Listen Again: Julia Gets Wise with Darlene Love

Summary

Podcast Summary: Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus

Episode: Listen Again: Julia Gets Wise with Darlene Love
Release Date: December 31, 2025
Host: Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Guest: Darlene Love
Podcast by: Lemonada Media

---

Main Theme

In this insightful and spirited episode, Julia Louis-Dreyfus sits down with legendary singer Darlene Love, exploring the hard-won wisdom, resilience, and positivity that comes from a lifetime in the arts. Their conversation traverses Darlene’s extraordinary career, the challenges she faced as a Black woman in the music industry, and the personal hurdles as a mother and survivor. The episode is filled with candid reflections, laughter, emotional moments, and life lessons that apply far beyond showbusiness.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Julia’s Vulnerability with Performing (01:19–08:30)

• Julia reflects on her lifelong love of singing but candidly shares her anxieties around solo performance, including moments of stage fright and blackouts—even with accomplished musicians like Carole King and Jewel.
  • "There's nothing more joyful in the world than singing than music… And when you hear a great singer, oh my God, it's just transcendent. For me, what really tops it all is gospel and soul. There is nothing like it." (07:38–08:15)

Darlene’s Attitude About Aging & Energy (08:31–10:58)

• Darlene, at almost 82, feels “younger than [her] children.”
  • "I feel as good, if not better, than I did in my 20s and 30s." (09:38)
• Her energetic nature comes from her upbringing and her father’s example.
• She remains physically active—kickboxing at 5:30 am, four days a week—and is usually the oldest (but most energetic) person in her class.

Roots in Gospel & Relationship with Secular Music (11:00–14:07)

• Darlene started in gospel; sang alongside Aretha Franklin and admired Sam Cooke.
• Her Pentecostal family discouraged “devil’s music,” but her father was quietly supportive:
  • "He could not just openly sing, 'You can sing rock and roll… Just go ahead and do it.' But he would say that privately: 'Go ahead, sweetheart, you can do it.'" (12:49–13:23)
• She discusses gender roles and expectations in the church, and how those shaped her mother’s and her own life.

Navigating Divorce and Stigma (14:07–15:47)

• Darlene faced community judgment for divorcing and remarrying, against church doctrines.
  • "I was going straight to hell." (14:16)
• Her father’s compassion helped her navigate these tough waters.

Celebrating Background Work and Breaking Barriers (15:48–19:13)

• Darlene found fulfillment as a backup singer (for Elvis, Tom Jones, Dionne Warwick, etc.), emphasizing camaraderie and skill grown during these years.
• Dionne Warwick advised:
  • "Don't let people stop you from being who you are." (16:52)
• Darlene’s stardom only truly blossomed at age 40, encouraging persistence and evolution.

Channeling Strength and Kindness in Adversity (19:14–20:13)

• On facing disappointments or not making it:
  • "You have to be so strong, but also you have to be kind… I felt I had to be strong and let people know I am strong in what I do and who I am, but I also have to be kind too." (19:13–19:20)
• She believes a long entertainment career demands resilience and adaptability.

Famous Friends, Stage Stories & Turning Points (21:24–24:41)

• Reminiscences of working with stars—Elvis liked singing old hymns, Sam Cooke was a friend from youth, and Dionne became a lifelong ally.
• Darlene describes the excitement and choreography challenges of the Elvis '68 Comeback Special:
  • "That was like an Olympic athlete move, going down those stairs singing, not falling." (21:43–21:57)
  • Elvis insisted the “girls” be seen, not just heard.

Raising Sons, Personal Struggles & Family Support (30:01–34:32)

• Darlene juggled her singing career, single motherhood, and financial burdens—sometimes working as a housekeeper.
• Open about her sons’ struggles, including one serving a 12-year sentence due to California’s three-strike law:
  • "If they don't have a life to come to after they come out, they usually go back in. But they had support from me, their fathers, my mother and father... now life is paying me off." (33:05–34:16)

Health Scare: Darlene’s Heart Attack (34:32–38:21)

• She candidly shares her “junk eater” habits and how they may have contributed to her heart attack while performing on Broadway.
• Husband's quick thinking (giving her aspirin) likely saved her life.
  • "The doctor said your husband saved your life." (38:24)

Love, Companionship, and Renewal (38:31–40:49)

• Darlene reflects on finding lasting love on her third marriage, with her husband supporting her personal and professional growth:
  • "He wanted to help me build my career, just like your dad." (40:44–40:49)
• She met him while struggling, not seeking a relationship, but “he just snuck right in.”

Reinvention in New York & Late-Career Success (43:54–46:48)

• Stevie Van Zandt and Bruce Springsteen encouraged her move to New York, where she began her solo career at 40.
• Success came slowly but surely, through perseverance and energetic live shows.
  • "Don't let people talk to you about age. If you still got it… don't worry about it." (44:21)

Phil Spector—Exploitation, Lawsuit, and Vindication (49:26–53:14)

• Darlene discusses having her name erased from hit records by Phil Spector, her sense of injustice, and ultimately suing him—and winning.
  • "I never tried to carry hate...But I disliked what he was doing to me...but I wouldn't let myself go to his level to hate him." (49:55–51:32)
• The importance of standing up for herself: “It was symbolism.”

Stage as Sanctuary; Advice to Her Younger Self (53:14–56:11)

• Performing brings her joy, catharsis, and transcendence; anger or stress disappear on stage.
• Wouldn’t necessarily want her 21-year-old self to know too much, as hardship and striving are essential to appreciating life.

Best Business Advice—From Dionne Warwick (56:52–57:39)

• "Whatever it is you want to do, you just have to… find a way to do it." (57:01)
• "There is no miracle. There is no special something. You just believe you can do it, and you do it." (57:16)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Age and Energy:
  "I feel younger than my children. My oldest son is 62." — Darlene Love (08:54)

• On Gender Expectations in the Church:
  "The woman always has to be... in her place, in second position. It's gotten a hundred times better today, but back in the day, they were just looked on as somebody to sit and be cute and not say anything." — Darlene Love (13:49–14:07)

• On Surviving the Music Industry:
  "Our business is so hard. Being entertainer, being a preacher, or being the president are three things you better be ready for. There's nothing easy about any of those." — Darlene Love (19:19–19:26)

• On Resilience and Reinvention:
  "I didn't think you were gonna wait till I got 45 to get this career moving, but here we are." — Darlene Love (24:19–24:41)

• On Lawsuits and Vindication:
  "He was so shocked that I won, because nobody has ever sued Phil Spector and won." — Darlene Love (52:42–52:45)

• On Stage as Sanctuary:
  "When I'm on stage, everything else falls away." — Darlene Love (53:26–53:30)
  "When I get off the stage, the band is like, 'Who were you mad at?'" — Darlene Love (53:43)

• On Life and Learning:
  "He [God] shows you the beginning and the end, but he doesn't show you all the crap you have to go through to get to the end." — Darlene Love (54:42)

---

Important Segment Timestamps

• Julia’s singing anxieties & admiration for soul/gospel: 01:19–08:31
• Darlene on aging, energy, and exercise: 08:31–10:58
• Gospel roots, secular music, family: 11:00–14:07
• Divorce & community/family support: 14:07–15:47
• Life as a background singer, advice from Dionne Warwick: 15:48–19:13
• On kindness, strength, and career longevity: 19:13–20:13
• Elvis stories, stardom at 40, career advice: 21:24–24:41
• Motherhood, personal challenges, prison: 30:01–34:32
• Heart attack survival, dietary confessions: 34:32–38:21
• Lasting marriage and support: 38:31–40:49
• Reinvention in New York thanks to Stevie Van Zandt: 43:54–46:48
• Phil Spector lawsuit and lessons learned: 49:26–53:14
• Best business advice from Dionne Warwick: 56:57–57:39

---

Tone and Energy

The conversation is buoyant, frank, and full of laughter—even as it traverses painful territory. Julia is open, self-deprecating, and deeply respectful. Darlene is effervescent, candid, and radiates wisdom and resilience born from “the trenches.” The rapport is warm and authentic, making even their toughest stories feel empowering.

---

For Listeners

This episode is an inspiring masterclass in perseverance and joy. Darlene Love’s journey reminds us that it’s never too late for reinvention, that kindness and strength are not opposites, and that true wisdom comes from living fully—failures and all.

Highly recommended listening for:

• Anyone feeling “behind” in life or career
• Artists navigating difficult industries
• Those seeking wisdom on aging, motherhood, forgiveness, and personal reinvention

Transcript

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Hearing a voice can change everything. So AT&T wants everyone to gift their voice to loved ones this holiday season because that conversation is a chance to say something they'll hear forever. AT&T connecting changes everything. It seems like everyone's shouting protein from the rooftops lately. And that's fair. It really does maintain your muscles. And protein is a great way to recover after a hike or a run. But let's be honest, meeting your protein needs shouldn't recover require you to consume another sad unseasoned chicken breast. Ratio protein yogurt has 25 grams of protein per cup. That's more than four whole eggs. Not only is it packed with protein, but ratio protein has a smooth and creamy texture, so there's no need to compromise great taste when hitting your goals. And get this ratio protein's 25 grams of protein is the most protein per cup in the yogurt aisle, plus 6. Zero added sugar. This helps you get the fuel you need to power through your day. Ratio does the math so you don't have to head to ratiofood.com to find a retailer near you.

[Darlene Love]

Lemonade.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I love singing. I took singing lessons, voice lessons, all through middle and upper school. I was in the glee club. I was a really good mezzo soprano, and I always loved singing in a group. I still do. When I was pretty little junior high, I think, we had a big voice recital with a sizable audience, you know. And I was meant to sing two songs, two solos in the recital. The first one was one of those awful Victorian parlor songs called Bendemeer's Stream. I had spent many months rehearsing it, and on opening night I got on stage and I started to sing. There's a Bower of Roses by Bendemere Stream. And the next line goes. And the nightingale sings round it all the day long. But I never got to that second line, okay? Cause my mind went totally blank and I couldn't remember anything. So I just kept repeating that line. There's a bower of roses on Bendemere Stream. A bower of roses by Bendemeer Stream over and over for the rest of the song. I am telling you, it was so awful. I'm making myself sick telling this story. It was the first time I'd ever experienced anything like that. A real, truly botched performance. And I mean, I love to perform, but I just froze, man. It was devastating. But here's the deal. See, I still had to sing my other song, which was Far from the Home I Love from Fiddler on the Roof. And I'M going to tell you something. It was the most magnificent performance I have ever given because I was so upset about fucking up Bendemeer's stream. I was bawling the entire time I was singing my second song, far from the home I love. How can I hope to make you understand why I do what I do? And I'm weeping and I'm weeping Far from the home I love and tears are just, like, running down my cheeks I could barely get words out, but the tune was coming. And, I mean, I'm telling you, everybody was cheering. They think I'm a musical theater genius who can on command, summon the emotions needed for Fiddler on the Roof. So that's what happens to me, singing in front of people. I go blank. I don't get it, okay? I love singing. I love music. I have a pretty decent voice. I really do. But this has happened to me now a number of times, only in front of people, okay? I'm fine in a studio or in a group, but when there are a lot of people. God damn it. So I work with the nrdc, which is the natural Resources Defense Council. And recently there was this big NRDC event, and Carole King was performing and I was hosting or something, and Carole King had the idea that I should come out with Jewel, actually, and we would all sing a couple of stanzas of this land is your land together, okay? So I'm standing off stage, I'm holding the microphone, ready to come out and sing with the glorious Carole King, which is a dream come true, of course. And right before I went out, I got so frightened, I suddenly developed a fever, easily 102. And I remember thinking, wow, my God, I have a proper fever. You know, I'm sweating, I'm shaking. I had this horrible high fever, and out I go with Jewel. And I swear to you, I don't remember a goddamn thing. Nothing. I blacked out. My husband tells me it went great, but, I mean, seriously, I have absolutely no reason to believe him. So I tell all of these stories on myself, not just to scare away musical producers. And I do want to say that I think with a little rehearsal, you guys, and perhaps some medication, I would absolutely figure this out. But I bring it up because it's ironic, because to me, there's nothing more joyful in the world than singing than music. And I wish there were a way I could be a part of a Glee club again. I mean, that'll never happen. I often thought maybe I should join a church so I could sing in the choir. But I really, honestly, I don't want to join a church or a choir, but I would like to be able to sing. I think it's just the most human, primal, wonderful thing. And when you hear a great singer, oh, my God, you can't believe what you're hearing. It's just transcendent. Any kind of singer, an opera singer, a jazz singer, rock and roll singer. When it's good, it's magic. And for me, what really tops it all is gospel and soul. There is nothing like it. And that's why today I'm talking to Darlene. Hi, I'm Julia Louis Dreyfus, and this is Wiser Than Me. A show where each week I get schooled by women who are wiser than me. Can you imagine being in the studio singing with Elvis Presley and Sam Cooke and Dionne Warwick, the Beach Boys and Aretha Franklin? Sharing the stage with Tom Jones and the Boss himself, Bruce Springsteen, and being the singer that even Mariah Carey calls the real Queen of Christmas? How about being one of Rolling Stone's 100 Greatest Singers? That's Darlene Love. When I saw the documentary 20ft from stardom, which so beautifully captures the triumphs and hardships of some of the most important yet most unknown voices in pop music, I made it a bucket list item to meet and talk to the one and only Darlene Love. I've stalked her on Instagram ever since. And she can rock the hell out of a red jumpsuit. She spent six decades being an artist in the roughest of all of the arts, popular music. She's made spectacular art in an industry that is exceptionally brutal and has always undervalued women of color. Color. She's a mother, an author, and a Rock and Roll hall of Famer. She's been through it all, and she's still standing and still singing. She's Darlene Love and she is so much wiser than me. Welcome, wonderful Darlene.

[Darlene Love]

Hi there. How are you? I'm so good.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I'm so glad to see you. Hey, are you comfortable if I say your real age?

[Darlene Love]

Oh, everybody else does. Go right ahead.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Tell me, what is it?

[Darlene Love]

I will be 82 in a few months. July. I'll be 82.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, happy birthday in advance. How old do you feel? Do you feel your age?

[Darlene Love]

You know what? I feel younger than my children. And my oldest son is 62.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I'm looking at you, I have to say, what deal have you made with the devil? You look so incredible.

[Darlene Love]

Not with him, that's who. I don't make no deals with. No.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So do you love being your age?

[Darlene Love]

I really do. I didn't feel my age until my son turned 60.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Darlene Love]

I went like, when did you turn 60? How did that happen? Yeah, but I don't feel my age and I don't think I ever have because I've never had a problem with age. I feel as good or if not better than I did when I was like, in my 20s and 30s.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No kidding. Why is that?

[Darlene Love]

I think it's because I have so much energy. But I was always like my father. My father was a minister and he was always on time and always, come on, you guys, I'm waiting on you. I'm ready to go. When I wake up in the morning, I do everything in a hurry. And I've always been like that. And I think that's what it is. And I still have that same get up and go. Everybody has trouble keeping up with me. Even my husband, he says, let's go for a walk. But when I say let's go for a walk, mean a little trot, you know, let's walk.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. So you're physically active?

[Darlene Love]

Yes, I still get up at 5:30 in the morning and do a kickboxing class four days a week.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Really?

[Darlene Love]

Yes, really, really. And I'm the oldest one in the class. Of course, the class are adult ladies who are physically in pretty good shape. And I think I'm at least 20 years older than everybody in the class. But now everybody's just trying to keep up with me.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I love that. All right, you guys, you know what I think? I think Marvel should put you in the Marvel universe. I think you should be a superhero. I do.

[Darlene Love]

That would be fun. Yes.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It would be incredible. So who is a gospel superhero for you? I mean, you started in gospel when you were basically a kid, right?

[Darlene Love]

I knew everything there was about gospel because we grew up gospel. I was with Aretha Franklin when she was 16 years old, traveling with her father. We went to the churches to hear her sing, you know what I'm saying? When her dad was there. So we knew about Aretha Franklin. Were you in awe of her voice from day one? Yeah, but I never thought she. Now listen to this one. I never thought she'd be a successful secular singer.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Why?

[Darlene Love]

I just didn't think she wanted to be. Or it was something about her that she, in her head, wanted to stay in gospel because how we were all grew up, you know what I'm saying? You use your voice for the Lord, right? That's who you should be singing for. And all of those kind of make you not want to jump over. But I have two of my greatest people that I love who were gospel singers, Aretha Franklin and Sam Cooke. I mean, it don't get no better than that.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No, you certainly do not.

[Darlene Love]

He came straight out of gospel and went into secular music. You know what I'm saying? Aretha didn't. She slowly got into secular music because she was with her father. That was probably a heavier cross than she knew she was going to have to bear, because church people just have this thing in them about who you should work for. But I knew I was not going to be a gospel singer. I knew I was going to be a secular singer when nobody else knew it. Plus, I came from a background, what we call Pentecostal, where they did not listen to that kind of music. They call that the devil's music. And my father was a bishop in the organization. We had so much respect for our parents back in those days.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Darlene Love]

I wouldn't. Didn't really want to go against what he said or didn't want to go against what he believed, but he also believed that it was nothing really wrong with what I was doing. But the organization, it's just like any kind of organization that you would. You have to go along with what they say and what they do and how they do it. Well, my father was the same way. So he could not just openly sing. You can sing rock and roll music if you want to. Just go ahead on out there and do it. But he would say that privately. Go ahead, sweetheart, you can do it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And what about your mom? Was she a little more hesitant for you to do this?

[Darlene Love]

Yes, because my mother was a missionary in church. She was the first lady, you know, so she had to be more reserved than my father. Let me tell you something, and I really believe this, God help me, but the man is going to always do what he wants to do.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Darlene Love]

Whether he's the preacher, whether he's the pastor, whatever he is. But the woman always has to be.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

In her place, in second position.

[Darlene Love]

Yes. It's gotten a hundred times better today than it ever was. But back in the day, they were, like, looked on as somebody that just sit in church with their hand gloves on, with their little hat on and their purse and just sit there and be cute and not say anything.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I know that you had two marriages that ended in divorce. And given the fact that you came from this community, was that particularly difficult?

[Darlene Love]

Oh, I was going straight to hell.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, gosh. Really?

[Darlene Love]

If your husband is still alive, you Cannot remarry.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And were your parents supportive?

[Darlene Love]

My father used to say to me when I said, well, I guess I'm going to hell because I'm getting remarried. He said, don't you ever say that again. You're not going to go to hell because you remarried. Wow. So once he said that, whether he said it to me in confidence or when we were just having a personal conversation, that stuck with me. I'm not going to hell because I remarried. Oh. We had a pastor one time that would say, well, what I should have did was kill the old girl. Because they'll forgive you that and then marry somebody else afterwards.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No.

[Darlene Love]

Well, they'll forgive you for murder, but they won't forgive you for remarrying. That's crazy.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Crazy. Boy, we have your daddy to thank for a lot.

[Darlene Love]

Yes, we do. Yes, we do.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

What a great man.

[Darlene Love]

Yes, yes. Yes. They. Even when I was working with Tom Jones as a backup singer and with Dionne Warwick as a backup singer in Las Vegas, my mother and father would come to those shows. They wouldn't tell anybody they were there, but they came to those shows to see their daughter. They were very proud of me, the things that I was doing. And let's see, the thing about background, I loved singing background. That was so breathtaking for me to be a background singer for Elvis and for, you know, Tom Jones and Dionne. I worked for Dion work for 10 years.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

My goodness.

[Darlene Love]

So being around her was, like, great for me to see a superstar work and what her habits were, you know what I'm saying? So. But I saw all that, and I admired her from, you know, from a distance, because when I got with her, she was still climbing. She had reached her goal, but she was still, you know, still things she wanted to do. You know, she was a champion of doing what a woman, she thought a woman should be able to do, you know, beyond where they think you should go. Because a lot of times in our career, they think, okay, you can have a little success. But wait a minute now. You can't get ahead of us.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Who's us?

[Darlene Love]

The men. Men in our business. You know, they controlled everything.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Darlene Love]

You know, they made you who? You. They were the producers and the directors and all of those people in our business. Well, most of them still are still.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I know. Did she give you advice? Specific career advice? Dionne?

[Darlene Love]

The one thing she told me one time, don't let people stop you from being who you are. And I always remembered that, you know, because there were a lot of people that, you know, well, You're a background singer, but you could never be a solo artist, you know, and why not? I still have the solo voices in me. I just enjoy doing background. It was wonderful because I got to see what happens. Like in the movie 20ft from stardom, you see everything.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I know everything. You really do everything. And you see, you know, it's something that I want to talk to you about, because in the movie, I'm so struck. Well, let me tell you a couple things I'm struck by. First of all, the scene in the movie when you sing Lean On Me and the camera catches you because you're a very ebullient, cheerful. I mean, what I'm picking up, you emanate positivity. You have a smile on your face. But when you're singing that song, I see you pulling from a deep place, and that's why your performance is so gut, wrenchingly wonderful. I think that's so true because you're not afraid to go there as a performer. And it's breathtaking to me. Breathtaking. And the messaging of that song is sort of, in a lot of ways, the messaging of the movie Lean On Me when you're not strong. And talking about all these background singers who have big dreams and some of them fall shy of those dreams and have to reconcile that. And I think that's really because we both know. I certainly know in my career plenty of people who didn't quite get what they want. And maybe they got some of what they want, but maybe not the whole thing. And it's so wonderful how life has worked out for you and that you came to stardom at the age of 40 and you've just been going ever since. But we know these people, both of us, that haven't had that kind of success. And I wonder, what do you say to them? I'm curious. Like, can you talk about that a little bit for people who, I don't know, they have to adapt.

[Darlene Love]

You have to be so strong, but also you have to be kind.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Darlene Love]

I don't know about everybody else, but I felt I had to be strong and let people know I am strong in what I do on who I am and what I feel. But I also have to be kind, too. I don't want to strangle them to make them know this. I want them to see the kindness you have to have, too. Our business is so hard. I said so hard. Being entertainer, being a preacher, or being the president are three things you better be ready for. Because there's nothing easy about any of those, you know, you go through people telling you you've gotten too old. I mean, you got kids now. You probably need to be home now with your family. But I said, I haven't gotten to where I want to be yet. I still have time. I'm still alive. I want what I want because I have it in me to do it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Do you like to sing harmony?

[Darlene Love]

Oh, I love it. Yes, I love it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You have a total ear for it, do you not? I mean, in other words, you can harmonize without batting an eye.

[Darlene Love]

Honey, we used to laugh at Sonny Bono, who was one of my greatest friends, one of my greatest champions. Man, you are tone deaf, but I can harmonize with you. And we had so much fun at sessions. Like, when I was working with Elvis, it was just fun to be around him because he wanted to be one of you. Yeah, he didn't want to be Elvis. He just wanted to be like a background singer with you guys, you know? And most of the time it was with gospel songs. And Elvis liked what we call the hymns of the church, you know, the old songs, you know, Bless Precious Lord, Take My Hand, Lead me On, Let Me Stand. And he loved all those songs. So he would go, do you know this one? He couldn't play it on the piano or the guitar. When he'd get one of his dice, play this song, you know, and we would stay up all night, half the night, singing all these wonderful songs.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

By the way, you know, I was watching that special, the comeback special that you're on with the Blossoms, and I have to say, the way you. The three of you women negotiated those stares. Do you remember this?

[Darlene Love]

Yes.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

On the set, coming down behind him, right? And you did not look down.

[Darlene Love]

Oh, no.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And you had heels on. You had heels on. And that was. That was like an Olympic athlete move, going down those stairs, singing, not falling. I was. I was nervous thinking, oh, please don't trip. Please don't trip.

[Darlene Love]

It's amazing. We did that about 10 or 15 times. So, you know, by the time you had to do it that many times, and you do look at first, you know, but after a while, of course, you could feel that where the next step was going to be, because it was with the beat. And we weren't supposed to be seen in that special. Just sing and not be, you know, sing. Not seen.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, really?

[Darlene Love]

Because it was a choir also along with us when we were doing the background.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That's right.

[Darlene Love]

But Elvis went to the producer, said, oh, no, no, no, no, no. I want the girls in this Scene with me.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No kidding.

[Darlene Love]

He asked for us to be in that scene, so I thought that was great, too.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, it's phenomenal.

[Darlene Love]

It was a lot of things that we did with. With stars that no other background singers did or got a chance to do.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Like, what else?

[Darlene Love]

You know, we. I mean, working with Sam Cooke was wonderful. He came by my high school and picked me up and took me to a recording session with him that we were doing that day.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

He did not.

[Darlene Love]

Me and my girlfriend is only one of us, just still alive, just two of us. And we talk about that the other day, talking about. Remember that time we went by your school and picked you up from school? And I was telling everybody at school, guess who's picking me up after school? Of course, they didn't believe it until.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

They saw it, because he was already. He was already Sam Cooke at that point.

[Darlene Love]

Oh, yeah, yeah. He had already had you send me because we recorded. We're on. Everybody likes the cha cha cha, Right? Everybody likes the cha cha cha. Yeah. So we didn't. We were. And, you know, he had already had you send me, you know, so he, you know, just. The whole idea was Sam Cook, you gotta be kidding. You know, so we had a lot of wonderful times with the stars that we were working with and became friends with them. Even today. Dionne and I are still very close because our children were the same age. That's what made it really great, because she could bring her kids on the road so mine could come along too.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Of course you're close because you guys were similarly driven and also mothers and on the road. I mean, that kind of overlap doesn't happen frequently in life. That's amazing. And how lucky for you.

[Darlene Love]

No, you don't. Actually. Being successful does not happen when you start off that way because it's hard. It's really hard. You have to really believe you can do it and. And you. It's going to happen with you. I knew it was going to happen. I didn't know. I tell the Lord a lot of time. I didn't think you're going to wait till I got 45 to get this career moving, but here we are. And I still really enjoying it, really am.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It's time for a quick break, but don't worry, there's more with Darlene Love in just a bit. Everywhere you look, someone's telling you the right way to get protein, tofu, chicken, salmon powders, bars, shakes, even things like protein, water. The options are endless, and so is the noise. And honestly, most days it's overwhelming. You just want something that's quick, reliable and actually tastes good. That's where our sponsor Ratio Protein comes in. Ratio Protein yogurt has 25 grams of protein per cup. That's more protein than four eggs, making Ratio the most protein per cup in the yogurt aisle, all without any added sugar. You're getting a complete protein with all nine essential amino acids, zero grams of added sugar, and the kind of fuel that helps your body build and repair cells and tissue, all in something you can grab and eat in seconds. And if you grab the 24 ounce tub, you can stretch it even further, make it into yogurt dips, swirl it into your favorite recipes for a creamy kick, and round out your protein intake without any extra fuss. Unlike a lot of other options, Ratio Protein has a smooth and creamy texture, so there's no need to compromise. Great taste when hitting protein Go Ratio does the math so you don't have to head to ratiofood.com to find a retailer near you. You know, AT&T believes hearing a voice can change everything. It's why people love a good podcast or save voicemails from loved ones, because there's nothing like the comforting sound of a familiar voice. Who do you call when you need to recharge? Maybe it's your mom? Your sister? Your best friend from college? AT&T wants everyone to share their voice over the holidays. So send a voice note, leave a voicema. Call someone because that conversation is a chance to say something they'll hear forever. Happy holidays from AT&T. Connecting changes everything hey prime members, did you know you can listen to Wiser Than Me Ad free on Amazon Music? Download the Amazon Music app today to start listening ad free. Okay, I'm not gonna talk about food waste this time. Promise. I'm going to talk about food resources. All that uneaten food that's lazing around the landfill, tooting out greenhouse gases. It could be put to work enriching our soil or feeding our chickens. It's a valuable resource because it's still food. And the easiest and frankly way coolest way to put all its nutrients to work is with the mill food recycler. Okay, it looks like an art house garbage can. You can just toss your scraps in it like a garbage can. It's definitely not a garbage can. True. I'm a little bit obsessed. I actually even invested in this thing. But I'm not alone. Any mill owner just might corner you at a party and rhapsodize about how it's completely odorless and fully automated and how you can keep filling it for weeks. No joke, but the clincher is that you can depend on it for years. Mill is a serious machine. Think about a dishwasher, not a toaster. It's built by hand in North America and engineered by the guy who did your iPhone. But you kind of have to live with Mill to understand all the love. That's why they offer a risk free trial. Go to mill.com wiser for an exclusive offer. This episode of Wiser Than Me is brought to you by the Cancer Guard test from the makers of the cologuard test. Nearly 70% of cancers diagnosed have no routine screening, including some of the most aggressive like pancreatic, ovarian, liver, esophageal, stomach and lung cancers. Cancer Guard helps address this unmet need and complements existing recommended screening to expand the ability to help detect more cancers earlier. Cancer Guard is a simple blood test that helps screen for over 50 cancer types and subtypes even before symptoms appear. When treatment may be more effective, the Cancer Guard test helps you take proactive steps for your health with confidence and peace of mind. Talk to your doctor about Cancer Guard to see if the test is right for you or visit cancerguard.com for more information and to connect with a telehealth provider. You can also give the gift of peace of mind this holiday with a Cancer Guard gift [e-mail] org wiser this test is not recommended for individuals who have had cancer in the last three years or are pregnant. And it is not a replacement for recommended screening. The Cancer Guard test may be HSAFSA eligible. Talk about raising boys and having your career. And I heard the story when you had to take other jobs when you're working in California. This is before you moved to New York and you were a housekeeper and you had your boys then, right? You had all three boys at that point?

[Darlene Love]

I had all three boys, yes. I loved my boys. They were beautiful. My last baby boy, he was the biggest one I had. He was 10 pounds.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay, pull over. What are you saying?

[Darlene Love]

He was 10 pounds? Yes. And he was the biggest. But I had big babies. My first child was 7 pounds 14 ounces.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Darlene Love]

Then my middle one was 6 pounds 8 ounces. So I had big boys. And you know how your doctor will tell you you're gonna have a big child here and then I didn't know it was gonna be 10 pounds, 10 pounds.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That's a lot of baby to get out.

[Darlene Love]

That's a two month old baby.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You definitely need to go into the Marvel Universe. You are a superhero.

[Darlene Love]

You do well, you know what? And I loved my boys. They never. They didn't give me trouble until they got older and would find it out about drugs and, you know, hanging out and it got a little loose. That one thing almost made me stop singing because I felt that I should be home, you know, trying to help them get through this. But I always say God didn't let me because I needed to do that for me. You can only help your kids so much when you have taught them. Like I feel they were brought up the right way. Whatever the right way is for every parent. That's what I thought I had. Did all I know to do to keep them on the right track.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Who was supporting you? Did you have your mom? Was anybody helping you with them?

[Darlene Love]

My mom and my dad for a long time.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That's nice.

[Darlene Love]

But then I had to have the people that came in to live with me. A housekeeper who came to help me with the boys. And then the fathers left because I got a divorce and there was just me, the housekeeper. And the boys still had my mother and father too. They were big champions for me for taking care of my boys. And then I had to go through my sons going to prison.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, I didn't know that.

[Darlene Love]

Oh yeah. One of my sons went to prison for 12 years.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh my.

[Darlene Love]

They were on that three strike rule in California. No matter what you did, and most of the times it was about a weed, marijuana. You know, it wasn't like they killed somebody or they murdered somebody. It was weed.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And this is while you're having your career.

[Darlene Love]

Yes, exactly. Wow. Only people that really knew that were those who were close to me. Like Dionne Warwick knew, Tom Jones knew.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Uh huh.

[Darlene Love]

So we were all together as a family because everybody was having trouble with their children, you know what I'm saying?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So they offered support. They were emotionally supportive to you.

[Darlene Love]

Very. You know, it's gonna be okay. Do you need time off? You know, you want to go home? I did go home for a little while, but that didn't help. You know, it just made me more. What's the word?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Anxious?

[Darlene Love]

Yes. To can't do anything to help him. I can't get through with this.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Tell me, is he okay now?

[Darlene Love]

All of them are. They're great right now. That's what I mean, you know, like they strayed. But they also came back, you know, they came back, prison didn't get in them. And that's the most important thing. Because if they don't have a Life to come to. After they come out, they usually go back in. But they had support from me, their fathers. Even though we were divorced, they still had their father. You know, he took care of them, too. And my mother and father, thank God the last time they came out, they never went back in. So they're great guys. You know, both of my sons have their own business. You know, my baby son was a schoolteacher, you know, and, you know, life has. Now life is paying me off because I'm very comfortable about everything that's going on with my children. Matter of fact, they come and help me in my business. My son comes and drives with the flying everything. Especially now with the fly. I'm not so crazy about flying because of the pandemic and everything he comes here at. Because my work is usually at Christmas time. Of course, that's when I work nonstop. But that's the only thing I've slowed down doing. Instead of doing five shows without a day off, I have a day off before and a day off after. So, you know, you still have to try to use a little sense about this. You know, I want to do it, but I want to do it 100%. So I definitely have to take care of myself physically.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But you did. You did have a heart attack. Can you tell us about that and what adjustments you've made in your life if you have since having had the heart attack?

[Darlene Love]

I'm a junk eater. I'm a chocoholic. Yeah. Snickers. Any of the worst candy you can think of? I remember which. Each of my children, I ate a different candy. Like, I. Yeah, it was crazy.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You mean when you were pregnant? Is that what you mean?

[Darlene Love]

When I was pregnant, yes. And I would eat Snickers. I don't mean I had one Snicker and then I didn't have any for three or four days. I mean, I had three and four Snickers a day.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, my God.

[Darlene Love]

I bought them by the box. Like, 24 in a box. I get to know everybody in my grocery store. And I started. I think what really did it is when I started drinking caramel macchiatos, I was doing Hairspray on Broadway, and the place was right down the street where you could go get them, right? Yeah. So every day I would go and get one every day. And on Wednesdays and Saturdays, I had two.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Cause you had two shows.

[Darlene Love]

So for almost three years, I had that every day I worked.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Wow.

[Darlene Love]

And I think that's what gave me the heart attack. It finally, over the years of eating all the candy and all the sweets. Sugar and all of that. Sugar. And the thing about it, when I had the heart attack, I didn't even know I was having it. I was on my way to work.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And you continued to perform while having it, Am I right?

[Darlene Love]

Yes. Yes. That night. Yeah. My husband, thank God, he was in touch with the Holy Spirit. Yes. And told him to stop and get an aspirin. He gave me the aspirin. I chewed it, the pain went away. I went to work, did the show, stayed at the show, signed autographs, took pictures, the whole bit. And that night I said, yeah. Me and my husband was talking about the pain because I'd never had that kind of pain before.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Wait a minute. What kind of pain was it that you were feeling?

[Darlene Love]

A stabbing pain.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Where?

[Darlene Love]

Right smack dab. Exactly where your bra. If you have on a wire bra where it meets, that's exactly where it was.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Got it.

[Darlene Love]

And I was sick all day. I had a stomachache.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Darlene Love]

They're telling you years ago, if you're having a heart attack, it's your arm or whatever.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. By the way, I just want to point something out. Those are symptoms for men who are having a heart attack.

[Darlene Love]

Yes.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Women having a heart attack, their symptoms present differently. And I love that. That was, you know, the push. Everybody understood, well, I'm not having pain in my arm, so I'm fine. I'm fine. It's just a stomachache or it's a cramp.

[Darlene Love]

Yes.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Darlene Love]

It was an uncomfortable feeling, like you wanted to. Whatever you had in your stomach, you wanted it to come. Come out. And that. That's what I was having all day. Anything I would eat, even water, would want to come back up.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Wow.

[Darlene Love]

Went to the doctor the next day. I still didn't have any pain, but when he hooked me up to everything, he knew I was having a heart attack. He said, you sure you're not feeling anything? I said, I feel no pain. I don't feel anything. So when he sent me to the specialist, which was literally right across the hall, he said, did you come by yourself? I said, no, my husband brought me. He said, go home, get a bag. I will meet you at the hospital at 10. We will be operating on you at 12. And I'm going, what? Wait a minute, what's going now? I really want to have a heart attack because. What are you talking about here? This is not how you have a heart attack. I mean, I got to call my sister, my children. I got to call my pastor. I got to, you know, to let them Know, I'm going into the hospital because I'm having heart attack. Wow. Wow, wow. That quick.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You know, I think your husband might have saved your life without aspirin.

[Darlene Love]

No. He did. No, no, no. The doctor said your husband saved your life.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But now you've been married for many decades, correct?

[Darlene Love]

Yes. 38 years.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well done, you.

[Darlene Love]

Well, you know what I told Cher? I told her, I said, listen, I had to do three times to get it right.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So what'd you get right? Give us some tips. Tell me how you've done it. What's right about this? Really?

[Darlene Love]

You know what happened? I met him on the cruise ship. This is when my life was in one of them struggling things. You know what? Okay. I'm really tired. When is this going to happen? I know it's going to happen for me, but I'm still struggling. And I met my third husband. He was the chief steward on board the Carnival Cruise Line.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Was it love at first sight?

[Darlene Love]

No, I liked him. I said, he's kind of cute, you know, he has beautiful brown eyes. Anyway, what made us really get together, he ignored me. Oh, really? And I said, I'm not having this.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So you. Did you make the first move?

[Darlene Love]

Yes. He asked me to tell this story because he doesn't want anybody to think he didn't make the first move. I said, no, I made the first move. I said, what's wrong with you? Don't you like me? But then you're old enough, so you don't really care, you know, I wasn't looking for no man. I wasn't looking for. It was. My career was on now. Forget y'. All. The kids are grown now. Y' all got your life. It's all about mom now. And I'm going to get it. So I really wasn't interested in finding anybody. And he just snuck right in.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And then how soon after that? Like, how long did you court? And then what happened?

[Darlene Love]

For a year and a half. We started dating in 83. We got married in 84, moved to New York, and my career took off.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So the stars aligned for you, right then, both ways.

[Darlene Love]

For my husband, for my married personal life.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Darlene Love]

And for my career. Because this husband that I'm married to now understood what I was doing, and he was interested in me getting my career where I. He knew where I was. I was having a hard time getting my career going. And with him, he wanted to help me build.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

He was your champion? Yes.

[Darlene Love]

He wanted to help me build my career.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Just like your dad. I like that.

[Darlene Love]

Exactly. Exactly.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Hello, There, wiser than Mears. It's Julia jumping in here. Okay, so at this point, we realized that Darlene's microphone was actually moving around a lot. Which is kind of ironic because of all the amazing guests we've had on this show, Darlene Love is by far the best with a microphone, obviously. So please bear with this shitty audio for the next couple of minutes. Thanks. I think we have to pause because there's an issue with your mic, I'm being told.

[Darlene Love]

I think that's what's going on and I don't know what it is. If we give me like three minutes here to three minutes to set it, because I think they want fix it so it will stop moving.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Where are you, though?

[Darlene Love]

I'm in Rockland County, New York.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, in New York.

[Darlene Love]

And where are you?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I'm in Santa Barbara, California.

[Darlene Love]

Oh, I know exactly where that is.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Darlene Love]

I was born and raised in Los Angeles.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I know you were. Do you miss it?

[Darlene Love]

Not at all.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Uh huh.

[Darlene Love]

I did it first because I never liked New York. I never liked, liked back east. I loved working here, but I never thought I would live here.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

What made you make that change?

[Darlene Love]

I tell this story to Stevie Van Zandt every time I see him. You are the reason I live in New York.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Really.

[Darlene Love]

He saw me at a show in California and he said, I want you to come to New York. I want to record you. Him and Bruce had just finished doing something and they saw my show and he said, well, if I get you a job, would you come? I went, sure, give me a job, I'll come. He got me two jobs actually. And I came here and I found out I had a life here, a career here, because I never worked here as Darling Love. I mainly just worked here as a backup singer, you know, for all the people that I've worked with. Mostly the beginning of my career. I didn't start my solo career until I turned 40. So I say, I tell these people, don't even worry about age if you got it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, yeah. I hope that we. I don't know if. Are we recording all of this still? Even though. Wait a minute.

[Darlene Love]

Yep, we're recording.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Good. I want to make sure.

[Darlene Love]

Because nobody believes what we go through. You know, they think you just turn.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

A button and then it's done and you have all these geniuses working behind the scenes.

[Darlene Love]

Okay. I think we're in way better shape now.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Thank you so much for your help. So you were talking about how the reason you live in New York is because of Stevie Van Zant. Right, yes. Do you mind telling that story and how it is you're in New York and how this happened to you in your career? And then we'll go back. So I'm coming at your career sort.

[Darlene Love]

Of through the back door and then coming back to the front.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Gosh.

[Darlene Love]

Literally, you know, I tell my husband all the time, you know, literally my career started here in New York because I had never worked in New York before as Darling Love. And I worked at this club called the Bottom Line. That's where Stevie Van Zant got me my first job, which I loved. So I got to know the manager and everybody that works there. So it was wonderful.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And how old were you then?

[Darlene Love]

40. 40 years old.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay, right.

[Darlene Love]

That's why I say, listen, it's never too late. Don't let people talk to you about age. If you still got it, if you can still sing, if you still have that energy, don't worry about it. People, they'll come along with you eventually. Because that's actually what happened in New York. Alan Pepper, who owned the club, started putting newspaper articles in. Darling Love is working tonight. She'll be here through Wednesday or Thursday, whatever. So the press started coming to my shows. I see. And that's literally how it happened. Now, you figure almost 40 years ago, the press wasn't anything like they are today.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right. This is pre Twitter, pre everything.

[Darlene Love]

Yep.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Pre social media.

[Darlene Love]

Right. So there was a lady, you might know her. I love her. Her name was Sue Simmons. Oh, yes. She used to do what we call Live at faze, live at 5.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I know it well because I was working at 30 Rock at the time.

[Darlene Love]

Ah, yes.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Was it Chuck Scarborough?

[Darlene Love]

Yes, Chuck Scarborough. He's still on. That's right. Matter of fact.

[Judith Bowles]

I know.

[Darlene Love]

Can you imagine? And he looks.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes, he does. He hasn't changed. In fact, I remembered I was in New York and I saw him and I, I on television. I was like, wow. He's like, this is like a time machine or something.

[Darlene Love]

Exactly, yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I remember Sue Simmons well, she actually retired.

[Darlene Love]

But during this time, she would always have me on her show. Like I was her next door neighbor. Come on down and be on the show. Or I'd be. I was doing the David Letterman show then. So we were like next door to one another. So whenever I'd go to do David's show, I just passed by sue and just say, hey, what's going on? And she started sending people down to the show to see me. She said, you gotta see this lady. She's crazy. It's unbelievable. At her age, what she's doing. I was doing two shows a night. When you worked at the Bottom Line back then, you did an 8 o' clock and a midnight show.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh.

[Darlene Love]

So she started sending people down. Then the press started coming to see me. So they started talking about Darlene Love. And the more I work there, the more people, you know, the first couple of shows I did were like, kind of spacey, you know, wasn't a whole lot of people there. I think that room holds like 300 people.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Darlene Love]

But by the time I finished working, you couldn't get into the show.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Really?

[Darlene Love]

Really. It's just amazing how my career took off when I got to New York.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. We'll be back with Darlene Love right after this quick break. At a certain age, you suddenly realize the importance of keeping your body strong. That's why it's easy to understand why so many people are talking about protein goals. It keeps your bones sturdy, helps you keep the muscle you've worked for and is great for recovery after you exercise. The good news is Ratio protein yogurt has your back with 25 grams of protein per cup. Ratio is serving up more protein per cup than any other yogurt in the dairy aisle, plus zero added sugar. To put it into perspective, 25 grams of protein is more protein than four whole eggs. With ratio, you're getting a complete protein with all nine essential amino acids, zero grams of added sugar, and the kind of fuel that helps your body build and repair cells and tissue. All you can grab and eat in seconds. And unlike a lot of other high protein options, Ratio protein has a smooth and creamy texture, so there's no need to compromise. Great taste when hitting protein goals, use ratio to make a high protein breakfast bowl, a creamy dip for your next get together, or throw it on top of your favorite dinner recipe to sneak a little more protein into every dish. Ratio does the math so you don't have to head to ratiofood.com to find a retailer near you. You know, AT&T believes hearing a voice can change everything. And if you love podcasts, you get it. The power of hearing someone speak is unmatched. It's why we save those voicemails from our loved ones. They mean something, you know? Who do you call when you need a little one on one holiday boost? Maybe it's your best friend who lives across the country or your aunt who always seems to have the exact advice you need to hear. Or how about when you need to get hyped up for something big? Perhaps you call up Your work bestie who's known for giving a pep talks. AT&T knows the holidays are the perfect time to do just that. Share your voice. If it's been a while since you called someone who matters, now's the time. Because it's more than just a conversation. It's a chance to say something they'll hear forever. So spread a little love with the call this season. Happy holidays from AT&T. Connecting changes everything. Your big break when you were younger. Younger was with Phil Spector, essentially. Right. But that was a double edged sword, was it not?

[Darlene Love]

If you could make the sword bigger. Yes, that was a double.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

A big, big, double edged sword, right?

[Darlene Love]

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And then he changed your name from Darlene Wright to Darlene Love, right?

[Darlene Love]

Yes.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And in 1962, you recorded he's a Rebel, but your name wasn't on the record and you knew that he had removed your name. And he did this many times.

[Darlene Love]

Right.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

How did you process the, I assume, anger that you had towards Phil and come out the other side of it?

[Darlene Love]

I never tried to carry hate. Now, there is a big difference in hating somebody and just didn't like what they're doing to you. Mm. I think if you don't let it get in for me, if you don't let it get into hating somebody, because I hating somebody makes it only worse.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right?

[Darlene Love]

But I disliked what he was doing to me.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But didn't you get angry?

[Darlene Love]

Yes, I got very angry, but it never turned into hate. I disliked him. I despised him for using me, you know, And I was always that one that would tell him, I said, you're just using me. What the hell? You know, I don't get this. I've done nothing wrong. I just want to be a singer. I want my career and you can give me that. I think that's what I really disliked about him. He could have given me a gigantic career.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And he withheld that from you?

[Darlene Love]

All of that. Every time I would succeed, he would be there to put his foot in the way. When I was doing television show, the producers of the TV show, man, this is the biggest show on television. It's about singers. Why don't you record Darlene? This is nuts. This doesn't make sense. I don't. I can do. I don't want to be bothered right now with her. Her. He would not record me. The whole time I was under the contract to him while I was on shindig, he was that foot that was always in the way, you know, like annoying something. Like a annoying Fly. I think everybody has been annoyed by the Fly. You could almost like.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Darlene Love]

If I could just. But I wouldn't let myself go to his level to hate him. I see. But I. Oh, I was your.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That's your superpower right there. That's your strength.

[Darlene Love]

It is. But I disliked every. Cause I wasn't. I was able. Now that I really wanted a career. Now I was able to get one. All you gotta do is put the records out under my name and then make em a kit. That's what you did for the Ronettes. You did that for the Crystals, but you did it for the Righteous Brothers.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

When did you decide to sue him? Cause you did sue him.

[Darlene Love]

I finally did sue him. Because if it had not been for these. There is a gentleman, his name is Reuben, that he takes care of getting royalties for singers.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

He's here.

[Darlene Love]

He was here. He passed not too long ago, but he lives here. And he said, I can do this for you. I can get your royalties. But by then I just figured I'd never want to really sue Phil Speck. Nobody wanted to take him on.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Darlene Love]

He was a snake in the grass. People were scared of him.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Darlene Love]

I said, that little shrimp. Why are you scared of him? What can he do to you? He could have did a lot, but I just figured what. You know. And I said, okay, let's sue him. And we sued him. And he was so shocked that I won because nobody has ever sued Phil Spector and won.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I love that you are the one who did it. I really do.

[Darlene Love]

At that point, it didn't even matter about the money because then the law would only let me sue.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It was a symbolism.

[Darlene Love]

That's it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Darlene Love]

Yeah. Because the law would only let me sue for certain things, not just for royalties. Because my songs were in movies, you know, that I couldn't get paid for.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I'll tell you, against all odds, and here you are. I mean, I feel like I'm totally in awe of you.

[Darlene Love]

You know what? It's. This business is a great business, too. It can alleviate a lot of stress when I'm on the stage.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It's impossible, too.

[Darlene Love]

Yeah. Oh, definitely impossible.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

When you're on stage, everything else falls away. Am I right, Darlene?

[Darlene Love]

Exactly right. I can go on stage mad, you know, mad about something, that something happened. That's why the people around me are really great. Because they won't say anything negative to me before I go on stage.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I would hope not.

[Darlene Love]

But the thrill when I do a show, my greatest shows are when I'm angry and When I get off. Yeah. And when I get off the stage, the band is like, wow, who is you mad at? Really? And it's so much fun. I want my audience to feel what I'm feeling every time I'm on stage and they come to me after show is over and things that I get on Facebook, what they say. But I felt like I was in your living room and you were just singing just to me. And then I go, I was.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, God bless you.

[Darlene Love]

It's such a joy to be able to use the gift that God's had given you. And believe you me, he gives it to you and he wants you to use it. Yes, he really does. I told my girlfriend the other day, I said, he shows you the beginning and he shows you the end, but he don't show you all the crap you got to go through to get to the end.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So we've been talking for such a long time. I've loved every second of talking to you. I just, I really, I'm so honored to talk to you. Let me ask you a couple other really little quick questions. Is there anything that you would tell yourself at 21? Anything that you, from this vantage point now, here you are 81 years old. Is there something you wish your 21 year old self had known?

[Darlene Love]

You know, I really do wish. I, you know, you always say you wish, you know, back then, what you know now.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Darlene Love]

But I don't think it would have happened because those are wishes and dreams. We want to be in our dream. We want to dream, we want to have wishes. I think if you don't have them, you won't appreciate life the way life is supposed to be.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right, Right.

[Darlene Love]

So I try not to think hard about what happened because they weren't great years for me, you know, from the age of knowing, say 10, 15 years of age along the way. Those weren't great years for me because they were trying years for me. They were trying to get over trying to prove, you know, and not just family, you know, and then you have the family. I'm not talking about my children. I'm talking about my, my brothers, my sisters, you know, the church. If I would have paid attention to all of that, I would have never been who I am today.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Darlene Love]

Because they taught us not to be that type of person. Right. Which to me was always like, but why? What's wrong with it? We don't all have to be nuts to be in this business.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Darlene Love]

We don't have to fall in the traps.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Darlene Love]

And you didn't you know, I've been. I've been taught. And I thank God for all those learnings that I learned back then. We didn't. Because the traps was there. I mean, forget Las Vegas. I mean, it was so many opportunities to be a bad girl and do all the things to really. Where you think, this is what I really want. I want to have money. I'm a man. I want power. I want fine houses and all of that. Yeah, no, those are trappings.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

What's the best business advice that you ever received?

[Darlene Love]

Hmm? I can always go back to Dion.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Tell me.

[Darlene Love]

The best advice you ever gave me is like. Like, you know, she called me Doll. My nickname was Dolly Doll. Whatever it is you want to do, you just have to. You have to find a way to do it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Just do it.

[Darlene Love]

There's no miracle. There is no special something. You know what I mean? You just believe you can do it, and you. And you do it. And I. That's proven over time, because whenever I got stuck, I would always say, I can do this. It's not too hard for me to do this. I can get over this. I can't do it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I will do this. I will do this. This has been the most joyful conversation, and you are an inspiration to me and to everybody in the world. I can confidently say that. Thank you for being here, and I give you my love.

[Darlene Love]

Love.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And thank you.

[Darlene Love]

Thank you so much, Julia. It has been a wonderful time with you. God bless.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

God bless you.

[Darlene Love]

Bye. Bye. Bye.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, how much fun was that? Oh, there's so much to tell my mom. I'm going to zoom her right now.

[Judith Bowles]

Hello. Hi, Mom. Hi, sweet.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

There you are.

[Darlene Love]

Up.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You went away. Okay, come back. There you are. Now you're muted.

[Judith Bowles]

How can I be muted?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No, no. Now I can hear you. Now I can hear you, so. Hi, Mommy. So I just ended a conversation with Darlene Love, and she is the. A very remarkable person.

[Judith Bowles]

I saw her in the. You know, the backup singer.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes. 20ft from stardom.

[Judith Bowles]

Exactly 20ft. I never can remember how many feet. But the backup singers, it just struck me as being so remarkable.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Absolutely remarkable. She said when she's on stage, everything just falls away. I kind of got that. You know what I mean? For me, that's exactly the same, too. You know, when the engine is really firing, everything definitely falls away. But I have to tell a story about myself. I don't know if I've ever actually told you this, so back in the 80s, I was in this Woody Allen movie, Hannah and her Sisters. I had A very small role. I played a production assistant on Woody Allen's show. This is within the film. And he was like the director or the showrunner or something, and I was the production assistant. And we're shooting a scene in which Woody Allen thinks that he has a brain tumor and he thinks he's hearing things, but he's also the director of the film, by the way. And so we roll camera. I'm supposed to cross the camera, which means walk across the set. And then Woody says, wait a minute. Does anybody hear that? That was the line he was supposed to say. And so we did it. And they roll camera and they go, action. I start to walk across, and Woody goes, wait a minute. And I stop my tracks, and I go, yeah, what? And he goes, no, no, no, that's the line. And I go, oh, my God. You can imagine. I mean, Mom, I was like. Like, I was, like, 23 years old, and this happened. I was, like, so humiliated. And everybody laughed. And so we go back to one. Roll camera. Action. I start to cross. Woody goes, wait a minute. And I stopped in my tracks again. I did it again a second time. I did so. Talk about things falling away. I mean, that was an experience where I was just completely out of my mind being in this movie.

[Judith Bowles]

Let me tell you something. But you gotta laugh.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I gotta laugh. It wasn't a good one, though, Mom. It wasn't a good one.

[Judith Bowles]

No, I know it wasn't. But let me tell you, when you were four and you were in your dance class and everybody was. Got to look through the little window, the little circular window on the door, because we couldn't go in, the moms couldn't go in. We took turns looking. So when I was looking, you were going, run, run. The class was going, run, run, run, leap. Run, run, run, leap. And so you kept. Your turn came and you went, run, leap, run. The. Everybody started to laugh. He liked it.

[Darlene Love]

I mean.

[Judith Bowles]

I mean, you know, whatever your world was.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I will tell you, Woody Allen made a joke at my expense after that. I can't remember what he did, but he said some comment about how I kept screwing it up and every. And. And then he got a laugh. So it wasn't quite the happiest ending ever. But anyway, this woman has had a remarkable life.

[Judith Bowles]

I'm so happy that you. I'm so happy that you had a chance to talk to her and that. That she was. That you've got the sort of arc of her life.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Judith Bowles]

Such remarkable women that you have been in touch with and. And Each of these is. Goes in like a pet pill.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

A what pill?

[Judith Bowles]

A pet pill. No, you know what I mean? In other words, and when I feel old and tired and so forth, and, you know, but then you get sense of other people's lives being so adventuresome and energetic, and it's like, oh, yeah, come on.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Judith Bowles]

That's what I mean by a pet pill. I mean, we can. We can do that for each other, but I think that these. These women must have inner strength that is practiced.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. She's squeezing every ounce out of life that she can.

[Judith Bowles]

Oh, God bless her. I'm so glad. I'm so glad. It's good news in just the right way.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, I know. So go listen to some Darlene Love music.

[Judith Bowles]

Oh, I'm going to do that in Mead in Meadow. So anyway, thank you, Levy, for doing this. I'm so happy that you're garnering all this wisdom, and I hope you're keeping notes.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I'm trying to keep notes, but we have transcripts, so we can just read the transcripts. Yes. Okay, Mommy, I'm going to jump off.

[Judith Bowles]

Okay.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I love you so much.

[Judith Bowles]

Keep up the good work. Toodaloo.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Toodaloo. There's more Wiser Than Me with Lemonada Premium subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content. Subscribe now and Apple Podcasts. Wiser Than Me is a production of Lemonada Media, created and hosted by me, Julia Louis Dreyfus. The show is produced by Chrissy Pease, Alex McGowan and Oha Lopez. Brad hall is a consulting producer. Producer. Our senior editor is Tracy Clayton. Rachel Neal is our senior director of new content and our VP of weekly production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Stephanie Whittles, Wax, Jessica Cordova, Kramer, Paula Kaplan, and me. The show is mixed by Kat Yourr and Johnny Vince Evans and music by Henry hall, who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music. Special thanks thanks to Charlotte Christman Cohen and of course, my mother, Judith Bowles. Follow Wiser Than Me wherever you get your podcasts. And hey, if there's an old lady in your life, listen up.