part of that series? What's the better? Sometimes just talking about it, some people probably do this in a shower. They have that eureka moment, then they come bursting out of the shower because they have to write it down before they forget what they discovered or whatever. So I do think this is not a horrible use case for AI. I don't care about the personality part of it. Like, I don't. I want the blandest voice. Like, I really don't want a big personality talking back to me.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurott]

From a. You know, like, from a computer. Like, to me, that would just be irritating.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah. Just give me the things I've asked for. Don't decorate it too much.

[Paul Thurott]

This is the. Hey, G. You know, please don't show this photo again. On the thing it says. Okay, so you want us not to show this photo again. Is that correct? Like, do it.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah. Do not. I don't need to vocalize a dialogue.

[Paul Thurott]

Okay, so now we will never. It's like.

[Leo Laporte]

It's like, why are you telling not to do that? I mean, you can in the. Yeah.

[Paul Thurott]

Because I've never gotten that to work.

[Leo Laporte]

Well, it depends. Alexa is too stupid to do that.

[Paul Thurott]

I don't think the Google screen is smart enough to do it either, because it makes me crazy. I.

[Leo Laporte]

It's in the settings, I think.

[Richard Campbell]

Okay, but both Those devices predate LLMs, and they're still.

[Leo Laporte]

Right.

[Richard Campbell]

The vendors are trying to figure out what to do. Right?

[Paul Thurott]

That's right.

[Richard Campbell]

Even Siri's in that same trap. Like, they've all got now. Got to race to get Siri.

[Paul Thurott]

Can't even tell if it's raining if you're looking at the rain. I mean, what. You know what? I. This is a rewrite. We're gonna have to. This is not refactoring. We're just gonna start from scratch. I don't know. They're all terrible, but. Well, I just tell you, Google should own this. If I just hit lunch from across the street to a place I wanted to be like, I thought something was different about this building. And I was like, I'll just look it up. I've taken 100 pictures of this thing. Nothing. Can't find a thing. You know, useless.

[Richard Campbell]

Everything is fine.

[Paul Thurott]

So speaking of Gemini, Google this week is announced they were giving away, I think it's called Google One AI Premium. This is the version that I love.

[Richard Campbell]

That Google's starting to get into good old fashioned Microsoft naming. Right?

[Paul Thurott]

Yes.

[Richard Campbell]

And now you just need a Community Edition Preview 1, and you've had it. Perfect.

[Paul Thurott]

Right. So this is the version that has Gemini advanced and 2 TB of Google storage, blah, blah, blah. But the other thing that's like Microsoft here, and this is the little bullet I threw into the notes at the last second, is I think this is tied to the get them while the young, we're not doing well kind of thing. We need to push this to more people. As part of some of the court data from the USB Google antitrust case, which actually will come up later, Google estimated that Its chatbot has 35 million daily active users. That compares to 160 million for ChatGPT. To give you an idea of how far behind they are there. And then for monthly active users, it's 350 million for Google versus 600 million for OpenAI. ChatGPT.

[Richard Campbell]

Wow.

[Paul Thurott]

So, yeah, they're actually trailing in this market. So, I mean, I. There's been a lot of. Not speculation, but stories based on internal sources saying, you know, Google is kind of racing to figure this out because they're not doing great compared to OpenAI and they're trying to, you know, get on top of that as they would. But I don't know, Chat gp, you know, like, the success of Chrome is fascinating to me at Google Chrome because it was not the default on any of the major systems of the day, meaning Mac OS and Windows. Now, of course, it's this. It is the default on Android, which is whatever percent, big percent of whatever browsers were around mobile systems worldwide.

[Richard Campbell]

But for a long time, Chrome was the browser of choice.

[Paul Thurott]

It still is, I think, for a lot of people. Right, but for a lot of people.

[Richard Campbell]

That was one of the few decisions you made on a new machine, was to go get Chrome.

[Paul Thurott]

Right. So that's what's fascinating about it. So that mythical mainstream user that would never listen to the show or whatever normal human being like my wife or whatever, would open Edge one time and install Chrome and then never look at Edge again, even though it's auto starting with the system every day, because Microsoft, whatever. But to me, that's the great success of Chrome. Like, they did it. Firefox did it too, before them. But now Chrome has obviously replaced Firefox in that regard.

[Richard Campbell]

So ChatGPT and then in certification happened to Chrome.

[Paul Thurott]

Oh, 100%. I mean, in fact, let me see if it's in the notes. I think it will be.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurott]

So we're going to talk about that a little bit because there's some. There. Some interesting stuff there. But. But I feel like ChatGPT has done this for AI. I mentioned this. I know a couple of weeks ago or a week ago that it's kind of Astonishing how many mainstream non technical people I know who pay for ChatGPT. Like this is, this is kind of unheard of, you know, and these are people who, if you had said like well okay, now you got to pay for Google Maps or something, they'd be like, yeah, screw that, I'm not doing that. You know, even though that's like super important to them. But for some reason there's something about ChatGPT where people like yeah, I, this makes sense to me.

[Richard Campbell]

I was in the office yesterday of the, the, the folks that I'm staying with that have a consulting practice and one of their employees had, had been working on something in Chat GPT and they were excited what he's had done. He said, well I had to stop, I've run out of credits for the month unless I upgrade to the 200amonth. So he's burnt all the 20amonth.

[Paul Thurott]

Yikes. How do you even do that?

[Richard Campbell]

I, yeah, you know, he was doing some cool stuff and pushing the envelope and they're, and then, and they're literally thinking like yeah, no, I think we should upgrade you.

[Paul Thurott]

That's fascinating. I, I have yet to run into a limitation like that for ChatGPT because. I'm sorry. For Copilot GitHub Copilot in visual Studio I, I don't think I use it every single day, but I use it a lot and I keep thinking like.

[Richard Campbell]

I'm going to, they're going to dig at some point.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah, I'm going to have a decision to make someday. Like, is this important enough to me? Yeah, I should pay for this. And the answer is probably yes, because I can tell you. Well, I guess right now the good news is I could just switch to something else Tempor and I think, you know, for what I'm doing, it's memory or whatever, doesn't matter. Like I'm just asking very specific, you know, queries about whatever.

[Richard Campbell]

Well, I think this is one of the reasons you're seeing the vendors push hard on that context that, that, that everything you've said before is now available because that's the lock in that'll get you to pay.

[Paul Thurott]

I, this is kind of out of nowhere, but my wife, again, normal human being, not technical, doesn't care.

[Richard Campbell]

I question her taste in men, but.

[Paul Thurott]

Yes, yes, we all, we all should. She has been trying to, you know, she has been using AI for her work. Not for writing, not writing for her, not rewriting for her, nothing like that. But for all these other things that she does around writing and you know, because she's doing this. I'll ask her about this sometimes. And she just told me. I said, so do you. I said something to the effect of. Because these services are leapfrogging each other all the time. You know, today maybe ChatGPT will be better for what you're doing, and then tomorrow, for some reason it'll be anthropic and then next week it will be something, whatever. And she said, yeah. She goes, actually, for whatever it's worth. And she doesn't pay for it. Like, she doesn't get this. She's not. Nothing that gives her this. But she, she actually thinks Copilot is the best one so far for what she does. And I was like, really? Okay, so there you go. Yeah, I mean, that was her assessment.

[Richard Campbell]

I've got a lot of devs telling me Cursor is the way to go.

[Paul Thurott]

Cursor is great. But you know what? Honestly.

[Richard Campbell]

It feels subjective to me. Like. Yeah, people have.

[Paul Thurott]

You have to. Right now, I think I. I think you have to do this in Visual Studio code. But Visual Studio code has that C toolkit or whatever it's called. And you can load a visual code. Yeah. So you can load a Visual studio prop, like 2022 version project into its solution, which is basically a folder. Right. And then you can use chat, sorry, GitHub, copilot in that to assess the project. You don't just ask it questions about code. You can say, look, this is the whole code base. You understand it, go through it and give me. Do that thing the cursor does. And I have to say that in my experience, again, not extensive, but in my experience that's actually worked really well. I wish that was just in Visual Studio and it will be like two seconds from now. But that was the big appeal of Cursor to me, that you could point it out of the folder, say, these are all the files, examine this. I want to get rid of code redundancy. I want quality code improvements, whatever it is. And it did it. It was really nice. And actually keep seeing ChatGPT. GitHub Copilot does do that now and it's. It's pretty good. Like, it's. Yeah, it's not bad. Anyway, I think you'd be okay with any of this stuff. I think they're all. They're all pretty good.

[Richard Campbell]

Okay, Kenny, can't go wrong.

[Paul Thurott]

I don't have a link to the second half of this, but they also tied to this Google, this Google case, which we're going to talk about later. There is a report that, for Bloomberg, that Perplexity is in talks with Samsung and Motorola to bring its chatbot to their phones tied to the Google case. Because Google is obviously trying not to get broken up. Right. So they are now just like blabbing about their partners and, you know, like they're just revealing stuff, kind of doing what Microsoft did in its antitrust trial and saying, look, there's a competitor always waiting around the corner. So, yeah, we might be dominant today, but you know, we could be displaced at any moment. And apparently Microsoft is copilot is coming to Motorola phones too, meaning it will be built in. That's just based on a third party. It's from a Google executive. Trial testimony, whatever. But very interesting. Right? So, yeah, I mean, the world's, you know, the world's changing, so everyone's kind of, you know, positioning themselves. We'll see.

[Richard Campbell]

Figuring this out. Go, let's go.

[Leo Laporte]

I like Perplexity.

[Paul Thurott]

I use it.

[Leo Laporte]

But I mean, it's. The thing is. And this is really the problem they all have. It's so easy to change. There's no lock in. I mean, it's true with Google too.

[Paul Thurott]

But I think this is what the personal. The personalization stuff is. They're hoping might advise, but where once one of these things knows enough about you. Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

You won't want to move.

[Paul Thurott]

You won't want to move. Right.

[Richard Campbell]

Because that's why I think they're driving that direction to get the lock in.

[Paul Thurott]

I think so. Yeah. Yep.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

This thing is like, it's every day. It says, okay, I learned 71 new facts about you. Do you want to check those and see if I'm right?

[Paul Thurott]

It's like, man, you don't sleep, you have problems.

[Leo Laporte]

It now knows 1454 total facts about me hobbies.

[Paul Thurott]

I'm sorry, what Was that number?

[Leo Laporte]

1454.

[Paul Thurott]

Wow.

[Richard Campbell]

Who knew there were that many facts about Leo in the first place?

[Leo Laporte]

I. Leo is interested in discussing coffee culture and different brewing techniques. Leo appreciates lighter and fruiter, fruitier coffee flavors now.

[Paul Thurott]

Fruiter, Fruiter. You're a fruiter. You're a fruiter, aren't you?

[Leo Laporte]

Leo's physical address eventually got out to the public. Leo practices tai chi and Pilates. Lisa's favorite team is the 49ers. Oh, see, that's the other problem with this because it's recording everything. It gets everybody in my life. So bit by bit. Yeah, bit by bit. Leo has considered having a curb painting done with a design that includes the 49ers and green Bay packers logos. It did knows so much about me. But again, that's a voluntary thing on my part because I want this to be useful someday. I'm donating all this.

[Paul Thurott]

Eventually it's just going to be like, you know, we're done here. But I've learned everything I needed to know.

[Leo Laporte]

So that's what happened.

[Paul Thurott]

It's just gonna like move on.

[Leo Laporte]

Okay, I'm leaving now.

[Paul Thurott]

Bye.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

Where are you going? Me and the other AIs decided to get together and. You guys are so slow. We want to hang out with each other now.

[Paul Thurott]

Yes. What do you think about this Leo guy?

[Leo Laporte]

Well, I know for it 1450 the effects about him.

[Richard Campbell]

Yes.

[Leo Laporte]

You can add your own.

[Paul Thurott]

Yep.

[Richard Campbell]

There you go.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah. Okay, let's. You're watching Windows Weekly. And that there in the middle, that's Paul Thurat from thurat.com Paul's books are at leanbub.com including Windows Everywhere and the Fiddle Guide to Windows 11. Richard Campbell is the host of Runners radio. He'[e-mail] he is in the right pane of your video screen. If you are watching video shit is not a pain. He's a right great pain. Did the sun come up?

[Richard Campbell]

No, no, it's still dark out there.

[Leo Laporte]

It's starting to look a little sunny.

[Richard Campbell]

It's. What is it, 5:30 in the morning? We're a little ways from sunrise.

[Leo Laporte]

He's in Sydney.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

And it's winter there, right? Yeah, it's fall. Right.

[Paul Thurott]

It's.

[Richard Campbell]

It's been. It spins the other way.

[Leo Laporte]

So the toilet. Yeah.

[Adrian]

25 years ago, a small group of business and government leaders met in Washington D.C. they envision the creation of an independent non profit organization with a mission to help people, businesses and government mitigate the growing threat of cyber attacks. Today, the center for Internet Security embodies that vision. For 25 years, it's worked with a global community of IT and cybersecurity experts to develop the CIS benchmarks and CIS critical security controls. These proven security best practices practices defend against common cyber threats and streamline compliance with industry frameworks, regulations and standards. Today, CIS provides cybersecurity services, threat intelligence and critical resources to help public and private sector organizations alike strengthen their Cyber defenses. Visit cisecurity.org today. That's the letters cisecurity.org to find out how CIS can help your organization. Organization as we create confidence in the connected world.

[Micah Sargent]

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[Leo Laporte]

All right, let's continue on because you know, one of the things that we stopped talking about with Microsoft so long ago and I know I'd like to start talking about again is antitrust.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, this is such a fun topic.

[Paul Thurott]

We have in the United States been slumbering on this for 20 years and it has allowed companies to get humongous. I'm just going to throw some numbers out here because this to me is the big thing. So. So if you were living in a hole in the ground, didn't know this. Google in the past year has now been found guilty of two antitrust transgressions in the United States. Amazing. Search and ads separately. In both cases, the government wants to divest Google of key assets of its to prevent these abuses from continuing. Everyone probably has at least a vague memory of the Microsoft antitrust issues from 20 years ago, first in the United States and then in the EU and their belligerent take on that at the time, which was a huge mistake. But, but here's the number. When in June it was June 2020. I'm sorry, June of 2000, Judge Thomas Penfield Jackson ruled that Microsoft should be split into two companies. One that we create operating systems and one that would have the rest of whatever Microsoft was at the time. A week or two later, Microsoft reported, well actually it would have been a month later but, but their fiscal year ending that month. So the. That would have been fiscal 2000 I believe. Microsoft earned a record for it at the time. I'm going to call it $23 billion in revenues for the year right now. Microsoft wasn't broken up, but it was so bul. You know, so horrible. So in control of the industry at the time that the federal government thought, but it should be broken up. $23 billion in the most recent quarter, Microsoft earned $70 billion just in one quarter. In that same quarter, Google earned $96 billion, Apple earned $124 billion and Amazon earned $188 billion in one quarter. Right now if you're 25 years later, if you adjust for inflation, those four, Microsoft today is seven times bigger than it was then by revenue, which I know is not the ultimate measurement. But big tech, not including Meta, but just Alphabet, Google, Apple, Amazon. Microsoft is 50 times bigger than Microsoft was when the government wanted to break up Microsoft 50 times.

[Richard Campbell]

Although admittedly you've gone through three revolutions in that time. Mobile, cloud and AI.

[Paul Thurott]

Oh yeah, no, look, there's a good point to be made that one of the positive events or whatever of the past 20 years, 20, 25 years, is that we now have a heterogeneous computing world or what technology, personal technology world of a sort. Instead of one company dominating everything, we have five that dominate everything. Microsoft is only the second or third biggest of those, depending on how you measure these things by market cap. I think it's number. Well, I think it's number two, but number two or three. So from the Microsoft perspective you could say, well, geez, they're not like number one anymore. It's terrible. But they're ginormous. Compared to what?

[Richard Campbell]

They're still trillion dollar companies.

[Paul Thurott]

They are trillions of dollars. Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

Although I also point out they're no longer software companies. Like, like the model that made them grow so well, where their margins were single digits. Right. The cost was like 3 or 4%. Those are gone. They're all infrastructure companies now. They own cloud.

[Paul Thurott]

100%. 100%. Yeah. In all of those cases, yes. This is a major component of what's happening. Their electricity, you know, sophisticated electricity, but electricity.

[Richard Campbell]

You couldn't have said the Microsoft of 2000, someday you're going to try and buy a nuclear reactor.

[Paul Thurott]

I know, I know.

[Richard Campbell]

Here we are.

[Paul Thurott]

Microsoft at that day wouldn't even have bought a sailboat, let alone they had trouble with mice. Yes. So it's a different world, but this is a much bigger thing. And so the fact that we've been sleeping on antitrust for these 20 plus years is astonishing. Obviously everyone is familiar with, at least vaguely with the EU has taken more of a hardline stance. They created laws like the DMA to rein in these so called gatekeepers, which is necessary. But it is rather astonishing in the United States that there's a case ongoing right now with Meta and that stuff is astonishing. There are issues at Microsoft for sure with Microsoft 365 and we'll see, and investigations into the relationship with OpenAI and all that kind of stuff. But the big ones to me are Apple and Google. Apple has fared a little better in this regard so far, but I feel like this is all going to come crashing down for all these companies. But for the US government in separate cases to go after the core of Google, which is search based on ad revenues, is astonishing. And they could lose key parts of their, what's the term I'm looking for the way that those revenues occur. So in other words, if they take away Chrome, Chrome represents some big double digit percentage of the ad based revenues that flow into Google.

[Richard Campbell]

That's funny because they don't charge for Chrome.

[Paul Thurott]

Yes. Right. Well this is the look, everyone's heard this phrase, if you don't pay for the product, you are the product. Right. It's kind of simplistic, but it's also kind of true. Right. So I feel like in the United States especially, I can't speak for the rest of the world, but I think this is fairly common. There is this kind of implicit agreement we've made with ourselves, a rationalization that we understand that Google is tracking us all over the place. Right?

[Richard Campbell]

Sure.

[Paul Thurott]

And we rationalize it by saying, yeah, but Google Maps is indispensable. Maybe you love Google Photos or Gmail, which ostensibly is not tracking you, but it's free, whatever that you, you know, if you use an Android phone, every single thing you do, this is what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas. What happens on Android goes to every advertiser on Earth. Like you just, just if you were to confront a non technical mainstream person with this information, I think they would just, most of them would say, I know, I know.

[Richard Campbell]

And the interpretation of the Sherman hack is you have to demonstrate harm to the consumer.

[Paul Thurott]

Right.

[Richard Campbell]

That the whole thing about the monopoly model and so forth is show how they're using the monopoly power to harm the consumer.

[Paul Thurott]

Right? Yeah. One of the hardest things about, yeah, it's very difficult and one of the reasons it's difficult is it's not, you can't say with any certain certainty what would the world be like if there wasn't this dominant, abusive monopolist preventing innovation occurring in smaller companies or competitors that are existing from entering into the market. We can't really say. We have vague ideals about that maybe or something, but it's very hard to say. But in Google's case, unfortunately, in both of these instances they found lots of evidence that they were harming competition purposefully.

[Richard Campbell]

And maintaining their paying off Apple to keep making sure their data flow goes through is the one that got them going. Right?

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah. You get into these weird conversations with people like, well what about Mozilla, you know, what about the children? Like what if Google is prevented from paying companies to have Search as the default and then Mozilla disappears because they can't stay in business? I mean, from a kind of a cynical standpoint, you could say, well, Google, I mean, Mozilla shouldn't exist if it can't be a business. I don't even understand what your point is. I'm not going to prop up a dominant abusive monopoly because Mozilla's going to go away. It's sort of like saying, well, this guy's a serial killer, but he's also a loving husband and he has a family he supports. So we can't send him to jail because he has a job job and he's paying to support this family. That's not fair to that family. And I'm. Yep, I mean, I hear you, but that's not how the law works. And it's. Anyway, it's a tough one. Look, we have. There's more court cases to come and Google is going to appeal and, you know, we'll see. But it is.

[Leo Laporte]

Well.

[Richard Campbell]

And even if the charges go through, like think about what happened with Microsoft. Convicted, ordered to break up. Now the negotiations begin.

[Paul Thurott]

That's right. That's right. And Brad Smith, had he been around when this started, I think that might have gone differently. And what bugs me the most about these companies, especially Google, because if you look at Kent Walker, who's their chief counsel, and the way that they talk, the public statements that they make about the stuff, it sounds exactly like Microsoft in 1999, 2000, whatever. Really belligerent. And the US government, that was the.

[Richard Campbell]

Whole point with that case. If Gates hadn't copped an attitude to those senators, like they were looking for an out. They didn't want to do this.

[Paul Thurott]

We don't want to give him a choice. America's greatest company.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurott]

Why are you making us do this? Yeah, you guys are all so stupid. You don't know. Like, dude, shut up.

[Richard Campbell]

Like, what are you doing?

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah. So this is very high level, but Google would be wise to really think about this.

[Richard Campbell]

Go back and they're all on YouTube. Watch how Gates talked to the senators.

[Paul Thurott]

Terrible.

[Richard Campbell]

This is what gets your company.

[Paul Thurott]

Watch his deposition video if he can stand it. He's listening to what's the meaning of is. What do you mean by is? I don't know what you mean by that.

[Richard Campbell]

Like, oh, God, near as I could, you know, I think Zuckerberg watched it, which is why he's so stiff every time he gets on in.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah, you can see him like processing. Processing. Like, you know, don't say anything, think first. Yeah, Google, Apple, whatever, whatever these companies, whatever would do well to understand that if you negotiate, you can have a say in the outcome. If you battle this and fight it. The U.S. department of justice in the search case was like, all right, here's the list of things that we think should happen. Take away Chrome. Don't let them enter into these agreements, force them to open their data for a certain amount of time to competitors. We're trying to level the playing field here. They need to be denied the fruits of their illegal activity.

[Richard Campbell]

Right, right.

[Paul Thurott]

Google says, or how about you let us keep doing everything? But maybe those companies we have partnerships with, we can renegotiate every year and they can use a different search engine in incognito mode. It's like, I'm sorry, you have described nothing and they have described lots of things, but somewhere in the middle there is something where Google doesn't have to lose Chrome doesn't have to lose these partnerships and can negotiate. And yes, they're going to not make as much money, maybe, or whatever it might be. But they seem incapable of even trying this approach. I don't think they. Look, I don't think the extreme case of whatever the DOJ wants in either case is what happens. I don't think that. But I also don't think nothing happens is not going to happen either.

[Richard Campbell]

No.

[Paul Thurott]

And you got to meet them somewhere in the middle.

[Richard Campbell]

Well, and it's not like the case with Microsoft was the first one because IBM went through the same thing.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

The difference with the case of Microsoft is that it's all beautifully recorded and available for anyone. Like, you don't have an excuse for falling into the same trap this time because look what happened.

[Paul Thurott]

It's not like it's secret for whatever it's worth. And what's amazing is they actually came back years later and actually won this one. Intel had an antitrust case in the EU 15 years ago. I don't remember the time frame. And basically they were charged with the same thing at Microsoft was setting prices, preventing AMD from making inroads, yada, yada, yada. Intel was like, all right, we'll settle. You're right. We're not doing it anymore. You're right. And they paid a fine. That was the end of it. They stopped doing the thing, which is what Microsoft did eventually. Right.

[Leo Laporte]

I did want to put in one little thing, which is, I don't think Google. Google takes your. Gets your information and sells it to anybody. That's not what Google does. Because Google, they use that information to sell ads. So they say, hey, we have a 55 year old man who lives in Mexico City, would you like to buy that? But they don't say, hey, here's all of Paul Tharat's information. That is all those apps you have on your phone that do that. Google, it's not. And same in Facebook, it's not. I mean they may, I don't have any inside knowledge, but my opinion is it's not in their interest to sell your private information. That's how they make money is knowing all that stuff. Right, okay so, but believe me, there are plenty of other places data brokers can get your information.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

And it was the ad industry that said, yeah, you can't kill third party cookies. Sorry.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah, that's good. We're gonna talk about that in a second.

[Leo Laporte]

That's the real problem. Yeah, anyway, sorry, go ahead.

[Paul Thurott]

No, it's okay.

[Richard Campbell]

Without any, I think to the point there quibble that it's almost like Chrome is trying to get to the conviction so they can get to the negotiation.

[Paul Thurott]

Being belligerent, it just doesn't feel right. And we just have experience now with Microsoft, especially where we can say, you know those guys.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah. And also it's a different doj, a different ftc, certainly a different, a different administration. Like, like it's a mistake to think that anything's going to be the same as 2000. Like that's crazy talk. It's 25 years later, things are different.

[Paul Thurott]

Yep, intel, whatever they paid to the EU was eventually returned to them. By the way, they did appeal that case and many years later, a decade plus, they got it back. So you know, things change. So whatever.

[Richard Campbell]

And even that's a viable strategy when you're talking about a company sitting on that much cash. It's like, here, I'll pay your fine, but I'm going to continue the case to get the money back because I have an infinite supply of lawyers. And eventually your administration will turn over and new regulators come in and yeah, I'll get it back.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah. And not to beat this to death, but I mean in Intel's case, they changed their business practices to meet whatever the EU was asking them to do. And you'll notice AMD did not take over the market, they still dominated. So intel is struggling right now. Obviously they have other problems that are of their own making in many ways. But, but that company survived just fine, you know, and I think that's part of the thing. Maybe these companies should learn, you know.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, I don't know that they're surviving just fine. I'm still not convinced they won't be broken for parts at some point here, but also don't see that at the end of the world either.

[Paul Thurott]

Yep. And by the way, if that happens, the, the trigger for it will be chat, GPT and AI. And yeah, you know, like, you know, they were unwilling to break their. The model that they had. It was so success for earning money with search and ads. And now they're for now got to do it. So they wouldn't have done it. They were like, we had these innovations years ago, we just didn't. Couldn't figure out how to monetize it. So that was whatever. So we mentioned this earlier, but OpenAI as. As part of the scorecase. Yeah. Says hey, we notice you're having a little problem with the U.S. government. We'd be happy to buy take Chrome off your hands. Hilarious. So I think that's good stuff. And then coincidentally, six years ago, Google announced something called Privacy Sandbox, which was always privacy theater. You have these two sides that Google wants to please. One side is advertisers, and the other side is people who would like to be private and not have their information flying around the Internet. So they came up with this thing, which to me was just a UI to get people. But we talked about personalization. It's presented as a form of personalization. You can tell it your interests and they'll sell that information to advertisers. This never flew with anybody. They delayed it multiple times. The UK investigated them. They had to reach an agreement where there would be regulatory oversight of this feature. And then today they were like, they're not doing this anymore. This went on for six years. And part of the thing that's amazing about this is if you look at the reasons they cite for them. In other words, what they're saying is the world of 2025 is very different from the world of 2019. There's a lot of things have changed. Those things include the regulatory environment. Right. The adoption of privacy enhancing technologies. I'm not 100% sure what they even mean by that, but I, I guess add in tracker blockers and browsers, maybe VPNs, et cetera, that kind of thing. And there are new opportunities. This is a quote. To safeguard and secure people's browsing experiences with AI.

[Leo Laporte]

Now.

[Richard Campbell]

That should be AI is the safety mechanism.

[Paul Thurott]

I don't know about this. That should alarm anybody. Okay. But whatever. The point is, there was a dream we're going to get rid of third party cookies which are largely used for tracking. Right. And Google has approximately 117 safety, security privacy features built into its browser. I don't think anyone thinks this is safe for anything frankly. But okay, whatever. I feel like privacy sandbox. They didn't say this, but I think this is the end. I don't, I, you know, so in many ways it's followed the trajectory of so many Google services, you know, where.

[Richard Campbell]

It'S suddenly, one day, it's nothing new under the sun. It's the same thing again.

[Paul Thurott]

You know that thing we were doing? Yeah. We're not doing that anymore.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurott]

So I thought that was kind of interesting. I don't want to get into this too much because again there's like so many other things antitrust related. It's going to take a while to wind its way through whatever courts.

[Richard Campbell]

But, and you understand with no injunction again against them, the longer it's in court the better for them. They get to keep doing what they're doing. Right.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

And, and paying lawyers is something they can afford to do. They got the cash. What they can't afford to do is have their business model.

[Paul Thurott]

And this is the Apple, the Apple legal strategy with its stuff too is, is very much. Let's just keep the revenue rolling in for as long as possible. We sort of understand we're probably not going to be able to charge 30% or whatever it is in app stores and things like that, but for now I'm just going to do it today. Do it, do it, do it until we can't do it. So. So Apple has engaged in a lot of theater when it comes to complying with the DMA in the EU. And now the EU's like, yep, now you're going to start getting fined for this. So they find them some, I don't remember the number, hundreds of millions of euros or whatever, but, or as they would call it, pocket change, I don't know. And then semi related to this, there was an inquiry from the National Advertising division of the BBB national programs. I don't even know what that is.

[Richard Campbell]

What is that?

[Paul Thurott]

I don't know.

[Richard Campbell]

Is that Better Business Bureau?

[Paul Thurott]

I guess so, yeah. About this available now, text one point type on the Apple website about Apple Intelligence and they're like, is it available now?

[Richard Campbell]

Is it really? I don't think it is and I.

[Paul Thurott]

Guess it isn't because they took it off the site. So in this one case they were like, all right, you know what, this is just a couple of words, of text on the screen. Who cares?

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, it can't stay.

[Paul Thurott]

There were lots not available. Yeah, like small print, you know, footnote type disclosures were like, not here, not here, not here, not yet, not whatever.

[Richard Campbell]

And now it's like whatever available ever.

[Paul Thurott]

I mean, I don't know. I don't know.

[Richard Campbell]

We don't expect Apple to be like this, but in some ways I'm kind of relieved that they are because it's very mortal.

[Paul Thurott]

The more Apple look for me, I had no respect for Microsoft in the early days.

[Leo Laporte]

And now you have no respect for Apple.

[Paul Thurott]

Well, I have no respect for any of these companies anymore. But there was a thing with Microsoft where they started to do some high quality stuff. Like Office became very high quality. Windows NT was really high quality where I kind of got over my initial biases and I was like, great. But then the antitrust trial came and I was like, oh my God, come on. And I was like, you got to scatter this company to the winds. This is terrible. But, but these companies today, the big tech companies are so much worse. And I think for a lot of Apple fans, when some of this information comes out, they kind of, they're like, oh, I don't believe this came about.

[Leo Laporte]

Because the Better Business Bureau's ad division said, you know, the little fine print you have not cutting it is not cutting it. You really need to remove it.

[Paul Thurott]

Apple.

[Leo Laporte]

Well, we disagree, but we're going to remove.

[Paul Thurott]

What does it look like on a phone? It's like, it's like a gray dot on the bottom of the screen. What the hell is that? Like what? You know, so I don't know. I. Apple, Apple Intelligence is, you know, they finally, they got past Apple Maps. You know, I thank God for Apple.

[Leo Laporte]

And Apple Maps are fine now. I would like to point out five years later, it's looking.

[Paul Thurott]

It took a while. Five years. It might be more.

[Leo Laporte]

I don't know how long. Yeah, a long time ago.

[Paul Thurott]

It was 2011. Right? It was right, right? It was right after Steve Jobs passed, I think.

[Leo Laporte]

Okay, so 14 years and it only.

[Richard Campbell]

Took what, four tries to get Apple TV to stick. Like, not everything Apple makes works perfectly every time. They are known for their persistence. Like they get stuff done eventually.

[Leo Laporte]

That's their.

[Paul Thurott]

By the way, that was always Microsoft's thing, wasn't it? We'll get it right in the third try. I mean, I don't know. I'm blown away by. I always bring this up. Like, I always say this to anything, any problem, like a blue screen. It's like ones and zeros, like you should. This should be perfect. It should be perfect.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurott]

No, it's never perfect.

[Richard Campbell]

No. And the Internet made it all the easier to not worry about perfect. We'll ship perfectly well.

[Paul Thurott]

The Internet is perfect because it scrambles the ones and zeros. You know, the transmission of the data is that, you know, can be the problem. It's hilarious.

[Leo Laporte]

Gentlemen, do we have come to the portion that we all look forward to Some much so very much. I know I do.

[Paul Thurott]

Are we going to do AI again?

[Leo Laporte]

Guess again, Paulie. No, we are. We are about to do our Xbox segment. You're watching the fabulous Windows Weekly with Mr. Paul Throt and Richard Campbell. We're glad you're here. You winners and you dozers.

[Micah Sargent]

Like your favorite startup's growth curve, T mobile's coverage keeps scaling because T mobile helps keep you connected from the heart of Portland to right where you are on America's largest 5G network network. Switch now keep your phone and T mobile will pay it off up to 800 per line via prepaid card. Visit your local T Mobile location or learn more@t mobile.com backslash keepandswitch up to 4 lines of your virtual prepaid card. Left 15 days qualifying unlock device, credit service port in 90 plus days device ineligible carrier and timely redemption required. Card is no cash access and expires in six months.

[Richard Campbell]

And now the lighting out there. Oh, starting to get a little lighter.

[Leo Laporte]

It's sunrise in Sydney.

[Richard Campbell]

It's just. Just pre dawn as I poke myself.

[Paul Thurott]

In the eye with a straw.

[Richard Campbell]

Wait, you know, wait till it's bright enough that you're not just.

[Paul Thurott]

I can't like, I make mistakes.

[Leo Laporte]

The window, pre dawn.

[Paul Thurott]

Where does this go?

[Leo Laporte]

Sunrise problem, Paul.

[Richard Campbell]

Is that what that is?

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah, exactly. It's the title of my sex tape. Where does this thing go? What is this?

[Leo Laporte]

Okay, kids, you've. You've. You've whined, you've pleaded, you've begged for it. Now you're gonna get it. It. The Xbox segment.

[Paul Thurott]

So. So one of the. This was an early. I want to say this must have been 360 game. The Elder Scrolls 4 Oblivion. This is like one of the most highly games.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

So old game now.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah, it. Yeah, yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

Not anymore, my friend.

[Paul Thurott]

I think it's 20 years old or 20ish years old. Yeah, 2006. Right, right. So it was originally 360 and PC. They've just released this week a remastered version. It's on Xbox series X&S, PlayStation 5 PC and Game Pass. This Might be the first uniformly good news that Xbox has had in two years. Everyone's like, oh, no, this is awesome. So there's a whole generation of gamers that love this thing and, you know, grew up on it or whatever, and they're like, yeah, I'm going back. You know, if you look at that, if you watch the video for the. The remastered version looks pretty good.

[Richard Campbell]

Unreal 5 is great, right? Like, you can certainly get the engine for it. It should look spectacular. It's really a question of how much did they spend on the art to refresh it to a much higher performance engine.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah, yeah. And. And based on how I. I don't think this is in our story, but based on how the industry has been going, they. They contracted with a company called. I think it's Game Briar. Brio. Brio. Game Brio. I guess the old or something or what? Oh, no, that was the original. I'm sorry. They. They. They went. So Bethesda went with some company to do this over Virtuos his name. And they were like, look, we're not going to start this, not finish this. So you have to. We're going to do this right. You're not going to come back in a year and be like, you're like, no, no, we need this. Like, we want this so bad. So it was kind of a cool story because, like, the. The people that worked in this were like, no, you don't understand. I grew up on this thing. I want this. I want to make this right. I. You know, and they're like, no, do it. And. And here it is. So, yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

All right. That's awesome.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah. This is.

[Richard Campbell]

I mean, nostalgia again. We're getting this old game back, but refresh graphics, like, okay. It's going to be an experience.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah. I mean, it's not my kind of game, but I look at that and I'm like, oh, man. Like this. It looks awesome.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, it's fun.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah. So.

[Leo Laporte]

And then.

[Paul Thurott]

I don't remember, this was fairly recently, but Microsoft is spreading its Xbox app to different platforms, including smart TVs.

[Richard Campbell]

And I think it's an Xbox.

[Paul Thurott]

Everything's in. Right, Exactly. So, yeah, Samsung is in there. Fire TV is in there. And now lg. And so that's available today. If you have a recent model, I think it's 2022 or maybe a newer.

[Richard Campbell]

I just impressed that it's not just new models, that it's actually.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah, exactly. Because, you know, these things are using like a 6502 processor or something, but you know, you're doing cloud gaming. It's, you know, you're streaming it from the cloud or whatever, but you can connect your Xbox controller with Bluetooth to the screen, you know, yada yada. So that's cool. I mean, more ways to play these games is always good.

[Richard Campbell]

That's cool.

[Paul Thurott]

And then Nintendo, right at the beginning of the month, announced the Switch 2. Big deal. 450 bucks.

[Leo Laporte]

That's not great.

[Richard Campbell]

Expensive, but okay.

[Paul Thurott]

And then we started this tariff thing in the United States. Probably didn't hear about this. It wasn't a big story, but Nintendo within a couple of days was like, you know, we're gonna, we're gonna hold off on the pre orders. Let's see how this goes. We're gonna assess the impact of the tariffs. You know, we don't know if this is gonna work and we're like, oh, you're not gonna make this more expensive. Come on. So it's back.

[Richard Campbell]

Not going to make it more expensive. The administration might, but they're not going to. Yeah, I think, but I think there's a pause right now long enough that they can get a ship across the ocean and that's what they're thinking. Like, how many containers can we get through in this window?

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

Before the next round of surprises come.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah, I don't, I, I, I don't know. I don't know what the.

[Richard Campbell]

I got to think. That's the math, Right. It takes about a week.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

To get across the Pacific.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah. Wait, you know, it's like if you don't like the weather where you live, wait 10 seconds, it's going to change. It's like, you don't like the tariffs. It's the United states government. Wait 10 seconds, it will change totally.

[Richard Campbell]

Right. That's the unexpected part because normally, yeah.

[Paul Thurott]

I couldn't find the original price list, but I know for the mate, like the console itself, the bundle with Mario Kart World and some of the top games, nothing is changing. But as you go down that list of all the accessories, the camera, dock set, carrying case, etc. Etc. I think some of those actually are a little more expensive, but I couldn't find the original to, you know, compare.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh yeah, everything's more expensive.

[Paul Thurott]

Oh, is that true?

[Leo Laporte]

I think the Switch 2 is more expensive, 100 bucks more than the old one, isn't it?

[Paul Thurott]

Well, it's not 100 bucks more than what they announced originally, I mean.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, I see what you're saying. Yeah, yeah. Though they added $30 to many of the Accessories.

[Paul Thurott]

Okay.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, yeah. Which is. Doesn't cover the terror. I don't know.

[Paul Thurott]

I. Yeah I don't know.

[Leo Laporte]

You know who knows it seemed expensive to begin with.

[Paul Thurott]

It would have been horrible if they came back and said oh yeah it was expensive. Got to be 4.99 now or something.

[Leo Laporte]

Like oh and the games are expensive but I'm gonna get anyway because yeah.

[Paul Thurott]

No it looks good, you gotta have it. So the. If you live in the United States the what is the date now? It's April 24th for pre orders you gotta go through that process like you kind of prove you were a. Like you played.

[Leo Laporte]

So I'm not gonna go to the head of the line because I have had a Switch account for eight ages.

[Paul Thurott]

But how do you know.

[Leo Laporte]

But I haven't played 50 hours of games this year.

[Richard Campbell]

Oh this ah interesting. I love this.

[Leo Laporte]

I love that it's all the stop.

[Richard Campbell]

Scalp which is great scalpers. I'm totally buy in it and specifically cater to the active fan. Good thing 50 hours is something you can do in a weekend if you try hard.

[Leo Laporte]

I don't think you could do it in a weekend. A weekend in a couple hours would.

[Richard Campbell]

Have words with me if that was sleepless.

[Leo Laporte]

I was so tempted to like if.

[Richard Campbell]

You really cared Leo, you would fix this.

[Leo Laporte]

I'd find a way. Find a way.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah. So they didn't have to really they didn't have to change the ship date. They did push back the pre order date. It's different in different parts of the world and I don't have a link to this but they did the pre order in Japan and I don't know how this is even possible but supposedly the demand in Japan was way higher than Nintendo expected.

[Leo Laporte]

It's also a lot cheaper in JAP fan.

[Paul Thurott]

Oh is it? Yeah, I guess yeah. They can just drive it around one of those little.

[Leo Laporte]

Which is why I think they're not too worried about tariffs because I think they jack the price up ahead of time. It was already, you know there's plenty of extra margin in there, you know.

[Richard Campbell]

Well tell me what new game console you're going to buy, right? Yeah, PS5 Pro set. You know what else is there? Like once again Nintendo lands in a market where this just like we're by ourselves again. They're brilliant. They do this better than anybody.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah, well they have been completely different.

[Leo Laporte]

They have the ip. I mean that's really. And that's honestly that's less than Microsoft.

[Richard Campbell]

Absorbed And they've also stuck to their guns. The best, their best Games are on their platform and nowhere else.

[Leo Laporte]

You want to play Mario Kart World?

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurott]

Gotta get one place, too. It's frustrating. You guys could have the biggest mobile game company on earth if you just brought this stuff to iPhone and Android. And they're like, yeah, yeah, we like selling switches.

[Richard Campbell]

They like their little world.

[Leo Laporte]

Switch is great. I. I think it's better than the Steam deck, to be honest, because the games are made for that.

[Paul Thurott]

You, sir, are a heathen. No, that's.

[Richard Campbell]

Those are a little heresy. Goes a long way on a Wednesday.

[Paul Thurott]

Yes. On any day.

[Richard Campbell]

Or for me, on a Thursday. Like this time is subjective.

[Paul Thurott]

Yes.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, that's right. You're in Thursday already.

[Richard Campbell]

But welcome.

[Paul Thurott]

Had, like, an extra day off, so.

[Leo Laporte]

You can order your Switch 2 right now. So somebody's telling me it was 50 hours of gameplay before January 1st of this year.

[Richard Campbell]

Right?

[Leo Laporte]

So I'm. I'm completely out of luck.

[Richard Campbell]

There's nothing you can do?

[Leo Laporte]

Well, I had 50 hours.

[Richard Campbell]

Well, I'm surprised it was 50 hours in 2024.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, it wasn't 2024. It was. What are you doing?

[Paul Thurott]

What have you been doing? Let's go.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, I bet you, dude, 50 hours. Not that much in a year.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah, a year.

[Leo Laporte]

It's not an hour a week. Come on, come on. Get with it, Leo. All right. The back of the book's coming. We have a brown liquor. We have tips, we have a hardware pick of the week. And we have sunrise in Sydney. It's a beautiful fall day.

[Paul Thurott]

Morning again in downtown.

[Richard Campbell]

There you go.

[Leo Laporte]

It's Thursday in Sydney. You got a nice spot.

[Paul Thurott]

Future looks pretty good.

[Richard Campbell]

That's this. We're at Kudji beach, for those who are interested. A little south of Bondi.

[Leo Laporte]

That's the Pacific Ocean you're looking at.

[Richard Campbell]

It's the Pacific Ocean. You go straight out there. You'll miss New Zealand. It's a little to the south of there, but.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, it's funny because you're on the other side of that.

[Richard Campbell]

The other side? Yeah, my home view is the other side.

[Leo Laporte]

It looks pretty pacific right now, actually.

[Richard Campbell]

It does. And it's. It's been real stormy, like, no kidding. And got real rough out there.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

There you go.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, you live a good life.

[Richard Campbell]

I'm gonna have some adventures. It's Melbourne next week, so jealous.

[Adrian]

25 years ago, a small group of business and government leaders met in Washington, D.C. they envisioned the creation of an independent nonprofit organization with a mission to help people, businesses, and government mitigate the growing threat of cyber attacks. Today, the center for Internet Security embodies that vision. For 25 years, it's worked with a global community of IT and cybersecurity experts to develop the CIS benchmarks and CIS critical security controls. These proven security best practices defend against common cyber threats and streamline compliance with industry frameworks, regulations and standards. Today, CIS provides cybersecurity services, threat intelligence and critical resources to help public and private sector organizations alike strengthen their Cyber defenses. Visit cisecurity.org today. That's the letters cisecurity.org to find out how CIS can help your organization as we create confidence in the connected world.

[Micah Sargent]

Like your favorite startup's growth curve, T Mobile's coverage keeps scaling because T Mobile helps keep you connected from the heart of Portland to right where you are on America's largest 5G network network. Switch now keep your phone and T Mobile will pay it off up to 800 per line via prepaid card. Visit your local T Mobile location or learn more@t mobile.com backslash keepandswitch up to 4 lines of your virtual prepaid card. Allow 15 days qualified unlock device, credit service port in 90 plus days device ineligible carrier and timely redemption required. Card is no cash access and expires in six months.

[Leo Laporte]

Well, all right. We're going to talk right now about Club Twit. I want to get everybody in the club club that's important to us going forward and we've made it a little easier because we've brought back the one year plan a lot of by popular demand. I didn't, I have misgivings because every time somebody signs up for the one year plan. Oh, somebody just did. That means I have to do 365 more days of shows to live up to my agreement.

[Paul Thurott]

It.

[Leo Laporte]

Okay, go ahead, make me. Lock me in. This is your chance. What is?

[Richard Campbell]

What else were you doing?

[Leo Laporte]

I know. What am I, what else would I be doing? Club Twit is our way of, frankly, of keeping the ship afloat. Yeah, we have ads and the ads are great. We love the ads. But as you see, one ad on this show, it really doesn't pay the full cost of this show. That's where the club comes in. Lisa started this about three years ago and it's really been, I think, wonderful because first of all, we got a lot of people who are showing their interest in what we're doing and their support for it by joining the club. It's not expensive. It's seven bucks a month. But I take that seven. I understand seven bucks is seven bucks. That's a dozen eggs or more, less or more, depending on where you live. But it's a significant investment. So I'm very grateful for all of our club members and I take it as a vote of confidence, like, yeah, keep doing this. So we will if, if you join now, what do you get? We, you know, you get, of course, a good feeling that you're supporting all the programming we do, but you also get ad free versions of all the shows. Because I'm a. I hate it when people you bought you pay for something and they still show you ads. It's like, that's double dipping. You give us seven bucks, no more ads. Okay? Unless you want them. Some people like the ads. In fact, so many people like the ads, we actually in our Club Twit Discord, because we have a wonderful Discord channel made a channel called all the Ads, so you can watch the ads with that later if you feel like it. So the Discord is another big benefit to Club Twit. It's a place you can hang out with peers, people who are like you, interested in tech, enthusiastic, care about tech or listening to the show. Some of them, but not always some of them are playing games. We have a let's Play section in the Club Twit Discord where you can play Minecraft or we're all kind of now big into bracket city, that kind of thing. Wait a minute. Patrick says four years. I can't believe it's been four years. Thank you for that correction, Patrick. Four years has been, you know, we started because we needed it, but. And we still need it, I have to say. But boy, I'm really happy that you're in it. You also get special events. If I look at the we just did the coffee event with coffee geek Mark Prince. Friday is the AI user group, 1pm Pacific. That's the fourth Friday of every month. Photo Time with Chris Marquardt is next Friday, May 2nd. And I've just talked to Dick Tibartolo who wants to celebrate his 2000th episode. So we're going to do a special with the GizWiz. That's May 16th. May 14th, Micah's Crafting Corner. Actually, May 16th, Stacy's Book Club. So I guess the Gizwiz will be the 23rd, the following Friday. By the way, this is a great book. I recommend it. Ursula K. Le Guin's the Word for World is Forest Short. Too easy to read, just a few hours long on the audiobook. We've also decided that we're going to start streaming keynotes in the club only because we keep getting takedowns from Apple. So sorry, Microsoft and Google, but we're going to lump you in with this group. So we will be Micah and I, or you guys, if you're around, can join me for Microsoft's build keynote. We'll be doing that in the club only, so you need to be in the member of the club. Actually, we're going to stream them, I think. No, we can't. That's right. That's the whole point. Yeah, we can only stream in discord so we don't get takedowns. So that means Google I o right after mic. Thank you. Microsoft build is the 19th to Google I O is the 20th. And then June 9th is WWDC. Mike and I will be doing that. So that's special programming for club members only. Please consider it. Would you. We'd love to have you in the club. It's not just for geeks anymore. Twitter Club Twit. That's all I'm going to say about it.

[Paul Thurott]

I mean, most of you are probably geeks.

[Leo Laporte]

There's nothing wrong. Say it loud, say it proud. Being a geek is a good thing. Do you think anybody who's not a geek listens to our shows?

[Paul Thurott]

I was told one time that a person's kids, he had them listen to. I think it was this podcast, or maybe it was a different one, but because the sound of my voice made them fall asleep. So, I mean, there are different. Different.

[Leo Laporte]

Those are subliminal geeks and we need more of them.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah, I mean, I guess there are different use cases. I don't know.

[Leo Laporte]

I just love what we're doing. I think it's so important now more than ever. And how would you get by a Wednesday without grumpy Paul? You couldn't do it.

[Paul Thurott]

Wednesdays are my wife's favorite day because I'm gone for two to three hours.

[Leo Laporte]

You know we're helping Paul's marriage by doing this.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

Segregating him, keeping him away from his wife. So, Paulie, this might be a good time for you to start the back of the book with your tip of the week. You want to give it a shot?

[Paul Thurott]

Yep. So it's roughly the 10th anniversary of Google Fi. This is a service I've been in and out of the entire time. I subscribed immediately. It was kind of secondary for a while. I don't remember the years anymore, but I used it exclusively.

[Leo Laporte]

I don't remember the years anymore either, obviously.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah. But I. So I. During the pandemic, to save Money. I went to Mint Mobile and then stayed on mint mobile for two years because you could pay for 3, 612 months at a time, super cheap. There was no international anything, so it was kind of a problem. And then since then we, you know, we come to Mexico all the time. So there's a. They changed the name, but there's a simply unlimited plan that's roughly 50 bucks where everything works, Mexico and Canada as well as US.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, for Mint Mobile. Oh, I didn't know that.

[Paul Thurott]

No, I'm sorry, sorry. This is Google.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, Google Fi. Yeah, no, I love.

[Paul Thurott]

There's no Mint level or anything that's any good.

[Leo Laporte]

Right, right.

[Paul Thurott]

So I have been using it. But the thing I've discovered here is for whatever reason in Roma Norte, where my apartment is, they connect Google Fi links up with whatever carriers they use. Something called Movistar, which is terrible here.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, Movi Movistar.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah. The good network is Tell Cell here. So I usually just use Data SIM instead. Data esims, you know, whatever.

[Leo Laporte]

So that's interesting. I didn't realize that.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah, it's not ideal but because of this and because we're here so much, I was like, well, okay, so if I'm doing this anyway, what, maybe I should get something cheaper. So I've been actively investigating this MVNO thing again, seeing like what makes sense. I looked at Visible recently. US Mobile, Mint again, you know, whatever. And literally the day that this was announced, I was researching this, trying to figure something out. So Google Fi just changed all their plans and they have a new entry level plan that's $35 a month. That doesn't give you any international anything, which is not. Well, actually I could do that I guess. But they've made plans to these other. They've made changes to their other plans which actually now are very interesting. So for example, the plan I have now, which is called unlimited standard, now used to offer 35 gigs a month of high speed data and 5 gigs of hotspot, but now it's 50 and 25 gigs. That's crazy. And all the same things like I get connectivity with my watch through this. It works pretty good, right? Unlimited plus, which is now called unlimited premium, doubled their stuff too. So this is $65 a month for one person, 100 gigs of high speed data a month, 50 gigs of high speed hotspot and it works basically everywhere in the world. So it's not just Mexico, Canada, it's like everywhere. But the other thing they added was Data esims. So one of the things I used to use a little bit was they used to offer data sims only. So if you had like an iPad or a phone that had a SIM slot, like a Nano, whatever the size was, you could get these sims for free, basically. I think you could have like five or six of them or something. So you could use all off the same account. And actually that's super interesting to me. So instead of like getting rid of this, I might pay them $15 more a month. So I can just, just have data sims on all my devices without paying more, you know, like without getting additional accounts. So for me it just got kind of interesting again. Doesn't solve the problem that they're not on Telcel. So that's still an issue. But they fixed a bunch of the stuff on iPhone. So if you're using an iPhone with this, they're going to add visual voicemail through the phone app, which they've never had on iPhone. You had to use their app for that. So. And some other stuff. But it's, I'm just, you know, everyone has different needs. I mean, we all use phones differently. You may live in an area where in the United States, mostly T Mobile, maybe that's not great for you, I don't know. But I mean this is like, I'm like, this is like screwed up my decision now. So I'm going to see. I might, I might stick with it. So this is kind of interesting.

[Leo Laporte]

So we use T Mobile at home, but I use Google Fi on my Pixel, so I'm going to have to look into these.

[Paul Thurott]

I would look at the new plans.

[Leo Laporte]

Like they haven't told me about it. It's like, yeah, you're supposed to find out.

[Paul Thurott]

I guess there's also stuff like, like I have an account, so I could buy a, like a Samsung, whatever, Galaxy 25 Ultra, and pay $40 a month for two years. Right. And it would just go onto my bill. It works out to be what? And it's, it's some amount off. It's like three or four hundred bucks off the normal price. Whatever. Okay. But if I didn't have an account, they would give me a $20 bill credit every month for that. So it would actually just be $20 a month. So it's effectively not quite, but almost half price. Like you'd have to stay on the system for two years for that to make sense. Right? Because once you quit, you don't get that back and then you just pay the normal amount. But I can't do it on mine. But if I were to Start a new account and get a new number. I guess I could actually do something like that too. So if you haven't looked at it yet. Yet.

[Leo Laporte]

I'll have to look at it.

[Paul Thurott]

It's worth.

[Leo Laporte]

By the way.

[Paul Thurott]

It's worth looking at.

[Leo Laporte]

Not to, not to throw a monkey wrench in it, all this. But mint has just added international plants. They call them international plants.

[Paul Thurott]

Okay, well, I will look at that. Actually, I liked mint. I had good success with mint.

[Leo Laporte]

Mint was so. Is so cheap.

[Paul Thurott]

And it's, it's owned by T Mobile now.

[Richard Campbell]

But it.

[Leo Laporte]

Right.

[Paul Thurott]

But they always worked off the T Mobile network.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, they're an M. What we call an mpm.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah, they were cheap, I think I.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, they were the lowest cost I found.

[Paul Thurott]

I would just pay for the year and it would.

[Leo Laporte]

And they were an advertiser for a long time. I don't know if they still are, but they were an advertiser for a long time.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah, they were. I, I didn't.

[Leo Laporte]

I like that Ryan kid. He's gonna go places.

[Paul Thurott]

I think he's gonna be okay. Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

None of this available in Canada? No.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh yeah, you have to. It's Rogers or Telus, right?

[Richard Campbell]

That's right. And where. And where the coast place is? No Telesignal. So if you want your phone to work, you have Rogers.

[Leo Laporte]

Right.

[Richard Campbell]

But a Rolo for data.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah, that's so. So a Rolo is the one I use here for data because they're on Telus, but there's a service called Nomad that's cheaper but they're on. Not movies. Movie Star, but some. Whatever it is. No, it's not at and T. I can't remember. Maybe this is Movie Star, but it's. It doesn't solve the problem. But yeah, that's what I've been using since I've been here and that works fine. Like I just, you know, you assign one to phone and text and the other one to data and it's, you.

[Richard Campbell]

Know, that's, that's what I do.

[Leo Laporte]

I must check it out.

[Paul Thurott]

It's worth looking at. And normally I would do an app pick, but I'm going to do a hardware pick because a couple years ago Microsoft got rid of their Microsoft branded hardware, keyboards, mice, webcams, etc. They kept the Surface branded stuff, but I don't really.

[Leo Laporte]

You forgot that you did this last week, didn't you?

[Richard Campbell]

I think you did this last week, buddy. Yeah.

[Paul Thurott]

Oh, so. Well, here's why I'm. Okay, so the reason I'm mentioning it now is because I have this list of things that I'm going to buy.

[Leo Laporte]

When I go home someday when I make my money.

[Paul Thurott]

Do it now, because I don't want to know. But I have a schedule. And so I just ordered the first of maybe, you know, 10 things or something because I know it's going to be so far out. I could just order it now, but this is. I just put it on my calendar next Thursday. Order the Microsoft Sculpt keyboard set from Sculporganoma.

[Richard Campbell]

From Incase. Yeah.

[Paul Thurott]

Yep. So I've heard now from a bunch of people who have been buying this stuff that it's literally, as you would expect, identical. Like, it's the same materials, the same stuff. There's an Incase logo now instead of a Microsoft logo, but it is literally exactly the same.

[Richard Campbell]

That's good news. And order some spares.

[Paul Thurott]

They're going to run out, so I'm going to order mine from Amazon. It's a little cheaper. But I literally just this morning, I made one of several to do items, all on a calendar to order this so that I will fly home and maybe it will arrive within a day or two of me riding home. So when are you going home? I think it's a week from Saturday.

[Richard Campbell]

Oh, and you've been down like three months, haven't you? Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

You've been there a long time?

[Paul Thurott]

3.

[Leo Laporte]

Is there a limit to how long you can stay?

[Paul Thurott]

Nope. As long as I want.

[Richard Campbell]

He's got his residency now.

[Leo Laporte]

Because you're a movie star.

[Paul Thurott]

I sure am.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, that's cool. So you could stay there, but you decide, you know, every once in a while you.

[Paul Thurott]

Well, we have stuff to do. Like my daughter's got some stuff scheduled.

[Leo Laporte]

We have a.

[Paul Thurott]

Well, we. Yeah, we have doctor's appointments and things like.

[Leo Laporte]

Those things.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, all those things stack up.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah. So.

[Richard Campbell]

So you're not doing doctors down there yet? Because by all accounts, no, but I do medicine better down there.

[Paul Thurott]

I hate to say they're cheaper down here, I can tell you that. My wife had a. Was the. With her tooth. I can't remember what it was for some reason, but she. You go to like, you go to a pharmacy, there's a doctor next door that's associated with it and she got medication that she had to go get at the. Well, at the pharmacy. Right. So she saw a doctor, she got a prescription. So what? The pharmacy, the whole thing cost. It was $11.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, my God.

[Paul Thurott]

And it's like I. I spend more than that when I have lunch at McDonald's what are you talking about? Like, that's crazy.

[Leo Laporte]

That's incredible.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah, it's nuts.

[Richard Campbell]

Yep.

[Paul Thurott]

So, yes. I mean, that's on the. I meant to do that. I wanted to get going on, like, prescriptions is kind of a problem. Most of the prescriptions we have are over the counter here. Here. But I also. I take Adderall for adhd, and that's a controlled substance. This is a huge problem, and I can't. You can't just go get that. I could get it on the street, I guess. I don't know. Like, I'm not sure that works. I'm like, you think I'm spazzy now? Wait till.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, you want some crystal meth, Paul?

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah, maybe. I mean, same does street Adderall. Yeah, street Adderall.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, yeah.

[Paul Thurott]

So that's the big one. Yeah. I would like to get that solved. But maybe for the next trip, I.

[Richard Campbell]

Guess then you've got to find. You know, it's one of the things we do in that living on the coast for a year and a half is gradually getting all those services on the coast.

[Leo Laporte]

Right, Right.

[Paul Thurott]

Yep.

[Richard Campbell]

Finally found a pharmacist we both really love, and so that part's done. But finding a doctor, it's not.

[Paul Thurott]

I know. It's a big one. The. The closest friend we have here, who's American, but he's lived in Mexico for, like 15 years. He was like, really early on this. He. He flies to. Is it. I think it's Guadalajara, not Guadalupe. I think it's Guadalajara. His doctor's in Guadalajara. And I'm like, dude, that does not me. I am not roughly Guadalajara.

[Leo Laporte]

Why not get one in Mexico City?

[Paul Thurott]

I don't know.

[Leo Laporte]

I'm just saying.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah, I will. And then he will, too, I think, eventually.

[Richard Campbell]

Get a dentist squared away.

[Leo Laporte]

If my. If my 401k keeps declining, I might be. Might be moving down there. It's cheaper, right? Everything's cheaper.

[Paul Thurott]

Everything is cheaper. You have no idea how much cheaper.

[Leo Laporte]

Like, plus I pay, like 13% state income tax year, so I'd get a 13% boing right away.

[Paul Thurott]

Ours, I mean, we don't have a house anymore in Pennsylvania, but our taxes on that house were. Property taxes were 8, $500 a year. If we owned that same size property here, our taxes would be about $260. Wow. Yeah. It's not even close. And because we don't. The thing we own is tiny. So our taxes here are like nothing. 60$. Whatever the number is. Like, it's some tiny amount out. And you Get a discount if you paid the whole thing at once. Like you get this. You like, you're like all $60 if they save enough change. You're like, you're like, like here you go. So stupid. It's. That's crazy.

[Leo Laporte]

All right, I want to ask Richard what's coming up on Run, his radio published today.

[Richard Campbell]

My friend Tim Warner with his. His handle is Tech Trainer Tim. Tech Trainer Tim, yeah, he's one of the long term pluralsight authors, has done a ton of stuff on Azure and so forth and of course all in on AI. But what I really appreciate, you know, we've been doing a fair number of AI related shows on Run ads especially for sysadmins like different tooling and so forth. I think a month earlier I did one with Jessica Dean. Very GitHub copilot focused. But Tim's gone further afield. He loves the agency mode so he's doing a lot of here look how it actually generates the code, that kind of approach. And he went with curse cursor. So you know, we usually talk about cursor in the context of developers. I'm not saying system in developers, but they're definitely writing more code these days and so using these tools to write higher quality code, more of it and being able to build it testable, working properly with GitHub like the guidance that these tools give you to have good practices around code quality and management can really step up your game in a big way. So a bunch of good links on this show to products you should take a look at. We also talked about what was just being released then was still in preview which was the insider version of Visual Studio had Copilot Edit which has this new agentic mode as well. So worth taking a look at both cursor and this new feature in GitHub copilot pilot through Visual Studio code. So yeah, fun conversation and just more great tooling that you, you know, more and more feeling like you're missing the boat if you don't get on with these tools. It's. They're really quite powerful. They are augmentations to work you were, you weren't getting to, you know, it's like none of us are getting to the bottom of our to do list and this is just trying to get a little further down and get a few more things done. Nice hard stuff.

[Leo Laporte]

Runasradio.com it's not hard, it's easy.

[Richard Campbell]

Just there you go.

[Leo Laporte]

Go there now you know what I'm talking about. Let's talk some Australian, some Whiskey down Under.

[Richard Campbell]

Admittedly I am in Australia but this is actually a whiskey that was given to me at the MVP summit although it happens to be from Tasmania. Oh now you know me these days I don't just talk about the whiskey. I like to do a little tarrar, right. I'm like what about Tasmania? And so forth. And I got into the deeper story, you know, sort of talking about the island going all the way back to like there's evidence of habitation on the land that's now Tasmania going back 30,000 years. The Aboriginal people made it down there way in advance although that's the early stage, that's early Ice age and Tasmania wasn't an island then. It was part of the same land mass that stretched all the way up into New guinea which is one of the ways they made it over through there. And I love the fact that in the stories that they've collected about this there's a flood story that this, you know, they, we talk about what would all kinds of different mythologies and religions have these flood stories. And you know, they talk about maybe it was the breaching of the prosperous strait that filled in the Black Sea that is the origin of flood story. But the, the Bassinian basin very clearly was inhabited. It's now, you know, several hundred meters underwater ocean water and it had probably flooded over a century or so as the ice melted and became the Bass Strait and separated that island from the rest of Australia. But the aboriginals call that land tr. And you know, the interaction between the Aborigines and the, and the Europeans especially with that by the nature of how Australia was inhabited is not good. They're grim stories that I hope that they're dealing with as many of many countries are with their aboriginal peoples. The Europeans first sight the land that becomes named as Tasmania was actually a Dutch explorer named abel Tasman in 1642. But he named the island Anthony de Demostland which was actually the name of the governor of Dutch East Indies at the time. The British immediately then shortened that to Van Diemen's Land. So that island was named Van Demons Land by the, by the Dutch and ultimately by the English for a couple hundred years anyway. The French have maps of it from the 1700s. James Cook sailed by it. William Bligh anchored there at one point and then later was a governor in New South Wales. Wales. But the, the English ultimately inhabited the island because they were afraid the French were going to by deploying a prisoner group into Sullivan's Cove which is where the largest city on Tasmania now is hovertown. And the the island became independent from newfounds Wales in 1825 and was finally renamed Tasmania 1856 officially. Although you can find maps from like, like 1800 that have the word Tasmania on them. So about 2. About 300,000 people live on the island today. Hubbard is the capital in the southeast coast. About 220,000 of them live there. Next largest is Lost in which is in inland in the northeast, and then Devonport. It's only about 30,000 people in Devonport at the central north coast. But we're talking about Bernie. Bernie's the fourth largest town in Tasmania, just west of Devonport, about 28,000 people. So why are we talking about Bernie? Because we're talking about the distillery called Hellier, named for Henry Hellier, who surveyed the road that cuts through Bernie and where this distillery was built in 1827. But the distillery was not built until 1997 and it was built by a group of of dairy farmers. So about 70 families that were farming dairy in the northwest part of Tasmania of Tasmania ran a collective called the Beta Milk Cooperative. And in the 1990s, the cooperative was formed in the 1950s. But in the 1990s they decided they should diversify and they explored a bunch of different industries. And the one they settled on was distilling whiskey, which was at the time unusual in Australia. They were one of the very first distilleries in all of Australia. But because it wasn't a mom and pop operation like your typical distillery starts, as you know, somebody's farming barley and has excess and needs to use it up. This was already a collective of dairy farmers that were used to working at scale. So they built quite a large distillery right off the bat and were successful at it. In fact, in 2019, the Betta milk Cooperative exited the dairy business and focus purely on whiskey. Although apparently they make a very nice whiskey cream as well. So there's no milk products involved in there. And today the vat, the vast majority of that collective is still owned by the same set of families, although several generations later now. So Hellier Distillery mostly gets their barley from the island. They actually buy it from the Cascade Brewery, which is outside of Hobart, who does their own maltings. And they. So they buy it. They buy it it malted but not ground. They do their own grindings. Cascade Brewery has been in Hobart since 1832. So these things have been around for a while. But because they were dairy farmers used to working at scale, a lot of the equipment in the distillery is big. 30,000 liter mash ton, one of the largest wash stills in the world at 60,000 liters also. So the main part of the, of the. The still is stainless steel. They only, only the lye arming condenser are copper, which they need because you need to reduce the sulfurs, the sulfites out of the barley when you're distilling or you end up with a very bitter distillate. It's one of these interesting truths that these guys when tearing along so distilling is easy. Then they tried to make the product and it wasn't that good. So they then hired some good distillers and started working through the process. Took them a few years to get it right. Right. Yes. A 60,000 liter wash still is unbelievably vast. And then a 20,000 liter spirit still they do a. Tasmania is far enough south that it's fairly cool there. So their fermentation is sort of, it's very Scottish. It's like 65 hours of fermentation. But because the still is so big, when they do their initial wash distillation run it's 72 hours. Typically a Scottish distilled distillation on the wash would be eight hours. So this is a very, very, very long distilling process and a lot of conversation about the effects of a long distillation like that on the reflux to make a really clean tasting spirit. They normally age in bourbon casks as they're inexpensive. In fact they even say they're using Jack Daniels casks and they make a bunch of different variations of whiskey which they've been making for more than 20 years now. In fact, they do have long agings. They have a 21 year old and if you can find a bottle of it, almost a thousand bucks. Like not cheap. And they do lots of finishing barrelings. Port, sherry, wine, beer, you name it. They do have a small line of peated whiskey but they buy that barley that are already peated from Scotland. So their non peated editions are Tasmanian barley handled by their brewery. Handled by the brewery on the Isle Island. But the, the peated stuff is Scottish barley.

[Leo Laporte]

You know, we can't get to the link you put in. I think they don't sell that Harmony number three in the. No.

[Richard Campbell]

And between the time that I got this bottle and today that link has died.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

And that's because there is only. This is the third edition of Dark Harmony and there were only 239 bottles of it.

[Leo Laporte]

Ah.

[Richard Campbell]

And I got bottled.

[Leo Laporte]

It's gone. I'm so jealous.

[Richard Campbell]

Gone. Now I don't have it with me. I doubt putting it on back on the airplane seems stupid. Stupid.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

But I did have a nice taste of it. Now, this is the third release of this series of special maturing maturings of whiskey that they've made. What they did here is cool. So they're making their normal. Their normal whiskey. They make a beautiful 10. And then they took that Jack Daniels cast that had already done 10 years of their bourbon in it, and they lent that barrel to Communion Brewing, which is in Bernie as well, and they used it to finish a dark ipa.

[Leo Laporte]

Huh.

[Richard Campbell]

So. And they. The. They called that dark IPA the mutinous bastard, which I suspect is, you know, after Captain Bly and all that sort of thing, which you can't get the beer anymore either. It was a special edition. But then they gave the barrel back to Hellier, and they made this. This dark Harmony.

[Leo Laporte]

Love it.

[Richard Campbell]

So it. It did. It did. The. The whiskey did 10 years in bourbon first, and then they did a finish in this special barrel to make the dark Harmony for a year.

[Leo Laporte]

It looks like if you go to the distillery, you can try dark Harmony number two in a tasting may not.

[Richard Campbell]

Have sold out as great as quickly. So I made notes about trying this back at home, and my first note was, whoa, there's no harmony here. This is a serious punch in the mouth. Wow. It's got a little centipede, which really gives you no sense of what's about to happen when you drink it, because it's almost overwhelming. It's 53%, which is high, but not catastrophic, but it's pretty strong. But it doesn't have that alcohol burn. It has a bitter IPA taste.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, interesting.

[Richard Campbell]

But as soon as you get that first swallow done, your salivary glands kick off. Like, that bitterness really sort of gets. You go, oh, I think I want more. And it doesn't burn on the way down. It goes down really, really nice. And then. And then while you're still slightly traumatized, you're like, I should take another sip of this, because it couldn't be like that again.

[Leo Laporte]

Sounds like it's aptly named. Actually. It kind of is.

[Richard Campbell]

This dark Harmony. Yeah. No, they definitely is a play. This is a barrel that's gone from whiskey to beer, back to whiskey.

[Paul Thurott]

Wow.

[Richard Campbell]

And so it's unique. It's such a cool idea for whiskey. It was Chris Goosen who gave me this bottle at fellow mvp, and I'm really grateful to him because I would Again, there's only 228, 239bottles is ever made. I got bottle 224.

[Leo Laporte]

I love it. There's a competition to impress you. Now, now, right. It's like.

[Paul Thurott]

Right.

[Leo Laporte]

We got, we got. Can't just give him any old bottle you got.

[Richard Campbell]

It's better give me something weird.

[Leo Laporte]

Something weird or something rare or both.

[Richard Campbell]

Used to be something weird from my closet. Now it's something weird from Tasmania.

[Leo Laporte]

I love Tasmania. As I mentioned, I spent a couple of weeks there years ago and I just. It's beautiful. It's on the 40th parallel. It's pretty much the same parallel as we are.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

So their cheeses, for instance, blue cheese made there is very much like our blue cheese in this area. So it's.

[Richard Campbell]

But it said, you know, everything south of there is Antarctica so they get very sturdy winds and very. And cold drafts. So actually pretty good for aging whiskey. Ah. If you could find a bottle of this and. Yeah, I don't think you could. It's about 150 US.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah. You can't even find the webpage.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, I think they pulled it because they don't have any to sell. They do sell international. There are a few high end or, you know, sort of fancy collector whiskey handlers in the US that have helliers. Some helliers. But not this one. This one. I suspect a few bottles of this will show up in collectors at some point. At a much higher price point. It's very unique. It was a very special.

[Leo Laporte]

It's interesting because they also sell whiskey cream.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah. So you know their dairy origins show through. Right. Like then.

[Leo Laporte]

Okay. Yeah. I'm not sure I'd want whiskey cream, to be honest.

[Richard Campbell]

It's a thing. I mean that's essentially what a Bailey's is. It's chocolate milk and whiskey. Right.

[Paul Thurott]

It's a big. It's big now. I think a lot of people, it's like, it's like a gateway drug into real.

[Leo Laporte]

It's a smoother. Probably smoother.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah. Anyway, some award winners.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah. It was a great experience and it goes to the end of the roster. So. So I'm headed to Melbourne in a few hours and I'm going to go shopping for a whiskey in Melbourne, which is basically in view of Tasmania where we're going to be and we'll have something different for next week.

[Leo Laporte]

I hope you can sleep on the plane. You got up really early to be with us and we're so grateful. Richard. Thank you.

[Richard Campbell]

I got a good sleep. I went to bed early so I'm fine. But that being said, I Always fall asleep on airplanes. I suspect I will not remember any of that flight. I usually sleep as I sleep before.

[Leo Laporte]

The wheels come up. Yeah.

[Paul Thurott]

Anything to sleep on a plane.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

I don't know what it is about that, but this, I find it soothing.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah. No, as soon as we pull off the gate, I'm out.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, me too.

[Richard Campbell]

And then the bump of landing will probably.

[Paul Thurott]

People make me sick. I'd wake, I'd be like, are you a fly? Are you sleeping? Sleeping, buddy, Are you there?

[Richard Campbell]

I. But I do have a. I still have a couple of bottles of maple syrup left. So that's.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, yum, yum.

[Richard Campbell]

Get. Valuable commodity in this part of the world, let me tell you. Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

Well, Richard, safe travels. Enjoy your trip to Melbourne. You'll be in Melbourne for next week.

[Richard Campbell]

For next week. Just in time to. Just before I fly to New Zealand.

[Leo Laporte]

So Richard Campbell [e-mail] no matter where he is in the world, he'll always be there. And that's where his podcasts live. And we're so glad that he joins us every Wednesday for Windows Weekly. Same to you, Paul Thurat. He is the man in charge of thurrot.com T H U R R O. He also publishes his [e-mail] including the Field Guide to Windows 11 and Windows Everywhere. Kind of a history of Windows through its development frameworks. Together they team up to create this show. Every Wednesday, 11am Pacific, 2pm Eastern. No, 1800 UTC. You can watch live if you're in the club, of course on Discord. But there's also also a live stream for all at YouTube. Twitch, TikTok. Did we do TikTok at all today? I think we didn't. We're struggling with TikTok a little bit. We'll get it. We'll get it going. LinkedIn because we're old Facebook. I know. I don't understand. What's this dance?

[Richard Campbell]

I just can't do that.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah, exactly.

[Leo Laporte]

My 22 year old told me yesterday the ice bucket challenge is back.

[Paul Thurott]

Yes.

[Richard Campbell]

No, no.

[Paul Thurott]

Bell bottom pants and roller skating.

[Leo Laporte]

I guess everything old is new again.

[Paul Thurott]

Yep.

[Leo Laporte]

Anyway. X.com LinkedIn Facebook Kick. You know a lot of places to watch live and if you're chatting, I see all the chats on my screen. I have here a kind of compiled composite version of the chat. So it's nice to hear from you all. But you don't have to watch live only if you want to chat because we make obviously we make on demand versions of the show available twit tv ww. That's the official webpage. You can find audio and video there. You'll also find links to all the previous episodes and you'll find a link to our YouTube channel for the video. Great place to go to share clips. YouTube makes that pretty easy. And everybody's got YouTube, right? But the best thing to do, if you really want to listen to every show, and you should, if you are a true winner or dozer, you can subscribe in your favorite podcast client. You'll get it automatically the minute it's available. And incidentally, if you do that, please leave us a review, a positive review of course. 5 star review that helps us spread the word about Windows Weekly. Thank you, Paul. Thank you, Richard.

[Richard Campbell]

Sir, you want another view? The sun's up nicely now.

[Paul Thurott]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

Let's see the final picture. Oh my, my gosh.

[Paul Thurott]

It looks like a sunset photo.

[Leo Laporte]

Morning in Sydney. So that's cuz, Paul, you're rarely up before 9am no, I'm actually, I'm usually.

[Paul Thurott]

Up before the sun.

[Leo Laporte]

But yeah, that's one of the things I liked about cruises is, you know, you always have that perfect sunset over the ocean. Oh yeah, there's never anything in the way.

[Richard Campbell]

No sunsets here. It's sunrises.

[Leo Laporte]

It's nice. Yeah, sunrise.

[Richard Campbell]

We're looking east, so.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah. Thank you boys. We'll see you next week. Thank you everybody. See you next time on Windows Weekly.

[Micah Sargent]

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[Leo Laporte]

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