← With The Perrys
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. How are you?
- [00:08]
B
What's good with y'?
- [00:09]
A
All? What was that? You buried white.
- [00:12]
B
Now that's how I always sound.
- [00:14]
A
No, it had a different octave.
- [00:16]
B
I'll be sounding what's good with y'? All.
- [00:17]
A
No, it was what's good with y'? All. It was. It was.
- [00:20]
B
Man, why you like monitoring my voice, man?
- [00:23]
A
Okay, so I want to try something.
- [00:25]
B
This time it's gonna be random.
- [00:27]
A
I want to try something.
- [00:28]
B
What?
- [00:29]
A
So I want you to tell me that I'm pretty. No, let's try it.
- [00:34]
B
This is funny.
- [00:35]
A
Let's try it. Go ahead.
- [00:37]
B
You so fine.
- [00:39]
A
Oh, my God, I'm so grateful that you like my face. Thank you so much.
- [00:45]
B
You gotta get.
- [00:46]
A
I don't know what I would do if you didn't tell me I was pretty. So let me, like, grovel in it.
- [00:53]
B
You got to give people context to why you.
- [00:54]
A
Because I. I was reading the YouTube comments and people really feel away that I don't say thank you when you talk about my face.
- [01:04]
B
Yeah. So here's the thing.
- [01:05]
A
And I'm like, what is this? Like, why are we policing my thanks.
- [01:09]
B
Yeah, so here's the thing. Like, I always, you know, sometimes. Not always, but sometimes. I opened up the podcast calling Jackie pretty or cute and just flirting with her.
- [01:16]
A
He's actually playing with me and mocking me and being sarcastic.
- [01:20]
B
Well, I'm not mocking you. I'm. I'm actually very serious. But the thing, I think that people don't understand because they don't have full context of our relationship. Like, if you were the type of person that said, oh, my gosh, thank you, I probably wouldn't.
- [01:34]
A
You wouldn't even do it.
- [01:34]
B
I wouldn't tell you you're pretty as much because that's what drew me to you. I like the chase. I like the challenge. And so if I wanted to marry a woman that said thank you every single time, I would have. But I. You know what I'm saying? And so for people who be in they feelings about, like, Jackie, just say thank you.
- [01:53]
A
It's.
- [01:53]
B
It was just. No, that's not who I married.
- [01:55]
A
It was legit iring me. Cuz I'm like, first of all, why are y'? All. I was like, why didn't I get mad at him for changing the subject? Because I will ask him how his day is doing. I will ask him if he's excited about the moment and he's deflecting and talking about my. So why is there no energy on. Jackie has like, like a method to the madness and he over here being silly.
- [02:17]
B
I think people be like. I think people interpret it as, you know, Preston's really being sweet, and she just ignore him.
- [02:24]
A
But thank you so much for liking my face. I'm so grateful to have married a man like you. Thank you, Preston.
- [02:33]
B
Why?
- [02:34]
A
You don't know what I would do without you saying thank you.
- [02:38]
B
Why you sound like that's what they.
- [02:41]
A
Want me to do.
- [02:41]
B
Bill Cosby, the Shadow Pudding.
- [02:44]
A
That's what they want me to do. Thank you, Preston. Like my face.
- [02:51]
B
Hey, you should be sounding like Bill because he canceled anyway.
- [02:54]
A
He definitely is in my book. We are here today to talk about. Well, to answer questions from the Patreon Saints. We have a Patreon where people, you know, they get exclusive access to the podcast. They see videos before YouTube does. They get discounts for glory events and merch that everybody else don't get.
- [03:23]
B
They see random videos.
- [03:25]
A
My book came out or Holier than Now. I showed them the COVID before I ever promoted it. And so they just. You know, they just get access to stuff. Everybody.
- [03:32]
B
They special, y'. All, Special.
- [03:34]
A
So. So for the last episode of this season, we're answering questions that our Patreon Saints have sent us, and they sent.
- [03:43]
B
Us some good ones.
- [03:44]
A
Shout out. And so to start off first, Let me say her name. Right?
- [03:49]
B
Let me say her name.
- [03:50]
A
Leticia Lee said, what happened with the Mormon on the plane and what he did. What did he think about the Chosen Series? So for everybody listening, don't nobody even know what that. What that's about. She's obviously picking up on something that happened on the plane with the Mormon regarding the Chosen series that people need context for.
- [04:10]
B
Yeah. So to give you context, a couple of days ago, I was coming back in the country from Cuba, and I got on the plane, and the guy sitting next to me, and I felt like I. I told. Came home, told Jackie. I said I felt like when I sat down, I was supposed to talk to this guy. I was like. But I just came through customs. I'm tired. I really don't feel like talking to this dude. But I'm like, okay. I'm gonna just kind of like. Well, I said I was gonna pray about it. Be honest with you. I was like, let me just pray about it. I didn't. I just. I just put my head down. I was about to go to sleep.
- [04:42]
A
Okay.
- [04:42]
B
And so a couple of minutes later, he pulled out his phone, and on his phone, it was the Chosen Series, the Christian series, you know, about Jesus and, you know, the New Testament, which we Watch. And so I was like, okay, Lord, maybe you want me to talk to him because he's a believer. So I sparked up a conversation. I said, oh, you looking at the Chosen?
- [05:03]
A
He was in the middle seat.
- [05:04]
B
And I was in the aisle seat. He was in the middle seat.
- [05:06]
A
Okay. And.
- [05:07]
B
And he was like, yeah. I was like, I love that series. And he kind of seemed. Looked surprised probably because I look like a little hood dude.
- [05:13]
A
Yeah, you don't look like he watched Chosen.
- [05:15]
B
Yeah, I look like I watch 50 Cent World Star, Hip Hop $0.50 Show.
- [05:20]
A
What?
- [05:20]
B
It's called Power.
- [05:21]
A
Yeah.
- [05:23]
B
And so, yeah, we start talking about the characters or whatever, and then, you know, talking about Matthew, Nicodemus and all the characters on Chosen. So then I go, you know, are you a Christian? And he paused and says, yeah. And I was like, that was weird. Like, why did he pause like that? And then I go, like, what church do you go to? You know? And he goes, I'm a Mormon.
- [05:46]
A
Okay.
- [05:47]
B
And I, I like, kind of put my head down. And I was like, you funny, God. You know, for context, I have, you know, developed a really big heart for Mormons and just people who are in, you know, different religions trying to reach them throughout the years. And. And so we sparked up a conversation, you know, about Mormonism, about the LDS Church and stuff like that. And so without giving the full story, because we had, like, a really long conversation on this flight. This flight was a couple of hours. You know, we talked about some of the, you know, the, The. The main things. And one of the things that we talked about was Joseph Smith and him being a true prophet. We talked about, you know, the celestial marriage is how they believe. Mormons believe that we'll be married forever in heaven.
- [06:34]
A
Okay, so let's. Let's deal with Joseph Smith, right? Who is Joseph Smith? What does he have to do with Mormonism? Why is he considered a prophet? And how do we respond to that? Biblically.
- [06:45]
B
Yeah. So What. What? The LDS Church believed that Mormon, that Joseph Smith in the 1800s was a prophet that God raised up to essentially give a New Testament of. Of the Gospels. I mean, the 1800s, they believe that this teenager, kid, angel visited him or whatever, and, you know, God used him to. To essentially write this Book of Mormon that was like, you know, over a course of a couple hours in one night that, you know, an angel, you know, typically wrote it.
- [07:19]
A
And why did they need the Book of Mormon and not just the scriptures?
- [07:22]
B
Because they believe. Well, what the guy told me on the plane and other Mormons have Told me they believe that, that when the apostles left, there was a gap.
- [07:33]
A
Okay.
- [07:34]
B
There was a, there was a, there was a void missing. And so God, Jesus typically used the apostles and the prophets, you know, and so when the last apostles left, that there was no official prophet on the earth to communicate God's truth.
- [07:48]
A
Interesting.
- [07:49]
B
And so, you know, they believe that, you know, hundreds of years later in the 19th century, God raised this up, up this prophet, which was a, A guy named Joseph Smith, to essentially like, fulfill. Yeah, to fulfill the word of God. They would tell you that, you know, Joseph Smith helped restore because a lot of things were lost, but also he just didn't necessarily restore. He wrote another testament, a New Testament of, of the Scriptures.
- [08:17]
A
The New New Testament.
- [08:18]
B
The New, the New New Testament. They don't necessarily believe that the canon was closed. And they believe that, you know, they would teach things like the Christian church has fallen away and Joseph Smith came to restore.
- [08:28]
A
And so they consider him basically not a, not an apostle, but a prophet. A prophet who, through this angelic visitor has new revelation that has the same.
- [08:42]
B
Authority as the scriptures, the apostles.
- [08:46]
A
The same authority as the apostles.
- [08:48]
B
Yes, okay, yes. To write scripture because they had the authority to, you know, write scripture.
- [08:53]
A
So in your conversation with the guy on the plane, when, when y' all got around the subject of Joseph Smith being a prophet, like, what, what, what was old boy's position on, like, why he's considered a prophet?
- [09:05]
B
Yeah, it was the same, it was the same conversation that I had with Mormons in the past. And, and, and that is so one of the things I, I like to do is I like to ask him just straight on questions with gentleness and respect, you know, so the, the conversation was respectful. I think from early on he understood that I was a, you know, a Christian.
- [09:23]
A
Right?
- [09:23]
B
And so I asked him, I said, you know, why do you believe in your heart that Joseph Smith is a prophet? You know, and he started to. One, he started to just hit me with all of these facts about how an angel visited him. And it's impossible for somebody to write this book that was clearly, you know, you know, a divine book. Like, nobody can do this in one night. And so they, they point to, like, gifts and, you know, and things. There's really no proof that he wrote it in one night because nobody was around to confirm it. But even if it did, I believe that, you know, other spiritual beings can help you do stuff. But also, But I didn't say that.
- [10:04]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Demons be writing too.
- [10:08]
B
That's Offensive, Right.
- [10:09]
A
They got pencils, too. What you mean?
- [10:12]
B
I didn't. I didn't. I didn't say that.
- [10:14]
A
But one of, like, that demon that wrote Enneagram.
- [10:17]
B
Okay, stop it.
- [10:18]
A
O.
- [10:19]
B
See, we getting off topic. O.
- [10:21]
A
Sorry, go ahead.
- [10:22]
B
Okay, so that's for next season. So one of the things that I said was, you know, how do you believe that he's a prophet? So he went in and told me all of these things, and I said, well, no, you're telling me these. These facts that I don't necessarily have proof of, nor do you, because you wasn't there back then. You believe it. Right. And I'm not, you know, trying to reach over your head. Because if you believe, why do you personally believe in your heart that Joseph Smith is a true prophet? Because I'm just help me understand. And I always say, help me understand that because it doesn't seem as confrontational. It gives them the. The room to like, almost kind of like, be a teacher for me. And one of the things that he said was, you know, he's just pointed to faith, and he was like, you know, faith, it's not about what we can see, you know, and faith isn't necessarily having all the evidence. It's about believing something that we can't see. And I said, well, no, the Bible says that the faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen that faith comes by hearing. Right. And so there's a response. Right? And so he was like, okay, but.
- [11:25]
A
Yeah, and it's a response to an objective truth.
- [11:29]
B
Right?
- [11:30]
A
So it isn't faith for faith's sake. Like, I just believe for the sake of believing, but rather I believe in something that is legitimate, objectively true, sincere, and provable.
- [11:42]
B
Provable. Yeah, absolutely, to a certain degree. And so one of the things that he said was, you know, I prayed a prayer which. Which is kind of what I wanted him to get to eventually. Because in the Mormon faith or the LDS faith, a lot of them say, like to say LDS and the LDS faith latter, you know, LDS faith, they like to say that. That when you come of age, you have to pray a prayer and God has to reveal to you that Joseph Smith is a true. Is. Is a true prophet. And so that's essentially what he ended up saying to me. And so I said, well, let me ask you a question. I said, if I came to you and said that God said that I can live out, you know, and live in a house with a woman that I'm not married, and we can have sex with each other occasionally. What would you say?
- [12:23]
A
Right?
- [12:23]
B
And he said that, well, I would tell you that, you know, I wouldn't judge you. He said, I wouldn't judge you, you know, but I would tell you that I believe that the Bible says that it's saying, but I would, I wouldn't personally judge you. And I said, well, man, like, well, the Bible does tell us to judge, right? Because it tells us that we can know a, a tree by the good fruit that it produced, right? And so the Bible does tell us we have some level of jud, right? It doesn't say we can sit on the throne as a judge, right, that we have the final authority, but it does tell us to judge one another through the lens of scripture. And so, so, so he was like, well, yeah, I would, I will tell you that the word of God says this. And I said this, with all due respect, sir, I said, when I've talked to, you know, Mormons in the past, you guys all said that, you know, that you, you prayed a prayer. I said, but when I ask you questions like this, you immediately use the word of God to judge my claims. I said, but, but I said, but the thing is, the Mormon faith doesn't teach you to judge Joseph Smith's prophecies or being a prophet with the same measure, right? The Bible never tells us to measure a prophet in that way. In Deuteronomy, it tells us that we, we, we, we know that if a prophet prophesies something and that prophecy does not come to pass, that he is a false prophet and not to fear him. Yeah, right.
- [13:38]
A
You hit that word in your heart.
- [13:39]
B
Yeah. And so, and so, like, I was like, my question to you is, why don't you guys measure Joseph Smith's, Joseph Smith being a prophet with the word of God? Why did, why is it, why is it this prayer? And he was like, well, that's a good question. He was like, and, and I respected him for saying that, you know, he didn't try to, like, formulate, you know, an answer for me. And he was just like, no, that's a good question. And then we got, you know, he was like, that's something that I'll think, think about. And so when somebody typically said says that I don't, I try not to, you know, beat him over the head. I just kind of like, let them rest. I, I like to allow people to rest with, with a question that they can't, that they can't answer, you know, because I, I believe that God does a work after that, you know. Yeah. And so then we start talking about faith, you know, how we're saved. And they believe that a lot of their works, which, you know, other religions are typically work, work based religions. They believe, you know, I've said, you know, on my YouTube channel that most religions have found something to work for to please God. Christianity is the only one that says the God who finished the work found me. And I think that's so true because, you know, when you, when you talk to other religions, because they don't understand the person of Christ and who Christ is and the deity of God, they typically misunderstand grace. And because they misunderstand grace, they always typically work to try to be right in the eyes of God because they don't understand that grace factor. And so in the Book of Mormon is, in the, in the Book of Mormon, there's a book in, in the Book of Mormon called Nephi and Joseph Smith. In the LDS Church, they use a lot of scriptures from the, from the Holy Bible.
- [15:26]
A
Who are these people? Like, who is Nephi? Who is that person? He's a, somebody he met. That's an angel.
- [15:33]
B
Yeah, see, but see, see, we, the.
- [15:36]
A
The whole angelic worship thing is because.
- [15:40]
B
They believe that Joseph Smith technically didn't write the Bible. They believe that angel wrote angel, angel wrote the Bible, angel visited Joseph Smith and the angel is the one who wrote the Bible, who wrote the Book.
- [15:53]
A
Of Mormon probably was an angel, just not the kind of angel they think, a fallen one. Hello.
- [16:03]
B
Yeah. And so, and so in Ephesians it says that we are saved by grace through faith, that it is a gift so that none of us can boast not of our works, so none of us could both. And in the Book of Nephi it says that we're saved by grace through faith after all we can do. And so essentially to believe that after we've done all we can, that's when God grace comes in and saves me.
- [16:25]
A
That's what Donnie Miller Clark.
- [16:28]
B
And so I was just like, man, the Bible really doesn't teach that. You know, it tells us that we're saved by grace. And he was like, well, don't you think that God want us to work? And so we, we start talking about works and faith as, as it pertains to our works. And I was telling him, I was like, the Bible tells us that our works, you know, are filthy rags. And one of the things he said was, well, it doesn't say that God, just because our works is filthy rags, it doesn't mean, you know, he doesn't accept them or he doesn't want them. And I said, well, no, God wants our works, but he wants our works to be a response of the free gift of faith that we've been given.
- [17:03]
A
Right? Right.
- [17:03]
B
It is not proof. Our works are not proof that, that, that we are right in the eyes of God. It's proof that we have been justified in the eyes of God. Right. Our works is not what saves us. Jesus Christ finished work on the cross is what saves us. And he was like, I don't believe that. And I was like, well, in the Greek, the word, the word filthy ra literally translated into scubalon. And that means boo boo rags. It like literally means what they used to wipe their butts with. Like that's what God thinks of our works as it pertains to our righteousness.
- [17:36]
A
A booby boo boo rag.
- [17:41]
B
And I think, I think that's what people like. It's not that God doesn't even want. It's like, no, your works are disgusting to me as it pertains to your salvation. I only want the finished works of my son. And when you receive the free gift of salvation through Jesus Christ, your works is the outpour of the grace that you have been given. And I accept that works, those works are good because it's through Jesus Christ, our works on our own. And I was like, and so the fact that you guys say that we are saved by grace through faith, after we author, all we can do is your works first. And then when your works kind of like fall short, you know, God comes and saves the day. But I was just like, that's just not how God tells us how to obtain salvation.
- [18:24]
A
So how did it end?
- [18:25]
B
That kind of ended with he. He just kind of ended by saying, I've never heard people, you know, use these comparisons of scriptures. I'm gonna look into that. I was just like, well, you know, respect that. I respect that. You know, and then one of the things that we kind of stayed on the longest was just the fact that he, you know, just believed that the, the Mormon Church is the true church. Yeah, you know, we kind of ended there. He just think the Mormon Church is the true church. And, and we just start talking about Jesus and why he came. And if, if Jesus came to, to finish the work that we couldn't finish, why did Joseph Smith have to come and establish this? Yeah. And we just kind of ended there. And afterwards, you know, I wanted to ask him, can I pray for him? But I was just like, nah, he probably think the devil sent me and so we just kind of, like, left it like that. And I thank God, because the rest of the ride, he was just looking up, you know, like, staring intently, thinking. And I just started praying, and I started asking him, asking the Lord to just do a work with our conversation.
- [19:27]
A
Yeah. I was telling Preston when he came back and told me this story. To me, what came to mind was, you know, God uses the foolish things of the world to confound the wise. Because it's not simply the message that you gave. Like, the. The gospel message is foolish to those who are perishing. Right. So. So that hasn't. Has a. Has a. A foolishness. Ness to it, but it's also the package in which the message came in. It came in the package of a young urban black man who would not be perceived as holding this kind of treasure. And so to me, it speaks to the. The. The lengths and the way God shows up in people's lives in really unexpected ways. You are a very unexpected package, but you actually have studied and done the work that met that man where he needed to be or met him with it. Yeah.
- [20:27]
B
I don't know if the Lord used you. I don't know if I should be encouraged or. Or discouraged.
- [20:32]
A
Encouraged.
- [20:32]
B
I'm just playing.
- [20:33]
A
Even when you think of Jesus. God in flesh.
- [20:36]
B
Yeah.
- [20:37]
A
Born in a manger.
- [20:39]
B
Yeah.
- [20:39]
A
To a young girl. Can anyone was not of, like, royal stat.
- [20:44]
B
Like, and also where he came from. I mean, everything. Galilee was considered technically, you know, like, not the prestigious neighborhood. It was considered the. You know, the hood. Can anything good come from.
- [20:55]
A
You mean Nazareth?
- [20:56]
B
Nazareth. That's what I meant to say.
- [20:58]
A
Nazareth or Nazareth.
- [20:59]
B
Nazareth.
- [20:59]
A
Okay, the next.
- [21:01]
B
You be trying to. You be trying to play me. I said Nazareth.
- [21:06]
A
You just said, it's so strong just now. Do it again.
- [21:09]
B
Nazareth. Read the next question.
- [21:20]
A
Pamela, you said, how would you handle a conversation with a believing friend who knows that homosexuality is a sin, but still believes that we are being unfair to the LBGTQ plus community by telling them they cannot be who that. Who they identify as?
- [21:36]
B
This question is not for me. I'll be telling Jackie. She's an apologist. Just in the field of sexuality. She's like, no, you're the apologist.
- [21:44]
A
I don't disagree that I'm not. I just. I think I'm a cultural apologist. Yeah, yeah.
- [21:49]
B
We're all apologists, Loki.
- [21:50]
A
Hopefully.
- [21:53]
B
Get your feet off my table.
- [21:54]
A
No. So this is the thing. How would you handle a conversation with a believing friend who knows that homosexuality is a sin, but still believes that we are being unfair to the gay community, because even LBGTQ plus, though that acronym represents a lot of different groups. And so I'll just handle the lesbian, the L, and the G, and the baby, the community by telling them they cannot be who they identify as. I think that the. The first problem is the end of the question. Right? So I think we are reading the Bible wrong or not reading it at all. If we attribute certain sinful behaviors to our identity in the sense of the Bible does not describe homosexual behavior as intrinsic to a person's ontology. Their. Their being. That's actually a really new understanding of personhood that's, like, risen in the last 100, 200 years. Like, before, like, the 1800s, for the most part, homosexuality was always considered a. A behavior, a vice. It, like, even the terms heterosexual and homosexual did not exist. People did not think of themselves through the lens of their desires. That's a very new understanding. And so even when we get into certain texts that use the term homosexual in the New Testament, those, I think are actually kind of misreadings of the Greek, because the Greek is usually almost always referring to homosexual behavior, not homosexual people. And so when you get to First Corinthians 6, 9 through 10 or 11, where it says, like, don't be deceived, neither those who practice homosexuality will inherit the kingdom of God. He's talking about a practice, not a person. Right. And so that might be some of why or one reason why I think homosexuality or the teaching against it has landed wrong for decades. Yeah, it's because people have assumed that because I deal with a certain sexual desire or have a certain experience within myself in terms of sexuality, that thus means that the experience itself means that I warrant hell. Let me explain. Like. Like, to just be tempted with the same sex means I'm going to hell. It's like, no. To be tempted actually signals that you are born after Adam and therefore you need a savior. Right.
- [24:31]
B
Teach us.
- [24:32]
A
And so the emphasis. The emphasis in all of our understandings of people within any community is that, first and foremost, we are made in the image of God. That is our preeminent and predominant identity marker that. That we were made from and for God. Now, in light of that identity, is where we're supposed to understand ourselves.
- [24:56]
B
That's good.
- [24:57]
A
Right? So if I'm made from it for God, it means that as certain desires pop up, I need to ask the question of, does this honor God? Did this come from God? Does this serve God? Does this glorify God? If not, then who do I go to, to handle it. Let me go to God, who's the great high priest, who's the savior, who's Lord and king. And so how do you talk to your friend about it? You have a conversation about what the Bible says about identity and how we respond to parts of us that are not in alignment with the way we were created.
- [25:26]
B
Yeah. Because understanding our identity and having a firm foundation of how God created us sets the, the tone for everything.
- [25:33]
A
Yeah, that's huge.
- [25:33]
B
Yeah. But also too, correct me if I'm wrong because I don't be knowing a lot about stuff, you know what I'm saying? But homosexuality, not ne. Not being originally in, you know, in the scriptures and it being added, I believe, you know, years and years later, after the, the scriptures was, was. Was written that act, that word that, that's typically used by people who are kind of gay affirming that, you know.
- [26:03]
A
The argument that because the term is not in the original language, that that somehow means that the, the behavior itself isn't actually condemned. Yes, that's what you mean.
- [26:13]
B
Right, right.
- [26:14]
A
Yeah. So. So even if, because one of the terms is arsonic, which is basically this, this Greek term that means men in bed with men, so. And so it's not describing, it's not a noun, it's not describing a person, it's describing a behavior. And just because it's not describing a person and actually describing a behavior doesn't mean that the justice or that God hates it any less than what the Scripture describes it as. Does it make sense? Yeah, like, like just because they interpreted it or translated it in a particular way doesn't distract from the whole message of the scriptures and how it speaks against same sex sex.
- [27:00]
B
Yeah. Because it, it actually supports your argument, which I think is a true argument, that, that God is, he has beef with the, the act. The, the act is what is what, you know, the act.
- [27:15]
A
Yeah. The practice, the activity, the submission.
- [27:18]
B
Us operating outside of the way he created us. Not necessarily saying, you know, I, I'm under this banner or this term of homosexual. The act.
- [27:26]
A
Now I'll, I'll speak to the first part of the question. Like when it comes to friends that might be affirming in one sense, like one, I think you got to pray for wisdom and love to. What I, what I found is that people who are affirming can fall into two categories. They might be those who are really empathetic and really justice oriented. And so they tend to lean towards taking positions that lift up and honor the dignity of other persons. And so I can understand then why they will be more inclined to interpret texts in a particular way. That leaves room for a person to be honored and dignified and have the freedom of expression that they think is true to them. The problem is when we are, when we presume that our compassion and our empathy is actually more than God's empathy and God's compassion, He is the most compassionate one. He is the most empathetic one to the point that he became flesh and dwelt among men and was killed by them.
- [28:41]
B
Yeah.
- [28:41]
A
And so this God by his Spirit has given us a text that is authoritative, that is true, that is convicting, but he's also given us a savior to help us to obey it.
- [28:51]
B
That's really good.
- [28:52]
A
So, like, we can never posture ourselves as. Yeah, like. Yeah. So that's one category. I think there's another category of people who, truth be told, are just people pleasers. Like to, to be honest. So they, they interpret a passage and land in particular directions on controversial, controversial subject subjects that alleviate any tension with anybody. You know what I'm saying? They don't want to be caught between two worlds. So I'm going to take the position that means that ain't nobody going to.
- [29:24]
B
Hate me, which is a very dangerous position to be in. Because if you, if you're a people pleaser, you run the risk of living a life that allows people to shape how you think about the Bible, not the Bible itself.
- [29:36]
A
Yeah.
- [29:36]
B
And so your, your, your, your interactions with people will inform how you see a text.
- [29:42]
A
Which is scary because, because in both categories, the person who is superficially empathetic to a certain degree and the person who is interpreting in light of being a people pleaser, both of them have people as their focus.
- [29:57]
B
Yeah.
- [29:58]
A
And that's a part of the problem that's good that like whatever you do, you do to the glory of God. He has to be the central focus. And so if he is a central focus, it means that I can love you and still have a biblical conviction about sexuality. Like, I don't, I don't have to, I don't have to land in your. I don't have to be tolerant in the way that you define it, to actually be loving. So that's one. But also having a God focus means that my preeminent desire is to please you. I mean, please God. And by pleasing God, I will love you, even if I don't necessarily please you or make you happy.
- [30:33]
B
Yeah.
- [30:33]
A
Yeah. So that's that.
- [30:35]
B
Yeah, that's good. What's the next Question.
- [30:37]
A
Okay, this is light. We needed a light one.
- [30:42]
B
Both of them were light.
- [30:43]
A
After this boom, boom. Chris Lacey said, if you could put four of your favorite movies on Mount Rushmore, what would they be and why?
- [30:54]
B
That's. Man, that's a really good question. I think for me, Five Heartbeats has to be one of my favorite all time minister society because, you know, I'm a hood, baby. And even though it's a lot of violence, hood violence, I think the. The message at the end is really, really good. I think we. We can get a lot out of it. I think I would have to throw love and basketball in there. That's just.
- [31:24]
A
It's just good movie.
- [31:25]
B
It's just a good romantic. You know what I'm saying? But, like, good. What. It's. The story is told so well.
- [31:32]
A
It's toxic, though.
- [31:34]
B
It is toxic. My fourth one is Dang, probably the Color Purple. I love the Color Purple. That movie was so dope to me.
- [31:43]
A
It's so long.
- [31:46]
B
And I gotta think about my fifth one. What's your. What's your five?
- [31:48]
A
It was only four.
- [31:49]
B
I already know it was only four. Holland opus.
- [31:52]
A
So Seraphina, a South African classic. A Beautiful Mind with Russell Crowe. Because that. That movie is so interesting, you know, like, you have this guy who's like a. A scientific genius who starts to see things. And by the end of the movie, you realize that the conversations and the partnerships and the friendships and the relationships that these scenes have kind of been focusing on are actually in his imagination. Like he's. He's seeing things. You know what I'm saying? And it always reminded me of the story of Nebuchadnezzar, how he was this high and lifted up king. But because he took pride in his position, the Lord took his mind. And I just. I think to see a scientist be humbled in losing his mind is really ironic. So, yeah, I had to share that. Mr. Holland's opus, like my fave.
- [32:51]
B
Yeah.
- [32:51]
A
And then Selena.
- [32:53]
B
Okay, those are.
- [32:55]
A
Those are definitely my mount. My mount Rushwood. Selena's.
- [32:59]
B
That's.
- [32:59]
A
That's my jam. Okay. This is definitely for you because Erica Porter said, what relationship tips do you have for extroverts wanting to be more mindful of their interactions and expectations of the introverts in their lives? One, one. I really like how she organized that sentence.
- [33:19]
B
Yeah, that was written really well. It was.
- [33:21]
A
Good job.
- [33:22]
B
Well written. Yeah. The first thing I would say is just chill out.
- [33:27]
A
Okay. That works. Chill out, man. You know what I'm saying?
- [33:30]
B
I don't Know, I think that they're different level of extroverts.
- [33:34]
A
Okay.
- [33:34]
B
I think you talked about me being like an extrovert but not an extra extrovert.
- [33:38]
A
Yeah. I've explained you to people. I said, preston is.
- [33:44]
B
We finna say something crazy.
- [33:46]
A
Preston is a traumatized extrovert.
- [33:56]
B
So explain.
- [33:56]
A
You don't have an issue with talking to strangers. Obviously you had a whole conversation with a mormon in the middle seat.
- [34:02]
B
Yeah.
- [34:02]
A
Like, you don't have it. Like, you don't get drained by human interaction like I do. Right. But you are, you are super hyper vigilant and super cautious. So that in certain environments people might assume you're an introvert because you're watching your environment and not actually.
- [34:19]
B
Yeah, that just kind of grew up from how I grew up.
- [34:21]
A
Right. I was raised like, because there's some extroverts that are extra meaning. They don't got social cues. They just be talking and yapping and. And then they get offended because you not talking. And as excited as they are, like, those extroverts give me an intensity of anxiety that I can't even explain.
- [34:39]
B
And then, and then, you know, as I got older and became a Christian, you know, my caution that it was joined with like discernment as well.
- [34:49]
A
Let's explain that.
- [34:50]
B
And so, like, I just be discerning, you know, rooms and environments and some people, I'm like, I'm actually extrovert. I just, I don't trust you. You know what I'm saying?
- [35:01]
A
So as an extrovert in relationship with a introvert, how have you managed that? Right.
- [35:06]
B
Yeah. So I think I, I think one, it's, I think it's a level of maturity that, that I had to go through. And I think all extroverts have to go through to understand the way we are wired. It, it seems normal. Like, I think that's for everybody. I think for some introverts, it's like, why do you want to talk all day? Like that don't seem normal. Right. And that's why I think for, I think for sometimes, I think sometimes for extroverts it can be like, well, if we're not, if we're not beefing, you know, if we like each other, like, why don't you want to talk to me right now? But understanding that some people are not just wired like that, I think, I think you have to walk in a certain level of understanding and empathy to somebody who's, who's wired different. Different than you. Because I think what we have to understand is I think a lot of extroverts will be closer with introverts if the introvert felt like they had the room to be who they are. Yeah, right.
- [36:05]
A
Yeah.
- [36:05]
B
And so I think, you know, understanding. For the extrovert to understand that, no, I actually would have greater relationships with introverts if I gave them the space to live and to breathe. You know, I'm saying so for you, even when we were friends, you know, for three years, I knew that you were introverted. I like, I like, we were around each other enough to know Jackie kind of is tapped out and we became really good friends because I didn't mind being in the space with you, not talking. Yeah, but we still like to be. We still like being around one another. But I didn't have to speak to you.
- [36:41]
A
Yeah.
- [36:42]
B
You know, and so I think that's another thing. I think some people are really uncomfortable with silence.
- [36:48]
A
They are.
- [36:49]
B
It's just like. No, like you can.
- [36:50]
A
And what is that?
- [36:51]
B
Yeah, because, because I think, I think for, for people who like to talk and for people who, people who like to have conversation, I think that's how they, that's how they bond. That's how they.
- [37:05]
A
But some of it seems like an insecurity where you attribute to the silence to maybe what this person thinks about you in them not wanting to talk to you.
- [37:19]
B
Because, because I think when it really ain't even a.
- [37:21]
A
It might be about you actually, but it might not be.
- [37:25]
B
I think it could be a couple of things, but I think one of the main things the insecurity can form when that's how they are. Like if, if, if, if, if I'm a safe, say for instance, I'm a extrovert, which in some way I am. Right. If I don't like a person, I'm probably not going to talk to them.
- [37:45]
A
Right?
- [37:45]
B
But if I, if I, if I like you, I'm going to talk to you as much as I can.
- [37:50]
A
Right.
- [37:51]
B
And so I think they might be projecting how they interact and how they.
- [37:55]
A
Interesting. Yeah, yeah.
- [37:56]
B
Onto an introvert. And an introvert doesn't have to. It's not that they don't like you. They probably don't like you now because you talk too much. But they, you know what I'm saying?
- [38:06]
A
Stressful.
- [38:06]
B
But like, like, so I think, I think it can be a lot of projecting, you know, how they feel or whatever. And so I think just being, being okay with silence, understanding that everybody is not wired like you. And, and also just pray for discernment and pray for God. To just give you wisdom and insight. It doesn't necessarily mean you have to, like, tone down your personality or whatever. Don afraid to ask an introvert, am I talking too much? You know, be mindful. Don't love the sound of your own voice more than you pay attention to a person's body language. You know, I'm saying, be, be aware. And I think that. I think that when we. The more we are aware of the world around us and stop being so consumed with the things that's coming out of our mouth, and sometimes it's a legit curiosity of the other person. But just know that, like, you be making people out here.
- [39:01]
A
And truth be told, even the. The subject, the idea of introversion. Extroversion is a theory, right? And so really, I think the greater task is how does love show up in my personality, right? And so if. If my burden is, however I'm made, if I'm more prone to being quiet or if I'm more prone to talking, how do I love through that? Right? And so for me, you know, I'm not the most talkative person around certain people, but around other people, I am, right? And so in spaces where I don't feel as inclined to speak, the way I show up in love through my personality is if someone speaks to me, I speak back, I engage, I try to be cordial, or I lean into the introverted part of me, which is to observe. And I'm able to pick up on a lot of things because I'm not so addicted to talking. But in me, picking, picking up, one of the downsides of that could be you become judgmental, right? You become so observant, you pick up so many cues that you could pick apart people's personalities without having a conversation. And so part of the burden of love is if I observe a thing, I'm praying about it. Yeah, right. If I am an extroverted person. And how does love show up in that personality type? It means if you're gonna talk a lot, you need to make sure your words are edifying, that you are building up and not tearing down, that you're not being nosy, but you're actually being intrigued for the sake of loving and honoring that person. Person. So, but I'm just trying to eliminate even these kinds of categories that we put ourselves in, and we depend on these categories more than we pay attention to. How do I just love people through the way God made me?
- [40:38]
B
That's good. That's real good.
- [40:46]
A
Okay. The shell or they shell. If, if. If she was in St. Louis. I don't know what her mama meant it to be pronounced as, but we would say they shell.
- [40:57]
B
They shell.
- [40:57]
A
They shell.
- [40:58]
B
Hey, they show.
- [40:59]
A
No, it's not shell. They shell.
- [41:02]
B
They shell.
- [41:03]
A
Yeah, there we go. They shell Disney. That's.
- [41:06]
B
That's her name.
- [41:07]
A
That's what it say.
- [41:08]
B
Okay, cool.
- [41:09]
A
From New York. She said, hey, my favorite godly cousins. In my head, hey, girl. Mine is a two part question. God is seeking godly seed. Okay. She's declaring a thing.
- [41:21]
B
What? Hey, they share. Why you. Why you start to send this off like that? You a wild girl. She's so wild for that.
- [41:29]
A
She said God is seeking a godly seed. That is so spiritual. Like what? Where are we going? So with four children. Wait a minute. How are you both discerning their gifts and preparing them as they grow? And how do you answer your children's question questions when they doubt God? So let's just answer one. Since God is seeking a godly seed. Hello. How with four children are we discerning their gifts and cultivating them?
- [41:57]
B
I don't mean to harp on the way she started off this question, but a godly seed, the way she started off did not make me think that was about parenting. I thought she was gonna talk about planting a harvest.
- [42:07]
A
No, I mean in, in the children reap.
- [42:11]
B
Reaping.
- [42:11]
A
He is seeking a godly seed.
- [42:13]
B
He is seeking to worship him spirit and the truth.
- [42:16]
A
He had this prophetic like arrangement to it. I sense in my spirit. I sense in the latter day that God is seeking a God.
- [42:25]
B
Listen to this. Like why they roasting me?
- [42:27]
A
It's like he is seeking.
- [42:29]
B
It's because we can roast one another.
- [42:31]
A
Seeking a godly seed.
- [42:32]
B
You all for that they shall.
- [42:37]
A
So do you want me to answer first? Okay. So discerning our kids gifts, I mean, that's been my attention since day one. And one of it is I am really intrigued by psychology and sociology and the study of people. I spent a lot of time loki just watching and paying attention to people. And so when it came to my children, even when Eden being our first, I just tried to pay a lot of attention to how she seemed to be wired and tried to discern through God's help what that might mean for her. I think she is one of the clearest examples of discerning gifts. Because she's oldest.
- [43:18]
B
Yeah.
- [43:19]
A
Right. And so I think in Eden we've obviously discerned that she's a communicator. She's been really talented and gifted with words since she was really, really young. She has a really clear intellect. Like, she is able to understand and have a level of depth that is just interesting.
- [43:38]
B
It's different, you know, it's almost scary. It's like, girl, yeah, you ate.
- [43:42]
A
And she's also a leader. And so I think you put all of those together. It is possible that because there's this intersection I've been reading in a book, that sometimes there is a natural talent or a natural ability that the spirit actually kind of sanctifies. And so, like, for me, I think I have a natural gift with words, a natural way with communication. And when I was born of the spirit, then that became kind of sanctified in the sense that now I teach and inform and educate people. And I think Eden might have that same gift.
- [44:19]
B
Yeah. Because it's. It's weird to see one Eden. It's just. I think a lot of times I see both of our gifts wrapped up in one, you know, the way she processed.
- [44:30]
A
But we also have similar gifts.
- [44:31]
B
We also similar.
- [44:32]
A
We're both teachers.
- [44:33]
B
Teachers, communicators or whatever. And so, like, with her, it's. It's not just one other. It's kind of like. Like, almost like both.
- [44:40]
A
Yeah.
- [44:41]
B
But also, too, the way she processes so quickly with you, like, it reminds me of you.
- [44:47]
A
You just.
- [44:48]
B
You just process things so quickly. But her. Her memorization, right. Is me. Like, I memorize things. Really. Really. My retention is crazy. And so, like, it's just all together. And so, like, for me, you know, particularly with Eden, I feel like I've been called to steward her leadership, you know, giftings like. Like one. To instill in her that she's a leader and also to help her with humility in being a leader. Because I think, you know, when you are a natural leader, I think the tendency sometimes is to be, you know, dominant. Dominant, you know, and so consistently, our prayer at night or riding. Riding home from school, she was telling me, you. Even when she talks about school and what she's. What she. What she had, what she did with her classmates, she don't even understand it as leadership.
- [45:45]
A
Yeah.
- [45:46]
B
And it's like, you. You was able to do that, Eden, because you're a leader. Well, they're older than me. Some of them older than me. And I'm like, no, but you're still a leader. You don't understand. You know what I'm saying? And so, like, now just really trying to grow her up and teach her humility and what that looks like, being a leader in the world now. I think it's. It's Is. Is really important for me. The other kids like Autumn. I mean, she's just so artistic, and so. Yeah.
- [46:10]
A
Yeah. I was just gonna give a real quick example, practically, of just different ways I've tried to cultivate Eden. One, when it comes to the Bible, we will read it, and I will tell her to explain what she sees, how she understands it.
- [46:29]
B
I was doing that the other day. I was listening to y' all with baptism.
- [46:31]
A
We was reading about baptism because I'm. I'm trying to develop up. Not. I'm trying to kind of, like, prepare her for the work of interpretation and explanation at some point.
- [46:42]
B
You're doing a good job, too.
- [46:43]
A
The leadership part is one time she was helping or her. Autumn were cleaning up the room, and she was getting frustrated. You know how she always does. Because Autumn won't help because Autumn got. She. Autumn gets very easily distracted.
- [46:56]
B
Yeah.
- [46:56]
A
And I told Eden, I said, listen, I said, your sister is probably overwhelmed by the amount of things that there are to do. And so you need to identify an area that she can focus on, give her that task, and once she's finished, come back, and we'll figure out another one. So that's showing her, like, no. Leadership is also observing the situation at hand, discerning the person you're leading, and then delegating a particular task that is in alignment with their nature. And so, like, leadership ain't just go clean the room. It's no how can I serve you?
- [47:28]
B
You. Yeah.
- [47:28]
A
And helping you clean the room. Now, in light of Autumn, I think we're figuring. I think Autumn, she's just a lot like you, man.
- [47:36]
B
Yeah, Like, Autumn, just a free spirit.
- [47:39]
A
She just be in space. Sometimes it's just like, I don't be in space. No, it's not. You up there. You up there. You up there doing something good. You up there, like, you, like. Oh, Jupiter. And the rings. Jordan got six rings. I wonder what Jordan is doing right now. I need to go clean my shoes. Shoes. Because I got a lot of Jordan shoes. I wonder, like, if I need to go get some cleaner. I'm gonna go to Target. That's what's happening while you're in space. And so with Autumn, it's been no. Like, she's gonna have our, I think, creative thing. But I. I don't know. I think I'm trying to discern how do we. Like, how do we cultivate and give her that freedom of expression while at the same time training her to have discipline in it.
- [48:25]
B
Yeah. Because I think one of the things I Wanna help Autumn to understand. And what I have been trying to help us understand is just because you cannot focus on one thing at a time as much as your sister can, doesn't mean you're not equally intelligent.
- [48:42]
A
That's good.
- [48:42]
B
Right? And so helping, like, really affirming her and. No, like, you're smart, Autumn. You're so smart. Or encouraging her. And I've noticed the more I give her encouragement, the more she wants to talk to me about certain things. And so, like with Eden, I could say, eden, what did you learn today? You know, yada, yada. I'm like, wow. Well, Autumn, what do you learn today? I don't know. And so now I have to say, you know, you're so smart. You're so intelligent. You know, you're so intelligent. Chipmunk, tell me, what did you learn? And then it's. She does it with hesitancy, but she does it. She. She explains. And so.
- [49:21]
A
I'm sorry, you actually said something that's actually really important.
- [49:23]
B
Yeah.
- [49:23]
A
Because we not only want to identify, discern, cultivate the giftedness of our children, but we also need to discern the underlying temptations and sins that coincide with their particular personality.
- [49:40]
B
Absolutely right.
- [49:40]
A
So with Eden as a leader, as a communicator, as a intellect, she is also dominant and arrogant.
- [49:48]
B
Yeah.
- [49:48]
A
Right.
- [49:49]
B
Yeah.
- [49:49]
A
And so there's this, like, in helping her grow into who she's supposed to be, we need to deal with the parts of her that's gonna ruin that. Yeah. And so also with Autumn, with her kind of being in the sky a little bit and a sister to somebody who's completely different to her, like, we are having to affirm her. Yeah. Help her focus, but also help her not be insecure.
- [50:13]
B
Yeah.
- [50:13]
A
In light of her differences as compared to her sister now with Sage in August. Sage is different, man.
- [50:20]
B
It's just different. I just that I have no other word to describe her, but different.
- [50:25]
A
Yeah, she's. But what I'm noticing, she's a sour patch.
- [50:28]
B
She's so sweet and so mean.
- [50:32]
A
But I think I told you. I don't think I told you this. We could probably end it here. So I was praying. I pray. I pray for our children all the time. And I felt like the Lord was showing me, because one thing we've noticed about Sage is that Sage is not. She's deeply empathetic. She cries a lot. And that's a part of it, is that she feels very deeply. And I think she. I think she's gonna be a lot like your mother. Just A nurturer, really mindful and sensitive to the needs of other people.
- [51:02]
B
Yeah.
- [51:02]
A
And I felt like the Lord was showing me that because Sage feels so deeply, the degree of her suffering will be unique. And so that I needed to pray for perseverance.
- [51:15]
B
Yeah.
- [51:16]
A
And then I needed to pray for resilience in her because her. Her emotions will be so deeply affected by her trials.
- [51:23]
B
Yeah.
- [51:23]
A
Did I tell you that?
- [51:24]
B
Yeah, you did. You did. We talked about it. Date night, one night. But then also, too, with August. He's. He's one. And, you know, we're still. He's. He's unfolding, but. But for the most part, we. We just. I. I'm noticing he has, like, a little temper problem.
- [51:38]
A
Yeah, he's a gentle giant.
- [51:40]
B
Yeah, he's a gentle giant. So, like, you know, we just trying to like. I'm. I'm, like getting. Because I had a temper problem, and a lot of the things that I saw that was in me, I'm starting to see in him. And so I feel led by the Lord, especially lately, to make sure I give him the same amount of love and affection that I give my daughters. Because me growing up, not necessarily having that love and affection, even kissing him, holding him, hugging him, I didn't have that from a man growing up. And so, you know, what the enemy did with my. My anger problems, it was just like you. Like wildfire. And so, like, I feel, you know, led by the Lord, especially of late, to just make sure when he's mad, to hold him, come on, to comfort him. Because something. I didn't have you so extra.
- [52:32]
A
Oh, my gosh. Because we are going way over. But it's so much.
- [52:36]
B
50 minutes with the Paris.
- [52:37]
A
It's so much. It's so much power in that. Because you had so much misplaced rage.
- [52:46]
B
And angst stilling on folks, you know what I'm saying?
- [52:48]
A
And like, either it. It kind of manifested itself in two places. You either had to fight all the time, like, all the things, or you was having all this sex, and it's really you trying to find places to put your emotions.
- [53:03]
B
Yes.
- [53:03]
A
And so, like, if he had a father or if you had a father where you. He would have cultivated this freedom of emotional expression in you.
- [53:11]
B
Yeah.
- [53:12]
A
You would have had a safe.
- [53:13]
B
Because. Because. Because. Because the other day. The other day, he. He got mad for something that he shouldn't be mad about. Like, he wanted Sage's toy, and that's his toy. So she. He kept trying to drop Sage's toy. And, like, he got so mad to the point he. He did. He does this little sound like.
- [53:31]
A
Yeah, he does that when he's hungry.
- [53:33]
B
And he's just, like, really, really mad. And like, like. And then he starts pulling his hair like he doesn't know what to do with his frustration. And I just grabbed him and brought him to the couch and laid him on my chest and said, it's okay. And he just was. And I was like, man in the father's bosom. But I thought to myself, I was.
- [53:52]
A
Like, the only begotten.
- [53:53]
B
What if I had that? Oh, bye, y'. All. Peace.
- [53:58]
A
Goodbye. No, that's beautiful. 30 minutes with the Perrys is a production of Ivy Media Podcast, edited by Angie Elkins, video recording and audio production by Kim Powell, artwork by Hop and music by Swoop. Join us on Patreon for early access to. With the Perry's episodes and other exclusives. You got two options. You can go to www.patreon.com forward/with the Perrys, or just go ahead, scroll. You'll find the link in our show notes. We are the Perrys. Thank y' all for listening. Now go with God.