A Conversation About Anxiety with Blair Linne

Summary

With The Perrys: "A Conversation About Anxiety" with Blair Linne

Date: December 1, 2025
Hosts: Preston Perry & Jackie Hill Perry
Guest: Blair Linne

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Episode Overview

This heartfelt and honest episode dives into the complex subject of anxiety, trauma, and faith through conversation with poet and author Blair Linne. Sharing personal stories of panic attacks, childhood tragedy, and sudden loss, Blair, Preston, and Jackie explore how anxiety has shaped their lives, their dependence on God, the value of therapy, and what it means to find peace in Christ amidst fear and uncertainty. The episode also highlights Blair's new book, Made to Tremble: How Anxiety Became the Best Thing That Ever Happened to My Faith, inviting listeners to contemplate the intersection of mental health and spiritual growth.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Roots of Anxiety: Personal Stories & Early Experiences

• Blair's Childhood Trauma:

  • Blair shares (07:13–10:39) that her struggles with anxiety began long before she recognized them, rooted in early childhood trauma—her mother's incarceration, caring for an infant brother who died of SIDS at 13, and the lack of emotional processing after this loss.
  • Quote:
    “There was no one there to process that with me. And so I just went on living my life. ... When I would smell the scent of my brother, it was like it kind of haunted me.” — Blair, [09:34]

• Unacknowledged Patterns:

  • Through therapy, Blair realized that what looked like “first” panic attacks were actually part of a long history—biting nails as a child, hyperventilating at school—all signs of early anxiety.

The Impact of Sudden Trauma and Delayed Anxiety

• Blair’s Car Accident and Panic Attacks:

  • Blair recounts (07:54–19:44) a car accident that triggered her first recognized panic attack and a subsequent period of debilitating anxiety.
  • Quote:
    “A week later as I was driving ... I felt like, I can't breathe, it spiraled me into a panic attack.” — Blair, [07:54]

• Delayed Bodily Responses:

  • Anxiety may not emerge immediately after trauma; for Blair, symptoms came days later when driving or recounting the accident, illustrating that anxiety can be both physiological and psychological.

Therapy, Faith, and The Christian Stigma

• Therapy as Common Grace:

  • All three discuss the importance of therapy alongside discipleship, especially for trauma processing (14:22–16:33).
  • Quote:
    “We are a whole being. ... God has graciously given us common grace as well. And I think within that category, there are things that can help us...like therapy, like counselors.” — Blair, [14:22]

• Therapy Provides Language for Repentance:

  • Andrew shares how therapy helped him identify triggers and deeper wounds, echoing Blair’s experience:
    “Therapy doesn’t necessarily give me the language to repent... but it gives me the language for repentance.” — Andrew, [14:16]

The Physiology and Triggers of Panic Attacks

• How Trauma Returns in the Body:

  • The conversation (16:49–19:48) connects unresolved grief and trauma to panic attacks, often triggered by new connections or stressful events in adulthood.
  • Quote:
    “Anxiety is the body speaking...it’s the body telling us, I can't take anymore.” — Blair, [16:33]

• Triggers May Not Be Conscious:

  • The hosts note (22:03–26:24) that panic attacks often arise without conscious thought about trauma—the body “keeps the score.”

Different Kinds of Fear: Natural, Sinful, and Religious

• Puritan Insights:

  • Blair references John Flavel’s categories of fear (natural, sinful, religious) and how trauma often triggers natural fear, which only becomes sinful when it morphs into obsessive control.
  • Quote:
    “I think what I do in the book is I talk about three different types of fear from a puritan, John Flavel. ... Natural fear, sinful fear, and religious fear.” — Blair, [26:24]

• Desire for Control:

  • Sinful anxiety emerges when we try to “play God” for ourselves and our loved ones, rooted in fear of loss and need for control.

Grief, Sudden Loss, and The Church’s Response

• The Special Weight of Sudden Grief:

  • Andrew shares (29:54–31:05) repeated experiences of sudden loss—the murder of family members and friends—leading to deep anxiety and fear of future loss.
  • Blair discusses the church’s struggle to comfort people well, contrasting human and divine tenderness.
  • Quote:
    “God is tender. Whether it's a drawn out loss or a sudden loss, our God is tender.” — Blair, [31:05]

• Don’t Shame the Anxious:

  • Citing Job, Blair urges Christians not to condemn those who struggle with anxiety (31:05–32:02).

The Path from Anxiety to Deeper Faith

• Scripture’s Prescription for Anxiety:

  • Blair emphasizes reading familiar scriptures (like Philippians 4:6) in context:
    • Recognizing that “be anxious for nothing” is not condemnation, but an invitation to bring cares to God through prayer and thanksgiving (34:35–36:24).
    • Quote:
      “Thanksgiving helps you remember who your God is, how he's brought you through in the midst of your difficulty.” — Blair, [36:14]

• Peace is a Person, Not a Feeling:

  • True peace, they agree, is found in Christ’s presence, not in perfect circumstances (39:35–40:44).
  • Quote:
    “Peace is a person. ... It has to be who's with me, that even if another deer comes, I serve the God who's over the deer.” — Blair, [39:35]

• Theology of God Amidst Fear:

  • Preston links peace and security to knowing God's character, not mere emotional assurance (41:06–41:27).

Vulnerability, Suffering, and Spiritual Fruit

• Affliction Leading to Dependence:

  • The group meditates on 2 Corinthians 4:7–10, reflecting on how human weakness exposes God’s strength (43:49–44:43).
  • Quote:
    “Anything that reveals your humanity and then exposes or reveals God's divinity ... you have to say, okay, you're working good.” — Blair, [44:02]

• Fruit From Suffering:

  • Anxiety, when surrendered to God, produces comfort for others, depth in family and church, and a reliance on Christ (47:09–48:23).

Coping Mechanisms vs. True Peace

• Temporary vs. True Peace:

  • The team contrasts unhealthy coping (e.g., substance use) with the sustaining peace of Christ (50:15–51:45):
    • “Any of those things ... it's only temporary. ... It's not just getting rid of the anxiety. ... It's finding the Lord and trusting that he's going to be with you, even if he has you trembling the rest of your life.” — Blair, [51:45]

• Embracing the Worst, Trusting God:

  • Preston, referencing Tim Keller, says peace comes when you trust that even the worst will not break you, so long as God is with you (52:57–53:05).

Practical Strategies for Peace and Rest

• Rest and Meditation:

  • Blair advocates (57:24–60:16) for intentional rest and soaking in scripture, poetry, and music as means to direct the mind toward truth, even when meditation feels impossible during anxious moments.
  • Quote:
    “Let’s stop. Why? Because we’re human. ... We can’t do it all. We were never meant to bear it all.” — Blair, [57:29]

• Nature as a Means of Grace:

  • The group discusses (61:19–63:52) the spiritual and psychological benefits of spending time in creation:
    • “God actually, like, created the world beautiful. ... Take advantage of all the things that God created.” — Andrew, [62:59]

Closing Exhortation: The Unshakable Kingdom

• Blair’s Encouragement & Scripture:
  • Reading Hebrews 12:14–29 (64:14–68:31), Blair urges anxious listeners to reflect on the unshakable kingdom of God, Christ’s finished work, and the reality that God is with them in every fear.
  • Quote:
    “The king in that kingdom is a God who never trembles, who's not anxious, right? ... My encouragement ... is to know that God can be with you right there.” — Blair, [67:56]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Anxiety is the body speaking...I can't take anymore.” — Blair, [16:33]
• “Therapy doesn’t necessarily give me the language to repent... but it gives me the language for repentance.” — Andrew, [14:16]
• “Peace is a person. ... Even if another deer comes, I serve the God who’s over the deer.” — Blair, [39:35]
• “Anything that reveals your humanity...and exposes or reveals God’s divinity, allows you to cling to him even more...what you’re doing in the midst of it is good.” — Blair, [44:02]
• “True things, we want to hold fast to that which is true. But also we want to know that God reveals the truth. As I said, truth is a person. Capital T in Jesus.” — Blair, [58:05]
• “God is tender. Whether it’s a drawn out loss or a sudden loss, our God is tender.” — Blair, [31:05]
• “We have a kingdom that cannot be shaken ... the king in that kingdom is a God who never trembles, who’s not anxious.” — Blair, [67:56]

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Important Timestamps

• Blair’s early life & trauma: [07:13–10:39]
• Therapy & Christian stigma: [14:16–16:33]
• Delay and triggers in anxiety: [18:18–19:44]
• Physiological vs. rational fear: [22:03–22:21]
• Different kinds of fear (Flavel): [26:24–28:51]
• Discussion of sudden trauma: [29:54–32:02]
• Scripture and real peace: [34:35–36:24]
• Peace is a person: [39:35–40:44]
• 2 Corinthians 4 ("jars of clay"): [43:48–44:43]
• Coping: peace vs. vices: [50:15–51:45]
• Rest & meditation on truth: [57:24–60:16]
• Nature as therapy: [61:19–63:52]
• Hebrews 12 encouragement: [64:14–68:31]

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Final Exhortation

Blair closes with comforting reflections on God’s sovereignty, Christ’s compassion in Gethsemane, and encouragement for listeners to encounter true, unshakable peace—not in fixing anxiety, but in trusting Christ’s presence, even amidst trembling.

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If you’re anxious, grieving, or feeling alone in your struggle, this episode offers both practical tools and deep spiritual comfort, reminding you that, in Christ, you are never abandoned and never without true hope.

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For more on Blair Linne’s journey and wisdom, check out her book, "Made to Tremble."

Transcript

[Justin Perry]

Foreign. It's the Saints and the A. It's the Saints and the A. Classic.

[Andrew Perry]

It's the Saints in the end.

[Justin Perry]

You got to get on key.

[Andrew Perry]

I am on key.

[Justin Perry]

You're not.

[Andrew Perry]

Okay.

[Justin Perry]

It's the Saints and the A. Closer. Yeah, I don't want to.

[Andrew Perry]

I wonder how many people have become saints.

[Justin Perry]

That would encourage me.

[Andrew Perry]

This podcast, like, they. They sung that song and they. On the other side, they said the.

[Justin Perry]

Holy Spirit added an S. I was an A and now I'm a saint.

[Blair Wingo]

Huh.

[Justin Perry]

So now I'm fine.

[Andrew Perry]

Because you've been singing that song for a good, what, five years?

[Justin Perry]

It's been. It's been a minute.

[Andrew Perry]

It's been a minute. I just kind of feel like this is really random. I just kind of feel like when you buy nice hats because you just.

[Justin Perry]

Looked at the hat before you said.

[Andrew Perry]

Something, especially if it's my hometown, that you should like, bother buy for me because it's like a Chicago Bears hat and it's nice.

[Justin Perry]

So you would have preferred if I.

[Andrew Perry]

Saw this hat and didn't be like, man, it's nice. But Preston was born there.

[Justin Perry]

I bought you a Chicago hat.

[Andrew Perry]

You did, But I like that hat a lot.

[Justin Perry]

You can have this.

[Andrew Perry]

Oh, thank you.

[Justin Perry]

You get on my neck.

[Andrew Perry]

I love you.

[Blair Wingo]

I love you.

[Justin Perry]

Okay, you can have it when I'm done. I wanted to say something spiritual, but I don't need to because Blair Blend is here.

[Andrew Perry]

Blair Lynn, everybody.

[Justin Perry]

Clapping up for Blair Lynn.

[Blair Wingo]

Thanks, guys.

[Justin Perry]

So we met her when she was Blair Wingo.

[Blair Wingo]

I do.

[Andrew Perry]

I was just about to say that. So, like, I. And I love your husband, Shaan. One of the dopest Christian rappers.

[Blair Wingo]

Sh sh.

[Andrew Perry]

One of the dopest Christian rappers of all time. One of the dopest lyricists of all time. And it's no disrespect to him, cuz he knows how much I respect him. But every time I.

[Justin Perry]

He's the reason I'm a rapper. Have I ever told that story? I don't wanna interrupt.

[Andrew Perry]

Yo, you haven't told that story in a long time. But he's the one who, you know, that I was.

[Blair Wingo]

I don't know.

[Justin Perry]

Well, I don't know. I just know we was in Chicago. I don't know what I did. I might did one song with Humble Beasts or something, and Shy was there for like a conference I think we was doing with Grip and he was like, I think you need to pursue rapping.

[Blair Wingo]

Wow.

[Justin Perry]

And I was like, huh? And if Shy Lynn said, I just felt like the Lord had to be talking. So I was like, okay, okay.

[Blair Wingo]

Yeah.

[Andrew Perry]

That man know what he be talking about. He text us one. I feel like the Lord, I ain't gonna say what he said, but he gave us a word, and we took heed to that word. For sure. For sure, for sure.

[Blair Wingo]

Praise God.

[Andrew Perry]

But we thank God for y'.

[Blair Wingo]

All.

[Andrew Perry]

But I was gonna say, you know, like, we met you years ago.

[Justin Perry]

Yeah.

[Andrew Perry]

We were babes in Christ, children. And what people don't know is a lot of people don't know if you could believe it or not, people who watch our podcast. A lot of people don't know we started off doing poetry.

[Blair Wingo]

Are you kidding?

[Andrew Perry]

A lot of people don't know that. Like, they meet us and be like, you do the podcast, and they don't know that we had a whole life of spoken word poetry.

[Justin Perry]

Yes.

[Blair Wingo]

But you.

[Andrew Perry]

Blair Wingo at was probably one of our first inspirations in Christian poetry. I mean, she was like the first viral Christian poet.

[Blair Wingo]

Yeah.

[Justin Perry]

Yeah.

[Andrew Perry]

And so, like, your poems, you know, I have words for you.

[Justin Perry]

Yes.

[Andrew Perry]

And allow me to reintroduce the Christ were just very, very big inspirations for all the people coming up. And so I think you just. God really used you to pave a way to be like, man, this is actually ministry. Like, I can actually glorify the Lord in my creative wr. And not just creative writing, but spoken word performance poetry. And so God used you. You were kind of like the Moses.

[Blair Wingo]

Wow.

[Andrew Perry]

You prepared away.

[Justin Perry]

Okay.

[Andrew Perry]

So I just want to give you your flowers. You know what I'm saying? You really inspired us a lot back in the day.

[Blair Wingo]

I appreciate that. It's crazy, too, to think because you used to stay on our couch, and now I'm on your couch.

[Justin Perry]

That's so funny.

[Blair Wingo]

Yeah.

[Justin Perry]

People don't know that I live with you for a brief second before you. I think you left la.

[Blair Wingo]

Yes.

[Justin Perry]

But it was funny because Blair is so. What's the word? You're like, you know, the same demure. Like, you're. You're like Claire Huxtable. Like, it gives. Like, so when she rebukes, it's given in the same way, but it still hurt, you know, for example, you was on. I was on the couch. I was probably 19, so I had been in Christ maybe six months. And you were eating some cereal. I don't know what you said.

[Blair Wingo]

I do not remember this. You don't remember?

[Justin Perry]

It was so minor. And you were talking about people being late, and you were like, it wasn't. You weren't rebuking me. But it was convicting. You were like, a lot of times people are late to something, and they said, oh, traffic made me late. When it was just, you weren't a good steward of your time. I was like, dang. Because in my mind, it was like, she was. I hadn't heard up until that point. People get at the motives of things. It was kind of like, nah, you're not late because of traffic. You late because you ain't leave on time because you was on the phone.

[Blair Wingo]

But you said. You said it while you was eating cereal.

[Justin Perry]

So, like, yeah, you just weren't a good steward of your time. I was like that. So I think. I don't know. It's just. It's a lot of history there. But Blair has written a second book. Yes. Tell us the title.

[Andrew Perry]

You gotta show that. You gotta show the book.

[Blair Wingo]

Yes. I have it here. So it's made to tremble. How anxiety became the best thing that ever happened to my faith.

[Andrew Perry]

Wow.

[Blair Wingo]

Just came out really excited about it.

[Justin Perry]

I feel like a lot of people.

[Blair Wingo]

Are dealing with anxiety. A lot of people are struggling with fear. So I'm just grateful to have this conversation with y'.

[Justin Perry]

All. Do you think people are more anxious now or that they are more aware of their anxiety?

[Blair Wingo]

That's a good question.

[Andrew Perry]

That is a good question.

[Justin Perry]

Yeah.

[Blair Wingo]

I think we certainly are having more conversations regarding anxiety. But it does feel unique in certain ways now when we think through, like, different generations. I'm sure that there were moments. Covid. Right. You know, even we look now, the tornado that's happening, we have job insecurity. We have even, like, food insecurity. That's happening right now for a lot of people. It almost. It does feel like a lot of condensed things have happened in the last, like, six years. That's very unique.

[Andrew Perry]

Political stuff.

[Blair Wingo]

Yeah, the political stuff that's right. In the church. And so, yeah, so I think it's a mix of these condensed moments, but then also, we're having more conversations about it. So I feel like a lot of people were dealing with anxiety in the past. They didn't have a title or label for it, and they weren't really allowed to feel it. Maybe, like, we are a little bit more now. So we what?

[Justin Perry]

Even before we get to. There was a scenario or a situation that happened in your life that kind of provoked this world. But how do I say what I'm trying to say? You know how a plant can grow. But there were seeds before that plant grew.

[Blair Wingo]

Yes.

[Justin Perry]

So before you started to experience panic attacks and before the Accident. Were there seeds of anxiety that led to this?

[Blair Wingo]

Yes. Now, I didn't know that, so I will say, you know, I say I met anxiety in 2015 when I had a car accident. Our family had just moved to Philly to help plant a church. We had three kids, three and under. And so a few months into that move, we went, and we were gonna visit family up in Michigan. And so I got behind the wheel to drive. I knew it was deer season, so I was watching to my right to make sure that, you know, all was good. Well, this deer came from the left. Totally caught me off guard. Had no time to respond. And initially, we were just so thankful we were okay, physically. That's a real animal, right?

[Justin Perry]

Yes.

[Blair Wingo]

Because the car was totaled, everything. And it was maybe a week later as I was driving that I felt like I can't breathe. I was just driving at night. Similar circumstances, like, I can't breathe. And it spiraled me in a panic attack. So later on, a couple years into my anxiety, I got counseling. Counseling for the first time in my life. And I thought, okay, we're going to deal with this little accident right along, you know? And what that counselor did was started pulling into asking me questions, and I began journaling. And that was when I realized, oh, well, that wasn't the first panic attack that I had. I had no idea what. Because even when I had that panic attack in the car after the accident, I didn't know how to label it. Yeah, well, I didn't know what it was. I went to the er. No one told me what it was. They were just like, you're fine.

[Justin Perry]

You're good.

[Blair Wingo]

So then I go back, and I was like, oh, so the first panic attack. I remember. So when I was 13, I lost my baby brother. It was a very difficult situation. My mom was in jail. My sister was 17. I was 13. We were caring for my infant brother, and I was the last one to lay him down, and he died of sids. So I get the call at recess, and it just. Yeah. And I certainly blame myself. There was no one there to process that with me. And so I just went on living my life. It wasn't until I was 25 years old that I had tried to have a conversation with my mom. She was like, this is too much. I can't. It was 20 years later, after this accident that I was able to process that for the first time.

[Justin Perry]

Wow.

[Blair Wingo]

And I realized, like, oh. So when I would smell the scent of my brother, it was like it kind of haunted me around the Time of his death. And I would run out of my classroom and I remember one of my classmates running behind to comfort me and I couldn't breathe, you know, And I was hyperventilating. Like that was an anxiety attack. But no one was there to comfort me or give me the language, but it was there. Or I think, oh, when I was three and I was biting my nails. We had just moved to Los Angeles. It was unfamiliar territory. And I bit my nails down to the bed. Those are signs of anxiety. So I think that's the beauty of counselors. And maybe we'll talk about that more to be able to help you dig. Because I was skeptical going in because I was like, girl, I don't want you all, yeah, I just want to deal with this accident and move on. But you start unfolding all of the traumas and all of the suffering and all of the experiences that you've had. And for me, dealing with that for the first time, it was a lot.

[Andrew Perry]

That's deep. I can, I mean, everything that you're saying, I can relate to it so much intentionality in marriage is pivotal, is huge, consistent communication, always making sure you're on the same page, even over communicating just so you know where your spouse's heart is is very important in marriage. And so that's the reason why we're looking forward to this next weekend. Weekend to Remember.

[Justin Perry]

A Weekend to Remember gives you space to reconnect and rediscover what God designed marriage to be. Whether you just got married last week or you've been married since 1962, this is for you. We are about to go to a Weekend to Remember event in Philly. And actually, by the time that you see this episod, we would have been back and I hope back and better.

[Andrew Perry]

Amen.

[Justin Perry]

Our mentors have gotten so much out of Weekend to Remember, and I'm excited that we will be able to take the time to intentionally invest in our marriage. And that's a gift that all couples need. And I hope you will do the same. Cuz being in community with other couples really does make a difference. With 80 weekend to remember events across the country, finding one in your area is easy. And right now, during Family Life's Black Friday sale, Weekend to Remember gift cards are half price. You can buy one for yourself as Christmas gift for somebody to know for your neighbor down the street. I don't know. For anybody that's married and can use intentional time away to focus on your most important earthly relationship, that's good. It's helpful gift Cards are good for one couple's registration to any event across the country, and you have up to two whole years to decide where and when you want to attend. To get all of that, visit weekendtoremember.com and purchase yours today for 50% off. That's weekend to remember.com 2019.

[Andrew Perry]

I wrote this poem called who Gives a Black Man Permission to Feel? And it's because I finally listened to my wife and went to therapy. And one of the first things my therapist asked me, she was like, I want you to kind of relive some of your trauma. And I said, I don't have no trauma. You know, that's so crazy.

[Blair Wingo]

Okay.

[Andrew Perry]

And so she's like, okay. She looked at me kind of weird. And then we started to talk. And then as we started to talk shit, I was like, yo, my uncle, man who raised me was murdered. And then I was like, I saw my first murder when I was in sixth grade. My neighbor killed his wife and then shot himself in front of me and my mom.

[Blair Wingo]

What?

[Andrew Perry]

And so I remember talking about how that experience changed my life. And I started to feel all of these emotions. But what I also did was what you just did. Like, I started to remember, like, the day I felt when I saw that murder. Like, I remember when it. When. When. When he killed his wife. Everybody was in our yard, like, looking at them at the murder scene when the police and everybody was out there and it started raining. And that was the first time I felt like my. My heart caught up with what I just saw. And I felt sadness. And so throughout my life, every time it rained, I would feel sad. And I didn't. I didn't. I didn't make the connection. Why?

[Blair Wingo]

Interesting.

[Andrew Perry]

And my counselor, you know, kind of just show me that that's a trigger, right? It's reminding you of that moment when you first saw life leave you. You wasn't supposed to see that, but because of sin, you saw that. And so I guess my question is, like, talk about the importance of therapy. Because I think a lot of times Christians can be afraid of therapy. And what I've noticed is that therapy doesn't necessarily give me the language to, like, repent. It doesn't calls repentance, but it gives me the language for repentance. It gives me the language to go to God and say, God, I'm dealing with this.

[Justin Perry]

I'm dealing with that.

[Andrew Perry]

And so talk about the thought of.

[Blair Wingo]

Therapy in your life. It's so good, and it's so important to take away the stigma behind therapy. And counselors, because I think sometimes we have the language for discipleship. And so we assume that all can be fixed with discipleship, which. Discipleship is vital, but we are a whole being. Right. And God has graciously given us common grace as well. And I think within that category, there are things that can help us that are just very practical, like therapy, like counselors. And so. And I think this is important, too, for leaders, like people who are in leadership, because there can be pastors who just assume, I can handle, okay, I'm called to shepherd this congregation. And so everything you're dealing with, I am capable of handling it. Yes. God has given grace to be able to use the word, to preach the truth to the congregation. But there are some people who need a little extra care, a little tenderness, who may do, I think, really well to get into therapy. And, you know, as a believer, yes, when I came to the Lord, I was able to process some of these things. You know, when I look back on my childhood and I see, yeah, being raised by a single mom, all the traumas that we experienced. But I think there was that survival mode. Right. So you don't necessarily get at the core of what's behind the trauma, which means that you can repeat the patterns and maybe sometimes ignore those patterns and just kind of say, oh, well, I'm good. I'm good because I've been discipled. I'm good because I love the Lord. I'm good because I read God's word. But that doesn't always deal with. Oh, man. Well, when I was 10, this event happened, and it's still impacting my life. And what ends up happening is, you know, we end up having another traumatic event, or maybe those events build up, and then ultimately it's like, it can take no more, you know, because anxiety, I believe, is the body speaking is what it is. It's the body telling us, I can't take anymore.

[Justin Perry]

Wow, you're human.

[Blair Wingo]

Like you said, you weren't meant to bear all of this. But this is the result of being in a sinful world with sinful bodies. Right. And learning. Okay, how do I maximize these tools? Spiritual helps and also common grace.

[Justin Perry]

Yeah.

[Andrew Perry]

Because we're gonna talk about panic attacks. And I really want to talk about. Because I started to suffer with panic attacks in our marriage. And one of the things that. Which I also put in the poem, you know, what am I to do with all this trauma trapped in my body? When grief comes out, it makes room for. To come in. And one thing that I realized is That I had a lot of trauma still trapped inside of my body that needed to come out and there were certain triggers that triggered that trauma. And so because of that, when I had a family and I had like, I had people that I can, that I really, really love now the thought of, I realized the thought of loss freaked me out because so many people in my life was killed. My best friend, one of my best friends was killed, my uncle was killed, my cousin was killed. And so I start to deal with a panic attacks like crazy. And so I would really love to talk about panic attacks cuz I still all the way don't understand it and how like that trauma, being trapped in your body causes it.

[Justin Perry]

I will. I, I think that's important. I think before we get there, I am intrigued. On the delayed anxiety of everything because you had an incident and it, it seemed like it's like, okay, cool dude, the car is total, we're fine. We go to the destination straight. It wasn't until some time after that. Yes. What was happening? Why do you think that's a thing?

[Blair Wingo]

Yeah, I believe I was in a state of shock. Partially in shock. And then also I didn't really do a whole lot of driving that week. And so we got back from that trip from Michigan and I drove down from Philly to D.C. so it's a three hour trip in one day to visit a friend. On the way back I was driving on a very narrow road. So when the accident happened it was on a turnpike. So I'm on this narrow road and all of a sudden I feel like I can't breathe, like I can't swallow. I was like, huh, that's weird. So I roll down the window and I try to get in some air and then it just goes away. And I keep driving. Drive home, fine. Couple days later I'm in a small group and my friends are like, what happened with this accident? You know, and so I'm just sharing like, oh, this happened and this happened and the deer came and da da da da da. And so I'm leaving small group and as I'm leaving small group, it's at night, I'm driving and all of a sudden it's like I can't swallow again. I roll down the window to see will the air like help it? You know, so it'll go away? Well, it doesn't go away now. I feel like I can't breathe now. My breathing is really shallow. It's like I'm hyperventilating and then my heart starts po. So Then I'm like, oh, am I having a heart attack? Like, what's going on? And so I remember I called Shai. I was like, I don't know what's going on, but I need to get to the hospital.

[Justin Perry]

He said, get you some water. That's what she said in the book.

[Blair Wingo]

Jackie, what did Shy say? He said, I'm gonna have some water waiting for you. He said, water?

[Justin Perry]

I love Shy. I said, I can't breathe.

[Blair Wingo]

Exactly. I'm dying. I don't need the water. She parched, right? So I hung up the phone and I was like, water, hold up. No, I need a doctor. You know, I get home and it's hilarious. Cause he had the little water waiting for me. My precious husband. But, you know, it's hard to understand what's going on. I was like, yeah, we gotta go to the er. And what was hilarious is we went to the ER and they gave me some water and a pill, put some water. And he was like, listen, we got water at home. It don't cost $3,500, but yeah. So that feeling of a panic attack is unlike anything I've ever felt before. And anyone who's experienced it, you know, it feels like you're dying. And what I believe is the reason that it was delayed as well was because, you know, I was talking about it bringing it back up. It was the same circumstances, like the accident. So every time I would get on a turnpike or every time I'm driving at night, I would have those similar feelings. And then it just spiraled. And so then it was like, I can't even really drive. I remember debating, should I drive? Because I can drive for about five minutes before I start hyperventilating. And I remember thinking it would be easier for me not to drive. But then I had to wrestle with that because I was like, do I never want to drive again? I felt like it really was a crossroads moment. And I just kept pushing through. I'm going to drive. Even if it's five minutes, I'm gonna drive. And then it was like 10 minutes. And then it was 30 minutes I could drive for. And then it was like I could drive an hour, but no more, for like two years. And then it was like, I can drive to D.C. as long as somebody's in the car. Until now, by God's grace, I can drive. You know, Praise the Lord. Drove myself here. But it was a process, you know, it was a process. And that anxiety just spiraled into every area of my life. Yeah. Things I was never afraid of before I started dealing with fear.

[Justin Perry]

Because correct me if I'm wrong, when panic attacks or extreme anxiety comes, are you actually thinking about the thing you're afraid of?

[Blair Wingo]

That's a good question.

[Andrew Perry]

No, I mean, well, not for me.

[Blair Wingo]

Yeah, I wasn't thinking about deer or.

[Justin Perry]

That's what I'm saying.

[Blair Wingo]

It's the physiological symptoms. That's why I say it's the body speaking, because it's not rational. There were moments where I would like be dreaming about deer and I wake up out of my sleep in a panic attack.

[Andrew Perry]

Yeah. Yeah. A couple of episodes ago we were talking about how our mattress is a little too soft for you, but it's kind of just perfect for me. And it's kind of hard for people to find that perfect mattress even in marriage or even when you're single.

[Justin Perry]

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[Andrew Perry]

It's giving Good.

[Justin Perry]

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[Andrew Perry]

Because one of the things that my counselor showed me was, you know, first murder I saw sixth grade and then my uncle was murdered the year after that. Then I saw my second murder right in front of me and then my friend died when my mom was trying to revive him. He got shot in the back, right? And so one of the things. When I left high school, I just became like this floater. And I would go a year, maybe a year and a half without seeing my mom. I didn't have to be around family. I loved my family. But one of the things my counselor showed me is that I kind of. I was just okay with not being around people because I didn't have to think about people leaving if I wasn't around them. And so what happened was when I got married and I got a wife. Wife and a kid, and I. Kid. Well, my first child, I was consistently surrounded around people that I loved. So the fear of loss, I had to think. I thought about consistently. And that's when I started to realize how jacked up I was. And so I remember the first time I had my panic attack. We were sitting on the couch and I. I was not. At that moment, I wasn't thinking about, you know, but I. I just jumped up and I felt like I was dying. I couldn't breathe. My heart was beating or whatever, and I was. Thought I. I thought I was dying. You ran down the hall and I opened the door and I was like, I gotta go to the hospital. My mind literally just told me, survival mode. Let's go to the hospital. They told me you had a panic attack. And I was like, whoa. And so what I realized later on was, even though I wasn't thinking about it at that moment, I was meditating on that the whole week, right? That was on my mind the whole week of, like, what if my daughter dies? What if Jackie dies? Because I've never really dealt with all the death that was in my life. It was kind of like my body keeping the score of that death, that trauma.

[Justin Perry]

I think what's fascinating but also affirming is how we're whole beings. You know, we're mind, body and soul. And so how, like, what you were thinking about in your mind throughout the week is now being made manifest in your body. It's like the Lord is, like, surfacing, interconnected.

[Andrew Perry]

Like, it is deep.

[Blair Wingo]

It is.

[Andrew Perry]

We're just very much mind, body, soul, spirit.

[Blair Wingo]

And it's interesting because even the. I think what I do in the book is I talk about three different types of fear from a puritan, John Flavel. He talks about natural fear. He talks about sinful fear and religious fear. And I thought it was so helpful, this concept of natural fear, right, that we by nature made in the image of God. God has put in us this desire to survive. Right. So I think initially that's what we're trying to do. When my body responds and says, get off the turmoil, get out of this car, it's like, because there's danger. There was danger, right? Someone died, right? So there's that concern, which is a good thing, right. If somebody comes in and tries to harm your kids, right. Or tries to harm your wife, right. You are going to defend. There's gonna be a bunch of adrenaline, right. That rises through your body in order to protect who you love, right. Or to protect yourself in that moment. Those are not bad things. The fight or flight, right. Or fawn or freeze. Those are not bad. It's though, because it's not, it doesn't mean that we have sinned because we feel that within our body, right? That's natural. What happens is when we begin to desire control, right? So that then shifts that good thing, which I would say is the result of the fall, right? So even though it may not be sin, it came from sin, right. It's the fruit of sin, if we're honest. But yet what happens is then it morphs into, now I want control because I feel unsafe, right? And so now control looks like because I experience similar things.

[Andrew Perry]

Covering yourself in a garden.

[Justin Perry]

Yeah.

[Blair Wingo]

So now I'm God. I'm gonna be God in my life. I'm gonna be God in my family's life. I remember when I had my first child, who was my son. I remember when he was a baby and I was questioning God, is he gonna live past two months?

[Andrew Perry]

Wow.

[Blair Wingo]

Because my baby brother died.

[Andrew Perry]

Wow.

[Blair Wingo]

And I bl for so many years, you know, like that still was there with me. But the truth is I'm not God. But anxiety, sinful anxiety, makes you believe, well, we're on the throne. If I think about this enough, right. Then somehow I am going to change this situation. I'm going to fix this situation. And so, yeah. Which then goes into the godly fear.

[Andrew Perry]

Because I think this is so fascinating. Yeah. Because I think, I think, I think because of the fall, we all live in a jacked up world and so nobody will escape trauma, right? Because we live in a fallen world. Sickness, disease, murder, you know, all this stuff, right? But I do think that there is a particular type of trauma that comes with sudden loss or sudden grief. Like for me, like I couldn't prepare my uncle, my hero getting shot in the head, three o' clock in the morning, I couldn't prepare for that. You couldn't prepare a deer hitting your car or your brother dying and you Getting that call that sud. So it's kind of different than if your mom has cancer and you have six months to kind of like accept the fact that she's leaving. And so one of the things that I realized in my grieving process is that I experience a lot of sudden, just uncontrollable loss. Uncontrollable loss. Like my cousin here, me and my Jackie get off the plane from Toronto. I get a text, your cousin Wayne, we just killed him. You know what I'm saying? And so, like, all of this, you.

[Justin Perry]

Know what I'm saying?

[Andrew Perry]

So talk about how, like that sudden trauma.

[Blair Wingo]

Yeah.

[Andrew Perry]

Kind of shows up in our life in ways that we might not even recognize or can kind of stay with us because we didn't have time even to process.

[Blair Wingo]

Yeah, that's right. I mean, and I have not experienced what you've experienced, and I haven't experienced what you experienced. Yeah. But I want to say I'm sorry, brother, for your loss. Cause these are hard things. These are real things that we experience in this fallen world. I think it is true. Oftentimes it's not only the trauma and then sometimes the panic or the anxiety that we're dealing with as a result, but then also we got ptsd. Like, there are layers to this thing. And so just like a person who's dealing with ptsd, which often it's a sudden one moment, right. Which kind of changes their. Their mind, changes their situation. We wouldn't say you're in sin, you know, you went to war, right. And you've experienced all of these people who've died or these explosions. And so now you hear a noise and you're jerking, right?

[Andrew Perry]

Yeah.

[Blair Wingo]

And so. But I think sometimes in the church, we are not. We are not tender. Maybe because we haven't experienced loss that sudden. We don't know what it's like to comfort someone, El. Who's experienced it. But God is tender. God is tender. Whether it's a drawn out loss or a sudden loss, our God is tender. He's able to be with us in the midst of it. And I think it's important to not shame an individual or isolate an individual or condemn an individual because of the pain that they've experienced. That's what happened with Job, right? Sudden loss, you know, dealing with all of this loss. And friends who initially were very quiet for seven days and seven nights. Some of the best things, like you.

[Andrew Perry]

Must have did something. You made God mad, right?

[Blair Wingo]

That's right.

[Justin Perry]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Blair Wingo]

And so. Yeah. So God is tender with Us.

[Andrew Perry]

That's good. That's really good.

[Justin Perry]

What. How did your anxiety lead you towards God? Because you're experiencing fear? Physiological stuff. You, like, should I drive five minutes, 10 minutes? That could have just become a norm.

[Blair Wingo]

Yeah.

[Justin Perry]

How did that lead you into, like, considering the Lord in all your ways?

[Blair Wingo]

You know what I'm saying? That's a good question. Yeah. It was a process because initially I was condemning myself. I did feel a lot of shame. I didn't believe that Christians could be anxious because of how I was taught. And so I remember someone coming up to me who experienced panic attacks, and they were telling me about it years ago, and I remember telling them, oh, just trust the Lord. Just read some more scripture. You're gonna be good.

[Andrew Perry]

You gonna be all right, girl.

[Blair Wingo]

You gonna be all right. Yeah, Cast some cares, you know what I mean? And then you go through it, and you're like, whoa, this is different. This is altogether different. I went from. Even though I had all those traumas in life, but I still was, like, on the stage since I was nine, you know, acting, doing all these things, Very independent and capable capacity, if you will. And so going from that to everything being stripped away. Because, as I said, I was anxious all day, every day. And there were other symptoms, too. So I remember being in bed for, like, three weeks, like, I couldn't do anything. And that's when I really wrestle with God. Because when you have one panic attack, it's like, okay, this is difficult. But when you have five and then. Or 10, and you're like, oh, man, we're a year in. Oh, we're two years in. I remember Shai and I looking at each other like, is this the way it's always gonna be? You know? And I thought, maybe this is the way it will always be. And one of the things I decided was, you know, if this is my lot, I'm still gonna praise you in the midst of it. I'm gonna cling to you in the midst of it. And what I had to learn was actually to read a lot of scriptures in context. So there were a lot of passages that we are all familiar with, like, be anxious for nothing, you know, which is Proverb, not proverbs. It's Philippians 4. Be anxious for nothing. And so I remember reading that. Well, initially, before reading that, that would be the text I would use to kind of beat myself up.

[Justin Perry]

Cause I'm anxious for everything.

[Blair Wingo]

I'm anxious for everything. Every moment. Right. Or fear not, which is the most common command in the text. But it's interesting when you read it in context because Philippians 4, verse 4 says, Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again, rejoice. Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near verse 6. Do not be anxious about anything, but in every. So he's contrasting but in everything. By prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your request to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ. This text is so important. So one of the things I had to realize was I don't know how to cast my cares. I had heard that, but in practice I didn't know exactly what that meant for me. That began to look like, okay, Lord, I'm feeling anxious. I know that you're in control. I don't have the resources needed in order to handle any of this that I'm concerned about, but I know that you do. And so I am going to appeal to you in my anxiety. So Lord, I feel like a panic attack is coming on. I know that you're in control of me, you're able to help me, you're able to deal with me gently. And so I'm gonna cast these cares over to you in prayer and petition. And then it says with Thanksgiving.

[Justin Perry]

Uh huh.

[Blair Wingo]

That part, which was really important because what happens is anxiety. It causes you to forget.

[Andrew Perry]

That's good.

[Blair Wingo]

Thanksgiving helps you remember. Yeah, it helps you remember who your God is. It helps you remember how he's brought you through in the midst of your difficulty.

[Andrew Perry]

That's good.

[Blair Wingo]

And then it says with thanksgiving, present your request to God and the peace of God. What's interesting about that word, anxious, it actually means to be divided, to be pulled apart in different directions. But then he says, and the peace of God, that word for peace means to tie together all the parts. Come on, somebody. Come on, Lord. So what God is saying and the reason I believe that there's so many commands about do not fear, which we take, we forget, because I am with you, we forget. The context of those passages is because God knew that there would be a lot of things that are scary in this world. And the point is, I'm going to be with you, that you can ask me for what you need. Right.

[Andrew Perry]

That's really good.

[Blair Wingo]

So yeah. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your heart and your mind in Christ.

[Andrew Perry]

A couple years ago, the Lord started to put it on my heart to start an online community group for men because just going out doing events, one of the things that I saw the most is just me and our loneliness. Only. We need community. We need to know that, you know, not only do God care, but there's people out there, men out there, other men, who will love you. Who cares. And so that's the reason why I'm starting an online community group called the Sons of Man, where we would talk about real issues, where we can have a real community, you know, where we can have a safe place to come and just be men. Vent. But also, one of the main reasons why I still started, you know, Sons of Man, is because I want us to see how Jesus's humanity relates to our. Our manhood, right? God became man. And so not only do I see you, but most of all, God sees you. And so in this community, we're going to be consistently reminded how we're seen by a holy and righteous God, how we're loved by a holy and righteous God, and how we're sons by a holy and righteous God. What you'll expect from this community group is realness. I mean, I'm always real on every platform that you see me on, but y' all gonna see a. That y' all don't see nowhere else. We're going to have real, intimate, honest, transparent conversations that's only in house. Um, so social media, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, they not going to get this. Y' all gonna get this. Not only that, y' all gonna get exclusive, real FaceTime videos with me where, you know, you can ask me questions in real time, and I can just, you know, give you answers in real time, you know, and so, you know, pop up live events or whatever around the country where only my Patreon be able to come to. And so I think ultimately what you will get is just exclusive access to me in a way that the other, you know, social media outlets don't have. But also you're going to get real, honest, transparent conversation that's safe, but at the same time, fruitful and edifying. So, yeah, can't wait to see you there.

[Justin Perry]

Would you say I have my own answer? Would you say that peace comes immediately?

[Blair Wingo]

Hmm. You know what I would say? Peace is a person. Peace is a person. Because it's not about the circumstances. You might be trembling, you might be afraid, but who are you holding onto in the midst of it? Who's with you in the midst of it? That's good, Emmanuel. God with us. That, to me, is what made all the difference in my anxiety. Because. Because the reality is, when I drive, there might be another deer. Peace can't look Circumstantial, because there might be another deer. There may be something worse in my life. So what am I going to do? It has to be who's with me, that even if another deer comes, I serve the God who's over the deer. I serve the God who's over cancer. I serve the God who can provide your practical needs, who can give you food. Come on. He's our provider. And so realizing who is with us. And that's the trembling, that's the awe, that's the fear of the Lord. That is also important for us as believers.

[Andrew Perry]

That's the picture we see when the storm comes. You know, like that circumstance. God didn't make that circumstance change. The storm was still there. But God is like, if I'm sleeping on this boat, y' all should be resting too.

[Blair Wingo]

That's right.

[Justin Perry]

Because that's, that's what I was going to say is if you listen to what she's saying, you do hear a theology of God. Yes.

[Blair Wingo]

In it.

[Andrew Perry]

Right.

[Justin Perry]

You know what I'm saying? Like, there's it, there's language and competency. There's a literacy to him. Like, he is good, he is great, he is sovereign, he is with me, he is this, he is that, he is wise. And it's like, I think sometimes we are chasing after the feeling of peace and discontent with the presence of God because we don't know God.

[Andrew Perry]

Right.

[Justin Perry]

And so I think that is the beauty of certain circumstances that produce certain fears and emotions is that it's driving us into a dependence that we would not have otherwise. Does that make sense? You looking at the fly behind my head?

[Andrew Perry]

No, I was looking at your head. Cuz I really like it. But I was listening to you at the same time. No, it's really, really, really good what you, what you're saying.

[Justin Perry]

Because on the boat they accused him.

[Andrew Perry]

Yeah.

[Justin Perry]

And said, do you not care? Which is an accusation about his ability to have compassion. That's a theology of God problem. And so I've seen, like, if I am struggling with anxiety, I need to ask the question of what? Who do you believe that I am?

[Andrew Perry]

That's right. Yeah, absolutely. Because. Because, Because I think what we're all longing for, security and safety, Right?

[Justin Perry]

Yes.

[Andrew Perry]

And they didn't feel safe, but they should have known my safety as a person, not this circumstance.

[Blair Wingo]

That's right.

[Andrew Perry]

Like, that is my safety. You are my safety.

[Blair Wingo]

That's right.

[Andrew Perry]

And so if you're here, I'm safe. Even if it doesn't look safe, I am safe. Because you're here.

[Justin Perry]

And it was scary, Blair.

[Blair Wingo]

It was scary.

[Andrew Perry]

It was scary.

[Justin Perry]

We're about to die.

[Blair Wingo]

Yes, that's right.

[Justin Perry]

We gotta be honest. Like, I was talking to my. I got a new therapist shout out to her, and I was telling her, I was like, I'm afraid of so many things that are literally scary. But then you got texts in Peter where he's like, don't fear what is fearful. Yeah, I know it's scary.

[Andrew Perry]

Yeah.

[Justin Perry]

Don't fear it.

[Blair Wingo]

That's right.

[Justin Perry]

You. You talk about. I'm a turn to. I'm a read it. And you just. You just tell us. You just tell us all the things, because this. If I could get this tattooed on my cheek, the one on my face, I promise I. Oh, my gosh. Promise I would. This is. This has become. I ain't gonna say it's a life verse, but it's that for me. Second Corinthians 4, where he says, but we have this treasure, verse 7, in jars of clay, to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us. We are afflicted in every way, but not crushed. Perplexed, but not driven to despair. Persecuted but not forsaken, struck down, but not destroyed. Always carrying in the body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our bodies. You have this 10 in this book.

[Blair Wingo]

Yes.

[Justin Perry]

Talk about it.

[Blair Wingo]

Yes. And that it gets to the heart of why I can say anxiety became the best thing that ever happened to my faith, is because anxiety, what it does is it helps you see you're human.

[Andrew Perry]

You're human dependency.

[Blair Wingo]

You're human. You don't have what you need in and of yourself. But there is an all surpassing power that is from God and it's not from us. Right. And. And so anything that reveals your humanity and then exposes or reveals God's divinity, which allows you to cling to him even much more than you would had you not experienced the trauma, the anxiety, the accident. You have to say, okay, you're working good. Even if I. I may not say anxiety is good.

[Justin Perry]

Yes.

[Blair Wingo]

But what you're doing in the midst of it is good.

[Andrew Perry]

Yeah. All things working together for the good.

[Blair Wingo]

They're working together for good. And yeah.

[Justin Perry]

Yeah.

[Blair Wingo]

So our weakness exposes God's strength. Our weakness helps us to be more dependent. Because anyone who would try to put confidence in their self when they're terrified, you know, like, it doesn't even make sense. It's not reasonable. Almost every patriarch, all of the prophets. Prophets were scared. When you look Abraham Sarah, you know, Isaac, Jacob, Elijah, there's a whole list. The disciples, they were scared. It's not that we will be scared. And that's the worst thing. It's what will we do when we are afraid.

[Andrew Perry]

Wow.

[Blair Wingo]

And that's how it can become the best thing.

[Justin Perry]

Yeah. That's good. That's good.

[Andrew Perry]

Yeah. I think about the disciples often, and I. I just did a patreon with my men's group a couple of days ago, and we was just walking through the life of the disciples, and we were just talking about their process. And in John 21, when Jesus revealed himself after the resurrection, I think for the third time to them, they were. They. They would just lock themselves in the house because they were afraid. I mean, can you imagine the anxiety that they had Their. Their leader and their was just murdered and they were his closest followers, his closest disciples. And so they were like more than likely next. I mean, they ended up. But the dependency when Jesus came back and revealed himself to them, when they depended on the Lord is how we got scripture.

[Blair Wingo]

That's right.

[Andrew Perry]

Is when they start, like when they were the most fruitful is when they gave their anxieties and their fears back to God and God was able to use them. And so he didn't take away the threat of death, but he did produce much work in us. And so a lot of times I'm thinking, like, what is God trying to produce in me in the midst of all of this anxiety? Like, he wants to get fruit out of this.

[Blair Wingo]

That's right.

[Andrew Perry]

And so I guess my question for you is, in the same way the disciples, God got a lot of fruit out of them in ministry. Like, what did God produce that's good out of you when it came to your trauma? And how did he use your trauma? Not to just write this book, but to impact your home, your children, your marriage?

[Justin Perry]

Yeah, that's right.

[Blair Wingo]

Yeah. And some of that we may not know the fullness of the fruit. I think God kind of preserves or keeps us from seeing all the fruit. Right. Cause then we might boast in ourself.

[Andrew Perry]

That's good.

[Blair Wingo]

But one of the things that I will see, I have seen. One of the things I have seen was actually right around the time of COVID So the Lord was just bringing me out of this season of feeling anxious all day, every day. And then I had friends and those that I went to church with, who in the thick of COVID were dealing with fear for them for the first time, you know, and unsure of how do I cope, what do I do. And many of them came and they said, you know, I know that you had this season. Can you offer? So one of the things that I see is the Lord allowing me to comfort others with the same comfort that he's shown me, you know? But yeah, we don't always know. But I'm like, even Lord, if you could use all of the difficulties that I've experienced in my life in order that you would get glory, in order that maybe someone would even see, like you could experience hardship and still endure by God's grace. Because life isn't always easy.

[Andrew Perry]

That's beautiful.

[Blair Wingo]

And it's hard to grieve loss and trauma and to really rethink your childhood from the lens of truth. Because sometimes we're in survival mode, right? And so we kind of wear these rose colored glasses. But to be able to look back and say, oh, I don't want to call good evil or evil good. Let me see this rightly. And you see it rightly. You grieve because it's hard, but you trust Lord, you're working something in me because you're purifying my faith. And this is for the church, right? That the church, the saints would be built up.

[Andrew Perry]

Well, one thing that we do see is like, after they surrendered their anxiety, their fears, they gave us letters. This book is your version. It's not authoritative, it's not scripture, right?

[Blair Wingo]

Yeah, it's.

[Andrew Perry]

But it's still. Let's clarify, it's still produced by, by a lot of the things that the Lord allowed you to go through, which is also beautiful.

[Justin Perry]

I'm thinking of myself when I was in, before I became a believer and how I didn't know at the time that I was carrying a lot of anxiety, often that that was the reason why I smoked so much weed, because I just wanted peace in my mind and my heart. And the anxiety legitimately was conviction of conscience. I started to smoke more weed, the more convicted I got. And so there was. It was no fear of the Lord, but there was a fear of judgment. And so I guess what I'm thinking of are people who have not yet got to the point where they have the default to trust God with their cares or the default to trust God with their anxieties. But they do have a lot of coping mechanisms and vices that are like a temporary peace. Speak into that.

[Blair Wingo]

Yeah, well, it's not true peace. It's not sustaining peace. It's interesting because even as I talk about some common grace, which I'm not saying marijuana fits into that category. But I think there are certain things that I think the Lord has given breathing techniques and there are things that we can do. But ultimately, as I said, peace is a person. Right. We serve the prince. So any of those things that you do, it's only temporary. And the thing is, we still are called to submit to the King of kings. And every knee will bow and every tongue will confess. And so it's not enough just to get rid of the anxiety. That's the thing, I think for so many people, it's like, I just want this out of my life because it's chaotic. And even as Christians, I think sometimes we can fight anxiety with anxiety. Ooh.

[Justin Perry]

Yeah.

[Blair Wingo]

So I just need to, you know, take these thoughts captive. But it's like a, you know, a game of Fruit Ninja.

[Justin Perry]

Did I take the thoughts captive good enough? I don't know if it.

[Blair Wingo]

Yeah, you know, and then that kind of becomes a form of ocd. There's a friend of mine who talks about religious OCD or scrupulosity, you know, praying a hundred times, you know, so there can be anxiety in that. That's not. That's not it. It's ultimately about a person. The scripture is pointing us to a person, and that's where genuine peace resides. So it's not just getting rid of the anxiety.

[Justin Perry]

That's right.

[Blair Wingo]

It's finding the Lord and trusting that he's going to be with you, even if he has you trembling the rest of your life.

[Justin Perry]

That's cool.

[Andrew Perry]

That's so good.

[Justin Perry]

I felt that. Let me say something real quick. I think what's significant about that is I wish I could find it so we could put it in the show notes, but there's this Tim Keller sermon on this too, when we was on tour. What was that? A year ago? And. And it's basically. Sometimes I think we have to come to the point where if the worst thing happens, it won't break you. And by break you, I don't mean it won't weaken you. By break you, I don't mean it won't humble you, won't hurt you, won't grieve you. But if it happens, he's with you in it. And I think that's the. I know for me, I think I am often, I don't wanna feel bad feelings if my children die. I don't want the grief that comes with the death.

[Blair Wingo]

Yes.

[Justin Perry]

So I'm anxious because I'm afraid of what that will do to me. But that is where we share in his sufferings.

[Blair Wingo]

Yes.

[Justin Perry]

Right. And so it's like sometimes I think the worst thing cannot be the worst thing that can happen only becomes the worst thing that can happen. If God leaves.

[Blair Wingo]

Right.

[Justin Perry]

If he abandons you.

[Blair Wingo]

That's right.

[Justin Perry]

Then it is, in fact the worst thing that happens. But if he is with you, it is not the worst thing that can happen. Doesn't make so.

[Blair Wingo]

Absolutely. And that's so important because so many people who deal, who are believers, who deal with anxiety, they feel like God is not with them. Because I'm anxious. Because what we've done is we've pitted sinful fear against religious fear.

[Andrew Perry]

Wow.

[Blair Wingo]

Explain that. Yeah. So we say, if you are struggling with worry or sinful worry, then you must not be fearing God. And that's not always the case. So you could be. Because then that's why I open up this category of also natural fear. Right. So you might be dealing with these physiological symptoms, but you're inserting that in the text. So when you say when you see the anxious for nothing, you think, oh, well, that's my panic attack. Paul wasn't talking about your panic attack. He wasn't talking about that. And so when you believe that there's only sinful fear and religious fear, then you condemn yourself. You're left only to condemn yourself because you're like, I'm not fearing God. But for the believer, nothing will separate you from the love of God. There is no condemnation for those who are inclined Christ. We have to hold on to the truth about what God says about us because of his Son. And so because of what Christ has accomplished on the cross, because of what he accomplished through the resurrection, we're trusting in him. We're now unified in gospel.

[Justin Perry]

That's great.

[Andrew Perry]

He's gonna teach us.

[Blair Wingo]

Even though we're dealing with suffering here, like you said, we're suffering now with Christ, it's a different thing. And also, I think it's important for believers to not be afraid of death. We're not supposed to be afraid of death. Now, if I'm honest, and I was honest, of course, in the book, like, I remember during that season, I was afraid to die. And I was trying to reconcile that with my faith. Why am I afraid to die when the scripture says to die is gain? You know, and having to wrestle with God, and ultimately it was me landing on who's with me. If the worst thing happens in my life, I'm not gonna be alone.

[Justin Perry]

Wow.

[Blair Wingo]

If whatever. My greatest fear is cancer, right. My husband dies, my children die, I die. God is gonna be with me. And that makes all the difference. That makes all the difference. And so we have to make sure that we remember who's there, remember our God is there. And then we have a community through the body of Christ. That's there as well.

[Andrew Perry]

Yeah, that's. Man, you just said a lot.

[Justin Perry]

You felt that in your chest.

[Andrew Perry]

I did. I mean, I experienced a lot of death, you know, and so, like, that's just been a consistent wrestle for me. And it's often been frustrating, you know, saying we're trying to communicate that to other people who haven't experienced death. It's like, I don't think you actually understand it because I don't understand it half of the time. And so, yeah, that was challenging and encouraging.

[Justin Perry]

Cause it's one thing too have loss. It's another thing to have loss that's not returning.

[Andrew Perry]

Yes.

[Justin Perry]

You know, to.

[Blair Wingo]

To.

[Justin Perry]

To lose people that don't come back.

[Andrew Perry]

Yeah, for sure.

[Justin Perry]

Is. Is a different thing.

[Andrew Perry]

My question is, the scriptures talk about anxiety a lot.

[Justin Perry]

Yeah, they do.

[Andrew Perry]

I mean, like, Luke talks about it. Matthew talks about not being anxious for nothing first. Timothy talks about not being anxious.

[Justin Perry]

And it's like your word, sir.

[Andrew Perry]

It's just. It's just a lot of talk about anxiety, but it's often paired with what we should focus on. Like one of the scriptures says, but meditate on these things. Whatever's good, whatever's lovely, what is worthy of praise. But sometimes when you're anxious and when you're going through panic attacks, it's hard. Like, it feels impossible for your mind to think about good things. Yeah.

[Justin Perry]

Because you start thinking, okay, what is true? God is good. But my taxes. Whatever is worthy of praise. Lord, you are so worthy. It's so. I gotta take the dog out.

[Blair Wingo]

Like, it's like your mind just.

[Andrew Perry]

It's so. Sometimes it seems like an impossible task to meditate because I think what God does want us to do, he want us to meditate on the good things, on what is good, what is worthy of praise. But sometimes it seems so what are some practical ways we can actually set our minds on good things in the midst of fear and fear?

[Blair Wingo]

Absolutely. One of the things I think we need to learn to do is rest.

[Justin Perry]

Ooh.

[Blair Wingo]

And I think we just struggle with that. Our society struggles with that. I think we are in an anxious age. So everybody's busy, everybody's hustling. Everybody got five businesses, you know, and so it's hard to take those moments to retreat. We almost feel uncomfortable when it's time to rest, even at night. Got our Phone, you know, like, it's just. It's hard to rest. And so that is important. One of the things I. I did. Cause I write in poetry and prose and I use poetry and hymns throughout the book as like a selah to say, let's stop. Why? Because we're human. Because we can't do it all. We were never meant to bear it all. And so I think that is really important. And then also we need to be thinking about true things. We have so much information, these, so many opinions. But how much time, quality time do we spend actually meditating upon what is true and truth? You know, there's a reason, a rationalization when it comes to truth, but also a revelation, right? And so true things, we wanna hold fast to that which is true. But also we wanna know that God reveals the truth. As I said, truth is a person. Capital T in Jesus. Jesus. Wisdom from God is Jesus. So when the scripture talks about the beginning of wisdom is the fear of the Lord. That means that God has to be prioritized as first in our life. And we have to fight for that. That God be on the throne. And we don't believe that I'm on the throne or even someone else is on the throne. Cause I think that fear of man is when we place someone else on the throne, therefore truth becomes the capital T. Truth. And God's truth is, you know, is tucked away somewhere. What does it look like to hold God's word and value it right. As greater than gold, greater than treasure, sweeter than honey. And say, God, I'm gonna spend time meditating, even if it's at night. So one of the things I do, I'll take one verse and at night just continue to rehearse that verse, repeat that verse again and again until I fall asleep. That's just a practical way. Or listening sermons throughout the day. I'm doing dishes, I'm, you know, running errands. You can listen to truth being communicated, listen to songs and hymns and spiritual songs being communicated throughout the day. And so setting your life up, organizing your life in such a way that truth is around you, that's great.

[Andrew Perry]

Yeah, that's convicting. Because I think we just don't give ourselves time to meditate on the things. That's good.

[Justin Perry]

Yeah, that made me think about that verse differently. Because as I started to look at it, I was like. Because one thing Americans, and it might just be human, is we are addicted to efficiency. And so we think on these things and we think, I'm going to think on it right now. And it should produce this fruit right now versus of just saturating your mind throughout your day so that you can't help. Help but think on these things.

[Andrew Perry]

Does it make sense because it's transformative. It's not.

[Justin Perry]

Yeah.

[Andrew Perry]

It's supposed to change you over time. And a lot of times we want to microwave instead of. Instead of bake. You know, this, like, how the scriptures want to transform us from the inside out.

[Justin Perry]

And I want to honor something you said that I think we don't talk about enough in, like, Christian conversations is kind of natural means of peace. And so during the summertime, I really realized spring and summer, you know, I. I realized I need to get out of the house.

[Blair Wingo]

Yeah.

[Justin Perry]

It's very simple. So I started to get up every morning, get the kids together, get their breakfast. Da da, da. And sit on the porch. Because I realized exposure to the sun helped me to have a little more peace. Yeah. It was something about being in the house all day that made me more anxious, made me more proud.

[Andrew Perry]

Get out of the house. I was like, my guy.

[Justin Perry]

I said, I just need to go outside.

[Blair Wingo]

That's right.

[Justin Perry]

You know, some of us just need to.

[Blair Wingo]

The walk.

[Andrew Perry]

Yeah.

[Blair Wingo]

It's real true. That's right.

[Andrew Perry]

And also, just. Just. I. I think people. This might seem small, but I. I don't. I think it's actually way bigger than what we think. Like, it's like meditating on God's nature and sitting in. In. In amongst God's creation will probably bring you more peace.

[Blair Wingo]

Absolutely.

[Andrew Perry]

You know, because it's like, you know, during the pandemic, a person who. I cannot stay in the house. She knows that. And I had Covid and I literally tall and I was trapped in that. In that.

[Justin Perry]

We put him in the.

[Andrew Perry]

In the off quarantine.

[Blair Wingo]

Okay.

[Justin Perry]

I said.

[Andrew Perry]

I said, I'm starting to be depressed. I'm starting to think about all the things that happened wrong in my life. I. I want to see my kids. I want to, like, be in the bed with my wife, and I want to grab her and just hold her and all the stuff.

[Justin Perry]

Uhhuh.

[Blair Wingo]

Going in.

[Andrew Perry]

I just felt lonely. I just felt lonely. And no. And Jackie was like, go fishing.

[Justin Perry]

I was like, you can't affect them. I was like, you golf on them all day long. I was like, I can go to the lake.

[Andrew Perry]

And I'm telling you, I experienced the joy of the Lord in the way. I mean, I was like, this.

[Justin Perry]

She is.

[Andrew Perry]

This is so genius. Thank you for telling me to go to the lake. And that's when I start to realize, no, God actually, like, created the world beautiful. He literally created water and trees and birds to sing to us as, like, take advantage of all the things that God created.

[Justin Perry]

Because I used to talk about, shout out to all the white people that have no problem laying in grass. I used to look at y' all like, what are y' all doing now? I covet it. Look at them laying in the guy in the Lord's grass.

[Andrew Perry]

Cause growing up in the hood, we be like. We go outside, we trying to go to the store. We play.

[Justin Perry]

When people be like, you need to go out and touch grass. You sure do. That's a means of grace, right?

[Andrew Perry]

It is, yeah.

[Blair Wingo]

We didn't have grass in the hood.

[Justin Perry]

No, y' all did not in la. Y' all had concrete. South Central. Yeah. So.

[Blair Wingo]

Yeah.

[Andrew Perry]

So that's. I mean, that's.

[Justin Perry]

It's.

[Andrew Perry]

It seems small, but it's actually. God has given us so much around us to give us.

[Blair Wingo]

That's right.

[Justin Perry]

I think in closing, I would love for you, because we have so many different kinds of listeners. We got. We got students, we got mothers, fathers, we got pastors, we have new believers, old believe. I just want you to exhort the person who, even as they listen, are anxious.

[Blair Wingo]

Yeah. There's a passage that I want to read from Hebrews. I'll start chapter 12, and I will start at verse 18. Well, I'll start at 14. Says, make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy without holiness, no one will see. The Lord see to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile. Many see that no one is sexually immoral or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected. He could bring about no change of mind, though he sought the blessing with tears. You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire to darkness, gloom and storm, to a trumpet blast, or to such a voice speaking words that those who heard it begged that no further word be spoken to them because they could not bear what was commanded. If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned. The sight was so terrifying that Moses said, I am trembling with fear. Fear. But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, to the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly to the church of the Firstborn whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled bodies. Blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. And I'm going to skip down to verse 28. It says, Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, come on now. Let us be thankful and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe. For our God is a consuming fire. I really want to leave. Just reflecting upon God and the fact that he is the one who is working, worthy of our all. He's worthy of our reverence. He's worthy of all praise. He's worthy of all glory. He's worthy of our lives. And you know, this passage is contrasting those. And there may be some who are listening who do not have a relationship with God yet. And it talks about the fear of being in God's presence because of his wrath. But yet it also gives so much comfort because of what Jesus Christ has done that we have one whose blood speaks a better word than Abel. And so God, he has allowed us to have a kingdom that cannot be shaken. And I just love that. That imperishable kingdom that will never be shaken. And the king in that kingdom is a God who never trembles, who's not anxious, right? And that's why I say is worthy of our devotion. Isaiah 6 talks about the train of his robe fill the temple, right? This is the God, right, who is holy, holy, holy, who deserves our life. And so my encouragement to you, right where you are, is to know that God can be with you right there. If you do not know him, you can call out to him today so that you can have a relationship with him. And if you do know him, know that all of your fears, all of your cares, all of your concerns, you know, he's concerned with you, that he loves you. It's beautiful. When you think of Jesus who came to earth, took on flesh and right in the garden of Gethsemane. It talks about him sweating blood. And he did that for us. He sweated blood, right? A physiological response, knowing I'm gonna bear the wrath of God for y'.

[Justin Perry]

All.

[Andrew Perry]

Wow.

[Blair Wingo]

Because I love you so much, much. And so consider your God. Consider God, right? The potter, the Creator, the one who is above all else and submit to him. Right? Be draw near to him. And so that is my encouragement to everyone. Yeah. We were made to tremble before him.

[Andrew Perry]

That's good. That's so good.

[Justin Perry]

Do you mind praying?

[Blair Wingo]

Yeah.

[Justin Perry]

And then.

[Andrew Perry]

Yeah, for sure. Let's pray. Oh, man. Dear Lord, think I thank you, Father, for this topic, this conversation. I knew this conversation was important, but having this conversation is just kind of put. Put it in words, how important it is because we live in a fallen, broken world. That's so much to worry about, it seems. But what we've consistently said, what Blair have consistently said is that peace is a person. And so, God, would you help us, not just us, but the listener, to focus on the person that we would gaze on the beauty of Christ and to know that we serve a great high priest who's able to sympathize with our weakness because he became man like us, but because he was sinless, unlike us. We have a help, and we can run to the throne of grace for help. And so, God, I just pray for the listener. I pray, God, that they would not run to. To the bottle or sex or marijuana or even people. I pray, God, that they will run to you, that they will run to your throne. I pray, God, at that throne, you will meet them there and you will commune and dine with them there. I pray, Father, for the unbeliever listening to this who's carrying so many burdens and weights. I pray, God, that you would just show them that your burdens are light and your yoke is easy. And so, God, I just thank you, God, for your love and your care for us. And I just pray, God, that we would continue to look on the person of Jesus Christ for our peace and comfort. We love you. We thank you. We believe you. In Jesus name, Amen.

[Blair Wingo]

Amen.

[Justin Perry]

Thank you, Blair.

[Blair Wingo]

Thank you, guys.

[Justin Perry]

Bye, y'. All.

[Andrew Perry]

Peace.

[Justin Perry]

With the Perrys is produced by the Perrys with support from Amanda reed and Channing McBride. Video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley, edited by the team at Tread Lively, artwork by Hob and music by Swoop. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.