A Conversation on Sex, Dating, and Beauty with The Azonwus

Summary

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With The Perrys – A Conversation on Sex, Dating, and Beauty with The Azonwus

Released: May 6, 2024
Hosts: Preston Perry & Jackie Hill Perry
Guests: Ezekiel & Kyana Azonwu

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Episode Overview

In this heartfelt and unfiltered episode, The Perrys are joined by Ezekiel and Kyana Azonwu to discuss the real challenges and blessings of marriage, sex, dating, beauty standards, friendship, spiritual growth, and navigating life as a couple in ministry with a full family. The conversation is full of candor, humor, practical insights, and vulnerability—touching on topics like addiction, attraction, the sovereignty of God in relationships, how beauty impacts dating, the enduring importance of character, and the hard work required to sustain intimacy in marriage. The episode offers wisdom and relatable experiences for singles, dating couples, and married folk alike.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Opening & Introducing The Azonwus

(00:45–02:00)

• Kyana speaks about not typically doing podcasts, joking about now being pressured to accept invitations.
• The Perrys and Azonwus establish a warm, humorous atmosphere with playful banter about their friendship and the Azonwus’ dynamic life and story.

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2. Overcoming Pornography & Sin—Ezekiel’s Honest Testimony

(02:45–11:59)

• Ezekiel transparently recounts an embarrassing formative moment where pornography unexpectedly played on his phone during church—a story filled with both comedy and humility.
  • “Somehow, some way, I was sitting in church... the tab must have been touched... I was actively actually worshiping in church and praising God.” (03:31, D)
  • Kyana describes her embarrassment and sense of divine justice: “It’s like, yeah, that served you right. Like I felt like, uh huh. Yeah. Yep, that’s God talking to [you].” (05:29, C)
• Ezekiel draws a parallel to drug addiction, emphasizing the depth of his struggle and how God’s mercy began to convict him.
• Key insight: It's difficult to break free from certain sins until one personally apprehends how they offend God, not just by hearing mixed messages from others.
• He talks about the poem “Exodus,” which grew from his journey to find biblical clarity on the sinfulness of pornography and masturbation, ultimately concluding that all sex outside God’s intended design is perversion and hinders intimacy and unity.
  • “There’s an aspect to intimacy that requires two bodies to become one… So when we engage in the act of masturbation, we’re stepping outside of God’s design.” (10:55, D)

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3. Returning to Sin: The Pain and Mercy of God’s Deliverance

(11:59–14:37)

• Both Preston and Ezekiel reflect on the unique torment and mercy that comes when a believer returns to sin after deliverance.
  • “The funny thing about sin is you could live comfortable with it your whole life, but once you were made aware how offensive it is to a holy and righteous God, it becomes… a nagging something in your heart…” (13:06, B)
• The group highlights that true deliverance changes your affections—what used to satisfy brings discomfort, which is actually a gift of mercy.

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4. How The Azonwus Met: Attraction & God’s Wisdom

(14:38–24:33)

• Kyana shares their first meeting story, initially not feeling attraction due to being in another relationship.
• Ezekiel describes how at first he did not notice Kyana’s beauty, attributing it to God veiling his eyes until he was spiritually prepared.
  • “God was just working on my heart…in my lustful mode…with her I just really wanted to see her, and the more that she showed her honor for the Lord, I was just so drawn to her.” (22:27, D)
• Kyana called Ezekiel after church, and his corny but heartfelt “You can call me any time” made their romantic intentions clear.

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5. Redefining Beauty and Attraction in Relationships

(24:44–28:42)

• The group discusses the cultural obsession with external beauty and the pitfalls of dating primarily for aesthetics.
• Kyana argues that true ugliness is found in character, not appearance.
  • “There’s a lot of people, their inside shines on the outside…Everybody just two steps away from being ugly anyway.” (25:40, C)
• The panel notes the tendency for everyone to pursue the same “universal” standard of beauty, ignoring compatibility and substance.
  • “What will sustain us is your character… your walk, and your intimacy with God. And the Bible says that beauty is fleeting, so what will we be when you’re 80?” (28:28, A)

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6. Vanity, Friendship, and the Importance of Community

(28:43–38:36)

• The conversation pivots to the need for friendship as a foundation for marriage.

• Ezekiel stresses the value of slow, organic discernment and deep friendships, rather than immediate romantic intent.

• The church’s role in cultivating healthy male-female friendships is emphasized as a corrective to the “dating for aesthetics” mentality.

• On sovereignty, Jackie and Preston reflect that while practical steps like attending events are helpful, God’s will and timing remain central.

  • “Either God is in control, or he isn’t…If God wants you to be married…devils, demons, ugly ain’t gonna keep you from your husband.” (38:42, A)

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7. Making Room for God’s Sovereignty & Organic Relationship Building

(38:37–40:02)

• Preston observes that often, God’s best for us comes as we participate in organic, faithful community, not through forced efforts.
  • “God is the master of setting us up. But we mess up when we try to set our own self up.” (39:45, B)

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8. Forgiveness, Growth, and Patience in Marriage

(40:02–44:47)

• Jackie asks Kyana how she handled Ezekiel’s struggles with pornography.
  • Kyana shares how God convicted her to intercede for Ezekiel rather than distancing herself, growing her patience and grace for him.
  • “God gave me a grace for him and that is how we are here today.” (43:06, C)
• The two couples discuss how each partner often has what the other needs most in marriage, fostering mutual growth.

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9. Getting Married Young & The Value of Premarital Tools

(44:48–48:50)

• The Azonwus share about marrying at 21—with little preparation, minimal resources, no marriage counseling, and no discipleship—and how that led to predictable struggles.
  • “We got married too young with no tools…some things you just going to go through. You don’t know what the future holds.” (47:41, C)
  • Ezekiel reflects: “What does it mean to honor each other’s bodies and protect each other’s assignments? The stuff that we know now…” (48:02, D)

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10. Sex, Discipleship, and Healing Sexual Brokenness in Marriage

(48:51–54:25)

• The group addresses the common problem: passion before marriage dissipates after covenant, leaving couples frustrated.
  • “I think the enemy wants us to be liberal with our bodies before marriage and then in covenant…wants us to be stingy with our bodies.” (46:28, A)
• They emphasize communication and trusted community support as practical tools for restoring intimacy.
  • “Communication has helped me in my marriage…I think what the devil really wants is us to be offended, and he wants us to shut down.” (49:18, B)
  • “We need to normalize…having a dynamic where we lean and glean from couples who’ve been married for years.” (50:44, D)
• Preston points out the discipleship gap: helping men be patient, helping women see the spiritual implications of “weaponizing” sex.

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11. Balancing Marriage, Work, and Family—Staying Intimate

(54:26–62:29)

• The Azonwus share their practical approach: doing business, parenting, and household management together, blurring traditional “roles” to stay connected.
  • "We do a lot of it together...We run the business together. We take care of the kids together." (54:57, C)
  • Ezekiel: “She likes quality activity…When we’re working together, at the end of the day, she’s like, ‘I had a great day with you.’” (56:16, D)
• Humor breaks out as the group admits how marital intimacy helps men work better, and the need to also meet wives’ unique needs.
• Both couples agree on the importance of integrating friendship, affection, business, and shared faith as a source of joy and resilience.

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12. The Power of Community, Legacy, and New Projects

(62:29–End)

• Ezekiel and Kyana promote their new “We Need To Talk” podcast and upcoming event, dedicated to repairing generational divides and building healthy marriages and singles’ communities.
  • “We really want to see restoration and reconciliation for this generation of singles and married people.” (63:13, D)

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Memorable Quotes

• On sin and deliverance:

  • “When you go back [to sin], it’s kind of like, ugh. And I think that's a mercy.” (14:02, B)

• On sexuality and God’s design:

  • “Any form of sex outside God’s design is perversion…and that’s the heart behind that.” (10:55, D)

• On beauty and attraction:

  • “Everybody just two steps away from being ugly anyway…money really does help change people.” (25:40, C)

• On friendship as foundation:

  • “Those are the best relationships…because you started off as friends and you’re still friends to this day.” (32:30, B)

• On God’s sovereignty:

  • “If God wants you to be married…devils, demons, ugly ain’t gonna keep you from your husband.” (38:42, A)

• On patience and grace:

  • “God designed her to have a level of patience for me, for my growth…his distinct, unique grace that he put in a vessel that was designed for me.” (43:06–43:43, D)

• On the struggles of early marriage:

  • “We didn’t get married too young; we got married too young with no tools.” (47:40, C)

• On reimagining Christian culture:

  • “If we could extend that heart that we have for our blood relatives to the body and not create this dichotomy…we can benefit from that.” (36:46, D)

• On balancing life and love:

  • “Surrounding the hard things with the fun things helps…having sex and then doing business gives me fuel to do that.” (59:51, D)

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Notable Segments (with Timestamps)

• Ezekiel’s porn-in-church story – 02:45–06:45
• Discussion on sin, conviction, and deliverance – 11:59–14:37
• How the Azonwus met—different perspectives – 14:38–24:33
• Vanity, friendship, and God’s design for community – 28:43–38:36
• Practical advice on discipleship and marriage intimacy – 48:51–54:25
• Maintaining intimacy with work, family, and ministry – 54:26–62:29
• Announcement of ‘We Need To Love’ event and resources – 63:13–End

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Final Thoughts

This episode delivers a generous mix of laughter, transparency, spiritual depth, and practical wisdom for Christians navigating singleness, dating, marriage, and friendship. The Perrys and Azonwus model honest conversations about personal failures and marital victories, reminding listeners that God’s grace and sovereignty are greater than our mistakes, and that true beauty and intimacy are ultimately sustained by friendship, character, faith, and community—not fleeting aesthetics or performance.

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Listen if you want: Real talk about relationships, wise advice for singles, transparency around addiction and healing, and encouragement for thriving in Christ-centered community and marriage.

Transcript

[A]

It's the Saints and the A. It's the Saints and the Ain't. We're just all Saints. It's the Saints and the aids. Look at her.

[B]

Look at her face.

[A]

The Saints and D. A. I like it. See?

[B]

Okay, our show isn't named the Saints and the Ain't.

[C]

Oh, I'm so used to it. But.

[D]

Okay.

[C]

Are we gonna do that all the time?

[A]

No.

[C]

Okay.

[D]

Intro.

[A]

But you liked it.

[C]

We could do something with it.

[A]

I should make an album out of it.

[C]

Saints and the A. Yeah, yeah. Next time. Next time.

[A]

She put a key on that.

[B]

Can we just drop the Saints and the A?

[A]

It's. It's with the Perry with the Aan Woos.

[B]

What up, Aan Woo?

[D]

Hi, guys.

[B]

How you. How you guys doing, man?

[C]

Good.

[D]

Honor. Honor, man. Honored to be back in the building with my wife. You know what I'm saying? It's not an actual building. This is actually your living room.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So some of you guys may remember we had Ezekiel on. He's our friend, but we haven't had Kyana on yet, so it's an honor for you guys to be on.

[A]

And Kyana told us that she doesn't do podcasts.

[B]

You don't.

[A]

So this is my Kyana.

[B]

This is. This is our first one, right?

[C]

Yeah. Now. Now I have to do. Now I have. I took this invitation. Now that's going to open more doors and I can't tell people no anymore.

[A]

So, honestly, here's the thing. What's the point of having shiny skin?

[D]

Come on.

[A]

If you're not going to be doing podcasts, you can't.

[C]

Can. Oh, they could see us. They could see. Because I was gonna say.

[A]

She said, see us.

[C]

Okay, so that has nothing to do with a podcast to have good skin and shiny hair. I walk in the streets. I'm not in home, just hiding. But thank you. Thank you. But I. I accept podcast invitations now. I put that out there.

[A]

So the. The whole motive here is that they are our friends. They have a lot of helpful and good things to say, they're humorous, and they have a story to tell. And so we just really wanted them on to. To ask them questions that we already know the answer to, such as when y' all meet, how long y' all been married? Why y' all like each other, Why y' all still married? Y' all got five kids. How y' all do that? Y' all got businesses. One of y' all is African. One of y' all is African American. Another one of y' all was Addicted to porn. The porn went off while you was in church. You know what I'm saying? But your wife still loves you. You didn't think Kyana was as cute as you think she is now?

[B]

Yeah, Ezekiel was interested.

[C]

Let's talk about you.

[B]

Heard.

[A]

Was.

[C]

Hey.

[D]

Whoa. You did not.

[A]

No, let's start with that story. Let's start with that story. We got a lot of stories.

[D]

No, you did not.

[A]

So you had. You had a.

[C]

You had a porn problem in the.

[D]

That's not appropriate. Why?

[A]

Why. Why was porn playing on your phone in church?

[D]

All right, first of all.

[B]

Wait, should we start there? Should we start with how they. How they met?

[A]

No, start with the this. How this. How you get the people. They gonna stay watching now.

[D]

All right, so first of all, I.

[B]

Can'T click off of this. I want. I want to know. Was somebody clapping? Stop somebody.

[D]

Intensity. The way your eyebrow was bent. I didn't like that.

[B]

Somebody was definitely clapping. Explain the clap.

[D]

Your clap. We gonna talk about that? All right, so anyway, I was wearing a trench coat. See, that's. That's what messed me up. Yeah, I had a trench coat. You know, back in the day, trench coats was popular.

[C]

I was there. I just don't remember you wearing a trench coat.

[D]

Yeah, I was wearing a trench coat. And so somehow, some way, I was sitting in church. Okay, let's go back. At this time, I was actively watching porn, but not in public places. If I watched porn, it might have been the night before, but I had a BlackBerry, and it's not touchscreen. That's how I knew either the Lord sabotaged me or Satan was against me. So it's not touchscreen somehow, you know, the tab must have been touched. While I was actively actually worshiping in church and praising God.

[B]

And.

[D]

And by the time it was time to sit down for the sermon, something had already started going. While the praise and worship was going on. And we couldn't hear it because things were still live. My dad started going into his sermon, and you could hear something faint. Then it got louder. You could hear a little talking. Then you could hear the stuff that was happening. It said, okay, I hate that memory because I'm sitting right next to my wife. And then all of a sudden.

[C]

I said.

[D]

I tried to join in harmony. I stood up and was like, oh, we can do the anthropo. And I walked out of the door. Cause I couldn't.

[C]

I couldn't take it out my pocket.

[D]

I couldn't press stop. I couldn't press pause.

[A]

So you start worshiping over the pornography.

[C]

I think everybody.

[D]

Isn't that what the Lord called?

[C]

I think everybody in our area knew what was going on. Cause I looked at you, you hearing them type of noises.

[B]

Ain't no way.

[D]

I was really loud with my praise.

[C]

But we heard the phone first. We heard the phone first.

[D]

If people heard that, they wouldn't have respected me.

[C]

I'm very observant and I think if I didn't know, I would still know.

[A]

So, Kyona, when that went off, what was happening in your mind when you heard the claps?

[C]

My good. I was embarrassed because I didn't want nobody to know. I know this guy. Like, he's sitting right next to me and I hear mom groans like, you.

[D]

Didn'T want to be connected to me no more.

[C]

It would have been better if I was on the other side. But still in my. I don't know if this is evil to say. It's probably. It's like, yeah, that served you right. Like I felt like, uh huh. Yeah. Yep, that's God talking to. Exactly, exactly.

[A]

Anyway, you think God set you up?

[D]

Yeah, I think sometimes, you know, God's like, humble yourself or I'm a humble you. So I think that was one of those moments that my reality caught up with me. Did I stop at that moment? Probably decreased the intensity that week, but I probably continued. I really had to get to a place where I recognized what I was doing and got to a place where I could share God's heart about what I was doing and about myself. Other time I was like, she doesn't know this story, but annoying. I was actually at her house and before we were married, we were not married and I'm not sure how it was happening. Maybe I think she stepped out with her mom or something like that to go do something. I just stayed back at the house and I was on their computer and I was like, I'm about to, you.

[A]

Know, not you watching porn at somebody else's house.

[D]

Hey, listen. Okay, so look, y' all not about to judge me on the Perry's podcast where this is supposed to be a home of grace.

[B]

No, no, no. I've shared my, my, you know, my experience, you know, struggle with porn on this podcast. But you had a problem because, like, you couldn't even wait till you get home.

[A]

Yeah, dang you somebody else's house.

[B]

You live.

[D]

The Internet was real good.

[A]

And it's a desktop, meaning you on a little slide up chair with the mouse.

[D]

Had the whole stool chair that sat right. Like I was supposed to be doing homework.

[C]

I want to hear the rest of the story. What happened?

[D]

Well, anyway, went on the site and was searching because I didn't really get into it yet, but I was searching. You know, when you be on the deep searches, I was just looking, looking, looking to find the stuff. And somehow, some way, I don't know how it was possible. I didn't click nothing but my picture. And her picture that we had taken a few years ago just popped on the screen. And the way I felt when I saw it. No. Was not the screensaver.

[C]

That was my mama computer.

[D]

That was your mom's computer. I don't know. It could have been an old tab that her mom had, but I didn't click nothing to make it come up. And I was very convinced and convicted. I was like, the Lord is trying to show me something and stop me in my tracks. You know what I did? I minimized that. I was too far. What I minimized.

[B]

So you was like, I hear you talking, Lord, but.

[A]

But you didn't exit.

[D]

I just got it. I just gotta see what you have you ever. If you've never smoked crack, you'll never know what the crack person has. Like, imagine if a crackhead was smoking, right? And they're halfway through. Wait, at that point, if you tell them to quit smoking crack, they'll be.

[C]

Like, I got you for sure.

[D]

Driving to the mall. But right now.

[B]

I got to get this crack. And look, listen, y', all, we not make it for.

[D]

No, seriously.

[B]

Not making for the drug addictions. But. Oh, so the Lord gave you a sign.

[D]

Yes.

[B]

I was probably like, put the pipe down the side.

[A]

Was probably intended.

[B]

This beautiful woman is going to be your wife one day.

[D]

Yes.

[B]

And porn. Yes, porn will affect this, will affect that. And you was like.

[D]

You shush the Lord. I look back on a lot of my actions and my immaturity, and I'm just like, this is. And it's probably why, when I look back, I have so much mercy for other people. Like, because I feel like I reached the edge of depravity.

[C]

I'm just glad he saved you. So when did you make the poem?

[D]

No, okay. When I made the poem.

[B]

People, context for the poem.

[D]

Okay. I made a poem called. It was called Exodus. Right? And throughout the piece, I was basically wanting to highlight one of the reasons why I stayed in pornography and masturbation was because no one could give me valid biblical reasoning why this was really a sin. That was really what it was. I was just like, this is so obscure that I'm just going to continue it. Until God shows me. Shows me. Because I ask pastors, I look on YouTube, I look on Google, and I'm pretty much getting mixed answers. And so I'm just. Well, I'm just gonna. I'm just gonna continue. And so God convicted my heart, took me through his scripture, and made it so palatable and clear that this is my heart, not just for. I didn't really get. This is personal conviction. It was like, this is my heart for this. And I'm calling you to be an ambassador for my truth. And so when I. When I made the poem, I basically creatively just showed how you can sin in many ways with just one act. But truthfully, the trut. The act of masturbation, I could go into it, but it's basically another stem or another branch of perversion. God created sex to be a particular way. Yes, to be fruitful and multiply between man and a woman in the confines of marriage. But he also called sex to be had to create intimacy between two so that they can become one. It's the reason why it says one flesh, contextually. Flesh. Why are we talking about flesh when we're really talking about a union in spirit?

[B]

Break it down.

[D]

Because there is an aspect to intimacy that requires two bodies to become one, and God literally created that. So when we engage in the act of masturbation, we're stepping outside of God's design, which any form of sex outside of God's design is perversion. And so that's kind of the heart behind that. I did the poem. I felt completely convicted. Yes, I felt delivered at the time, but I fell after that. But falling after that, it's something about falling and going back after God truly sets you free. Like there's. And I've been preaching about this a lot. I feel like you get to a particular season as God grows you and God humbles you, that falling and going back hurts more and costs more. Yeah, it's going to cost you more. And I have seen that time and time again. Like, I can't even. You can't afford to slip in places that he's brought you from. Not just because he's calling you to be perfect, because of the mercy that was poured out over your life for that.

[A]

So I feel like that with marijuana. Talk about it, because I used to smoke a lot of weed before Jesus, right. And I remember when I was a new Christian, I was going through a situation. I always smoke when I was anxious or mad or bored, which is everything. And so I was mad about something. I text My friend, I'm like, hey, you got a L, which is one blunt. And he was like, yeah, he was excited. Cuz I've been at church and I ain't, I ain't seen my friends in a long time. You know what I'm saying? We can read. Like, we can fellowship around, you know, drug addiction and stuff. So he came, I smoked and I felt tormented. Like my mind was all over the place. I felt like I was hearing things and seeing things and I was even thinking about like, what would it look like if I ever tried to smoke weed now? Right? Like, I feel like the enemy would take advantage of that door in a way to affect my mind that might not affect somebody else's mind. You see what I'm saying?

[B]

That's good.

[A]

Like, it's like I can't play with that.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

I can't be coming against demons and playing with that.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I, I've had similar thing with porn. And also we both, I, I, it's not a plug for my book, but I did, I did write a line in my book. I said, the funny thing about sin is you could live comfortable with it your whole life, but once you were made aware how, how, how offensive it is to a holy and a righteous God, it becomes a, a, a, a a like a nagging something in your heart or whatever. Like. And that's what I felt when I, when I gave my life to the Lord and I smoked weed again. I, I also felt tortured. But also when the Lord delivered me from, from porn, when I went back, it was like this, this is what it means to return back to your vomit. Because before I didn't, I didn't like, I think when you knee deep in a sin, you don't realize how disgusting it is.

[A]

You still got an affection for it.

[B]

You still have an affection for it, but when you go back to it, it's kind of like, ugh. And I think that's a mercy.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's.

[B]

I think that's what we got to realize. Like, it's, it's truly a mercy for the Lord to deliver you for something. And even though it hurts, when you go back to it, it's still a mercy. Because you talked about drug addicts, when they go back to it, if they don't have the spirit of God, it still feels good and they relapse. But it's like for the Christian, when you got the Holy Spirit, it's like the Lord is like, I'm not even gonna allow you to relapse. Yeah, because I'm. I'm gonna make that thing be disgusting to you. And so I think, man, I just thank God for being merciful to us in that way.

[D]

I love that.

[A]

When y' all met, where did you meet? Did you like his face? Were you attracted to him? Did you say, I think this is my husband?

[C]

Like, not the first time. Yes. Not the first time. What? Cut it out. Anyways, full of pride. Tear it down. When I first met him, I actually was in a relationship already, so really, it was. Yeah.

[B]

What was his name? Gravy.

[C]

I'm not George.

[A]

The Finger is crazy.

[C]

So we met through a mutual friend. Me and her had the same major. Did y' all know my major? Y' all know my major, right?

[A]

No.

[C]

Yes. You do school? Yes. Deaf studies.

[A]

Oh, no.

[C]

Sign language. Yes. Asl. So me and her were taking classes together. She knew him from middle school. Yeah, okay. Yeah, she knew him from middle school. She's a social butterfly like me. She started talking to somebody else, but she left him right there and me right there. So we just was like, hi, I'm Kyana. He's such and such. And we went on about, you were like, 19.

[A]

20.

[C]

I was 18.

[D]

18.

[C]

I was 18. So then the following semester or the end of the semester, I no longer had that boyfriend anymore. So when I saw him again, I was like, oh, he's cute. But that was it. He mentioned he goes to church a lot. I said, oh, really? Where's your church? I told him I promised him I was gonna come, but it was. I was so active in my church, I was not able to attend. When I said I was coming, finally I did show up, and I just said, he was cute.

[D]

Didn't that sound like someone who was interested? You know, you fell off the rebound of love. I illuminated before you, and you just said, you got a church I want. Did you ask everybody that you wanted to go to their church?

[C]

You was the only one right there.

[D]

That said, I just want to continue with the story.

[B]

Give him some props.

[C]

Yeah, okay, I give it to him. But what happened when I walked through the doors of the church? What happened?

[D]

So, first of all, in that process, when she told me she was coming to church at that time, like, I was just committed, devoted. Like, I really wanted a woman that was saved. Saved that loved the Lord. So when she said she wanted to come to church, I was just like, okay. She just really just. She likes me.

[C]

You're saying I liked you at that time?

[D]

I think she was interested in me. I'm like, she's interested in me. She wants to come. All right. And I didn't think much of her. Like, really, I didn't think much of her. And then she said she was going to come a particular Sunday. She didn't come. I was like, yep, just like the woman of the world. Yeah, exactly. Yep. And then she came for the evening service. I don't know what happened when she walked through those doors.

[A]

Cue the music, man.

[D]

Yes. She was literally the finest thing I've ever seen. Gorgeous. I was like, my eyes just lit up. I just. I came and gravitated towards her. I was asking her all types of questions.

[C]

I'm like, get out of my sister. I thought you was cute, but you just a little bit too nosy and annoying. He started. So what school did you go to? How long have you been friends with Karen? And she just. All in my face.

[A]

He was giving you the interview voice.

[C]

Yes, yes, yes. I was sitting in the. The church didn't start yet. They you. Y' all know Africans, Nigerians, particularly late. I came on time, me and my sister and my friend that introduces. And we just sitting there like, when is church gonna start? And he was like, oh, oh, you guys. And he was just sitting in front of me in another, what they call it, a pew, the chair or whatever, and just asking me tons of questions. And I'm just playing it cool, like getting to see, notice, you know, what's the vibe and all that. And.

[D]

And when it was time to go, what happened?

[C]

I thanked him and gave him a hug. Thank you.

[A]

You did an over shoulder hug?

[D]

No, let's talk about this hug.

[C]

I thought I did.

[A]

Because it does make a difference how you love people.

[D]

I love how God uses her in the prophetic. Because the way she hugged me, that's what sealed the deal.

[C]

This is what he thought. He felt. I think it was God.

[D]

It was like, oh, and this.

[B]

I think it was your infatuation.

[C]

It was because you know what? I didn't even hug him to leave. I was walking outside on the sidewalk and he was like, hey, hey. I want to thank you for coming. Coming. So I was like, oh, yeah, thank you for having us. And I gave him a hug. So I don't think I would be that aggressive on the street like that. I didn't, I didn't premeditate it or anything. Now this is what happened. This is what really sealed the deal for us. I called him to say, you know what? It was very. It was inspiring and refreshed. That's the word I use. Refreshing to see a young man of God just be so serious. And he was like, oh, thank you. And then he said it like this. You can call me any time.

[A]

Not any.

[C]

Yes, he did. Yes, he did.

[D]

You said that.

[C]

Knee time. And I was just like, he.

[A]

Baby face.

[B]

Yeah, you was a cornball.

[A]

That was nice.

[B]

So when he said that. So when he said that, did you know he likes you?

[C]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Without a shadow of a doubt. I said, okay.

[B]

That was so cool.

[C]

I said, okay, you can call me. Call me anytime.

[D]

First of all, I don't like how y'. All. It wasn't all that. It was just, you can call me. Put some bass in it.

[C]

You can call me any time.

[A]

So when did y' all know?

[B]

Well, I got a question real quick.

[A]

I'm sorry.

[B]

So before we. We go there, you. You always. You always say you've often told this story about how you felt like there was a Lord that made you not see Kyana for who she truly was. And I always thought that was very helpful for men to understand, like, why the Lord did that. Because you said when you first saw her, you was like, you know, and then she walks in, she looks the same, but you. You know, and so can you explain why you feel like the Lord did that?

[D]

It's really hard for me to explain. But what I can say in that time, I was really. I was serious in that I wanted God's will for my life. Like, I did not want at that time. She doesn't agree, but I had dated women, women that I thought were attractive. And so I was just like, okay.

[B]

Sounds like my wife, everybody before her.

[C]

No.

[A]

What's the mean?

[B]

Mid.

[C]

No, I didn't say that. I didn't say that. Oh, I didn't say that. Yeah. I'm just saying, like.

[D]

Anyway, so what I would say. What I. What I would say is they were attractive. And I was just like, okay, so the answer is not in just being with an attractive woman. So I was over the. I just got to be with a woman that I think is fine. So potentially, I was at that place where even if I saw a fine woman, it just wasn't enough for me. What really drew me was her commitment, was her following and keeping her word. And even as that built up, like, God was calling me to. Causing me to be even more and more attracted to her as the days went by. I had a friend that was in high school with me, and he knew, like, anytime I'll talk to a girl, I'd be done after, like, 23 days. They bored me. Like, I was just done. Like, I just like to just entertain them for a little bit. And I was just like, on to the next one. And I was like, bro, it's been three months since I've been talking to this girl, and I'm not tired of her. He was like, what? Yeah, three months. And I was like, bro, we ain't talking about nothing. All she do is talk about the Lord. And I just. I'm captivated. And I'm just like. And she literally. We weren't, like, playing around. She was just testifying and talking about how the Lord is just working in her life and all of this. And I was just moved. And I think God was just working on my heart. Like, in my lustful mode. Like, a year back, I would want to be getting to the sexual conversations, but it wasn't like that with her. I just really wanted to see her. And the more that she showed her honor for the Lord, I was just so drawn to her.

[A]

That's dope.

[B]

Yeah, I think that's dope. Because I think, you know, I think if. If young men under. Well, not just young men, both young men and young women understood that it's not just about the physical man. Right. Like, I. I think because for me, I often tell this story before I met Jackie, the what I looked, and I didn't even know what to look for in a wife until the Lord showed me what to look for. And until the Lord showed me, you know, I really took the veils off my eyes, and it was like, you don't even know what you need. So help. Let me help you show you what you actually should be desiring. Like, our affections and our desires is all screwed up, but for the life of me, I couldn't understand why I would. Like, for the life of me, I couldn't understand why I would start liking a girl and they would just lose my interest so fast. And the more and more guys that I talk to, they all go, like, not all, but a lot of them go through that. And I think that's the reason why they be out here breaking women's hearts is because they. They. They be so invested so quick because they look on the, you know, the outside, but the woman has no intellectual interest, you know, And. And so I think that's the reason why men get, like, you know, easily dislike, like, disinterested. So I think it's dope that the Lord didn't show you her physical beauty first, but also, like, you know, allows.

[D]

You to like, and isn't that dope? That along the way, like, my wife, literally, I think just in real time, too, has even become more attractive. I've adored her from the beginning, from the inside, and even to this day. But even physically, outwardly, she's become even more physically attractive to me. So she started off, she was beautiful, but I think today, she's even more beautiful than when I met her. And I think that's a grace and a reward for those who are able to journey with people, because I think you guys could testify, as you guys are coming into yourselves, it's like, oh. Oh, it gets better with time.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Because Jackie definitely finer like you.

[A]

She was. She was.

[B]

She was really pretty back in the day, but it's just like, man, it's.

[D]

Just coming into yourself. It's different.

[B]

I'd be like, well, you better be lucky I got a vasectomy.

[D]

It's something about giving a woman another baby. Oh, sheesh.

[A]

So, Ezekiel, you've made posts. I think both of y'.

[D]

All.

[A]

You don't. You don't make posts like that. But y' all have talked about attraction and beauty, and somebody could perceive some of the messaging as. So y' all want me to marry somebody that's ugly? What is your response to people, like, people who either put too much on attraction and aesthetics and, like, what it. Like, you know what I'm saying?

[D]

Yeah. Where's the balance, Right?

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Well, a lot of times by ugly.

[A]

I just mean universally. Universally unattractive.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because everybody's pretty to somebody.

[C]

Yes. Yes. Mainly somebody. Somebody.

[A]

The father.

[C]

I think a lot of times people put too much on beauty because I. My. I mean, he's gonna disagree, but my ex was attractive to a lot of people. But when you got to know that guy. What are you doing? What are you doing?

[D]

I'm just. I'm sitting.

[C]

When you got to know him and just get to. I mean, hopefully he's grown, because this was years ago. You know, we was young, and you got to know him. It's just like, oh, you. You. You so ugly. You act ugly, and. And that. It shows on the outside. So I think what he's trying to say and what I'm trying to say is get to know somebody. I mean, he didn't see me, and how could you not see me Tell people about that? So I think you just really need to get to know somebody's personalities and someone's character, because there's a lot of people, their inside shines on the outside, and I think Everybody just two steps away from being ugly anyway. I mean, put me on the street, no makeup, no attractive, no hair attractor. You know, and. And money, you know, money really does help change people.

[A]

So you said one time when we was on tour that you feel like a lot of people are dating for aesthetics. Definitely explain that.

[C]

A lot of people. It makes no sense why everybody likes the same person. You mean to tell me, no matter how you look and you think you're beautiful, you guys all like the same person that looks the exact same way, don't know nothing about him or nothing about her. But just because of this particular face, everyone is attracted and drawn in to that same person. And I do believe that we can be attracted to what we look like. But you don't even want to like what people that's like somebody that's dark skinned and say, I'd never want to date a dark skinned person. So do you not find yourself attractive? Do you not find yourself beautiful?

[B]

Because I do think. I do think that, you know, beauty is a thing. I think God create beautiful things for a particular reason. But I do think that like. Like if we're not careful, we can allow our hearts to start thinking. Like, for example, like when you said that the first person I thought about was a friend that we all knew who came to my church and all the girls thought that he was cute. But it's like all y' all think that Lord is showing y' all. He your husband. Yeah. It's like y' all all like this one dude and. But I bet you if his face looked like a foot, you wouldn't be. Y' all wouldn't be having these dreams and. Cause some of y' all lying, right? The Lord ain't showing all y' all look.

[A]

Face is wild.

[B]

A foot face.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's crazy, right? And it's crazy how like, I think God creates beauty for a particular reason. But I think that it's not. Beauty isn't the problem. My hearts are.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like we, we like our hearts deceive us when we see something that, that we want. You know what I'm saying?

[A]

Because I understand you. I think it's legitimate and fair to want to be attracted to your partner.

[D]

Absolutely.

[A]

Right. You want to roll over and say, I like that, that. But I also think that there are so many trials and tests in marriage and relationship that the aesthetic won't matter.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

When we going through something.

[D]

Come on.

[A]

So what will sustain us is your character.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What will sustain us is your walk in Your intimacy with God. And the Bible says that beauty is fleeting. So what will we be when you're 80?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Will I love you still? You understand? So I think that's the thing.

[B]

But I do often think about if I ever get it again a got a gut. Because you said so many times, if I got a gut, you wouldn't be able to handle it for sure.

[C]

But you can lose a gut.

[A]

Because that's something you can change. Like, like somebody's. The shape of their nose and their eyes and like that's what the Lord has given them. They can't necessarily change that unless they're a Kardashian. Right. But I think stuff like your weight, that's. Should we talk about that? Like, is it okay to want your spouse to be a certain weight?

[D]

I agree to a certain extent. I think to a certain extent, I'll just say this. God has designed nature in a way that we are rewarded for delayed gratification. So the idea that I need to satisfy my impulsive desires always to get to reap long lasting rewards, it doesn't always happen like that. So oftentimes. So we want our bodies to be in shape. It takes time, it takes work. We want a beautiful relationship. It takes time, it takes investment, it takes work. So why do we think that we can just demand, okay, I want the best looks, I want the best physique from this person. I want to demand all of the top things just off rip for nothing. Like, nobody wants the journey, nobody wants the time, nobody wants the effort. And I think, think you rob yourself of the reward of the true beauty. And I will say this like, I don't think you'll lose getting to know someone. Like, conversation and time is just slow discernment. Wow. I mean, isn't it like, I just, I don't need discernment so I can know if I'm going to marry you. I just want to have conversation with. With everybody. And I'm not gonna be closed off to any conversation or being engaged with people and being in fruitful community with people. Cause it allows me to know how to navigate relationships accordingly. You're an associate, you're a brother, you're a sister. And I think that's healthy. So I think as a community, if we just did better, we talk about this a lot with friendship and just natural, organic communication. Having conversation like, oh, I'm not about to talk to Preston because he's not my husband material. Like, that's a brother. Having a conversation with you could open the door to say, Hey, I was talking to this dope girl. She's dope and producing. I think you guys could connect. Hey, we start connecting because we're dope. We could start connecting on producer.

[B]

And what's crazy is that's the reason why a lot of people end up not marrying their friend, because they don't want to go through that process. Right? They, they, they're so. Sometimes we're so fixated on only going after what we feel like is universally attractive to, to, to all people.

[D]

Yes.

[B]

And I also think it's a lot of vanity in it. I'm not gonna talk to that person with that big nose. But it's like, man, God might wanna fix his nose two years from now. He might look exactly how you want him to look. But he's so compatible to you right now. But you're talking to all these dudes and you saying, dudes ain't nothing. But it's like not a dude you wanna talk to.

[D]

No, but the big nose matches your big ego. So let's just talk about the fact that we don't have no grace, right. For imperfections.

[B]

And so I, so I do think that it's. If the church, I, I, I think, I think it's a discipleship issue. I think the church has to do a better job of teaching young men and young women to be, to, to be brothers and sisters in Christ. We shouldn't just go to church with this mind frame of who husband is, this walking in the door, like, you know what I'm saying? As soon as a young man walk, walk into church. I think people need to learn how to be brothers and sisters. And I think that's how organic friendships are formed. And I think those are the best relationships. Because when I hear you guys talk, I think that's the reason why you guys have been married for 15. Off as friends.

[D]

Yes.

[B]

You started off as friends and you're still friends to this day.

[A]

So that's dope.

[C]

And honestly, I remember when I decided I was like, I do want to be serious with this guy, God. And I remember praying to God, saying, you know what? I do not want to just look at his appearance. I want to make sure that it's somebody that can hold me for the long run. Because every married couple could say, it don't matter how fine or how beautiful you guys are, there's going to be times where you just, just, you do not like each other. And those looks did not hold him. You know, I don't know how many times I said, well, I Guess we could say now, like, I don't want to be with you anymore. And it did not matter that he was cute to me in the beginning or at that time. So I remember praying and asking God, like, please make sure that this is somebody that will look after me in the long run.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Can I, can we talk about that real quick? I don't know if, if we want to. I don't know if you got another question, but, but the last time you were on the podcast, and also when we did the tour together, we talked about friendship a lot. And when I think about me and, me and Jackie's relationship and I. And how the Lord brought us together, and I think about y' all relationship and how y', all, how the Lord brought y' all together, I, I, I do see a lot of the Lord's sovereignty in it.

[D]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah, it was a lot of. It was a lot of sovereignty of how you guys met, of how, how we met. But also, too, I think the average person, the average single person out there who is looking to be in a relationship, who wants to be married one day, of course they want to marry a friend. Right. And so what would I think if I'm, I'm the reason why I'm asking this question, because I'm putting myself in the single parent, the single person shoes right now who might be looking at y', all, looking at us and saying, I want what y' all have. But it seemed like God did something special.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

With y'.

[D]

All.

[B]

So, like, it's not like I'm just pursuing people who are not my friends or whatever. How. I think, how will we encourage people? I guess I can actually. How would y' all encourage people to, I guess, wait for the Lord to do that, or is there any tools to obtain a good, solid friendship with the opposite sex to get to that point? What advice would you give?

[D]

I think one thing I can say is what we've done because of social media, the dating apps and everything like that, we start diminishing people into profiles like that. We can swipe left. And so, you know, there's no opportunity to build with someone that I'm not attracted to, because my only idea of building has to end out the way that I planned it. Like, I cannot be a sister to this person with no ill intention, with no sexualization. I cannot build with you and honor you and you honor my assignment, and we not jump into the bed. Like, there's, there's no, first of all, culturally, there's. There's no room and we haven't laid a great foundation, even as. As a body, on what that even looks like for male and female relationship. So what I would say is, I believe it starts with you, for those of you that are convicted in that way, to say, hey, look, I want to begin to be more open to knowing what healthy relationships looks like. I want to. In my life, I want to set those boundaries, but also open up my mind to being available to my brothers, to serve my brothers in a way that honors them and honors my assignment. Of course, that does not create compromise, but to create that culture around me. So that I could say, like, at the end of the day, like, if my wife never became my wife, she would have definitely been my lifelong friend because of the way that the foundation of our relationship wasn't, oh, man, big booty, all that type of stuff. It was just like, literally, this woman honors God and she loves people. I remember I was at her house one day and just her brother called and said he was hungry, and she was scurrying to make him a sandwich to take it to his job. I'm just like, just the way that she loved her brother. I was like, well, then she gonna take care of me. And the way that she loved her brother is the way that she loves her friends and the way that she loves her family. And so. So if we could extend that heart that we have for our actual blood relatives to the body and not try to create this dichotomy to say, well, the men are over here, and if they're not about to be my husband, then I'm going to stand strong. And you don't speak to me, and I don't speak to you. We don't create an opportunity to serve each other in ways that I think we can benefit from. Y' all relationship to me, is so inspirational for that, because the fact that I just love this part. I know we're not supposed to. We weren't here to talk about your relationship, but when you were going through what you were going through with your exes, and you brought the conversation to Jackie, and she had the wherewithal to pray for you.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

What? And y' all got nothing going on?

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

That's crazy to me. And how many people can say they have a relationship with the opposite sex, that they're not sleeping together, but they're honestly taking each other to the Lord?

[A]

I think, on the subject of sovereignty, I remember when we did the we need to Talk tour, we would constantly get questions around, like, okay, I'm single What do I do? So should I go out? Should I get on dating apps? Should I, you know, go to mixers, network? And I think all of that is good and it's practical because I think it's realistic to say if you just stay up in the house, you probably limit the chance of somebody seeing you, meeting you, pursuing you. Right. Yet at the same time, I think maybe we have bought into this assumption that we can manufacture God's will. Right. Like I have to be in this place at this time. I have to connect with these people, I have to look this way, I have to. And it's like at the end of the day, even who you are is because God is sovereign. You didn't pick your parents, you didn't pick your genes, you didn't pick your city, you didn't like, you like. So I think maybe we have, we have this presumption of authority where we think, oh, if I just move a certain way, I'll find my spouse. But it's like at the end of the day, either God is in control or is. If he isn't, like, you could be, you could look a hot mess at 6:45 in the morning at Dunkin Donuts. And if God wants you to be married.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Devils, demons, ugly ain't gonna keep you from your husband.

[B]

I love that.

[D]

That's good.

[B]

That's good. But also too. I think I said devil, demons and ugly, ugly.

[D]

That's a principality. That's a principality.

[A]

He gonna find you if God wants him to find you.

[B]

Yeah. I think also too, just really understanding the way God created things, he really, he really created us to flourish in the confounds of the community that he has given us. Because I think when people think about me and Jackie, you know, we had a real com, like spoken word community. We had friends and we hung out with one another. We was always at, at events. And I, I don't think that we. I came into that community at that about thinking about which girl in this community is my wife. Right. I was just enjoying the community of creatives that God has given me in the body of Christ. And through that organic community that God gave me, like he's in his sovereignty. My wife was there, right. And so I, I do think that Christians really just need to take advantage because God, God, God is the master of setting us up.

[A]

Yeah, really, he's very good at that.

[B]

But we mess up when we try to set our own self up.

[D]

Up.

[B]

It's like, no, like I created something here. And if you're just Faithful and go into a community and live life. You will see how sovereign I really am. And so I'm not. I'm not doubting. I'm not. I'm not saying D naps is wrong. I'm just saying, like, trust the Lord.

[D]

Sovereignty, creation, the gag.

[A]

Even God uses the mistakes, you understand? Because before we got together, you were in a relationship with somebody, and y' all was messing up, up doing all type stuff. You know, she was washing your jaws, making crab legs at your sister's house. And like, somebody could have seen you and been like, this man is not going to have a healthy marriage.

[D]

Wow.

[A]

Because of the way he's moving. But even God is so faithful and so sovereign that he still overcame your immaturity. Right. And so I think even in y' all story, I remember you sharing about just some of the things that you struggle with, but God was still faithful. Like, you've learned from the things that you went through. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I have a question for Kiana.

[A]

Like.

[B]

Out of all the things that Ezekiel have struggled with, you know, cuz God. It's very obvious that God brought y' all together, and God wanted y' all to be together, have all these beautiful kids. Cuz y' all got more kids than us. They got more kids than us. About.

[C]

Only one. Only one. Y' all got a dog. Y got a dog. They got the same amount.

[B]

Yeah. Like. Like, what was the. What was your process in being patient with his process with. With the porn addiction? Him not seeing you for who you really was at first? Like. Because it seems as if, like, when I. Like when I'm around y', all, it could. I can tell that y' all really love one another, that y' all have a real genuine friendship. But I'm pretty sure it was hard at times. Right. And so what was the process of being patient with him, even as a leader in pursuing you?

[C]

Wow. I think, for one, God definitely gave me the spirit of patience, like, just being very graceful. And that's kind of funny that you worded it like that, because not one time did I ever look at it as like, you're not capable of leading me. You're not capable of, you know, being the head over this house. I think I just looked at it like, wow, he's really struggling. And to be honest, when he first used, like, he used to, like, tell me that a lot of times, like, all right, I'm about to go watch porn. I used to be like, that's between you and God. Because I'm like, you ain't you ain't about to put that on me. But then one day I got convicted and God was like, yes, that is on you.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

Have you prayed for him? Have. Have you made sure that he was taken care of? Like, cuz a lot of times I would deny him sex. Like, okay, this your punishment for the. For this evening because you didn't do what I wanted you to do. So when God convicted me with that, I was like, all right, okay. All right, guys. So how. How do you. Cuz I know if I don't listen you is. Is going to be wrath for me. So how should you want me. How do you want me to respond to this with him acting like this and he hid his porn addiction because I didn't even know it was as bad until I think the poem came out. I'm like, what you talking about? So I just think that God gave me a grace for him and that is how we are here today. And it's at the point now I don't even think we have arguments anymore. Like, we just.

[D]

I like that you. Because it reminds me of something that Preston said. Grace for me. Like God gave you a special grace. Like, I don't feel that the story would be the same if I were someone else. Like, God designed her to have a level of patience for me, for my growth. And that's just. And I, you know, when you said what you said and her saying it, it really just came to. For me to recognize, man, God is so good, that it's his grace, his distinct, unique grace that he put in a vessel that was designed for me. That's a.

[A]

That's crazy.

[D]

You're a good guy.

[B]

That's good.

[A]

Yeah. I told somebody two days ago, I said, God will often give you a partner that has what you don't have and has what you need. And I was talking about you, how like, I think you have a level of. You have a humanity to you and a sensitivity to you that draws that out of me. You know what I'm saying? Because you're a nurturer and all the things. But then I have a level of, I think discipline and structure that then helps you succeed in all the ways that God wants you to succeed. And so together, it just creates a good little situation. Yeah, I'm interested. Y' all got married at 22.

[C]

Really? 21. That's why I was thinking so hard earlier, because we got married at the courthouse.

[D]

Oh, was that 20?

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Oh, yeah, my bad. 21.

[C]

That's what I was thinking. I was like you was like, you don't know your numbers.

[A]

When people get married at the courthouse, I'll be like, oh, they've been having sex.

[D]

Oh, you was right on it.

[C]

We did, but that's what I'm like.

[D]

We got. That's not why we got married, though. That's the funny one.

[B]

We did.

[C]

That's not why we got.

[A]

Better to marry than to burn. We did.

[C]

It was because I wanted to put him on my benefits. He needed some dental work done. I had great benefits.

[D]

That's why we did it.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

No, yeah, I thought we did. To honor the Lord.

[C]

It wasn't the.

[A]

It wasn't the fornication.

[D]

I thought it was to honor. Honor the Lord.

[C]

I mean, that. That went along with it, but it was like. I remember because it was November and I said, I have to turn in this paper before such and such time. Because this is the last time I considered.

[D]

Well, it was to honor the Lord. Edit that out.

[C]

Okay. Yeah.

[A]

Question. This is a. This is something I'm really intrigued by that I haven't talked about publicly before. But there's something that happens when people are being sexually sinful before marriage where like they smashing all the time. They touching all the time, doing all the things. Things. But then when they get in covenant, that wanes where there's something about the fact that it's not rebellious anymore that makes it we. You get what I'm saying?

[C]

I know exactly what you people be smashing. All right? Right. And then they get married and it stops and all of a sudden, oh, leave me alone. I'm punishing you.

[D]

What is that?

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Talk about that demon.

[C]

We need to get well for him more on me. I don't. Maybe the response. Responsibility of now I have to. I don't know. I've never sat with that. I. It's demonic. Yeah, it really is. It's demonic.

[D]

It was because.

[C]

Why? Why? In my sinfulness. I didn't mind.

[A]

I think it's warfare. I really do. I. I think there is. I think the enemy wants us to be liberal with our bodies before marriage and then in covenant. I think he wants to. Wants us to be stingy with our bodies.

[D]

I rebuke that in the mighty name of Jesus.

[B]

We should work on that at night.

[D]

Because let's go to warfare. Because it's warfare. Then let's go to war because.

[B]

No, seriously, that spoke to me. That spoke to me because. That spoke to me because we shouldn't let the devil win.

[C]

Stutter too much.

[A]

Having to sit up.

[B]

No, seriously, adjust your Body. We should let the devil win.

[D]

How this make you.

[B]

The whole time, you honestly think about it being serious? No, I'm. I'm being serious, too. If you honestly think about it, we children of God.

[C]

I'm not saying we.

[B]

As children of God, we cannot let the devil win.

[D]

You don't feel.

[B]

You don't feel challenged? Look, I will cook early. I will feed the kids. I will put them down and we can go.

[D]

No, but seriously, cuz, we got to be serious about the. This war. We.

[B]

We can go to war.

[A]

Do y' all think that y' all got married too young?

[C]

We didn't get.

[A]

People tell you that.

[C]

Oh, I definitely had people tell me I was getting married too young, but I don't think we got married too young. I think we got married too young with no tools. We didn't do no marriage counseling. We didn't.

[D]

Wasn't discipled.

[C]

Was. No. My goodness.

[D]

Yeah, it.

[C]

Now, I don't even know if that would have saved us a lot of problems, because I think some things you just going to go through. You don't know what the future holds.

[A]

It would have helped.

[D]

Here's the thing. I love that you said that no tools. Like, I really wish the stuff that we're talking about right now is Greek. We never heard the things that we're hearing right now on this podcast that we're talking about. We never heard before that opportunity. Like, what does it mean to walk in integrity? What does it mean to honor each other's bodies and protect each other's assignments? Like, the stuff that we know now. And so that's why I said, look, now that you guys that are hearing this on the podcast, those of you that are listening, this is a grace. But it's also now that you have also now, to whom much is given, much is required. So you now have the advantage, but you also now have the tools. And God is expecting more.

[B]

And speaking. Speaking of tools, though, you know, I. I was joking when I was just doing all that.

[A]

You're not.

[D]

I wasn't. I'm not.

[B]

I wasn't, but I will.

[C]

I wasn't. I was.

[B]

It was. I was joking, but I wasn't. But at the same time, it's like when you talk about tools, it's like, what are some practical tools that we can give married couples who experience that? Because, you know, we heard a lady say one time, when you. When you're not in marriage, the devil wants you in everybody bed.

[D]

Yes.

[B]

And when you're in marriage, he wants you out of the Bed.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Particularly your spouse's bed. You know what I'm saying? And so, like, I think it would be good to think about what are some tools to fight against that. For me, I can say, you know, over communication has helped me in my marriage, and I. It becomes almost like a cliche, like communicating your marriage. You hear so much. But I think what the devil really wants. The devil wants us to be offended, and he wants us to shut down. And so for me, I couldn't understand why I was getting rejected. And so I really had to help myself process how I felt and had to communicate that to Jackie. And she needed to talk to me, and I needed to hear her whole. Because I. Because I. I think it's easy for a man to, To. To. To think you're not rejecting sex, you're rejecting me. Right, Absolutely. And I also think that a woman doesn't really understand why I wanted to jump his bones when we were engaged and when we were dating. And I just. I don't even want to touch him when we're. When we're married. And so I think that.

[A]

And you don't know where to, you know, it's hard to sometimes to express those things.

[D]

Come on. Right.

[A]

Because you don't know if it's a safe place or a safe person where you can say, hey, I'm. We're struggling with our sex life. Like, who. Where do you go to tell people that freely and get the, like, the wisdom that you actually need?

[D]

Yeah, well, I. I think part of it is we. We always over emphasize premarital counseling, but I think more than anything, it's. Is discipleship in general, but specifically in the area of marriage, I think couples need couples to walk with. If I got a guy that understands, and I heard he operates transparently in this relationship where he says, hey, look, when we started off, this was what's going on? We made mistakes here. I struggled in this area. Intimacy was a struggle. Then I'd be like, oh, intimacy was a struggle. When I have intimacy struggles, I'd be like, well, look, I'm having intimacy struggles. This is what's happening. And so, So I think we need to normalize in our Christian culture being able to have a dynamic. We don't have to have the coolest couple in the church that we cling to, but literally it could be the couple that you deem the lame couple, the boring couple, but they've been married for 20 years. They've been married for 17 years. And just being able to lean and glean from them because for us, that lack of exposure did us in. I was the wisest person, I won't say in the church. In my circle, married couples were coming to me, and I thought because I knew the scripture, I could counsel them. And so we were together and just making mistakes out of just this ignorance. And I think if we just had people that we could just lean to, I honestly believe we wouldn't have fell into the same things that we fell into. Like, we were just stumbling and stumbling instead of falling, like, just, you know, we were stumbling, like, blindly.

[B]

I think discipleship is a, is a huge factor.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I think, you know. Yeah. Like, I, I, I've been discipling a particular young man who recently got married, and he was going through a lot of things in, in the sex department when, when he first got married. Yeah. In the, in the, in the intimacy.

[C]

To, you know, it is a department.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Y' all know what I mean? And, but here he starts to express things, you know, about, like, his wife, that I was, I can't talk to your wife. I'm discipling you. And Jackie was like, let's invite them out. You know what I'm saying? Because she understood that she needed help too. Right? Right. Yeah. But we, we haven't did it yet. We're gonna do it soon. But I, I do think that when, when, when a man and a woman gets married because the man's sex drive is different, it looks different sometimes, right?

[D]

Sometimes, yeah. A lot of times.

[B]

Well, a lot of the times. Right. I do think there's a temptation for a woman. I, I can see how it can be. And correct me if I'm wrong, women, it can be a temptation to weaponize or to use sex as a, as a, as a, as a tool to, like, get what you want or to punish him and yada, yada, yada. But what I've heard from other men in marriage, it makes them bitter, it makes them discontent, it makes them dissatisfied, it makes them run to porn. Right. And so I, I do think even the way I think that's a discipleship issue, because I think what that woman needs is to say, man, like, you're doing this because you, you, you, you being petty and you want to, you know, get back at him, but you don't even understand all the spiritual implications that's happening in your marriage and in your husband's heart.

[D]

Yes.

[B]

That will break your heart probably a year from now.

[D]

Absolutely.

[B]

And then you need a man in another, in a young man's life to say, man, you know what? You need to be patient, and you need to love your wife like Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, Right?

[D]

The. The. The. The.

[B]

The Lord is patient with your little raggedy butt. And just because your wife rejected you so. So many times. How many times you rejected the Lord? But. But. But he still drew you to himself, and he still is patient with you, right? And so I. I do. I. I think if couples don't have that. That discipleship factor in their. In their. In their marriage, it gets really hard really fast.

[A]

You know, y' all have a lot going on, okay? You have businesses, you got ministry, you got five kids, you got family, you got yourselves.

[B]

Y' all do real estate.

[A]

What. What?

[D]

Real estate owners.

[A]

What's been the process.

[D]

Amen.

[A]

Of maintaining intimacy? And by intimacy, I mean all of it. Communication, love, trust. I don't mean just sex. What has been the process of y' all learning how to maintain yalls relationship in light of all of the duties and responsibilities that you have?

[C]

I think. Cause we do a lot of it together. Like, we run the business together. We take care of the kids together.

[D]

I like that she says that. Just that being together, we don't follow traditional gender roles in the household. The way that people would create these stringent lines for them. Like, I wash dishes in the house. She does things for the boys and the girls. I do things in the household. Like, if it's time for me to do laundry, grocery shopping, all those things. There's nothing that I cannot and say that I do not do in the.

[C]

House except comb hair. You cannot do it in the comb hair.

[D]

I just can't. I did one time, and I did baby hair.

[B]

It was fire.

[A]

It's a lot of hair.

[C]

Yeah, it was ugly. Kids got a lot of hair, but go ahead. We do a lot.

[D]

Okay, so. So we both do it together. And I think that that form of relief, it helps us, number one, not be stressed out of our minds on any level. Even though things can become a lot. But it also gives us time to bond. Because for her, I realize for my wife, quality time is her love language. But quality activity is like that subcategory where when we're just working together, at the end of the day, I hear it. She'd be like, I had a great day today with you.

[A]

That's sweet.

[D]

And I'm just like, why? She was like, well, we did this together. I'm like, oh.

[B]

Oh, you.

[A]

Like, so not the time. It's the time. Plus, like, we're. We're Living.

[C]

We're doing something. Yeah. Like, if we clean up together, I'm like, so, how did you like today?

[D]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And I think that's. I think that's dope because. Because. Because I feel the same way. And I think that. I think a lot of times what could be a lot. A lot of the problems in marriage is when the wife kind of feels like the husband has their own thing and they're not involved. Right. I love the fact that if me and Jackie have a great podcast week and what the Lord really used us, and then, you know, we're clicking on so many different areas, and then we did an.

[D]

Like.

[B]

Like, I feel. I feel productive with. With her, and I also enjoy her time in our company.

[A]

Oh, yeah, I do.

[D]

That's important, though.

[B]

Yeah, it's very important.

[A]

Www Yeah.

[B]

I think it's really important to work well with your spouse. And I hated the fact that during the pandemic, they were saying that people were getting divorced because they had to be with their safe house.

[C]

I talked to this guy on the floor phone so much. Like, we would leave the house and.

[A]

Then be talking all the time.

[C]

And then as soon as I get in the car, I call, no, I'll be with him.

[B]

I be like, you just left the crib.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

And then when we tour together last year, he would go in the green room, and I would know he f to sit down and call you.

[A]

And he has a face. It's like a cake face.

[D]

Do I?

[A]

Yeah, I got a cake face. It's like a.

[B]

Like, you so cute. Cute.

[A]

It's a weird to talk to k. Talk to Kion.

[B]

I'm like, this dude is in love.

[C]

I think we should stop. Like, we're getting too old for this.

[D]

That is wild.

[C]

Good.

[B]

It's good with all. With all the divorces.

[D]

I don't talk. I don't like talking on the phone.

[A]

Correct.

[D]

I actually don't like picking up the phone at all.

[C]

Horrible phone etiquette.

[D]

She's the only person I be like, my phone be ringing. I'd be like, she answers my phone calls because I don't like talking on the phone.

[B]

Well, I don't think we're telling couples to go out there and just start working with one another. But I do think that you should practice intimacy and, like, close relational things with your wife and your husband.

[A]

Yeah. Find ways to integrate your life so where it's not just because it's so. It's so. We've had to wrestle through this. I think it's Easy to just become business partners and room.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And so how can you integrate your life in such a way where you maintain the fact that we are also lovers and friends and business partners and ministry partners? Like. Yeah, because. Yeah. And I think it's easier said than done. I think it's easier for us because we actually have so many things together. So I don't know what that looks like for people who work at a bank and then the husband is a teacher, but I think it's possible.

[B]

Yeah, for sure.

[C]

I remember when I worked for the school district, and he had just started touring, and we literally was of, like, just living our own lives. I didn't. I used to say to him when he would come home, like, how was your vacation? Because I was being funny, because I'm like, I'm at home with these three kids. You got booked to go all the way across town and do your little poetry. That's what he used to call do a little poetry on the stage. And I'm still home. So every time I was your vacation. But I think God has just made it. Where finally, when I stopped working, I got to see, like, oh, wow, you really do be working. And. And I have more sympathy for him. And when he goes out and now that he bringing me on and I'm like, okay, God, how do you want me to do this? I see how we are able to work together and him encourage me, and I'm encouraging him. It's all for God. So that makes it a plus.

[D]

And I think surrounding the hard things with the fun things helps. And for not to go back to sex. But I would say having sex, then going into a day of hard work and doing serious business, it just gives me fuel to do that. And the promise of sex, it fuels me to be able to continue engage. Like, hey, look, look, we working. But tomorrow night is going down. It's like, I'm about to be working with a different level.

[B]

Tomorrow night, we working.

[C]

He do be saying that, though. No, no, seriously, we gonna work hard.

[D]

On the other side, I listen to.

[B]

The podcast, be like, these men always bringing it back to how did we get back here? But no, it does. I think sex really does help men work better.

[C]

Yeah, he telling me, but I need to see a study. Look at Jackie face. And on the other side of that.

[D]

Though, no, look at Jackie Faye.

[A]

No, it does.

[B]

Does like when I. Like when I. I'm.

[A]

I'mma be honest. I have a confession. I am so tempted to stop bringing Preston to my speaking engagements.

[D]

He always brings sex into because I have a process.

[A]

I want to sleep. I want to pray. Anyway, he thinks that the ministry is a long date night.

[D]

Yes.

[A]

And it's like that's helping you. But I'm the one that has to preach. Like that doesn't help me that there's.

[D]

No way you're in a hotel when.

[B]

I haven't been with you with your speaking engagements in a minute.

[A]

When we went to Australia.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

We went to Germany.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

When we was in Philly.

[C]

You better calm it down.

[A]

You wanted to be. Oh, you want to go hang out? You want to go. I have to preach in the morning.

[C]

This is not a date, sir.

[B]

But we had good sex in Germany.

[D]

In Australia. What the heck, man?

[B]

And you killed it both nights.

[C]

Killed it.

[D]

And.

[B]

And I know that's the reason why.

[A]

It's because I got up at 5am and I in the bathroom to pray.

[B]

That was a part of it too.

[A]

It wasn't.

[D]

But I will say on the other side of blessed, you too. And I would say on the other side of it, the same way that we work better with our form of motivation, we need as men to find ways to say, hey, create those atmospheres before work and after work.

[B]

Balance.

[D]

Yeah. I mean to do things that she enjoys.

[B]

No, I agree. I agree.

[D]

My wife likes to organize. If I promise her we about to organize that garage, she like.

[C]

No. I tell him you just messed up. He just lying. Say it again though.

[D]

We going to organize the garage. I'm not saying it for real. See what I'm saying? You see how excited she is?

[A]

I'm happy.

[C]

Look at it. Organizing is really. It just makes it all plain. You don't like a sloppy body, do you?

[A]

See, that's a word. What y' all got coming up? Y' all got the we need to talk podcast. All the things. Let us know.

[B]

Yeah, they're starting the podcast.

[D]

Oh, well, yeah, we finally started our podcast last month and well in February because we don't know when y' all gonna listen to this in February and you know, everything's going well and we're just going back to doing what we've been doing since.

[C]

Since before we got married when. When we were in. We were always doing we need to talks. When we were at his parents church, they just weren't called we need to talk. We was always putting on something for singles married couples, even though we weren't married. So it's just very refreshing that God has finally brought us into this space where we really feel like we could reach a generation with all the tools that we have now weren't given in the past.

[D]

Yeah. So we have all types of activities, conversations, and ways that we're bringing couples together, bringing married people together. We really want to see restoration and reconciliation for this generation of singles and married people. We have an event coming up April 27th in Atlanta. It's called we need to Love. So our goal is there's a lot of this gender war bickering going back and forth between, you know, men and women, and we're just creating this wall of hostility. That event and everything that we do from this point on is really to tear down wall that I believe the enemy is adding bricks to. So it's along. Me and Preston did a tour last year called we need to Talk, and that was just getting people in the same room having conversations. And this is the same thing, but instead we're adding action to it. So not just having the conversations, but also walking away with actual steps of action to rebuild and restore the relationships.

[A]

We will link all the information in the show notes. Thanks for joining us.

[C]

My first one. Cheers.

[B]

You're a professional now.

[D]

Yeah. This was nice.

[B]

We love y'. All.

[D]

Love you, too.

[A]

Peace with the Paris is produced by the Paris, with support from Amanda reed and Channing McBride. Video recording and audio production by Kim Powell, Abishai Perez and Xavier Fairley. Edited by the team at Tread Lively, artwork by Hop and music by Swoop. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.