Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus

Episode: Julia Gets Wise with Annie Leibovitz
Air Date: December 3, 2025
Host: Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Guest: Annie Leibovitz

Episode Overview

In the Season 4 opener, Julia Louis-Dreyfus dives deep into the art, psyche, and accumulated wisdom of legendary photographer Annie Leibovitz, whose iconic work has shaped how we see celebrities, culture, and womanhood for more than five decades. Through candid and insightful conversation, Julia and Annie explore memory, aging, family, vulnerability, grief, creativity, and the unique challenge—and power—of photographing women. The episode is a blend of nostalgia, art appreciation, and hard-won life lessons, all delivered with Julia’s humor and warmth.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Emotional Power of Photographs (00:23–08:44)

• Julia opens with an emotional recounting of losing her family photos in a house fire, including rare, irreplaceable generational images.
• Reflects on why photographs matter so profoundly, quoting Diane Arbus:
  “A photograph is a secret about a secret. The more it tells you, the less you know.” (02:24)
• Julia’s joy at salvaging a single black-and-white passport photo with her mother highlights how the meaning of photos can deepen over time.

2. Annie Leibovitz: Defining Eras Through Photography (08:44–09:55)

• Julia praises Annie’s groundbreaking style that redefined celebrity portraiture, blending narrative, intimacy, humor, and cultural commentary.
• “If you’re under 50 and you’ve ever seen a photo of a celebrity that stopped you in your tracks, chances are it’s an Annie Leibovitz.” (06:32)

3. On Aging and Knowing Yourself (09:36–10:25)

• Annie (age 76) shares her positive outlook on aging:
  • "I just love getting older. You kind of know what you're doing." (09:53)
  • She finds value in “doing things a little bit more methodically... not methodically, but slower.”
• Julia asks, “How old do you feel?” Annie jokes she feels “7 or 12” per her daughter, but mostly “35 or 40.” (09:38)

4. Comedians, Authenticity, and Portraiture (10:40–12:48)

• Annie’s deep respect for comedians:
  • “They're so smart, they're so intelligent, they're so manic depressive... No one really understands how brilliant our comedians are.” (11:22)
  • Discusses challenges in capturing humor and depth in photographs.
• The importance of trust and role-playing for actors in portraits.

5. Photographing Women & The Complexity of Aging (13:02–16:58)

• Julia asks about Annie’s approach to photographing older women, referencing Annie’s portrait of her mother:
  • Annie recalls her mother’s vulnerability, her fear of looking old, and how family tradition shaped her distrust of smiles in photos.
  • “I began to distrust the smile. I didn't believe in the smile.” (13:31)
  • The photograph taught Annie about vulnerability and authenticity:
    • “She really is looking as if there's no camera there. And that is... what you want as a photographer.” (15:24)

6. Being Photographed vs. Taking Photos (17:01–19:41)

• Annie admits, “I can't stand it” when asked if she’s comfortable being photographed (17:01).
• She ponders self-portraits and the oddness of self-image: mirrors vs. photos (17:55).

7. Iconic Celebrity Photography & Changing Perceptions of Beauty (20:43–22:07)

• Julia shares how the famous naked, pregnant Demi Moore portrait changed her view on pregnancy and beauty.
• Annie notes that the image wasn’t initially considered publishable; it was controversial in some regions:
  • “It did get taken off the newsstands in the South.” (21:47)
• Annie relates this to Gloria Steinem’s message in “Women 2”:
  • “How we are seen changes how we see ourselves.” (22:07)

8. Gender, Visibility, and Using Invisibility as Power (23:10–24:15)

• Annie reads from Gloria Steinem’s essay on:
  • The dismissal of women in professional settings.
  • “I would be in rooms and no one took me seriously... I actually used that and loved it.” (24:06)
• Discusses the paradoxical freedom of being overlooked as a woman and as a photographer.

9. The Studio vs. Real Life (29:52–32:19)

• Annie prefers on-location shoots to studio work:
  • “It doesn't give me enough... real life going on… I love to start at someone's home.” (29:55)
• Julia comments on Annie’s penchant for photographing people in beds; Annie acknowledges, with humor, that she had to scale it back at partner Susan Sontag’s request.

10. Childhood, Family & Reinvention (32:38–34:08)

• Annie, one of six children, details a nomadic childhood and the strong role of family, which influenced her later desire to have children.
  • “It’s always been about family, always been about family, which is why I wanted to have children in the long run.” (34:00)

11. Rolling Stone Years and Avoiding Rock-Star Stereotypes (34:22–36:55)

• Surprisingly, Annie wasn’t a “music lover”—she was drawn to the photography, not the scene:
  • “I wasn’t a rock-and-roll photographer. I was a photographer.” (35:17)
• Speaks candidly about struggles with addiction during the chaotic touring years and her recovery through rehab in her 30s (36:36).

12. Early John Lennon Portraits: Boldness & Beginner’s Luck (37:34–40:12)

• Annie shares the story of photographing John Lennon as a young, largely unknown photographer:
  • “Jan [Wenner] liked that I offered to fly youth fare and he could ‘own the negatives.’ That’s probably why I got to go.” (37:34)
• The resulting images—marked by a lack of affect and authenticity—shaped her approach to future portraiture.

13. Turning Mistakes into Art (40:41–42:11)

• Annie tells the story of photographing Nancy Pelosi:
  • Missed the “classic” shot, but recognized the power in an image where Pelosi is striding away, impossible to keep up with.
  • “That’s Nancy Pelosi. You can’t keep up with her.” (41:17)
• Annie considers herself a “very good editor” who embraces unexpected moments.

14. Grief, Family, and Working Through Loss (49:28–54:32)

• Annie discusses the overlapping losses of her partner Susan Sontag and her father, while becoming a mother in her 50s:
  • “When Susan died... I wasn’t even sure I had any photographs of her.” (49:32)
• Her project “Photographer’s Life” acted as a therapeutic record:
  • “I was really lucky to have my work” (51:56)
• On photographing family:
  • “I never really thought anyone was looking at it...I did it for myself.” (52:42)

15. Motherhood and Aging (54:32–59:03)

• Annie had her first child at 50 and twins by surrogate four years later, reflecting on the balance of age, work, and parenting.
  • “I believed in setting by example—by just working and letting them see me work.” (55:13)
• Discusses her strategies and worries about being an older parent, wanting to ensure her children support each other, as she did with her siblings.

16. On Regrets, Looking Back, and What’s Next (59:42–61:44)

• No desire to be 21 again:
  • “I can stand outside of myself and look at that work and see this kind of energy and verve and insanity... but I wouldn’t want to be that person again.” (59:48)
• Her biggest “problem” was being interested in “everything.”
• What she hopes most for her children:
  • “That they find something they love to do.” (60:50)
• On aging:
  • “I’m really enjoying it... I mean, I’m enjoying kind of knowing what I’m doing... I’m enjoying it. Fuck it. What choice do we have? And let’s go. And there’s a lot to do still.” (61:13, 61:33)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Power of Photographs:
  “A photograph is a secret about a secret. The more it tells you, the less you know.” – Julia quoting Diane Arbus (02:24)
• On Comedians:
  “They're so smart, they're so intelligent, they're so manic depressive… No one really understands how brilliant our comedians are.” – Annie (11:22)
• On Vulnerability in Portraiture:
  “I began to distrust the smile. I didn't believe in the smile.” – Annie (13:31)
  “She really is looking as if there’s no camera there. And that is… what you want as a photographer.” – Annie on her mother’s portrait (15:24)
• On Being Photographed:
  “I can’t stand it.” – Annie (17:01)
• On Cultural Change and Female Visibility:
  “How we are seen changes how we see ourselves.” – Annie quoting Gloria Steinem (22:07) “I would be in rooms and no one took me seriously... I actually used that and loved it.” (24:06)

Timestamps for Major Segments

| Timestamp | Segment/Discussion | |-----------------|---------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:23–08:44 | Julia describes losing her family photos in the fire | | 08:44–09:55 | Julia introduces Annie Leibovitz and her impact | | 09:36–10:25 | Annie on aging and what she loves about it | | 10:40–12:48 | On comedians and the difficulty/humor of photographing comedy | | 13:02–16:58 | Portraits of older women, vulnerability, and distrust of smiles | | 17:01–19:41 | Annie on discomfort with being photographed | | 20:43–22:07 | Demi Moore’s photo & women’s self-image | | 23:10–24:15 | Steinem’s essay: invisibility as power for women | | 29:52–32:19 | Studio vs. on-location, “bed” portraits | | 34:22–36:55 | Rolling Stone, music photography, addiction & recovery | | 37:34–40:12 | Early John Lennon portrait, luck, and learning | | 40:41–42:11 | Mistakes turned to art – Nancy Pelosi story | | 49:28–54:32 | Grief, loss, and the healing power of work | | 54:32–59:03 | Motherhood, aging, sibling bonds | | 59:42–61:44 | Reflections on regret, passion, and the future |

Episode Tone

• Reflective, humorous, and deeply personal.
• Intimate honesty around vulnerability, creativity, and aging.
• Empowering insights—especially on female agency and reinvention.
• Playful exchanges and mutual admiration between Julia and Annie.

For Listeners

Whether you’re an artist, a parent, or just appreciating the wisdom that comes with time, this episode delivers a masterclass in seeing—yourself, others, and the world—with fresh eyes. Annie Leibovitz’s candor about her life, work, and joys of aging offers encouragement to embrace vulnerability, savor family, and keep moving forward.

Memorable closing exchange:
“I mean, I’m enjoying it. Fuck it. What choice do we have? And let’s go. And there’s a lot to do still.” – Julia (61:33)
“One step at a time here, you know, one step at a time.” – Annie (61:44)