Julia Gets Wise with Annie Leibovitz

Summary

Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus

Episode: Julia Gets Wise with Annie Leibovitz
Air Date: December 3, 2025
Host: Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Guest: Annie Leibovitz

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Episode Overview

In the Season 4 opener, Julia Louis-Dreyfus dives deep into the art, psyche, and accumulated wisdom of legendary photographer Annie Leibovitz, whose iconic work has shaped how we see celebrities, culture, and womanhood for more than five decades. Through candid and insightful conversation, Julia and Annie explore memory, aging, family, vulnerability, grief, creativity, and the unique challenge—and power—of photographing women. The episode is a blend of nostalgia, art appreciation, and hard-won life lessons, all delivered with Julia’s humor and warmth.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Emotional Power of Photographs (00:23–08:44)

• Julia opens with an emotional recounting of losing her family photos in a house fire, including rare, irreplaceable generational images.
• Reflects on why photographs matter so profoundly, quoting Diane Arbus:
  “A photograph is a secret about a secret. The more it tells you, the less you know.” (02:24)
• Julia’s joy at salvaging a single black-and-white passport photo with her mother highlights how the meaning of photos can deepen over time.

2. Annie Leibovitz: Defining Eras Through Photography (08:44–09:55)

• Julia praises Annie’s groundbreaking style that redefined celebrity portraiture, blending narrative, intimacy, humor, and cultural commentary.
• “If you’re under 50 and you’ve ever seen a photo of a celebrity that stopped you in your tracks, chances are it’s an Annie Leibovitz.” (06:32)

3. On Aging and Knowing Yourself (09:36–10:25)

• Annie (age 76) shares her positive outlook on aging:
  • "I just love getting older. You kind of know what you're doing." (09:53)
  • She finds value in “doing things a little bit more methodically... not methodically, but slower.”
• Julia asks, “How old do you feel?” Annie jokes she feels “7 or 12” per her daughter, but mostly “35 or 40.” (09:38)

4. Comedians, Authenticity, and Portraiture (10:40–12:48)

• Annie’s deep respect for comedians:
  • “They're so smart, they're so intelligent, they're so manic depressive... No one really understands how brilliant our comedians are.” (11:22)
  • Discusses challenges in capturing humor and depth in photographs.
• The importance of trust and role-playing for actors in portraits.

5. Photographing Women & The Complexity of Aging (13:02–16:58)

• Julia asks about Annie’s approach to photographing older women, referencing Annie’s portrait of her mother:
  • Annie recalls her mother’s vulnerability, her fear of looking old, and how family tradition shaped her distrust of smiles in photos.
  • “I began to distrust the smile. I didn't believe in the smile.” (13:31)
  • The photograph taught Annie about vulnerability and authenticity:
    • “She really is looking as if there's no camera there. And that is... what you want as a photographer.” (15:24)

6. Being Photographed vs. Taking Photos (17:01–19:41)

• Annie admits, “I can't stand it” when asked if she’s comfortable being photographed (17:01).
• She ponders self-portraits and the oddness of self-image: mirrors vs. photos (17:55).

7. Iconic Celebrity Photography & Changing Perceptions of Beauty (20:43–22:07)

• Julia shares how the famous naked, pregnant Demi Moore portrait changed her view on pregnancy and beauty.
• Annie notes that the image wasn’t initially considered publishable; it was controversial in some regions:
  • “It did get taken off the newsstands in the South.” (21:47)
• Annie relates this to Gloria Steinem’s message in “Women 2”:
  • “How we are seen changes how we see ourselves.” (22:07)

8. Gender, Visibility, and Using Invisibility as Power (23:10–24:15)

• Annie reads from Gloria Steinem’s essay on:
  • The dismissal of women in professional settings.
  • “I would be in rooms and no one took me seriously... I actually used that and loved it.” (24:06)
• Discusses the paradoxical freedom of being overlooked as a woman and as a photographer.

9. The Studio vs. Real Life (29:52–32:19)

• Annie prefers on-location shoots to studio work:
  • “It doesn't give me enough... real life going on… I love to start at someone's home.” (29:55)
• Julia comments on Annie’s penchant for photographing people in beds; Annie acknowledges, with humor, that she had to scale it back at partner Susan Sontag’s request.

10. Childhood, Family & Reinvention (32:38–34:08)

• Annie, one of six children, details a nomadic childhood and the strong role of family, which influenced her later desire to have children.
  • “It’s always been about family, always been about family, which is why I wanted to have children in the long run.” (34:00)

11. Rolling Stone Years and Avoiding Rock-Star Stereotypes (34:22–36:55)

• Surprisingly, Annie wasn’t a “music lover”—she was drawn to the photography, not the scene:
  • “I wasn’t a rock-and-roll photographer. I was a photographer.” (35:17)
• Speaks candidly about struggles with addiction during the chaotic touring years and her recovery through rehab in her 30s (36:36).

12. Early John Lennon Portraits: Boldness & Beginner’s Luck (37:34–40:12)

• Annie shares the story of photographing John Lennon as a young, largely unknown photographer:
  • “Jan [Wenner] liked that I offered to fly youth fare and he could ‘own the negatives.’ That’s probably why I got to go.” (37:34)
• The resulting images—marked by a lack of affect and authenticity—shaped her approach to future portraiture.

13. Turning Mistakes into Art (40:41–42:11)

• Annie tells the story of photographing Nancy Pelosi:
  • Missed the “classic” shot, but recognized the power in an image where Pelosi is striding away, impossible to keep up with.
  • “That’s Nancy Pelosi. You can’t keep up with her.” (41:17)
• Annie considers herself a “very good editor” who embraces unexpected moments.

14. Grief, Family, and Working Through Loss (49:28–54:32)

• Annie discusses the overlapping losses of her partner Susan Sontag and her father, while becoming a mother in her 50s:
  • “When Susan died... I wasn’t even sure I had any photographs of her.” (49:32)
• Her project “Photographer’s Life” acted as a therapeutic record:
  • “I was really lucky to have my work” (51:56)
• On photographing family:
  • “I never really thought anyone was looking at it...I did it for myself.” (52:42)

15. Motherhood and Aging (54:32–59:03)

• Annie had her first child at 50 and twins by surrogate four years later, reflecting on the balance of age, work, and parenting.
  • “I believed in setting by example—by just working and letting them see me work.” (55:13)
• Discusses her strategies and worries about being an older parent, wanting to ensure her children support each other, as she did with her siblings.

16. On Regrets, Looking Back, and What’s Next (59:42–61:44)

• No desire to be 21 again:
  • “I can stand outside of myself and look at that work and see this kind of energy and verve and insanity... but I wouldn’t want to be that person again.” (59:48)
• Her biggest “problem” was being interested in “everything.”
• What she hopes most for her children:
  • “That they find something they love to do.” (60:50)
• On aging:
  • “I’m really enjoying it... I mean, I’m enjoying kind of knowing what I’m doing... I’m enjoying it. Fuck it. What choice do we have? And let’s go. And there’s a lot to do still.” (61:13, 61:33)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Power of Photographs:
  “A photograph is a secret about a secret. The more it tells you, the less you know.” – Julia quoting Diane Arbus (02:24)
• On Comedians:
  “They're so smart, they're so intelligent, they're so manic depressive… No one really understands how brilliant our comedians are.” – Annie (11:22)
• On Vulnerability in Portraiture:
  “I began to distrust the smile. I didn't believe in the smile.” – Annie (13:31)
  “She really is looking as if there’s no camera there. And that is… what you want as a photographer.” – Annie on her mother’s portrait (15:24)
• On Being Photographed:
  “I can’t stand it.” – Annie (17:01)
• On Cultural Change and Female Visibility:
  “How we are seen changes how we see ourselves.” – Annie quoting Gloria Steinem (22:07) “I would be in rooms and no one took me seriously... I actually used that and loved it.” (24:06)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

| Timestamp | Segment/Discussion | |-----------------|---------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:23–08:44 | Julia describes losing her family photos in the fire | | 08:44–09:55 | Julia introduces Annie Leibovitz and her impact | | 09:36–10:25 | Annie on aging and what she loves about it | | 10:40–12:48 | On comedians and the difficulty/humor of photographing comedy | | 13:02–16:58 | Portraits of older women, vulnerability, and distrust of smiles | | 17:01–19:41 | Annie on discomfort with being photographed | | 20:43–22:07 | Demi Moore’s photo & women’s self-image | | 23:10–24:15 | Steinem’s essay: invisibility as power for women | | 29:52–32:19 | Studio vs. on-location, “bed” portraits | | 34:22–36:55 | Rolling Stone, music photography, addiction & recovery | | 37:34–40:12 | Early John Lennon portrait, luck, and learning | | 40:41–42:11 | Mistakes turned to art – Nancy Pelosi story | | 49:28–54:32 | Grief, loss, and the healing power of work | | 54:32–59:03 | Motherhood, aging, sibling bonds | | 59:42–61:44 | Reflections on regret, passion, and the future |

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Episode Tone

• Reflective, humorous, and deeply personal.
• Intimate honesty around vulnerability, creativity, and aging.
• Empowering insights—especially on female agency and reinvention.
• Playful exchanges and mutual admiration between Julia and Annie.

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For Listeners

Whether you’re an artist, a parent, or just appreciating the wisdom that comes with time, this episode delivers a masterclass in seeing—yourself, others, and the world—with fresh eyes. Annie Leibovitz’s candor about her life, work, and joys of aging offers encouragement to embrace vulnerability, savor family, and keep moving forward.

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Memorable closing exchange:
“I mean, I’m enjoying it. Fuck it. What choice do we have? And let’s go. And there’s a lot to do still.” – Julia (61:33)
“One step at a time here, you know, one step at a time.” – Annie (61:44)

Transcript

[A]

Hearing a voice can change everything. So AT&T wants everyone to gift their voice to loved ones this holiday season because that conversation is a chance to say something they'll hear forever. AT&T connecting changes everything.

[B]

Lemonade.

[A]

As I've mentioned on this here podcast, we lost our home of 31 years and everything in it in the Pacific Palisades fire earlier this year. And if you listened to the last episode of Wiser Than Me in that episode, I warned that I might be talking to you, dearest listener, about that fire and the loss that came with it a lot this season. And well, I'm a woman of my word. So here you go. We had a rough plan of evacuation from that house. The most important thing to get out was our photos and unfortunately we didn't get a chance to put that plan into effect and all the photos were lost. And I have to say we had more than just a few photos. In fact we had, Lord help us, more than 90 big photo albums that were perfectly sorted and identified and organized by me. Every picture every ever taken of our kids and also crazy important stuff like our parents baby pictures and the only pictures that existed of my parents wedding and a photo of my father in law playing high school football in a leather helmet in 1927. And many, many, just thousands more, like tens of thousands more. We were the repository of the family record and it is definitely obsessive. But God it was so joyful. It was so perfect. These photos gave me an enormous amount of joy and there was one in particular that was just so good. It was this gorgeous photo that could have been a Norman Rockwell painting of our son Charlie at about 5 in his first baseball uniform sitting on his dad's knee hugging a huge baseball glove like a doll.

[B]

Bab.

[A]

And his dad, my Brad, who was Charlie's first baseball coach, was in the exact same Texas Rangers uniform hugging tiny Charlie. You just can't imagine the shit eating grins on their faces. It was just heaven. Another was a photo that Brad took of our son Henry sitting on my father's lap on the Ile Saint Louis in Paris, father's beloved hometown with an ice cream cone in his chocolate covered 4 year old hand and more chocolate dripping down his smiling chin. And my dad is looking at Henry and Henry's looking right into the lens, so pleased with himself. Beautiful. Really beautiful. Why? Why, why are these losses so poignant? What is it about a photograph? It feels like the memory's taken away. To tell you the truth. Diane Arbus said a photograph is a secret about a Secret. The more it tells you, the less you know. I think that's very profound. I'm not sure how it applies to what I've just told you, but I'll tell you one thing. I would give almost anything to have those images back, really, Honestly. But here's a happy ending to this sad tale. First of all, we have so much family and so many friends who know of this loss. And they've been sending us a ton of fantastic family photos, which is very touching and incredibly generous. And second, one of my very favorite photos that I thought was lost was out of the house when it burned up. So I still have it. And it's just a black and white passport photo of me and my mom back in the day. I guess kids got passport photos with their parents. And I have to tell you, this is a. A marvelous photo. My mom is young. She's 27, actually. She's very beautiful. She's holding me. I'm roughly four or five months old. My arm is around her neck, and my mother has this kind of pleased smile. And I am looking right into the camera, kind of like Henry is looking into that camera in that photo from Paris that I was describing. It's just a passport picture. It was probably taken at a drugstore or something, but I swear to God, it could. Could be a Henri Cartier Bresson portrait. I've had that photo for decades. I've always loved it. But now, oh, man. Stone cold treasure. How we look at a photo can, and often does change for sure, but the photo cannot. It is that 1 250th of a second or 1 60th of a second or whatever that shutter speed is, that sliver of a second, an instant so potently preserved in the frame. And a great photo, whether it's a family photo or still life or a photo of a movie star, whatever it is, it may be just that fraction of a second captured, but somehow it can capture us, the viewer, over and over and over again. So how thrilled I am then, that our guest today is Annie Leibovitz. I'm Julia Louis Dreyfus, and this is Wiser Than Me, the podcast where I get schooled by women who are wiser than me. I love pictures, photographs. I can't get enough of the great fashion, news and culture photographers of the last century. Richard Avedon, Robert Frank, Vivienne Mayer. They all so vividly evoke what is now a distant era, an era that I can't quite touch, but I love to look at. That's what Great photography was. Then along came Annie Leibovitz, and there was a seismic shift. Suddenly, rock stars were draped across motel beds. A new John Lennon cradled Yoko Ono, Whoopi Goldberg submerged in a bath of milk. And it wasn't just celebrities either. She shot officials rolling up Nixon's red carpet as he flew away in shame after resigning the presidency of the United States. She wasn't just photographing her subjects, okay? She was helping to define entire decades of and careers. And she's still doing it. Her images are intimate and elaborate, packed with intriguing narrative, often funny, ironic, touching, and always daring. Annie Leibovitz blurs the lines between photojournalism and fine art portraiture. If you're under 50 and you've ever seen a photo of a celebrity that stopped you in your tracks, chances are you it's an Annie Leibovitz. Now she's released Women 2, a follow up to her groundbreaking 1999 book, Women, which featured a foreword by her late partner of 16 years, Susan Sontag. That began, a photograph is not an opinion. Or is it? 26 years later in women 2, Annie is still answering that question. She was the first woman ever to have a solo exhibition at the National Portrait gallery in Washington, D.C. and in 2016, she was inducted into the International Photography hall of Fame. Safe to say, Annie is the most sought after photographer in the world. Please welcome photographer, storyteller, and witness to half a century of art, music, and history, a mother and a woman who is so much wiser than me, Annie Leibovitz. Hi, Annie Leibovitz.

[B]

No, I doubt that.

[A]

No, I don't doubt that. I've had the great joy of looking and really doing a deep dive into your work. As if I didn't know it already, but really doing a deep dive. And holy crap, what an oeuvre.

[B]

Do you know what? It's strange to me I haven't photographed you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

With all our crossing lines, I wanted to tell you right off that we need to do something. We should really think about it before we all go away.

[A]

Oh, my God, I would love that. I would love that.

[B]

You're such a. A really good actor. Besides, you know everything you've done, so.

[A]

Oh, thanks. Wow. So, first of all, before we begin, are you comfortable if I ask your real age? Annie?

[B]

Yeah, sure.

[A]

How old are you?

[B]

I'm 76 years old.

[A]

Okay. How old do you feel?

[B]

I feel if you ask my daughter, sometimes I'm 7 and sometimes I'm 12. Most of the time I think I feel more like 30. 5 or 40.

[A]

What do you think the best part is about being your age, would you say?

[B]

I just love getting older. You kind of know what you're doing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It doesn't mean it's what you're doing is good or better or whatever. It's still hard work, but you kind of know what you're doing. And there's something really nice about that. And then things, I think naturally are slowing down. And I kind of, after running around like crazy starting when I was very young, and so it's nice to kind of slow down a little bit. It's kind of great.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And do things a little bit more methodically. Not methodically, but slower. I mean, it's great.

[A]

What do you mean? Do you mean physically slower or do you mean physically?

[B]

And it could be mentally, too.

[A]

You seem sharp.

[B]

No, I'm like, I'm okay. I'm okay. I do. I do love to move. I do love to move, is for sure.

[A]

You know, back in the day, I don't know if you remember this or not. I'm sure you do not, but you took a photograph of Michael Richards and it was a photo of him in profile with shaving cream in his hair. And it was sort of this kind of organized looking chaos, which is so incredible. I was really moved by it. And I wrote to you and I asked you, would you be so kind as to give me a copy? And you very generously sent me a signed copy of it, which I have to this day. And that photo, for me, anyway, really tapped into him. And when you're working, I was wondering, with people in comedy, do you try to stay sort of in their brand?

[B]

I have such, God, profound respect and admiration for comedians. I mean, all along through my work, they're the life flow that goes through. They're so smart, they're so intelligent, they're so manic depressive, you know, really under the radar. It seems like no one really understands how brilliant our comedians are. And I don't know about you, I'm sure, but the last couple years, I mean, they've sort of helped me survive with what comes across on Saturday Night Live. I would run to the set to watch the show just to get through everything. So, I mean, listen, I started off with, oh, my God, Richard Pryor, Lily Tomlin. You know, I mean, I was like, hung out with Richard Pryor or got, you know, lost several days with Richard Pryor.

[A]

You know, oh, Lord, oh, Lord.

[B]

I know how hard it is to be funny in a photograph.

[A]

It is hard. Yeah.

[B]

And you Know, you have to go back to Charlie Chaplin just hanging from the clock or being very physical. So I admire that imagery as well, to try to sort of think of how to be funny without being stupid.

[A]

Without being stupid, yeah. It's kind of a fine line.

[B]

I just think about Meryl Streep and the white face.

[A]

Yes, of course.

[B]

Like, playing a role is really comfortable for almost any actor or comedian, quite honestly.

[A]

Yeah, totally. Of course. I mean. Well, I'd love to ask you about the portrait that you took of your mother. It's black and white, and she's looking right at you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Just really without affect. And the lighting is incredible. It's just really an extraordinary picture. And I remember reading that your mom said that she didn't want to look old in this photo. So I'm wondering, do you approach photographing older women differently than photographing younger women? Do you consider age at all when you're. Is this a stupid question? I don't know.

[B]

No, it's not a stupid question. But especially as I get older, I really. I mean, it sounds so corny, but I do find the beauty in every one. Every one of us. And, you know, I mean, when I think about Louise Bourgeois picture or Shane Goodall or, you know, my mother was a whole other set of complicated issues because growing up with my mom, who's hard act to follow, a very creative dancer, but never got a chance to really fulfill all of that. She grew up where she smiled for every picture and then every picture. When she took family pictures, she wanted us all to smile, so I began to distrust the smile. I didn't believe in the smile. And she actually. The photograph you're talking about, she sat for it and she was very nervous. And it actually. I mean, I actually was crying behind the camera because it's not that I didn't want her to be. I didn't want her to be nervous, but she was nervous about looking older. And she was in her middle 70s, probably my age, and, you know, she didn't want to look old.

[A]

What made you cry?

[B]

Well, because she was so vulnerable. Yeah, I took that photograph and, you know, I've told the story many times, but she didn't like it. My father didn't like it because he said she wasn't smiling. But she grew to like it, you know, which is nice. I mean, we had a big show with the Corcoran, and we blew that picture up really big. And she was standing next to it signing, you know, like, autographs.

[A]

She found her way back to her.

[B]

She found her way, she started to like it, but it actually is such. I still learn from that photograph now because it took me a while. I mean, someone said to me, you know, your mother is really looking at you like she loves you.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

And I was like, no, no. But what is remarkable about the photograph, and this is where the bar is raised, is that she really is looking as if there's no camera there. I mean, she's just looking at me. I mean, there's no camera there. And that is, I think, as a photographer, especially if you're going to be interested in portraiture, you don't want to notice the camera. You don't want to think that there's something there. You want that to go away. Some photographs, with time, they certainly do change and they have other aspects to them.

[A]

Right. And I would imagine that that photograph has new meaning now.

[B]

Well, stay. I think what I find remarkable is it stays constant. I mean, it's. I mean, it's. I mean, I didn't get it at first. A lot of times I don't get it at first.

[A]

You didn't get what?

[B]

I mean, I didn't get. I didn't get how good it was, I guess, on some level of my mother. I mean, I was really happy that it showed her intelligence and she was a really intelligent woman and she never broadcast that, you know, that wasn't something. She was always creative life at the party, blah, blah. You know, And I think that has a lot to do with the time and the period for women. It's hard. I think it's hard to have your picture taken.

[A]

Yeah, it is hard.

[B]

I have tremendous empathy. However, a lot of it is in the subject's lap. I mean, it has a lot to do with what they can bring to this session.

[A]

Are you comfortable having your photo taken?

[B]

I can't stand it. Yeah. No.

[A]

You can't stand it?

[B]

No, not that I can't. You know what it is?

[A]

I.

[B]

It's. It's what I do. I've sort of given up on that because. No, seriously. Because there's so many different ways you can take a picture, number one. And number two, if it's someone that you think is a good photographer and they're few and far between, on some level might trust what. What might happen, regardless of how it sort of looks.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I'm sort of like, you know, I gave up and I kind of like, said, okay, just, you know, take my biggest ride out here. You know, it's like, it's not like. Because they can't Very few people can really put the time in it to do it in a way that they know what they're doing.

[A]

But what about if you take a picture of yourself, Annie? Like, does that. I'm curious about that. Cause I wonder if the image that you. That you get, it matches the image that you have of yourself.

[B]

Sometimes I think I make myself a little better looking than. No, a little better. I mean, or kind of a better version of, you know, of how. It's so weird. But have you. When you look at yourself in the mirror, it's the. It's the opposite of what you're actually get. What other people are looking at, you know, is this backwards? It is so weird. And then, you know, like, you know, it was so, so funny because, you know, I, I, first of all, I love photography and I admire photography and I like, I've studied not, not, you know, not on purpose so much, but I've just looked at every single photo book that's ever kind of existed in every photographer and really learned and grew up with amazing photographers like looking at Avedon and Irving Penn and Helmut Newton and Gibardin and, you know, so it's funny when you. And even Diane Arbus, when you think about Diane Arbus and then you sort of notice. It's so interesting with the camera phone now because people are beginning to sort of see other parts of themselves. But like, when you see someone who knows they don't. They never see the back of their head, you know. Have you met people where you realize that? Because. Yeah, I'm probably one of those people that hasn't seen the back of my head.

[A]

Well, the back of your head may look like my. It's funny you're like that because the back look like.

[B]

Compared to, you know, the front. And some people don't take care of the back of their head. Is it their.

[A]

No, it looks like they got out of bed. I know it's 3/4 all the time. Totally. You know, I have to say that if I'm having my picture taken, which I have a real, frankly, love, hate relationship with. Cause as to your point about trust.

[B]

Well, it has a lot to do about whether you like yourself or like the way you look. You know, I think it does.

[A]

But also you gotta really trust the person you're with. Cause it's a really. In my view, it's a very intimate process if it's going well. And so you're giving over to somebody who has the control, which always kind of scares me a little bit.

[B]

But I love seeing you like this, by the way?

[A]

Like what?

[B]

Right now, I don't know what it is. It's just. No.

[A]

Well, get your camera.

[B]

No, it wouldn't work coming through this.

[A]

I'm totally kidding.

[B]

But. No, no, no. I'm just, you know, it definitely was. It feeds into. You know. You know how I think you're always probably a little more refined when you go into your. To your photograph? I don't know what I'm saying. Don't ever. Really.

[A]

Yeah. I've got hair and makeup. You know, for starters, there's that.

[B]

That's true. That's true.

[A]

Yeah. And obviously, I mean, I don't have any hair and makeup today for our conversation, except I do have a little lipstick. But anyway, you have really great skin. Oh, thanks.

[B]

But.

[A]

I will say that the amazing photo that you took of Demi Moore, of course, the iconic one when she was pregnant with her second kid, and that was like, you know, everybody was, to coin a phrase, gobsmacked by it. And I wanted to tell you something about that photo that was really important to me. So I'd had my first child the year before, and I was not somebody who was comfortable in my own body. When I was pregnant, I would just. I felt enormous. I was enormous, frankly. And I never felt beautiful. And then I saw that cover, and I thought, oh, wow, that is a beautiful body. A pregnant woman's body.

[B]

You know, I do want to point out with Demi Moore that. Because again, we didn't really know 100% what we were doing, didn't think it was publishable exactly at the time. And it did get taken off the newsstands in the South.

[A]

Oh, it did. I didn't know this.

[B]

Oh. Oh, yeah. Oh, no. These magazines take chances when they do things like that. Wow.

[A]

You framed it differently for me. And I just wanted to thank you for that. Cause it really was a. That opened up my mind in a way that it hadn't been. So. Thanks.

[B]

I'm just looking. I mean, I have this. I'm just learning how to talk about the women's book. But in Gloria's essay, she and I pulled this out because I think it is so important. How we are seen changes how we see ourselves. Now, what that means is it's important to. When you saw Demi Moore, you saw how you could see yourself. I think, like, we need these photographs and these stories of women to inspire us.

[A]

No question.

[B]

Only because we're in a kind of terrible moment in this country.

[A]

Yes, we are.

[B]

And for women, particularly since Roe vs Wade was over, Overturned. But. And then being awkward, being an awkward young person, you know, having the camera and giving. Giving me a license to be somewhere. And it's interesting to understand. I mean, and this again, is in Gloria's essay, but can I read this thing from.

[A]

Yes. You're talking about Gloria Steinem's essay that opens your new book, Women Too.

[B]

Yeah. Okay. I didn't grow up in a world in which women are viewed as powerful as men. Gloria says. I know many people now feel our country is going backwards, but when you have lived a long life, which I am lucky to have done, you have a context of compared to what being condescended to is progress. Previously, we were just ignored. I remember times, she says, when thoughtful male journalists would look at a room full of women and say, there's no one here. So one of the reasons I pulled this out is this really is what was happening when I was young, is I would be in rooms and no one took me seriously. No one thought you could do anything. And I actually used that and loved it. And it was kind of, like, frustrating for me when I got better known and, you know, my subject would come up and start talking to me, saying, no, no, no, stay over there. You know, so I could take a photograph.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It was something as a photographer you could use that no one paid any attention to you. But as a woman, period, it was very strange, for sure.

[A]

We'll be right back with more of my conversation with Annie Leibovitz after this quick break. You know, AT&T believes hearing a voice can change everything. It's why people love a good podcast or save voicemails from loved ones, because there's nothing like the comforting sound of a familiar voice. Who do you call when you need to recharge? Maybe it's your mom, your sister, your best friend from college. AT&T wants everyone to share their voice over the holidays. So send a voice note, leave a voicemail, call someone, because that conversation is a chance to say something they'll hear forever. Happy holidays from AT&T. Connecting changes everything. Hey, prime members, did you know you can listen to Wiser Than Me ad free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today to start listening ad free. This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. Every family has traditions. Some drink hot chocolate, some sing carols, and some share very strong opinions over the mashed potatoes. Oftentimes, it's all of the above. But this year is the perfect time to reflect. Reflect on your personal traditions or create new ones, like baking your grandmother's cookies or taking a walk in the crisp air, or even adding time for reflection through therapy. Better Help connects you with fully licensed US Therapists who can help you take some time for yourself. The holidays can be joyful, full of connection and celebration, but they can also be stressful or lonely. Between travel, family expectations and the pressure to do it all, it's easy to lose sight of your own needs. BetterHelp's matching process takes your needs and preferences into account so most clients find the right therapist the first time. And if it's not a fit, switching is easy. Taking care of yourself is essential. Even small moments of self care, reflection or setting boundaries can transform how you experience the season. With 30,000 plus therapists, over 5 million people served, and a 4.9 out of 5 average rating from 1.7 million reviews, BetterHelp is one of the world's largest and most trusted online therapy platforms. This December, start a new tradition by taking care of you. Our listeners get 10% [e-mail] wiser that's better. H E L P.com wiser okay, I'm not going to talk about food waste this time. Promise. I'm going to talk about food resources. All that uneaten food that's lazing around the landfill, tooting out greenhouse gases. It could be put to work enriching our soil or feeding our chickens. It's a valuable resource because it's still food. And the easiest and frankly way coolest way to put all its nutrients to work is with the mill food recycler. Okay, it looks like an art house garbage can. You can just toss your scraps in it like a garbage can. It's definitely not a garbage can. True, I'm a little bit obsessed. I actually even invested in this thing. But I'm not alone. Any mill owner just might corner you at a party and rhapsodize about how it's completely odorless and fully automated and how you can keep filling it for weeks. No joke. But the clincher is that you can depend on it for years. Mill is a serious machine. Think about a dishwasher, not a toaster. It's built by hand in North America and engineered by by the guy who did your iPhone. But you kind of have to live with mill to understand all the love. That's why they offer a risk free trial. Go to mill.com wiser for an exclusive offer that's a wrap on Thanksgiving, whether it was a blast or a bore or a disaster. Now onto the next. But what if before you started Prepping for Christmas and New Year's, you took a minute for yourself with some quality relaxation. This is the time to catch your breath and slow down a little. It could be with a hot bath or a little extra something for your skincare routine. Or maybe with some perfume or jewelry. Macy's has everything you need for some me time or just some good old fashioned sparkle. The right necklace can elevate any ensemble this holiday season. Whether it's the perfect accent piece for your holiday hosting attire or a signature accessory to upgrade the after school pickup look. And best of all, this time of year means sales and savings. Macy's Friends and Family event is on now through December 11th with with 30 to 50% off fine jewelry from brands like Effie and levien. And with 15% off beauty, you can treat yourself to a new fragrance too. Add some calm, some shine and some luxe to the season. Treat yourself with Macy's Friends and Family event now through December 11th. Shop online at Macy's.com or download the Macy's app today. You've mentioned that you don't really love working in a studio. You, you like to work elsewhere. Can you talk about why that is? What is it about working in a studio if you still.

[B]

I don't think I'm a very good studio photographer.

[A]

Oh, give me a fucking break. No, no, no, you're so great.

[B]

Listen, I had to learn how to do it, but I don't. It doesn't give me enough or even my subject enough, you know, real life going on. I don't know what it is. It's just, it's so down to the person and me and that's like just too scary to me. Oh, you know, I just like, like a breeze or something going on. Anything else or you know, rain happening or you know, and I love landscape, but.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I also really, when we're setting up portraits, love to start at someone's, you know, home, you know, if we can. Cause there's a chair you sit in, you're kind of comfortable. You can go off and change your shirt or you know, do something and there's something about it. I mean it's not something about it. It is, it's just the more ideal, you know, but obviously it's. Some people are more private.

[A]

But I know that I notice a lot of the. In all of your work, a lot of your photographs, or many, I should say, people are in bed, which I love.

[B]

Oh no, no. This is so funny. Okay, go ahead.

[A]

Well, I love it because there's something Obviously, very intimate. I think people get relaxed when they're in bed. But I mean, like. I don't mean in bed, like, necessarily posing in bed. I just mean in bed. And.

[B]

Well, there's a great.

[A]

I love bed.

[B]

There's a great. There's a great tradition to all that. No, Peter Uszhar, there's a big resurgence of his work. But all of his portraits were people lying down in his bed. You know, they would come and lay down, and actually, my favorite picture of Susan Sontag is her kind of reclined in his bed, kind of laying down. His. They're still clothed and everything. They're just laying down. But there was a period I was doing so many people in their beds that I came home from a shoot one day and Susan said, would you stop photographing people in their beds? Just stop it. It's like. It's too much. And so, you know, I started to look and I saw Brad Pitt in this, like, orange bed.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I was just starting to look at. I guess. I guess she's right, you know, I have too many people in beds, you know, So I went. I had to sort of stop. It was terrible.

[A]

Yeah. But I'm gonna say I think there's value to it. I really do. I think there'. I understand it, and I don't know. I personally dig it. So.

[B]

You know, I remember growing up and my mom and dad would be on Sundays, particularly. All the funny papers would be. You know, all the papers would be in bed. In the bed. And we'd all get in bed.

[A]

I know we would, too. In my family, we would get in bed with my parents. It was really cozy Corners. I liked it.

[B]

Yeah, it was great. Yeah.

[A]

What kind of kid were you? Like, Describe who you were as a child?

[B]

Unformed, of course. Certainly unformed. You know, really unformed.

[A]

But were you driven as a child? Were you sort of drawn to art in some way?

[B]

Well, we were brought up. All of us were brought up. I'm one of six kids. So first of all, you always felt abandoned. You were never. Cause you were one of six. Like, you never got any.

[A]

And you were number three, I think is right.

[B]

Number three.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we moved a lot, which I loved and kind of. I think I've talked about this before, but it follows through into the assignment work. You know, basically, we would be in Bililoxi, Mississippi, for two years and then move to Fort Worth, Texas or something. So when things got to be, oh, it's not really great here. I'm not having a great time, you knew you were gonna leave so you didn't have to.

[A]

Oh, that's interesting.

[B]

Yeah. You could always reinvent yourself in the next town.

[A]

Uh huh. That's actually really interesting. You knew you were gonna leave. God. So you didn't have like a sense when you were a kid of sort of longing to stay in one place. You were kind of. You dug the moving around.

[B]

Wanted to leave. Yeah, wanted to leave. He wanted to go at a certain point.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And so my brothers and sisters were my best friends. I have very few childhood friends that I can say I don't have any kind, come to think of it, really, because we move so much and it's always been about family, always been about family, which is why I wanted to have children the long run.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But it was beaten into us early on, you know, like it's about family, it's about.

[A]

Well, it is ultimately, I think it is.

[B]

And right now it really is. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Right now it really is. Yeah.

[B]

Right now we really have to hold each other and our communities and our people together.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Just outside of it. It's a little strange.

[A]

So I'm going straight in. Rolling Stone. You were there, essentially the inception of Rolling Stone. Were you a music lover?

[B]

No, no, no.

[A]

Really?

[B]

No. No, no, no. It's really important to realize that. I went to the San Francisco Art Institute as a painting major and then I took a night class in photography. And then I became totally seduced and interested in photography in the darkroom and everything. And I was interested in photography, yes. And when I went to Rolling Stone, it was a young magazine that did more than music. They did popular culture. They were right. They were politics a lot. And I, you know, traveled with people like Hunter Thompson and Tom Wolfe and went down, you know, know, space launches. It was like the music was like so predictable to me, you know, that work, I mean, you were sort of at the mercy of whatever lighting person was, you know, what drugs they were on, you know, lighting the stage.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, it was like the worst. Worst. You know, I wasn't interested in. I wasn't a rock and roll photographer. I was a photographer and I applied what I had, you know, to. To that. So, I mean, I love music, you know, I remember when I did the Rolling Stones tour as their Tour photographer in 1975, I wished I was on Bob Dylan's Rolling Thunder tour. You know, I didn't really love the Rolling Stones music. You know, it was like, I thought, okay, you know, okay, Robert Frank, you know, was on their tour, you know, a couple years before and did this film called Sucker's Blues, which never got seen. But I said, okay, okay, you know. Cause, you know, Mick Jagger called me up and said, would you be the tour photographer? And I did. And it almost killed me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I was so naive.

[A]

And did it kill you from the. A drug point of view and addiction and all of that, or the schedule or all of the above and never sleeping? I'm assuming all of that.

[B]

Probably all above. I mean, it goes, you know, taking drugs goes with, you know, not going to sleep or staying up for two or three days or.

[A]

Right. Yeah. But, yeah, it does go with that. That's the equation.

[B]

But I didn't like it at all. I mean, I didn't like that it took over. It was so. Was not me. And then took me a while to not be that.

[A]

So how did you not be that?

[B]

Well, I tried many. I tried seeing therapists and people and blah, blah, blah, blah. And then eventually I went into a place in Summit, New Jersey, for a month, and I just like that it was over.

[A]

Oh, you mean a rehab place?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, it was just over. It was just over. I got the help I needed. And it was like, I so encourage anyone. It's like. Because, you know, to really want to do that. And then it's like. It's like they gave you all the tools you needed to not do it, and then you just move on.

[A]

Oh, God. It's lucky for you that it worked as well as it did. My God. Because a lot of people. That is not the case, but good for you. That's awesome. Can you tell the story, by the way of. Because it's a remarkable story, and I think it speaks to your. The ballsiness of you, even if you didn't feel it. Of the first time that you photographed John Lennon.

[B]

No, I mean, I. You know, again, was very young. I just started working at Rolling Stone. I had heard that Jan was going to New York to interview John. And I started to talk about it and said, you know, why don't you let me go and take the picture? You know, Yeah, I can stay with friends and Fly youth fair for $75 and. And you can own the negatives. I said, of course. That part he really liked. And I think that's why I got to go.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But it was such an important sitting, because it set for me what would be the predecessor for all the work I did from the nod. Cause John and Yoko were so welcoming and easy and without affectation. Yeah. And they just let me roam around. And you Know, I found out later that I think Yoko finally told me this, like 20 years later or something.

[A]

That.

[B]

That basically they were just so thrown that Jan hadn't hired some big fancy photographer, you know, that they. They just kind of, you know, and I was like, so young, and they just thought it was nice, you know, so they. They were so nice. So.

[A]

Oh, and then you got that amazing photo, I think, when you were just checking the light meter or something.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And to be clear, this is a solo portrait of John, not the one that you took a decade later of John and Yoko in bed together. Yeah, yeah, the solo one.

[B]

So I had. At that point, I was trying to be, you know, Margaret Burke White from Life magazine. And I had like, you know, I went through all those stages, you know, like Eugene Smith from Life magazine. Oh, I'm in photojournalist. That's what I. But I had three cameras. I had a camera that had a longer lens on it, a 105 that had a light meter in it. So I would use that as my light meter. And it wasn't a lens I liked. The 105 was a longer lens. And then I had another camera that had the 35, which is Cartier Bresson's, Robert Frank's, you know, lens of choice, which is more closer to how the eye sees. It's a little wider and it's more environmental. And so I was literally taking a light meter reading with John at the end of the table in a room. And I took a couple pictures at the same time. And then it was Jan who liked that picture. And I didn't like it. Cause it wasn't my kind of picture. You know, I didn't like a long lens picture.

[A]

Yeah. But you know what's interesting too, about that picture, actually that has just occurred to me is that there's no affect to it. It sort of reminds me of the portrait of your mom in that sense.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

There's nothing between them and the lens. It's just. That's truth. Yeah, that's hard to get.

[B]

You know, I don't know if it's so hard to get as it is to realize that that's there and it's not gotten.

[A]

Oh, I see.

[B]

You know, I think I have a little more to learn, for sure.

[A]

Have you ever made a mistake?

[B]

What?

[A]

And turned it. Wait, listen. Yeah, that's the question. Have you ever made a mistake? Annie Leibov.

[C]

That's.

[B]

That's like. That's all mistakes.

[A]

And turn. No, like, can you cite and maybe the Lennon thing is an example of that, of making a mistake, a really. A bad screw up, and turning it into an asset somehow with your work.

[B]

Well, I. I mean, it's hard to even understand that question because on some level, things happen like that. I mean, it's. You have. I think about the Nancy Pelosi picture where when she's walking away, I'm spending three days with her at the Capitol and I'm trying to catch up with her and she's in high heels and she's. I can't. I cannot catch up with this woman. I was trying to get in front of her, you know, like. And I couldn't do it. And I just, you know, shot. And I just, you know, went, I don't know, back to my studio or whatever and said, this is such a failure. And I looked at it and I said, oh, my God, that's Nancy Pelosi. You can't keep up with. You know, she's like, you know, she's like running. You know, those men couldn't keep up with her. And I just loved it. I just loved it. I managed. I go into a shoot, you try to be as prepared as possible, and then you hope for something will happen that you didn't expect or you want. You want something to happen that you don't know about. I'm a very good editor. I'm a very good editor. I mean, there's a lot of stuff that's on the floor, you know, that's like, you know, you want to throw away. I'm not worried about how many pictures I take, you know? Cause I know that I'm a very good editor.

[A]

I love that story about Nancy. You know, we talked to her on this podcast and you know what was really remarkable is that she's a big chocolate lover. And so I gave her a box of chocolates. This one in particular. We did this in person. And I'll be goddamned. She didn't start eating those chocolates right as we were talking. And it was actually really nice because I felt like she was loosening up, you know what I mean? And she was talking with chocolate in her mouth. It was just awesome. Anyway, I digress.

[B]

No, that's not digress. I love that. That's great.

[A]

Okay, it's time for another break. More with Annie Leibovitz in just a moment. And by the way, we just launched a Wiser than me newsletter where you can get behind the scenes details from my conversation with Annie Lebovitz and more. You can subscribe at wiser than me.substack.com you'll get photos and videos and letters from me. Think like exclusive bonus snippets, glimpses behind the scenes of the making of the podcast, a deeper dive into every guest, plus a place to connect with other Wiser Than Me listeners. I hope you subscribe at wiser than me substack.com and stick around to see what we have in store. Be right back. You know, AT&T believes hearing a voice can change everything. And if you love podcasts, you get it. The power of hearing someone speak is unmatched. It's why we save those voicemails from our loved ones. They mean something, you know? Who do you call when you need a little one on one holiday boost? Maybe it's your best friend who lives across the country, or your aunt who always seems to have the exact advice you need to hear. Or how about when you need to get hyped up for something big? Perhaps you call up your work bestie who's known for giving a pep talks. AT&T knows the holidays are the perfect time to do just that. Share your voice. If it's been a while since you called someone who matters, now's the time. Because it's more than just a conversation. It's a chance to say something they'll hear forever. So spread a little love with the call this season. Happy holidays from AT&T. Connecting changes everything. So here's a question. Who cares, really? Who cares about hunger or clean water or girls trying to get an education in the middle of a conflict zone? Who notices families struggling to rebuild after disaster, or communities just trying to survive? As a listener of this podcast, chances are you do. And so does CARE, the global humanitarian organization that works in over 100 countries with a special focus on women and girls. Like in Syria, when an earthquake destroyed Heba's farm. As a single mother, she refused to give up. With CARE's support, Heba rebuilt her farm, learned new skills, and was once again able to support her family. Car tackles the toughest challenges restoring clean water, delivering life, saving medical supplies, keeping girls in school, feeding families during famine, and helping entire communities rebuild after disaster. They don't just talk about making a difference. They make a difference every day in some of the most challenging places on earth. But care can't do it without you. Help provide life saving care around the world. Donate [e-mail] wiser so you're wandering the tiled streets of Lisbon, riding yellow trams that screech around impossible corners and getting lost in alleys that smell like grilled sardines and sea ash air. You've admired the hand painted ceramic tiles, listened to fado music spill out of taverns, and now you're on a mission for something truly local. If you're feeling bold, and you should be when you travel, head to Mercado da Ribera or a tucked away Tosca and order a plate of gooseneck barnacles. They look a bit like aliens, but are incredibly delicious. Every salty snap, every sip of vino verde, every hilltop view, it's Portugal at its most deliciously strange and beautiful. And while you're out soaking up the culture and taking in the beauty of one of the world's most stunning destinations, your place back home doesn't have to sit empty. It could be working for you. By hosting your home on Airbnb, your home can earn some extra money for you while you're away, helping to fund your next great adventure. So next time you pack your bags, give your home something to do while you're gone. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how [e-mail] host you've probably noticed it's been a rough year for, well, everything good in the world. Funding cuts have hit international aid hard. Programs are vanishing. Organizations are closing. Options have been stripped from women who had few to start with. But here's a little good news. The lights are still on at msi. Reproductive Choices MSI provides contraception, safe abortion and reproductive health care to women and girls around the world, often in places where no one else goes. MSI planned ahead and reduced reliance on US Government funding after Trump's first election. It was a very smart move, but they still lost $20 million in aid. The reason they're able to keep going? People like you, people who believe in women, choice and equality. Because of donors, millions of women still have access to care and to hope. So let's keep that going. To give Text the word wiser to 511511 text wiser to 511511 or visit MSI United States.org that's M as in modern S as in safe I as in informed msiunitedstates.org for $65, you can give 10 women contraception for a year. Text WISER to 511-511 to give. Together we can keep the lights and the choices on msiunitedstates.org text WISER to 511-511 and donate by the end of this year to msiunitedstates.org today. Text fees may apply. I want to talk about Susan and your partnership with Susan. And frankly, you know, a lot of people who listen to this thing. There's a lot. Of course, grief is a part of life, and if you've lived to a certain age, you know, you are going to have to walk with grief and be with it. So I wanted to talk to you about that period of time in your life when you lost your partner, Susan Sontag, and your father, and you were having all these babies all within a very short period of time.

[B]

It was amazing. It was amazing.

[A]

How did you do it?

[B]

You do it? You know. You know, we. When Susan died, I wasn't even too sure I had any photographs of her. But so she died, and I tried when she died, and on some level, you know, because it went over a long period of time. You know, when that happens, you're. There's a kind of a sense of relief as well, you know, that this person can be over that. You know, basically, they. They're. They're on. Although she never. What's really hard is she never really wanted to die. So, you know, that was really hard. She said, if I could just have five more years. Yeah, but we're all gonna, you know, know, we're all certainly gonna head there.

[A]

Gonna bite it at some point for sure.

[B]

So there was that work, and then I had all this. This. These photographs. I've never stopped taking photographs of my family. I love my family. I think they're in my best photographs. And then, you know, the children came along, and there was that whole period. And then Susan would get mad at me because she thought I didn't take enough pictures. She said, why are you taking more pictures? You know, it's like she'd get mad at me about everything. But. So when you see a photographer's life, you know, I am really photographing her because she wants to be photographed towards the end of her life. It was really her wanting that. Anyway, Photographer's Life is my best book because it's working. You see all of that and you see the story of every man, and you see the assignment work at the same time going on, you know, like Colin Powell and, you know.

[A]

Yeah, I know. It's interesting how it all bumps up against each other. You know, it's weird, too, when you have these big events happen. I'm sure lots of people have this experience. I certainly have. Like when I had a baby the first time and my world was turned upside down the way it does for any mother. And all of A sudden you and your life and your ego is on the back burner because somebody else's ego is front burner and you're in charge. And that's a flip of a switch. That's a biggie. And I remember thinking, wow. And then, you know, and I'm driving in the car and he's in the car seat and life is going on just like it was. What the hell? And your book tells that story. It sounds like your work got you through that period of time.

[B]

Totally. And I've said that about this, that definitely I was really lucky to have my work.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'll tell you, when I, when I worked on it, when I worked on the edit upstate in my barn, I mean, I was so deep into it, it really was my year of magical thinking, you know. You know, Joan Didion, it's. It's really. It really is. You go a little. You go insane, you know, you really, you really do. And I, and I worked on the edit for the book and it was like, I remember it was over 400 pages. And I took it into Andrew Wy agent, you know, to look at, and he went through it and I kept waiting for someone to say, you can't do this book. It's 400 pages. You know, you have to edit it down to 200 or something.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And no one ever said that.

[A]

They were.

[B]

I think they were afraid to tell me, you know, to edit or anything. And we, we published it for over 400 pages of these pictures. And I never really. I never really thought anyone was looking at it. I mean, I never thought anyone would look at it. You know what I mean? It was, it was, it wasn't like something I did for anyone else. I did it for myself. And so it was very strange when people started looking at it. I realized I had exposed my life. I don't think I could ever do that again like that, you know, Especially not with my children. I mean, they said that to me a few years back. They said, mom.

[A]

Oh, they did?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, and you have to respect that, of course. For sure.

[A]

How old are they now?

[B]

Well, Sarah's 24 and Susan and Samuel are 20. 19. 20. They're 20.

[A]

I know. Wow. Right? I know.

[B]

They're pretty cool. They're pretty great.

[A]

Was it hard for you when your kids took off for college and stuff?

[B]

No. I remember the COVID drop off was tough because they just said, okay, drop them off. And I was like, what, what, what? I can't go up to their room and just straighten out the bed or something. I just went into. I went to a corner and cried. It was like, me, too.

[A]

Me too. In fact, with our first son, we had both of them, and we dropped our first son off. And I remember really having to keep it together because I didn't want to lose my shit in front of my younger son, who was 13 at the time. But then when we dropped off our second kid, I started crying like we had had a horrific death in the family, and my husband had to say to the taxi driver, my wife's okay, it's all right. I just let it go. It's a bummer. I don't know. What's your experience now that sort of. They're a little bit past that moment? I mean, I know your younger ones are still studying, but.

[B]

Yeah, they're still. I mean, if I'm having any issue now about being older is that I decided to have them older. And I. You know, and my. My older daughter gets mad at me if I don't take care of myself. Mommy, I want you to, you know, live longer. You know, it's like, you know. You know, and you. You worry about that. But I. I believed in setting by example, by just working and then letting them see me work for sure, and not necessarily being so. So smothering and so close, because I just knew I was an older mom, and I knew they were going to have to sort of deal with me leaving earlier than possibly being around.

[A]

But were you always sanguine with it like that? I mean, you sound very.

[B]

I think part of even having more than one child was so they would have each other, because, you know, I am very close with my siblings. And, you know, when our parents did pass, you know, we really did close rank. You know, we really are tighter. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. That's beautiful. My husband's father always used to say that his biggest accomplishment was that his own children were close. And I think that there's something to be said for that.

[B]

I mean, you do realize it's pretty lucky what you have with your siblings, because a lot of families are not like that.

[A]

That's right. Yeah.

[B]

More families are not like that, actually.

[A]

Oh, God damn it. I don't know if it was Margaret Mead. Somebody said. Somebody said the big life challenge was to reconcile a sibling relationship. And if you can do that, you're well on your way. Something to that effect. I don't know if it's Margaret Mead or not. We could say it is.

[B]

Doesn't sound like Margaret Mead, do you think?

[A]

No, it really doesn't. It sounds like me bullshitting.

[B]

That's Jane Goodall. She's talking about chimpanzees. Ease. I. I do. I do love that picture. I. That's, you know, funny thing, finally looking at that picture of Jane Goodall and then, like, realizing, oh, because it was a very quick. It's a very quick shoot. And. And of course, I wanted to be in the jungle with her or something.

[A]

And where were you?

[B]

No, we were, like, backstage somewhere. I had, like, 10 minutes with her or something like that. And she hates having her picture taken, and maybe under those circumstances, she hated it. And, you know, I took several pictures, and then we went away from it. And then I looked at her face and said, oh, my God. You know, because at a certain point, she just stopped and gave me this look, you know, after, like, you know, hating it. Hating it. And then she stopped and looked at me, and I realized, oh, my God, she's looking at me. That's why those chimpanzees really trust her, because she was looking at. She was, like, dealing with it because everything's in her face.

[A]

Totally. And I have to say, am I crazy? But when I. I was looking at those pictures of her in your book, and I thought, oh, my God, does she look like this stunning chimpanzee in these photos? I'm not kidding.

[B]

Okay, now you're taking it too far. No, but I think it could have been the look, because that look, I mean, that's not a look for a photograph. That is like. Like. Like. Okay, I'm gonna deal with this person who's insane, and I'm gonna, like, you know, try to calm them down, and I'm gonna do this.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, what an incredible woman. She. She was a powerhouse. Yeah, but wait a minute. I wanna go back to you having kids for a second. So you had your kids when you were in your 50s? I'm not telling.

[B]

I'm not telling you.

[A]

Oh, come on. You told me how old you were.

[B]

No, no, no, no. Yeah, exactly 50. Yeah, exactly 49. 50. You know, what happened was I was seeing my. My. My doctor, and. And I was just crying because I said. I realized it was my late 40s. And I said, I can't believe I let this time go by. And I haven't done this, you know, and I haven't had children. And, you know, Susan wasn't interested in children, and. Because she was a big child and, you know, and wasn't interested, and I would talk about it every now and then, and she was not interested Besides, we didn't really have that kind of relationship. You know, we had two separate apartments, and she really had her. You know, we had our own world. But we really supported each other tremendously. But so. So he said to me, you can do it. And I said, really? And. And I did it.

[A]

Wow. Was it hard to be pregnant at that age or not so much?

[B]

No, not really. I was working. I was working. I was working. I remember going down and do Willie Nelson, and I was really pregnant and they were still so much pot, you know, in the. We were all stoned by my whole family. Whole family. I'm sorry. My whole crew.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then we all went to, you know, what is it? That salt pit afterwards to have like, you know, ribs or something. Because we ate like crazy. Because we were stoned. We were. We had secondary second. You know, what is it?

[A]

Secondhand smoke.

[B]

Secondhand smoke. And it's just like, I love Willie Nelson. Okay.

[A]

He is the greatest. Okay, now let me ask you a couple of quick questions. Is there something you go back and tell yourself at the age of 21?

[B]

I. I feel really lucky. What I had the opportunity to do. I don't know if I would have. Want to be 21 again.

[A]

No, I wouldn't for sure. Yeah. Forget it.

[B]

I mean, I edited my first half of my work, 1973-1983. I edited that those 10 years in, in, in depth. And I can stand outside of myself and look at that work and see this kind of energy and verve and insanity of the way I was working. And I kind of love whoever that person was, but I wouldn't want to be that person again.

[A]

So I'm guessing then another question that I often ask folks, is, is there something that you wish you'd said yes to? But it sounds like you said yes to everything that you wanted to say yes to.

[B]

That was the problem. I mean, everything was just too interesting.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

Everything. Every single thing was interesting. I was just interested and everything.

[A]

What are you looking forward to?

[B]

I just am so lucky that I love what I do. And I, I, I, I. I think it's the key is what you hope for your children as they find something they love to do.

[A]

Please, Christ.

[B]

Because it's just. Really makes it all just so incredible.

[A]

Oh, it truly does. There's nothing more rewarding than that. For real. So, Annie, one final question. Is there anything you want me to know about aging?

[B]

I think we started at the very beginning just to say that I'm really enjoying it, you know, I mean, I'm Enjoying kind of knowing what I'm doing. Except for this sort of stuff. Podcast stuff.

[A]

You did good. You did good.

[B]

No, no, I'm not. You did.

[A]

I mean, you know, he's. Here's what I like. No, because we had a conversation, which I appreciate.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, I like when we go off and we go somewhere else and, I mean, I'm enjoying it. Fuck it. What choice do we have? And let's go. And there's a lot to do still.

[B]

One step at a time here, you.

[A]

Know, One step at a time. And I really admire you, and I am very grateful. I am. I really do admire you an enormous amount. I really do. I always have. So thanks for taking the time today.

[B]

Thank you, Julia. Thank you.

[A]

Well, Annie Leibovitz is an extraordinary human being. There's no doubt about it. I know. My mom thinks so, too. So I can't wait to hear what she has to say about my conversation with Andy. Let's get her on the zoom. Hi, Mommy.

[B]

Hi, Navy.

[A]

How are you doing?

[C]

I'm doing fine. Doing fine. How are you doing?

[A]

I'm exhausted and very happy. I just had a really nice conversation with Annie Leibovitz.

[C]

Ah, what a figure, right?

[A]

Totally.

[C]

But the other thing was incredible about Annie was having a baby when she was 52.

[A]

She had a baby when she. Her first baby when she was 50, and then she had twins four years later. She had the twins by a surrogate. But these are her babies who are now in their early twenties. Isn't that incredible?

[C]

Incredible. Now, where she got the strength and the confidence to do that in her 50s. I can remember reading about that at the time and thinking how possibly what she had to do to her body and what she had to go through was incredible. And she must have had a drive. It was enormous to do that.

[A]

Yeah, I know. I admire her for it. So here is something else that she said which I thought was really interesting to think about. She says her mother always wanted them to smile in photos because they took a lot of family photos. She is one of six kids, and she has learned to never trust a smile, says Annie.

[C]

Actually, you look at family pictures and they all have these smiles pasted. We all have our smiles pasted on her face.

[A]

Yeah. And it's funny because you and I both have really big smiles. We have. You know, I inherited this big jaw from you, this big. This big mouth. And I'm very used to smiling for photos. And people, even photographers, have always said, you know, they want me to smile sometimes. It's like Less smile. Actually, one time I was having my photo taken at the dmv, and the lady, they took it, and then she looked at me and she goes, okay, let's do one more. A little less smile. And you know what else this reminds me of? Mom, do you remember that story about. About Henry when you were trying to take his picture? You came when Charlie, our second son, was born. Will you tell what Henry said to you? You're trying to take his picture.

[C]

Yeah. And he was with Charlie. And I said to him, I don't remember if I said smile, but I said, look happy. And so he said, granny, I haven't been happy one single day since Charlie was born. Now, by the way, I'd like to say the two boys are now like.

[A]

No, I know. They're joined at the hip.

[C]

I want that for sure, that Charlie knows that he was so welcome in the world.

[B]

But.

[A]

No, of course, no.

[C]

Bad.

[A]

No, no, it was. But the thing is, it was an honest child reaction to the moment. And to your point, you know, they're thick as thieves those, too.

[C]

And I. I remember that somebody said to me one time, if you can survive a sibling, you can survive anything in life.

[A]

Well, now, who said that? Because I mentioned this to Annie Leibovitz, and I thought maybe it was Margaret Mead, but it wasn't. Who was it?

[C]

I have no idea. Maybe you've heard me say it before.

[A]

Yes. Then you were the one I was quoting. But you don't know who you were quoting.

[C]

No, I don't know who I was quoting. I didn't make it up.

[A]

Yeah, okay, so I got news for you. It is Margaret Mead. Okay? Listen to this. Sister is probably the most competitive relationship within the family, but once the sisters are grown, it becomes the strongest relationship. I would replace the word sister with sibling. Well, anyway, that sort of dances around the idea, I guess.

[C]

Right, right, right. You know, sharing a parent's love is. Is, like, threatening beyond measure. And that's what happens with the sibling. You have to share the love. And that's. Especially if you're the. You know, the king or the queen, and you're used to having it all to yourself, and then all of a sudden, wham, right? This little wee wee.

[A]

Yeah, I know. I mean, it is such a hard transition to make. But then once that transition is made, you know, you're the better for it. The siblings are, like I said, they're just joined at the hip. All right, Mom, I'm happy I got to chat with you. Once again, same for me.

[C]

I'm always happy to chat with you. The more the merrier.

[A]

Okay, Love you, Mom. Have a fabulous day. You too. Love you. Bye. Love you. Bye. There's more Wiser Than Me with Lemonada Premium. You can now listen to every episode ad free. Plus subscribers also get access to exclusive bonus interview excerpts from each guest. Just tap that subscribe button on Apple Podcasts. Head to Lemonada Premium to subscribe on any other app or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. That's lemonadapremium.com make sure you're following Wiser Than Me on social media. We're on Instagram and TikTok at wiser than Me and we're on Facebook at Wiser Than Me podcast. We're also on substack at wiser than me.substack.com wiser than me is a production of Lemonada Media, created and hosted by me, Julia Louis Dreyfus. The show is produced by Chrissy Pease and Oja Lopez. Brad hall is a consulting producer, Rachel Neal is consulting Senior editor, and our SVP of weekly content and production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Paula Kaplan, Stephanie Whittles, Wax, Jessica Cordova, Kramer and me. The show is mixed by Johnny Vince Evans with engineering help from James Sparber, and our music was written by Henry hall, who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music. Special thanks to Will Schlegel and of course my mother, Judith Bowles. Follow Wiser Than Me wherever you get your podcasts and if there's an old lady in your life, listen up.