← With The Perrys
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. How art thou?
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B
What's good with y'? All?
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A
What's good with y'? All? How are you, shiny beard?
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B
I'm doing good.
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A
That's good.
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B
How are you, shiny locks?
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A
They're a bit matte.
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B
Yeah.
- [00:19]
A
But anyway, what was your favorite thing this week? Like, what? Did something happen to you this week that you were like, huh? I really enjoyed that.
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B
Huh?
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A
Nothing. Oh. Anything else?
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B
I mean, that's it. That's all I can think of.
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A
Wow. You didn't. Nothing else? Like, no time with God? No.
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B
No fun with your children, but that's. That's consistent. I love my time with the Lord.
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A
Okay.
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B
No, no, no, no. Autumn came to me.
- [00:53]
A
Okay, There we go.
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B
Now I thought about it.
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A
Yeah. Now we can talk.
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B
Go ahead, Autumn. She was just, like, really open about her emotions and her feelings.
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A
You didn't tell me this.
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B
Yeah, go ahead. She came to me and she was just like, I love you, daddy. And I was like, I love you too, Autumn. Why you say that? I don't know. I just love you.
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A
And I'm like, what was this?
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B
This is the other day. I was sitting on the couch watching old basketball games, and she just came. And then she was just really talkative. And, you know, one thing I'm learning about Autumn and the reason why this is a big deal, because Autumn is a very sweet kid, but she's just as expressive.
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A
No. Yeah.
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B
As our other children. And one thing I'm learning about Autumn is she just loves to come and talk to me when her. When she doesn't have to compete with her siblings.
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A
Oh, that's true.
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B
Like, if. If Eden is not around, if she ever sees me by myself, she takes the opportunity to come and talk to me. And so I was like, oh, I noticed that. And so now I'm like, okay, I gotta make sure I get her by herself.
- [01:59]
A
Ah, that's smart. And yeah, that's thoughtful.
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B
But, you know, because I know she loves me, but she just ain't gonna always say it. Like Sage and Eden.
- [02:07]
A
Yeah.
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B
And so the fact that, you know, she came and sat on my lap and just told me how much she loved me.
- [02:13]
A
That's sweet.
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B
It's a very sweet moment.
- [02:15]
A
I don't know if I had a favorite moment this week. Yeah.
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B
Oh, yeah. I hit my pop up shop yesterday, too.
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A
Oh, we're back to you. Go ahead.
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B
Yeah, yeah. It's all about me right now.
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A
Yeah.
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B
At my pop up shop yesterday. And that was good.
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A
What were you selling?
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B
My merchandise.
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A
People may not know.
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B
So I have a clothing line Called Boat Apparel. You know, where I make clothes that I attempt to be fashionable, but at the same time start conversations with people in the streets.
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A
Is there a website?
- [02:45]
B
Yes. Boat apparelshot.com shop or shot shop.
- [02:49]
A
Okay, there we go. Praise God.
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B
What was your favorite thing this week?
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A
Me. Yeah.
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B
Yeah, yeah. Right, right.
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A
I don't think I had one.
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B
Nothing. Nothing you could think about?
- [02:57]
A
I really can't think of nothing. But part of it is I could have had it, but I'm so sleepy. I don't remember. I'm really tired right now, and so I don't know. You know what's going to be my favorite thing, though?
- [03:09]
B
Sleep.
- [03:10]
A
When we clean our room, that is going to bring me so much joy. Because right now, it's. It's giving chaos, it's giving confusion.
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B
Yeah.
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A
You know, it's giving Genesis one. Like, before, he had, like, made everything, like, orderly. Like. And I can't sleep well, and I can't think, and I just. I don't even want to be in there because of the way.
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B
I'm gonna clean the room for you.
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A
No, you don't have to clean. We can do it together. But our closet. Oh, my gosh.
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B
Yeah, we. We need another one of those.
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A
World War II.
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B
Yes. Yeah.
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A
We need Vietnam.
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B
We need another one.
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A
The first war.
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B
Right. Everybody died.
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A
Okay, what are we talking about?
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B
What are we talking about?
- [03:54]
A
We're talking about. So we. We thought that it could be co. If we revisited some of the discussions that we had the first season. Because the first season, we were kind of winging it. You know what I'm saying? We were in our closet. We were on a yeti mic. I was like.
- [04:10]
B
I liked it, though.
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A
We were sitting on the floor. No, it was cool.
- [04:13]
B
It was.
- [04:13]
A
The closet was a great sound buffer, you know what I'm saying? But we also were. This is almost five years ago, and so we've learned more about many of the subjects that we talked about. And so we wanted to revisit a conversation that many people said they were blessed by, which is how to argue. Well, yeah. Okay.
- [04:34]
B
And I don't. I don't all the way remember the conversation that we had back back in the day.
- [04:38]
A
I remember talking about our personalities and our upbringing or our family of origin and how that plays a part in your communication style. So let's begin that way. What. What would you say if you were to think about how you were raised? You know, how you saw confrontation handled in your home or even in your, like, neighborhood? Like, how has that influenced the way you Engage in confrontation. Especially with me, huh?
- [05:06]
B
I mean, in my home, it was always quick tempered, you know, short fuse. And we didn't cut each other off because we loved one another. Our family was, was like, we all. We got always. But we were, we wasn't the most patient with one another at times. But outside people, the way I saw, you know, the outside and my family deal with people outside, it's like, you got one chance to disrespect me and it's over. Either we finna fight or I'm just not gonna deal with you no more. Like you not finna get no more energy from me. Got it? And so I think that's the way I kinda grew up seeing people operate and function.
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A
When you had issues or confrontations with people before Christ, how did you handle confrontation?
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B
Oh, man. Before Christ?
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A
Yes.
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B
No.
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A
Give you buck.
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B
We was fighting, we was throwing hands.
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A
So you didn't want to reconcile ever? No. Reconciliation? No.
- [06:17]
B
I had homeboys that I was cool with, that I loved and I felt connected to in some ways. And when we get into it, there were like reconciliation moments, but it looked way different in, In Christ.
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A
Okay.
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B
You know, I'm saying it was like, why are you acting like a. Why you acting like a. Because you, you said this. He's like, all right, my bad. It's like, you know, those type of reconciliations, you know what I'm saying?
- [06:44]
A
Okay.
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B
But not like real reconciliation moments. Like, I didn't even understand that concept. It was kind of like you, you grew up with who you grew up with, and some relationships was worth fighting for more than others.
- [06:55]
A
So what makes this very interesting to me then is if your family origin and even, you know, your friendship context, if confrontation was always handled impatiently or violently, then how has. Like, in what ways does that still show up in our relationship? Because you, you're not a violent man towards me. Right. But that, that doesn't mean that there isn't some type of underlying anger that might want to pop out when issues come up.
- [07:26]
B
Yeah, the flesh is always. And that's a really good question, and I would want you to kind of answer that from your perspective as well. But I think for me, patience has always been the thing that I feel like the Lord has tried to groom me in even now, you know, And I feel like patience for me is a lifelong sanctifying thing, that the process that the Lord is taking me through.
- [07:52]
A
What is difficult about patience for you?
- [07:56]
B
It's, it's, it's hard to be a leader one and to have a Vision of what you feel like you and your family should do and not feel like everybody is always cooperating or every. Not even cooperating, but seeing the vision. Right. It's like, it's like, man, like, it's a lot of dying to self. Because a lot of times the intention and the. And the heart is pure and what I want to see accomplish. But that's sometimes like, the frustration and the. And the. And the irritation can grow when I don't want to give people the same amount of patience that I feel like the Lord gives me.
- [08:37]
A
Do you feel like when you were growing up, people weren't patient with you?
- [08:42]
B
It's a therapy session.
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A
I'm so intrigued.
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B
Yeah, yeah. Like, of course. Like, I didn't. I realized when I became a Christian, and this is no shade to my family, but I realized that I really didn't even know what patience was. You know, I knew what tolerance was.
- [09:03]
A
I knew.
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B
I knew that I was tolerated to a certain extent, and I felt that. What's crazy, I think that when you are not. When you don't have, like, patience displayed to you on an everyday basis, sometimes tolerance seems like the best form of love. And so for me, people being tolerant of me was like, man, you love me. But I didn't even know it was a deeper level of love. And that was like Christ, like, patience. And so it wasn't until I became a Christian where I saw the difference, you know, And I saw like, no, Christ, he just doesn't tolerate me. He's patient with me. And so even in my marriage, I had to learn that early on. I had to learn that, like, no, I don't want to tolerate my wife. I don't want to tolerate my children. I don't even want to tolerate the people in my local community. I want to love them well, and I want to be patient with them. And so when we have disagreements or arguments, it's kind of like, how can I doubt myself in a way that would display Christlike love and patience?
- [10:12]
A
I asked those questions because I think it's wise for us to understand that the way we were reared, and I think we know this as Christians by now, but the way we were reared and the things we observed in our homes, we often rehearse.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And not even on purpose.
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B
What were some things you rehearsed that you saw modeled?
- [10:37]
A
Yeah. So confrontation in my house was not a thing.
- [10:41]
B
Yeah.
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A
And so if. If my mama knows this, because I asked her, like, why you don't confront stuff, but, like, if she had an issue with anything. She wouldn't say it, but you would feel it.
- [10:53]
B
Yeah.
- [10:54]
A
You would see it. Like, you would know that she's kind of shut down emotionally, that she's not at. Like, she's not participating with me in the same way that she was before. And so I think. Or if she had issues, the friends would just disappear. Like, you just wouldn't see them around. And so I think how I learned to confront issues is not to confront issues. And so when. When me and you get together, that creates a storm because you're somebody that is impatient, and therefore you want to confront an issue immediately. And I'm someone who doesn't even have the tools or the resources or the desire to confront an issue. And so that just kind of creates.
- [11:32]
B
A class because we grew up in two different homes. I mean, we grew up in a home where if you had an issue, you coming in somebody room, like, I got immediately. You know what I'm saying? And so, like, even the way we function and. Yeah, I think you're right. Even the way we function in marriage. In marriage is a reflection of how we were raised in our upbringing, for sure. You know, for me, it was just really tough trying to deal with conflict with you in the beginning, because I felt like the way you process or the way you learned how to process your emotions or whatever was hindering our growth.
- [12:10]
A
Interesting. Yeah.
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B
Right?
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A
Yeah.
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B
Because I felt like, man, like, if. If we have conflict there, like, how. How is it going to be resolved if you don't want to touch it? Right, right. And vice versa. Yeah. But at the same time, like, I also had to learn from you. Right. I didn't learn that everything is not worth speaking at that moment.
- [12:31]
A
Yes.
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B
And so it's a balance, because sometimes.
- [12:34]
A
In wanting to address a conflict, if you want to address a conflict prematurely, it creates more conflict.
- [12:40]
B
Yes.
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A
And so there's a sense in which patience says that it would be wiser for us both to process and think through what we feel so that even when we come together, we're not speaking purely out of emotion and purely out of irritation or purely out of anger. But we've kind of sifted it with Jesus in the word or with people, so that when we come together, it's actually more healthy and more fruitful. Because I've had to tell you, I cannot talk about this right now because it will not be good.
- [13:09]
B
Yeah.
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A
I know myself, so if you try to push me out of that before, I fully, not even fully, at least partially worked it through in my brain. You're not gonna get a good Jackie.
- [13:19]
B
Yeah, for sure, for sure. And I think, for me, speaking of Jesus, I think, yeah, we like him. Yeah. Love him, I think.
- [13:26]
A
Serve him, Honor him, Glorify him.
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B
Okay, I'm gonna wait till you get home.
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A
Sacrifice to him.
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B
Right?
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A
He is Lord, right? Of heaven and earth.
- [13:34]
B
Did you say adore?
- [13:35]
A
Adore him.
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B
Okay.
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A
Because he is the image of the invisible God.
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B
All right?
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A
The firstborn. So thinking all creation.
- [13:41]
B
Right, Right. That's what the words say. Be quiet, please. Speaking of Jesus, this isn't necessarily related to, like, marriage conflict, but when. When. When Jesus was dealing with. With the Pharisees and religious leaders of his time, you always saw him saying to his disciples, it's not time for this. This is not the time for the Son of Man to be captured. And you saw a lot of times, one time, the Pharisees tried to snatch him up, and it said, Jesus, like, fled away. I don't even know what that all looked like. I don't know if he disappeared. I don't know if he, like, shimmied away. You know what I'm saying? But he, like, avoided conflict because he knew what ultimately had to happen. Right. But he knew, like, at this moment, this is not time for the conflict. Right. It has to. It has to be done in my divine wisdom.
- [14:34]
A
That's good.
- [14:35]
B
And I think a lot of times in conflict and marriage, you have the one who kind of is like me, who feels like, no, we have to settle this right now. And it's like, okay, you're not afraid of confronting things head on, but are you using God's wisdom, His divine wisdom? And when you do it, because you could do something prematurely, and you won't even get to the destination that you wanted to get to because you did it prematurely.
- [15:02]
A
And I think timing also reveals why you want to talk.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Right. So what I mean is you often wanted to have a conversation or do want to have a conversation quick to. To. To, like, resolve the tension in your own heart.
- [15:22]
B
Yeah, to get something off my chest.
- [15:23]
A
It's actually not about unity.
- [15:25]
B
Yeah.
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A
It's not actually about peace. It's that you feel disoriented and you want to. You don't want the chaos. You know what I'm saying?
- [15:32]
B
Well, wait, let me. Let me. Let me take it a step further. But at times, I was convinced that it was about unity, and I was convinced that it was about peace because I was always taking my peace for our peace.
- [15:48]
A
What do you mean?
- [15:49]
B
Like, what. What I felt like was peace. I felt like If I'm peaceful, we're peaceful.
- [15:55]
A
Yeah.
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B
If I feel like I'm good, we're good.
- [15:57]
A
That's actually arrogant.
- [15:58]
B
Yeah.
- [15:59]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [16:00]
B
I was arrogant.
- [16:01]
A
No, I'm not. That's not. I'm just saying.
- [16:03]
B
Yeah, no, no, no, you're right, because.
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A
We'Re two different people.
- [16:05]
B
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And so, like, I felt, like, okay, if I feel this way, you know, like, maybe if. If. If. If I can get it off my chest and she can see where I'm coming from, we can be good.
- [16:15]
A
Yeah.
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B
And what I needed to do is, like, kind of forget about me in some. In some ways and come to you and say, you know, what? How are you? Or when do you want to talk? Or how do you want to process? But. Yeah.
- [16:34]
A
But in the same way, I think me shutting down, because I even had to learn that even shutting down can be a form of vengeance.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And people don't think of it that way. They think vengeance is like, I'm gonna fight you, or I'm gonna put some sugar in your tank, or I'm gonna be verbally mean. But withholding yourself from somebody that you're called to love is also a. I'm not gonna curse you out, but I'm not gonna talk to you at all. You get what I'm saying? So I'm withholding myself. That's a form of punishment.
- [17:08]
B
Yeah. That's good.
- [17:09]
A
And so I think I had to realize that, one, that's not like Jesus, but two, that even though I need you to give me space to process, I also need to be willing to step out outside of myself to serve you and reconcile with you, too. You know what I'm saying? So it takes a level of humility to say, like, jackie, talk. Talk it out. But I think you also being a secure person, because people who are afraid of conflict, what they're afraid of is also abandonment and rejection. And so I'm less likely to want to work through conflict if I don't believe that after we do it, you'll stay.
- [17:49]
B
Yeah.
- [17:49]
A
That you'll still love me, that you'll still care for me, that you'll still be there. And so I think the more secure you've become, the more willing I am to engage in very hard conversations.
- [17:59]
B
Yeah. Because I think that's. I think that's the balance, and that's the wrestle. I feel like a lot of times the husband has, and sometimes the shoe might be on the other foot. The wife might be more. A little more confrontational than the husband, but I feel like as husbands, it's our job to lead. But I feel like when I started to learn that it wasn't necessarily about us working through things that I felt like we had to work through at that moment and at that time, but making our home an environment that where you feel safe and allowed you to come out on your own. I felt like our communication and our conflict and how we resolved our conflict became better.
- [18:44]
A
Oh, huge.
- [18:45]
B
Because I think that's just the balance of one, the leader of the home. It's like, man, how can I create a space to allow this person to grow so they can wanna, like, work through conflict with me in a way that feels safe and secure? And I didn't. And I didn't get that at first. I felt like, yo, if we got a problem, just let's just talk about it.
- [19:06]
A
Practically speaking, right? So I don't think all com. I don't think all confrontation or conflict in marriage is rooted in some kind of sin or infraction. Like some confrontation might simply be, hey, you know, can you pick your socks up? I don't know, like, I'm confronting you about some of the things you do in our home that is bothering me. It may not necessarily be sinful, but it's still irritating me. You get what I'm saying? But I think there are also a lot of things that are a lot of confrontation in marriage that does have some type of thing that, like, makes you mad and makes you angry. So practically speaking, if you are mad at me, or if you're mad at a friend, or if you're mad at somebody at church, how do you work through your anger so that when you do have the conversation, when you do do the confrontation, you do it in a way that honors God. Like, practically speaking, what is that process?
- [20:03]
B
Yeah, I think it's. I think it's all a matter of examining your own heart. I'm a big believer that nobody makes you do anything. They just bring what's in you all out. Right. And so if I'm an impatient person, the right person will bring that impatience out. If I'm an angry person, I don't care how godly you trying to look in church or in Wednesday night Bible study, if you run into the wrong person, it's like, okay, they're gonna expose what's in you. And I even learned that in street evangelism. It's like, if I don't get before the Lord and give things to him, it's about giving things to him. It's like, Lord I'm an angry person. You die for this anger. Can you please take it before I deal with this individual? So it's nothing for them to bring up out of me except patience, more kindness, more love, more gentleness. Right. And so I think that's the main thing. I feel like when me and you have conflict and I feel myself getting irritated, it's like, did you pray this morning? Did you give that to the Lord? Right. Have you meditated on the goodness of God? And so for me, I think the way you deal with conflict is like, you have to give those things to the Lord. That makes conflict difficult before you deal with another image bearer. Because if you don't, it's going to be. This is going to be chaos.
- [21:26]
A
But I would add to that because I asked that question, because the Lord says, do not let the sun go down on your anger. I don't think he's necessarily referring to a specific time. Like, don't. It's 5:30.
- [21:41]
B
You better make sure you're not.
- [21:42]
A
But it's more so, like, do not allow yourself to be angry for prolonged periods of time. But with that said, I think if we give our anger to the Lord and if we process, that doesn't mean that you withhold your emotion in the confrontation. What I mean is some people could think, okay, I have to be happy or joyful or without any remnants of anger to engage in the confrontation, but I actually don't think that's true because I think people need to see that they hurt you.
- [22:15]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [22:16]
A
Not manipulation, but your humanity, like. Like, it does something to me. When we would have issues and you were, like, disrespected me. For me to see. Not. Not you to, like, sin against me, but for me to see that I hurt you. Affected me. You get what I'm saying?
- [22:31]
B
Because we recorded a podcast recently where we talked about how you offended me in Trinidad. And I brought up. I brought up how I compared you with your father. Right, right. And in that conflict, what I needed to do was I needed to communicate to you how your actions are affecting me without sinning against you. Yes, because it's one way. It's one thing to be angry, but s. Be angry, but sin not. Because it's one way to express how you feel, and it's another way to express how you feel while at the same time trying to sin against somebody else to soften how you feel. It's like you're not giving those emotions to the Lord. You're taking those emotions in your own hands and you're trying to sin against somebody to get your little anger out. And it's just like, no, you should have got that anger out. You should have got that vengeance. You should have given that to the Lord and went with this person was just, you know, just saying, I'm hurt, I feel some type of way and I want to love you through it. Can we talk about it? And so I think, you know, that's the difference.
- [23:34]
A
That's helpful.
- [23:35]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [23:36]
A
Now what would you say? How do I say this? I'm a woman.
- [23:44]
B
Right. Very beautiful woman.
- [23:46]
A
You're a man.
- [23:47]
B
Right. Very swaggy man. Man.
- [23:49]
A
Okay. The b. The Bible, Ephesians 5 says, Husbands, love your wives like Christ loved the church.
- [23:59]
B
That's what the words say.
- [24:01]
A
Paul says, wives, submit to your husbands like the church submits to Christ later on in, in the thing. He says, wives, have respect for your husband. It speak to the dynamic of confronting, like arguing well in marriage as a husband, because there's a particular call or role that you play within our marriage that I think should influence or inform the way that you do conflict with me.
- [24:27]
B
Yeah.
- [24:27]
A
Does that make sense?
- [24:28]
B
It does, it does.
- [24:30]
A
For example, for example, I've seen, observed, been a part of friend groups where the husband, because he takes on his role as a leader, he takes it so seriously that he's actually extremely self righteous, critical, overbearing and like literally spiritually abusive. Right. And so that's one way that he's handling conflict is to be mean and to be unhealthy and to be narcissistic and to be damaging. Like, that's not what we supposed to do. Right. But you also have women who they, the way they handle it, they're manipulating, sometimes they're manipulative because they don't want to actually say something. So they just want to kind of like, like I don't want to say, hey, you hurt me. And so they want to be super hyper passive aggressive, as if that's going to work. Or they nag and become, I'm gonna.
- [25:17]
B
Give him his food cold every night. It ain't gonna be all the way hot.
- [25:22]
A
Yeah.
- [25:22]
B
He gonna have to warm it up himself.
- [25:24]
A
Yeah. And so on both ends, you have a wife, you have. Wow. No, that's not it.
- [25:30]
B
I'm just saying don't be coming to bring me co.
- [25:33]
A
So you have wives that aren't respecting their husbands.
- [25:37]
B
Yeah.
- [25:37]
A
And you have husbands that aren't loving their wives. How do you do that? Well, for me, it's a big question.
- [25:44]
B
It is a big question. I'm gonna speak from the male's perspective, because you're a man. I'm a man. Right. And I think when it comes to conflict and when it comes to tension in a marriage, as a leader, when we look at Ephesians 5, I cannot escape the fact that when it says, husbands, love your wives, like Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, Christ did that before, the church loved him back, and Christ did that after the church rejected him over and over again. And so there is something to be said about a husband being sacrificial in that way of consistently dying to himself, even when there is rejection there, even when there is a lack of submissiveness there, even when there is just. Yes. Selfishness there. And I believe that a woman's call is to respond to that love and to be convicted by the love and to like, because that's what convicts us. Like, the church is a hot mess. But we have those who are in the church who have corrected their. Their, Their. Their bad behavior or their, Their lack of submissiveness to Christ because we realize one day, man, Jesus loves me despite.
- [27:07]
A
All I've done this I know right for the Bible.
- [27:10]
B
And so I think, I think, and this is the reason why I tell women, I think I said this before on the podcast, that, like, women who, who don't want to submit, it's like, man, like Christ, like love and leadership is. Is just as vulnerable as submission. And so we don't look at it that way. We, like, you're the leader. You tell me what to do, I gotta submit to it. It's like, no, it's like I actually have to die for.
- [27:33]
A
Yeah. Which tells me that sometimes because I can. I'm not a man, but I am a leader. Right? And I think in my leadership with the different teams that I work with, what I realize is what is easy is domineering. That's how I take on conflict, is I say, don't do that, do this.
- [27:53]
B
Why?
- [27:54]
A
Because I said so. I think humble leadership, the way you examine conflict is you say, okay, what role have I played in this conflict existing? Right. Because I've had times where I see that, you know, somebody I'm leading is doing X, Y and Z, but I have to examine and say, how have I have I let them well or not? And that's why they doing X, Y and Z. I'm looking at my own heart first. And so that allows me to actually engage with them not from a place of preeminence or power, but really from a Place of just humility and love and saying, you know, I'm sorry that I did not communicate this clearly. I'm sorry that I gave you this example. I'm sorry that I did not pray for you or ask you how you were doing. You know what I'm saying?
- [28:39]
B
Like, also, also, you know, and one thing I learned in leadership with us and just, you know, people that I lead in life is, am I displaying what I want to see? Hello, Am I displaying what I want to see? Like, I can't make somebody's selfishness make me be prideful. Like, if. If. If. If I want. If I want humility, and I'm making your lack of humility make me a domineering person. It's like, how are they ever gonna understand humility if the person who's leading them don't model it? You know? And so that's what I had to learn, because I think a lot of times in conflict, we want to be the one with the upper hand. We want to be the one who is in control. And so when someone you know is not showing humility towards us or rebelling against us or not submitting to us, it says, you know what? I don't have control. Let me try to be more domineering to get it. And that's just not how you get it. You get it by displaying what you want to see. And so, like, if you want humility, display humility. If you want more love, display more love.
- [29:47]
A
That's good.
- [29:48]
B
And that's what Jesus did.
- [29:49]
A
I think for the woman who engages in. Or the wife that engages in conflict in a way that is. Is disrespectful, I think we have to ask ourselves really hard questions about what is it about my husband that I don't respect, that I don't value? Right.
- [30:10]
B
Let me ask you a question, though. Is it always about the husband?
- [30:14]
A
I'm getting there. Okay, so. So. Cause it. It could be that he has moved in a certain way that you haven't acknowledged and that you haven't confronted. And so, for example, it could be that the husband, you know, you feel like he's lazy. And because he's lazy, you haven't confronted the laziness. And so it's coming out all the time. And like you being mad about the dishes or you being mad about him coming home late or you be. But you're really not mad at that. You're mad at his lack of diligence. And so I think sometimes you have to ask yourself really hard questions about what Is it that I don't appreciate, I don't respect? Let me deal with that. Let me take that before the Lord. Let me ask God to be a bomb, to be a healer, and then let me have an honest conversation with my husband and say, hey, these behaviors are affecting my respect. And I want to respect you, I want to value you, but that is making it hard for me. Right. And then y' all could talk and figure it out. I think a lot other times it's not nothing a man did. It's just your own heart.
- [31:20]
B
Yeah.
- [31:20]
A
You know, your own heart, like, power feels good. Disrespect is natural. Love is supernatural. And so it takes love and a softened, humble heart to be able to communicate a truth, a way that lands and is received well, you know, and so, like, I think, I think at the end of the day, we have to understand that God's command to love our neighbors as better than ourselves also applies to our spouses.
- [31:44]
B
Yeah.
- [31:44]
A
Period. Including our communication facts.
- [31:55]
B
Answer, answer, answer this question because I've, I've, I, I, I've known a lot of men, and I know a lot of men who avoid conflict with their spouses because they just, they just don't want to deal with the sharp words from their wife. Yeah. And women have this ability to just always throw little daggers out there, just disrespectful things, little jabs that's going to set a man off in a way.
- [32:24]
A
Interesting.
- [32:27]
B
Explain to us what is the process of a woman who. Sometimes it's hard for them to deal with their significant other without just being really loose at the mouth and being mean. And being mean.
- [32:42]
A
Being mean.
- [32:43]
B
Yeah.
- [32:43]
A
One, I think some of us were raised under women that were like that. We saw our mothers be disrespectful.
- [32:51]
B
Discipleship.
- [32:51]
A
We saw our mothers be undermining to men. And that when we saw our mothers live that way, it usually came because they suffered at the hands of men. They were abused emotionally, verbally, spiritually, physically. And so of course, they don't have any respect. You know what I'm saying? And so sometimes the language is a, Sometimes the language is a signpost that you not finna disrespect. You're not finna disrespect me. I'm not a weak woman. It's a very insecure way to signal power. But I think, think that's one factor. I think another factor is we just gotta be. It takes humility. I, I keep saying humility. It takes humility to say, you know what? When you did X, Y, and Z. It hurt my feelings. You know what I'm saying that. That. That hurts to say. So instead of just saying that, I'm gonna just be mean to you, like. And. And I just. I don't. I don't. I need women to know that doesn't work. Like, tearing down a man's masculinity will never make your marriage better.
- [33:55]
B
Yeah.
- [33:56]
A
Ever. I can be very sharp with my words.
- [34:00]
B
Really not know that I thought she was dull. Thought your words was dull.
- [34:08]
A
I could be sharp. I can be quick. Right. Just because I am a communicator. And so I think women who are communicators actually have to be even more mindful of how they use their words.
- [34:19]
B
Blame it on the communication.
- [34:21]
A
It's a part.
- [34:22]
B
How convenient.
- [34:23]
A
Anyway, but I think what has helped me is you constantly communicating. Not how the way I navigate conversations with you just makes you angry, but how it hurts you. Because for a good season of our relationship, probably when we were dating, we had a lot of clashes where you would be like, jackie, that's disrespectful. You cannot say that to me. You cannot do me like that. Da, da, da, da, da. And some of it was. I didn't know it was disrespectful. Why? Because I've been raised around it. That's all I saw. You know what I'm saying was, like, women talking to men, however they felt like talking to them. And so it was you being patient with me, but also being vulnerable with me and saying, when you say this in front of this person in this way, this is how it makes me feel. So you had to actually teach me how to respect you. But you didn't do it in a way that also was disrespectful. You did it in a way that was just like, hey, this. This isn't gonna fly in our relationship. And so that was just really helpful for me.
- [35:29]
B
Yeah. Yeah. And I had to grow on that. Cause I wasn't like that, like you said.
- [35:34]
A
No. You got kind of spicy.
- [35:37]
B
Yeah, not spicy. I get angry. You know what I'm saying? Like, yeah, just be real. But one thing that I had to grow in is vulnerability. Cause I think it's tough for a man to want respect. Right. And he's not getting it, but at the same time, he doesn't know how to be vulnerable enough to communicate how he really feels to the person that loves him. Yeah, Right. And it's just like, you know what vulnerability for the man does is it helps people in your life. Love you better instead of you saying, man, I ain't messing with you no more. You know what I'm saying? And then just walking away and not dealing with it. And the whole time, your relationship is decaying because she doesn't realize the weight of how much she's affecting you. It doesn't even understand. She probably thinks it's just mere pride and not, you know, you're, like, wounding him, but because he doesn't want to be vulnerable and communicate to you how much you're wounding him. You know, she's just like, oh, he's just a prideful person. You know what I mean?
- [36:38]
A
Because I don't. I think we have this assessment, and it's the culture and it's men, it's everybody. We have this assessment of men that they are stronger than what they really are. And that's not to say you aren't strong, but it also isn't to say that you aren't tender. Right? It's like you are affected by words, especially the words of the person that you love. Like, I think I had to realize that my words land very hard on you in positive ways and in negative ways. And so I don't want to steward my language in a way that damages you more than it builds you up. Up, which is what scripture says. Like. Like your words have the power of life, and death is in the power of the tongue. That's not a supernatural power. It just means it has the power to shift and influence and change even people's, like, sense of self and identity.
- [37:33]
B
I also want to say that I. I think the woman. The wife should not. Shouldn't underestimate all those little jabs is. Is making your. Can be making your husband lose respect for you.
- [37:48]
A
Interesting.
- [37:50]
B
In a way that you probably don't even realize.
- [37:52]
A
What does that look like? A man losing respect for his wife.
- [37:55]
B
Because when a person doesn't feel safe and a person feels like you're not honoring them in the way that you should honor them, they can. They can start to see you as a. As. Like a. As an enemy, even though they love you, right? And they can start to see you as somebody who's gonna, like, you know, And I. And I get it. You're saying that sometimes women do that to make themselves feel safe. But it's like you don't understand. Like, you tearing me down is making me, like, retreat and not have good thoughts about my interaction with you, not have good thoughts about the way I don't see you as a safe space, but I see you as somebody who's gonna tear me down to protect themselves every single time, you know, and I think, you know, I've seen so many men lose respect for their wives in that way. And, and granted, I mean, I'm not talking about. Oh, I gotta be clear, I gotta clarify. I'm not talking about the trash husbands who. Out there, you know, abusing their wives. I'm talking about, you know, good men who, who probably, you know, marry a, A woman who had some bad experiences with a man in, in the past and, you know, they don't even realize, like, how, how, how affected their husbands are with, with their sharp tongues. It's like you've, you, you. You've wounded me so many times. I don't even know how to. I don't even know how to receive you anymore. I don't even know how to be myself. I'm, you know, like, like, like, for me, I'm, I'm. I'm. It's better off for me to be angry and to be guarded and to be like this cold person than to open myself up to you because I don't know when the next sharp, sharp word is gonna, Gonna come. Yeah. And so, yeah, you can paint yourself to be like a very, very unsafe space to a man and to a point where he doesn't trust you anymore. And so I think that, yeah, communication.
- [39:46]
A
Is just key because I remember, I don't know who told me, it might have been Melody, one of my mentors, or I might have been a sermon, but it was kind of this word that in marriage your spouse is not your enemy.
- [40:00]
B
Yeah.
- [40:01]
A
And that sounds like, yeah, of course we went to the altar and we exchanged rings and we have sex. Like, where's not? But. But we can function that way where the person that we are united with in one flesh, we treat like an enemy. And we have to do the work of, like, fighting against that lie. Because the truth is, if anybody is for me, it should be and is going to be you. You know what I'm saying? Now, with that said, I think. I think a really wise way to kind of turn the tide in our marriages, even when it comes to healthy confrontation and conflict, is confession, quick confession. Because again, I still am very imperfect in my speech towards you. That's just clear. But there are plenty of moments where I'll come back and say, I apologize for saying that the way I said it.
- [40:55]
B
Yeah, you've grown a lot.
- [40:57]
A
This is what I meant to say. Or I apologize for saying that in front of these people. I was Just being. I was irritated. So you know what I'm saying? I did that last week. And so I think confessing that stuff quickly actually allows there not to be any wedge put between y', all, like, intimacy and unity. You know what I'm saying?
- [41:17]
B
Yeah, yeah. No, for sure. Because I think what quick confession does is it immediately tears down the lies that the enemy can tell them. You know what I'm saying? Because I feel like we had to learn that. Right. And we're still learning that. Because what the enemy wants to do, the enemy wants to use your wife's words or your husband's words to automatically say they don't really care about you like that.
- [41:41]
A
Yeah.
- [41:42]
B
They don't really respect you like that. Or they respect another man more than you. Or they, you know. You know. And so, like, now you have the enemy's lies. But what quick confession does, it. It shows us. It's like, no, like, that was wrong, but they still love me. They still honor me. Yeah, they just had a moment, and they know the Lord, and they know the Lord.
- [41:59]
A
Yeah.
- [41:59]
B
Yeah. And we can. And we can bounce back from it. And so I think I'm always a fan of. Of quick confession because I just don't want to get the devil nothing to work with.
- [42:07]
A
Yeah, no, that's how helpful.
- [42:08]
B
Yeah.
- [42:09]
A
I want to say also that for people who are built like me, who don't like confrontation, like, I learned from you, that confront, like, all confrontation isn't bad.
- [42:23]
B
Yeah.
- [42:24]
A
Like, it's just not all negative, you know? Like, it. It really is a necessary function of a healthy relationship. Because you'll hear couples who are like, oh, yeah, we never argue. And it's like that.
- [42:34]
B
Actually, Cap. Stop the cap.
- [42:36]
A
No, they might not be arguing. I said this in the first time we recorded this. Like, if a couple is saying that, they don't argue, to me, that is not a signal of a healthy relationship. That's a signal that both of y' all are passive.
- [42:49]
B
Right.
- [42:49]
A
Because if you're a human being, there are going to be conflict.
- [42:53]
B
Cause one of y' all breath stink, and everybody smell it.
- [42:56]
A
That's a very strange example.
- [42:58]
B
Everybody smell it. But because y' all scared of conflict, y' all won't tell each other the truth. And y' all be having. Having each other out here like that.
- [43:06]
A
Sure.
- [43:06]
B
You know what I'm saying? Like, what I'm saying is, like, if. If. If you're. If you. If you never argue, if you never bring up your. Your. Your. Your spouse's issues, it's like, One that's not even realistic.
- [43:19]
A
Right.
- [43:19]
B
And that's not love.
- [43:20]
A
My shock and awe was primarily at the metaphor that you chose. The illustration was a bit strange.
- [43:26]
B
I know. I thought about, I thought about a friend that I, I knew I had to tell him his breath stink cause his wife was cut scared. That's.
- [43:33]
A
But go ahead.
- [43:34]
B
I'm sorry.
- [43:35]
A
No, go ahead.
- [43:36]
B
No, all I'm saying is like, I hate when, I hate when marriages or spouses act like they have no problems.
- [43:45]
A
Yeah.
- [43:46]
B
And I be seeing it on social media. It's like, why y' all trying to act like y' all perfect?
- [43:51]
A
Yeah.
- [43:52]
B
It's not even realistic.
- [43:53]
A
Because listen, it is one thing to not argue and it's another thing to say no. We've learned how to argue in a constructive way. Right, Right. So me and you, I call them healthy debates or healthy conversations. We have em, where we, we don't, we don't argue, we don't have these tit for tats. But we have constant conversations about, hey, I didn't like this, I didn't like that, or hey, I foresee this being an issue. Can we talk through this? Or I've been feeling this kind of way. Can we talk? Like it's like, like we. You also have to have precipitous conversations. Right. Like, say it again. Precipitous conversations.
- [44:30]
B
Say it real fast.
- [44:30]
A
No, like precipitous. Like I can. So for, I think, for example, who just says precipitous? Let's say I, I, I'm having an, an emotional week, Right?
- [44:45]
B
Yeah.
- [44:45]
A
And I feel very irritated because of something that happened with me and somebody else. I need to let you into that irritation quickly because it's going to come off on you. That's a precipitous conversation where I'm already saying I am feeling this kind of way and I don't want to keep this to myself because I know it's going to end up forcing some type of conflict between me and you on Tuesday and this Sunday. And so even having those kinds of conversations.
- [45:11]
B
Well, when you come in a room and you see I'm kind of just like a little frustrated, it's like, are you okay?
- [45:17]
A
Yeah.
- [45:18]
B
You want to talk about it?
- [45:19]
A
And giving you the space not to talk about it.
- [45:21]
B
Yeah.
- [45:21]
A
But so much of that comes with time. We've known each other now 15 years. I guarantee you by year 20, even the way we engage in conversation and conflict will be different naturally because we will know each other even more than we did before. So like early in our marriage we argued a lot out of ignorance. I was presuming and assuming this is what you meant or projecting. This is why he said it.
- [45:46]
B
Facts.
- [45:47]
A
When it's like, now I know, like, oh, no, he. He just constipated.
- [45:51]
B
What? Not constipated. Yeah. And we're still learning. And we're not experts. By no means.
- [45:57]
A
Absolutely not.
- [45:58]
B
But I think the main thing is, how can I grow with my spouse in a way that would always encourage us to come together in a healthy way to deal with difficult issues? Just like, how do we do that? And sometimes it's tough, sometimes it's. How can I, in the most gentle, most respectful way, bring up something that's problematic for the sake of peace.
- [46:27]
A
Yeah.
- [46:28]
B
Future peace.
- [46:28]
A
Even the Lord corrects us.
- [46:31]
B
Yeah.
- [46:32]
A
And disciplines us so that we can go in righteousness. It's not my job to discipline you. But what I am saying is that the hard things don't necessarily mean something bad is happening.
- [46:46]
B
Right.
- [46:46]
A
It means that the hard stuff, talking through it, dealing with it, walking through it, working with it, is what usually actually forms more intimacy. Conflict can create more intimacy if you do it well. I just want to read the scripture, James 4. It says, what causes quarrels and what causes fights among you? Is it not this, that your passions are at war within you. You desire and do not have, so you murder. You covet and cannot obtain, so you fight and quarrel. You do not have because you do not ask. You ask and you do not receive because you ask wrongly to spend it on your passion, passions, you adulterous people, do you not. Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? I read that because James is saying, hey, you quarreling and you fighting because of passions that are warring within you. You desire and you don't have. So what you do, you murder, you covenant, you can't get it. So what you do, you fight. And you doing all this because you haven't talked, you haven't asked, and so you don't have it. And so it's like if in your conversations, in your marriage, in your friendship and your. Whatever, talk, if you just had a conversation, a lot of issues will be resolved.
- [47:59]
B
Yeah. And it just cuts. Because a lot of our frustrations that we have with our spouse is deeply rooted in assumptions, Us assuming things that they feel and us going off of our. The lies the enemy has told us in our own head about our spouse. And so we. We're responding out of this deep, deep assumption because we haven't took the time to properly communicate to get a clear understanding. And so for me, it's just like, man, let me not respond to you by what I think you mean. Let me talk to you to get an understanding so we get. You know what I mean? And so I think communication is key.
- [48:40]
A
One more scripture, Colossians 3. Put on then, as God's chosen one, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness. When. When a woman is being disrespectful. When a woman is being mean, she's lacking kindness, humility, meekness. Meekness is strength under control. You know, we know you a strong woman. We know you a powerful woman. You ain't got to prove that. Even Jesus came and condescended and became flesh and became a servant. And so you don't have to flex power to be powerful. Right?
- [49:13]
B
Right.
- [49:14]
A
Verse 13. Bearing with one another. And if one has a complaint against another, forgive each other. As the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. And above all these, put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony. Scripture has given us so much context for how to argue.
- [49:34]
B
Well, yeah, that's good. And you. What you just said kind of reminded me of something I want to say earlier, is that, like, both man and woman, we have this. We have this weird way of trying to obtain power because I think the root of it is fear. I think the man is deeply, deeply afraid of being wounded in his Christ, like sacrificial love. I'm gonna put myself out there. You're gonna hurt me. The woman is deeply fearful of submitting to someone who will hurt her. Right. And so, like, sometimes the man can be overly domineering, not simply because he just wants to control somebody, to feel good. No, I want to control you.
- [50:14]
A
You.
- [50:14]
B
I want, like, in our conflict, I want to control you because I want to protect myself, the woman. I. I want to. I want to throw sharp jabs at you, you know, when we. When we have, you know, arguments. Because I want to protect myself. Right. And what we really doing is really just exposing how weak we really are.
- [50:32]
A
Which is good news. It's good news. This is why it's good news. It's. You are functioning out of an insecurity.
- [50:39]
B
Yeah, The.
- [50:40]
A
The primary insecurity we have is a lack of intimacy with God.
- [50:44]
B
Yeah.
- [50:45]
A
Right. And so if the Lord is our refuge, if the Lord is our strong tower, then that means if we go to him as our safe place, as our. As our security, then I don't have to find all these, like, fake forms of security because I'm secure in him already. And so if I. If I. If I'm secure in the Lord, that actually frees me to love you without fear. And that's really, really, really hard to do. But that's what God has called us to try. Try.
- [51:12]
B
That's good. That's good. Well, any last advice before we wrap it up? That you. You said it all.
- [51:18]
A
Yeah, I'm good.
- [51:20]
B
I'm good, too.
- [51:21]
A
All right. Bye. With the Perrys is produced by the Perrys with support from Amanda Reed and Channing B. McBride, editing by Xavier Fairley, video recording and audio production by Kim Powell, artwork by Hop and music by Swoop. If you like to support the Perrys, you can visit the link in the show notes. This is with the Perrys. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.