Julia Gets Wise with Jean Smart

Summary

Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus

Season 4, Episode 1: Julia Gets Wise with Jean Smart
Release Date: May 6, 2026
Guest: Jean Smart
Host: Julia Louis-Dreyfus

---

Episode Overview

In the Season 4 premiere of "Wiser Than Me," Julia Louis-Dreyfus sits down for a deeply personal, funny, and wise conversation with Emmy- and Tony-winning actress Jean Smart. The episode delves into themes of aging, time, creativity, family, resilience, and reinvention. Jean shares her experiences navigating Hollywood as an older woman, the joys and challenges of motherhood (including adopting in her late fifties), personal health battles, grief, and her unexpected return to dating. The candid talk highlights Jean’s remarkable life story, her humor, and her hard-won wisdom.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Passage of Time & Feeling Your Age

• Julia opens with musings on the fleeting nature of time, reflecting on her own recent birthday and her experience of being recognized (or not) from "Seinfeld" (00:06).
• Jean (on feeling her age):
  “It depends on the day. This morning I felt 99. Right now I feel about 74. Tonight I’ll feel, you know, late 50s. I’m going to see my son’s opening night of the High School Musical. He’s the male lead.” (06:51)
• Both discuss how time speeds up as they grow older and the surreal experience of seeing decades-old pictures that feel recent.

Jean's Career Renaissance & Defying Industry Ageism

• Jean reflects on still receiving great roles well into her 70s:
  “I’m continually amazed that I keep getting offered these wonderful roles. I’m eternally grateful. I can’t really entirely explain it because I’m supposed to be, you know, moving to the back of the first line at this point.” (07:33)
• Julia praises Jean’s radical, age-defying work as Deborah Vance in "Hacks," and they discuss the rarity and value of older women leading in comedy and drama.

Memorable Work & Stories from the Set

• The two reminisce about Jean’s appearance on “Veep” and Julia’s film “Enough Said” with James Gandolfini, swapping notes on working with him and director Nicole Holofcener (08:17–10:37).
• Jean playfully shares: “I had a little crush on him.” (08:51)

Family Lineage and Witchy Ancestors

• Julia brings up Jean's remarkable revelation on "Who Do You Think You Are?"—that she’s a direct descendant of Dorcas Hoar, accused in the Salem witch trials (11:05–15:59).
  • Jean recounts the uncanny events leading her to learn of her ancestor’s “elf lock” (a white, matted dreadlock supposedly tied to witchcraft) and her near-execution:
    “She ended up not being hanged. She missed being hanged by a day.” (11:44–12:53)
  • Jean: “It’s like she was up there going, ‘Tell my story. Tell my story. Tell my story.’”

Shyness, Extroversion, and Family Roles

• Julia asks if Jean considered herself shy growing up; Jean describes herself as alternately private and clownish, and shares an anecdote about therapy and privacy (16:41–17:43).
• Jean attributes much of her neighborhood childhood theatrics to her organizing older sister (18:07–18:26).

---

Acting Process & Character Creation

Inner Voices and Roles

• Jean shares her intuitive acting process (31:02):
  “I really hear the voice in my head...I knew this woman like that. I knew exactly who she was.”
• On character creation, both discuss the transformative power of costumes and wigs, and name their favorite collaborators like Kathleen Felix Hager (32:23–35:08).
• Jean reveals that she and the crew name all her wigs on "Hacks," with Camille being her mainstay in Season 1 (35:31–35:48).

Comedy vs. Standup Acting

• On playing a stand-up comic versus acting in comedy (36:27):
  “My biggest concern was that other real comics wouldn’t buy me as a comic, but they seem to have given me...” (36:27)
• Jean observes that her character Deborah is most relaxed onstage, more so than in her real life:
  “When I think about the scenes where I’m doing stand up, she’s so relaxed and the rest of her life she’s a little bit tense, you know.” (37:11–37:32)

---

Personal Life: Love, Family, Loss & Growth

Meeting and Marrying Her Husband

• Jean met her late husband, Richard Gilliland, on "Designing Women" before the show even aired (44:33).
• She vividly recalls their instant attraction and early flirtations, laced with her signature self-deprecating humor:
  “I invited him into my trailer a couple times to help me with crossword puzzles and stuff like that.” (45:24–45:40)

Balancing Motherhood and Career

• Jean speaks about being pregnant while filming "Designing Women" and how the production wrote her pregnancy into the show (46:31).
• Both Jean and Julia discuss the challenges of hiding pregnancies on set, including anecdotes about creative wardrobe choices and writing changes (47:08–48:31).

Managing Type 1 Diabetes During Pregnancy

• Jean describes her high-risk, tightly controlled pregnancy as a type 1 diabetic:
  “I had to become like the poster child for pregnant diabetics. And [my doctor] became like my hero. She held my hand through that pregnancy. I was on the phone with her every single solitary day.” (51:19–51:33)
• She emphasizes the laborious regimen—testing blood sugar 12 times a day, managing diets, insulin, and exercise (52:00–54:01).
• Jean shares how advances like arm monitors and phone apps have replaced painful, frequent finger pricks (54:22–54:48).

Adopting a Child at 57

• Jean recounts the years-long process of deciding to adopt with her husband, including the overwhelming paperwork and their decision’s emotional impact on their older son (55:55–57:34).
• On meeting her adopted son in China:
  “It was incredible to me, having had a biological child and having an adopted child, that you don’t feel any different ... when they put that baby in your arms, it’s like ... the feeling is just so, so overwhelming.” (57:39)

---

Grief, Health Crises & Resilience

Losing Her Husband & Optimism

• Jean speaks candidly about the devastation of losing Richard suddenly after 30+ years, the challenge of processing not just her own grief but her sons’:
  “That kind of exploded that feeling [optimism], and I want to get that feeling back. Because then you realize terrible things can happen just like that, on a dime, and I don’t want to go there.” (59:33–60:05)
• What helps her regain optimism:
  “Watching my kids overcome all that and be happy and, you know, thriving, that’s probably what helps the most.” (60:17)

Facing Her Own Medical Scares

• Less than two years after Richard’s death, Jean needed major heart surgery:
  “I found out out of the blue that I had to have heart surgery and I had to tell my kids. It was like, no ... I didn’t take good enough care of myself.” (63:02)
• Julia acknowledges Jean’s strength in modeling perseverance and resilience for her children through these times (64:17–64:41).

---

Reinvention, Dating & What’s Next

On Dating Again in Her 70s

• Jean describes the awkwardness and anxiety of dating after decades:
  “Going on a date, basically for the first time in ... 35 years is insanely demoralizing.” (66:39)
• She recounts meeting her new boyfriend at Caroline Rhea’s party and the nerves of their first date:
  “Could you be more boring? Could you be less interesting?” (67:03–68:09)
• Reveals he’s several years younger—67 to her 74 (68:51).

Parenting and Letting Go

• Jean’s youngest son is graduating high school and going to college—another huge life shift (69:50).
• “Not having him under my roof every night is going to be inconceivable.” (69:56)

The End of "Hacks"

• Season 5 is the final season of "Hacks," leading to more transition and reflection:
  “That’s gonna be bizarre ... but it doesn’t feel the same [as leaving Designing Women].” (70:35–71:24)
• The conversation shifts to the unique bonds with crew from long-running, intensive shows.

---

Wisdom, Aging, and Advice

Advice to Her Younger Self

• “A lot of the things that you think are absolutes are anything but. And your life is going to go through so many changes, so many stages. People are going to come into your life and leave your life for various reasons. There’s a lot more gray area in life than maybe you think or realize.” (74:25)
• She wishes she’d been less focused on pleasing everyone:
  “Don’t worry so much about pleasing everybody, because I’ve done that my whole life.” (76:36–76:48)
• Julia adds: “To have that community ... it’s like a life preserver in the middle of an ocean. It really is.” (77:31)

Reflections on Aging

• Jean’s advice:
  “Every bit of your health that you feel good about ... just don’t take it for granted. Don’t take anything for granted ... Youth is wasted on the young, boy I’ll say. Because you don’t ever think you’re going to have aches and pains ... then all of a sudden, you go, oh, shit, it’s here. What the hell?” (77:58–78:41)
• On looking back at old photos:
  “I look at pictures of myself when I was younger, and I used to fret so much about this or that, and I look at myself and I’m like, oh my God, I look fantastic ... and I’m sure in 10 years, I’ll kill to look like I do now. That’s what you have to remember.” (78:56–79:05)

---

Memorable Quotes

• Jean Smart:
  • “I want to get that optimistic feeling back.” (60:05)
  • “It’s not strength if you don’t have any choice. You just keep putting one foot in front of the other.” (62:02)
• Julia Louis-Dreyfus:
  • "To have that community ... it’s like a life preserver in the middle of an ocean." (77:31)
• Jean Smart:
  • “Youth is wasted on the young, boy I’ll say ... then all of a sudden, you go, oh, shit, it’s here. What the hell?” (77:58–78:41)

---

Segment Timestamps

• 00:06 — Julia’s musings on aging and time, opening the show
• 06:36 — Jean’s real age and how she feels now
• 11:05–15:59 — Discovering her ancestor, Dorcas Hoar, the Salem witch trials and genealogy stories
• 31:02 — Acting process, finding a character’s voice
• 36:27–38:44 — Difference between acting in comedy and as a stand-up
• 44:33–47:00 — Meeting her husband, pregnancy on Designing Women
• 48:47–55:49 — Diabetes challenges, managing health, and performing
• 55:55–58:39 — Adopting her son at 57, parenting stories
• 59:33–64:41 — Grief, resilience, and family after loss
• 66:37–69:36 — Re-entering the world of dating; growing through change
• 74:25–79:05 — Jean’s advice for her younger (and older) self; perspectives on aging

---

Tone & Takeaways

The episode is breezy, candid, thoughtful, and full of sharp wit and bittersweet wisdom. Both Jean and Julia bring deeply personal experiences to the table, emphasizing what it means to endure, adapt, love, and keep laughing through the changes and losses that come with age. Jean’s humility, honesty, and humor shine, embodying exactly why she is, as Julia says, “very much wiser than me.”

---

For listeners new to Jean Smart or the podcast, this conversation offers a treasure trove of life lessons, laughter, and the comforting reminder that old(er) women really do have the goods. All hail old women!

Transcript

[Jean Smart]

Lemonade.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I just had a birthday a little while ago, which seems to happen almost every year, and it got me thinking about time. You know how they say time flies when you're having fun? Which is true. I mean, it really does. But time also flies when you're getting old. I was in line for coffee at the airport, and this was just yesterday. And the woman behind the counter looks at me and says, seinfeld, right? And I nod yes. And then she turns to the barista next to her and says, she's from Seinfeld. And the barista says, before my time. And I thought, no, no silent movies. That's before my time. I mean, come on, man. My time is now. Isn't it? Isn't it? I mean, there's some social media thing about the 1990s going around. I don't know if you've seen it. And my publicist said to post something from the 90s because everybody's doing it. So I asked my assistant to. Okay, hang on. I sound. Honestly, I sound like a complete Hollywood asshole. I just said my publicist and my assistant in the same sentence. They are actual people. Lindsey Krug is my publicist and one of my favorite friends ever. And Will Schlegel is my lovely and very kind assistant. But back to thinking about time. So Lindsay said, hop on this trend and post something. And I was incredibly busy, so I asked Will if he could do it, and he posted this little montage of me from the 90s. You know, Seinfeld shows and awards stuff and, you know, life in general. And as always, he did a great job. But when I saw it, I thought, whoa, that period of my life feels like last month. I mean, it feels so familiar. So now it doesn't feel old timey at all. But these photos are from like 30 years ago. 30 years ago or more even. How is this possible? 30 years. Time is just flying. I mean, it is flying. I have nothing profound to say about this. Just nothing. I mean, I know it's obvious, but I really feel it. So look, I have an equation for you. If Your mom was 30 years old when you were born, then when she was 40, you were 10. And that means that you were 25% of her age. But when she's 60 years old, you'll be 30, and that's 50% of her age. So you'll be 25% closer to her age than you were when you were 10. And from that day on, you'll keep getting closer in age. And when she turns 100, you'll be 70% of her age. You're catching up. I mean, you are kind of aging faster and faster as you get older. Life really is flying by, in fact. So we better grab as much of it as we can. You know, the good, the bad, the terrifying, the thrilling, all of it. That's what the women on this podcast keep reminding me. How fantastic then, to talk to someone today who is grabbing more life right now than ever, maybe even 100% of it. The unstoppable Jean Smart. I'm Julia Louis Dreyfus, and this is Wiser Than Me, the podcast where I get schooled by women who are wiser than me. Can you believe that Hacks is in its fifth and final season? I mean, like I just said, time really does fly when you're having fun. And if you're watching Jean Smart on Hacks, you are having fun. And so is she. Four Emmys in, and she's still killing as Deborah Vance, a legendary female comedian in her 70s, clawing her way back to relevance in the twilight of her career. In an industry that worships youth and shoves it to the top of the call sheet, that alone feels radical. In Hacks, Jean is the oldest woman in the room. Playing the oldest woman in the room, she squeezes out every possible laugh and more few preferred can deliver a cutting one liner followed by a moment of quiet heartbreak with the same precision as Jean Smart. But I mean, to tell you the truth, she's been doing that for decades. A lot of us first fell in love with her as sweet Charlene in Designing Women in the late 80s. Then she popped up on Frasier as Lana Gardner, loud, hilarious, and unforgettable, a role that won Jean her first two Primetime Emmy awards. And on the not so funny side, she was racking stuff like Fargo and the Watchmen and Mayor of Easttown. Ugh, the best. And then she topped it all with Deborah Vance. It's a role that reminded a lot of viewers just how formidable Jean Smart is. Along the way, she was happily married for 30 plus years to her husband, Richard Gilliland, whom she lost five years ago. Together they raised two kids, one of whom they adopted when Jean was 57. What? What? How many women in their 70s have a teenager? And you know, we're going. For years now, she has used her platform for advocacy. Jean, who is diagnosed with type 1 diabetes as a teenager, has even testified before the United States Congress about diabetes research funding. And after losing her father to Alzheimer's disease, she's also been active in raising awareness for Alzheimer's research. Please welcome a mother, an advocate, a Grammy nominee, a Tony nominee, a three time Golden Globe winner, and a seven time Emmy award winner. My first favorite kind of actor, a working actor, and a woman who is, yes, very much wiser than me. Jean Smart. Hi, Jean.

[Jean Smart]

Hi. You should be a publicist. Wow.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I'd like a side job. If you're looking for a publicist, I could do that for you, no problem. So, Jean, may I ask Your real age?

[Jean Smart]

74.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

How old do you feel?

[Jean Smart]

It depends on the day. This morning I felt 99. Right now I feel about 74. Tonight I'll feel, you know, late 50s. I'm going to see my son's opening night of the High School Musical. He's the male lead.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh my God. Really? How exciting. Yeah, that'll really make you feel youthful. Oh, that's so wonderful.

[Jean Smart]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

What's the best part about being your age right now?

[Jean Smart]

You know, I always Wish I was 20 years younger.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Do you really?

[Jean Smart]

Physically. Physically, I wish I was. I felt. Physically, I WISH I felt 20 years younger.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Jean Smart]

But no, I mean, I mean, I'm having such a good time doing the show. I mean, I'm continually amazed that I keep getting offered these wonderful roles. I mean, I'm eternally grateful. I can't really entirely explain it because I'm supposed to be, you know, moving to the back of the first line at this point.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No, but I mean, you have a youthful energy. There's no doubt about. Why did you feel 99 earlier?

[Jean Smart]

Oh, just, you know, aches and pains. I. I broke my knee last summer and I'm still in a lot of rehab and.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Uhhuh.

[Jean Smart]

That was a drag.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, I see. Got it. I have to tell you something. In prepping for this, I. I watched the episode of Veep that you so kindly graced us with your presence on.

[Jean Smart]

It was fun.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And I wish we'd gotten more to do together. And I think I told you that at the time, but I don't know if you remember, but. Cause I had actually. I mean, I forget these things after they're done. It's like I drop it from my hard drive.

[Jean Smart]

Oh, I have to tell you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

What?

[Jean Smart]

I just saw the movie you did with James Gandolfini. You guys were fabulous. I loved that movie. I was so jealous. I was so jealous.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Thank you.

[Jean Smart]

Thank you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That's so nice of you to say.

[Jean Smart]

Did you love working with him?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I did love working with him.

[Jean Smart]

I had a little crush on him.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, he was a sexy guy. There's no doubt about it. He was surprisingly insecure. Gene, maybe you won't be surprised to hear that.

[Jean Smart]

Well, he's probably a guy who didn't think he was attractive. And guys like that don't realize that women find those kind of bears, those big bears who are kind of a little shy. That's super attractive.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. Super appealing. And also, I think he was a little embarrassed to be an actor and thinking about emotional life. He was, you know. Cause he was sort of fighting this tough guy version of himself, you know, not unlike Tony Soprano, but. But also unlike Tony Soprano. So the character that he played in Enough Said, he was very much like that guy that he was with.

[Jean Smart]

Well, it was smart of him to do that.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It was smart of him. And he also, really. He did fight back a lot with the language. He was constantly pushing Nicole Holofsinger. That's somebody you need to get to know. Do you know her at all?

[Jean Smart]

No.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

She wrote and directed the film.

[Jean Smart]

Oh, no, no, I just met her. What am I saying I was for. Forget her last name because I can't pronounce it. Yeah, no, I just met her.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, yeah. She's fantastic. And you would love working with her. She's a wonderful director. But he was always pushing Nicole, saying, I don't want to do it that way. No. And I remember there was some point where we were working on a scene and I said, just do what she says. Just do it. Just. I did. And he did. And he did.

[Jean Smart]

And did he agree after he did it that it was right?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. Anyway, it's very sad that he passed away.

[Jean Smart]

Oh, that was very sad.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Felt really lucky to work with him.

[Jean Smart]

Oh, you guys were fabulous together.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Thank you. Hey, by the way, as I was getting ready to talk to you, I, of course, watched a bunch of your work and read articles and stuff, and one of the things I did watch that I was really intrigued by was the who do youo Think youk Are? Episode youe did about your family genealogy.

[Jean Smart]

Yes.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I mean, so what's so extraordinary that you find out in this episode is that you are directly related to one of the women who was accused of witchcraft in the Salem Witch Trials.

[Jean Smart]

Dorcas Hoare. Was her name. H O A R. H O A R. Although in one of the documents, they spelled it as if they thought that was her profession. You know, Dorcas, comma whore. W H O R. It was like, oh, my God. It's an unfortunate name. Eight times, great grandmother. But I'll tell you something, the craziest part of the entire thing was not on the show.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

What was it?

[Jean Smart]

I found out through Wikipedia. And they didn't put this part on the show because they don't put anything on the show that they can't absolutely 100% document. But they know this was her. Cause she was the only person who was convicted of witchcraft who confessed after they were convicted. And they said she was very smart to do that because it bought her some time. And she ended up not being hanged. She missed being hanged by a day. But they said that when they arrested her, she had what they call an elf lock, which my understanding is it's like a dreadlock. It's a long lock of her that's sort of twisted and matted and braided as if the elves had been dancing in your hair at night and wicked spirits and things.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Cool.

[Jean Smart]

And it was of another color, I'm assuming white. I can't imagine what other color it would be.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Jean Smart]

And when they arrested her, it was 4ft, 7 inches long, and she can't have been taller than that back in 1692. And they wanted to cut it, and she flipped out and said if they cut it, she'd die. So Grandma was an interesting eccentric gal.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And. Interesting. She might have had some mental health issues, possibly. Yeah. God bless her.

[Jean Smart]

Well, also, too, because I have a theory, because some people, if they have a head injury when they're young, then the hair there grows out white.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No.

[Jean Smart]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I didn't know that.

[Jean Smart]

So maybe she had a. Who knows? It was also rumored that she killed Grandpa, her husband.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay.

[Jean Smart]

He died.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Wait, were they accusing her of that as part of her.

[Jean Smart]

No, no, no. But apparently that was part of her past. So it was very easy to then accuse her, I think, of being a witch because she already was sort of suspect. And she was an older. She was 57, which was really old back then.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Jean Smart]

And also she had gotten in trouble for having a book on fortune telling.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I see.

[Jean Smart]

Which was a big no. No. And she'd also also been in trouble because she and a couple of her daughters had sort of a little cat burglary thing going on in Beverly, Massachusetts, which is right outside Salem, where the maids who worked for all the rich people in town.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Jean Smart]

Would steal stuff and bring it to my grandma and the dog. Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, I see.

[Jean Smart]

So she was. She was a rebel. Grandma.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, she was a rebel.

[Jean Smart]

The craziest thing about being on that genealogy show was the reason I got on the show. Why I was doing a little movie in Palm Springs, and we had just, I think we had just started shooting, like, maybe we'd been shooting for two days or something. And I. The hairdresser was a friend of mine, but the makeup artist was new to me, and a friend of hers who is also another makeup artist, I just happened to find out, oh, my friend's doing makeup on a show, you know, in town. I'm going to drop by the set and say hi to her. So this gal came into the trailer and was talking to her friend. And as she was talking to her friend, she got a phone call on her cell from Lisa Kudrow, who produces who do youo Think youk Are?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, yes, of course.

[Jean Smart]

And I said, oh, well, tell her I'm such a fan and I love that show she produces. And so she said, oh, well, you know, she said that you should come on the show. And I said, oh, that'd be wonderful. And then after the whole thing happened, and then I found out about the hair and all this kind of crazy stuff, I remembered that when I was two days before that, just as we were about to start shooting, I was sitting in the hairdresser's chair, and I had this fabulous long, kind of red, reddish, dark red wig. And I was just looking in the mirror, and I said, you know what, Susan? I said, I really. I don't know why. I just picture her with a white streak in her hair. No. I said, what do you think? Wouldn't that look cool? I just kind of see her that way, just like a white streak. And she said, yeah, sure. So every day, she'd pin a white extension in my wig.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No.

[Jean Smart]

How. And maybe 48 hours later, this girl happens to drop by the trailer, happens to get a phone call from Lisa Kudrow on her cell, who invites me to come on the show. And I find. And I meet my eight times great grandmother. It's like she was up there going, tell my story. Tell my story. Tell my story. Wow. Wild about the whole thing.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, that is mind blowing, by the way. Where is it? Hold on a second. Oh, here it is. You need this book. This book is called the Witches. It's written by.

[Jean Smart]

I have it. I have it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, you have it.

[Jean Smart]

I know. Yes. I think she's in the.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I think she's mentioned. I think she's mentioned she's one of the characters. Dorcas Hoare. Okay, good. So you have it.

[Jean Smart]

I do. Oh, no, it's a fantastic one.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Fantastic. Stacy Schiff, who wrote it, is an amazing writer, of course, and. Okay, good. I'm glad you have it. Yeah. Well, anyway, I see that you described yourself as being shy when you were little. Were you shy?

[Jean Smart]

I don't think I was shy, but I'm kind of weird. I'm either one extreme or the other. It's either like, I'm very, very private and don't. I don't want to share, but once you get me talking about myself, I don't shut up. So it's sort of like, you know, it's like, I don't go to therapy. Although lately I've been thinking that I should. I'm serious. But it's good.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It can be helpful. I've started.

[Jean Smart]

I've started recently. Absolutely.

[Judith Bowles]

Yeah.

[Jean Smart]

And my husband and I went for a while for couples therapy many, many moons ago. And so I saw the guy also separately, a little time, because, you know, they. I think they try to see you as a couple, and then they try to see you separately. So you can, you know, say things about your spouse that you don't want to say in front of them.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Jean Smart]

But I remember he asked me something once, and I said, the therapist? And he was. He was terrific. I really admired him. He was very smart, man. He asked me something. I said, I'm not gonna tell you that. He said, what do you mean? I said, that's private. And he was just like.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I was like, you're in therapy.

[Jean Smart]

Why would I tell you that?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So that's a good line. That's a good line for a therapy scene, by the way. Wouldn't that be hilarious? How dare you ask me that? That's private.

[Jean Smart]

That was exactly my reaction. I thought, absolutely not. I'm discussing that. But I was the. No, I was the family clown.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You were? Yeah, because you did plays in parades and things in your neighborhood.

[Jean Smart]

And of course, that was my sister's doing, though.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, really?

[Jean Smart]

Yeah, she was the organizer. Like, this is what we're gonna do. We're gonna do this, and then we're gonna do this, and, you know. Yeah, it was hilarious, fun. I don't know how we got the boys to go along with all of it. I really don't. But we did. Well, it was very cool.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

If you. If you assert yourself, they'll. They'll. They'll do it. They're told. I mean, we did that in our neighborhood, too, but they. All the boys were younger than us, so we just told them, stand here, do that. You play this. You know, blah, blah, blah. It's time to take a break. My conversation with Jean Smart continues in just a moment. And by the way, we just launched a Wiser Than Me newsletter on Substack where you can get behind the scenes, details from my conversation with Gene and more. You can subscribe now@wiserthanme substack.com. you'll get photos, videos, letters from me, think, exclusive bonus snippets, glimpses behind the scenes of the making of the podcast, a real deep dive into every guest, plus a place to connect with other Wiser than Me listeners. I hope you [e-mail] and stick around to see what we have in store. We'll be right back. The women on this show are extraordinary. They are funny, complicated, resilient. They've lived whole lives. And so much of that wisdom lives in their stories. Which is why it's so important to preserve those stories while we still can. For Mother's Day, there's something that feels very aligned with this show. It's called Romento, like remember and memento jammed into one word. And no, it's not one of those old Here, mom, fill out this book, Things that never get done. Remento is a different way to create a book of her stories. With Remento, your mom doesn't write anything. She just talks. Every week she gets invited to answer a new question. She clicks a link, she tells a story, and then Remento turns her voice into a beautifully written book. Inside the final book are QR codes you can scan to play the recording used to write that story. So years from now, when you really want to hear her voice, you can. Your kids can scan a page and hear her laugh, see her smile, and watch her tell the stories about memories, moments, and photos that only she can. Wiser Than Me proves that older women are not done. They are not fading out. They are full of stories we need to hear. And it turns out those stories might be closer to home than you might think. So this Mother's Day, don't give your mom something that wilts or a book she'll never fill out. Give a mom in your life a microphone and the space to be heard. To save $15 on your $99 purchase of Remento, head to Remento Co and use code Wiser at checkout Remento so you can preserve your mom's wisdom for generations to come. There is a very specific feeling when you put on a great pair of jeans. Like, ah, there you are. It's not just fit. It's the weight of the fabric, the way it moves, whether it holds its shape or kind of just gives up. By noon, good denim has a little attitude to it. And when the price makes you do a double take, you send it to everyone you know. That's got Quince written all over it. They have premium materials across the board, ultra soft denim, 100% European linen, organic cotton pieces that feel as good as they look starting at just $30. Something you may not know about Quince is that everything is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands because they work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen you're paying for quality and craftsmanship, not a markup. Good denim is an anchor. Build around it and suddenly getting dressed becomes simple instead of stressful. That's been the whole approach lately, leaning into pieces that feel effortless and comfortable but still look considered. Quince has been the go to for exactly that. Elevated fabrics, flattering fits, clothes that do their job really well. Refresh your everyday with luxury you'll actually use. Head to Quince.com wiser for free shipping on your order and thr 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com wiser for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com wiser this episode is brought to you by SoFi, the all in one finance app where you can bank, borrow and invest. Let's be real, most bank accounts are doing almost nothing for you. But with Sofi bank your money could actually grow. You could earn over eight times the national average savings rate with a Sofi High yield checking and savings account. And it gets better. SoFi is offering up to a $400 welcome bonus when you sign up with eligible direct deposit got credit card debt. You're not alone and those high interest rates can feel impossible to escape. A Sofi personal loan can help you consolidate debt into one simple payment with a low fixed rate so you could actually make progress. And if Investing feels intimidating, SoFi makes it simple. You don't to be a pro and you don't need a lot of money to start. Just start. You can begin in minutes and right now get up to $1,000 in stock when you open and fund a self directed account with Sofi Securities. This is saving, spending, borrowing, Investing. All in one app Achieve all your ambitions all in one [e-mail] Wiser so many women are in their protein era right now. Suddenly everyone is taking creatine and lifting things and reading labels like it's their job. Protein bars are taking over grocery aisles, but ingredients you've never heard of and a sore jaw from a cardboard like Protein bar? No thank you. Aloha is different. It's taste that grows. Yes, literally made with plant based organic ingredients that actually grow somewhere like outside, like in the ground. Not engineered in a lab. No sketchy fillers, no hard on your gut surprises. Just thoughtfully grown ingredients that feel as good as they taste. And the numbers make 14 grams of protein up to 10 grams of fiber. That's not the sexiest thing, but it's very important. And only five grams of sugar or fewer. Five. That's a civilized number. It's tasty, balanced protein that doesn't taste like punishment for once. So whether you're currently or eternally in your protein era, just know there's a reasonable delicious option out there waiting for you. Look for Aloha protein bars at your local grocery store [e-mail]. aloha taste that grows. Hey prime members, did you know you can listen to Wiser Than Me ad free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon music app today to start listening ad free. I don't know how much of this shit is real that I read about, you know, when I'm trying to have these conversations with folks, but I saw that, you know, were an admirer of Phyllis Diller.

[Jean Smart]

When I was in middle school, I saw her on TV and I just thought I'd never seen anybody, anybody act like that before and dress like that and her laugh. And I just thought she looks like she's absolutely having a ball.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Totally.

[Jean Smart]

And oh my.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Totally.

[Jean Smart]

I thought this is just. This woman's my idol. And I even went to a costume party dressed as her. I'd kill for a picture. But you know, back then nobody had cell phones, so.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But you know, it's funny. Cause then when I read that I thought I gotta go back and watch some clips of Phyllis Diller. It's quite remarkable what she did when she did it, you know. Cause nobody was. I mean women weren't. I think you can count on probably two or three fingers the female comedians at the time, or maybe even just two. And, and it's so interesting to me what her material was which was so self deprecating. And it was so.

[Jean Smart]

And putting her husband down all the time.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

All the time. And the way she presents herself. I mean, she presented herself so oddly with the hair and those eyebrows that went up.

[Jean Smart]

Yes. And the cigarette holder and the cigarette

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

and those crazy outfits. I mean. But you know, if you look carefully, she is not an unattractive woman. No.

[Jean Smart]

And great legs.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Great legs. But she found what I guess she thought was her Avenue enough way in. Cause it's fun to maybe go back and look at. She was on. Oh, Christ, what's the name? The Groucho Marx show, you Bet yout Life. And she made an appearance on it. And she's fairly demure, but also not. But it's interesting to watch that, knowing what we know today through today's lens. Watch how he asks her questions about, you know, leaving the house and going out and making jokes. He thinks it's kind of an outrage. He's polite, but it's quite clear that he's judging Groucho.

[Jean Smart]

Yeah. Really?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. I thought it was pretty interesting anyway.

[Jean Smart]

Wow.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Jean Smart]

And apparently she was very artistic as well. She did a lot of art. In fact, she would have parties and sell her art to her guests. You can go on ebay and see some of her stuff.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Really?

[Jean Smart]

Yeah. She was not untalented.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Like a. Like a painter type of thing?

[Jean Smart]

Kind of. Yeah. Drawings and. Yeah, she was good.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You did a lot of theater in. Oh, wait a minute. We need to talk about something. Can you talk about what the Seafare Queen competition was?

[Jean Smart]

Oh, my God.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Please. It sounds too good to pass up. I think there's a story there. I'm feeling like there might be a story here.

[Jean Smart]

Seafare is a yearly thing in Seattle where they have. It's a big boating thing. And they have the Navy pilots that go overhead. And they have all sorts of things going on. And they have hydroplane races on Lake Washington. And it's a big thing every summer.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Is it still going on to this day?

[Jean Smart]

Oh, yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, I see.

[Jean Smart]

Oh, yeah. Yeah. And they have a Seafare Queen, but they had me do for some Rotary Club or something. I don't know. Was it a Lions Club or something? They had me come out as, like, a crazy fake seafarer Queen. And they had me dressed. And I was Miss Polecat Inlet. And they had me dressed all up. Phyllis Diller, kind of with the crazy hair, crazy clothes. And I barge in on one of their meetings and cracking jokes and making fun of some of the guys. And was it. Oh, my God. I can't believe you found that.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I'm sorry about that. Was that. Was it like a beauty pageant that you were sort of making fun of or. Not really.

[Jean Smart]

No, I. You know what? I don't recall that that was what it was. Cause I was actually Ms. University District. You know.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

What does that mean?

[Jean Smart]

You know, it's like a little small thing as part of the. I think it might have been part of the seafare thing. I Don't even remember.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, it was like a beauty pageant kind of a thing. Yes. Uh huh. Yes, Got it.

[Jean Smart]

It was Miss University District.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Miss University, what district? Nice. It sounds sexy. It sounds very, very sexy. But anyway, so you were fooling around in Seattle, you were doing theater, and you were there for a while before you went to New York to pursue. Yeah. And you found a lot of success in New York, didn't you? It sounds like you did.

[Jean Smart]

Well, I never had. I hate saying this because actors hate me when I say this, but I never had to work a civilian job. I'm not saying I was thriving, but, you know, I was paying rent and feeding myself.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, that's fantastic.

[Jean Smart]

So I was lucky I got work right away.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, that is lucky. It's amazing. Can you talk about your process like you were talking about when a role is right for you? You can hear the character in your head and can you sort of expound on that a little bit? I'm curious about that. Cause I sort of have a similar experience. But I don't know if it's a character I hear. But explain what you mean.

[Jean Smart]

I really hear the voice in my head. And I know that if I don't right away, I'm gonna have my work cut out for me. Like for instance, when I auditioned for Fargo for Noah Hawley, I mean, to me, I read that speech and I knew this woman like that. I knew exactly who she was. I knew how she was raised. I could hear the accent. It's always just a great feeling when that happens. I don't know. I'm not explaining it very well. Which is why I would be a terrible drama teacher. If someone asks me why I do something, I go, well, seemed like a good idea. At the time of Easttown, I was pretty sure about what I wanted to do. I knew exactly how I wanted her to look.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Jean Smart]

I said, I want a wig that's kind of like June Allison's perennial hairdo, but not that neat.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes, I agree with you. When I'm reading a script and if I. If all of a sudden you are familiar with this person that you're. Whose dialogue you're reading, you feel like you're in their skin. Like you just know them intimately. That's always a big tell.

[Jean Smart]

Oh, yeah, Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I mean, it really is. Speaking of like wigs and putting a character together, of course, we have both worked with Kathleen Felix Hager. Yes.

[Jean Smart]

Love her.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Love. So she does the wardrobe on Hacks and she did it on Veep. I worked with her a couple of times. Isn't she marvelous?

[Jean Smart]

Oh, she's just the sweetest person in the world.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And she really has so talented. And she really helps create a character with you, does she not?

[Jean Smart]

Oh, yeah. People don't realize how important that is.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, we'll talk about how important that is.

[Jean Smart]

Well, I mean, I think people who aren't actors, if they think about the times that they dress up for some event that they don't normally dress that way. And, you know, you did. Makes you feel different about yourself. You know, you look in the mirror and you go, there's a. Wow, that's a side of me I don't get to show very often, you know?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Exactly.

[Jean Smart]

And actors get to do that all the time, you know, but it's very important. And with hair and makeup, too.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Jean Smart]

You know, obviously I'm not telling you, but I remember when I was doing Fargo, as we were getting ready and we were trying to figure out my hair and everything, I said, I said, she's gotta have. She's very practical. She's gotta have a short, permed, mousy brown hairdo. And I don't want a wig. Cause I don't want to be conscious of it. I want to just be able to be comfortable. And, you know, and I said, you know, it's like when my mother went through a period where she would cut her hair short and get it permed. And she looked so much prettier when it was naturally straight. And she'd just kind of pin it up a little bit, you know, but she just didn't want to fuss with it. And that woman in Fargo was just such a practical person. Right. But I knew that that's what she had to be. But I remember I let the hairdresser cut my hair and make it really super curly. And we put a drab brown rinse in it. And I just remember I looked in the mirror and I started.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Of course you did. I would have cried too. Yeah, that's a nightmare.

[Jean Smart]

I said, but it's perfect. I said, there she is. There she is. I suddenly saw what I'd had in my head looking back at me from the mirror.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right. So it. But it's interesting too. Cause what you say, like, you know, you dress up, you feel a certain way, and the same can be. I mean, it's not just about looking good. Although we all want to look good, I think, all the time. But you don't look good all the time. I wore a wig on V. But I know what you mean when you say you didn't want to wear a wig on Fargo because you want to put your hands through your hair and just have it feel. Because wearing a wig, like it's not going to move. It's not going to move. The lace doesn't have to pop up and all of that stuff. I mean, but that wig on that I wore on Veep was so critical

[Jean Smart]

and I didn't know you wore a wig. It looked fabulous.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Thank you. Yeah, it was a good wig. And it went through different. I had a couple of them because there was a period of time when Selena wanted to rebrand herself and she cut her hair super short. I look like a teenage boy.

[Jean Smart]

No, it did not.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But it was super important. And we used to refer to her as wiggy and she was a bitch. And she would be off to. She would be on the counter and was in a foul mood until she got onto my head and she felt like she was being respected.

[Jean Smart]

We have named all my wigs on hacks as well.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, you have? What are their names?

[Jean Smart]

Well, let's see. The main one, the first one is. Oh, Camille. She was the main one for like the whole first season. Yes, Camille. And then we started naming them after girls on the crew, Sophie and Sammy.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And do the girls on the crew know that?

[Jean Smart]

They found out.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And can you talk about your observations from a comedic point of view when you're playing a standup comedian versus playing a comic role and how you married the two within the show? I mean, in other words, you have a different rhythm when you're out on stage doing your act versus in a scene that's, you know, assuming the scene is meant to be funny. That's funny. Can you talk about that rhythm at all?

[Jean Smart]

Yeah, I've always, I mean, I've never done stand up, but I've always loved watching stand up. Right. I always loved, you know, Joan Rivers, her. Especially her early. Her earlier stuff. Elaine Boosler, of course, Phyllis Diller. And so part of it's sort of a monkey see, monkey do kind of thing. But I knew that I couldn't copy one of them. It had to come from me or it wasn't really going to work. It had to be my sense of humor. My biggest concern was that other real comics wouldn't buy me as a comic, but they seem to have given me.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay, yeah, no, you are bought as a comic. No, there's no doubt about it.

[Jean Smart]

Thank you. It's probably the most relaxed, you see, Deborah. Uh huh. Now that I think about it, and I haven't really thought about that, but I think she. When I think about the scenes where I'm doing stand up, she's so. She's so relaxed and the rest of her life she's a little bit tense, you know.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

A little bit, yeah.

[Jean Smart]

You know.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. That's interesting to think of being relaxed on stage.

[Jean Smart]

Which to me, I mean. I mean, I've done a ton of stage and I love being on stage. It's still nerve wracking, but I love it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Jean Smart]

But to be a standup comic, I can't even imagine anything scarier.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I can't either.

[Jean Smart]

I mean, if you're doing a play that's a comedy and you're not getting laughs, it's not painfully as painfully obvious as when you're a comedian and you're telling jokes right. To the audience's faces and they're not laughing.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Jean Smart]

It's one thing to have that fourth wall. You can just pretend they're not there, you know, and you keep going with the play.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. And also if you're in a play, and I mean, assuming there are other actors, you're part of a.

[Jean Smart]

And you know, they can bail you out.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

God, they can bail you out. Or sometimes you have a, you know, a bad game. Yeah, you know, Exactly.

[Jean Smart]

Or you get an audience full of smilers. You know, you'll get. You'll be doing a comedy and you'll just going, they hate us. You know, you're getting any laughs, right. And then all your friends come backstage and go, oh, my God, it was the funniest thing I've ever seen. Why weren't you laughing?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Jean Smart]

Because there's some people that just smile.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Jean Smart]

You know, especially sometimes you get an older audience, like a matinee.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jean Smart]

They're smiling their heads off and you think they hate you, you know, because they're not laughing out loud.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It's time for another break. More with Jean Smart after this. This message comes from Harvard Business School. Executive Education. Now is the time to invest yourself and change the world with your voice. Their programs connect you with faculty at the forefront of their fields, introduce you to a global network of leaders, and help you step into your full potential. The next chapter is yours. Let them help you write it. Apply today to accelerate your future. Learn more @hbs.me accelerate. That's HBS.me accelerate. Ready to fall in love with television again? Britbox has the sort of British TV that's likely to sweep you off your feet. Sharp writing, stunning backdrops, characters with plenty of baggage underneath. All that clever understatement from mysteries to period dramas, Britbok serves up the kind of series that politely suggests just one more and suddenly it's 2am want scandal and intrigue? You could watch the Lady, a new drama from the producers of the Crown. It's inspired by the true story of Jane Andrews, whose unlikely rise to royal dresser ended in tragedy and murder. Prefer drama with a comedic edge? You could watch Riot Women, from award winning creator Sally Wainwright. It follows a crew of menopausal women who decide to stop apologizing and start a punk band, as they should. There's so much to watch. You could disappear for months and emerge with a British accent and a taste for dry humor and damp weather. What's even more enticing, Britbox is ad free and you can try it for free. So go to Britbox.com and start streaming with the free trial Today you have a whole ritual right before bed, right? Fluff the pillow, white noise machine, no phone for 30 minutes before bed. Maybe some magnesium, a little lavender essential oil, the weighted blanket and the thermostat at exactly 68 degrees. And after that whole production, you lie down, stare at the ceiling and do the math. Maybe you can get five hours. The ritual was supposed to make sleep easier to find, but somehow it made the whole thing feel like a job. And the bad nights don't stay in the bedroom. They show up at the morning meeting in the patient's running thin by 4pm in the feeling that everything is just a little harder than it needs to be. A Sleep Number mattress can actually change. Softer when you need to sink in, firmer when your back starts talking, cooler when the nights get long and warm. And Sleep Number has introduced new mattress collections designed for personal comfort, technology that responds to the way you actually move through the night, not just when you set it, but all night long. Over 150,000 five star reviews rated America's Best Mattress Brand for Customer satisfaction by JD Power 2025 built to last 25 years through the pulled muscles and the pregnancies and every phase of life, when your body just needs something different than it did before, it might be the most important thing you weren't paying attention to. It's the Everything on Sale Memorial Day event from Sleep Number Every bed and base is on sale now. J.D. power ranks sleep number number one in customer satisfaction with mattresses purchased in store and online. For J.D. power 2025 award information, visit jdpower.com awards. Learn more at sleepnumber.com or visit a Sleep Number store near you. There is a very specific Feeling when you put on a great pair of jeans like, ah, there you are. It's not just fit, it's the weight of the fabric, the way it moves, whether it holds its shape or kind of just gives up by noon. Good denim has a little attitude to it. And when the price makes you do a double take, you send it to everyone you know. That's got Quince written all over it. They have premium materials across the board. Ultra soft denim, 100% European linen, organic cotton, pieces that feel as good as they look starting at just $30. Something you may not know about Quince is that everything is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands because they work directly with ethical factor and cut out the middlemen. You're paying for quality and craftsmanship, not a markup. Good denim is an anchor. Build around it and suddenly getting dressed becomes simple instead of stressful. That's been the whole approach lately. Leaning into pieces that feel effortless and comfortable but still look considered. Quince has been the go to for exactly that. Elevated fabrics, flattering fits, clothes that do their job really well. Refresh your everyday with luxury you'll actually use. Head to quins.com wiser for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com wiser for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com wiser. You were on Designing Women for five seasons and you actually met your husband doing that show, which is amazing.

[Jean Smart]

I did, yes. On the fifth episode before the show. The show hadn't even aired yet.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Isn't that remarkable? And then it was a fast and furious love affair is what it sounds like.

[Jean Smart]

Oh, my gosh.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Jean Smart]

I remember we were doing our table read and I remember I started to head upstairs where the room was where we're going to the table read. And I saw him standing there talking to somebody and he looked familiar. I had seen him in some stuff, but I just. It was just something about that. That smile and those little smile lines. And I thought, oh, I hope he's here to be on our show. Oh, really?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, how nice.

[Jean Smart]

And so then I walked in and there he was. He was sitting at the table and I was the only one of the four of us gals who he had not either met or worked with before.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, wow.

[Jean Smart]

In fact, he dated Delta briefly.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, wow.

[Jean Smart]

Yes, I was very kind of. Well, he was very forward and cheeky. He was very funny. And I guess that helped. Let me be sort of Forward too, I guess. And I invited him into my trailer a couple times to help me with crossword puzzles and stuff like that.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, crossword puzzle in quotes.

[Jean Smart]

And he. Oh, that old chestnut.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Jean Smart]

And then he invited me to see a play he was doing. And of course, I went, like, 17 times.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Jean Smart]

But I remember I told him after a few days and I said, you know, the only reason I'm being really nice to you, I said, is because every week one of us is assigned to sort of take care of the guest star on the show.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, please.

[Jean Smart]

And this is my week.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Aha.

[Jean Smart]

That's why I'm. You know. He didn't buy that at all.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It's like when they have those foreign students who come in for a month in high school from another country and you're supposed to be their assigned friends.

[Judith Bowles]

Yeah.

[Jean Smart]

Eat lunch with them.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Exactly. So you ended up marrying him, and you end up. You were pregnant on Designing Women. You were pregnant.

[Jean Smart]

I was, Yes. I was indeed.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And they wrote it into the show.

[Jean Smart]

They did. They married my character off just in time.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Jean Smart]

Because I remember the night that my character got married is the night I found out I was pregnant.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, my God.

[Jean Smart]

I was sitting in my dressing room wearing this tight, corseted wedding dress. I'm smoking a cigarette and I'm looking at myself in the mirror and going, jean, you are pregnant. You know, you were pregnant. And I got the message from my doctor that night. I just put out the cigarette. I said, that's it. No more of those.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, my gosh. So I. I was pregnant on Seinfeld. They wrote it into your thing. They didn't write it in for me.

[Jean Smart]

We.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

We covered it up. No, I mean. And I was. By the way, I got enormous. And so I just carried books and boxes and sat with magazines on my lap.

[Jean Smart]

Lots of coats.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Lots of big, oversized coats. Fortunately, that was the look back then. You know, that. Overside. Yeah. And which, by the way, is coming back. Which I'm horrified by this whole. This 90s thing. I think it's come back and I could just die. It's so awful looking, I think. But anyway. But the second time I was pregnant on the show, we didn't even bother to cover it up. Up. And then when I was about four or five months pregnant and, you know, just really starting to show Jerry came up to me and he said, you know, we have this idea in the writers room that maybe we'll write it in that Elaine is just getting fat.

[Jean Smart]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Tell that to somebody who's four or Five months pregnant. And I. Oh, my God, I burst into tears. It's sort of like you looking at yourself in the mirror as the character in Fargo. I mean, I was just done for. Anyway. That idea didn't fly.

[Jean Smart]

Oh, God.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But, yeah, but it's hard to have these little babies and work at the same time. How did you manage the straddling of two universes? I mean, plenty of people do it, but I think.

[Jean Smart]

I think I was just so. First of all, I was terrified because I'm type one diabetic.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That's right.

[Jean Smart]

And I got pregnant in an unplanned way. My doctor almost stopped speaking to me because that's a big no, no if you're diabetic. And he. He. He just, like, freaked out on me and started telling me that, you know, my baby was going to have heart problems and I was going to go blind, and I was going to lose. And I was going to lose my kidneys. I was going to have kidney failure, and. And I was going to go blind, possibly.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And was all of this really at risk for you? Was this all true?

[Jean Smart]

I. Apparently, you know, he had patients that had gone through that, and because I. My blood sugars were not in good control, and, you know, sometimes it's weeks that go by before you find out you're pregnant. You think, oh, my God, what has happened to this poor kid? In the time I didn't know I was pregnant.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, right. Yeah.

[Jean Smart]

So he sent me to this gal up in Santa Barbara at the Sansom Clinic. Clinic, where they specialize in type 1 diabetes research and specifically pregnancy. And I met this gal, this Dr. Richard, and I drove up there. We were both freaked out of our minds. And she said she herself was type 1 diabetic. Oh. And she said, I think you should start over. That was her euphemism for terminate the pregnancy. And she was actually a fabulous, amazing person. But I think sometimes doctors need to be a little more.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Have a bedside manner.

[Jean Smart]

Well, in the sense that you can't just assume that that's okay with everybody, you know?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Jean Smart]

It just was not something that I. I just. It's just not an option for me.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And.

[Jean Smart]

And all I remember was that I don't remember leaving that room. My poor husband. All I remember is the next thing I knew, literally, I was pacing outside the clinic, screaming at the top of my lungs, and my poor husband was in there making nice with the doctor. I guess she got the message pretty clearly that that was not a good idea.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So what did you have to do to Have a healthy pregnancy. What were you up against? What did you do?

[Jean Smart]

I had to become like the poster child for pregnant diabetics. And she became like my hero. She held my hand through that pregnancy. I was on the phone with her every single solitary day.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Really?

[Jean Smart]

I would read her my blood sugars. I would tell her what I ate, how long I exercised, what my blood sugar was 20 minutes before I ate, what it was 20 minutes after I ate. You know, da, da, da, da. And then of course, the baby would get a little bit bigger and that would all go out the window and you'd have to start over again with another plan of eating and exercising and shots. You know, how much insulin to take. When I'd have to get up at 4 o' clock every morning and take a shot, I was testing my. Pricking my fingers 12 times a day and doing blood tests. Because back then that's what you had to do.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But now just clarify something for me. You say, baby getting bigger. In other words, when you are type 1 diabetic and you're pregnant, the baby can get too big too quick. Is that what you're saying?

[Jean Smart]

Well, that's one of the problems. But. No, but just as the baby is naturally getting bigger, Larger, yes. Your insulin needs go up.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, I see.

[Jean Smart]

So by the time I delivered, I was taking enough insulin and I felt like to kill an elephant. So I'm just thinking, baby, please don't, don't bail on me because this is not going to be good.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Wow. Oh, I see.

[Jean Smart]

And they usually do take them a little bit early because they tend to be a little bit bigger.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And was he.

[Jean Smart]

No, he was perfect. I think he was. His due date was November 1st, and we scheduled a C section because of advanced maternal age, unquote. I was 38 and we had him October 25th. But right before, like a week or two before that, my doctor, who was also a high risk obstetrician, his name was Dr. Gurgley. Is that the cutest name for an obstetrician?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Adorable. Adorable.

[Jean Smart]

He was so.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It sounds like something out of Dr. Dolittle. It sounds like a Dr. Dolittle kind of name.

[Jean Smart]

Dr. Gurgly.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Gurgly.

[Jean Smart]

And he said to me, he said, nothing that we thought was gonna happen with your pregnancy has happened, so if you wanna go ahead and deliver, you can't. I mean, it's up to you. And I said, well, I think it's a little late in the game. I've been prepping for a C section months now for a C section. I, I've been taking classes. I said, you know, at this point, you guys, you can take him out my nose if you want. I mean, just get him out safely. And, you know, I don't think I'm physically or mentally prepared right now for.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And so all of this is happening as you're working. You had to keep up this kind of regime. That's hard work. Good on you for being. You were probably in the best shape of your life doing this, I would think.

[Jean Smart]

Oh, I felt fantastic.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Jean Smart]

Once I got over the, that terror that everybody making me feel guilty and terrified.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Jean Smart]

Once I got over that and realized I could do it, yeah, I'd bring my blood sugars down. Yeah, my blood sugar was lower than my husband's by the time I delivered.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And now as you've gotten older, is it more of a challenge to maintain an even keel, as it were?

[Jean Smart]

I mean, I, I don't have an insulin pump, although my, you know, doctor keeps saying he wants me to try it. And I've been. Can't teach an old dog new tricks. But I did promise him I would try it. So one of these days I'll try it. But I do have a monitor on my arm, which, a patch which talks to my phone. So instead of having to prick my finger and put it in a little machine to see what my blood sugar is, I can just look at my phone.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Jean Smart]

So that was a game changer, an absolute game changer. I mean, I was doing a one woman show in New York York this summer. It was so funny because the stage manager and the assistant stage manager and the, the makeup and hair gal and my dresser, they all got very schooled in type 1 diabetes over the summer. They'd have my phone propped up off stage in the wings because it has to be within like 25 or 30ft of you to work. And so, I mean, lots of times you go off stage and you have to do a quick change. But this, these are like NASCAR pit stops. I mean, one person would go, okay, okay, and they would have, they would have, like, my sermons standing by, and I'd stick it in my stomach while someone else was pulling off my shirt and someone else was putting blood on my face. And then somebody else was, you know, holding a thing, a Gatorade zero with a straw and up to my mouth, and they'd shut me back out on stage.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, my God.

[Jean Smart]

I'd come off stage and, oh, well, you're a little high now or you're a little low, so you better. They put A Coke in front of me with a straw and that. It was hilarious. Wow. But it worked.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, it worked incredible. And so then when you were 57, you adopted a baby.

[Jean Smart]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I mean. And do you remember, was there, like, a moment when you looked at each other, you and Richard, and thought, okay, we're gonna do this?

[Jean Smart]

Well, truth be told, we'd been talking about it for actually several years, and at one point, but he would always kind of go, oh, I don't know, I think we might be too old. And of course, by the time he finally said, yeah, let's do it, I said, yeah, well, now we are probably, you know.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Jean Smart]

And then we put it aside for a while because, you know, my dad got Alzheimer's and I. I just, you know, kind of put it on the back burner for a while. And then, of course, once we did all the paperwork, which was, I mean, indescribable amount of paperwork, it was like, I think, like a five year process from the time we actually started the paperwork till we got the baby. And then in the interim, our older son had turned 18. So then he had to do all the paperwork for himself.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, my God. Because he was no longer a minor.

[Jean Smart]

Yeah, it was. It was crazy. And half the time they couldn't tell us even how to fill out some of the paperwork because some of it was so new.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You had a son who just turned 18, and then you have a new baby. So it's almost like you're. I mean, you are a mother all over again, but it's like a different lifetime, right?

[Jean Smart]

Yeah. Actually, my older son, by the time we went to China, he was 19. And it was so cute, though. He said to me, I think the night before we left, he said, mom, I gotta tell you something. He goes, I gotta be really honest. I'm more excited about the trip than I am the baby. I said, that's okay. That's okay.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

He's a traveler at heart.

[Jean Smart]

Yeah. Of course, the minute he saw the baby, he was like, oh, my God. I didn't know I'd feel this way. This is amazing, but it was incredible to me, having had a biological child and having an adopted child, that you don't feel any different. It's like when they put that baby in your arms, it's like. And you suddenly realized you're the person that's gonna protect and keep that baby alive. And that baby needs you so much. That baby's not gonna make it through a couple of days without out. You. You right. You right. And. And it's just the feeling is just so, so overwhelming. I. I mean, I felt at that age, I felt like I could do anything. I was just, you know, obviously, the fact that he lost his dad when he was 12 breaks my heart.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Jean Smart]

And makes me feel bad that he had older parents. Although, you know, some parents die at 50, some parents live till they're 100, you know, so.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right, Exactly.

[Jean Smart]

Yeah.

[Judith Bowles]

That.

[Jean Smart]

That was devastating for all of us. But to lose your dad at 12 is just so cruel.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So cruel.

[Jean Smart]

So cruel. And it was unexpected. It wasn't like we had really any warning.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, it's nothing to do with being, you know, I mean, irresponsible or anything like that. It just is the way life happened to unfold, and it was a. Obviously a cruel turn. Let me ask you something that I would imagine the thing about that experience is that it was so unexpected that. Did you have a feeling? I've had moments like this in my own life, which is why I'm asking, did you have a feeling like, what's gonna happen next? Were you obviously devastated to lose your husband of 30 plus years? Geez. But. But was there a feeling like it was so out of the blue that you were sort of. Does that make sense, that question?

[Jean Smart]

Yes. Yes. Because I have always been a very, very optimistic person, and I feel lucky compared to most people, but that kind of exploded that feeling, and I want to get that feeling back. Because then you realize terrible things can happen just like that on a dime, and I don't want to go there.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Did you say you want to get that feeling back? Is that what you just said?

[Jean Smart]

I want to get that optimistic feeling back.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You have not gotten it back.

[Jean Smart]

I'm starting to climb back a little bit.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

What helps

[Jean Smart]

besides just time going by? I guess watching my kids overcome all that and be happy and, you know, thriving, that's probably what helps the most. Yeah. I mean, my little one, he's just having the best time in this play. I can't wait to see him tonight.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That's so exciting.

[Jean Smart]

And he's playing this very, very funny role, and he's having a blast. So, yeah, things like that, that make me feel like, okay. It's. It's okay. And I guess what you were talking about earlier in the show, great great grandma, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great grandma Dorcas, is that you think, okay, are we all on a path that we're just meant to be on and that we just have to relax and accept that, take the good with the bad and the Bad with the good and. And try not to be frightened and worried all the time. I mean, I. You know, of course, I always worry about my kids and my youngest ones taking driver's ed, and it's just like, oh, my God.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, right.

[Jean Smart]

The thought, the thought. You know, my first husband died in a car accident, and so I. I'm a thing about car accidents. You know, knuckle it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, I didn't know that before, Richard. Oh, I did not know that.

[Jean Smart]

Yeah. We were very young, but actually we were divorced, but we were talking about getting back together.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, I see.

[Jean Smart]

Shocking. But people would say to me, oh, you're so strong. You're so strong. And I go, well, I don't know. Am I? I mean, is it strength if you don't have any choice? You just keep putting one foot in front of the other.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Jean Smart]

And because you. You're doing it for your kids. If it wasn't for my kids, I probably would have just. Just, you know, for a while anyway. Would have just gone to bed and pulled the covers over my head.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, yeah, because that's what I was so thinking about is that you.

[Jean Smart]

You.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You lost your husband and you're. You're going through the grief of that, but then you have the other grief that your children, that you have to hold their grief, and that's like a. It's like a kaleidoscope of different kinds of grief that you are having to wrap your arms around. So I would imagine that that was particularly difficult. But I can see how maybe watching them get through it is a kind of comfort for you, I would think.

[Jean Smart]

Oh, yeah. What I felt really guilty about was less than two years later, which is. Goes by, you know, that's that long.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Jean Smart]

I found out out of the blue that I had to have heart surgery and I had to tell my kids. It was like, no. Oh, God. Don't have to tell my kids this. Oh, my God. Oh, it was just. I thought, how could I have done this? How could I have done this? I didn't take good enough care of myself.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

What was the heart surgery? And are you fine?

[Jean Smart]

Yeah, I'm fine. It was a big.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, it was a biggie. A real biggie.

[Jean Smart]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But look what they can do now.

[Jean Smart]

I had a female surgeon. She hid the skull.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, that's so nice.

[Jean Smart]

Can't believe I just did that.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Jean just showed me her decollete, which I will not share with anyone. But suffice it to say, it's stunning and unmarked by any.

[Jean Smart]

Anything, because, I mean, I Had a friend who had the exact same surgery, and he said, I look like Frankenstein. Right. What the hell?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But you got through it.

[Jean Smart]

That woman was a saint. But, you know, I didn't know until months later how much that had bothered and frightened especially my youngest child. Yeah, because he thought, yeah, now I'm gonna lose my mom.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But he didn't.

[Jean Smart]

He didn't, he didn't.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, you're clearly a survivor and a strong person, and you've modeled that for them. And I think that probably speaks volume. Oh, you have no doubt. I mean, I don't know you super well, but that's evident to and it speaks volumes. I think sometimes the modeling of behaviors is more powerful and more meaningful than the talking about behaviors, you know?

[Jean Smart]

Oh, oh, absolutely. Yeah, Absolutely.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It's time for one last quick break. We'll be right back with even more from Jean. Food waste shouldn't exist. There is no reason that our leftovers should end up in a landfill. But that's the final destination for about a third of the food we grow. Our ancestors would be confused. They use their food scraps as compost or as animal feed or in weird soups, all the stuff we did before garbage was invented. But composting is hard work. Living with a bucket of rotten food on your counter is gross. Most food goes in the trash because it's easy. And these days, we'll take any easy we can get. But now there's something easier. Drop your scraps in a mill food recycler. It looks like a kitchen bin and an iPhone had a baby. It takes nearly anything, even meat and bones. It works automatically. You can keep filling it for weeks and it never smells. When you finally empty it, you've got these nutrient rich grounds. Use them in your garden, pour them in your green bin, or have mill get them to a small farm. So the food you don't eat can help grow the food you do. Just like it should be. It's why I own a mill, why I invest in mill, and why I'm still obsessed with my milk. If you want to get obsessed too, go to mill.comwiser to get $75 off. That's mill.comwiser for $75 off. Can you talk about what it's like to date now?

[Jean Smart]

Oy.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Do you like it? Are you having fun?

[Jean Smart]

Yes. No. I met an extremely lovely man and I'm very grateful. But going on a date, basically for the first time in, you know, 30 plus years, 35 years is insanely demoralizing. I, I How'd you meet him?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

How'd you meet him?

[Jean Smart]

I met him. Do you know Caroline Ray?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No.

[Jean Smart]

The comic?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, yes, I do know her. I mean, I don't know her personally, but I know of her. Yes.

[Jean Smart]

She's hilarious. They're very old friends. And she had a party at her house, and that's. That's where I met. I met him on the dance floor on her patio. So he called me, we went out to dinner, and I was just a wreck, an absolute wreck. What? And I remember standing outside myself, watching myself in this restaurant, just going, oh, God. You didn't just say that. Oh, could you be more boring? Could you be less interested? Oh, my God. Oh, my God. All night.

[Judith Bowles]

Yeah.

[Jean Smart]

And. And he kind of gave me the friendly little side squeeze as we're leaving the restaurant, and I'm telling him, you know, it's like, first time I've been out with. The first time since, you know, you lost your husband. Oh. It's like, you know, I'm thinking, oh, my God. I have never felt older or more unattractive than I did in that moment. I went home thinking, I will never hear from this man again. It was just.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But did you like him?

[Jean Smart]

So depressing.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Did you like him during.

[Jean Smart]

I did. I did. I did. I did. He's very open. He's very.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So then what happened?

[Jean Smart]

Well, I don't know. Then he started texting me, so I was like, oh, wow. Okay. I didn't send him running 100 miles in the other direction. He's several years younger than me.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, that's nice. I mean, maybe.

[Jean Smart]

Well, makes me paranoid. What are you paranoid about? Because. Because you go, oh, well, great. The last woman he dated could be my daughter.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No, he.

[Jean Smart]

I mean, seriously. Yeah. How.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

How young is he?

[Jean Smart]

He's 67.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, that's not that much younger.

[Jean Smart]

Almost eight years.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, that's all right. One of my very good friends married a guy nine years younger.

[Jean Smart]

Yeah. Yeah. Good for her.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, good for her.

[Jean Smart]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

They're still married. It's all working.

[Jean Smart]

Oh, good. And so.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. Well, you clearly like him. You're blushing. You like him.

[Jean Smart]

I do. I do.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So. But you're not living together. No, no, no, no, no, no. Okay.

[Jean Smart]

No, we're not.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Got it.

[Jean Smart]

Because both. Both my sons live with me.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh. They both are. There.

[Jean Smart]

Oh, nice. Which has been great, because Connor has. I mean, I don't know how I could have gotten through the last five years without Connor living with me. He's in the guest house out back. I don't see him that much. But he's there.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Jean Smart]

And that's been my saving grace.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, that's so nice. So then your younger son, Forest, is he gonna be graduating?

[Jean Smart]

Yes. Oh, wow.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

This year. Wait, this year?

[Jean Smart]

Yeah, he's going to college in September. I can't bear it, I'm gonna die.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That's a big change.

[Jean Smart]

Not having him under my roof every night. Night is going to be inconceivable. Inconceivable.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Go to school with him, Jean. Just go to school with him.

[Jean Smart]

I'm getting an apartment nearby. Don't worry, don't worry. I won't bother you on the weekends. But you know, just call you just call you a few times a day, make sure you're eaten. And

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Hacks is ending. Season 5 is the last one.

[Jean Smart]

Yeah. Wow.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So that's another big change.

[Jean Smart]

That's gonna be bizarre because the only other show I've done that long was Designing Women. But it doesn't feel the same because I think for a couple of reasons because I was recently married and had just had a baby, basically. On the show.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Jean Smart]

I mean, in real life and on the show.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Jean Smart]

But that was sort of where my mind was, you know, when I left Designing Women.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Jean Smart]

And also too, which you know fully well is that doing a single camera show in terms of the crew is such a different experience than doing a. Yeah. Sitcom. Multi camera. Because when a multi camera show, you see the crew like a half a day a week, you know, maybe the day you shoot. And so you get to know them if the show runs obviously for five years. But it's not, it's not the same feeling as when you're with people sometimes 14, 15 hours a day, every single day. And our crew comes back every season with the same people coming back.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right. For months on end.

[Jean Smart]

Just been amazing. And you do become very, very bonded with the whole group.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, you do. And if you go on location, which I know you guys went to Singapore or something at one point on your show and we were on location on Veep, we were living in Baltimore for four years. So you.

[Jean Smart]

Oh, that's right.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. So you become just corny as it sounds. You're kind of like a family. You glom onto each other. Even if you're not on location. You do, because you really are spending that much time together. It's a really different experience. It was very. It was very hard to say goodbye to when I actually. Every job I've ever had to leave.

[Jean Smart]

Well, how many you, how many years did you do? Seven.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Seven Seasons of Veep. Yeah, that was. I was gutted leaving that. Gutted, yeah. That was so.

[Jean Smart]

Yeah, it's amazing. But it's, you know, this business, it's. The longer you're in it. It is a small world. And I know I'll work with some of those people again, but it's.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, it is. Don't you find, or do you find that the longer you're in it, too, you realize, oh, it's just so precious. And when it works well, the gift of it working well is.

[Jean Smart]

Yeah. And you think, how come it's not always this way? It should always be this way.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, it should. Oh, well, anyway, what a delight to talk to you. Can I ask you a couple of very quick questions and then I'll let you go? We've been talking forever, which I really

[Jean Smart]

appreciate blabbing away here.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I know. Look at us. You've got to go and get yourself ready for the big opening. What's the show they're doing tonight?

[Jean Smart]

It's called the Prom.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay.

[Jean Smart]

They've done it on Broadway. It's very funny. I was not familiar with it. It's very funny. It's about these three kind of washed up Broadway actors who are just a bunch of divas, and they decide they need to do. I don't know, for whatever reason I can't remember. I haven't read the entire script. They need to do a good deed or change their image or something. Something. And they hear this story about this school in Indiana, the heart of the Midwest, where this girl is not being allowed to bring her girlfriend to the prom. And the school is going to cancel the prom. And it's all a big thing, and the whole community is rioting about it. So they show one of my son's entrances because he plays this Broadway musical star. One of his entrances is there's a PTA meeting and the parents are fighting and fighting about this. And some say, cancel the prom. This is ridiculous. This is horrible. And they're saying, come on, this is. Grow up. Open up your eyes. And one parent finally says, why are you so afraid of homosexuals? My son comes barging in his sequin, whatever, and he's going, where's the lesbian girl? So I can't wait. I can't wait. Oh, that's so good. Oh, that's so funny. Exactly.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay, so, Jean, is there something you go back and tell yourself at 21?

[Jean Smart]

I guess I would say a lot of the things that you think are absolutes are anything but. And. And your life is going to go through so many changes, so many stages. People are going to come into your life and leave your life for various reasons. There's a lot more gray area in life than maybe you think or realize. I mean, I married the first man I slept with. Oh,

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

how'd that go?

[Jean Smart]

Because we didn't know about Jean Smart. No, he was my first love. I, I, it was just, you know, I met him when I was 20 and got married when I was 22. Yeah. I guess that would probably be the biggest thing.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I like that. Is there something you go back and say yes to?

[Jean Smart]

Some professional opportunities I had that I think I was just scared, you know, to say yes to. I was always the good girl growing. I'm doing this way too much. I was always, when she says this

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

too much, she's doing the air quotes.

[Jean Smart]

The air quotes, Quotes.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I can, I'll put, I'll put it in, in the edit. I'll use it. She did another air quote. Jean. Air quote Smart.

[Jean Smart]

I was always the good girl growing up. Uhhuh. And I was the even, I was, even when I was little, I was one in the family who would, was the kind of middle child mentality of don't rock the boat, make everything's good. And my mother said even, she said, you and your sister, from the day you were born, you were such opposites. We were so much more alike when we got older. But she, she, she said your sister came out of the womb with her dukes up. You know, like every bottle, every diaper was like, oh yeah, oh yeah. You and whose army lady?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Jean Smart]

You know?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Jean Smart]

And she said it was just, and she goes, then you showed up and you were just like putty in my hands. Just wanted to everyone to love you. And isn't that weird?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Jean Smart]

I mean, babies do show up with personalities.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Jean Smart]

That are kind of. And so I think I've always worried a little too much about people liking me. That's probably the thing that I would tell myself is don't worry so much about pleasing everybody, because I've done that my whole life.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Your whole life. Are you getting bad, better at, at, at making that adjustment?

[Jean Smart]

I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm trying because, you know, as you get older, you, you realize one of the most valuable things you can do is just simply have that, that group of people in your life, whether they related to you or not. Doesn't have to be a ton of people. It's going to be just a handful of people who really care about you. And then you really care about them who wish you well, honestly wish you well, and you honestly wish them well and worry about just pleasing them and don't worry about everybody else. You can't control what people think of you as much as you would like to.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, it's a hard one. Yeah, that's a hard one. But to have that community that you're talking about, it's like a life preserver in the middle of an ocean. It really is you.

[Jean Smart]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Is there something. Although we're not that far apart in age, but is there something you would like, well, me to know about aging?

[Jean Smart]

Oh, God. I think. I think every bit of your health that you feel good about, you know, just don't take it for granted. Don't take anything for granted, you know, because it. It's really is the truest thing that was ever said in the English language was. Youth is wasted on the young boy, I'll say. Because you don't ever think you're going to have aches and pains. You don't ever think you're going to have anything wrong with you. You. You feel like you. The future is just this long road ahead. You can't even remotely see the end of it. It's just all. Everything's coming up, everything's off in the future, off in the future, off in the future. And then all of a sudden, you go, oh, shit, it's here. What the hell?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, exactly. Or even. And even when I was like, if you look at pictures, I don't know if you've had this experience, but I look at pictures of myself when I was younger, and I used to fret so much about this or that, and I look at myself and I'm like, oh, my God, I look fantastic.

[Jean Smart]

I know you're gonna kill to look like that again.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Kill.

[Jean Smart]

Yeah. And I'm sure in 10 years, I'll kill to look like I do now.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Exactly.

[Jean Smart]

That's what you have to remember.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That's the part that you have to remember. Yeah. Yeah. That's the part you have to remember. Jean, I loves talking with you. You're. You're a dream boat. And I hope we get to work together sometime in a substantial kind of way.

[Jean Smart]

H. I would love that.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I would love it, too. It would be divine. All right, well, I'll see you on the set.

[Jean Smart]

Deal. Done. Okay. Thank you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Thank you.

[Jean Smart]

Thank you, honey. Thank you. Bye.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Bye. Oh, well, I loved every minute of that conversation.

[Jean Smart]

Gosh.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

All right, let's get my mom on the phone. There's something Jean and I talked about that. I'm just dying to discuss with her. Hi, Mommy.

[Judith Bowles]

I love.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I just had the honor of speaking to Jean Smart. And she was utterly charming, chock full of stories. Oh, and I thought of you, mom, because she grew up in Seattle and they had beauty pageants there. And she was Miss University District. Perfect. And I. Isn't that funny? Isn't that a great name?

[Jean Smart]

Absolutely perfect, yes.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And so you were a beauty queen at Duke?

[Jean Smart]

At Duke, yes.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And what. What. How did that work, mom, when you were beauty queen?

[Judith Bowles]

Well, let's see. Well, we had them in high school, too. You know, they also had beautiful baby contests and all kinds of. The beauty was the thing in high school. You had a queen, and then you had four of us who were attendants at the football game. Then she rode in a car around and was the beauty queen. And then the four of us were in another car behind her as, like,

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

members of her court. Of her beauty court. And what was your obligation as member of the court at Duke? What did you do? What was that about?

[Judith Bowles]

You went to the beauty prom and you were up on the stage with the queen. And then you were. And then you danced, and then you got a big picture of yourself in the yearbook.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Do you have that yearbook? No.

[Judith Bowles]

No.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, I wish. Well, we're gonna be getting. I gotta find that picture of you, Mommy. And it's funny. Cause I was talking to Gene about that. We were talking about getting older and. And so on.

[Judith Bowles]

How old is she, by the way?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

She's 74. But it was interesting to talk to her about beauty in regards to aging. We were both saying, you know, we look at pictures of ourselves from, you know, 30 years ago or even longer, and you can't believe you looked like that. And what you were thinking about yourself at that time, which was you had no idea how great you looked. But you. I mean. And we were.

[Judith Bowles]

That's absolutely true. That is absolutely true. You had no. When I see young pictures of myself, I think, God, if I'd only known.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I know. I have the same feeling. But, mom, you must have known that you were pretty if you were chosen to be beauty queen. Or did you feel like an imposter?

[Judith Bowles]

I felt like, if this is a big deal, okay. I mean, I truly. I neutralized it, I think. And I don't know why I did that. Maybe because I was too afraid to not. But I neutralized the experience. It did not. It was not a big deal experience for me.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

We do need to, mom, look up your beauty queen portraits in the Yearbook. Wait, that has to be found. That really must be found.

[Judith Bowles]

Well, then there are looks and there are looks. And the fact of the matter is that, you know, you're inside.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You're what?

[Judith Bowles]

I mean, you're inside. I mean, we're inside of ourselves. We live inside. We don't live in our faces.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right. But it's a shell. But it's a meaningful shell, too, you know?

[Judith Bowles]

Yes, it's a meaningful shell.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Judith Bowles]

And I remember that with a couple of friends when I was like a. So where we were looking in the mirror and we started our eyebrows. And I had a cousin who I adored, Elaine. And she used to, when she was going for a date, she would comb her eyebrows. And I just thought that was the most beautiful thing I'd ever seen somebody. I mean, combing, she combed.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Very glamorous for her to do that. Did she pluck her? Did you pluck your eyebrows? Were people plucking eyebrows really thin then?

[Judith Bowles]

No, not thin, but I plucked them so they were just, you know, just right. Yeah, yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Huh. Wow, that's so interesting. God, Mommy. Oh, boy, oh, boy, oh, boy. Well, so much for beauty.

[Judith Bowles]

So much for beauty.

[Jean Smart]

There, There it goes.

[Judith Bowles]

Everybody's got their dollop.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. Some more than others, I guess.

[Judith Bowles]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

All right, my mommy. Well, love you, you.

[Judith Bowles]

I love you, honey. And so take care of yourself, okay?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You do the same. And take care of your beauty queen self every night. Wait, say it again. Comb my eyebrows every night. Oh, yeah. That's part of my ritual. I take my magnesium. I comb my eyebrows. I love you.

[Judith Bowles]

I love you, honey.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Talk to you later. There's more Wiser Than Me. With Lemonada Premium, you can now listen to every episode ad free. Plus, subscribers also get access to exclusive bonus interview excerpts from each guest. Just tap that subscribe button on Apple podcasts. Head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. That's lemonadapremium.com. make sure you're following Wiser Than Me on social media. We're on Instagram and TikTok at wiser than Me. And we're on Facebook at Wiser Than Me podcast. We're also on substack at wiser than me.substack.com wiser than me is a production of Lemonade Media, created and hosted by me, Julia Louis Dreyfuss. The show is produced by Chrissy Paul Pease and Oja Lopez. Brad hall is a consulting producer. Rachel Neal is Consulting Senior editor and our SVP of weekly content and production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Paula Kaplan, Stephanie Whittles, Wax, Jessica Cordova, Kramer and me. The show is mixed by Johnny Vince Evans with engineering help from James Sparber, and our music was written by Henry hall, who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music. Special thanks to Will Schlegel and of course, my mother, Judith Bowles. Follow Wiser Than Me wherever you get your podcasts. And if there's an old lady in your life, listen up.