Listen Again: Julia Gets Wise with Alice Waters

Summary

Podcast Summary: Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus

Episode: Listen Again: Julia Gets Wise with Alice Waters

Release Date: November 24, 2025
Host: Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Guest: Alice Waters

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Overview & Main Theme

In this episode, Julia Louis-Dreyfus sits down with celebrated chef, activist, and Chez Panisse founder Alice Waters. Their heartfelt conversation explores the transformative power of food, intergenerational wisdom, beauty, loss, and cultivating a life connected to nature and community. Waters reflects on aging, motherhood, grief, and how the hands-on act of cooking grounds us amidst a fast-changing, increasingly technology-driven world.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Family Heritage, Touch, and the Tactile Joy of Cooking

• Julia opens by reading her mother’s poem, "Flash Frozen," which evokes memories of family, food, and the loss of tactile connection in modern life. She links this to her own love for cooking with her sister using homegrown and farmers’ market ingredients.
  Notable Quote:

  "As we speed forward and technology dominates... we touch the things that matter less and less." — Julia Louis-Dreyfus (02:18)

2. The Impact and Vision of Alice Waters

• Julia introduces Alice Waters, detailing her profound influence on American food through farm-to-table cuisine, sustainable agriculture, and the Edible Schoolyard Project, plus her impact on generations of chefs.
  Notable Quote:

  "The truth is, her impact on American cooking is immeasurable. And it doesn't stop in the kitchen." – Julia Louis-Dreyfus (06:40)

3. Thoughts on Age, Inspiration, and Generational Wisdom

• Alice, at 80, doesn’t dwell on numbers, influenced by her great aunt’s longevity and ‘joie de vivre.’ She values presence, communication, and generosity.
  Notable Quote:

  "I really feel like age is about how you feel about yourself." — Alice Waters (08:14)
  "I'm inspired by their joie de vivre... and are so generous with that." — Alice Waters (09:13)

4. Elevating the Everyday: Simplicity & Sensory Engagement

• Alice explains how simple ingredients, like asparagus and prosciutto sandwiches with garlic aioli, become extraordinary when treated with care.
• Discussion of breakfast habits (pu-erh tea and whole grains to lower cholesterol) and the importance of having fresh, good-quality ingredients at home, including fruit and herbs. Notable Quotes:

  "I had high cholesterol... Drink the fermented pu-erh tea... my cholesterol went down 100 points." — Alice Waters (12:16)
  "I always want flowers in my house, and of the moment in time." — Alice Waters (16:39)

5. Sense Engagement & Connection with Nature

• Alice and Julia share how flowers and gardening—linked to real time and season—anchor them. Alice recalls her childhood, lilacs and victory gardens during WWII, and how sensory deprivation is a byproduct of digital life. Notable Quotes:

  "Our senses are the pathways into our mind." — Alice Waters (18:57)
  "We're all sensorily deprived because we aren't touching and smelling and tasting and listening..." — Alice Waters (19:33)

6. Food, Community, and Self-Reliance

• Alice recalls Julia Child, the origins of Chez Panisse's home-like hospitality, and the importance of sharing work at home and in restaurants.
  Notable Quotes:

  "Sharing the work—it's not just women's work in the house." — Alice Waters (31:49)
  "Why aren't we all planting Victory gardens?" — Alice Waters (31:53)

7. Gender, Taboo, and the Shift in Generational Communication

• Julia and Alice discuss how taboos around women’s bodies shaped their upbringings and how the seismic cultural shifts of the 1960s and parenthood challenged and rewired that conditioning. Notable Quote:

  "Fanny opened up my mind... She wasn't afraid of those words and still can't say them." — Alice Waters (35:19)

8. Balancing Motherhood and a Demanding Career

• Alice innovated at Chez Panisse by introducing chef rotation, balancing family and professional life, and fostering collaborative creativity. Notable Quote:

  "I'm convinced that spending that money in that way is what has kept the restaurant alive for these 53 years." — Alice Waters (41:59)

9. The Infamous Boot: Werner Herzog’s Promise

• Alice recounts cooking director Werner Herzog’s boot in duck fat after a filmmaking bet; Herzog partially ate the leather boot to honor his word. Notable Quote:

  "I stuffed it with garlic... cooked it in duck fat... He had a very sharp scissors... he did a good job." — Alice Waters (51:42)
  "It's a testimonial to really believing in what you're doing." — Alice Waters (52:52)

10. Conversation on Grief, Aging & Death

• Alice shares deeply personal stories of losing four dear friends in six months. She reflects on how different people approach death and the importance of having wishes in order. She expresses her desire for a green burial and the significance of community in grief. Notable Quotes:

  "I was afraid of death...I had my four dear friends die within six months." — Alice Waters (54:29)
  "I want to be part of regenerative agriculture. I want to nourish the soil." — Alice Waters (58:03)

11. Aging, Advice, and the Power of Attention

• When asked what advice she'd offer her younger self, Alice says simply: “Pause. Don’t just tear through your life so quickly.”
  Notable Quotes:

  "Pause and pay attention." – Alice Waters (61:55)
  "I think we would all benefit to pause and pay attention much more often than we do..." – Julia Louis-Dreyfus (62:47)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• “We touch the things that matter less and less.” — Julia Louis-Dreyfus (02:18)
• “I really feel like age is about how you feel about yourself.” — Alice Waters (08:14)
• “Our senses are the pathways into our mind.” — Alice Waters (18:57)
• “Sharing the work—it's not just women's work in the house.” — Alice Waters (31:49)
• “I want to be part of regenerative agriculture. I want to nourish the soil.” — Alice Waters (58:03)
• “Pause and pay attention.” – Alice Waters (61:55)
• "It's a testimonial to really believing in what you're doing." — Alice Waters, on Herzog's boot (52:52)

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Important Timestamps & Segments

• Julia reads "Flash Frozen" and reflects on tactile connection: 00:02–04:40
• Introduction of Alice Waters, Chez Panisse, Edible Schoolyard: 04:44–07:40
• Alice on age, inspiration, and her great aunt: 08:04–09:29
• Cooking, everyday routines, pu-erh tea and health: 11:55–13:58
• Beauty, seasonality, and flowers: 15:45–18:10
• Sensory deprivation and Montessori education: 18:53–19:33
• Meeting Julia Child, home-cooked hospitality: 27:46–28:24
• On motherhood, taboos, and generational shifts: 34:14–35:19
• Work-life balance and ‘ensemble’ restaurant management: 40:28–42:10
• The Werner Herzog boot story: 50:06–52:52
• Grief, green burials, community in loss: 54:29–58:03
• Advice to her younger self: “Pause.” 60:51–61:55

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Bonus: Post-Interview with Julia’s Mother, Judith Bowles (64:25–69:47)

• Judith reminisces about WWII Victory Gardens:

  "If you planted your vegetables and had your family eat them, you would win the war." — Judith Bowles (65:56)

• Conversation about rationing, home economics, and the sense of purpose during WWII.

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Tone and Mood

• Warm, tactile, reflective: Both Julia and Alice share stories suffused with nostalgia, wisdom, and humor.
• Personal and profound: Vulnerability in discussing aging, regret, motherhood, grief, and the importance of pausing to notice life’s beauty.

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Final Takeaways

• Connect with what is real and seasonal: Food, flowers, family, and beauty ground us in time and place.
• Legacy through nourishment: Alice Waters’ activism, cooking, and innovation have reshaped American food and education.
• Live, love, and age with intention: Embrace the senses, foster community, face loss openly, and don’t forget to “pause and pay attention.”

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Transcript

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Lemonade. This is a favorite poem of mine. It's called Flash Frozen. Here it is. My mother grew up in a homemade world. Her mother stitched sunbonnets one stitch at a time for five little girls carried pears, beans to tomato, squash in her apron from the garden to the kitchen where steaming Mason jars with wide open mouths stood at the ready to receive. Jars lined the cool basement shelves like picture books, wild with color, waiting for another season. A huge gray pot, quiet on the stove, made soup for the week. In winter, root vegetables bounced, softened in water fragrant with the earth. Clarence Birdseye, born in Brooklyn, practiced taxidermy before joining the Department of Agriculture as a naturalist posted in the Arctic. There he learned a thing or two, watching the Inuit make holes in the ice, drop lines and bring up a fish frozen straight through in the blink of an eye. Clarence brought that thought home in a system that packed food into waxed cardboard cartons, Flash frozen, nearly fresh. My mother's freezer was as big as a car. Thursdays were poker night. She could whip up a meal in 20 minutes once she unwrapped the box. How about that? So that was actually written by my mom, Judy Bowles. And good God Almighty, I do love that poem. The grandmother who stitched the sunbonnets and carried pears and beans and tomato and squash from her garden to her kitchen was my mom's Grandma Bessie, my great grandmother. She was the original farm to table chef. Well, I mean, I guess everybody who didn't have a staff and a cook, which is most people, was a farm to table chef not so long ago. My mom and my sisters and I all hold Great Grandma Bessie in a kind of magical, sainted place. We all really wanna be a little bit more like Grandma Bessie, especially in the kitchen. I'm very lucky because my little sister Lauren lives in Los Angeles. And whenever we get together, which is very often making food, delicious food, is at the center of what is always a joyful time. She is a baker. I mean, a crazy great baker of amazing breads and muffins and bagels. And we are both obsessed with baking desserts. And I make things out of the food, food that I grow in my garden, like tomato sauce and pickles and jams and marmalades. And it's all pretty goddamn good, if I do say so myself. The thing that my mom catches really so beautifully in that poem is the physical tactile contact with the ingredients that make meals so delicious. And the melancholy in it is the loss of that contact. Of course, the poem is about A lot more, too. Family, caring, nourishment and other kinds of loss. You know, I've been thinking a lot about how as we speed forward and technology dominates more and more of our day to day lives, we touch the things that matter less and less. I mean, think about it. We don't hold the newspaper, we look at it on a screen. We don't put pen to paper very often. We don't rest the stereo needle carefully in the groove of a, of a cherished record album. We're a step back, it seems, from touching things that matter. I mean, life is easier. Yeah, sure, but even when we go to a beautiful place now, we immediately stick a phone between us and the sunset. God, you know, I mean, there's a loss there too. So maybe that's why. Cooking beautiful, healthy, yummy meals with my sister and her family, made with vegetables and hand picked fruit right out of the garden, or stuff that's carefully chosen at a farmer's market, and spending hours together, you know, working out the menu and working with our hands and our hearts means so, so much to me.

[Alice Waters]

Food. Mm.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. I mean, it's the basic. It's the most basic thing of all. And so how lucky then that today we get to talk to Alice Waters. I'm Julia Louis Dreyfus and this is Wiser Than Me, the podcast where I get schooled by women who are wiser than me. I remember what American cooking was like before Alice Waters. We ate stuff like frozen fish sticks and banquet fried chicken, TV dinners. And those were treats. I mean, that's what we look forward to. When our parents went out to a party. It was a dark time for taste buds everywhere. But our guest today knew there was something better. She is the founder of the groundbreaking Chez Panisse, a Berkeley, California based restaurant where she. She delved deep into the connections between environment, culture, food and politics by paying close attention to ingredients, not just in how they're prepared, but in how they're produced. She is a pioneer of the farm to table movement, maybe the pioneer. And most importantly, she championed the concept that food grown with care and treated with respect in the kitchen could be transformative and of course, delicious. Our guest has served up everything from delicious haricot verre and sun ripened peaches to, believe it or not, a braised pair of Werner Herzog's boots and a pot of red deer duck fat. We can talk about that later. It blows my mind how many renowned chefs trained with her. Basically everybody. The truth is, her impact on American cooking is immeasurable. And it doesn't stop in the kitchen. She's a tireless advocate for sustainable agriculture, food justice and education reform. Through initiatives like the Edible Schoolyard Project, she has provided hands on experiences that connect students to food, nature, and each other, while addressing the crises of climate change, public health and social inequality. At its heart is a dynamic and joyful learning experience for every child. And you can actually download the lesson plans. Alice is the recipient of some of the highest honors in both food and life, including seven James Beard Awards, the National Humanities Medal, and the French Legion of Honor. Please join me in welcoming an author, cook, activist, mother and woman who is, oh, so much wiser than me. Alice Waters. Welcome, Alice Waters. What a treat to have you with us.

[Alice Waters]

Thank you so much. Wonderful to talk with you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I'm happy you're here.

[Alice Waters]

I'm a little tearful about that introduction.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, no, no. Well, it's such a celebration. And you have so much to celebrate about yourself. And I personally am honored to talk with you today because I'm a ginormous fan of yours. Are you comfortable if I ask your real age?

[Alice Waters]

I just turned 80.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Nice. And how old do you feel?

[Alice Waters]

You know, I've never thought about age as being, you know, something I was looking forward to or something I look forward to back on. It's strange that when this happened this year, I mean, everybody else was concerned about me. They were, well, worried that I was getting old. And I really feel like age is about how you feel about yourself. And I had a great aunt who lived to 102.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Nice.

[Alice Waters]

And she was a wonderful inspiration to me my whole life. Her whole life. And I watched how she lived.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So when you say you watched how she aged, your aunt, what are you witnessing? What are you inspired by?

[Alice Waters]

I guess I'm inspired by their joie de vivre. Yeah, they're wanting to be present. They're wanting to communicate. Communicate what they know with everybody else and are so generous with that.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, that's so wonderful. Alice. I have to tell you how our lives connected. So I'm very close with my sister in law who's a conservationist and environmentalist in Northern California. And she did an auction for the Trails Forever dinner that was thrown by the Golden Gate National Park Conservancy. And one of the prizes being auctioned was you and I. Because it was a hike. Yeah, it was a hike with me and a picnic by you. Honestly, I'm going to tell you right now, I don't remember anything about the hike. And I love to hike. Okay. I'm a big hiker. I don't remember a thing. But I remember that goddamn sandwich was so good, Alice. And it was asparagus and prosciutto. It was on a baguet. There may have been butter, there may have been arugula. This I can't recall. But all we did was talk about this sandwich. I'm not kidding you. I don't remember a thing about the hike. And it was a big hike. So then I went home and I tried to recreate it, and it was complete crap, what I made. It was terrible.

[Alice Waters]

Well, that's because.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Tell me.

[Alice Waters]

I think it had IO Lee on it. Garlic. Garlic mayonnaise. And we make that with wonderful olive oil and a real sweet garlic. And garlic is a main ingredient, not only for taste, but for health. Have you seen the film Garlic is as good as 10 mothers?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No, but I'm going to watch it tonight.

[Alice Waters]

Okay. Les Plank made a film called Garlic Is as good as 10 mothers. It's a great title.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So you made a garlic aioli. I'm gonna now try this again because everything was off. The prosciutto was off. The asparagus was too stringy, you know, whatever. But I did try anyway. This is how much I loved it. I have so much work to do today because I'm gonna do this garlic mayonnaise. You know, you are known, of course, for making the everyday experience elevated. So I wanted to dig into your daily routine. For example, what do you have for breakfast?

[Alice Waters]

Well, I always have my pu Erh tea because I had high cholesterol. And I asked all my friends what I should do. And I had many of them tell me. Drink the fermented pu Erh tea. A Chinese tea.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay.

[Alice Waters]

A dark tea, and eat whole grains. And I absolutely was rigidly adherent to that prescription. And my cholesterol went down 100 points.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Get the hell out of here.

[Alice Waters]

No, really. It really.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Wait a minute. Did you take medication, too?

[Alice Waters]

No, I didn't want to take medication.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Fucking God, I can't believe what I'm hearing.

[Alice Waters]

It's true. And now I've become kind of a Puerto salesperson.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

How do you spell Puerto? Because I'm getting it from my husband.

[Alice Waters]

E, R, H, H, Puerto.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Is it tasty?

[Alice Waters]

I think it is. I make it very dark. I used to be a kind of Francophile in my breakfast. I drank a cafe au lait. I had a P of toast with some jam. That kind of early morning. And now when I'm drinking that tea, I want something savory. So I had this morning I had a little bit of salad, but I scrambled an egg.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Do you still cook each day? Do you plan your meals?

[Alice Waters]

Well, I always want to have the ingredients at my house, so I can cook something if I need to or want to. So I always have salad. I always have great farm eggs. And a lot of this I just get from Chez Panisse because I want everything from my organic, regenerative farmers.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Alice Waters]

The things that I have to have at home, our salad and fruit. And I want Meyer lemons. And I have a tree out back. I have herbs all in my backyard, so I can always get rosemary and sage and fry them. I can always make something tasty at the last minute.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I have a Meyer lemon tree, too, and it is such an unusual taste. And I always have lemon water in the morning. And if my Meyer lemons are ripe, I have my Meyer lemon water, which is an elevated lemon water experience. There's just no way around it. And I just recently, by the way, going off topic a little bit, I just started to make ice cream, and I made lemon ice cream. And I now I'm thinking, ooh, I'm excited to try to make Meyer lemon ice cream, because I think that'll be yummy.

[Alice Waters]

Right? Guess what. 53 years ago, no, 52, not in the first year of Chez Panisse, Lindsay, who was the pastry chef at Chez Panisse, started making Meyer lemon ice cream and Meyer lemon sherbet. And I have to say that that was a wake up not only for us in the kitchen, but for everybody who came to Chez Panisse. It was the dessert that they wanted again. And it was a long season, so. And we got them from people who brought them or exchanged them for a lunch at the restaurant. They would bring them from their backyard tree. I loved it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

God, I wish I lived near you. I would bring you Meyer lemons just so that I could eat that right now. You describe beauty as an essential life force. By the way, I put my dahlias here today for you.

[Alice Waters]

I saw those first ones. Good.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I'm so happy you notice them.

[Alice Waters]

First thing I said, oh, how beautiful.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Thank you. Oh, that makes me happy. Then mission accomplished, because those are from my garden, and I just wait every year for those things to pop up. And they're going crazy right now. And I'm going to post a picture of this on our socials so people can see. But you describe beauty as an essential life force. How do you bring beauty into your life every day? What is there a practice that you have? I think you're very like me. You're very into flowers. But talk to me about that.

[Alice Waters]

Well, I always want flowers in my house and of the moment in time. I don't want tulips in the middle of the winter. Yeah. And lilacs. I want them just in the spring when they're happening. And it keeps me connected exactly the way food does with where I am and time and place. It's all of those subtleties that I'm so connected to.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Have you always been like that?

[Alice Waters]

Well, when I was little, my great aunt and my mother used to go out always in the spring and in the fall to look at the trees. And we would drive on roads all in north New Jersey and see these glorious explosions of flowering trees and bushes. And we had a hedge of lilacs that I always wanted to go by. But that's kind of, I think, been in my life since I was very little. And of course, everybody had victory gardens during the war. And I'm sure that that really gave me a taste for strawberries and corn and tomatoes that I'll never, ever forget. Those are really hot weather vegetables and fruits. And no matter how delicious ours are here, not quite as good as New Jersey.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And isn't it interesting, too, how smells can be so as you're talking about, like the lilacs and the tomatoes, and I'm growing tomatoes right now. And the smell of a tomato plant is very specific. You know, when I'm nipping the leaves that I don't want there, my hands get that smell. And I love that smell.

[Alice Waters]

I think. You know, I'm a Montessori teacher.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Alice Waters]

And I was trained in London in 1968. And she, of course, believed way back in the 1880s, that our senses are the pathways into our mind. And I think, of course, in this tech world that we live in, that we're all sensorily deprived because we aren't touching and smelling and tasting and listening to things that are beautiful and looking at the world, the nature around us.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes, totally. Totally. There's even more wisdom from Alice Waters coming up after this break. Hey, prime members, did you know you can listen to Wiser Than Me ad free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today to start listening ad free. Okay. I'm not going to talk about food waste this time. Promise. I'm going to talk about food resources. All that uneaten food that's lazing around the landfill, tooting out greenhouse gases. It could be put to work enriching our soil or feeding our chickens. It's a valuable resource because it's still food. And the easiest and frankly way coolest way to put all its nutrients to work is with the Mill Food Recycler. Okay, it looks like an art house garbage can. You can just toss your scraps in it like a garbage can. It's definitely not a garbage can. True, I'm a little bit obsessed. I actually even invested in this thing. But I'm not alone. 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That's why the Ollie app offers health screenings for your pup too where you can call on Ollie's experts for questions to make sure your pup stays healthy and thriving every day. Your dog's well being starts with their food and that's why Ollie delivers fresh human grade food that your dog will love. Head to ollie.com wiser tell them all about your dog and use COD to get 60% off your welcome kit when you subscribe today. Plus they offer a happiness guarantee on the first box so if you're not completely satisfied, you'll get your money back. That's O l l I e.com wiser and enter code wiser to get 60% off your first box. I was watching you talking on the with Julia Child and you made the mushroom and fennel and parmesan salad with olive oil and lemon and I thought and I was at the market yesterday and I I thought oh God I'm gonna try that. That looks so divine. And so I I bought the fennel and the mushrooms. And I took it home and I started to sl. I don't have a mandolin. So I started to slice as thin as I could. And then I had a bite of fennel and I thought, oh, shit, I. I hate fennel. I'd forgotten that I hate fennel. I don't like the taste of licorice.

[Alice Waters]

I know I could get you to love fennel, but you need to get a little Japanese mandolin. Because that is an essential little equipment that I have from my kitchen. I have mortar and a pestle, and I have a mandolin. They're very inexpensive. You have to be careful that you do it slowly, see? But it's not like the big French one that's hard to use, and you really could hurt yourself. But when you eat a big chunk of fennel, I wouldn't want that. But if it's shaved thinly and mixed with greens and a great vinaigrette on it with garlic, it's delicious like that because it's a little tone of an herb.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I think what's becoming quite clear to me is that, is there any house in your neighborhood for sale? Because I have to move next to you. You have to be my neighbo.

[Alice Waters]

I have to confront. I'll find you a house.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I need a house, Alice. I need a house next to you. Did you get to know Julia Child?

[Alice Waters]

You know, I did. I knew her from year two, maybe, near one of the restaurants. And she came and she had the fixed price dinner, because that's all we had at the beginning.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Alice Waters]

3.95 for four courses.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And you had to eat that $3.95, to be clear.

[Alice Waters]

Yes, yes. And when I come over to the table, she said to me, this is not a restaurant. This is like eating in somebody's home. And I think she meant it a little bit as an insult.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No.

[Alice Waters]

But a little bit of. Of. What are you doing? And I thought it was the greatest compliment. The greatest compliment. And then we became good friends after that. And she always acted as sort of a big sister to me in that respect. The one show that we did together, I was just so embarrassed that I was doing something so foolishly simple, but she was so generous about. Oh, it's so fascinating, Ella. How did you crack an olive open when she knew perfectly, perfectly well how to do that? I didn't. And I'm acting like that is something special. I'm communicating to people. And it was so tender the way that she took care of me.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I have a Julia Child confession story because I live in Santa Barbara, where of course, she lived at the end of her life.

[Alice Waters]

Yes.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And she was very close friends with our neighbor at the time, time, Dal Delarmy. And she would often, of course, as I'm sure it happens with you as well, people would send her food, people would send her meat. And Dal, our neighbor, was a wonderful barbecuer, and so she would bring meat to him and then he would barbecue it, et cetera. And so one day our neighbors said, oh, Julia's coming over tonight for a cocktail. Come over for a cocktail. And I said, oh, okay. This is, by the way, this is quite a long time ago and our kids were really young, you know, this, by the way, does not reflect well on me. So just heads up about that. And so then it, you know, it was around that time and I was like, oh my God, I can't go to somebody's house. We've got too much to do and the kids and blah, blah, blah. And we didn't go.

[Alice Waters]

We didn't go.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And I'm gonna tell you that if somebody said to me, do you have any regrets in your life? That would top the list because we didn't go and we missed a chance to meet that icon and good human being. So anyway, I'm confessing to you, my priest, Alice Waters, and I hope that you're gonna tell me that you forgive my sin.

[Alice Waters]

I do forgive your sin because I understand completely about taking care of a child and a family at home around dinner. And my new grandchild is absolutely adorable, but she takes full time attention and I want to be there for her, especially around dinner. And I understand the issues for parents to leave at that time. And, and I think one of the great things that's going on right now are that men are connected with children and are cooking for the family. And I just love it. It's about sharing the work, right?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Sharing the work. It's not just women's work in the house.

[Alice Waters]

It is not.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It is absolutely not.

[Alice Waters]

That's the beautiful thing that's going on in this next generation. And we're find, finding out about the passions of each other and the gardening is the same way. Why aren't we all planting Victory gardens? Why aren't we planting wherever we can and growing food?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

By the way, my mother's 90 and she had her own very own Victory garden as a little girl. And the word Victory garden is so beautiful. I think I have to make a sign and put that on my garden that says Victory Garden.

[Alice Waters]

And I did that during the pandemic. And Neighbors came over and said, how do you keep the deer away from your vegetables? And I never had talked to my neighbors before. All of a sudden they're.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

How do you keep the deer away? And by the way, how do you keep the bunnies away? The bunnies. These fucking bunnies in my. They're making me crazy.

[Alice Waters]

Well, I figured out how you plant something for them to eat that they like. And that's over there. And so the things that you want are over here. And what do they like? What do bunnies like? Probably carrots, I presume. I've never had the problem with bunnies. I've just had the problem with deer.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, I guess I'm gonna have to plant carrots all over my house because I've actually turned into Farmer MacGregor. I mean, I'm thinking, like, I gotta trap these things and eat them or something. I wanna switch gears to ask you a question about motherhood, actually. Specifically because I was really interested in your memoir. You talked about your mother's postpartum when nobody had. Would discuss postpartum. And her help. Receiving help was considered a taboo. And the arrival of your first period, which you felt you couldn't mention even with your pregnancy. It struck me how little women were supposed to know or were allowed to know about their bodies when you were growing up. And I'm wondering how did that.

[Alice Waters]

Sort.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Of culture affect or influence the way you raised your daughter? Were there things that you found you had shame about that you had to find a way to get over? I'm curious about that because I think, frankly, my mother had the same experience about that challenge.

[Alice Waters]

Well, I did. I was in Berkeley in the 60s. Yes, right.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So there's a. That.

[Alice Waters]

That opened up my mind in so many ways. Yes. But I still had those taboos in me.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Me.

[Alice Waters]

And I think that, you know, in some ways, Fanny's father did not have those in his life. Or didn't. Didn't feel that way about nakedness or just the parts of, you know, your body that are just not to be talked about. And Fanny opened up my mind in a way.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Interesting.

[Alice Waters]

She did. She helped me to really accept myself in that way. She wasn't afraid of those words and still can't say them. Really Strange. No, I can't. I can't say them quite. I can think them, but I can't say them. Interesting. And I believe in it. I believe in having skeletons that we learned from. In our science class in fourth grade, we had that. We don't know anything about anatomy anymore. Where Is our gallbladder. I had to ask when I went to the doctor, where is that? I mean, why don't we know?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And what is it doing, by the way?

[Judith Bowles]

What is.

[Alice Waters]

Yes. And what is it doing?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I mean, people get rid of their gallbladder, don't they?

[Alice Waters]

I know. We don't know anything. Anything about the functioning of our bodies.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Alice Waters]

And, I mean, it was only Kennedy that helped us learn about exercise and what our muscles did, and he encouraged us all to exercise. And. And that was the beginning of my really sort of passion about it. But, you know, we didn't. We thought. And we still do things of exercise as hard.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. As opposed to just a pleasure. Yes.

[Alice Waters]

I mean, it's like walking out at night and seeing the stars. Yes. Watching the sunset. Even if you're in a city body, it's like you get to move and breathe in a kind of air that's different. And I just think that we have such a wrong understanding. Well, it goes with the food, too. It's completely misunderstood what is good for us and what is.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, indeed. It really is. I would love to shift here and talk about your life as a mother. You had your daughter at age 40, which is just phenomenal, by the way, I love the name Fanny. Can you talk about that transition? Because, of course, you had been running Chez Panisse at that time. And then talk about what you did once Fanny was born and how you managed that. I'm going to say transition.

[Alice Waters]

Fanny was a child of the restaurant. I did bring her there very early on, and the waiters, she would crawl around in the dining room. And I wrote a book about her when she was 10 years old and. And making her pizza upstairs in the restaurant with Michele and all of those experiences she had at a very early age. But I wanted her to understand that food was right of the moment and needed to be eaten. You know, from the garden to the table, that experience. So we had a garden out in back of the house. But another great story, which I might have told one time, was she and her friend wanted to have blueberry pancakes. And I said, this isn't the time. It's wintertime. There's no blueberries. She said, I'm going to go to the store, Auntie. I said, organic. Organic blueberries. Remember that? So she comes back with a little organic label on the blueberries. I said, where did she get that? And in the end, she had to admit that she stole the organic label from another package and that put them all in the blueberries.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Did she confess in the moment or later?

[Alice Waters]

No, just a few moments later. About 10 minutes later.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Bless her heart. This is a child rebelling against Alice Waters. That is Alice. But explain how, I mean, as you acknowledged, you know, being at home at dinner time, putting a child to bed, that doesn't, shall we say, jive very well with running a restaurant. So can you talk about that balance, how you manage? Did you step back a little bit?

[Alice Waters]

Did you? Well, I did. I knew we were open for six days, and I knew that I couldn't work six days, but maybe I could work three days and have another chef work three days, and they would get paid for full time time, but they would only work three days. And it worked so well because they were inspired. They brought another viewpoint to the restaurant that I decided to do that for the cafe chefs and for the pastry chefs. And we've done this since I had my daughter, you know, know, 40 years ago. I mean, and it changed the. The life of the restaurant because the people who were working on the menus could go out and eat, could take care of their families, could go on vacation. The other chef would cover for them.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Alice Waters]

And everybody who worked at the restaurant would have several opinions. You know, they would learn how to make that salad that way and this way with different chefs. And so I am convinced that spending that money in that way is what has kept the restaurant alive for these 53 years.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, I think it's interesting because it kind of. It really does overlap with what you were saying earlier, and that is the connection to the people with whom you're working, the almost ensemble work that you're doing as a restaurant. And that is, of course, there is so much respect built into that way of working that it is so ingrained. There is nothing but respect there. And people respond to that. It brings out the best in someone. And that's a great life lesson. It can be applied to so many things. Certainly, I do apply that to the work that I do when I'm working in an ensemble, which is my favorite thing in the world to do. And that kind of give and take and the ability to listen and the ability to share in a moment. It's a great life lesson. It's time to take another break. We'll be right back with Alice Waters in just a moment. It's fall, which means your skin's about to start acting differently. 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[Alice Waters]

I have so many things I want to tell you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes, well, you must. And I want you. One thing I'd love for you to tell is the Werner Herzog story with the boot. Would you mind explaining the genesis of that? It's such a good story.

[Alice Waters]

Well, it's a story about two filmmakers, Werner Herzog and Errol Morris. And they were both people I knew because of my dearest friend, Tom Luddy. Yes. And he came. He used Chez Panisse as his dining room. So I met, you know, George Lucas and Coppola and Kurosawa, and everybody came to Shea because of Tom. And Tom encouraged a film to be made about Werner Herzog making a bet with Errol Morris. Referring to a film that Errol Morris was going to make, Verna said, if you do make this film, Errol Morris, I will eat my shoe. Then Tom Luddy said, oh, well, Alice. Well, well, cook the shoe. Alice would cook the shoe. And Vernor brings by a walking boot that he had, a big old tough boot. And I said, verna, I'm not sure I can cook that. He said, cook it. And I stuffed it with garlic and I tied it all up. And I figured it was a little bit like cooking a duck. Confused, Fee. Cook it in the fat. Cook it in duck fat.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I'm assuming it was leather.

[Alice Waters]

It was leather. Oh, God, yes. Yes.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You're not cooking some sort of Gore Tex situation.

[Alice Waters]

Yeah, it was leather. But anyway, I started cooking it and cooking it and cooking it and cooking it and. Funny. Tom came by to get the shoe to take over to the auditorium where Frank Furner was going to eat the shoe, because Errol made the film and I could not really make it happen. But Werner, in his enthusiasm, started to eat the shoe. I watched him eat about. He had a very sharp scissors that he cut it with and. And he did chew it up and he didn't eat the whole thing, but he did a good job.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And did he go straight to the emergency room after that?

[Alice Waters]

No, but I just.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I think that is so remarkable.

[Alice Waters]

It's a testimonial to really believing in what you're doing. Yes. And believing in film to that degree, to understanding the value of a certain filmmaker, knowing it's important, the films he's making. And that is, I guess, the way I would feel, too. I'm not sure I would eat a shoe, but I might have to do something that I didn't like because. Because I wanted to show people that it was that Important to me.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, I get it. I have to say that was an extraordinary story. And speaking of Tom Luddy, I know that he passed away last year, very sadly for our listeners. Tom Luddy was a film producer who co founded the Telluride Film Festival Festival. And I wanted to ask Alice, actually, if you don't mind, about the things that change as we age. And I'd like to talk about how you deal with grief and loss because you're so community oriented in the most healthy and magical way. Really. How do you rebuild the community as you move through grief, as you have lost people? I mean, this is a part of life. How do you do it?

[Alice Waters]

Well, I wouldn't have believed that I could do it, really. I was afraid of death. And I had my four dear friends die within six months.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Four hours.

[Alice Waters]

Four. All four. Tom Luddy, who was my friend of 50 years, 55 years. I had Fritz Strife, who wrote every book with me, wrote every letter to a president for me. He walked with me every morning and I haven't been able to imagine my life without him. And then Steve Crumley, who was the first waiter at Chez Panisse. He was the head of the cafe at the top of the stairs for everyone. He was Chez Panisse. And the fourth one was, of course, David Goytz. And then David had a stroke and he was paralyzed. And David is somebody who always did things the way he wanted. Coffee with cognac. You know, that kind of person always knew what he wanted. And there he was in the hospital, paralyzed. And I knew he wouldn't be there long. And even though his sister's daughter wanted him to, to stay alive and go through rehab, he said, I want to go home. Said to his best friend Richard from the printing press days, I want a blueberry muffin and a rye whiskey. He ate the blueberry muffin, drank the rye whiskey whiskey and died. Wow. That was it. I learned so much about dying. Some did it poorly that they couldn't help it. They didn't plan for it. They didn't think it was going to happen. And some had partners who helped them really be with their friends right to the end, who had their favorite musicians come and play music, invited Chez Panisse into their house. And then there were people that wanted to do it in private and did it when their partner, you know, left on a trip. And. And they were all so different in the.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Alice Waters]

And I saw what it was like when you don't have your wishes written down and notarized before you die. You. You can't count on friends and family to do that because they may be stricken with grief and they have families that want to do something other. Want to have cremations. I've already told Fanny that, you know, I've got a backup for you if you don't do what I want. And I want to be buried in the cross ground because there are now cemeteries where there are trees.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes. A green burial.

[Alice Waters]

No casket. Just. I want to be part of regenerative agriculture. I want to nourish the soil. Don't want a casket just in there. And I. I can't probably do it in my backyard, so she could have a lettuce garden there. But I really think it's important. Just think of the way that people have been buried since the beginning of time. And I'm sure that that was part of what kept the soil so rich with all of the nutrients is the burials.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It's interesting, isn't it, that we all have in common the fact that we've been born mystically, magically born in this moment, and we all have in common that we're all gonna go.

[Alice Waters]

Yes.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But isn't it interesting that people really push away that fact?

[Alice Waters]

Yes.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And to your point about, can we say dying? Well, that there's a denial in place that is. Is an obstacle to dying.

[Alice Waters]

Well, I think there is huge obstacle. Even the people that are very, very committed about it, somebody's got questions for them that they can't answer, and it goes in different directions. But I saw that I need to prepare myself, and not just mentally, but physically. And I just appreciate the cultures that care about this, like the Japanese culture, particularly. I'm so interested in the way they treat children and schools and how they treat older people. People, and they care for them. I've always wanted to commune right to the end for my friends. I promise that. And from the time I was 30, I just thought, what if we all just live together?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Alice Waters]

Until we go. And Ruth, Roger was asking about where that commune was today.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Alice Waters]

And maybe it's Santa Barber.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Maybe. Can I join it, by the way? Oh, thanks. I'd love to be in it. I'd love to be in it. I want to ask you quick little questions before we go. Is there something you go back and tell yourself when you were 21?

[Alice Waters]

Pause.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, really?

[Alice Waters]

Don't just tear through your life so quickly. I mean, I was part, you know, of the free speech movement and, you know, the whole drinking and living and the sexual freedom times. Stop the war. I mean, and we were so kind of starved for connection with each other, but it's very difficult to do when we aren't really, really encouraged and taught in college about what the bigger world is about. And that was something that Mario Savio taught me at Berkeley during the Free Speech Movement. He said, we need to learn from other people who have other ways of living.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Pause and pay attention.

[Alice Waters]

Pause and pay attention. Now, of course, I'm running like crazy right now, trying to change the world.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I know, I know. I'm running, too. But it's something I have to tell myself as well. In fact, yesterday I was taking my dog for a walk, and we. Walking through the garden, and I was actually admiring some plants that are in bloom. And then I saw a hummingbird land on a little, tiny, tiny branch of this particular plant. And I just stood there watching it, and it was clear that this is a bird who's guarding a nest. Cannot see the nest. You know how tiny these things are. And I thought, oh, I have. I've got to. I have to take the dog to the vet. I've got to meet with this person. But I just stayed there. And I sort of been thinking about that ever since, just sort of watching the hummingbirds sit. And so I'm thinking about that advice. I think we would all benefit to pause and pay attention much more often than we do, particularly in this country.

[Alice Waters]

Well, that's exactly the kind of walk I take every morning. I'm just looking at what's growing, and I'm just fascinated by it. And it's happening everywhere. I mean, you don't have to go to Central Park. No, I mean, the birds are everywhere.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Alice Waters]

And flowers are everywhere, and they're changing all the time.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, of course.

[Alice Waters]

And so you. You notice things even in the dandelions that are in the. The little space between the sidewalk and the street.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Alice, I wanted to show you the picture of the hummingbird that I took yesterday. Yesterday. Can you see that?

[Alice Waters]

Oh, I love it. I've got some pictures just like that for you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, it's pretty fun to see them just hanging out.

[Alice Waters]

Incredible.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Isn't that, dear?

[Alice Waters]

Yes. Yeah. Yes.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Alice Waters, I can't thank you enough for generously giving us so much of your time today. I'm indebted to you. I hope that someday we get to spend time together.

[Alice Waters]

Well, there's always a seat for you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Bless you. Thank you for everything today.

[Alice Waters]

Thank you for asking me. Wow.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, what a beautiful conversation that was with Alice. I just can't wait to talk to my mom. About this one, let's get her on a zoom right away. Hi, mom. Hi, sweet mom. Okay, I just had the most wonderful conversation with Alice Waters. Oh, what an extraordinary woman she is.

[Judith Bowles]

What a huge impact that she's had on this world.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes. We have her to thank for the farm to table movement and regenerative farming and sustainability. You know, she brought that into the fore.

[Judith Bowles]

Absolutely. And got us away from SpaghettiOs.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, got us away from SpaghettiOs.

[Judith Bowles]

And that's what you grew up on.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

SpaghettiOs and banquet fried chicken dinners. We love that. I happened to mention that in my intro of her. But don't worry, mom, it's all good. It's all fine.

[Judith Bowles]

Yeah. Well, you look okay. I hope.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So far so good. Yeah. She talked about her parents victory garden. And just to be clear, the victory garden idea was brought to about by President Roosevelt. Right, mom?

[Judith Bowles]

Right.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

During World War II, he encouraged people to plant gardens and called them victory gardens in support of the war effort. Can you talk about your victory garden? What was the idea behind it? Sort of nationally. And then what was your thinking about it when you were a little girl?

[Judith Bowles]

Oh, I mean, I thought it was gigantic. I mean that if you plant, if you planted your vegetables and you had your family eat them, that you would win the war. It was just as simple as that. And it was just a victory. And every family would never have to go to the store because you had all your own vegetables and made you independent and. And made. Made us win the war. So I, I had a fairly small plot that was out the side door. Door was a good sunny corner of our house, the backyard. And you were about seven, seven or eight, Right, Exactly. So I got hold of seeds, but I planted them way too close together. I didn't quite understand how much space each one needed. Well, at any rate, not too much happened in that garden except for carrots. And I remember very well one day riding my bike up this side drive driveway and seeing these little green tops coming.

[Alice Waters]

Yeah.

[Judith Bowles]

And I thought, oh, did you? We're winning the war. This is so great. It was so excited. And I tried to keep watching, but I got too excited. So I started to pull them out. They were like little hair carrots. So they're like little. I mean, you could barely see them, they were so darn. And so anyway, then I tried to leave some in there, but. But I just kept getting excited every time I looked at them and did my harvesting way too early.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So they were like little tiny, like hairpins coming out. Carrot hairpins. I bet they were Tasty. Because they were so baby. Yes, right.

[Judith Bowles]

Very sweet. But all those things that we did, the scrap metal and tin cans that you gathered, and then you took them to the scrap metal center and you bought Victory Stainless Steel. And all of those small things that we did seemed to me to be crucial. And I really, as I had my red wagon and was gathering up tin cans, I was convinced that that was going to win the war.

[Alice Waters]

Mom.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And wasn't there rationing, too?

[Judith Bowles]

Oh, yeah, there was rationing of sugar and butter, and we didn't get any butter, but we got oleomargarine, which was sort of a white stuff. And then you added yellow dye to it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, dear.

[Judith Bowles]

Oh, it was just terrible. It was awful.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And what was the idea of the Victory garden? Just what was the idea political? Why did he suggest that people plant gardens?

[Judith Bowles]

I don't know. Somehow I think probably I'm imagining that was Eleanor Roosevelt.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Judith Bowles]

Because he was very influenced by the work in Cornell. And Cornell was the place that had the first really home economics. That was not just stupid. I mean, it was very scientific.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So here's what my exterior brain, my phone is telling me about why Americans were asked to plant victory gardens. Officials reminded Americans that a well planned victory garden was not only patriotic, but could provide a family with nutritious and tasty food. America had a reputation as a land of plenty, But World War II challenged the nation's ability to grow and distribute food because obviously the distribution of food is an expensive undertaking. So that's a really fascinating idea. And I know it was such a formative part of your life, and it was a formative part of Alice's life as well, which is just so, so interesting.

[Judith Bowles]

Oh, sure.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Anyway, I hope that our paths cross again because I really, really like Alice. She's just a lovely person. All right, so you're lovely, too. And now I'm going to say good goodbye to you.

[Judith Bowles]

Okay, well, I will say goodbye to you, too. I love you. Thank you for talking to her and talking to me.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay, love you, Mommy. Have a wonderful day.

[Judith Bowles]

Okay, thanks.

[Alice Waters]

You too.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Bye. There's more Wiser Than Me with Lemonada Premium on Apple. You can listen to any every episode of season three ad free. Subscribers also get access to exclusive bonus interview excerpts from each episode. Subscribe now by clicking on the Wiser Than Me podcast logo in the Apple Podcasts app and then hitting the subscribe button. Make sure you're following Wiser Than Me on social media. We're on Instagram and TikTok at wiser than Me. And we're on Facebook at. Wiser Than Me Podcast Wiser Than Me is a production of Lemonada Media, created and hosted by me, Julia Louis Dreyfus. This show is produced by Chrissy Peace, Jamila, zara Williams, Alex McGowan, and Oja Lopez. Brad hall is a consulting producer, Rachel Neal is VP of New Content, and our SVP of Weekly Content and Production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Paula Kaplan, Stephanie Whittles, Wax, Jessica Cordova, Kramer, and me. The show is mixed by Johnny Vince Evans with engineering help from James Sparber, and our music was written by Henry hall, who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music. Special thanks to Will Schlegel and of course, my mother, Judith Bowles. Follow Wiser Than Me wherever you get your podcasts, and if there's a wise old lady in your life, listen up. J.