Julia Gets Wise with Roz Chast

Summary

Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus

Episode: Julia Gets Wise with Roz Chast
Release Date: November 19, 2025
Podcast by Lemonada Media

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Episode Overview

Season 4 of “Wiser Than Me” opens with Julia Louis-Dreyfus in conversation with beloved cartoonist Roz Chast. Julia, herself recently affected by the loss of her home and treasured possessions in a wildfire, finds comfort and kinship in exploring laughter, anxiety, aging, and the art of confronting life’s absurdities—both through Chast’s work and their candid conversation. Their wide-ranging discussion covers Roz’s childhood, the roots of her humor and anxiety, parenting, marriage, the realities of caregiving, and the strange intimacy of family life.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Personal Cost of Loss and the Power of Humor

• Julia recounts losing her home and keepsakes to the Pacific Palisades fire ([01:43-08:50]):
  • The devastation of losing "everything," including a cherished private cartoon collection.
  • Cartoons, for Julia, represent “distilled joy, wit, and profundity.”
• Cartoons as a salve: “It’s so odd, the things that are precious to us, isn’t it?”
  — Julia Louis-Dreyfus ([07:55])
• Roz Chast is introduced as a master of capturing life’s anxieties and hilarity.

Childhood, Anxiety, and Becoming Roz Chast

• Roz admits her childhood was lonely and suffused with hypochondria ([15:20-18:54]):
  • Overprotective parents, fear of illness, and being an only child formed her worldview.
  • “I just fucking hated being a kid. Just really hated it.”
    — Roz Chast ([15:20])
• The Merck Manual—her introduction to endless medical anxieties.
• Parental approach: Her mother’s trauma (having lost a child before Roz) translated into high anxiety and fear.

Comedy Born from Anxiety

• Julia observes Roz’s unique ability to transform inner anxiety into joy for others.
• Roz reflects: “There’s some relationship for me between anxiety and hilarity... everything seems to alternate between like hilarity and anxiety.”
  — Roz Chast ([12:44])
• Shared stories of uncontrollable laughter—especially when it’s “the worst time to laugh.”
• Childhood “club against mothers” and realization that her home life was not universal ([27:25-28:42]).

Negotiating Aging

• On turning 70: “Every moment that I’m not in pain or that somebody I love is not in pain or that I’m not dealing with some crisis just feels like, whoa, fantastic. Whoa, that rocks.”
  — Roz Chast ([11:29])
• Growing older equals dodging ‘asteroids’—setbacks and losses.

Artistic Process and The New Yorker

• Inside the New Yorker cartoonist workflow ([33:04-34:37]):
  • Submitting weekly "batches" of cartoons with a highly selective acceptance rate.
  • “If they can do something else, they should do that. …Don’t do this. …This is when you don’t have anything else that you can do.”
    — Roz Chast ([34:08-34:37])
• The drive to keep creating: “Unlike being an athlete or a dancer, you can continue… there’s always new stuff to learn.”
  — Roz Chast ([34:59])

Parenting, Suburbia, and Self-Doubt

• Roz’s discomfort moving from New York City to Connecticut; learning to drive as an adult and her “car hypochondria.”
• Stories of “failing” at typical suburban mom activities—breaking up bags of ice at field day, school volunteer moments, and feeling out of place ([49:16-50:44]).
• “There is this weird part of you that says, you give up everything, if you're not that, then there’s something wrong with you.”
  — Roz Chast ([52:09])
• Parenting styles: Learning from books to strike a “third path” between over-control and passivity:
  • How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk, and Stop Struggling With Your Child ([56:14]).

The Sex Talk, Generational Wisdom, and Transitions

• Julia and Roz swap painfully awkward stories about explaining sex to their children ([60:24–64:04]).
  • “I feel like I’m dreaming.” — Roz Chast, quoting her daughter’s reaction ([63:54])
• Parenting as a verb—a shift understood over the generations.

Caregiving, End-of-Life, and How Society Fails the Aged

• Chast describes the agony, black comedy, and logistics of caring for aging parents.
  • “It was all new information to me.” ([73:21])
• “If you don’t contribute to the economy, why don’t you just fuck off and die?” — Roz Chast’s indictment of the U.S. neglect of elderly care ([71:01]).
• Recommendations for others facing caregiving: “I would recommend reading your book” (Julia, referencing Roz’s memoir Can’t We Talk About Something More Pleasant?) ([72:36]).

Marriage, Independence, and Joy

• Chast’s longtime marriage, the independence between spouses, and finding balance ([75:02-76:44]).
  • Her and her husband’s divergent passions (New York City vs. Halloween).
• “One of the reasons why we’ve been married a long time is that … it’s not like some crisis … it’s like, you do this, I’ll do that.” ([75:53])

Meaningful Reflections and Quickfire Wisdom

• Something Roz regrets missing: Turning down a chance to see Madonna in NYC, 1979 ([77:05]).
• Spent too much time on: Cooking, notably the “rock pizza” debacle ([77:40-78:33]).
• Looking forward to: Thanksgiving and family togetherness ([78:43]).

Colors, Cartoons, and Creative Legacy

• Julia likens Roz’s work and persona to zinnias: “They’re hearty, and they’re very colorful. …You remind me of zinnias.”
  — Julia Louis-Dreyfus ([79:51-80:03])
• Mutual admiration and the importance of humor in healing.

Bonus: Judith Bowles Segment

• Julia calls her mother, Judith Bowles, to reflect on Roz Chast’s wisdom and their own generational communication around taboo topics like sex ([80:22-END]).
• Judith recounts her own mother’s only sex advice: “Oni men liked it.”
• Both conclude on the marvel and importance of language, humor, and wise women.

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Notable Quotes

• “Every moment that I’m not in pain… just feels like, whoa, fantastic. Whoa, that rocks.”
  — Roz Chast ([11:29])
• “I just fucking hated being a kid.”
  — Roz Chast ([15:20])
• “There’s some relationship for me between anxiety and hilarity… everything seems to alternate…”
  — Roz Chast ([12:44])
• “If you don’t contribute to the economy, why don’t you just fuck off and die?”
  — Roz Chast ([71:01])
• “I feel like I’m dreaming.” (after getting the sex talk)
  — Roz Chast ([63:54])
• “Cartoons are like poetry in a way… distilled.”
  — Julia Louis-Dreyfus ([05:03])
• “It’s so odd the things that are precious to us, isn’t it?”
  — Julia Louis-Dreyfus ([07:55])
• “One of the reasons why we’ve been married a long time … you do this, I’ll do that.”
  — Roz Chast ([75:53])
• “You remind me of zinnias.”
  — Julia Louis-Dreyfus ([79:51])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:43] Julia on losing everything in the fire, cartoons as life's "salve"
• [09:20] Roz enters; mutual admiration between Julia and Roz
• [12:44] Roz on the interplay of anxiety and hilarity
• [15:20] Roz's childhood: “I just fucking hated being a kid.”
• [27:25] Childhood realization of family dysfunction
• [33:04] Behind the scenes at The New Yorker
• [49:03] Transition to the suburbs and parenting in a new environment
• [56:14] Roz's recommended parenting books and parenting styles
• [60:24] The awkward parent–child sex talk
• [68:23] End-of-life care, grieving, and societal failures
• [75:02] Lessons from parents' marriage; the value of independence in her own
• [77:05] Regrets (“I missed Madonna at a club”), life wisdom, and what’s next
• [79:51] Julia's visual metaphor: Roz as colorful, resilient zinnias
• [80:22–85:57] Judith Bowles’ reflections and family lore

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Tone & Style

The tone is warm, self-deprecating, and candid, punctuated with dark humor and deep empathy. Both women move fluidly from laughter to vulnerability, modeling the value of open, honest, and wise intergenerational conversation.

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For New Listeners

This episode is a masterclass in finding comic relief amid anxieties, in cherishing laughter and connection, and in learning from those who’ve lived deeply. Through Roz Chast’s honesty and humor, Julia Louis-Dreyfus helps illuminate the wisdom and irreverence that get us through life’s hardest moments—proving again that we are, indeed, “wiser together.”

Transcript

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

There's nothing like things getting done without you even asking. Like someone saving you a seat or a co worker tackling a dreaded task. Everyday moments like this are what help life run a little smoother and remind us we're not alone. Staying connected matters. That's why AT&T has connectivity you depend on. Guaranteed. Or they'll proactively make it right. That's the AT T guarantee. AT&T connecting changes everything. Terms and conditions apply. Visit att.comguarantee for details. Hey, it's me, Julia Louis Dreyfus. We are officially back with a brand new season of Wiser Than Me. To celebrate your out of this world support for our show, we've been brewing up something special. A Wiser Than Me Mirror Traveler. It's a versatile, sustainable travel mug to keep your coffee hot and your tea cozy all year round. It's perfect for wise women on the go. Head over to wiser than me shop.com to grab yours now. Okay, here's the show.

[Roz Chast]

Lemonade.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

If you've been listening to our Wiser Than Me podcast for a while, you've heard lots of episodes that were recorded with me sitting in my cozy little office in Pacific Palisades, California, surrounded by my beautiful things, mementos, photos of my family and my friends, my books that were very important to me, and art that made me comfortable or inspired me.

[Roz Chast]

Or both.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Definitely both. Well, all of that is gone now. Burned up in the Pacific Palisades fire at the beginning of the year. It was a fire that destroyed everything in our home and of course, the structure itself. It was a 1929 Spanish Revival home built and designed by a painter named George Barker. I remember a long time ago when we drove up to look at that house 32 years ago. It was a lot more house than we could afford at the time. And we pulled up in front of the house and I took one look at it and I said, uh, oh. So in these little stories that I tell before episodes of the podcast and those stories this year, you're probably going to hear a bit about what we lost in that fire because, you know, it's actually, it's totally on my mind. This was a community tragedy for the whole Palisades and Altadena. And to tell you the truth, it's still raw. Every once in a while I'll think of something, something that I need that's in a file in my office or something, and then I'll realize, oh, God, no, it's gone. It's burned up. It's gone forever. And that just happened to me a few days ago. I love a good cartoon, a good magazine style, one panel cartoon. I actually think cartoons are like poetry in a way. Poetry is the most distilled form of literature. The poet has the incredible ability to choose the right words and only the right words in just the right order for a poem. And in the same way a cartoon can almost magically, in just a drawing and a caption, paint a comic picture that. That has all the elements, surprise, cleverness, wit, and sometimes even real profundity. But first, they're funny. God, I love cartoons so much that I have. Well, I had a file in my office of cartoons and now, of course, they're gone. These are not necessarily the best cartoons I've ever seen. Those were in books on my shelf. The Conrads, the Gary Larsons, the Linda Berrys, the Roz Chasts, those were just up on the shelf. Gone too. But I can replace books. These were just random comics that had made me laugh, so I'd cut them out of something. Here's one of them. A caveman is showing a stone wheel with a hole in it, maybe the first wheel ever, to another caveman. And the one caveman who appears to have invented the wheel says to the other caveman, what am I going to do with it? I'm going to. Still makes me laugh. That, ladies and gentlemen, is a great cartoon. I mean, yes, it's crude and it's vulgar. My memory is that most of the cartoons in that file are. But I can't tell you how many times I pulled that cartoon out. And it made me laugh every single time. In fact, I'd argue that there's much more to that caveman cartoon than it might seem at first, starting with the stupidity of man. Since it burned up, I've really tried to find the cartoon. I've googled it, I've used AI I just can't find it. Or I couldn't find it. And then just a week ago, I was looking through photos on my phone of the house for insurance purposes, which is so much fun, you guys, dealing with insurance and everything around that. And I was going through 2016, those photos, and for some reason, I had snapped a photo of this caveman cartoon. It's yellowed because I've probably had it for 30 years, but I'm mean, there it was. I was very happy to find the facsimile. It's not the same as having the real thing. Turns out that the cartoonist is Carol Zahn. It's so odd, the things that are precious to us, isn't it? I mean, not being able to put my hands on that little file of cartoons is just an agony. But that agony makes me realize more now than before the fire, actually, maybe more lastingly, how much laughing matters. To me, it's just everything, especially a deep, great cartoon laugh. There's nothing quite like it. So how happy I am, then, that our Wiser Than Me guest today is the great Roz Chast. I'm Julia Louis Dreyfus, and this is Wiser Than Me, the podcast where I get schooled by women who are wiser than me. Few artists have mapped the emotional terrain of modern American life in quite the way Roz Chast has. Roz has been a contributing cartoonist with the New Yorker since 1978. That's nearly 50 years of nervous characters, apartments packed with way too many lamps, and families on the edge of total collapse. In addition to New Yorker cartoons, Roz has written some of the funniest, most painfully honest work about the things no one really wants to talk about. Death, aging, and the daily pain of just being alive. She's taken what could easily be grotesque, dysfunctional moments in life and somehow flipped them into stories that feel intimate and truthful and funny. And that, my friends, is a big trick. And it's a very excellent trick. She's written children's books with Steve Martin. She's illustrated essays and published collections like Going Into Town and what I Hate From A to Z, each one expanding her peculiar kind of genius. Truth is, she's just entirely thrown out every cartoon convention. Her memoir, Can't We Talk About Something More Pleasant? Just killed me. It really did. I absolutely loved it, and I can't recommend it highly enough. It's hilarious and it's heartbreaking, which is why it's won basically every award a book can win. The Kirkus Prize, National Book Critics Circle Award, National Book Award finalist, and in 2024, President Biden gave her the National Humanities Medal, for God's sakes. What is so striking to is that Roz can tell an incredibly personal story and make it comical without ever trivializing the subject matter. Her work reminds you of your own life, the difficulties of being a person or her very source material, and somehow her way of drawing it, writing it, naming it. It's soothing. It's like a salve on a wound. When her mother suddenly regains her appetite. Close to her death, Roz wrote Where in the Five Is Eat Tuna Sandwich, Please welcome a mother, a grandmother, and a woman who's been married forever to A lovely man who, by all accounts, can decorate the hell out of a house on Halloween. Please welcome the brilliant Bewildered. A complete original and truly so much wiser than me, Roz Chast.

[Roz Chast]

Hi, Julia.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

How are you?

[Roz Chast]

I'm good. I'm good. I. I am such an admirer of you and your work, and I feel.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, my God, I can't believe you're saying that. I feel the same about you. I'm Goo Goo Gaga to meet you.

[Roz Chast]

I'm so excited. Well, me too. Me too. I'm like, ah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You know, I'm, like, feeling the same. I have been an admirer of yours from afar. Forever, it feels like forever. I just have followed you. I read all your cartoons. Every time your cartoon comes up, I'm fangirling out. But it's the truth.

[Roz Chast]

Well, it's totally, totally mutual here. I mean, Seinfeld, you were my character. I mean, I just loved it. I loved so much about that character. I loved that it was a girl whose friendships with, like, guys. Like, kind of oddball guys, but very, very funny. And I don't know, I never felt like there's a lot of shows. I feel like on tv, that the way that the person acts as a sort of female character, I can't relate to it at all.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It's just.

[Roz Chast]

I don't know. I don't know what it is. But, Elaine, I definitely got.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, that's the highest compliment, and I'm very happy for it. So, anyway, are you comfortable if I ask your real age?

[Roz Chast]

Yes.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And how old are you?

[Roz Chast]

I am now 70. Wow. I know, I know. That was a kind of a. Yeah, a biggie. A biggie.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

How old do you feel, Roz?

[Roz Chast]

Ah, I don't. I don't know. Somewhere probably less than that. But I don't know. I mean, because 70 is. It's so abstract in a way, you know, to say, well, what does 70 feel like? Well, I don't know. I haven't been 70 before, so. And everybody is so different, you know, the way they age. So I don't know. I don't know.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

What do you think is the best part about being your age right now, if you could identify it?

[Roz Chast]

I think that every moment that I'm not in pain or that somebody I love is not in pain or that I'm not dealing with some crisis just feels like, whoa, fantastic. Whoa, that rocks. You know, like, I. It just. And you just become more aware as you get older. It's like you're walking through, like, an asteroid field, except the asteroids Just get like more numerous and maybe closer to.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Your ear as they whiz by.

[Roz Chast]

Yeah, exactly. And you see like friends get hit by them and.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh shit.

[Roz Chast]

Yeah, you know, and it just sucks. It's really stupid. It's really completely idiotic. But you know, what choice do we have?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, you carry on.

[Roz Chast]

You carry on. Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So talking about your work, the thing that I just admire and my jaw drops at is how you have successfully cultivated your own sort of inner anxiety into something that is joyful. And do you perceive it like that? Do you think about it like that? Probably not. I don't know.

[Roz Chast]

I don't know. I feel like there's some relationship for me between anxiety and hilarity.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, for sure.

[Roz Chast]

But I'm not quite sure what it is. Cause it's not usually at the same time. There's like some time gap. It's like maybe it's that everything seems to alternate between like hilarity and anxiety and hilarity and anxiety. And there are funny things, you know, that happen sometimes even when you have something that's making you very, very nervous. I mean, I've had laughing attacks when I'm on stage supposing to be talking about something really serious or something and then suddenly like I can't, I start thinking about something and I can't stop laughing.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Uh huh. That's the best kind of laughter and the worst kind of laughter. When you're not supposed to laugh. Oh my God, yes, totally. I mean, it's like you're on a drug or something.

[Roz Chast]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And you can't stop and you can't stop.

[Roz Chast]

Yeah. And it gets the worse and worse.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And you know, you're getting in trouble or I remember I had, when I was in high school, I was in this, they called it Glee Club. And we had to sing some horrible song about. About raising kids. It was like, turn around and you're one, turn around and you're two. Or you know, some horrible song. And I became, during the concert, I became hysterical laughing and I had to put the thing up over my face. The music up over my face. I got in so much trouble with such a stupid song.

[Roz Chast]

Oh yeah. I mean that used to happen to me. There were words when I was a kid, the word pimple made me laugh like a crazy person. And it wasn't like it came up every 10 seconds or anything. But if for some reason it came up, it would just make me laugh and laugh and laugh.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Have you used the word in your cartoons ever?

[Roz Chast]

I have not. I did do a Cartoon about mosquito bites and naming them because, you know, I guess I'm so boring. I'm allergic to them. So they tend to last a long time. And you can get sort of nostalgic. It's like, oh, there's, you know, Sheila. I remember when Sheila. When I got Sheila. And I can still see, like, the scar. And she's going away. I'll miss her.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But, you know, RIP Sheila.

[Roz Chast]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Incredible. And what kind of child were you like? And can you sort of walk us through, you know, whatever? Nine, ten year old. Roz, what were you like?

[Roz Chast]

I just fucking hated being a kid. Just really hated it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Roz Chast]

You know, I was a weirdo. I was, you know, an only kid. My parents were super overprotective to the point where they made me feel like, you know, you really shouldn't. You know, kids carried diseases. They were dirty. They spoke with Brooklyn accents that, you know, somebody had bad posture and I shouldn't play with them. They were bad influences. They were smarter than me. They were more sophisticated. So they could take advantage of me. You know, this is mostly my mother, not my father. My father, I think, felt sorry for me, but he was afraid of her, too. I think she was trying to keep me safe.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right. Because they had lost a child before you.

[Roz Chast]

Exactly. And they didn't want that to happen, so.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Roz Chast]

Yeah. And I really had no idea how to play with other kids. I was really hated it. Just hated it. Waiting to grow up.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I was actually like that myself, too. I didn't have those same kind of anxieties, but I couldn't wait to get older. I couldn't wait to get older. You know, some people love being children. They loved it. And I was not one of those people.

[Roz Chast]

Yeah. I have friends who loved being a kid, and they tell me about their adventures and things they did, and they got into trouble and they did this, and it was like, I never did any of those things. I was not allowed. It was not fun. It was not interesting. I hated school. I was really waiting to grow up.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. Well, I'm so glad we're talking about this because there's a cartoon of yours that I love. It's you as a child, lying in bed, surrounded by books. Can you tell us about this cartoon?

[Roz Chast]

Sure. This is a cartoon that I did. I can't remember what it was. It was for a magazine that asked me to submit a photograph of myself as a child. And for some reason I said, is it okay if I do a drawing? And they said, fine. So I am nine years Old. I'm on my bed, I have a plate of. Looks like a couple of Oreos or something. And I'm surrounded by books with titles like everything you always wanted to know about scurvy, but we're afraid to ask. Diseases of the Tropics, A child's Garden of Maladies. Lockjaw Monthly. I was really afraid of lockjaw and gangrene. I had a lot of hypochondria issues. The Big Book of horrible rare Diseases. And the main book is something that was a book of my childhood that I think forever changed me, which was the Merck Manual, which we had in our house because my mother's sister, my aunt, was a registered nurse and she would give outdated copies of the Merck Manual to my mother, who loved to read them.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But what is the Merck Manual? Cause lots of people don't know what that is.

[Roz Chast]

Okay. The Merck Manual is basically for doctors and it lists every single disease and how to treat it and symptoms and the suggestions for treating the disease with the different dosages of drugs and stuff. That was way over my head. But I was not stupid. I knew what symptoms and signs were. I knew I had leprosy more times than you could count. You know, I have a 24 hour leprosy. Many, many, many times.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Were these things that all lived in your head or did you? Yes. You didn't articulate them to your parents?

[Roz Chast]

I would try. I would try, but there was just no, you know, my mother would say, you know, she. The typical kind of thing. She would say, you know, you're depressed, you have a roof over your head. You know, what are you complaining about? Because, you know, they were first generation Americans. They grew up incredibly poor, both of them.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Roz Chast]

Their parents didn't speak any English. So to them I was like, you know, the Queen of Sheba. What was I complaining about?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So how have you managed that childhood anxiety as you've gotten older? Has it popped out in other ways? Have you been able to wrestle it down?

[Roz Chast]

I guess in some ways I ignore it. I mean, I don't go. I don't cope with it very well, let's put it that way. I mean, ignore it as in, like, I don't go to the doctor. I have. I still have a lot of health paranoia, even though most of the time I feel pretty good. Knock on wood.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, I'm knocking on wood because I'm superstitious.

[Roz Chast]

Yeah, me too. We have to do that thing. I don't know if your grandmother ever did the thing where they blow away the evil spirits, the.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, no, but that's a good one.

[Roz Chast]

They do that. Yeah. They went over people's shoulders.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, I see.

[Roz Chast]

Yeah. Like if you were standing right in front of me, I'd go left, right, and left, right, left, right, left or right, left, right. And then, you know, you're dispersing the evil eye.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

All right. You do that at the same time. You knock wood.

[Roz Chast]

You could do either, you could do both. You could add the salt, you know, depending on, you know, how bad it is. But no, I don't cope well with the health thing at all. And I try to repress it and just not deal with it. And I think, you know, most of the cartoonists I know tend to be sort of anxious people.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. It's time to take a quick break. My conversation with Raz Chas continues in just a moment. And by the way, we just launched a Wiser Than Me newsletter where you can get behind the scenes details from my conversation with Ras Chasm and more. You can subscribe at wiser than me.substack.com you'll get photos and videos and letters from me occasionally. Think exclusive bonus snippets, glimpses behind the scenes of the making of the podcast, a deeper dive into every guest, plus a place to connect with other Wiser Than Me listeners. I hope you [e-mail] and stick around to see what we have in store. Be right back. Whether you're calling the wise women in your life video, calling your girlfriends across the country, or checking in on someone who always knows how to make you smile, staying connected matters. Those small conversations, shared laughs and quick hellos are what keep relationships strong, even when life gets busy. Some of the most life giving conversations start with just a phone call. That's why AT&T has connectivity you depend on guaranteed. Or they'll proactively make it right so you can focus on the moments and people that matter Most. That's the AT&T guarantee. AT&T connecting changes everything. Terms and conditions apply. Visit att.comguarantee for details. Hey prime members, did you know you can listen to Wiser Than Me ad free on Amazon Music? Download the Amazon Music app today to start listening ad free. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. When the days get shorter, things can get a little heavier. You may start leaving work in the dark, canceling plans because it's too cold to change out of sweatpants. It's a tough season for a lot of people, but there's no reason shorter days have to be so dismal. Reach out and check in with those you care about. Call your aunt who loves to chat. Text that friend who always checks on everyone else. 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Our listeners get 10% off their first [e-mail] wiser that's betterhelp.com wiser okay, I'm not going to talk about food waste this time. Promise. I'm going to talk about food resources. All that uneaten food that's lazing around the landfill, tooting out greenhouse gases. It could be put to work enriching our soil or feeding our chickens. It's a valuable resource because it's still food. And the easiest and frankly way coolest way to put all its nutrients to work is with the mill food recycler. Okay, it looks like an art house garbage can. You can just toss your scraps in it like a garbage can. It's definitely not a garbage can. True. I'm a little bit obsessed. I actually even invested in this thing. But I'm not alone. Any mill owner just might corner you at a party and rhapsodize about how it's completely odorless and fully automated and how you can keep filling it for weeks. No joke. But the clincher is that you can depend on it for years. Mill is a serious machine. 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[Roz Chast]

I think I started to realize it when I was around 10 or 11. I have this very clear memory of playing with a girl who lived in my building. And you know, because you have building friends.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Roz Chast]

Who live in your building. And I wanted to, I guess I was like 10 or 11 and I wanted to start a club called Against Mothers called am.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And.

[Roz Chast]

She was like just baffled by it, you know, she didn't want to do it. And I remember like sort of taking that knowledge in and thinking, oh. Cause you know when you're a kid you think, oh I hate my mother. Everybody must hate their mother.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Sure. Cause that was your universe.

[Roz Chast]

That felt like the norm.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Roz Chast]

You know, she was just fucking mean.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Roz Chast]

So much of the time she was mean.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Uh huh.

[Roz Chast]

And I think she was tired, she worked really hard and she just didn't want to deal.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Roz Chast]

And I think also, you know, as I got older, you know, I think that losing that first baby really did her in.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Sure. You know, understandably so.

[Roz Chast]

So I don't know, maybe that's a misreading. Of the situation.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I don't think that's. It doesn't sound like a misreading to me. It's like the trauma was the fuel that sort of kept her in place. In a weird way, as a mom, this trauma just was the driver.

[Roz Chast]

Yeah. I think it really kind of ruined a lot more than. Well, certainly more than I was aware of when I was a kid, because I didn't even know until I was 12.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, how did that come up?

[Roz Chast]

I was in the garage of. My mother was the driver in our house. My father was too anxious to drive. So we were like leaving the garage. I'm sitting in the back seat and I asked my mother, tell me something about yourself you've never told me before.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh.

[Roz Chast]

And she told me and it was like, well, that's something I didn't expect.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Wow.

[Roz Chast]

So she'd been carrying that, you know, herself, and.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And when she told you, Roz, did she tell you in a matter of fact way, Was she emotional telling you about it?

[Roz Chast]

I don't exactly remember she would get emotional, but at the time she told me, I don't remember her being particularly emotional. I remember it just being like, well, yikes.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. Were your parents. I don't think your mom was funny. Was your dad funny?

[Roz Chast]

Not intentionally. He was extremely anxious and sometimes his anxiety was funny to me in the moment. In the moment. Oh, yeah. And they were funny to me in a weird way, even though they didn't intend to be.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Like.

[Roz Chast]

Like they would have these crazy fights and I don't know, they were just so. Maybe they were just very typical for, like children of immigrant first generation American people, I think, in a lot of ways. But they would just have these arguments and fights and, you know, about how many olives my father should eat. And, you know, like, he would want five olives. And she'd say, george, crazy. And then he'd say, okay, I won't have any olives. And then she'd say, no, you should have olives. And you know, or like he'd be sitting on the chair in like this way, like that she didn't like. And she'd say, george, sit straight. You're twisting your kishkas. You know, and kishkas being intestines where people don't know and, you know, just like these insane sort of discussions and. But they were funny in this way that was very old fashioned. They told jokes. Oh, my mother did. Not my father, but my mother would tell, you know, and all of their friends, you know, they told those kind of Herman goes To the doctor. La, la, la.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Punchline. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. And I know your dad carried around that New Yorker cartoon. Or actually, was it a New Yorker cartoon or.

[Roz Chast]

No, it was from the Saturday Review, but it was about New Yorker cartoons.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Tell what it was.

[Roz Chast]

It was. I don't know who did the cartoon, but it was somebody at their shrinks lying on the couch. Typical shrink cartoon setup. And they were. The caption was the patient telling the shrink, I feel inferior because I don't understand the cartoons in the New Yorker. So my father loved this cartoon. He carried it around.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

My dad passed away, I don't know, 10 years ago or something now. And he used to just go on and on about other people I was working with, about how good they were.

[Roz Chast]

Yes, yes, yes. And my father would ask me sometimes, like, very strange questions, like, what sort of fellow is he'd name some cartoonist that I didn't really know that well, and I think he's nice. I don't know. Why are you asking? I don't know.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, yeah.

[Roz Chast]

Strange.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That's so funny. And how does it work at the New Yorker? Like, are you on staff? Can you just talk us through the actual process of all of that and what your role is in it?

[Roz Chast]

I am under contract, so in some ways it's staff, but also, there's no guarantee of anything, and I don't make a salary, so it's also sort of freelance.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Geez.

[Roz Chast]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So you mean so they only pay you when they take your cartoons?

[Roz Chast]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Wow.

[Roz Chast]

Exactly. Exactly. There's probably about 40 or 50 people, maybe more, who submit regularly. And by regularly, I mean, like, submitting every week.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Is that you? Every week?

[Roz Chast]

Yes, yes, every week. And you don't submit one cartoon. You submit a group, which, since I started, has been called the batch. And so if you're talking to some cartoonist, it's like, did you send in your batch yet? How's the batch going? The batch? The batch, yeah. So I usually aim for, like, six or seven cartoons. And, you know, let's say there's 50 people under contract. And just to make the math easy, let's say 10 cartoons. It's 500 cartoons. And then another, like, at least thousand, maybe more, come in over the transom.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Wow.

[Roz Chast]

And they only buy between 10 and 20 a week. So it's from 1500 cartoons to 10 to 20 a week. Which is why if somebody says, you know, my niece or nephew or my kid, they want to be a cartoonist, you know what? Do you have any advice? I always say if they can do Something else they should do that they should do. Another thing, you know, don't do this. This is really. When you don't have anything else that you can do, you know, this is what you do.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Do you have anything else you can do?

[Roz Chast]

No, no, no, nothing. Nothing.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I mean, you've been doing this since what, 78, right? Yeah, 1978. Okay. So what have you learned?

[Roz Chast]

I guess I've learned that maybe I'd rather do this than not do this.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, I hear you.

[Roz Chast]

And the thing about art, one thing that's really good is that unlike being an athlete or a dancer, you can continue. Yeah, there's. It's not like.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Roz Chast]

Yeah. I mean, you can just kind of keep making work. And I do find that working. Knock on again. Would. There's always, always new stuff. Yeah, there's always new stuff to learn and always, you know, new inspiration and new ideas and things to get excited about. And I mean, that is life for me. Yeah. I mean, do you, do you. This is, I have to say before, this is like just jumping a little bit here.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But yeah, sure. Who cares?

[Roz Chast]

The last fuckable day is one of the most brilliant things I have ever seen. Every line is so hilarious. It's so great.

[Judith Bowles]

And.

[Roz Chast]

And is it you that goes off at the end with a cigar?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Roz Chast]

Or no? No. Yes, it is.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It's me. I go off in the canoe.

[Roz Chast]

In the canoe. Yes, yes. Every bit of that is just the greatest. How did that come about?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, that came about because, let's see, it was for Amy Schumer, it was for her show, and Nicole Holofzenter, who's a writer director with whom I've worked.

[Roz Chast]

That's great.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, well, she directed that particular sket. So she called me and she said, doing this, does this appeal to you? And I'm like, I mean, the title alone and the concept was like brilliant. And So I said 100%. And so we went off into some woods somewhere and we shot it. It was really fun too. Cause we got to improvise and play with it.

[Roz Chast]

And the baby lamb that like, I don't remember, it was Tina Fey saying like some 80 year old guy married, not just somebody who's 20, somebody who was 24 years younger. And it was actually a baby lamb. And oh, I died. That was just so. So. And everybody's. Aw. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I'm not even mad. It's like so stupid.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It's so stupid. I think that's the key is that the reason that that really did work is because people Weren't mad about.

[Roz Chast]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

We were just, in a weird way, almost delighted.

[Roz Chast]

Yes. It's like, good, now you're not pestering me anymore. Now you're not, like, with your just. It just every note it hit was just great. It's like, thank God nobody's asking me to walk around with my tits out to here and like, look, here comes. Here comes the sex bomb, you know.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Here comes Titty McGee.

[Roz Chast]

Yeah, here comes Tiddy McGee. I know, I know. Who wants that? And then you see these, like, you know, 75, 80 year old, like, people who are still, like, being Titty McGee and you just think, what are you doing? Like, I don't know. I don't know. It just cracks me up. But like, if it makes you happy, then go ahead. Yeah, go ahead.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I know. Oh, I'm so happy you like that. I really, I really am. Do you ever say no to projects? Do you, like, have people come to you and said, I don't know what it would be, but it's like, it doesn't appeal to you. It's like, gross or I don't know what it would be.

[Roz Chast]

I probably should have said no to more projects than I have.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No.

[Roz Chast]

Well, I asked like, I'm such a prostitute. It's like, well, what's your budget? You know? You want me to do a commercial for, like, tinfoil?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You know, you would be great in a commercial for tinfoil. I got news for you. I will buy so much tinfoil if you are hocking tinfoil.

[Roz Chast]

Oh, I would love to. It's like all the things you can do. You can just like, quit your job and make one of those tinfoil balls just like, and then open up like a store where you sell them. The tin foil ball store. And then you could, like, do like, different things. You could make like, like cubes and pyramids and it's like, that's your life. It's just now tinfoil crafts.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I am here to tell you that you have got this gig wrapped up.

[Roz Chast]

I know. I'm like, waiting now. Like, maybe Alcoa or whatever the company is.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Reynolds Wrap.

[Roz Chast]

Reynolds Rapp will call me up after this and say we never thought about that. Like an Etsy adjacent craft adjacent tin.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Totally. I'm Roz Chass with Reynolds Wrap.

[Roz Chast]

Come on over.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Good. We're gonna make it.

[Roz Chast]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And tinfoil balls. We can turn it into a necklace.

[Roz Chast]

Yes, exactly.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Exactly. Oh, my God, it's hilarious. Okay, we need to take another break here. More with Roz Chass right after. As we wind down now is a great time to reach out to someone that's been on your mind. Because those little check ins, they're the moments that matter. It's the I saw this and thought of you text or the impromptu call to a friend when you're running errands or walking your dog. Those small I see you moments that tie us together. Sometimes the smallest check in can become the biggest highlight of someone's day. So this week, don't just think about your people. Reach out to them. Send that text, make that call. Because community isn't just something we have, it's something we make. And AT and T is here to keep you connected. For all of it, staying connected matters. That's why in the rare event of a network outage, AT&T will proactively credit you for a full day of service. That's the AT&T guarantee. Credit for fiber downtime lasting 20 minutes or more or for wireless downtime lasting 60 minutes or more caused by a single incident impacting 10 or more towers must be connected to impacted tower at onset of outage. Restrictions and exclusions apply. AT&T connecting changes everything. Terms and conditions apply. Visit att.comguarantee for details. So here's a question. Who cares? Really? Who cares about hunger or clean water or girls trying to get an education in the middle of a conflict zone? Who notices families struggling to rebuild after disaster or communities just trying to survive? As a listener of this podcast, chances are you do. And so does CARE, the global humanitarian organization that works in over 100 countries with a special focus on women and girls. Like in Syria, when an earthquake destroyed Heba's farm. As a single mother, she refused to give up. With CARE's support, Heba rebuilt her farm, learned new skills, and was once again able to support her family. CARE tackles the toughest challenges. Restoring clean water, delivering life, saving medical supplies, keeping girls in school, feeding families during famine, and helping entire communities rebuild after disaster. They don't just talk about making a difference. They make a difference every day in some of the most challenging places on earth. But CARE can't do it without you. Help provide life saving CARE around the world. Donate [e-mail] wiser from morning walks to bedtime cuddles, dogs shape the rhythm of family life. They give us their best every day. It's only fair we return the favor with food that shows how much we care. Ollie is it? They offer fresh, protein packed meals that are made with real human grade ingredients. They have five great recipes, all slow cooked for optimal nutrition. These are meals backed by vet nutritionists and crafted with culinary experts for a meal that's just as nice as the food you sneak your dog under the table. 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The air's crisp, the holidays are creeping closer and before the to do lists really take over, it's n to slow down, go for that long walk, hit the pumpkin patch, savor the calm before the chaos. Quince has you covered with cozy layers that look timeless, feel luxurious and make holiday dressing and gifting a low lift. They have these incredibly soft $50 Mongolian cashmere sweaters made for everyday wear, denim silhouettes that never go out of style, silk tops and skirts that add polish and down outerwear built to take on the season. Oh, and their Italian wool coats. The cuts feel delic designer and the quality rivals high end brands, but without the high end markup, every single thing on their website feels curated and so thoughtful. They really are such a special brand. By working directly with ethical top tier factories, Quince skips the middlemen and offers prices 50% less than similar brands. Step into the holiday season with layers made to feel good, look polished and last from Quince, perfect for gifting or keeping for yourself. Go to quince.com wiser for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U I N C E.com wiser to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com wiser so you've been married for how long?

[Roz Chast]

We married in 84. So whoa. 40.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

What year is it? 25.

[Roz Chast]

41 years? 40 I don't. Something like that?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, yeah, something like that. So what was your courtship like?

[Roz Chast]

Well, our first date was Eraserhead.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, really?

[Roz Chast]

Yeah. Midnight show at the Elgins, so, yeah. Oh, wow.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Did you like him right away?

[Roz Chast]

Yeah, I did, I did. I actually thought that he was too normal and too cute for me, and I thought so. That's always a good story.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So you had lived in New York your whole life, and then after you had your second child, you moved to Connecticut. And I know that was a very rough transition, Right? Leaving the city.

[Roz Chast]

Well, yes and no. I have what a friend of mine calls a pomme de terre in the city, which I got 11 years ago, and I'm in the city a lot. I'd say three out of five weeks, I'm in for a few days.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, I see.

[Roz Chast]

Because, I mean, I really, I think the hardest thing about moving out of the city was the driving. Well, one of the hardest because I didn't learn how to drive until we moved out of the city. And I really hate it. I really do not like cars. I don't like driving. I don't like putting gas in my car. I don't like the noises it makes. I have, like, car hypochondria, you know, where it's just like, what is that smell? What is that sound? What is that? Is it supposed to be doing that?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And yes. What kind of car do you drive, may I ask?

[Roz Chast]

It's a subaru Forester from 2008. And I vaguely like it because I sort of know how to turn it on. And I know it's like, weird things and I'm afraid of, like, new cars. I don't like the button cars.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, yeah, the button cars are tough. That's a big transition.

[Roz Chast]

I hate, hate. I will not do that. I will not do, do that.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Because you live in fear of not turning it off, for starters.

[Roz Chast]

That's.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That's it.

[Roz Chast]

And, and even people who are like, oh, what are you afraid of with a button? It's so easy. They sometimes like, oh, I forgot it. Is it on or off? They're not sure. And that's, like, really creepy to me. I just don't like it. I don't like anything about it. I, I, it's. Yeah. So being in the city is like, you don't have to drive. You can, you can go anywhere.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So you do everything you can to avoid driving. Like, would you have somebody else? Yeah, okay.

[Roz Chast]

Got it. Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And then you became a parent in the suburbs. Yes.

[Roz Chast]

Ay, yai. Yai, yai, yai.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And so talk about that. I love the story you told about somebody giving you. You were at a parent something or other, and they gave you ice to break up.

[Roz Chast]

Oh, yeah. That was awful. You know, there's a lot of people who have. Somehow they know how to do everything like this. And I was at one of those horrible field days, you know, they have.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Where the kids and the parents are all playing outside.

[Roz Chast]

Yes. And somebody gave me this giant bag of ice to break up, and I had no idea how to do this. And she just like, sort of took it away from me and like, dropped it a few times on the ground and, you know, sort of wordlessly, but just disgusted, you know.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

With you.

[Roz Chast]

With me? Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

When you told that story, I thought, I have to tell you this story, which is I was at my kid's school and it was like Pilgrim Day or something. And I know already you're unhappy. And some mother had made a bunch of cookies in the shape of, I don't know, colonial things.

[Roz Chast]

I'm not sure I can picture the house. Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And the kids were gonna decorate em, and I was sort of bringing them over to the kid table and I dropped like a plate and a few of them, you know, sort of crumbled. And she looked at me and she goes, try not to break the cookies like that.

[Roz Chast]

Wow.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Wow. Try not to break the cookies.

[Roz Chast]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I was like, oh, yeah, that's such good advice. Yeah.

[Roz Chast]

Yeah. Cause I was really planning on going through them one by one. I wasn't before, but now I will. Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Tell me about. Right.

[Roz Chast]

Because before, when we were living in Brooklyn, I remember I was in a playgroup and the other mothers did other things, you know, they were like. They had other jobs besides being a mom. But when we first came out here, it was like Planet Eisenhower, you know, it was just fascinating. You know, by the time somebody was 35, they had like three kids and maybe like a kid who was like 12, you know, it was a different thing. And their husbands had like corporate jobs and their excitement was like redoing their house or redoing their kitchen or having a pool put in or gardening or. But it was weird, you know, being a freelance person, I tried. I would sometimes be a class mom or.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Roz Chast]

Did you ever do that?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Like, yes, I did. I was a class mom for the, like where I would organize the kids to make sort of a group art project and then it would get wrapped and so we did some kind of neat things. It was fun to that. I kind of liked and there was always this tension between mothers who are always available for school, always available. And then people like me who I was not always available. And then I felt unbelievably anxious and guilty about that.

[Roz Chast]

Yeah, same, same.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

How did you get through that? And did you find a person or, or anybody that you could. You did?

[Roz Chast]

I did. I had a very good friend who actually I just saw. She came over on Halloween, so we're still friends, but she's a painter. And the people. Shockeroo of shocks. The people that I became friends with were generally artists. So, you know, they were people who had like, other pulls on their time and their attention and. Because, you know, I think when you're a mom, there is this kind of weird part of you that's maybe something in society that just says, you give up everything, you're a mother, you must drop everything and just be a mom. And if you're not that, then there's something wrong with you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I mean, I know you talk about you parented your first child one way and your second child a different way, right?

[Roz Chast]

Yeah, I did. I did. Because when I only knew two modes, which were screaming and hitting, which I was not either of those things, and being a doormat, and I was more of a doormat and passive, and that didn't work either. And I learned a lot from a couple of very good parenting books I tried. I'm not a self book reader ever, but I had a sort of like crisis moment with my older kid in a grocery store when he was around five, where usually I was so anxious about. My husband was very laid back. You know, he's one of three kids from the Midwest and just a much more sort of laid back sort of person. And he got along very well with my son because he would let him do things like climb up really high in a tree because he, he felt confident that if he fell he could catch him, whereas I didn't. You know, so he could go to the park with him and my son could do all these kind of crazy stunts that I would not let him because I would just be seeing like ambulances and blood and, you know, horrible things, bones sticking out from skin and, you know, death, death. Anyway, we were in the. In the grocery store and I decide I am not going to be my usual, don't do this, don't do that self. I'm going to be more like my husband, more laid back and sure, you want to spray. Remember, like, there used to be like vegetable sprayers with water and it'd be like A hose.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, yeah.

[Roz Chast]

You know, and I'm gonna let him do that, you know. Sure, you can do that. I'm gonna let you, like, pick up products. I'm gonna. And at the end of the day, at the end of this trip, I'm, like, sweating bullets, you know, it's just like, I'm keeping all of my anxieties, all of my.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Sure.

[Roz Chast]

This is fun. This is really great. Look, it's fun. He did something. He started swinging the cart, and he let go of the cart, and it went into this whole thing of, like, glass jars. There's glass everywhere. There's glass and sauce. And it was a huge disaster. And it wasn't like one glass. It was like many, many, many, many jars. And it was so bad.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Your fever anxiety dream came true.

[Roz Chast]

Oh, yeah. We left the car. I said to my son, I said, I'm so angry, I cannot even speak. And we went home, and he ran upstairs. And I was telling my husband about this, and I was alternating. I was crying and laughing like snot, just pouring, you know? Cause it was funny, but it was so horrible. And I was so angry and so upset because I had gone against my instinct of, like, trying to control. And the next day, I went to the library, and I took out a bunch of books, you know, all. Everything that I could find about how to do this. And I found two really good books.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Which books I'm so curious to know.

[Roz Chast]

One was called how to Talk so youo Kids Will Listen and How to Listen so youo Kids Will Talk, which I just thought was so good.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Wonderful book.

[Roz Chast]

Wonderful book. And it was something that I had, that book. It was just so good.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And what was the other one?

[Roz Chast]

Stop struggling with your child, it was called. And they were both very similar in that it was some. It was a third path. It was not being a doormat, but also not screaming and hitting and yelling and just losing a third path.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

A third path.

[Roz Chast]

And some of it was just about good things to remember when you're bringing up kids. Like, don't blame, but you can describe, like, the wet towel is on the bed. Not like, why are you so lazy? You've left the towel. You always do this. Not like accusing and starting a fight. And if they don't get it, you pull. And if they go. So you bring them back. You point. You can say it, like, really direct. The wet towel is on the bed. And they put it together. The jackets on the floor.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Floor.

[Roz Chast]

Your jacket is on the floor, you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Know, And I. I need you to come to my House. I need you to come to my house.

[Roz Chast]

It was great. It was so good. And it really helped. It helped a lot.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So it's funny because I had. I still have a lot of anxiety as a mom and I love being a mom, of course, but I don't know how I would characterize my anxiety except. Except to say that I am always trying to keep it at bay.

[Roz Chast]

Yes, yes. Same.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Which takes a lot of energy. Can we just say that maybe it's just.

[Roz Chast]

I don't know whether it's encoded genetically, you know, for me having very anxious parents and, you know, I don't know if there's anything I can really do about it. It does seem like this is part of it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

How are you even pregnant as being. I mean, were you a basket case.

[Roz Chast]

When you were a. Yes, I was a basket case. And I do think that my body must have secreted some sort of anti anxiety hormone to kind of. Because right now when I think about it, it's like, how did I do that? Like, that's so horrible, the idea of a person inside of you. I much preferred labor to being prepared pregnant, you know, because at least that was like, you're getting it out, I'm getting it out. There's doctors, something goes wrong, something, whatever. But pregnancy, it's like there's a whole person.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It's just.

[Roz Chast]

It's the horrible thing. You're growing a person. It's disgusting. There's like eyeballs. There's like another set of eyeballs inside of me. I don't like that. But, you know, so that's why I think there must have been like some sort of weird, like. Calm down, Roz. Hormone sort of being.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I'm sure. I'm sure that that is actually the case when you, you know, your hormones are all going so crazy when you get. When you're pregnant anyway that there was probably something that. It got you through it. You did it. You did it twice.

[Roz Chast]

To me, it's like a miracle to have a relationship with my kids that I did not have with my mother. So I am grateful to them every day.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Roz Chast]

That they've allowed that.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. And you've obviously done something to cultivate that so that you do have a relationship. I mean, for example, you went and you got the parenting books. I mean, you worked at it.

[Roz Chast]

Yeah. Yeah. I did not assume that I knew everything because I knew I didn't, you know, and I think that was different from. I don't know if they had that when my parents were. Had me. I mean, there was Dr. Spock.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But there was Dr. Spock. But I think that even when I was growing up, I think that parenting wasn't yet a verb.

[Roz Chast]

I think you're right.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I think that happened in my generation as a parent and in your generation when you were a parent.

[Roz Chast]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But I think that that became a verb later.

[Roz Chast]

I think you're right. Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Speaking of parenting as a verb, we have another cartoon of yours that I'd love to talk with you about. It's the cartoon about the sex talk. Oh, my God, does this make me laugh so hard. Can you read this for the listeners? This cartoon?

[Roz Chast]

Yes. This is a heart to heart talk. It's a mother talking to her teenage, young, teenage daughter. And she's saying, in my day, it wasn't like nobody did anything.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Anything.

[Roz Chast]

But certain things you only did with certain people. I'm not talking about certain things. I'm talking about certain other things. Nowadays it seems like people do certain things with people because they think that those things are less intimate than certain other things rather than vice versa. And we know what those things are.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, it's so great.

[Roz Chast]

Certain things.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Certain things. So wonderful. That is a marvelous cartoon. That really made me laugh. Did you have those conversations with your kids?

[Roz Chast]

I think only when forced to, you know, they're kind of. I don't really remember. I think I probably did at some. Or I had with my daughter, who is now actually my son. I have one kid, my younger kid is trans, so I might have had some sort of talk like that with her that went along with the need to use deodorant, that sort of thing.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I had with one of my sons, he was very. He was youngish and he was using the word hump a lot. And I said to him, honey, do you know what that word means? Cause it was inappropriate, right? And I said, you know what that word means? He goes, no. And then I sort of took the opportunity to tell him what humping was and how sex worked. And I told him pretty sort of scientifically, kind of. And I remember we were in the car and he looks at me and he just goes, why did you just tell me that?

[Roz Chast]

You know what? I just suddenly remember when you were describing it, the sex talk I had with my daughter.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Tell me.

[Roz Chast]

Oh, my God. I mean, it was as weird, almost as weird as that. It was because she at the time was in maybe like third grade or something, and some little girl in the class told her that if a boy held your hand, it would put a baby in your tummy. And, and she was very upset about this. So then I thought, okay, I have to tell her, like, about the whole situation. And I just, for those of you who are listening, I just made that, like, horrible, like, junior high, you know, bar mitzvah hand gesture of finger going into hole. Yeah, Finger going into hole. And after I finished describing, like, what things, where things, things went, she looked at me and she said, I feel like I'm dreaming. Swear to God, I feel like I'm dreaming.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And I want to think I'm dreaming.

[Roz Chast]

I feel like I'm dreaming. And I wanted to tell her. Yeah, yeah, it does, kind of. It is like that. Exactly.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That's adorable. That's adorable.

[Roz Chast]

I love that.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Roz Chast]

I feel like I'm dreaming.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

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[Roz Chast]

Oh man, I don't know. I don't know whether it's better to know about it in advance or, you know, because there's aspects of it that are just so awful that maybe it's better not to know. You know, there were things that were very helpful. Like a friend of mine connected me with an elder lawyer and that was an extremely helpful thing because you had.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Trouble talking honestly and openly with your parents about end of life decisions and so on and so forth.

[Roz Chast]

Yeah, yeah. It's just awful and it's weird. I'm kind of, I'm going through it in a much more muted way with my aunt right now, my mother's baby sister who is now 106.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

What the hell?

[Roz Chast]

Yeah, it's crazy. It's crazy. She is, she's outlived both of her kids and of course everybody else, but she is. And she's okay. I mean, she uses a walker and she's hard of hearing, but she's mentally, you know, she says, oh, I'm more, I'm Forgetful and stuff. But she's very much still.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I mean, is she in a home?

[Roz Chast]

She is, yes. Last September. She was living independently until a year ago September. And I got her into an assisted living place nearby and sold her house and, you know, all that stuff.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I'm. I'm amazed that you've had. You had to do that after having to having done this with your parents.

[Roz Chast]

It's different, though. So first of all, she was much more pliable. Pliable. And she had taken care of a lot of things. Like she had a lawyer that I would work with, a lawyer sometimes. My parents never addressed any of this.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I see.

[Roz Chast]

Yes. And I have this card on the refrigerator that has the name of the funeral home. And she wants to be cremated. And this is the company and this is like the numbers. So, yeah, it's different, but it's just. It's so. I don't know, I guess not to be like soapboxy about it, but it's just like one way that I feel like our society just doesn't really give a shit, you know, about, like, if you are. If you don't contribute to the economy, why don't you just fuck off and die? You know, why don't you just be dead right now? Because if you're not making money, if you're not contributing to the economy of this country, you might as well be dead.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. There's really no system in place, you know, other than nothing. Yeah. Other than family. And if you're lucky. If you're lucky, you have means to figure it out.

[Roz Chast]

Right.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But it's an expensive undertaking.

[Roz Chast]

Oh, yeah. I mean, she had a little house in New Jersey, and that is slowly going to happen. Her care right now, I mean, slowly, it's like, you know, 10, $11,000 a month, which is still good compared to a lot of places. I mean, they really know these places. It's almost like a black comedy. They know they have you over a barrel.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. You know, because they do.

[Roz Chast]

Because they do. You know, there's no. They'll just take it all. And with my parents, I mean, it was particularly hilarious in a kind of black comedy way because they were children of the Depression and had grown up so poor and they were so such scrimpers and savers. And they would come up here and my father would say, so what are they charging for Fig Newton's in your area? And, you know, I couldn't tell him. It was like, if they were $22, I'd know. But, like, are they 349? Are they 419? Are they 299? I don't know. But they were such penny pinchers and self deniers and, you know, no, you can't have that. You can't have this, you can't have that, you know, and. And then at the end it all. It all went all. So that was. That was that.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, I think that the. I have to say that if anyone who's listening to this is in that situation, I would recommend reading your book. I mean, I mentioned it in the intro to you, but I think it's a good salve for the kind of wound that is opened up when you have to really, truly take over in terms of caregiving for a loved one. I think your book was very helpful. Did you write that book after?

[Roz Chast]

I mean, my father died in 2007 and my mother died in 2009 and it was published in 2014. But I was starting to get this idea that I think I want to write something about this because it was such. It was all like new information to me.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Roz Chast]

You know, I just had no idea how much a person is on their own dealing with end of life care.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Roz Chast]

How much it's like you and your parents and you're on this little boat and there's nobody around.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. When my dad died and the end of his life was a bit of an agony and then once he was dead, there was sort of a new way to frame him. It was sort of like all of a sudden you knew the whole story of. And I remember speaking like at a service that we had for him and I could sort of talk about him now that he was gone in a way that I couldn't when he was alive, I guess is what I'm trying to say.

[Roz Chast]

Yeah. I think that there is something about that, that you don't see things until they're gone. I don't know where you see it in a different way.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Maybe more fully. Yeah.

[Roz Chast]

And maybe you also understand that you're next and that's, you know, you understand on this sort of really intense level that just gets more and more intense the older you get that this is life sounds like such a cliche, but that's kind of what it is, you know?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. But is it kind of freeing maybe?

[Roz Chast]

Yeah, it is kind of freeing in a way. I guess that's no matter what you do, this is how it ends.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You know, I know your parents. Even though there was funkiness there, they were very close to each other, I guess you would say.

[Roz Chast]

Very, very.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And what was Your takeaway from that in your own marriage?

[Roz Chast]

I think I have a different sort of marriage. My parents were very much each other. Like, they had a blended. Very much of a blended world. They really. As I wrote about in the book, they did everything together. They were never really apart. And, like, the idea of taking a vacation separately from your traveling solo to someplace or traveling with a girlfriend or whatever. Or whatever would never have occurred to them. They barely went to the grocery store separately. They did everything in lockdown. And I don't have that relationship. I sometimes wonder what it would have been like, whether that would be good, but I don't think so. I mean, I don't think so either.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Roz Chast]

Yeah. I think one of the reasons why we've been married a long time is that, you know, he adores Halloween. I'm not so into it. It's not like some crisis that we need to throw $100,000 at a couples counselor about. It's like, you do this, and he's not a big fan of New York. New York is my life. I mean, he's joked that the great love affair of my life is with New York City, which is true. I just love it so, so, so much.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I do, too.

[Roz Chast]

You know, I sometimes feel embarrassingly in love with it. And, like, I want to say, no, I'm not being paid by some, like, tourist association. I just. I enjoy. But he doesn't feel that way, so. And I have an apartment there, and I go there a lot, and it's okay, you know?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, well, I just can't tell you what a delight it is to talk to you, honestly. What a great conversation. Okay, I'm gonna ask you a quick little couple of questions, and then I'll let you go. Okay.

[Roz Chast]

Yep.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So is there something, Roz, in your life that you would like to go back and say yes to?

[Roz Chast]

Yeah. Around 1979 or 80, I was with some friends, and they were going to some club downtown to hear this new singer that was apparently very good, named Madonna. And I said, nah, I'm tired. I'm gonna go home. Bad about that.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Is there something that you wish you'd spent less time on.

[Roz Chast]

Cooking? Even less. Even less than now.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I'm guessing people in your family might laugh at that answer.

[Roz Chast]

Yeah, maybe because they would say, it's not like you spent, like, that much time, Mom. You know, I still remember Rock piece, which was. Do you know those, like, that Pillsbury dough that comes in the thing?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Roz Chast]

Break it open, it goes, bleh.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. You know, is it like a biscuity dough?

[Roz Chast]

Yes, it's a biscuity dough. And it has a certain chemical taste because it's all like.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Cause it's chemicals.

[Roz Chast]

Because it's all chemicals. But somehow, every time I made it, the dough came out very hard. And my kids would call it rock pizza.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So.

[Roz Chast]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. So maybe less time on cooking is a good idea.

[Roz Chast]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And is there something you're looking forward to?

[Roz Chast]

Yeah, Thanksgiving. Oh, that's nice.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. Everybody.

[Roz Chast]

The kids are gonna come where they're partners and their families, and so. Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, that's lovely. I don't really like Thanksgiving food, to be honest with you, but I like being together as a group. Yeah, that's very happy making.

[Judith Bowles]

Yes.

[Roz Chast]

I like the colors. I do like Thanksgiving food, actually. I like that, the way the cranberry sauce looks.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And speaking of colors, I want to just end by telling you one thing. So I have this. I got to get my phone. Hold on. Don't move.

[Roz Chast]

I'm not moving. I'm not moving.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So I went to the farmer's market on the weekend, and I got flowers, because I like to have flowers around. And I was getting ready to talk to you, and I was looking at these flowers, which are zinnias. I had them in a vase, and I thought, you know, this reminds me of Ra's Chaste because it's your colors. Oh.

[Roz Chast]

And.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And even the flowers themselves look like you to me. It looks like flowers you would draw. And so I just wanted to tell you that. That you remind me of zinnias.

[Roz Chast]

Well, thank you. Thank you. I'm taking that as a compliment. I love zinnias.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It is a compliment. Yeah.

[Roz Chast]

Yeah. They're great flowers.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

They're great flowers. They're hearty, and they're very colorful.

[Roz Chast]

Yes.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And I can't tell you how much I've loved talking to you today.

[Roz Chast]

Well, vice versa. This was really a pleasure. This was really fun.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So thank you. Okay. I just have to call my mom. She has been so looking forward to my conversation with Roz since I told her that Roz was coming on the show. So let's get her on the zoom now. Hi, Mommy.

[Judith Bowles]

Hi, love.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Hi, Mother. I spoke with Roz Chast today, and you can only imagine how charming and fantastic she is.

[Judith Bowles]

I, I. I want to marry her.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes, you do. And I want to marry her, too, because that is how wonderful she is. For reals.

[Judith Bowles]

Everything she does is wonderful. I've never did. You know what I mean? She's just everything. And by the way, I read a Memoir of hers I thought I read sometime that she had a baby sister. Sister that they never talked about.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

She had a sister who died before, before she was born. And here's what's so fascinating. So I said, were you aware of the fact as a kid that you had had a sister who died before you were born? And she said, well, I found out when I was 12. And I said, how did you find out? And she said, well, I was in the car with my mom. And I said, tell me something about yourself I don't know yet. And her mother just told her in that moment. Can you believe what I just told you?

[Judith Bowles]

That is incredible.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Can I ask you that question?

[Judith Bowles]

Maybe another time.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay. Yeah, maybe it's not for public consumption.

[Judith Bowles]

Yeah, I was.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

For our listeners, I'll plant a secret recording device and I'll let you know what she says.

[Judith Bowles]

Oh, oh, oh, we'll fool them.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So listen, one thing we talked about was this particular cartoon that I'm going to ask our folks to pull up right now. And I had her read it aloud. Mom. And this is her heart to heart talk.

[Judith Bowles]

Look at the face of the show.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

The mother and the daughter. So this was her, this was the sex talk her mother had with her. Look at the face, look at the face of the, of the girl on the. On the sofa. She's just miserable. So, mom, do you remember, do you remember sex talks that we had growing up? Do you remember any of that?

[Judith Bowles]

Well, I don't. I don't remember that. Did we have many?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No. That's what I was wondering. I think you have yet to tell me how it works.

[Judith Bowles]

Yeah, well, I figured leave you alone you would find out.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, I think that was it that you left us alone and we all found out eventually, I guess.

[Judith Bowles]

Well, I figured that you could tell. You could tell each other and that would be a help. And you had some good friends, so that would. Oh, that was a huge shortcoming of mine. That was. I mean, just in terms of communication because I was. I mean, my parents never mentioned. My mother never mentioned sex to me except to say that oni men liked it. And that was, that was her talk to me. And then I never really had anybody to ask, so I just, you know, talked to my friends and I sort of learned what. Whatever I learned. And Judy a and I would talk about it and we would try to get books about it. And then we would sometimes ask her father because her father would talk to us about sex. But, you know, we asked such funny questions, which was, how long does it Take.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That's a legit question.

[Judith Bowles]

And so he told us 20 minutes. I've always thought 20 minutes.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

20 minutes was the time.

[Judith Bowles]

Here's your watch. 20 minutes is up. Now you've got it. Now you're all finished.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, you know, when I was little and I had my friend Jessica, and somehow we got it in our heads that fucking meant if two people sat on the toilet at the same time and went pee, pee. So we. So she and I, when we had to go pee, would go sit on the toilet together and go pee. I mean, that shows you how tiny we were. That both of our bottoms would sit on. On top of the toilet and we would pee and we would call it that we were.

[Judith Bowles]

Oh, isn't language wonderful?

[Roz Chast]

Yeah, I mean, the whole.

[Judith Bowles]

With the word opened up in you, just whole. That. That's the whole universe there. That, you know, it's just. That's so marvelous.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay. My mommy. Well, so there's.

[Roz Chast]

You go.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That's Ross chest.

[Judith Bowles]

Well, I'm so. It was. It's just a. I'm getting. I'm getting a floating blessing from you for. From her just because. Thank God there are people like that. Isn't it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I know it.

[Roz Chast]

Isn't it the truth?

[Judith Bowles]

Mom, you're. You're featuring somebody like that and it's. It just should be known and known and known.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. Yeah. I feel lucky that today was a lot. Lucky day.

[Judith Bowles]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay. Okay. Love you. Love you, my mom.

[Judith Bowles]

I love you too. And take care. And I will see you soon.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay.

[Judith Bowles]

Okay.

[Roz Chast]

Bye.

[Judith Bowles]

Bye.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

There's more Wiser Than Me With Lemonada Premium, you can now listen to every episode ad free. Plus subscribers also get access to exclusive bonus interview excerpts from each guest. Just tap that subscribe button on Apple podcasts. Head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. That's lemonadapremium.com make sure you're following Wiser Than Me on social media. We're on Instagram and TikTok at wiser than Me and we're on Facebook at Wiser Than Me podcast. We're also on substack at wiser than me.substack.com wiser than me is a production of Lemonade Media, created and hosted by me, Julia Louis Dreyfus. The show is produced by Chrissy Pease and Oja Lopez. Brad hall is a consulting producer. Rachel Neal is consulting senior editor. And our SVP of weekly content and production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Paula Kaplan, Stephanie Whittles, Wax, Jessica Cordova, Kramer and me. The show is mixed by Johnny Vince Evans with engineering help from James Sparber, and our music was written by Henry hall, who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music. Special thanks to Will Schlegel and of course, my mother, Judith Bowles. Follow Wiser than me wherever you get your podcasts. And if there's an old lady in your life, listen up.