Julia Gets Wise with Glenn Close

Summary

Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus

Season 4, Episode 1: Julia Gets Wise with Glenn Close
Release Date: December 10, 2025
Host: Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Guest: Glenn Close

---

Episode Overview

Julia Louis-Dreyfus kicks off Season 4 of "Wiser Than Me" by sitting down with the legendary, multifaceted Glenn Close. In a conversation that is both moving and delightfully candid, Julia and Glenn discuss the complexities of aging, Glenn’s unconventional childhood, her long career, life in Montana, mental health advocacy, and the wisdom gleaned from decades in the spotlight. The episode is packed with deep insights, wit, and the indelible sense that both women are eager to break new creative ground—even as they reflect on the past.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Glenn Close’s Life in Montana and Finding Home

[07:50] - [09:24]

• Glenn describes her “luckiest thing”: buying land in Bozeman, Montana, before the area’s boom, creating a legacy for her family on property bordering national forest.
• She shares her happiness in reconstructing a stone cottage that resembles her childhood refuge, stating, “That’s where I’m gonna die. Happily.”
• Notable Quote:

  "The happiest and most inspiring years of my life was in that place. And I have decided that I am gonna end my days in that cottage." (Glenn Close, 09:17)

2. Talking Age and Living Backward

[11:18] - [15:44]

• Glenn openly states her age (78), but insists she feels like she’s in her 20s or 30s.
• Describes a childhood “soul awareness” that shaped her perspective—her body as a “house” for whatever is “looking out of my eyes.”
• She emphasizes the power of eye contact, mourning the loss of human connection in a digital age.
• Notable Quote:

  "Who I am has always been whatever is looking out of my eyes." (Glenn Close, 11:41)

3. The Joys and Realities of Aging

[14:44] - [15:50]

• Glenn appreciates not worrying about pleasing people and values the depth of long-term relationships.
• Finds herself learning more now than ever:

  "I'm probably discovering more now than I ever have. I feel I'm finally maybe getting to the place where I can settle into who I am and not have to worry about pleasing people all the time." (Glenn Close, 15:06)

• Enjoys the richness of shared history (“I like having a history with people…”).

4. Becoming a Grandmother and Reflections on Motherhood

[15:52] - [18:09]

• Glenn is relishing her new role as “grandma” and cherishes time with her grandson Rory.
• She reflects regretfully on missing time with her daughter Annie as a baby due to work, and is making up for it now.
• On balancing motherhood and career, she and Julia agree:

  "As soon as you have a child, you're basically cut in half." (Glenn Close, 18:42)

  • Both credit having resources and support as essential.

5. The Realities (and Absurdities) of Showbiz

[02:22] - [03:59]

• Julia recounts a devastating audition that culminated in seeing the role go to someone else—illustrating show business’s unpredictability.
• She expresses admiration for actors over 70 who continue “risking everything”—calling them “heroic.”

6. Revisiting Iconic Roles and Misunderstood Women

[28:13] - [32:04]

• Glenn discusses “Fatal Attraction,” detailing her deep research and her sympathy for Alex Forrest, viewing her as a tragic figure, not a villain.
• Julia urges a retelling from Alex’s perspective; Glenn is game:

  "Let's do it together." (Glenn Close, 31:02)

• Glenn speaks about “Dangerous Liaisons,” describing audience demands for “punishment” of powerful women characters.
• On vicious endings:

  "It's not enough that she kills herself. No, no, no. She has to be shot, you know, in order to restore order to the family. It's a basic Greek tragedy." (Glenn Close, 30:35)

7. Influence of Family Women & Channeling Them in Her Work

[33:02] - [40:37]

• Glenn’s grandmothers were strong characters—and sources for parts she played (“Granny Close” inspired her “Reversal of Fortune” meltdown).
• Julia and Glenn swap stories about grandmothers’ quirks, temperaments, and the curiosities of older generations.
• Glenn describes how her maternal grandmother inspired “Jenny Fields” in The World According to Garp.
• Emphasis on the value of curiosity and truly seeing people.

8. Childhood Trauma: Growing Up in the MRA (Moral Rearmament)

[46:09] - [53:17]

• Glenn discloses the emotional and psychological wounds of being raised in a fundamentalist group.
• Recounts a heart-wrenching memory as a child, feeling guilty for her parents’ abandonment.
• Speaks openly about generational trauma and the burden of forgiveness:

  "The burden of forgiveness is always with the child." (Glenn Close, 54:44)

9. Healing and Forgiveness

[54:21] - [56:38]

• Glenn found forgiveness through understanding her parents’ own traumas.
• Discusses writing a candid letter to her father and gaining emotional liberation by confronting the truth.

10. Up With People & Personal Growth

[56:51] - [58:52]

• Glenn’s years performing with Up With People—a group connected to the cult—delayed her formal education and romantic experiences.
• Julia reveals her own family’s brush with "Up With People," adding a touch of levity.

11. Lessons From Parenting and Relationships

[58:52] - [61:12]

• Glenn does not feel she brought cult-related “baggage” into motherhood, but notes her "empty toolbox" when it came to adult relationships.
• Observes that her daughter’s generation seems to be forming healthier partnerships and takes pride in that progress.

12. Her Ongoing Creative Drive

[61:12] - [65:13]

• Glenn no longer feels the need to “prove” herself but still seeks creative satisfaction.
• Describes her role in an upcoming “Hunger Games” prequel and the excitement of physically transforming for a part.
• Talks the nitty-gritty of facial prosthetics and creating iconic looks, delighting Julia with exclusive photos over Zoom.
• Notable Quote:

  "It's so much fun...I did not look like myself. It was so fabulous." (Glenn Close, 64:07)

13. Mental Health Advocacy and Family

[70:15] - [76:09]

• Glenn explains how her sister Jessie's struggle with bipolar disorder—and her nephew’s diagnosis—propelled the founding of Bring Change to Mind.
• Stigma, she notes, is “just as bad as the illnesses themselves."
• Advocates for honest conversations about mental health, especially among youth.

14. Closing Reflections & Practical Wisdom

Rapid-Fire Q&A [76:28] - [79:02]:

• What would she tell her 21-year-old self? “Get out of it [the cult]. Get an education.”
• Something she’d say yes to? A missed romantic opportunity with Robert Redford (“I was too clueless”).
• Top advice about aging:

  "Try to fall in love with your skin...I wanted to find a tree bark that looked like the skin of my arm, and it would make me feel like I belong." (Glenn Close, 78:30)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On childhood realization:
  "Who I am has always been whatever is looking out of my eyes." (Glenn Close, 11:41)

• On being split by motherhood:
  "As soon as you have a child, you're basically cut in half." (Glenn Close, 18:42)

• On Alex Forrest (“Fatal Attraction”):
  "She really was a tragic figure...she is now considered one of the great villains..." (Glenn Close, 28:33)

• On forgiveness:
  "The burden of forgiveness is always with the child." (Glenn Close, 54:44)

• On advice for aging:
  "Try to fall in love with your skin." (Glenn Close, 78:30)

• On missing out on Robert Redford:
  "I was too clueless...didn't get it." (Glenn Close, 77:48)

---

Important Timestamps

| Time | Segment / Topic | |-----------|-------------------------------------------------------------| | 07:50 | Glenn’s Home/Life in Montana; Family legacy. | | 11:18 | Discussing age, feeling young, “soul” awareness. | | 18:09 | Navigating parenting, regret, and the working mom balance. | | 28:33 | Portraying Alex Forrest as a tragic figure. | | 33:02 | Channeling grandmothers in her characters. | | 46:09 | The impact of growing up in Moral Rearmament (MRA). | | 54:44 | On forgiveness and healing family trauma. | | 58:52 | Impact of childhood experience on Glenn’s own motherhood. | | 61:32 | Career motivations, embracing transformation for new roles. | | 70:30 | Mental health advocacy and founding Bring Change to Mind. | | 76:28 | Lightning round—advice to her younger self & aging insights. |

---

Tone & Language

The episode is conversational, warm, honest, and peppered with comic asides and moments of vulnerability. Julia and Glenn meet as peers—and occasionally as co-conspirators, especially as they brainstorm reclaiming villainous women’s stories or marvel at family eccentricities.

---

For Listeners

This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in Glenn Close’s life and legacy, the realities of aging in the public eye, the healing process after family trauma, the inside baseball of acting, and the challenge—and joy—of reinventing oneself at any age.

---

Summary by Podcast Summarizer AI | December 2025

Transcript

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Hearing a voice can change everything. So AT&T wants everyone to gift their voice to loved ones this holiday season because that conversation is a chance to say something they'll hear forever. AT&T connecting changes everything.

[Glenn Close]

Lemonade.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Every actor who's been around for a minute has an audition story. And here is mine. You may have heard part of this story before, but I want you to hear the whole thing. This was a really long time ago, like between SNL and Seinfeld, and I was living in New York, and I got an audition for the movie About Last Night. This was a movie with a lot of heat on it. It was being directed by Ed Zwick, and it was based on a play by David Mamet, the preeminent American playwright of the day. And it had been adapted by my close Chicago pal Tim Kazarinski. And the role that I was auditioning for was Joan the Cynical, which is, you know, come on, let's face it, that's, like, right in my wheelhouse. So, okay, I go to this hotel for the audition, and I'm in the hallway waiting for my turn to go in. And from inside the room, I hear this big laugh, and out comes Demi Moore, who was like, peak Brat Pack at that moment. And she did this adorable little twirl, and everybody was waving goodbye to her, and they were craning their necks to see her go. She was so beautiful.

[Glenn Close]

Beautiful.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And that's when the casting assistant says, julia Louis Dreyfus. And I'm like, oh, fuck, I have to follow that. I mean, even though I wasn't reading for the same part as Demi Moore, I mean, her. Just her confidence and the fact that she had obviously killed in the room, it was just also very intimidating. I remember exactly nothing about the audition, and that gives you an idea of the trauma that I experienced. For the next three minutes or so in, it was terrible, and it should have been great. I mean, I was right for the part. I was prepared. That it was such a disaster was a total fluke. All I needed was another chance. But of course, you know, you don't get another chance unless you get called back. And I really wasn't getting called back for that, that was for sure. So guess what I did. I went home and I wrote the director, Ed Zwick, a handwritten note, and I was completely honest, and. And I begged him for one more chance. I told him that I knew I could just nail the role of Joan. And I took the note back to the hotel, and I gave it to the concierge, who told me that he would absolutely deliver it personally to Mr. Zwick, which he did. And you know what? Ed Zwick is not only a wonderful director, but he's also a wonderful man. And he said, absolutely. Come back tomorrow. We would be so very happy to see you again. And I ran that Jones scene a fast in my apartment that night. And the next day, just brimming with confidence and buoyed by my display of classic, you know, show biz chutzpah, I walked back into that room where I could feel Ed Zwick and the producers rooting for me because I'd taken a chance and it was paying off. Eleven months later, almost to the day, about last night opened, and guess what? When I nervously read the review in the New York Times, they didn't love the movie, but they said, standing out in the role of Joan, a kindergarten teacher who says very funny and very rude things to men in a singles bar, is the excellent Elizabeth Perkins.

Oh, my God. Not for the faint of heart, this show business. That's why one of my.

My favorite things in the world is an actor over 70 who is still working, still risking everything on stage or in front of a camera and has great stories to tell. I think it's kind of heroic, really. How fitting then, that today we get to talk to Glenn Close.

I'm Julia Louis Dreyfus, and this is Wiser Than Me, the podcast where I get schooled by women who are wiser than me.

So you're walking along a creek in Bozeman, Montana. Sacajawea peak rises nearly 10,000ft above. The snow crunches underfoot as you move through the beautiful, untamed wilderness. And then up ahead, you see her, a woman with the most striking, gorgeous white hair moving confidently through the snow. And yeah, it's Glenn Close, who is now settled in Bozeman among bears and mountain bluebirds, being, you know, fabulous Glenn Close.

I got to watch her in Fatal Attraction again last night. And let me tell you something. That movie holds up. And you know why it holds up? Because Glenn Close has this weight, this power, this inner light, this complete commitment when she takes a role, any role, Alex Forrest, Patty Hughes, Albert Nobs, and hundreds more. Man, she loves to work. I can't believe how much this woman works for every role. She and Gina, a real person. Even when it's Cruella De Vil, Glenn Close makes it the real Cruella De Vil, the Cruella who would do all of those horrible, terrible Cruella things. And she still gets all the laughs. And on stage, Good Lord, I was lucky enough to see her on Broadway and Sunset Boulevard and it was a full on tour de force for real. Glenn didn't grow up like most actors. She grew up inside the mra, a fundamentalist movement she later called a cult. Somehow she emerged from that with an enormous heart and a capacity for compassion and forgiveness that shows up in all of her performances on the screen and on stage. Beyond performing, she co founded Bring Change to Mind with her sister Jessie, turning a family struggle into a mission to break the stigma around mental illness, reaching 2 billion people and supporting tens of thousands of students. Along the way, she's won Tonys and Golden Globes and Emmys and is an eight time Oscar nominee. That is right, eight times. This year she became a first time grandmother, which feels like a great way for her to start her third act. Welcome. Mother, sister, aunt, actor, producer, writer, and now grandmother and a woman who is so much wiser than me, Glenn Close. Hi, Glenn.

[Glenn Close]

Hi. Hi. I do not think I'm wise at all.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, we'll see. Somehow I think you are quite wise and I'm delighted to have you here. What an honor and a treat.

[Glenn Close]

Great to be with you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay, so you live in Montana, although I'm talking to you now, you're in Berlin, which is a far cry from Bozeman, Montana. What does a good day look like for you in Bozeman? Are you a hiker? Do you get out in the mountains or.

[Glenn Close]

I love to hike. I love to hike, but I'm so. Oh God. I think probably the best luckiest thing that ever happened in my life is that before the big onslaught of people moving to Bozeman that started during COVID I was able to find a piece of land that had actually been on the market for seven years and I was able to buy it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Wow.

[Glenn Close]

And that is my legacy to my daughter and her husband and their child and to my family. We're right up against the Bridgers and the property goes up into the national forest. There will be nothing in between us and that. And we have mountain lions, elk, moose, deer, bears, whatever, you know, grouse. And it's the greatest gift of my life. It is.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I love that you were able to create that for yourself and you recreated your grandparents cottage. Is this correct?

[Glenn Close]

Oh, yeah. That was kind of weird.

My grandparents didn't actually live in a cottage. They lived in a house that was bigger than a cottage. But they had this wonderful stone cottage on their farm on their property that I think originally had been a slaughterhouse.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, God.

[Glenn Close]

But it was made into this really cozy cotton cottage. And that was my first memory in that little cottage.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Got it.

[Glenn Close]

Stone, it had ivy on the front, had literally a white picket fence around it in the middle of a hay field and woods. So I decided when I was building this house, because I'm living my life backwards, that behind the house I was going to build a cottage, a stone cottage. Because the happiest and most inspiring years of my life was in that place. And I have decided that I am gonna end my days in that cottage. So there's two bedrooms for me and my caretaker eventually.

And that's where I'm gonna. That's where I'm gonna die.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh my God.

[Glenn Close]

Happily.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That is extraordinary. That's extraordinary. Is it? It's actually built now or you're building it?

[Glenn Close]

Yes, I think the stone part is built and I think this week they start with a porch. There's a little porch that goes down onto a terraces between the cottage and the bigger house. Yeah. It makes me so happy.

Makes me so happy to think that.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I think that's such an incredible thing to really. You call it living your life backwards, but you're really.

Sort of in control of things in a way that most people don't get the opportunity to do. And I think that's extraordinary that you've been able to pull that off. And I'm just now thinking, I gotta build a cottage around here for myself.

I gotta build a two bedroom cottage. I gotta figure that one out. I'm gonna do that.

[Glenn Close]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So tell me, are you comfortable if I ask your real age?

[Glenn Close]

78.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

How old do you feel?

[Glenn Close]

Oh, God, I feel probably around in my 20s.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh really?

[Glenn Close]

Maybe early 30s.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

How is that? Why is that? What is it about feeling that younger age?

[Glenn Close]

I don't know, I just, I don't. When I think of how old I actually am, it just amazes me. So I don't think about it much.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Glenn Close]

Cause I don't think I fit into whatever people expect you to be like when you're 78 years old.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Glenn Close]

And I'm thinking about a lot because I had this experience when I was really, really little where I was sitting in this open field plucking. I used to like to pluck the, you know, the juicy parts of clover blossoms and bite down on them because they're sweet. But I all of a sudden started concentrating on my hand. And then my fingers came down and plucked up the little piece of the clover, put it in my mouth. And I realized that what was ever making that hand work was not really who I am. That who I am was whatever was looking out of my eyes. And I felt that my body is just the particular house I was put in on this planet. And I feel, thank God, it's kind of, you know, it's aging. Kind of needs a little bit of renovation, but it's holding up pretty well. But I really feel like who I am has always been whatever is looking out of my eyes.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I'm absolutely fascinated that you tell that story because it sounds like you had an awareness of your soul at that young, tender age. Correct.

[Glenn Close]

It's what it is, if that's what it was. But I certainly had an awareness.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Wow.

[Glenn Close]

That there was something that I was very aware of the mechanics of my arm and my hand and my fingers doing that particular act. And I felt that it was different that the body that was holding it. Holding it and doing that action. I felt I was the observer of that.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It's an incredible thing to consider and that you became an actor that is, in a strange way, it's almost like an acting awareness, huh? Isn't it? Kind of. You know.

[Glenn Close]

Yeah. Because I think I think of acting as, you know, looking into someone else's eyes and reflecting off of that.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Glenn Close]

And the most powerful thing in film is the closeup doesn't exist on stage, but the closeup, when it's well used by a director, will keep an audience emotionally engaged because it's like you're looking into somebody else's eyes up close. I don't think there's anything more powerful than two eyes looking into two eyes. And I think that's one of the reasons why we all seem to be floating in this.

Almost dystopian world, because we're getting further and further away from that. It's not the same the way you and I are looking at each other through a screen. It's just not the same.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It's not the same. What do you think is the best part about being your age, Glenn?

[Glenn Close]

Do you think the best part.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, the best part, I wonder.

[Glenn Close]

The best part is, first of all, oh, God. I mean, there's a lot of. I mean.

I'm living my life backwards. I feel like I'm probably discovering more now than I ever have.

I feel I'm finally maybe getting to the place where I can settle into who I am and not have to worry about pleasing people all the time.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, that's nice.

[Glenn Close]

Which was a really big thing to try to deal with. And another great thing is that you've had experience. I mean, even in my profession, in my craft, you feel like there are more possibilities because, you know more, you've done more, you've learned more. Yeah. And also, I really love the fact that I've known some people for a very long time.

I like having a history with people, beginning with my family, of course.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Glenn Close]

It really means a lot to me.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. Hey, I know you have a new grandbaby. What kind of grandma are you? Do you like being a grandmother?

[Glenn Close]

I love being a grandmother. And we FaceTime. In fact, we FaceTime about an hour ago. He's growing up so fast. He was born in February during a snowstorm.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, were you there for that?

[Glenn Close]

Yeah, I was there, kind of by a miracle. Cause I was doing All's Fair in la, and.

It was around the times of the fires. The fires weren't a miracle. The fires were horrendous. But we were on a hiatus for a week. And it was during that time that he was born. So I was there.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, wow. Okay. So you got to be there.

[Glenn Close]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. And are you very. A part of his life? And as a grandma, how does that work? How are you doing all of this?

[Glenn Close]

I try to be as much of a part as I can, but I know that it's important for my daughter Annie and her husband, Mark and Rory is his name. They have their family unit. You know, you don't always want to have grandma hanging out. So sometimes I'll say, can I come over? But I think we have it pretty well worked out. I think they know, of course, how much it means to me to be with him. And just. I love getting in his playpen and playing with him and just watching him figure things out. He has wonderful concentration. I love that. I mean, I could practically hear his brain cells popping, you know, his little fingers to make him. You know, first he can't grabs stuff, and then he grabs it, and then he can look at it, and then he. It's just, you know, I was working when Annie was born. She was only seven weeks old when I went over to do Dangerous Liaisons. Oh. So I was lucky enough to have a magnificent woman with me, but I wasn't. I didn't spend the kind of time that Annie has spent with Rory because I was working. So it's almost like I'm reliving her babyhood through her son's babyhood and kind of filling in the gaps that I missed.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Can you talk about that? About the experience of working the way you did with a child and how. I mean, I understand in the beginning you had dangerous liaisons. But then what happened after that? How did you.

Sort of straddle it all? What did you learn from that experience? Cause that's hard. It's massive demand, both at work. I mean, incredible.

[Glenn Close]

Well, you've gone through it. You know what it is?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I've gone through it.

[Glenn Close]

You're cut in half. I think certainly I could only speak as a woman.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, of course. Because that's what we are.

[Glenn Close]

But I think as soon as you have a child, you're basically cut in half. Half of you is with your child and half of you is with you. And it's. I think that's why women age faster than men. Perhaps because you don't sleep as well, because your ear is always tuned towards your child.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Would you have done anything differently, do you think, looking back on that period of time?

[Glenn Close]

No.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

The only.

[Glenn Close]

I mean, I have to say, where I was so lucky was that I could afford help.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, me too. Exactly.

[Glenn Close]

And if I couldn't have afforded help, I would have had to stop working. And working was the way I made my living and could afford taking care of my child. Right. But, you know, I'd come to a point in my career where it was just around. I remember I was really, really sick with. I'd just gotten pregnant and I was throwing up all the time. And it was the opening of Fatal Attraction and I was pregnant. And I remember after the screening in New York, there was a big party at Tavern of the Green and all I could eat was rice.

I was so throwing up all the time.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, you poor soul.

It's time for a break. More with Glenn Close in just a moment. And by the way, we just launched a Wiser Than Me newsletter where you can get behind the scenes details from my conversation with Glenn and more. You can subscribe now at wiser than me.substack.com you'll get photos and videos, letters from me, think exclusive bonus snippets, glimpses behind the scenes of the making of the podcast, a deeper dive into every guest, plus a place to connect with other Wiser than Me listeners. I hope you subscribe at wiser than me.substack.com and stick around to see what we have in store. Be right back.

You know, AT&T believes hearing a voice can change everything. It's why people love a good podcast or save voicemails from loved ones, because there's nothing like the comforting sound of a familiar voice. Who do you call when you need to recharge? Maybe it's your mom. Your sister, your best friend from college. AT&T wants everyone to share their voice over the holidays. So send a voice note, leave a voicemail, call some because that conversation is a chance to say something they'll hear forever. Happy holidays from AT&T. Connecting changes everything.

Hey prime members, did you know you can listen to Wiser Than Me ad free on Amazon Music? Download the Amazon Music app today to start listening ad free.

Okay, I'm not gonna talk about food waste this time. Promise. I'm going to talk about food resources. All that uneaten food that's lazing around the landfill tooting out greenhouse gases. It could be put to work enriching our soil or feeding our chickens. It's a valuable resource because it's still food and the easiest and frankly, way coolest way to put all its nutrients to work is with the MILL Food Recycler. Okay, it looks like an art house garbage can. You can just toss your scraps in it like a garbage can. It's definitely not a garbage can. True, I'm a little bit obsessed. I actually even invested in this thing. But I'm not alone. Any mill owner just might corner you at a party and rhapsodize about how it's completely odorless and fully automated and how you can keep filling it for weeks. No joke, but the clincher is that you can depend on it for years. Mill is a serious machine. Think about a dishwasher, not a toaster. It's built by hand in North America and engineered by the guy who did your iPhone. But you kind of have to live with Mill to understand all the love. That's why they offer a risk free trial. Go to mill.com wiser for an exclusive offer.

When it comes to gift giving, it's not just about finding something they'll like. It's about finding something that feels thoughtful, personal and just right. Like it was made for them. At Macy's, they don't just have something for everyone, they have something for your someones. And if you want a little help, Macy's Free personal stylists can help guide you. They are experts on the brands, trends and products that make the best gifts for the people in your life. And they can search across all of Macy's amazing categories and brands to curate the perfect item or combination of items. Say you got a friend who loves cooking. How about a Le Creuset round Dutch oven? Or your Bougie beauty bestie? How about a Hermes lipstick set? And yes, they can even help with husbands with quality brand names and pieces they'll actually wear like Barbour jackets. But don't feel like you need to be left out. Macy's Personal Stylist may just help you find a little something for yourself along the way. And because everyone loves a good deal this time of year, you'll get 20% off your purchase from your first stylist session. So if your gift list is starting to stress you out, book a free styling session online or in store. Tell them who you're shopping for and let Macy's do the heavy lifting. Shop online@macy's.com or download the Macy's app today. When there's a job to be done, the wisest choice you can make is finding the right people with the right skills to make it happen. If you're hiring, Indeed is all you need. Stop struggling to get your job. Post seen on other sites. Give your job the best chance to be seen with Indeed sponsored Jobs. They help you stand out and hire quality candidates who can drive the results you need. Sponsored Jobs Boost your post for quality candidates so you can reach the exact people you want faster and it makes a big difference. According to Indeed data, Sponsored jobs posted directly on indeed are 90% more likely to report a hire than non sponsored jobs because you reach a bigger pool of quality candidates. Plus, with Indeed sponsored Jobs, you only pay for results. No monthly subscription, no long term contracts. Just a boost whenever you need to find quality talent Fast. Join the 1.6 million companies that sponsor their jobs with Indeed. Spend more time interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results. Now with Indeed Sponsored Jobs and listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium status it [e-mail] wiser. Just go to indeed.com wise right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com wiser terms and conditions apply. Hiring do it the Right Way with Indeed.

Hey, wait a minute. What about the the getting pregnant around the time of Fatal Attraction? When you shot the movie, were you pregnant or was it just right after the movie?

[Glenn Close]

No, this is crazy. This is crazy. So we shot the original movie and I remember we ended in December and it wasn't until the following summer that I was told they wanted to reshoot the ending. Ah, I was very lucky I hadn't cut my hair, but I was pregnant during that whole reshoot when I was doing this stuff in the bathtub and getting slammed against the, you know, the Medicine Cabinet by Michael. And it was after that that I that I found out I was pregnant.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, so you didn't know when you were being thrown around the tile bathroom that you were pregnant?

[Glenn Close]

That I was pregnant, yeah. And the stuff in the bathtub and everything.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Wow.

[Glenn Close]

Yeah, it was crazy. It was crazy. The funny thing was, is that when we went to the, to the Oscars, I got nominated for an Oscar for it. And Michael and I were asked to give an award early on and they didn't allow me to go commercial. I was eight months pregnant. So they paid for us to go out in a private plane, not a big one. We had to kind of hop across the country.

But when I came on stage with Michael to give out the award, I was enormously pregnant. And everybody started laughing.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, cassette.

[Glenn Close]

And it was because in the movie she says I'm pregnant and nobody believed her.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That's hilarious. That would have been a very funny joke if you hadn't been pregnant. That would have been genius.

[Glenn Close]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That is so incredible. And it's funny how I guess the press got hold of that fact that you were pregnant and it was a big part of the. I don't know, did you get shit for it or how did that. I mean.

[Glenn Close]

Oh, they wanted to know who the father was. Oh, yeah, I went through some shit. Uh huh. Yeah. Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It's very interesting to watch Fatal Attraction now.

And I have to tell you something. I read somewhere or heard you say in an interview in prepping for our conversation, that you wanted to tell that story from her point of view.

[Glenn Close]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And I gotta tell you something. You gotta tell that story from her point of view. That is such a good idea for a film. I mean, for real. Yeah.

[Glenn Close]

Because she really was a tragic figure.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Tragic, tragic.

[Glenn Close]

She was a totally tragic figure. But because she was out of. Basically out of control because she desperately needed help, she is now considered one of the great villains of the 20th, you know, that era of movies. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I was playing her and I did research with two different psychiatrists, took them the script. They read the script. And I said, my first question was, is the bunny possible boiling money? They said, oh, yeah, yeah. Second one was, why? Why, why would. What would create that? And specifically, when she's spying on the family and they're giving the. The. The father's giving the little girl the bunny.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Glenn Close]

Why does she run into the bushes and throw up?

Now you could say that she was pregnant.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Glenn Close]

And maybe sick from it. But she also could have been abused by her father and made to do things that would have made her gag and throw Up. And that was the woman I was playing who had been abused by her father.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, that was evident. I mean, it was evident to me. Your take on her was so sympathetic and it was so artfully crafted. And, I mean, it's incredible how the movie ends on the tight shot of the family photo.

[Glenn Close]

And Michael Hugs didn't originally end, by that way.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I know. I know it didn't originally. It ended with your character killing herself, listening to Madame Butterfly and he going to jail. Right?

[Glenn Close]

Yeah. But it was so disturbing for American audiences. It's so funny. I played two characters that the audience wanted to get super punished. One of them was Alex Forrest.

It's not enough that she kills herself. No, no, no. She has to be shot, you know, in order to restore order to the family. It's a basic Greek tragedy.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And that's why I'm saying I think this would be, to your point, an amazing story to revisit. Now, let's tell this story now again from her point of view. Anyway, I'm all for it.

[Glenn Close]

Let's do it together.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I would do that with you in a heartbeat. For real.

[Glenn Close]

I think it would be fascinating.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Fascinating.

[Glenn Close]

Sit by. Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Who is the second character that was so hated, in your view?

[Glenn Close]

Madame de Mertheaux in Dangerous Liaisons.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, yes.

[Glenn Close]

Ooh. In the book, which is, next to Dracula, the most terrifying book I've ever read. And it's just a series of letters in the book.

At the end, she has smallpox all over her face. And when that story was first published, which was in the years before the French Revolution, it was banned.

And he was able to publish it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Why was it banned, do you know?

[Glenn Close]

I think it was against the aristocracy.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. Okay.

[Glenn Close]

They didn't kind of come off very well.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, no, they don't.

[Glenn Close]

But so he added this thing where she not only was reviled by society, but nature had also ruined her beauty and her power by giving her a smallpox. You don't see that in the film, but I knew that that was the character that was on the pages of the book. We actually shot a scene of her at the guillotine having her head cut off.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, no way.

[Glenn Close]

Yes. I still have the wig. Like this little kind of thing, like all your hair had been cut off. And Stephen Frears was so scared of. I mean, it was pretty freaky to put your head down in a guillotine. And even they say, oh, no, no, we have. You know, it's not going to go all the way down. It was really freaky.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So your grandmothers were a Big influence in your life. And.

You talk about you mimicked one of your. I guess your father's mother scolded a famous baseball commentator about not writing a thank you note.

[Glenn Close]

Oh, my God, yes. Who was that famous yankee? Phil Rizzuto.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So can you. Is it Phil Rizzuto tell that story? What she did? What happened?

[Glenn Close]

Oh, my God. My grandma would sit in her French. Her little French stuffed chair and watch baseball. She watched the Yankees, and then she watched the Dallas Cowboy, but she was a huge Yankee fan. And she did needlepoint and she needle pointed Phil Rizzuto a pillow. I don't know if it had, you know, P. R. On it or the Yankee logo. I'm not sure what. And somehow she got it to him. I don't know how. And then she never got a thank you note, which for Granny was, you know, yeah, thank you notes, sir. I still carry around, you know, things that I say. I have to write a thank you note. And a year later, I still have the letter. I have to write a thank you note. But she got him on the phone and asked him why he hadn't written her a thank you note. It was hilarious.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Is it her kind of meltdown that you were channeling in? I guess it's reversal of fortune. Is that right?

[Glenn Close]

Yes.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Glenn Close]

Yes. Well, Granny close grew up. She was born in Galveston, Texas, and then after the flood, they moved to Houston. And I heard her and this is when she was older. And I think I was maybe still in college. No, I think I'd started my career. And I was visiting her one weekend and I heard her be really rude to her maid. And I was so angry. And I called her on it, and she had that meltdown in front of me. It was horrifying. So I called my father, who was a doctor. I said, I think Granny's losing it. I just. This thing happened and it was really upsetting. I've never seen anything like that. And he said, take her to sea. He had to doctor a friend in New York Park. So the next day or two days later, I got Granny. And she was, you know, a little delicate after that. I mean, you know, kind of maybe subdued a little bit. And I got her in the car and we were driving down the Merritt Parkway and I start. Look, kept looking over, and she literally was. It was almost like science fiction. She was putting herself together again. So by the time we got to the doctor's office, it was, oh, hello, how are, so lovely to see you again. And it was. He couldn't say anything because he didn't see anything. And I was just there going, I don't believe this.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, my God. When you say she was putting herself together, you were just seeing her sort of mentally get her game together.

[Glenn Close]

Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Going down the west side highway, thinking, oh, anyway, it was. It was extraordinary. It was extraordinary. And she, you know, hello.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

With her arm.

[Glenn Close]

Hello, darling. Hello, darling.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, she charmed the pants off of him.

[Glenn Close]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, you know, it's funny you say that, because I remember my husband's grandmother, who had dementia, actually, and when she was taken to see her doctor, she would immediately start flirting with him, and she would. You know, she was like, 90. And he would say, so tell me, Evelyn, what have you been doing? What have you been up to? And she'd say, well, I've been playing tennis and I ride my bike. And, you know, it was complete bullshit.

Do you draw? Do you. Do you. When you're working on character? I would assume that all of these female characters in your life and your family, there's. It's a treasure trove of.

[Glenn Close]

Yeah, in a way, it is. I mean, Granny Close was that, you know, pounding my thighs like she did. And because you have to do it over and over in a film, my thighs were black and blue by the time we finished. So that was Granny, but Meemai, my mother's mother, Jenny Fields, in my first film. Yeah, when she gets older. Yes, that was Meemai.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Really?

[Glenn Close]

That was me, Mai. Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And what was it about her that you were.

I don't know, channeling or using.

[Glenn Close]

I don't know if I've done it. But Mimai had the great trait of making everybody that she talked to feel like they're the only person in the room she could. Zero. Really. That is fascinating. And then what. So that element of her is what I wanted Jenny Fields to have.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And Jenny Fields for our listeners is, of course, from the World According to Garp. And. And you know who's like that in my life is. My mother is like that almost to a fault in conversation. She can. You know, we're in a cab and she starts talking to the driver about his life, and the next thing you know, we're not getting out of the cab at our stop because she's.

[Glenn Close]

That's. That's what my grandmother would do.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, it's a lovely trait. It's a marvelous trait. And also, by the way, it's a very curious way of living. I mean, in other words, you're using curiosity in your life in a very positive way, because you know, everybody has a story. Everybody has an interesting story.

[Glenn Close]

Just, you know, get off your phone and just ask people questions, find out about them, and you'll have a wonderful time.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I know.

[Glenn Close]

Yeah. It's so, so interesting.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Did you learn about being a grandmother from your grandmothers?

[Glenn Close]

Not really, no.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Hmm.

[Glenn Close]

Let's see. Granny Close. She would drag us to Episcopal church, which was always something we didn't really enjoy that much. And she could be scary. Yeah, I had. I had pigeon toed. I was very. I'm naturally pigeon toed. And so when I was little, I'd go over to Stanford, Connecticut, to this shoe store, and they'd make me these brown lace up shoes with they. They'd make the heel so they're supposed to turn your foot out. It didn't work, but it was Granny saying, turn your feet out, turn your feet out. You know, Then finally, I mean, she was, make up your mind, make up your mind. It's all good stuff, but, yeah, a.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Little scary, A little scary.

[Glenn Close]

And my other grandmother.

They'Re both fascinating women. My grandmother Moore, both my grandmothers married older divorcees who knew each other actually.

So they were younger, very beautiful women. Married older men. My grandfather used to take these black and white little movies, and you could see Mimai dancing the Charleston in the snow, on snowshoes. She was supposed to be. She was just like beautiful and funny and wonderful, but.

She was in her own world. Mimai, she was wonderful, but she was definitely in her own. I mean, it was Meemai that I would, you know, we'd be over there and she'd be playing canasta, you know, with three other women and the clink of their, of their jangly, you know, bracelets, Drinking Dubonnet, smoking.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes, I know. My grandmother was a big drinker and smoker. And, you know, to this day, that smell of, of scotch and cigarettes makes me very calm. I. It's very cozy. No.

We'll be right back with more of my cozy conversation with Glenn Close after this quick break.

You know, AT&T believes hearing a voice can change everything. And if you love podcasts, you get it. The power of hearing someone speak is unmatched. It's why we save those voicemails from our loved ones. They mean something. You know, who do you call when you need a little one on one holiday boost? Maybe it's your best friend who lives across the country or your aunt who always seems to have the exact advice you need to hear. Or how about when you need to get hyped up for something big. Perhaps you call up your work bestie who's known for giving a pep talks. AT&T knows the holiday are the perfect time to do just that. Share your voice. If it's been a while since you called someone who matters, now's the time. Because it's more than just a conversation. It's a chance to say something they'll hear forever. So spread a little love with the call this season. Happy holidays from AT&T. Connecting changes everything. Picture your family's holiday card or ones you've received this holiday season. Is a family dog on it? Naturally, in so many families, pets specifically dogs are such important members and you know they deserve to have the best care possible. Starting with their food. Ollie offers fresh, protein packed meals with real ingredients that dogs crave. They have five tasty recipes, all slow cooked for top nutrition, backed by vet nutritionists and crafted with culinary experts. And the results speak for themselves. Even the pickiest eaters show more excitement during mealtime. The perfectly portioned meals come in mess free packaging complete with a scoop for easy serving and a storage puptainer for any extra. It's a pet owner's dream. People who have tried Ollie say they can't imagine going back to store bought dog food. And why would they? Their dogs are doing better than ever. Your dog's well being starts with their food and that's why Ollie delivers fresh human grade food that your dog will love. Head to ollie.com wiser tell them all about your dog and use code Wiser to get 60% off your welcome kit when you subscribe today. Plus they offer a happiness guarantee on the first box so if you not completely satisfied, you'll get your money back. That's o l l I e.com wiser and enter code wiser to get 60% off your first box. What's better than when a product feels as good as it works? Indulgent upgrades to your daily routine can deliver real results. Osea's Undaria Algae Body Butter is rich and ultra nourishing, leaving your skin feeling soft and smooth. It delivers up to 72 hours of hydration and it's clinically show to visibly improve texture and firmness after four weeks. The winter months can be so unkind to your skin, but this body butter hydrates firms and minimizes crepiness for smooth supple skin all over. And not only that, but because it's from Osea, it's helping support their mission of clean skin and body care products. Osea's Undaria Algae Body butter is ultra rich yet fast absorbing and has the same beloved scent as their Undaria Algae Body Oil, an all natural fragrance with uplifting grapefruit, lime and cypress combined with the sweet notes of Mango Mandarin. Experience Body Care from Osea that actually delivers visible results. And right now we have a special discount just for our listeners. Get 10% off your First Order site wide with Code Wiser at oseamalibu.com that's oseamalliboo.com Code Wiser there is so much to learn in life, and luckily there's a way to learn from people at the top of their craft. With Masterclass you can learn how to apply the principles of improv to your life, courtesy of Amy Poehler. You can learn to design your dream home on a Budget with Joanna Gaines. You can even learn how to negotiate your next raise with lessons from FBI negotiator Chris Voss. With Masterclass, you can learn from the best to become your best. Plans start at $10 a month billed annually, which gives you unlimited to over 200 classes taught by the world's best business leaders, writers, chefs and more. And better yet, you can enjoy Masterclass lessons anytime, anywhere. With Masterclass Audio mode, turn your commute or workout into a classroom, or if you're traveling by plane or train, you can download classes to watch offline. Masterclass always has great offers during the holidays, sometimes up to as much as 50% off. Head over to masterclass.com wiser for the current offer. That's a up to 50% off at masterclass.com wiser masterclass.com wiser.

You talk about your childhood sort of ending when you were 7, because I think it was around then that your parents joined the mra.

[Glenn Close]

Is that correct? Around then, yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And the MRA stands for the Moral Moral Rearmament.

[Glenn Close]

Moral rearmament instead of military rearmament after the war, it's supposed to be moral rearmament in everybody. In this, you're supposed to live by four standards. Absolute honesty, absolute purity, absolute unselfishness and absolute love. And you're supposed to have what they called guidance every morning, which is everybody had a little book, and you're supposed to have guidance from God. So if you're a kid.

You know, I mean, I'm sure the Catholic Church does it. It's all confessional and blah, blah, blah. But you're supposed to live by the four standards and the guidance of God. And what does purity mean, by the way?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

What the hell does purity?

[Glenn Close]

What is absolute purity?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No, I don't know.

[Glenn Close]

Well, for me, it Meant you just. You could. You wasn't supposed to look at yourself in the mirror. You felt guilty if you wanted to be pretty. Oh my God, it was so fucked.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. And I know you were living in Switzerland and I mean, I can only imagine what that must have been like for you. Can you talk about that shift at age 7? Yeah.

[Glenn Close]

Well, we didn't move immediately to Switzerland. What happened is that they met this group and they. I think they were fodder for a group like this because they were in a very unhappy place in their marriage. And they'd gotten married when they were 18. And you know, dad went to the war and came back. He was in medical school, so. And I. I do think that people don't get sucked up by these cults if they are whole people in healthy relationships. I, I just. Yeah, I. I don't believe that would happen. But my parents were.

Fragile that way. But anyway, so the first thing they did was sell the little cottage and they actually moved into. That's when we moved into Hermitage farm, which is just, you know, maybe four miles away, was my other grandparents house. And then they eventually sold that house and gave all the money to moral rearmament and we went living. It used to be a center in Mount Kisco, and that center had been a farm owned by one of Vanderbilt's granddaughters. I think it was a gorgeous piece of property. And there was a big house where uncle Frank, Frank Bookman, who started it, would stay if he was there. All kept, you know, spick and span by spinsters. It was very misogynistic, this whole thing. But we were moved into this cottage, which was a good sized house, and various people would come in and take care of us if our parents were away on missions.

So it was from there.

That we went to Switzerland.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I see.

[Glenn Close]

In 1960 we went to Switzerland.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I see.

[Glenn Close]

In Switzerland there's a huge. It had been a very fancy hotel in the 20s going into the war called Mountain Houses above Montreux on the lake of Geneva. And they made that their world headquarters or one of their headquarters. So those were probably the most destructive years.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But wait a minute. How old were you?

[Glenn Close]

I was in seventh grade.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I see.

[Glenn Close]

When we went over there.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Got it. So you were probably 13?

[Glenn Close]

Yeah, yeah. Because when I came back, I went into 10th grade.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I see.

[Glenn Close]

So we were there for two years.

So Mountain House was vast. Big kitchens, little dining rooms. There was always Frank's dining room. Now Frank's dining room had all the best china, the best crystal, the best flatware, the best Linens, everything was just. And. And I remember this, you know, and I was, what? How old are you when you're in seventh, eighth grade?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I think you're like 13.

[Glenn Close]

To be asked to set the table in Frank's dining room, you know, to fold the napkins.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It was like, oh, God.

[Glenn Close]

I think the worst was for me when we were still living in Greenwich on John street, and my parents were leaving on a mission.

And I was really upset. And I had a little bedroom on the third floor of the. Of the house. And I went running up crying. I didn't want to say goodbye to them.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh.

[Glenn Close]

And then I looked out the window and I saw that the car was there and.

Or the taxi or whatever it was and that they were leaving. And I ran to this little cupboard where I had, like, art material. And I got out a piece of paper and I wrote on this piece of paper. Jesus says you should go. And I wrapped it around pencil and threw it out the window. And I saw my father pick it up and read it and kind of look in and how warped is that now? Just think about that for a minute. I felt guilty for letting my parents basically abandon us.

Which they did over and over and over again. I mean, and yet it was Jesus telling me, yes, it's okay to leave me. I'm seven, but go ahead and go change the world. And we'll be, you know, in the care of some girl who's probably being punished, you know, by having to go take care of someone's kids.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, poor Glenn.

[Glenn Close]

It seems tiny. You know, we weren't beaten. We always had clothes. We always had food. So I've. In a way, it's been very hard to come to terms with it because of that. Because I wasn't sexually or physically abused, but I had. It was terrible emotional and psychological abuse.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Terrible, terrible.

[Glenn Close]

And it still is still with me.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I can see it.

[Glenn Close]

It's absolutely still with me.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And I can feel it.

It's a horror. It's a horror. It's terrible.

[Glenn Close]

The funny thing is, it's not funny, but my dad was sent away to school.

To a boarding school in England. His dad was directed the. The American Hospital in Paris. So they basically. They were in Paris, but he was sent when he was 7 years old.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, that was the norm.

[Glenn Close]

And so that. And my dad, apparently he was a twin. He had a twin brother. And it was my dad who would cling to the car, have to be pulled off, you know, And I think he was. He had been abused and abandoned. I mean, why how can you not feel abandoned when that happens and, you know, never to be visited?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So we're talking about generational trauma that carries. That is.

[Glenn Close]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So he.

[Glenn Close]

They did that to their children.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right. And so can we talk about forgiveness? Because I know it's something you've worked on, I'm sure.

How to get there? How do you get there? Do you get there?

[Glenn Close]

Well, I had this a little bit of a.

Revelation when I had my new. When Annie was little. Yes, I remember exactly when it was. Came back from Dangerous Liaisons. My parents lived in Wyoming, and they had built a house down from their little house that where my first. My grandmother Moore lived and died. And then my grandmother close, who was not someone who ever thought she'd end her days in Big Piney, Wyoming, but she was there, and she, you know, she had been somebody to contend with.

But my dad was taking care of her, and I went down to visit her, and she was almost in the fetal position. You know, I don't know how long after that visit she died, but she was there breathing in her bed, asleep. And I stood over her with my child. And I had this thought that the burden of forgiveness is always with the child.

It's whether the child will be able to forgive.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, my God, that makes me cry.

[Glenn Close]

Because the person who's been wronged is the one who needs to forgive. And that parents will always make mistakes, some bigger than others. But I think that is where.

That'S the burden of forgiveness. And you either.

I asked my mom to come with me to.

Some, you know, when I was seeing a shrink, because I wanted to ask her some questions with a shrink there who could kind of, you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Know, help facilitate it, moderate it.

[Glenn Close]

And she did. Did. And.

I, I really, I, I, I learned about some things.

You know, what it was like when dad came back from the war and blah, blah, blah, and I started to really understand them, and.

I, I forgave them. I had, I had another incident with my dad. He was an extraordinary man, but he had no emotional vocabulary as a father. And I, I spent three days writing this letter, finally telling him what I thought of him as a father. And it was so strong.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh.

[Glenn Close]

That I read it to my siblings and to my mother before I sat. Sent it to dad because I wanted them to know. And the thing that it did for me was that I was immune to his power over me in that way. I had made myself immune.

He went to see a shrink that he knew for about three sessions, and.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Then he got cured. Cured.

[Glenn Close]

And he got cured.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Listen, you joined this group, Up With People.

[Glenn Close]

It was an offshoot of mra.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay, so it was like a Christian singing group. A little bit. Right, A little. Very popular, by the way. Cause I remember from when I was little. I don't know how I saw it, but I did. And the Up With People song, I vaguely remember. Oh, and I have to tell you something. So my husband Brad grew up in Santa Barbara, California. His dad was an Episcopal minister here in California. And the Up With People folks used to come and they would stay at the rectory while they performed at the Granada Theater. Were you touring with them? Did you ever perform at the Granada Theater?

[Glenn Close]

What year was that, do you know?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, I'm gonna say it was in.

[Glenn Close]

Cause I toured with them from 19. 1965 to 1970. For five years.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, it would have been, it would have been during that time. You don't have any member. I mean, it's possible. I'm telling you right now, Glenn, it is possible that you stayed at Brad's childhood home with upright people.

[Glenn Close]

Well, we always stayed with families.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, I guarantee, I guarantee it. How bizarre would that be?

[Glenn Close]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Anyway. God, I know, so bizarre.

[Glenn Close]

Girls bus, boys bus. You know, you weren't supposed to do anything. And of course, because I hadn't ever done anything kiss, Lord knows, hadn't had sex. I'm sure kids were doing it just left, right and center.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But you, no, but you were sticking to the absolute.

[Glenn Close]

I didn't know anything else.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Uh huh, Right.

[Glenn Close]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

All of this baggage. Did it make it scary then to become a mom? Or did you get more clarity when you became a mom? Or all of the above, I suppose.

[Glenn Close]

I don't think I dragged a lot of it into my experience of being a mother. I had other things to contend with.

I'm very blessed to have, I think, an extraordinary human being for daughter.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, how wonderful.

[Glenn Close]

She is so rooted. I'm just like, boy, you don't. I always will be.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You don't seem. Bleh. You don't seem like that to me. You don't. I mean, you've been through a lot and you haven't, it seems to me, anyway, you have an understanding of where you've been. You're probably still peeling back layers on.

[Glenn Close]

Her more and more. Oh yeah, I think. More and more. More and more. But just, you know, I've been married three times.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Glenn Close]

And the, the. I shouldn't have married.

Any of them, but I had an empty toolbox.

And so I've had to try to fill that toolbox as far as human relations and. And certainly relationships in a marriage with nothing really as a model. So I've made a lot of mistakes, and I think that. That in my generation and my family, we have a lot of divorces, but our kids, I think, knock on wood. But it looks like they have found, literally, life partners. And I think that's one of the. The things that maybe what we went through, they're saying, you know, they've seen it and they know that they can do something else, you know, so that makes me. That makes me happy.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

As well. It should. As well. It should, yeah.

[Glenn Close]

But I think it's. I think it's sad that I was so unknowing. I mean, so unknowing. So, you know. Well, yeah, always chose the wrong.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, that is sad. But this is not a sad story. You're telling this story, you know, it's triumphant.

[Glenn Close]

No. And I feel so alive. But I do think that one of the great gifts, possible gifts in life is to have a life partner.

It's tricky, of course, but, you know.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, it can be tricky, for sure. But.

Let'S talk a little bit more about your career. It's just so remarkable. I can't get over how long it's been. And it's so varied. And I know that you've said that earlier in your career you were driven by a real need to prove yourself. Of course, I totally understand that drive. But at this point, do you still feel that way?

[Glenn Close]

No, I don't feel I need to prove myself. If anything, I still want to, I think, satisfy my creative urge.

I mean, this movie that I just finished.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, right. It's a Hunger Games prequel, right?

[Glenn Close]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Glenn Close]

I play a character called Drusilla Sickle. And we had five distinct looks. And the collaboration that went into what those looks were gonna be was just so much fun, you know? It was just so much fun. And this.

Like, nothing I've ever done before because of the nature of who this character is and what she looks like.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, tell me about that.

[Glenn Close]

So I started thinking about that this past summer, and there are certain characters that I've played that I've wanted to change my face in very subtle ways because I get distracted by it. I've lived in this space for a long time.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Glenn Close]

And it helps me find a character if I could just make little subtle changes. Albert Nobbs is one, and Mamaw in Hillbilly Elegy is one.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And also summer book.

[Glenn Close]

Yep, Summer book. The summer book. Absolutely. Yeah. So Drusilla, because She's so outrageous and written as outrageous. So I knew that I wanted a certain shape of my mouth. I love teeth. Started working with Matthew Mungle, who's retired, but he's kind of a buddy, you know, one of the great FX artists.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Glenn Close]

And so I got an idea about it. I start by stuffing Kleenex or rolling it up and putting it under my lip and getting certain shapes.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But how did you do the stretching sideways? Is that a post production situation or is it. No, no, no, no. How did they taped it?

[Glenn Close]

It was my skin. In fact, the more we stretched, the wider my mouth got. So I thought I should have had a facelift in my contrast.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Wow. Wow.

[Glenn Close]

No, it was extraordinary. What it.

And then I wanted like a little piggy nose. And that's a technique that I've learned that I actually did for the first time with Matthew.

But now it's much easier. That's a question of tape. And then you put a prosthetic over it. And then, you know, stretching your eyes up and stretching this up.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, you're stretching the skin over here, your cheeks up and sort of pulling your lip up.

[Glenn Close]

God, I just. I did not look like myself. It was so fabulous. I'll show you a picture. Cuz they can't see it. I'll sneak you a picture.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, sneak me a picture. I want to see.

No way.

[Glenn Close]

Yeah, that's me.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No way. Okay, so I'm looking at this picture of Glenn, which I can't share with people, but. But it is. You are transformed.

[Glenn Close]

Yeah. And I'll show you another one.

[Judith Bowles]

No.

[Glenn Close]

Oh, my God. No.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It's terrifying. You look terrifying. It is so scary. We are in for a treat, you guys. Oh, my God, the nose is incredible.

[Glenn Close]

Oh, I'm excited.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I know.

[Glenn Close]

Yeah, it's so much fun. You see? It's just so much fun in the.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

This is all on. Glenn is sharing pictures on her phone listeners. We are.

[Glenn Close]

And you can't see it. You have to wait.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You have to wait. But the wait is gonna be worth. Kind of. Is a. I'm looking at a drag show slightly here too. I mean, it's wild.

[Glenn Close]

Well, I think a lot of my career is about populating gay Halloween parades.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

You are unrecognizable. You're unrecognizable.

[Glenn Close]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay, one more break and then we're back with the incredible Glenn Close.

You've probably noticed it's been a rough year for, well, everything good in the world. Funding cuts have hit, international aid programs are vanishing. Organizations are closing options have been stripped from women who had few to start with. But here's a little good news. The lights are still on at msi. Reproductive Choices MSI provides contraception, safe abortion and reproductive health care to women and girls around the world, often in places where no one else goes. MSI planned ahead and reduced reliance on US Government funding after Trump's first election. It was a very smart move, but they still lost $20 million in aid. The reason? They're able to keep going? People like you, people who believe in women choice and equality. Because of donors, millions of women still have access to care and to hope. So let's keep that going. To give Text the word wiser to 511-511, text wiser to 511.

Or visit MSI United States.org that's M as in modern S as in safe I as in informed MSI United States.org for $65 you can give 10 women contraception for a year. Text WISER to 511-511 to give. Together we can keep the lights and the choices. On msiunitedstates.org, text WISER to 511511 and donate by the end of this year to msiunitedstates.org today. Tax fees may apply. The holidays only come once a year, so you want to be sure your gifts last at least that long. But what if they could last for years and be staples that people cherish time and time again? Fortunately, that's all they sell. At Quince, everything is premium quality at a price that actually makes sense. At Quince, the crafts shows in every detail, the stitching, the fit, the drape everything is both high quality and timeless and made to wear on repeat. Plus, Quince works directly with trusted factories, which maintain only high standards for both craftsmanship and ethical practices. And by cutting out the middlemen and the associated markups, Quince is able to pass those savings on straight to you. Their stunning 100% mulberry silk pillowcases are really a standout, as are their chic Italian leather wallets and bags and all their cozy scarves. There are so many beautiful options, and all at affordable prices. Find gifts so good you'll want to keep them with quince. Go to quince.com wiser for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com wiser to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com wiser.

Want to know a piece of wisdom that never gets old? Sometimes the simplest answer is also the best one. When it comes to holiday gifting, that certainly holds true, especially when you're giving Aura Frames. Not only do they make the best digital picture frame out there, it couldn't be easier to set up and give. Your memories are ready to be shared and enjoyed right out of the box. Plus, Aura Frames have a luxe look and crystal clear displays. With Aura Frames, you get unlimited free photos and video. Just download the Aura app and connect to WI Fi. You can preload photos before it ships, so it's all ready to go, keeping it simple for parents or grandparents. And you can keep adding from anywhere, anytime. You can also personalize your gift and add a message before it arrives. Speaking of, every frame comes packaged in a premium gift box with no price tag. Don't wait. Win the holidays now with Aura Frames for a limited time. Save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com to get $35 off or his bestselling Carver Mat frames named number one by Wirecutter by using promo code Wiser at checkout. That's a U R A frames.com promo code wiser. This deal is exclusive to listeners and frames sell out fast, so order yours now to get it in time for the holidays. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply.

I want to touch, of course, on your work with mental health and in 2015 you contributed to the book that your sister wrote about her struggle with mental health, mental illness in a book called Resilience.

And.

How. I wonder. I know that you cared for your sister.

At a particular time of her suffering and how did that experience sort of.

Oh God. Shape the way you live now today compared to before? I know that's a heavy question and I apologize for throwing it your way, but I think it's sort of an important one to talk about, if you don't mind.

[Glenn Close]

I think it's incredibly important to talk about about.

So Jesse came up to me on a summer day. She was just leaving my parents house in Wyoming and she said, I need your help. I can't stop thinking about killing myself.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh.

[Glenn Close]

And that's the first. It was like what?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

This was complete news to you?

[Glenn Close]

Complete news to. To me.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Did you know she was struggling at all? This is your sister Jessie. No. Okay.

[Glenn Close]

My younger sister Jessie. And she was always considered the wild one.

She really fell through the cracks of her family.

And she writes about it in the most extraordinary way. So honest in that book. And she Writes about her, her journey with bipolar disorder. She wasn't diagnosed until she was 51.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Come on. To have to live with that.

[Glenn Close]

My father was a doctor, you know, and we came from a culture, Greenwich, Connecticut, where nobody. If you went to a shrink, you certainly didn't talk about it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I see.

[Glenn Close]

And most people didn't go to a shrink. And little did we know that my grandmother's brother.

He lived with schizophrenia and was violent and put in the mental hospital numerous times. Another half brother of my mother's died by suicide. So depression all through the family. So when Jesse came up, to me, it was such an act of courage or probably desperation. Probably a little bit of both, but probably more desperation.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Glenn Close]

And we were able to help her, my mom and I. And she went to.

McLean Hospital outside of Boston. Her son had been diagnosed there. He had had a psychotic break. And nobody. I mean, what. I mean, what is that? You know, what's going. She didn't know what was happening. Nobody. And even though. And I think back, I knew he was there. He stayed there for two years, and it saved his life. Life. But he didn't really know what it was. I went to visit him, and it was kind of, you know, uncomfortable.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, God.

[Glenn Close]

And because we live in a society that wants to put everything under the rug, behind the curtain, don't talk about it. The neighbors might hear.

So when Jesse and. And both of them came out, they. They. They told me that the stigma around mental illness is just as bad as the illnesses themselves. So while people are trying to recover, trying to understand how to deal with this chronic illness, they also have to deal with the fear of stigma.

And for example, my nephew, he was kind of the. The glorious leader of the pack. He had his psychotic break. Nobody came back. None of his friends came back, which is astounding to me, because of fear, because of lack of understanding, you know, of what people are actually dealing with. Anyway, so we decided to try to do something about it. And they started. They went on National Television, 2010, talking about. About the illnesses that they were living with. I mean, it was so brave.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So brave.

[Glenn Close]

Oh, I know. You just have to start talking about it because we're human beings. It is part of being human.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I know. And talk about the work you do with your organization.

[Glenn Close]

So Bring Change to Mind went into the schools and have developed now these clubs where kids go. And it's peer to peer. You know, of course they have an advisor, but it's peer to peer kids talking about what they're dealing with. The kids are Amazing. They just blew me away. But the. The. I mean, the simple thing is just start talking about it. If you see somebody acting, you know, not like themselves in a consistent way, go up and say if they're okay. If they say they are and you don't believe it, ask them again. And that's what these kids learn are these ways to help. Help yourself and to help somebody next to you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So it's a gift that you've been able to take this with your family, this suffering, which kind of. It sounds like, to a certain extent, prevalent, and morph it and use it in ways that are so positive. So good on you and good on Jeff and good on her son Kalyn. Yes.

[Glenn Close]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay. I've taken up so much of your time, but this has been.

Delightful. All caps.

[Glenn Close]

Delightful.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

We always end on a couple of, like, really quick questions.

Let's see. Is there something you'd go back and tell yourself at 21?

[Glenn Close]

Oh, my God, I was such a dork. You'd say, you're such a dork right now. I say, such a dork. Pull yourself together. Oh, God. 21. I was still with up with people. I went to college when I was 22. I was a freshman when I was 22.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh.

[Glenn Close]

So in a way.

I would say what I said to myself back then is, get out of it.

Get an education.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right. That's hilarious.

Is there something that you would go back and say yes to?

[Glenn Close]

Oh.

After we did the Natural.

Robert Redford invited me to a very romantic restaurant where we had dinner together. And I was too clueless.

And.

Unknowing and unsure to even.

Consider.

That I might have dated him.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, my God.

[Glenn Close]

Yeah. Yeah.

But he. He found Billy. But. Yeah. And it's just because I. I didn't.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You didn't know?

[Glenn Close]

I didn't know. Didn't get it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I'm just gonna let that sit there. That's incredible.

But lucky you. You got to work with him, you lucky duck.

[Glenn Close]

Yeah, but how dorky was that?

Oh, my God.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And I'm gonna lastly ask you this. Is there something that you wanna tell me about aging that I should know?

[Glenn Close]

Try to fall in love with your skin. Oh. I took a picture of my. Of the skin on my arm, which is kind of shocking because I love trees, and I love the bark on trees, and I wanted to find a tree bark that looked like the skin of my arm, and it would make me feel like I belong.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, Glenn.

Oh.

[Glenn Close]

Because I think that's what's happening.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, my God. I love that.

That Makes me cry. I love it. Oh, thank you.

[Glenn Close]

Thank you, my dear. Lovely to talk to you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Lovely to talk to you. It's been heaven.

Really appreciate it. Be well in Berlin. Take good care of yourself.

[Glenn Close]

I will. You too.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, what a fantastic woman. God, I love her. Okay, let's call my mom. I can't wait to hear what she has to say about our conversation. Conversation. Let's get her on the zoom.

Hi, mommy.

[Judith Bowles]

Hi, love.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Look at you, all pretty with your scarf and your lipstick.

[Judith Bowles]

Oh, yes. Yeah, I put the scarf on this morning because one scarf can keep me warm all day.

[Glenn Close]

Right.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Actually, it's totally true.

[Judith Bowles]

Yeah, it's just amazing. And I put on lipstick just for you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, that's so nice. Too bad we're not videotaping.

[Judith Bowles]

Well, that's okay. I want to impress you.

I worked at that.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So, mother, I talked to Glenn Close today, if you can even believe what I'm telling you.

[Judith Bowles]

That is incredible. I mean, Glenn Close is just. I mean, is she real? I mean, she is.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

She's real. She is so real.

[Judith Bowles]

Different faces that you know her from. And she's so intense in all of the phases. Everything is just like, oh, that's got to be. She's got to be that.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I mean, it's extraordinary how she's played such a wide swath of characters. But this is the thing about Clyn. She's saying there are a lot of women in her family that she. I'm not gonna say mimics, but she draws from to play a whole host of her characters. And she had a grandmother on her dad's side who was a real character with a massive temper. And Glenn tapped into playing her grandma a lot. Specifically in Reversal of Fortune, she has a scene in which she's going absolutely bananas, having a tantrum. And she said she was just doing her grandmother.

[Judith Bowles]

Oh, that's so interesting.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, isn't that funny? So her grandparents had a big part in her life. Was your grandmother, by the way.

Bessie, did she have a temper? I don't remember you ever saying she did.

[Judith Bowles]

No, I don't. The only time I saw her get angry was really at the end of her life when she was in a nursing home.

[Glenn Close]

It was. I was awful.

[Judith Bowles]

One of those old fashioned nursing homes.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, no.

[Judith Bowles]

So terrible. And it was in Ohio. But anyway, they couldn't. They had no other place to put her. And so she. She said that people were coming in and stealing things from her room because they had to leave their room open at night to a certain extent or something. And so My mother and Myrna said, oh, no, they're not doing that, Mother. They're not doing that. And she looked at them and she said, you listen to me, girly girls.

[Glenn Close]

Know what I'm saying?

[Judith Bowles]

And I've been robbed. And she was just completely. I never, ever saw her in her life be like that. But at that time, she really let it rip.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Wow.

[Judith Bowles]

So that was it. So don't tell her what was happening in her life.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Did your mom. My grandma Dee Dee, did she have a bad temper?

[Judith Bowles]

I wouldn't exactly call it a temper, but she could get mad, just mad. And when she was mad, she could say mean things. I think my mother grew up one of five girls, and Myrna, her older sister, was sort of their babysitter. Babysitter, right. And that's a bad thing to have happen because. No, nobody likes the. The oldest one that's taken care of. And it's. It's never a good. A good scheme. And, oh, my God, to Myrna, her sister, she was terrible. She. They just squabbled all the time and so different. And Myrna was very sort of scientific and spiritual. And my mother just. Just made fun of her all the time.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Is that she just.

[Judith Bowles]

Oh, yeah, made terrible fun of her, including. She wore those cotton stockings, you know, this sort of orange cotton stockings.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, I remember those. Myrna wearing those.

[Judith Bowles]

Mother used to make fun of them. She'd say, myrna, the stockings are so terrible. Why do you wear them? And she hurt Myrna's feelings, and Myrna always took it right, but there was no theory allowed in my house. But Glenn Close. What's her favorite part? Does she have a favorite thing that she did, or does she.

[Glenn Close]

She.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, she's played.

She loved being in Sunset Boulevard, which, you know, she did that on stage, but she's a workhorse. She is just going from one project to the next. And she's making this movie that's coming up, and she plays a major character in it, and she was showing pictures on her phone to me over the zoom of her character, which I'm sure for the audience was very frustrating because. Because I was going, oh, my God. Oh, my God. Cause she has transformed her face. That's the thing I wanted to tell you that's so incredible about something. When she's thinking about a character, she thinks. You know, in my mind, when I'm thinking about a character, I think about it sort of emotionally. I don't know if I've ever told you this, but when I was playing Selina Meyer, whenever Selena would get sort of. Sort of flummoxed or. Or thrown off, and she would kind of stammer. She went, well, no, it just. It was like that. I'm doing you. Did you know that?

Smooth smoking me.

[Judith Bowles]

Smooth looking me. Are you kidding me?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No.

[Judith Bowles]

That I think I'm the coolest thing in the block.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You are, Mommy. Unless you get flustered.

[Judith Bowles]

Unless I get flustered more often than not. And so now blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Exactly. But you're not a. Like Selena. Mar is a horrible person. That I can tell you. I did not channel you for that one.

[Judith Bowles]

I. I sort of understood her.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. Maybe she was a little familiar.

Oh, well, anyway. Okay, Mom. Well, thank you so much for being available to chat about the wonderful Glenn Close.

[Judith Bowles]

Oh, well, I loved our chat. I love all of our chats. And this one was particularly chatty.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes, it was. Okay. I love you so much.

[Judith Bowles]

Love you so much, honey. And thank you for calling. And be in touch.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay, love you. Bye.

[Judith Bowles]

So long.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

There's more Wiser Than Me with Lemonada Premium, you can now listen to every episode ad free. Plus subscribers also get access to exclusive bonus interview excerpts from each guest. Just tap that subscribe button on Apple podcasts. Head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. That's Lemonade.

Make sure you're following Wiser Than Me on social media. We're on Instagram and TikTok at Wiser Than Me and we're on Facebook at Wiser Than Me podcast. We're also on substack at wiser than me.substack.com wiser than me is a production of Lemonada Media, created and hosted by me, Julia Louis Dreyfus. The show is produced by Chrissy Pease and Oja Lopez. Brad hall is a consulting program producer, Rachel Neal is consulting senior editor, and our SVP of weekly content and production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Paula Kaplan, Stephanie Whittles, Wax, Jessica Cordova, Kramer, and me. This episode was mixed by Johnny Vince Evans and Ivan Koraev, with engineering help from James Sparber. And our music was written by Henry hall, who you can also find on spot or wherever you listen to your music. Special thanks to Will Schlegel and of course, my mother, Judith Bowles. Follow Wiser Than Me wherever you get your podcasts. And if there's an old lady in your life, listen up.