Best of WTP – Prayer: The Discipline We All Suck At

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Best of WTP – Prayer: The Discipline We All Suck At"

With The Perrys
Episode Date: July 8, 2024
Hosts: Preston Perry, Jackie Hill Perry (“The Perrys”), with Derek & Christina Perry

Overview

This episode revisits a fan-favorite conversation on prayer—its challenges, how it shapes faith, and why it remains a struggle, even for seasoned Christians. The Perrys approach the topic with transparency, humor, and tangible examples, blending personal stories and theological insights to encourage listeners that struggling in prayer is normal, but worth persevering through.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Is Prayer So Hard?

• Dependence vs. Self-Reliance:
  • Anthony: “Prayer is still a struggle. I think it’s always going to be a struggle because it's a struggle of dependence.” (00:24)
  • The challenge comes from the everyday temptation to rely on oneself and resources, instead of turning to God.
• Busyness and Distraction:
  • Christina: “It’s just the busyness of life… it’s tempting to not go to the Lord first.” (00:55)
  • Prayer often gets crowded out by tasks and responsibilities. The group acknowledges this is a universal wrestle.

2. Light Moments: Washcloths, Loofahs & Cleanliness

• The episode opens with a follow-up on their infamous "washcloths debate," which has become an inside joke with listeners.
  • Anthony: “If you don’t want to use a washcloth, that is all right. Like, you can still make it into glory. That’s not a moral indictment on you…unless you’re musty.” (02:44)
• This playful tangent sets a comfortable, humorous tone and transitions into a discussion about purity and devotion.

3. Growing in Prayer: From Obligation to Relationship

• Transformation Over Time:

  • Brandon: “Since then, I think I’ve gotten better at prayer…the Lord has allowed some things…that has made me trust and made me run to him more.” (00:09)

• Moving from Task to Trust:

  • Anthony shares how prayer shifted from feeling like a spiritual requirement to becoming an enjoyable conversation with God, as he matured and wiped off “worldly goals” attached to prayer. (05:31)
  • He discusses experiences in both charismatic and legalistic church environments, and how both shaped his understanding of prayer.

• Notable Quote:

  • Brandon: “Prayer…puts me at peace and ease when I have…talked to the Lord about my fears, my worries, my plans… I realized I’m not as anxious, I’m not as burdensome after I’ve prayed.” (04:50)

4. Comparing Our Practices: Mechanics and Seasons of Prayer

• Praying Like the Saints:

  • Anthony: “A lot of the saints I grew up with, they had a prayer closet at 5am… When I tried to chase after that, I thought I was a spiritual failure if I didn’t do it the same way.” (08:16)
  • The group reflects on inherited “spiritual routines” and the pressure to emulate them.

• Finding Your Own Rhythm:

  • Brandon: “God had to show me…your life has different seasons. Communicating [with God] looks like doing the best you can, in the most organic way you can, in that season.” (10:06)

• Intentionality Over Routine:

  • “If you love someone, you’ll find time.” (11:42)

• Memorable Story:

  • Brandon recaps getting anointed with oil as a new Christian by his aunt—highlighting how spiritual habits form from community and example. (09:05)

5. Barriers: Idolatry, Busyness, and Our Boredom Threshold

• Entertainment vs. Contemplation:
  • Anthony: “A really interesting enemy of prayer…is that we don’t like being bored… We don’t know how to sit still.” (11:46)
  • Distraction from technology and the constant need for productivity undermine silent, contemplative prayer.
• Faith to Believe God Is Listening:
  • Anthony: “It takes a measure of faith to say I’m actually talking to a being on a throne who can hear me…” (13:34)

6. Productivity vs. Prayer: Temptations and Trust

• The hosts discuss the temptation to “do” instead of “pray”—especially when anxious or under pressure.
  • Brandon: “The temptation to work when we’re afraid instead of just praying…God consistently reminds me that the answers…are at my feet, not in your doing.” (14:19)
  • Reflection on Jesus in Gethsemane as the ultimate example.
• Impatience & Waiting:
  • Anthony: “Productivity over being prayerful…underneath that is impatience…It’s in the waiting that is tough.” (15:55)

7. Prayer Shaped by Scripture

• Not Just Talking—Listening and Learning:
  • Anthony: “I know people who pray a lot and live bad. It’s because they’re praying to a God they don’t even read about.” (18:07)
  • The necessity of grounding prayer in the Bible to discern God’s answers and character.
• Framework for Prayer:
  • Brandon: “The Bible…gives us a framework for who God is. A lot of times in our prayer, we don’t really know as much about the character of God to even know how to communicate with him…” (19:40)
• Jesus’ Model:
  • Anthony: “That’s why the disciples [asked] ‘Hey, Jesus, teach us how to pray.’…We begin with who God is in relationship to us: Our Father, who art in heaven.” (20:49)

8. Legalism and Praying for Others

• How your view of people affects your prayers for them:
  • Brandon: “When I first became a Christian, I was very legalistic… When I prayed for people, it was always to correct them… My character and how I view people affected how I prayed for them…” (21:40–22:52)
  • As empathy grew, so did humility in prayer and ministry.
  • Praying For Enemies:
    • Anthony: “Praying for people is a way to cultivate love for people. Especially our enemies… when you pray good for people that have done you wrong, it forces your heart to move in a different way.” (25:07, 26:30)

9. Practical Routines & Making Prayer a Priority

• Time and Place:
  • Brandon: “I try to make it my business to pray as soon as I get up… before the distractions of the day.” (27:23)
  • Anthony: “I rarely share where I pray because it just sounds weird—in the shower. Because it’s so completely undistracted.” (28:23)
• Using Your Gifts with Prayer:
  • Anthony: “Because it comes naturally, we forget to still pray that God would help us or use us… Lean on his supernatural help.” (28:28)
• Humbling Experiences:
  • Writer’s block as spiritual humbling, leading to deeper dependence.
  • “Just because God has gifted you in something doesn’t mean you shouldn’t stop seeking him in prayer.” (29:50–30:43)
• Growing Closer in the Process:
  • Brandon: “It’s not just about a book and you releasing the books to the masses. It’s about my relationship with you. I want to bring you closer.” (31:42)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Prayer and Dependency:

  • “Prayer is still a struggle… it’s a struggle of dependence.”
    – Anthony Perry (00:24)

• On Busyness:

  • “A common excuse for us not to pray is busyness. But it’s not ever busyness, it’s idolatry. Other things have taken a hold of our affections.”
    – Anthony Perry (11:46)

• On Legalism:

  • “When I first became a Christian, I was very legalistic… when I prayed for people, it was always… to correct people.”
    – Brandon Perry (21:40, paraphrased)

• On Empathy:

  • “In prayer, I think God gives us discernment when we’re humble before him and not legalistic, to know—there’s a reason why this person is this way. I want you to care for this person.”
    – Brandon Perry (24:21)

• On Praying for Enemies:

  • “When you pray good for people that have done you wrong, it forces your heart to move in a different way. And I hate it, but I feel like I gotta do it.”
    – Anthony Perry (26:30)

• On Prayer and Gifting:

  • “When you depend on the Lord… it transcends gifting.”
    – Anthony Perry (29:31)

• On Purpose of Prayer:

  • “God will use it, of course, to edify his body, but he don’t want to use you to edify people if he ain’t getting closer to you… what about me and you?”
    – Brandon Perry (31:43)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:24 – 01:13: Why is prayer a struggle?
• 02:13 – 04:11: The "washcloths" story & lighthearted start
• 05:31 – 07:07: Shifting from obligation to relationship in prayer
• 08:16 – 11:45: Mechanics of prayer routines & personal stories
• 11:46 – 13:34: Why it’s hard to sit still in prayer (boredom, distraction)
• 14:19 – 15:55: The pull between productivity and prayer
• 18:07 – 21:01: Praying to a God you don’t read about; importance of scripture
• 21:40 – 24:21: Legalism and praying for others holistically
• 25:07 – 26:30: Cultivating love when you pray for your enemies
• 27:23 – 28:23: Personal prayer routines and practical tips
• 28:28 – 31:46: Using your gifts, humility, and depending on God in prayer

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Overall Tone & Language

• Authentic & Relatable: The hosts share openly about their weaknesses, challenges, and growth, using everyday language and examples.
• Humorous Yet Insightful: Frequent laughter and asides (e.g., washcloths) create warmth—while quickly transitioning to honest and profound spiritual discussion.
• Encouraging & Non-Judgmental: The hosts assure listeners that struggling with prayer is common and that God desires relationship over ritual.

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Conclusion

"Prayer: The Discipline We All Suck At" disarms shame around prayer struggles and encourages listeners to embrace authentic, evolving, and scripture-shaped communion with God—however imperfect. The Perrys remind us that prayer is not about performance, but about trust, relationship, and continually returning to God in every season.

Must-listen for: Anyone discouraged in their prayer life, or wanting a fresh, honest perspective—with laughs, too.

Transcript

[Anthony Perry]

So we once had a conversation titled Prayer, the discipline we all suck at.

[Brandon Perry]

I remember, do you still suck at it?

[Christina Perry]

I think, you know, since then, I think I've gotten better at prayer. I think, you know, the Lord has allowed some things to happen in my life that, you know, has made me trust and made me run to him more, which is also always a good thing.

[Anthony Perry]

Yeah, I think for me, prayer is still a struggle. I think it's always going to be a struggle because it's a struggle of dependence.

[Brandon Perry]

Yeah, it is.

[Anthony Perry]

It's a struggle of do I trust myself today, the resources I have, or do I trust God to be bread, to be water? And so if anything, I have a deeper respect of and perspective on prayer than I did then. That still, like, pushes against my own, like, self reliant temperament.

[Christina Perry]

And also too, it's just the busyness of life. I mean, when you wake up, it's so tempting to not think about all the things that you have to do today.

[Brandon Perry]

But at first, go to the Lord.

[Christina Perry]

And cast your cares on him and to talk with him and to commune with him. I think that's always the wrestle, you know.

[Anthony Perry]

In this episode, we also talked about using a washcloth.

[Christina Perry]

Yes.

[Brandon Perry]

Or using your fingertips, because some people use their hands.

[Christina Perry]

And I never understood that.

[Anthony Perry]

I mean, I don't. Hey, is it. Is it. Is it a like a first order issue or a sec? I think it's a tertiary issue.

[Brandon Perry]

Yeah, it gotta be tertiary.

[Anthony Perry]

I don't think it's a Kingdom of God salvific issue.

[Brandon Perry]

It's not. So it's no condemnation, but the. But you have to watch the hidden parts. And I don't know what you're doing with your thumbs and your index finger.

[Anthony Perry]

But y. Y' all check out this episode. Hey, saints and N. How are you?

[Brandon Perry]

What it do?

[Anthony Perry]

Hope you're well.

[Brandon Perry]

Hope you're good. Swell, swell.

[Anthony Perry]

You. Last season we opened up talking about washcloths and that kind of started a little thing.

[Derek Perry]

Yes.

[Brandon Perry]

People started DMing us. How many washcloths do we use per week?

[Anthony Perry]

No, do.

[Brandon Perry]

Do we use washcloths for our feet?

[Anthony Perry]

I got a number of DMs asking for washcloth advice or people lamenting over staying over somebody's house who didn't have no washcloths. Or I had this one young lady who was like, yeah, but you don't use washcloths to wash your hands. Listen. What? Listen, do not take offense to me advocating for friction, all right? Like, if you don't want to use a washcloth, that Is all right. Like, you can still make it into glory. That's not a moral indictment on you unless you're musty. But if you're not, then just do. Do whatever. Do whatever works.

[Brandon Perry]

No, I think that. I think the most. I think one of the funniest stories. I know funniest isn't a word, but I want to say it.

[Anthony Perry]

Funniest is.

[Brandon Perry]

It's the funniest.

[Anthony Perry]

The wor. The funniest story if it's past tense.

[Brandon Perry]

Oh. The funniest story was when someone DM. Does. It was like, yeah, I got out the shower. No, I got in the shower. And when I got in the shower, I realized that my husband used a washcloth. And when he used the washcloth, I said, you listen to the podcast with the Perry's dudes.

[Anthony Perry]

They told me that. That they. They just. We, like, we've been reuniting people with washcloths, and they just had like, a.

[Brandon Perry]

Little chuckle together in the bathroom, like, yeah, like, we both use washcloth.

[Anthony Perry]

And somebody asked me, they were like, so can we use loofahs? You can use whatever. My thing. Is the hand not sufficient enough to get off summer dirt? That's. That's all I'm saying.

[Brandon Perry]

And all I'm saying is the hand.

[Anthony Perry]

Is just too smooth.

[Brandon Perry]

Don't neglect the butt. Don't neglect it. Wash it. Set it up.

[Anthony Perry]

Because it has. It's getting neglected. Because if you just put your hand.

[Brandon Perry]

In there, all bloods matter.

[Anthony Perry]

Wow. And to think that we're talking about prayer. Talking about prayer. Talking about talking to God and our Father who art in heaven. Oh, man. Hallowed be his name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And somebody forgive our debtors that sin against.

[Brandon Perry]

So what are we talking about today?

[Anthony Perry]

Prayer.

[Brandon Perry]

Just say after the Lord's prayer.

[Anthony Perry]

Why you talking about.

[Brandon Perry]

Oh, man, let's get past this.

[Anthony Perry]

Okay. You like praying?

[Brandon Perry]

I do.

[Anthony Perry]

Why?

[Brandon Perry]

Oh, man, I. I love prayer because it really does put me at peace and ease when I. When I have. After I have talked to the Lord about. About my fears, about my worries, about. About my plans, and, you know, sometimes I get busy and I don't, you know, pray as much as I should, and I don't feel right. And so I. I thank God for that. But prayer, it's always been good for me. I realized that I'm not as anxious, I'm not as burdensome after I, you know, after I prayed and. So what about you?

[Anthony Perry]

I have learned And I'm continually learning to enjoy it more. Yeah, surprisingly, I think what kind of changed the way I felt about prayer is the more I learned about God and the safer he became, the more I wanted to pray, if that makes sense. And so like when I first became a believer, prayer was kind of, you know, it's something you're supposed to do. You're supposed to seek God and pray and all the things. But it had so many, so many like goals attached to it that were like worldly. And so, you know, you pray to, to only get something from God or, you know, I was in like a super charismatic church and I love, I'm still halfway charismatic. So this isn't shade, but it is to say that we pray to be powerful. Yeah, all the time. You know what I'm saying? Like, you got to seek God, you got to consecrate yourself and you got to fast. And it was only gifts so you could have some kind of like spiritual stature. It wasn't to just simply meet and be with God. And then I went to a super legalistic church where it was if I don't pray and talk to God, then he's mad at me and he's angry. And so I think as I've like been able to kind of like knock off and wipe off all of those extra things and it just actually became about a conversation with me and the Lord. It's just become an easier and more, I guess, enjoyable experience.

[Derek Perry]

Yeah.

[Brandon Perry]

Because I I rem. One time I came to you when my spiritual life was kind of lacking and the Lord.

[Anthony Perry]

We were married.

[Derek Perry]

Yeah.

[Anthony Perry]

Okay.

[Brandon Perry]

Yeah. This was a couple years ago. Probably not. Yeah, a couple years ago. I don't know if you remember when I came to you and I was kind of broken, little teary eyed, and I was saying how I feel like the Lord was telling me that he missed me, you know, that like he missed me in such an intimate and close way. And I remember feeling like this conviction, but also this comfort that God just wanted to talk to me. And it wasn't about anything that I wanted from him or not anything he wanted from us. Because I think a lot of time, you know, us praying and us trying to spend time with the Lord is trying to seek, oh God, what do you have for me to do? And it's like, no, a lot of times God just wants you to talk to him as a son or a daughter. And so I think for me, you know, prayer is comforting in that way. In the same way we feel after we spend time with our earthly father. Like that comfort, that closeness. For me, that's what prayer is. It's like, man, I want to talk to my father, you know, I want to spend time with him.

[Anthony Perry]

So let's get into the mechanics. So you have different people that pray in different ways for different lengths in different places. Right. And so a lot of the saints I grew up with, they had a prayer closet and they would enter it at like 5am in the morning, get it out. I did and I should have prayed about it. And when I tried to chase after that, yeah, I thought I was a spiritual failure because it's like I gotta have a prayer closet. I gotta be like Priscilla Shire in the movie and get all these post it notes on the wall and you know, pray without ceasing and this. And it's just like, no, I want to go, it's 5am and so I guess for you, what have you found that works best with the season that you're in when it comes to praying? The time, the place, all the things.

[Brandon Perry]

Man, that's such a good question. Because when I first gave my life to the Lord, I was living with my aunt who was a minister, who had no kids. And so she took me in. She had so much room for me in this big old house that she lived in because she lived by herself. And I remember, you know, she was the first Christian that I had close proximity with. And so I remember like a couple of months even before I became a Christian, waking up every morning trying to figure out for the life of me why there was oil on my head every time I woke up. And so I would wake up. And so I didn't grow up in a Christian home. So I was so confused. I'm like, why did somebody touch chicken and touch my. Is my head producing oil in my sleep? And one morning she hear somebody praying over me and I look up and she's anointing my head with oil. And the head had to be like 5, 10 in the morning. And as I started to wake up early and earlier I heard her praying every morning.

[Anthony Perry]

I love those prayers.

[Derek Perry]

Yeah.

[Anthony Perry]

And so I don't know what they.

[Brandon Perry]

Saying, but when I became a Christian, I kind of felt like that's what my life had to look like. And if it didn't look like that, I was a failure. But God had to show me. No, like your life has different seasons. And so I think what communicating with somebody looks like, like it's communicating with them the best you can in the most. In the, in the, in the most organic way you can in that season. And so I don't think that God is necessarily calling us to be this rigid robot if I don't pray at 9 o'. Clock. Because if you look at it, that's what, that's how Muslims, you know, praying five times a day facing towards the east. It's this rigid, systematic, almost, not almost, it is work based, you know, type of relationship with God. But it's like, no, like God knows that the man that I was when I was single out there evangelizing is not going to be the man that I am with four kids traveling. Right. And so what I had to realize is that my prayer time with the Lord has to look like when it has to be some sacrifice. I'm not saying that we should not sacrifice waking up when we're tired, when we stayed up with a baby the whole night, previous night. But what I am saying is like, man, like as you go, always make an intentional effort to spend time with God, whether that's on a plane. I remember being on plane rides and having my most pray, like my most intimate prayer times on, you know, late night plane rides or, you know, in my hotel when I travel. Like, like finding that time. Because if you love someone, you will find time.

[Derek Perry]

Yeah.

[Brandon Perry]

You know, and so I think that's what it looks like.

[Derek Perry]

Yeah.

[Anthony Perry]

Because I think a common excuse for us not to pray is busyness. But it's not ever busyness, it's idolatry. Other things have taken a hold of our affections. A really interesting enemy of prayer, I believe, is that we don't like being bored. And what I mean is, is that we don't know how to sit still and to be still. So even when we pray, our, our minds are going to all types of things and they're probably good things. Oh, I need to do this, I need to do that, or I wonder what's on this. And, and if you think about even how we engage with our phones, how we engage with tv, like we don't have to sit through a commercial, we don't have to sit through anything. We know how to keep ourselves entertained the entire day. Prayer is one of the only spaces where you are forced to be still. And I think that's what makes it harder for us to sit with God and contemplate a prayer in particular for long periods of times because we are constantly discipling ourselves to be constantly entertained.

[Derek Perry]

And productive.

[Anthony Perry]

Oh, for sure.

[Derek Perry]

Yeah.

[Anthony Perry]

So it's so, it's so hard to just focus.

[Brandon Perry]

That's so True. You know, so true. Yeah, because, like, that's so good that you said that. Because the world around us is making it low key, making our lives more convenient, where we don't have to watch commercials, where we don't have to wait for this, where we don't have to, like, even swipe our cars.

[Anthony Perry]

We just gotta tap. It's true.

[Brandon Perry]

And so, like, very efficient. We don't know how to sit with anything anymore, you know, and so it.

[Anthony Perry]

Feels like it can feel like a waste of time.

[Derek Perry]

Yeah.

[Anthony Perry]

Like, why am I. Because even if even reading the Bible feels more efficient because we're doing something right. My Bible's open. Oh, that's a definition. Oh, I've circled this word. I've underlined this. I've learned a thing that I can pass on prayer. It feels like sometimes if you don't tap into the mystical spiritual nature of the fact that you are entering into the holies of holies, wherever you. To talk to the divine, if that's outside of, like, your realm of thinking, then it feels like I'm just talking to myself. It takes a measure of faith to say I'm actually talking to a being on a throne who can hear me and who will respond accordingly.

[Brandon Perry]

That's really good.

[Anthony Perry]

That's hard.

[Derek Perry]

Yeah, that's really good.

[Brandon Perry]

That's really good. Another thing too is, I know we talked about anxiety this season, but also, like, like the temptation to work when we're afraid instead of just praying. Like, for me, when I'm concerned about money or concerned about anything in my life, this temptation to do, do, do, instead of just sitting at the feet of God and talking to God and waiting for instruction. I don't do that a lot of the times. And so God, like, consistently has to remind me that, no, like, the answers that you need is at my feet. Not yet. You're doing, you know what I'm saying? And I'm just consistently reminded about Jesus, you know, in the Garden of Gethsemane, when he kept going to pray in the last hours of him being captured, it's like, nah. Like, even in his most anxious moments, when he was asking, you know, God the Father, if this may be his will, like to take this cuff from him, like he was praying and seeking God, you know what I'm saying? And so, like, I don't know, I just think that, yeah, we just have to consistently remind ourselves that prayer, prayer is good.

[Anthony Perry]

I think, like, being productive is good. Like, that's kind of the call as an image bearer to subdue to Cultivate things that.

[Derek Perry]

That's.

[Anthony Perry]

That's a part of what we're called to do. Irregardless of sin.

[Derek Perry]

Yeah.

[Anthony Perry]

But I think the temptation to be productive over being prayerful, underneath that is impatience. Yeah, it's, you know, if I am productive, first and foremost, I can get things done. Now, waiting on God, I don't know when he gonna do what I'm asking, or if he's going to do what I'm asking, so asking. So let me do it now. But I felt like in my life, though, there's been times where I've had to discern. There are moments where, like, even in Exodus, I don't know where it is, but there's this time where something pops off. Moses goes and asks God about it. God is like, why are you talking to me? Move on. Like, go. Go, do what you got to do. Where it's like, he has the maturity and the wisdom and has walked with God long enough, where he doesn't have to ask God what to do. He knows what to do, so do it. But then there are other times where you do need to ask God what to do and wait on him to give you the answer. But it's in the waiting that is tough. And so I feel like so much of prayer has to be intertwined with a just actual relationship with God. Because how you pray, when you pray, where you pray, how often you pray, what you pray, all of that is contingent on what you know about God in the scriptures and the history that you have of God in your relationship with Him.

[Derek Perry]

Yeah.

[Anthony Perry]

You know what I'm saying? I just said, like, four ideas.

[Brandon Perry]

No, that was like four ideas.

[Anthony Perry]

They all make sense.

[Brandon Perry]

It's good that you ended a relationship, because I think that what prayer does, it cultivates a deeper relationship. And so when we feel tempted to not go to the Lord the next time, like, basically what I'm trying to say is when we pray, like, God has the opportunity to show himself trustworthy. He has the opportunity to show Himself to be God. And so the next time, we won't feel as tempted to rest on our ability, but we feel, you know, confident to go to him and pray the next time. And so I think that spending time with the Lord and allowing him to show Himself to us gives us the confidence to say, you know what? Let me not do this on my own. You know, power and strength. Let me. Let me take it to the Lord in prayer and see what he has to say. I think it just builds up our faith because I think at the root of us trying to be productive on our own is a lack of trust. It's a lack of trust in God.

[Anthony Perry]

But what I would add to that is, is that I know people who pray a lot and live bad. And it's because they are praying to a God that they don't even read about. And so they maybe are praying, maybe not helpful prayers or the things that they are asking. They don't have the spiritual maturity to discern the answer. Does that make sense what I'm saying?

[Derek Perry]

Yeah.

[Anthony Perry]

So it's like flesh it out though. If I'm a person that prays but doesn't read the Bible.

[Derek Perry]

Yeah.

[Anthony Perry]

Then even how God answers the prayer, I don't have a framework to figure out the answer myself. Yeah, right. And so it's like, lord, help me to know what I should do today. And they just like, oh, I'm a get drunk, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that. It's like you pray, but you didn't have any context for the answer. When it's in the scriptures, which is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul, that the body belongs to the Lord, like to be sober mind. You get what I'm saying? So I think we cannot separate praying from reading the Bible. Yeah, they are very much intertwined.

[Derek Perry]

Yeah.

[Anthony Perry]

And so that's why it's helpful to actually be reading it and then praying or praying and then reading. So that like.

[Brandon Perry]

Yeah, that's really good.

[Anthony Perry]

We're walking. Right.

[Brandon Perry]

That's really good. Because I think also what reading the Bible does, it gives. Because the Bible is the revealed word of God. It gives us a framework for how. For who God is. And so I think a lot of times in our prayer we don't even really know as much about the character of God to even know how to communicate to him in the first place.

[Anthony Perry]

Interesting.

[Brandon Perry]

And so I think understanding the mind of God will inform how we talk to him.

[Anthony Perry]

Absolutely. Toodlee.

[Brandon Perry]

And so I think that understanding, like having a framework for who he is, I think we approach him when we talk about people and when we talk about ourselves, when we talk about our children. And so I think that if you have this legalistic, this God who sits down and, you know, judges the ungodly, but not this fatherly figure who condescended and came a man and lived amongst people, I think that the way you view God will inform how you pray.

[Anthony Perry]

Yeah, no, it's totally like being informed is a thing. That's why the disciples hey, Jesus, teach us how to pray.

[Derek Perry]

Yeah.

[Anthony Perry]

How did he start? Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. How does he teach them? We begin with who God is in relationship to us.

[Derek Perry]

Yes.

[Anthony Perry]

Where is he? Seated in heaven. What does that mean? He's transcendent. What does that mean? I don't approach him like he's a regular person. That's good that all that off top changes how you pray. Yeah, because it means, like, oh, he's to be valued and respected, but he's also in heaven, yet our Father, therefore, he's transcendent, yet personal.

[Derek Perry]

Yeah.

[Anthony Perry]

And so everything about. I think the scriptures can be really helpful in us being able to pray a certain kind of way. But also.

[Brandon Perry]

But let me just say this because, you know, I'm not even gonna put this on other people, because I know people like this, but I used to be like this. When I first became a.

[Anthony Perry]

What was you like?

[Brandon Perry]

When I first became a Christian, I was very. I was very legalistic.

[Anthony Perry]

In what way?

[Brandon Perry]

And how I. How I viewed people's sin. Like, I didn't humanize people. I saw people sin before I saw them.

[Anthony Perry]

Okay.

[Brandon Perry]

And so because I saw people sin, because before I saw them, when I prayed for people, it was always. I was always praying to the Lord to, like, correct people.

[Anthony Perry]

Interesting.

[Brandon Perry]

I was always praying for the Lord to like, to like, fix this, fix that, fix that. It's like, no, like, you don't really understand me as like a. Like a intimate and personal God for. In the lives of others.

[Anthony Perry]

So explain.

[Brandon Perry]

And so what I was. So when I first came to the Lord, I believe. Well, I know that it was a real supernatural conversion. Right. But that. That same experience that I had with the Lord, I didn't really, like, I didn't really make that connection with. With other people to God. And so every time I saw people, it was always, I saw their sin, seeing sin, sin, sin. And I know this. This is a podcast on prayer, not legalism. But what I'm saying is your character.

[Anthony Perry]

Affected how you pray it.

[Brandon Perry]

My character and how I view people affected how I pray for them because I didn't understand that the same God who had this close, intimate relationship with me has the same intimate relationship and wants to have the same interrelationship with people. And so it wasn't until I stopped praying and started asking the Lord to humble me when he began to allow me to see people. And so it affected how I. It affected how I talk to people on the streets. I didn't want to just focus on a person's sin. But I wanted to find out why are you sinning?

[Anthony Perry]

So how do, how do you. What is the difference between your prayers now? Because you still, in reality, people still do need to be.

[Brandon Perry]

Yeah, I think, I think the difference between my prayers then and my prayers now is that a person's. I look at a, I look at people in a more holistic way because I don't, I don't just think about their sin, but I also think about them, their person. Like I, I pray about. Because I think sometimes we, if we only see people sin, that's the only thing we'll pray for. But we won't, we won't pray for the things that, that cause them to, to make, to have this sin in the first place. And so like, if a person is, is mean, right? It's like, oh, are you talking about me?

[Derek Perry]

Yeah.

[Brandon Perry]

If a person is mean, if we only see their sin, which is them being mean and not think about how they were hurt. Right. That has caused them to clam up and to lash out.

[Anthony Perry]

Interesting.

[Brandon Perry]

We won't pray for that. We only see their sin. It's like, nah. Like in prayer, I think God gives us discernment when we're humble before him and not legalistic to know, like, no, there's a reason why this person is this way. I want you to care for this person. And so like, it just changed the way I did ministry and changed the way how I interacted with people. And not this legalistic, like you're this, you're that. It changed the way I dealt with you. You know what I'm saying?

[Anthony Perry]

Praise God from whom I bless you.

[Brandon Perry]

Because I was calling out your sin, calling out this, calling out that. And I was literally going to the Lord like, this girl is mean. It's like, nah, this girl is protecting herself because she's vulnerable.

[Anthony Perry]

You was gossiping with God and so.

[Brandon Perry]

God was like, nah, like, yeah, like in prayer, like I can reveal some things about you to people that will help you be a better minister.

[Anthony Perry]

And yeah, I think what you said is actually really helpful and important because I've seen it in my own life where praying, praying for people is a way to cultivate love for people.

[Derek Perry]

Yes.

[Anthony Perry]

Especially our enemies. Because Jesus tells us to pray for our enemies and most of our enemies aren't. We ain't out here like David with Saul trying to kill us. Some of us might be, I don't know, but most of us have just regular degular people who are antagonistic towards us.

[Derek Perry]

Yeah.

[Anthony Perry]

Or not for us or do not love us or who have hurt us or wound us, maybe physically, emotionally, financially, like, they paid you back, like, whatever the case may be. And Jesus tells us to pray for them. And I've found that when I sincerely pray for a person, and what I mean is not just imprecatory prayers where it's like, God, be vengeful and enact justice and let your, you know, judgment fall upon their head. I feel like Nigerians be praying like that. And I think there. I do think there's place to pray that God's justice will roll down. Like, I feel like that's a. That's a righteous thing for God to get his justice. Yet at the same time, I feel like when you pray good for people that have done you wrong, it forces your heart to move in a different way.

[Brandon Perry]

That's good.

[Anthony Perry]

Like, and I hate it, but I feel like I gotta do it.

[Derek Perry]

Yeah.

[Anthony Perry]

Cause it's just like, if I don't pray good for you, what's gonna happen is I' ma start acting bad towards you.

[Derek Perry]

Yeah.

[Anthony Perry]

You know what I'm saying?

[Brandon Perry]

Because I think if we. If we. If we get out of prayer only, like, being this judgmental, you know, legalistic type of Christian, I think that we have to, like, truly ask ourselves, like, no, like, did God really reveal to you all that he wanted to reveal to you in that prayer? Because we're complicated in holistic people. And so, like, I don't know. That was just a lesson that I had to learn, and I'm glad I did. And I still can be better at it, to be honest with you.

[Anthony Perry]

But you never answered the question of the mechanics of how or where or when you pray. Like, as a father, a husband, as a busy man.

[Derek Perry]

Yeah.

[Brandon Perry]

So I try to make it my business to pray as soon as I get up, you know, and so as soon as I get up, because I think there is a sweet and silent, you know, and quiet time to just pray before the busyness of the day happens. And so a lot of times I'm a night person, and so a lot of times I pray before I, you know, I go to bed or I pray with you. But as soon as I wake up, you know, I try to pray. But a lot of times my prayer, you know, is alone. When I'm. You know, before I write or before I study, you know, I try to pray, but I. I think it's. It's. I don't know, it's. It's just something about. Something sweet about the morning that. That before the distractions of the day, before my kids wake up, before I say anything, just to say a quick prayer. And sometimes those prayers are long, sometimes they're shorter. But I always try to pray before I wake up.

[Anthony Perry]

Yeah. I rarely share where I pray because it just sounds weird.

[Brandon Perry]

In the shower.

[Anthony Perry]

In the shower. Because it's so completely undistracted.

[Derek Perry]

Yeah.

[Anthony Perry]

And so I will. I will be in there a solid 20, 30 minutes. No phone, no nothing, and just talk to the Lord. Another practical thing about prayer is that God has given us gifts. He's equipped the body, or he's given us all gifts to equip the body for the work of ministry. Right. And I think one of the snares of our giftings is that because it comes natural, we don't think. We don't. We forget to still pray that God would help us or use us or all the things. And I think as a writer in particular, that's why I feel that pressure the most. Like when I was writing my book or when we was writing poetry, you can kind of lean on your natural ability when God wants you to lean on his supernatural help. And I have found that when you depend on the Lord and you ask God to meet you in your gifts and to use you with your gifts and to move through your gifts, like it's. It transcends gifting.

[Derek Perry]

Yeah.

[Anthony Perry]

Like, it becomes a very spiritual and anointed and powerful situation. So before you write, praying while you write, praying before you serve, praying while you serve, servant praying before you preach, praying while you preach, praying. I don't know what else is there. I just said hospitality teaching.

[Brandon Perry]

And no, that's so real, because when we was writing poetry, I was so good at writing poems, I had to remind myself, no, I seek the Lord, you know, for what he wants you to say. But when I transitioned to writing this here book, and I, you know, and I. I'm sending stuff back to these people, like, nah, this is too short. Like, this is. He's like, no, I don't have nothing else to say. I've learned how to communicate a lot in a little writing poems. And, like, I just need your help, God. And so this is a different beast. And so, like. Like, now, just because God has gifted you in something doesn't mean that you shouldn't stop seeking him in prayer. And so now I just find myself just sitting there with the. My. My. My computer open, saying, lord, help me, help me.

[Anthony Perry]

And you know why? It's. It's. It's good and healthy. It's because if the Lord has gifted you in a particular way, I know.

[Derek Perry]

What you're gonna say.

[Anthony Perry]

That leaves a lot of room for boasting. Yes. And so if God puts you in a position where your giftedness is not good enough, then when you pray and it still succeeds and it's still useful and all the things, it eliminates any opportunity for boasting. This is so convicting, because I'll be.

[Brandon Perry]

Sitting at this, Jack, and you know this. Cause I talk to you about it. I be sitting there like, lord, I thought I was a writer.

[Anthony Perry]

That's why people be talking about writer's block. And writer's block is a thing, but sometimes it's the Lord humbling you.

[Derek Perry]

Yeah, yeah.

[Anthony Perry]

And being like, nah. Like, I gave you that mind.

[Brandon Perry]

Like, I know you creative. I know you. You know you can write. I know you're a gifted writer, but I just want you to lean on me and I want to get closer to you.

[Derek Perry]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Brandon Perry]

And I feel like the Lord is giving me, literally drawing me closer to him and just write a book. Because it's not just about a book and you releasing the books of the masses. It's about my relationship with you. I want to bring you closer.

[Derek Perry]

Yeah.

[Brandon Perry]

I want you to trust me more. I want to. I want to grow you in this.

[Anthony Perry]

Come on.

[Brandon Perry]

And so I think that prayer does that. God will use it, of course, to edify his body, but he don't want to edit. He don't want to use you to edify people. If he ain't getting closer to you, he don't want to use you to go out there and do all this stuff with people. If you ain't seeking him, if you ain't growing closer to him, if you ain't calling on his name. Yeah, all that's cool, but it's like, no. Like, what about me and you?

[Anthony Perry]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Brandon Perry]

And so, like, God has just been teaching me that.

[Anthony Perry]

Man, you just preached to yourself, didn't you? Yeah, I feel like you did.

[Derek Perry]

Yeah.

[Brandon Perry]

That wasn't for nobody.

[Anthony Perry]

That was a boomerang.

[Brandon Perry]

That wasn't for nobody else. That was for me.

[Anthony Perry]

Well, I'm in.

[Brandon Perry]

Me, myself, in the house.

[Anthony Perry]

Me, myself, and I is all I got in the end. That's what I found out. That's a really terrible song to end.

[Derek Perry]

Yeah.

[Anthony Perry]

This conversation with and so bye.

[Brandon Perry]

Peace.

[Anthony Perry]

30 minutes with the Perrys is a production of Ivy Media Podcast edited by Angie Elkins. Video recording and audio production by Kim Powell, artwork by Hop and music by Swoop. Join us on Patreon for early access to. With the Perry's episodes and other exclusives, you got two options. You can go to www.patreon.com forward/with the Perrys or just go ahead, scroll. You'll find the link in our show notes. We are the Perrys. Thank y' all for listening. Now go with God.