Diabetes, Sovereignty, and Sickness

Summary

---

Podcast Summary: "Diabetes, Sovereignty, and Sickness"

Podcast: With The Perrys
Hosts: Jackie Hill Perry & Preston Perry
Release Date: February 2, 2026

---

Episode Overview

In this deeply honest and insightful episode, Jackie Hill Perry and Preston Perry share Jackie’s recent life-changing diagnosis with type 1 diabetes, using it as a launching point for a broader conversation on Christian suffering, God’s sovereignty, and what it means to trust God in the midst of pain and uncertainty. With their trademark mix of humor, vulnerability, and theological depth, they explore common misconceptions around sickness, faith, and healing, and provide encouragement for those wrestling with suffering, especially when it intersects with faith.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Life Update & Introduction

• [03:59-07:22]
  • Lighthearted banter about house shoes, managing subscriptions, and surviving the holidays with four kids.
  • Jackie’s honest confession: the holiday season, though beautiful, is overwhelming, especially with her social anxiety and managing young children.
  • Preston notes Jackie’s more reserved attitude towards holidays, to which she responds, “It’s beautiful, but a lot.” [05:39]

2. Jackie's Diagnosis Journey

• [07:24-23:42]
  • Jackie recounts experiencing serious fatigue, strange thirst, and blurry vision while in Australia for ministry—a situation at first interpreted as a spiritual attack.
  • After a circuitous route through dismissive doctors and her mother’s warnings, Jackie ends up in the ER after a home glucose test reads 475+.
  • Hospital staff mistakenly treat her for type 2 diabetes and send her home, only for her health to worsen, eventually leading to a correct diagnosis of type 1 diabetes (an autoimmune disorder).
  • The importance of self-advocacy and the dangers of misdiagnosis, especially as medical staff often made assumptions based on Jackie’s lifestyle and demographics.

“I think if my vision didn’t go bad, I would have just tried to thug it out... That’s the assumption—because the assumption is that all forms of diabetes come by way of how you eat.” — Jackie [19:10]

• Jackie emphasizes the Lord’s providence: her symptoms and misadventures ultimately led to timely care and information.
• A nurse, providentially assigned to her, took it upon herself to educate Jackie thoroughly about diabetes management—“That is the Lord’s kindness,” Jackie says [25:49].

3. Sovereignty, Suffering, and the Christian Life

• [26:02–43:46]
  • Preston pivots: “What do you think God was trying to produce in you by allowing you to go through something like that?” [27:01]
  • Jackie unpacks the biblical reality of suffering, referencing Job, Paul’s thorn, and the necessity of thorns to drive us to dependence on God.
  • They discuss the conundrum of God’s sovereignty, the goodness of God, and the discomfort it causes when suffering happens without obvious reason.
  • Jackie: “If God does away with all evil, God has to do away with you... The way He manages the world is merciful.” [32:18]
  • The true test of faith is not mere deliverance but glorifying God in pain by trusting him, exemplified by Job seeing God more clearly because of suffering:

    “A part of what glorifies God is not always deliverance from pain. What glorifies God is that you know him, and therefore glorify him in the pain.” — Jackie [36:41]

  • Suffering increases Christ-likeness and empathy, enabling believers to participate in Christ’s sufferings and identify more deeply with him.

4. Spiritualizing Sickness & Faith-Based Criticism

• [40:02–47:56]
  • Preston asks about common Christian tropes: “If you had more faith, you’d be healed; God wants to heal you, it’s the devil!” and how Jackie responds to that rhetoric.
  • Jackie affirms God’s ability to heal but cautions against unbalanced theology:

    “The faith God is calling for is the faith that says He can... and if He doesn’t, I’m still gonna trust him.” [43:06]

  • True faith includes trust in God’s character and timing, not simply in the outcome.
  • Suffering sanctifies and increases empathy—“Because we think healing of the body is God’s greater concern, not the healing of the soul.” [43:34]

5. Theology of Healing, Heaven, and the Bigger Picture

• [48:05–58:56]
  • The hosts discuss how pain and chronic illness recalibrate one’s love for neighbor, increase empathy, and foster ministry opportunities.
  • There’s a candid examination of our instinct to demand ease and control, versus a biblical call to anticipate ultimate healing in eternity.
  • “A lot of us just want heaven now... but it’s not how it’s set up. There’s pain today... but we do have God with us.” — Jackie [54:45]
  • Preston encourages eternal perspective: “Sometimes we’re just not heavenly minded... I think God just wants us to look to heaven more.” [55:27]

6. Addressing Evil, Injustice, and God’s Justice

• [59:21–67:21]
  • Jackie and Preston field hard questions: “So, when I was molested, was that good for me? When I got a disease from being sinned against, is God just trying to humble me?”
  • They assert that while God is sovereign over all, he grieves evil and injustice and will bring ultimate justice (“vengeance is mine, saith the Lord”).
  • “We don’t want to live in a world where we believe in purposeless evil.” — Preston [61:05]
  • The doctrine of hell is explored as necessary justice, not simply theological cruelty.

7. Forgiveness, Empathy, and Leaning on God

• [73:13–77:41]
  • On forgiving those actively causing suffering: Jackie advises meditation on the cross, relying on the Holy Spirit, and the fruit of the Spirit to do the “unnatural” work of forgiving grievous wrongs.
  • “God is not calling us to grit and bear it. He’s calling us to rely on Him to produce in us all that’s required to obey Him.” — Jackie [75:25]

8. Conclusion: The Hope of Glory

• [77:41–79:00]
  • The episode concludes with an encouragement to look forward to glory—finding joy and hiding in Christ now, with the comfort that ultimate healing, justice, and restoration await believers in eternity.
  • “Everything that we go through, He’s doing it because He’s trying to reveal more of him to you, because he knows that’s the best thing for you.” — Preston [58:57]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I can make fun of my diabetes, because why not?” — Jackie, bringing levity to her diagnosis [08:21]
• “My pancreas said, ‘Girl, we don’t like you.’” — Jackie [07:24]
• “I might prefer diabetes over that [miraculous pregnancy].” — Jackie [12:41]
• Preston, in awe at Jackie’s calm: “You were like, ‘I feel like the Lord is trying to strengthen my dependency in Him.’ ... you were really walking by faith, not by sight.” [30:12]
• “God does not waste anything... when things happen to you... you don’t go into grumbling and complaining.” — Preston [30:12]
• “The world is organized the way it is because I’m over it... why don’t you think I know what I’m doing with you?” — Jackie, reflecting God’s answer in Job [33:26]
• “Sickness is inconvenient... but it’s in that place where you need me that you depend on me in a particular way that not only sanctifies you but clarifies your vision of me.” — Jackie [45:43]
• “There is nothing that you will give up for Christ that he will not reward you in eternity.” — Jackie [47:12]
• “If we look at Christian suffering... when we share in Christ’s sufferings... now you can identify with your Lord in a way you couldn’t before.” — Preston [38:39]

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Holiday/Humor & House Shoes: [00:48–06:44]
• Jackie’s Diagnosis (Story): [07:24–23:42]
• Spiritual Lessons from Suffering: [26:02–43:46]
• Faith, Healing, and False Theology: [40:02–47:56]
• Heavenly Mindedness & Looking Forward: [54:57–58:56]
• Evil, Justice, and God’s Grief Over Sin: [59:21–67:21]
• Practical Forgiveness: [73:13–75:29]
• Final Thoughts on Suffering and Glory: [77:41–79:00]

---

Tone & Style

The Perrys keep their conversation both honest and accessible, combining humor (even about serious subjects like Jackie's diagnosis), deep biblical reflection, and a deliberate lack of easy answers—mirroring the messiness of real-life faith. Jackie’s dry wit and Preston’s warmth offer space for both laughter and lament, modeling how Christians can process suffering openly, with both grit and grace.

---

This episode is essential listening for anyone facing chronic illness, suffering, or confusion about how faith and hardship intersect—and for those seeking a biblically anchored, hope-filled perspective on God’s presence and purpose in seasons of pain.

Transcript

[A]

Well, the holidays have come and gone once again.

[B]

But if you've forgotten to get that special someone in your life a gift. Well, Mint Mobile is extending their holiday.

[A]

Offer of half off unlimited wireless. So here's the idea. You get it now, you call it an early present for next year.

[B]

What do you have to lose?

[A]

Give it a [e-mail] Switch limited time.

[B]

50% off regular price for new customers. Upfront payment required. $45 for three months, $90 for six month or $180 for 12 month plan taxes and fees. Extra speeds may slow after 50 gigabytes per month when network is busy. See terms.

[A]

Need that coffee. Yeah.

[B]

Hey guys, how you doing? Bless blessed assurance, Jesus is mine. Oh, what a foretaste of glory divine. I was. I was canceling subscriptions cuz I realized.

[A]

That was like the most nonchalant way to come back from hiatus.

[B]

Do you use Sling tv? Do you use it?

[A]

I didn't download Sling tv.

[B]

You asked me to download it because that was allowing you to watch cable without us having cable. Do you want it? Oh, no. It's 45.99amonth. Wow. Do you want it?

[A]

I don't want no Sling tv.

[B]

I feel like we watch Sling TV anyway. Sling tv.

[A]

If y' all want to, you know, sponsor us, I download it again. But as of that right now, deleted, bucko.

[B]

Okay. Hi y'. All.

[A]

Why did you decide to do this?

[B]

Because I got it right now. I got an email for app that I apparently pay for that is 4.99 a week. I said, absolutely not. You are out of your mind. And so then that took me to like, oh, what other subscriptions do I have that I don't need? And so I just want People tv, Apple News, Apple Music, Apple Arcade. She's no Apple.

[A]

She's a good manager of our finances.

[B]

Why would I need Apple Arcade? Cancel subscription.

[A]

I ain't playing. No, this is what you should take from this, guys. You should be encouraged. Cause I definitely won't do this.

[B]

No, actually you need to give me your phone. No, let me. Give me your phone. No, I can talk at the same time. I can talk at the same time.

[A]

Oh my goodness, you are tweaking.

[B]

All right. So how have you been? How was your Christmas break? How was your all the stuff?

[A]

It was cool, man. You know they don't delete stuff on my phone now that I want now.

[B]

Calm. 69.99.

[A]

What's calm?

[B]

I don't know. It's probably.

[A]

I'll delete that. I still Got that?

[B]

Yes. See, this is. You don't got that many vsco. Do you still use it?

[A]

Yeah, I still use vsco usually. Last night when I was.

[B]

How was your. How was your winter break and stuff like that?

[A]

It was good. It was good, you know, it was good being around you're pretty, pretty, pretty self. We ate good. We had a lot of. Well, not a lot. We had quite a few get togethers and with friends and it was cool.

[B]

You still want them house shoes? You want me to buy you some new ones? Look, so first of all, I just canceled some subscriptions. So all that we've been freed up financially first of all, to invest in.

[A]

Some new house, first of all, it's hard.

[B]

You got on essentials in those house shoes.

[A]

Why are you hating on my house shoes?

[B]

Not hating.

[A]

It's kind of hatred.

[B]

Accurately.

[A]

No, no describing. Look, when you break a house you in and it fits like the crown of your foot, like it just fits perfectly. It's hard to. You know what I'm saying? You gotta break it in again. You know, I got a relationship with these house shoes.

[B]

Apparently. It's just that you wear them on camera.

[A]

I don't care. Look at them. Look at them. Look at it. Would you look at it? Just look at it. Look at it. Why don't you.

[B]

I'm sorry for everybody that's listening to the audio. Just when the YouTube video come out on Wednesday, just pull it up. Just watch the first.

[A]

I ain't got no shame in my game.

[B]

Just watch the first 10 minutes so you can look at this. Man.

[A]

People be critiquing me on our podcast. We'd be like, bias President got his feet up. Don't you know I'm at home now.

[B]

Your feet do be in the camera.

[A]

We not in the studio.

[B]

Nah. On the little clips, it's always I am at. It's always. It's always, always a toe.

[A]

I am at the crib.

[B]

Is that your toe be in my shot?

[A]

Huh?

[B]

It's like, why is your toe in. In my.

[A]

That's that one flesh activity.

[B]

I understand. I just. They don't see my.

[A]

That's why it's called One flesh Activity. Y' all doing y' all podcast with y' all buddies? I'm doing with my wife. I got have my toe by her bible.

[B]

It. It just was a little distraction, cuz it was one clip. I was talking about something real serious, real deep. And it's just a little wiggling toe just right there. It's like maybe this is offering Levity So people don't feel too, you know, convicted. A Bruce Reed. He will not.

[A]

Whatever. How. How have. How is your break been?

[B]

I'm going to sound like a Debbie Downer.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. Wouldn't be Jackie or Perry.

[B]

I'm a bit melancholy. I don't. I mean, it is beautiful to celebrate, you know, the condescension and incarnation of Christ. You know, Gabriel coming to Mary and being like, hey, the Lord has favored you. The Holy Spirit's going to come upon you. And then she carried these things in her heart. If she wasn't like, you know, Zachariah, who was unbelieving, talking about how this going to happen and all that stuff.

[A]

She giving us the whole narrative.

[B]

It is really awesome to buy a bunch of presents for our kids and them destroy the house and things like that, and us be with them for, like, multiple days on end and buy a lot of snacks and stuff. Like, it is beautiful. I understand, like, that, like, kids grow up and it won't always be this. You're going to miss all the noise. I get all of that. I'm just saying. It was a lot.

[A]

Yeah, I was. It was a lot.

[B]

It was a lot.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's beautiful, but a lot.

[A]

It was a lot. Yeah. And with your social anxiety, people at the house, a lot get togethers. Christmas, Thanksgiving.

[B]

Yeah. I just prefer spring. I just. I don't know, the holidays. I haven't become that person yet. That was like, yeah, you a little grinchy. I'm not Grinchy.

[A]

Not grinchy. I said grinchy, not Grinch. But, like, you know, you were like, you don't really like the. You don't really love the holidays because.

[B]

It'S what comes with it. It's like. It's beautiful. It's just I'm cleaning up all the time. We got four kids, two toddlers. They're just there every single day because school is out. God bless you, teachers. You get a break. You know what I'm saying? Toilet tissue goes up, water bill goes up, light bill goes up. And then you want to invite people over. Now I got to figure out how to feed them, too. I got to make sure that we clean up so that they can come over. It's just. I'm like, then y' all want trees and garlands and all the. And then. Then marshmallows and hot ch. It's just every day is a performance.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

Every day.

[A]

So next year, I'm catering. You're not lifting the finger. Well, no, I' ma love you.

[B]

Well, if we Keep subscribing to Sling. We won't be able to afford to cater. Listen, Sling needs to sponsor this podcast so we can have somebody come and serve these people. So. Yeah, I don't know. Pray for me, maybe. I mean, I don't. Maybe it's because we didn't celebrate holidays like that when I was growing up. It just was me and my mama and, you know. Oh, I just was in my room by myself. So again, I'm having to do things. I don't know. We're not about to talk about that. I'm glad you enjoyed yourself. Glad the kids enjoyed themselves. I'm glad. God, glory.

[A]

What we talk about today?

[B]

Diabetes. Diabetes. That's what we're talking about. That my pancreas died. Our pancreas said, girl, we don't like you.

[A]

Oh, man. No. So you're an idiot.

[B]

Diabetes. Diabetes. Wait, only. Didn't expect that. Okay. Only you would. What did you expect? Only you would say diabetes. But you know what? It sounds like, big brother. That's what I'm doing. Diabetes.

[A]

Only you would make fun of something that has changed your life so much.

[B]

Because why not?

[A]

Oh, my gosh. Listen. Okay, let's.

[B]

This might have since counted all joy.

[A]

Let's give the people a backstory. Who doesn't? You know, so.

[B]

Oh, my eyeliner. Come.

[A]

My beautiful wife.

[B]

Let me tell.

[A]

Okay, I'll tell. I'll tell.

[B]

Because you be skipping stuff. You tell stories. You tell stories that. Fast forward it.

[A]

I actually wasn't about to tell. See, go ahead. You see, we always on the same page. But yeah, you. You were diagnosed with diabetes, and I feel like people hearing the backstory of that would be pretty interesting.

[B]

Diabetes is crazy.

[A]

It's crazy.

[B]

Here's the story.

[A]

I. I ain't got it, but I feel like I got a little bit because my wife got.

[B]

You got things. You know, we all got our lots in life.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We went to Australia in August. Okay. Minding our business. I ain't feeling.

[A]

Doing ministry. Yeah.

[B]

Preach the gospel. I'm not feeling the greatest. I'm feeling a little weird. Feeling a little weary. Feeling a little tired. I'm thinking, all right, maybe I'm just like, I don't know, dehydrated and jet lag. So I'm killing water. The whole. We was in. We was in Australia five days, but it's like seven day trip because it takes like two days to get there. Killing liquids, killing water, drinking stuff. I don't even drink, if you know me. I don't drink soda. I only Drink coffee and water. I'm drinking orange juice, I'm drinking Gatorade because I just want stuff to quench my thirst on top of feeling mad fatigued. So one of the days we go through, go to. We supposed to do this youth conference. We had dinner with the staff. That dinner now I realize is just all carbohydrates, AKA glucose. I'm eating rice, I'm eating sweet potatoes. I'm eating. I had, remember that man ordered me my own bowl of garlic noodles. Sent me over. Didn't have any idea that I was dying on the inside. So I. I eat all the carbs.

[A]

Do all good too.

[B]

Delicious. I. We went to sleep, took a nap. I wake up, we go to the youth conference. And I look around, I'm like, I can't see nothing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm like, why is everything blurry? I immediately think, oh, this is demonic attack. Like we're about to. You look so serious. We're about to go.

[A]

I'm just reliving this.

[B]

We're about to go preach the gospel and the devil don't want me to see.

[A]

But no, can I'm gonna just pause, please. We were both doing ministry in Australia, but that night you were the only one who had to speak.

[B]

No, you were speaking.

[A]

No, I thought you were speaking that day. Cause you was like, you couldn't see right before you went on stage, remember? And then I spoke. I closed that particular conference out the next day with a sermon.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

Yeah. And so like, I just thought it was like me. I was like, this is. I'm on my knees praying in the back. Like, how does girl lose her sight right before she gotta go on stage? And so I'm like, yo, this is a spiritual attack. That's what I ended up saying. Immediately went to. So I went to praying because I thought like something reversing your eyes.

[B]

Cuz I had to speak three times. We had. I had to speak once at or twice at the youth conference and then teach two times at the women's conference. And because I lost, not lost my sight, but it's like my vision completely regressed where everything was significantly blurry. So when I was teaching, I could not see the crowd, I could not see the time clock. I could see my scriptures. I, I put. I. You know, usually my main script's probably 12 point fine. I put that thing about 22. I just had to make it bigger so I could see it. And again I'm thinking this is like the enemy trying to hinder the. Our Our peace or something. And, and, and not even just the enemy. I'm like, lord, why is this the thing you let him do to me? You know what I'm saying? Yeah. And so we get back home again. I'm still feeling even more fatigued. And so when we got off the plane, I remember you were waiting for the luggage. I was like, can. Because they felt like I just didn't have strength. And I was like, I feel like how I felt like, like my first trimester of pregnancy. It was just strange and I knew I went pregnant, so I felt like I was first trimester of pregnancy and then I came home.

[A]

What if you were pregnant though?

[B]

Well, that would be like a, a miracle. That would be Mary again, right? Like the holy spirit would have.

[A]

Because, you know, I made some, some, some snip.

[B]

Snips. Yeah, you could, you circumcise some things. And so I just, I, I just, I might prefer diabetes over that. I don't know. Do you make time for your annual checkups? Doctor visits, labs, blood work? I do because I, I'm a diabetical. But as for you, I don't know what keeps you consistent. I hope you are. Well, we got kids, four of them. So I, I want to stay healthy for them, but I always don't look forward to the doctor. Just want you to know that what you do before the appointment matters. So before your next checkup, make the one healthy change your doctor will actually notice or you'll get your money back. And that change is adding field of greens into your diet. Filter greens was designed with all of this in mind. Each fruit and vegetable is doctor selected to support your cells, your heart, your lungs, your kidneys and healthy weight. A university study found that participants who only added field of greens saw durable improvements in key health markers. Just one change changed everything.

[A]

I personally use filter greens in my everyday, you know, like, life. Only the reason why is because it's really healthy. One of the things that I love about fielded greens is they flash freeze all of their vegetables. And so because when you boil your vegetables and cook them a long time, it loses all the nutrients. And so flash freezing the vegetables gives you opportunity to not lose any of the nutritional value while at the same time remaining healthy. And it tastes good as well. So I personally think fruit of greens is a.

[B]

Go into your next physical with confidence. One scoop, once a day. Boom. Make field of greens your one smart change this year. You can check out the university study. You get 20% [e-mail] promo code Perry. That's fieldofgreens.com promo code. Perry. And so I. I'm. I'm losing my train of thought. What happened? I came home.

[A]

Yeah, he came home.

[B]

I'm fatigued. I'm tired. I'm on FaceTime. I was telling my mama. What? I was on FaceTime with Megan, but I was telling my mother what happened. She was like, girl, I hope it ain't diabetes. And I was like.

[A]

You sound just like mama legend.

[B]

Girl, I hope it ain't diabetes, but the way she said it, I feel like, you know, when people say stuff, and it's not the way they said it, it's how your body responds to what they said.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And I'm like, she. I really hope she ain't right. And I got on. I was on the phone with Meg. I was like, I really hope the Lord is not using her. Like, I hope that's not true. So, anyway, I go to my eye doctor because I got this procedure called Smile some years back, which is like a version of lasik. And I'm thinking, hey, man, you said the older I get, it's going, my vision gonna regress. And so I need you to check and see, you know, if y' all didn't do the procedure.

[A]

He was like, it's been two years. Not that quick.

[B]

And he was trying to tell me, like, yeah, he was like, your vision's probably progressively been getting bad, and you just. You know, just now notice it. I was like, no, I didn't just notice it. It just legitimately shifted after my nap. And he was like, well, the only possible thing that that would do is your sugar. He was like, you need to go get your blood sugar checked out. I'm like, okay, go to the doctor. I'm sorry for everybody that don't like drawing out stories. You can go and click on one of our podcasts about making disciples or something. Anywho, I go to the. What do you call that? Not urgent care. I go to the doctor. Yeah. Doctor. They ask me all my symptoms, all my stuff. They take my blood, and they send me on my way.

[A]

No, no, you're skipping us.

[B]

What? I skipped you.

[A]

Mama Linda bought something from Walgreens.

[B]

That's you skipping apart.

[A]

Oh, I thought that's what happened.

[B]

Wait.

[A]

Oh, I'm sorry.

[B]

So I go to the doctor, they take my blood, but they do not take a blood glucose test.

[A]

Oh, yeah, I remember.

[B]

Mother says, you need to go to Walgreens and get you a. A test. And that's the problem. It's like when I gave them all of those symptoms, at the. At the very least, they should have given me a blood glucose test to just test immediately.

[A]

I forgot about that, what my sugar was.

[B]

So we go to Walgreens. We get home, you had just ordered some Jamaican food. So I am very excited to eat all these patties and these rice and peas and this brown stew chicken and this cabbage. I think we had some Mac and cheese, too, and Jamaican Mac and cheese. You just never know. But I just. Just was really excited to eat the food. So we take the test, and the thing said, like, I don't know, 475 or something like that. And I told my mom was like, what that means? She said, girl, that means you need.

[A]

To go to the hospital.

[B]

That's what that means right now. And I'm like, really? Because I. I don't know anything about blood sugar. I don't know anything about a blood glucose glucose test. I'm like, I'm not understanding that this is, I guess, a problem. Yeah. And so you take me to the hospital and another mistake is that you bought me a Snickers.

[A]

I didn't know either.

[B]

I didn't know. We in the lobby. I'm just chomping on this thing.

[A]

Yeah. I was like, because she was hungry. I said, the commercial popped up. I said, hungry while.

[B]

Wait. Yeah, I just. I thought it makes sense that that Snickers was delicious.

[A]

I said, hungry.

[B]

That might be one of the last Snickers I've had.

[A]

And so the Lord, it was on you. They took us to the back out of my ignorance.

[B]

Long story short, they took the blood and then the doctor immediately. This is before we even get into the thing. They just taking blood and, like, high blood pressure. It was like, oh, you got diabetes? I'm like, wait. I was like, they not. Ain't you supposed to do some more?

[A]

Yeah, I said. I said, hey, why you say that?

[B]

That quick? Yeah, it was like, immediate.

[A]

We're not even in the room yet. We're in a little. Little hallway.

[B]

Yeah. Is that triage? Yeah. I don't know what that is.

[A]

I don't know what it is either. I'm like, I don't know what you're talking about.

[B]

I was like, I just feel like you should have warned me. You know what I'm saying? And they were like, yeah, your no body's blood sugar is at that if they don't have diabetes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So they say.

[A]

I was in denial. I knew he was. I don't know if he was. I was in denial, because I'm like, my wife eats kale. I'm like, I. I should have. I eat Skittles in the basement all the time. She say, my wife eats my. She eats like a rabbit.

[B]

You should be insulin resistant.

[A]

She'd be eating quinoa.

[B]

You should be type two. God is great.

[A]

Don't speak that over.

[B]

No, there is no such thing as speaking that.

[A]

I know. I'm just saying.

[B]

Let's be clear. I can't. I can't speak anything into existence. Only God has to will it into existence, and we just submit to his will. But I'm just saying. I think that was part of what felt confusing. Yeah, it was, is that I eat pretty well. I don't overdo it on stuff. And that's the assumption. Because the assumption is that diabetes, for, like, all versions of diabetes come by by way of how you eat or what you ingest or what you drink and how active you are. And so to me, that was a clue that even the diabetes that y' all are telling me I have might not be the diabetes that y' all are telling me I have. Because the doctor was like. I was like, what type am I? And his immediate thing was type two got to be. And I was like, well, I'm googling. And there's type 1, there's type 1.5, there's type 2, and it's giving. I don't know how I would be type two because it's not hereditary, it's not in my family. I don't eat a certain kind of way. I'm pretty active, all the stuff. So that's another, I think, thing that I discovered in this conversation is how quick doctors can be to misdiagnose and not do the due diligence to make sure that they tell you what you actually are so that you can get the care that you actually need. And so, long story short, they took me back there. I ended up being in what is called dka, which is basically like, my blood glucose levels were so high that it creates this acidity in your blood, which is basically very dangerous, where you could die if you don't catch it. And so it really. I think it landed on me eventually that the Lord. This sounds like an overstatement, but it isn't that the Lord saved my life, you know what I'm saying? Because for me to be in dka, technically in Australia, all those symptoms of me highly urinating, me being super dehydrated, me being very fatigued. I mean, that whole time I was in dka. And so my vision went bad was a clue that something is wrong with my body, which made me go get it checked. I think if my vision didn't go bad, I would have just tried to thug it out. You know what I'm saying? And then I'm drinking orange juice. I'm drinking all this juice. Like, putting more sugar, more glucose in my body. Not knowing my pancreas no longer produces insulin, so it cannot offset or put this sugar somewhere else. So I say all that to say.

[A]

I think the Lord was kind.

[B]

Yeah, he saved me. And. And when I was in the doctor. Oh, that's also what happened. We went to the doctor, they put me in the thing. And she was like, yeah, you ain't gonna be able to eat. I was like, but I got some Jamaican food. Because the doctor was five minutes from the house. I said, my husband's back on. He on the way with Jamaican food. Guys just eat the Jamaican. Jamaican food. And she was like, I'm gonna let you eat that Jamaican food, and you're not gonna be able to eat nothing else. So you came and I ate all the rice and peas.

[A]

And you was passionate.

[B]

Because I knew that was. That was my last meal. I knew I wasn't gonna have nothing. So they put me on insulin drip, did all the stuff. Here's the problem. I'm asking these people, okay, so what do I do? What do I eat? What do I. What do I do? I literally asked the nurse when they were about to set, let me go. Because I was in there for two days. I was like, so what do I do? She was like, you just got to manage it. What does that mean?

[A]

Right?

[B]

What does that mean?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so imagine you just finding out that you have diabetes. Don't know which type. They saying type two could be type one. You ask the nurse, hey, how do I. What do I do? She said, you just gotta manage it. You ain't told me nothing about no endocrinologist. You ain't told me nothing about no meal plans. You haven't taught me anything. So guess what? I go home ignorant. Yeah, you leave. You had to fly out cause you had an event. Okay.

[A]

In New York.

[B]

Yeah, they sent me home with metformin. Metformin is a pill for type 2 diabetes that helps people who have insulin resistance. They send me home with a Metformin. You leave. I'm trying not to eat carbs. So I'm, like, eating, like, you know, beans. I had a little bit of beans. I had some rice, some onions. I'M trying to eat healthy, but I'm pricking my finger and my sugar keeps going up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All I know is now I'm in the 500th again. Why? Because you sent me home without insulin. Because you don't realize that I'm actually type one.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. Megan Jordan came over. Ashley came over. We ended up going to urgent care. Urgent care was like, hey, you probably gotta go back to the er. I don't know why they sent you home. They sent me to the ER. My sugar was in the 600s. They sent me back there and I was in DKA again. And so I was in hospital total four days. Come to find out I am type one diabetic, which is an autoimmune disease, which means that my body randomly or just decided to attack my pancreas. So my pancreas no longer produces any insulin. Why is insulin necessary? Because anytime you eat carbs or sugars, it puts glucose in your bloodstream. The insulin is like a bus. The insulin takes the sugar, takes the glucose, and puts it into your organs so that you have energy. But if you have no insulin, then all of that sugar is in your bloodstream. If that sugar is in your bloodstream, it makes your blood thick and it creates ketones, which makes your blood acidic. And so no longer your organs aren't getting any energy. And so that's why people's fingers start falling off and all the type of stu. And your blood is acidic. And so that is why people die. That is why people go into comas. So that was the state that I was in because again, they sent me home without actually doing due diligence of knowing what I needed.

[A]

Yeah, we stopped going to the hospital because it just wasn't.

[B]

Oh, they won't ever see me again. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And by the grace of God, we. We were able to get some real, you know, diagnosis and doctors.

[B]

And this is why. Yeah, one of my nurses, because I was praying, I was like, I don't know what to do with it. I don't know anything about this. And one of my nurses actually trained in a diabetic facility. And so her whole shift was her educating me about everything. And I was like, this is the Lord's kind, like, everything from my pancreas, what to eat, the blood pricks, what not to do, da, da, da, da, da. And so. So when I. She was like, my goal is to make sure that you leave informed.

[A]

That's good.

[B]

You know what I'm saying? And so shout out to that nurse, like, when I. When I Left, I knew I had a sense of what to do, you know what I'm saying? And then the Lord connected me with an endocrinologist. And now.

[A]

Yeah, I have a. Yeah, I think, you know, I mean, that story, it's beautiful because, you know, I think it's just a testament to how much the Lord's hand was on you, even when we were in Australia, coming back using your mom. And we just see that a lot of times that the Lord allows things to happen for many reasons, but he never said that things would happen. But the evidence of him being with you is so clear, and that is the promise that he's with us. And so we thought we could have a conversation based on what, what you went through about Christian suffering and, you know, and why God allows it and what. What is God trying to accomplish because of that? And I think the first question I would have for you is in this trial, in this, in this season, you kind of, you know, got a hold of it now, and you, you, you. You live with it for a while now and, and manage it. Well, kudos to you. But what have you learned and what, what do you think God was trying to produce in you by allowing you to go through something like that?

[B]

This Valentine's Day, the UPS Store certified packing experts are helping pack and ship all the ways we can from the lovey WXOXO gifts gifts for your Galentine's gal pal, even pet gifts for doggy dearest. When you ship UPS Air at the UPS Store, your items arrive on time or your money back, guaranteed at no extra cost, exclusively at the UPS Store US retail locations. Send your Valentines on time at the UPS Store. Visit theupsstore.com airguaranty for full details. Terms and conditions apply. Uh, well, I think there's a lot of mystery to God's dealings. You know, I think even when you read the book of Job, there aren't all these answers. It's just that, you know, God does what he wants to do. And I think a general truth is always that God, when it comes to his church, when it comes to his children, he is always doing good, even when it hurts. And so I think having that conviction anchors you when you don't have all the answers. I think even when people were like, oh, my God, I'm so sorry that you have this, and it was just like, I don't even think I ever cried about it. I cried in the hospital because it was a lot. But I think afterwards, it's like, I think I've Become so used to things being hard. This is just another hard.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm pretty convinced that God just wants me to have a lot of thorns. Because when Paul talks about his thorns, we don't know what his thorns are. Right? And that gives us some type of freedom to insert our potential thorns in there. You know what I'm saying? And so his thorn is to make him weak so that he would rely on God's strength. In my weakness, he is made strong. And so I. His grace is sufficient for me. And so I think for me to be physically weak puts me in a position to be spiritually weak, not spiritually weak. To be spiritually strong, it humbles me. It makes me dependent on people. Like, we're over here planning this concert, and I'm having to think about how to make sure that I don't go into hypoglycemia, because I'm being super active on stage where I might. My sugar might drop too low. So I have to not just think about the lyrics and not just think about the band and not just think about the ministry, but also my body and how I can. How I can serve the people, but also be healthy at the same time. I didn't have to think about that before. And so, yeah.

[A]

One of the things I've always been encouraged by you is I think watching you during the duration of our marriage, it's very apparent that you truly believe that God uses everything, that he doesn't allow anything to go to waste. And because of that, like, when things happen to you, it's encouraging that you don't go into, like, grumbling and complaining.

[B]

A lot of the times I complain.

[A]

Not a lot of times I'm talking about. Especially when it comes to, like, doing the will of the Lord. For example, I remember when your sight kind of went bad in Australia. And in my mind, I'm panicking more than you. I'm like, my wife freaking going blind. She got a. You know what I'm saying? And I remember us being in the back, and you just before you was diagnosed with the diabetes, before you knew what it was, you was like, I feel like the Lord is trying to strengthen my dependency in him. And we prayed that the Lord would use you. And the fact that the Lord used you that night in that way when you couldn't see, it was kind of like, oh, this bucko is really walking by faith and not by sight, you know? And so I've always really been encouraged by that. And I think. Think it kind of speaks to the Broader topic of what we're talking about, which is why the Lord allows suffering to happen. I think one of the reasons why is because he wants to increase our dependency on him.

[B]

And I think. I think a part of. I have a very strong conviction around the sovereignty of God.

[A]

Break it down.

[B]

He controls, he dictates. He is just sovereign over all things. I mean, even when you look at the story of Job, Satan could not touch Job without God's permission. So I think that conviction that God is not only sovereign, because if he's sovereign but not holy, that's a pretty scary situation. But he's sovereign and holy, meaning in his sovereignty, he is good. In his sovereignty, he is wise. In his sovereignty, he is merciful, merciful and compassionate. And so I think having that conviction that God is both sovereign and good kind of always makes me say, okay, what is it that you want me to see and learn, know about you? What is it that you're trying to produce in me for good by allowing this?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think sovereignty is a conundrum to some people and a source of angst for some people and dare I say, blasphemy for some people, because they ask the question of why would God allow that? Why would God allow these people, people to suffer? Why would God allow this evil? And it's like 1 Romans 9, I believe, speaks to the fact that, you know, the clay cannot say to the potter anything like he. He can do what he wants with his clay. That's a reality. But there's also the reality that. Have you ever considered that if God does away with all evil, then God has to do away with you? And so we haven't considered that the way he is also managing the world is merciful. You know what I'm saying? Like. Like. Like even when you look at the book of Job at the end, it's a reason why God responds to Job with all that he does in creation. It's like if I. If the deers do this and the sky does that and the oceans do that. If I am wise over all of creation and organize and get according to my will and my way, why don't you think I know what I'm doing with you?

[A]

Yeah, that's good.

[B]

I know what I'm doing.

[A]

That's good.

[B]

The whole world is running well. Not well, but the whole world is organized in such a way because I'm over it. And so I just said a whole lot. But I just. I think that conviction, you have to work through that or you will not have this Stamina, I think, to deal with life.

[A]

That's beautiful. That's beautiful. Because I think, you know, when you look at the story of Job, you know, sometimes I think our first inclination is to be like, I know this is God's sovereignty, but this is the same pair. It doesn't seem fair at all.

[B]

Fair is an interesting word.

[A]

Fair is a very interesting word. But we think about this man who all 12 of his kids were killed in an instance by a great wind. You know, all of his livestock and his cattle was gone. So that means all of his bread, all of his money.

[B]

Where is Job at?

[A]

Left. You know, his homeboys came back and was like, man, you must have made God mad. You know what I'm saying? Because he had balls on his body, clothes sticking to his skin. His wife even told him to curse God and d. God. And we see that God did all of that for a reason. And I remember years ago, and this, you know, this is when I sounded a lot like a lot of the people online when they hear about your diabetes, they be like, don't you believe the Lord for healing? That's of the devil and all of this and stuff like that. I. I remember reading this book by Matt Chandler, called it Explicit Gospel. And I. I think I said this before, but I read a line in this book and. And the. The line said, the. The foremost desire is not our salvation, but yet the glory of his own name. And I read that, and I felt the way. And the reason why I felt the way is because I really thought that the gospel was about how the Lord wants to give me everything that I want and not allow me to suffer and not allow me to go through things if I just place my faith in Jesus. But really God really wants to get glory out of my life. And me being creation, I cannot pick and choose how he decides to get that glory out of my life. In the same way, Job could not decide, but could not choose how God chose to get glory out of his life. You know, and so I think when we think about God's sovereignty in that way, I think it shifts the way we think, because it's like man, like God does what he wants for his glory first and foremost.

[B]

Know. Yeah, I think what's helpful is Job. Chapter one, it says there was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job, and that man was blameless and upright, one who feared God and turned away from evil. But then In Job, chapter 42, Job says, Hear and I will speak. I will question you, and you make it known to me I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear, but now my eyes see you. And so from chapter one to chapter 42, there's a lot of pain. But what that pain produces is greater sight in the God that He already knew.

[A]

That's good.

[B]

And so I think to really add to what you're saying is that a part of what glorifies God is not always the deliverance from pain. What glorifies God is that you know him and therefore glorify him in the pain. You know what I'm saying? Because what greater testimony is there to a world about God when you suffer and don't complain? When you go through something and you still trust, what it does is it lifts people's vision of God and say, huh? What is it about him that they're able to endure that and still smile? What is it about him that they love him and don't turn to vices when things get difficult? What it does is it gives people a vision of the glory of God. There had to be some type of. Of curiosity when people saw Jesus on the cross not saving himself. They had to have some type of like, oh, he must really love His Father. So what is His Father worth? His Father must be worth something that he is enduring this pain and then praying for, folks, you know what I'm saying?

[A]

But not. But not only that. First Peter 12, I think we did teach the text on this podcast years ago on this passage, but just remind y' all about Christian suffering. First Peter 4:12, it says, says, beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you as though something is strange has happened to you. But rejoice insofar as you share in Christ's sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed. And so it's like, no, not only are what you're saying is right, but we're actually sharing in the sufferings of Christ. It's like, I don't think that we go through anything as God's children and not like. And so, like, if the Lord was persecuted and slandered and you're going through persecution and slander now, you can identify with the Lord in a way that you couldn't identify with him before.

[B]

Correct?

[A]

The Lord suffered physical harm to his body and ailment. And, you know, and now you can identify with your Lord or Savior in a way that you couldn't identify with him before. And so I think that if we look at it as no I'm actually sharing in the sufferings of Christ. And because I'm sharing in the sufferings of Christ, Christ, I can actually see him more because I can relate to him more.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so I think that's any relationship. And it's like, we want, like, we, we, we can look at the, the path that God has taken of pain, suffering, loneliness, and ask the Lord, why are you allowing me to go through it? And the Lord is like, you don't want to know me more like, like you, like, you don't. You don't become close with any friends on this earth and get acquainted with what they've been through, and you not feel that. Right. And so I think that even when we go through trials and tribulations and suffering, like, our friends enter into that suffering as well, and we kind of feel like they're in it with us. And so how much more the Lord. And so I think that's what it means when it says, but rejoice, don't be surprised when the suffering comes, but rejoice because you're, you, you're not going through anything that Christ hadn't, Hasn't gone through, and he could relate to you. And more importantly, now you can relate to him, you know, so.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, that's my answer to your question.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I want to, I want to ask you this. What do you say to the people who say you don't have, you're, you're still going through this because you don't have the faith to ask God to allow this thing to go. Like, if you just had a little faith the size of a mustard seed, this thing can leave and it'd be gone. Because you get a lot of that. You get a lot of people attacking people with mental illnesses saying you don't have faith. Physical ailments, you don't have faith. God wants to heal you. And they look at it like, like, no, this thing is of the devil. God just wants to heal you. This is an attack of the, of the enemy. How do, how do you respond to those people?

[B]

Yeah, I've had. It was interesting when I made the post about diabetes on Instagram. The amount of people that text and message, like, you know, God is a healer. He can heal you. Amen. Don't. Somebody was like, don't speak that, that over your life or something like that. I'm like, speak what? Speak.

[A]

It's here.

[B]

Speak what? Like, it's my pancreas don't work. So I don't think I'm speaking Anything. It's just. It's. I'm just communicating what's actually happening. And I. I'll. I'll affirm the perspective and framework that God can do all things. I affirm that people are like, no, God is a healer. He is. Yeah. God is fai. Faithful. He is able to do exceedingly and abundantly above according to the power of God that worketh in us. What I don't like is the lack of tension that says he can, but if he doesn't, I'm still gonna pray for you. Let me. Let me give you a text. Is Daniel, chapter 3, verse 17. If this be so, our God, whom we serve, is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace. So God take Daniel. What is it? Not Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abiligo. He can take them out of the fire if he so chooses. He is strong enough to do that. He is able to do that. His hands are big enough for that work. But it also says, and he will deliver us out of your hand, oh, King. But if not, be it known to you, o King, that we will not serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up. I think the faith that God is calling for is the faith that says he can. And if he doesn't, I'm still gonna trust him. You know what I'm saying? And so I think in some of the conversations around, healing is just like your faith is only strong if you believe God for healing. But what about the person who says, even if he doesn't, I'm still going to worship.

[A]

That's real faith.

[B]

Even if he doesn't love him. That's not unbelief. That's actually a balanced faith that says he is Lord and king, so he has the right and the autonomy to execute his will in my however he sees fit. And so it might not be. It might actually be a curse for me to be healed because it wouldn't make me humble. You understand what I'm saying? Like, there are certain circumstances that I need to stay in because I'm too proud.

[A]

You better teach us.

[B]

I'm too proud. Because we think healing of the body is God's greater concern and not healing of the soul. God cares about the circumcision of our hearts.

[A]

Oh, come on. Come on now. That's so good.

[B]

So there are some circumstances that God gonna keep me in because he wants me to change.

[A]

And I don't even know if this makes sense. That's so good, because I think. I think and I. And I get It, Right. Because I think that we are finite human beings living in this earthly reality. And so a lot of our thinking is human, right? Oh, yeah, we're, we're, we're, we're sick in his life.

[B]

Been a dude.

[A]

And so we're, we're assuming that God wants to heal in us his life. But we have to understand that when we read the words of Scripture, heal everything. Heal everything in his life. We have to understand that when we read the words of scriptures, we're reading the words of an eternal being, not a being that's constricted by time, space and matter like we are. And so to automatically think when the Lord says, by my stripes you will be healed, means that you will be healed on this earth. It's unrealistic. But he's an eternal God, right? Ultimately, the ones who put their faith in Jesus will be healed eternally, like for eternity. If we place our faith in Jesus, there will be no more sickness, no more pain. And if he chooses right to heal on this earth for his glory, he'll do that. And so I think a lot of times we just kind of leave out according to his will when it comes to healing because we're so. We're just so human. You know what I'm saying? So I get it. I get that tension because I think if any of our loved ones get sick, I think the natural thing for us to do is to pray for healing. But to automatically assume that a person doesn't have faith and that's the reason why they're not healed is to say, no. God is a genie that performs depending on how strong our faith is and not according to his will. I just think that it's unbalanced because.

[B]

It'S unbiblical sicknesses, inconvenience. And that's a part of what we want deliverance from.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is the inconvenience of things, the pain in our bodies, the suffering that it puts in restraints that it puts on us and others. Like, there's a lot of stuff that comes with suffering and sickness, you know what I'm saying? But it's like, like I think we need to think more highly of God's ways where it's like it's in that place where you need me. It's in that place. And so because you need me, then you're actually depending on me in a particular way that not only sanctifies you, but clarifies your vision of me. And so it's the clarity of vision that also gives you joy in the Suffering that's so great. And it's not as if God won't reward, reward you. So because we got to bring that up too. It was for the joy that was set before him that he endured, despising the shame. When you look at revelation like, you see that there are rewards for what. Like there is nothing that you will give up for Christ that he will not reward you in eternity. And so it's not as if we're suffering in vain. Don't grow weary in doing good, you know what I'm saying? Like God sees you and will give you power. And one thing that Johnny Eareckson Tata talks about about is how her suffering has increased her empathy for her neighbor. So we can, I think, lean and have a bent that is self centered, that says, oh man, I'm God got me going through all of this and da da, da, da. But what if the comfort by which you are comforted helps you comfort other people?

[A]

That's good.

[B]

So what if like I have an eye towards autoimmune diseases that I've never had. I have a concern for, for the education of nurses and doctors about this disease that I have never considered. I be on TikTok looking at babies. I got diagnosed with type one at 36. It's babies that, from the, like, they have that now. They got pumps on their arm now, you know what I'm saying? Their parents are putting insulin shots in them now. And I'm like, I have an increase in love and care for my neighbor because of the lot that God has for me.

[A]

That's good.

[B]

And so I think, consider also the ways that God, God has, is training you to love people better because of the pain that he's allowing you to.

[A]

Would you say, Would you say. And I, and I'm just really, I'm just really excited to see what type of ministry the Lord birthed out of you because I, I don't know if.

[B]

There will be a. Yeah, I, I.

[A]

Think, I think it is, I think.

[B]

It is my mom talking about you gonna be a spokesperson for Taiwan. No, ma'.

[A]

Am.

[B]

No. I am making disciples of my.

[A]

But I quote quickly want to say this too. That's beautiful, babe. No, seriously, I quickly want to say this too. As far as the thinking that a lot of people have that man, this must be, you know, something you did or, you know, you don't have faith and yada yada yada. This is something that is not really new under the sun.

[B]

What is faith?

[A]

Faith? I think it's hope. It's Hope. That's why it says faith is a substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. So I think it's looking for to God doing things on your behalf. I think it's a. And that's the reason why when people's hope is destroyed, the faith is destroyed. Because you can't have, you know, hope without faith. But this is not new under the sun. I talk about John 9 a lot. It's probably my second favorite passage of all time. But in John 9, when the man, when Jesus healed the man of blindness.

[B]

You might not interrupt. Interrupt you? Yeah, because I asked you about faith. Because we keep throwing that word around, but it's like if we don't actually know what faith is.

[A]

Okay, you want to explain it?

[B]

Yeah, because faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Like you said, faith is hope or faith. Faith isn't hope. Hope is involved in faith. Right. And so hope says, I trust God for the future. Future. That, that's hope. And I, I think I just want people to hope in the nature of God, to have faith in the nature of God and how trusting who he is can actually inform what we trust him for. And what I mean by that is I'm gonna say what I said in the beginning. If God is good.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If God is wise, if God is the creator of all things, then it's like there's times where I'm like, lord, I'm very honest with him, or try to be Lord, I really want this to happen. I really want you to lift this. I really want you to deliver me from this. Because I know that you can. But let me also pray in the direction of my heart wants what it wants, but I want to want what you want me from. For me. Right. And so I'm not just praying from deliverance from the thing, I'm also praying for deliverance from me. Because I don't want me to get in the way of me and you. Does that make sense? And so like, like widen your prayers in such a way where your faith is saying no. If you can do all things, then you can do all things. And if you decide not to, then you obviously know what's better for me. And I think that would anchor us one to not be so frustrated when God says, says no. Yeah, I think that would anchor us to not be self righteous when people don't pray or hope in the way you think they should. You know what I'm saying? So I don't want people to say, I'm not like, are you saying we shouldn't have faith for healing? That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying have faith that says if he does or if he doesn't, I'm still going to trust him. I just feel like we have to, like, drill that into some of our.

[A]

Friends, talk about how. How much our desire to be in control gets in the way of that. Because I think. I think that we control people. And I think innately all of us want to be God. We want to be our own gods, and we have control issues. Because I think it's scary to say, lord, I put my whole hope.

[B]

That.

[A]

You know what you're doing with my life when. Especially when you're faced with something like diabetes, like, I think it's easier sometimes. It's like living in a reality that's not real reality sometimes is more comforting to people to say, I know God is going to heal me in his life than it is to say, I know God knows what he's doing and whatever he wants to do. You know what I'm saying? It's ultimately, you know what I'm saying? And I think so, like, how. How much. How much of it do you think it's control and how much of it do you think it's kind of just ignorance?

[B]

I think it's all of it. Because I want to be empathetic of people who have really serious conditions. You know, Like, I imagine that if one of our children got diagnosed with cancer, there would be a clinging to the reality of healing that is significant, you know what I'm saying? So I want to be sensitive to. There are certain intensities and dimensions of suffering that I can't even identify with that would color how you approach this topic. So I think some of it is just pain. It's like, lord, please. You know what I'm saying? I think it's the entitlement that I'm after so, not the legitimate zeal and frustration and. And just weariness that comes with loving somebody or caring for somebody that's sick and all the stuff that that's not. It's the. It's the feeling as if you have the right to claim healing, the right to. What's the word? Force. God's hand, I decree and declare healing over your body and da, da, da. And it's like, okay, I just feel like we gotta kind of come to God with humility in the way we talk to them, you know what I'm saying? And so I. I do think that Control for some people is a thing. And again, it's control because we're addicted to ease. And so what we do want to do is control our circumstances such a way where we live within all the things that happen to us in an easy way. And I was listening to this, this lecture where the teacher was saying a lot of our problems in life is because we are impatient with where eschatology is actually placed. What that means is, esch is end times. And so ultimately, a lot of us just want heaven now. And so a lot of our theology, a lot of our frustration, a lot of our addictions, because we are trying to bring heaven to today when that's not how it's set up. And so there is pain today, there is suffering today, there is sickness today, there is that. It won't always be that way, but it is right now. But so in the meantime, we can't bring that here, but we can, like, we do have God with us. Does it make sense, what I'm saying?

[A]

Yeah, it makes a lot of sense.

[B]

It's like, it's like, yeah, because even.

[A]

When the, when, when the scripture talks about suffering, it all, like, it often talks about suffering in this present day, in this present time, but it immediately tells you to look forward.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Right. And so the sufferings of this present time is not worthy to be compared to the glory that shall be revealed in us in Christ Jesus.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

And so I think a lot of times sometimes we're just not heavenly minded.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Right. And so kind of what you just said, like, I, I think God just wants us to look to heaven more.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He wants us to be, he wants us like, because if, if, if, and, and that's probably why we not. I just had an epiphany because I, I, if I'm honest, I, I, I've fallen in that, that we all do. Yeah. Like wanting heaven now. And that's probably why I don't look forward to heaven as much. You know what I'm saying? And so if you just accept the fact that we live in a fallen world, a broken world, a sinful world, and then God is gonna heal sometimes, and he's not gonna heal sometimes, but ultimately what he wants us to look to is eternity with him. I think it'll change our perspectives. And what I'm not trying to say is that we shouldn't be in expectation for God to move on this earth.

[B]

Oh, yeah, right.

[A]

Biggest, because we see that, like going back to John 9, like, God healed that man because he said because he was blind so that the glory can be revealed in Him Right on earth. But it's so many people that Jesus walked past and he didn't heal.

[B]

Correct. Right. There's a lot of people.

[A]

There's a lot of people that he didn't heal. And it wasn't because of their faith. It's just because God in His sovereignty chose not to do it. Right. And so I think that we just have to change our perspective.

[B]

I'm trying to gather my thoughts because I think our perspective, perspectives, if someone is not listening, well, can sound pessimistic a little bit. Like, so you saying God just want me to be in pain and to suffer and to be sick and just trust that he'll do it in this time. Like it can sound like. I think people can hear it and feel like it sounds not hopeful or light hearted.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that I don't want to come across that way. I think, think. I just think when I look at the life of Jesus, when I look at the life of Moses, when I look at the life of Paul, even Paul in particular, when you read the book of Philippians, there is, there is. Paul is going through great trial and great difficulty. He is in jail, yet at the same time he has joy. And so there is the possibility that you can be in pain and have joy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There is the reality that you can go through things and have a satisfaction in God. That is just ridiculous. And what if it's the circumstance and what if it's the thing that gives you access to that joy?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know what I'm saying? So I, I think I just want us to broaden our understanding of what God might be doing through these sicknesses and the things that he's allowed us to go through.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that's, that's beautiful. And I, I think ultimately, ultimately what I would want people to hear from me is I think what the Lord wants us, and this is very simple, but I think what the Lord ultimately wants us to have is more of Him. Like, and this is the reason why we have to understand that when the Bible says that God is good, everything that he allows us to go through, it is ultimately to give, to give us more of the, of the good thing, which is Himself. And so everything that we go through, he's not doing it because you have some secret sin in your life. He's not doing it because you didn't pray enough. Like, he's doing it because he's trying to reveal more of him to you because he knows that's the best thing for you.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

And I think that if we think about it that way, is that God does everything for the good of those who love him and who are called according to his purpose.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

And so even if he allows you to go through a suffering, it is for your good. When the Bible says that we can do all things, we can do all things through Christ who strengthen us, it talks about even the hard things. Right.

[B]

Can you speak to. I think it's helpful to acknowledge how God feels about suffering, suffering and even sickness that's caused by being sinned against. Because I can anticipate. What do you mean?

[A]

I'm sorry.

[B]

I can anticipate somebody hearing us talk all about this and being like, so when I was molested, that was good for me.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

When I, you know, when my partner gave me a sexually transmitted disease, you're saying God used that to humble me. I think we have to address. Address that. And I feel like you've addressed that before at, like, a show you did with Ezekiel once.

[A]

Yeah. Because I think the reality is, is that we live in a fallen world, a broken world. You live in a world where you're gonna have to do life with other broken human beings who are gonna sin against you. And I think that when we think about God's sovereign sovereignty, God never promised us that bad things will not happen to us, but he does show us in the scriptures that he's sovereign over all bad things that happen. Right. And so that I think. I think trusting in a God who's not sovereign over evil is actually the scariest thing.

[B]

Hello?

[A]

Like. Like, so. So. So I think we have to look at it that's that way. Like, God do allow things to happen because he knows that in his sovereignty, he can work out all things for the good of those who love him and who called according to his purpose. I'll give you a prime example. Your life. You know what I'm saying? I look up, I think about your life often, and I think about your molestation, but I think about how the.

[B]

Book, gay girl, good guy, terrible, terrible, terrible boy.

[A]

Right.

[B]

We shouldn't laugh about that.

[A]

I'm trying not to laugh at crazy stuff because you're very.

[B]

I just feel like I can make fun of my. It's going left. Go ahead.

[A]

No, you can't.

[B]

I'm not making fun of it. I'm just saying it was terrible, ruined my life.

[A]

But no, listen. But listen, though.

[B]

How dare him.

[A]

It didn't though, babe. Because, listen. Do you know how many people have been Blessed and healed and delivered through your testimony that God used. And, and that's what I mean, that all things do, like, literally all things do work out for the good of those who love God and who are called according to his purpose. And so I think God does things ultimately for his glory. And also he brings. He wants to bring healing and, you know, restoration to our. To our souls as well. But I think that he uses all things for his glory. And I think that. So just trusting, to answer your question, trusting that God is sovereign over all things, I think shifts our perspective. Because what we don't want to live. We don't want to live in a world where we believe in purposeless evil, like a, A, A world where God just allows things to happen to us for no purpose. That's actually scary. But if there's a purpose to my soul suffering, now we see that. Now we see the greater good of suffering. We see that God does it for his glory. He does it for my good. Whether I'm doing bad in this season, it's for his glory, it's for my good. Whether I'm prospering in this season, it's for his glory, it's for my good. And I think that's. I think thinking like that helps shifts our hearts and our minds to know that whatever I'm going through, even if I don't see it, it's all to me for the Lord's glory and ultimately for the Lord. My goodness, you know.

[B]

Yeah. I would add that having a solid theology informed by scripture on God's justice and vengeance is helpful.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Right. So it isn't as though, if God had allowed sovereignly for me to be sinned against in particular ways, whether that's through molestation, whether that's through fatherlessness, whether that's through abuse, whether that's through betrayal, whether that's through slander, whether that, like whatever the, the offense is, it isn't as though God is up in the sky on his throne. Like, yes, they are going through something, because I'm gonna get glory. God grieves sin.

[A]

Yeah, he does.

[B]

God grieves abuse. God grieves that stuff, and he's angry at it too. There is, There is wrath being stored up. So it isn't as it. Like, I don't want us to hear, oh, God is sovereign and doing all things for his glory. As if God takes joy in evil, as if God takes joy and wickedness. That's not true. And so I think what you can anchor your faith and your hope in and Be frustrated.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Be confused and bring that to the Lord. Scripture gives us so much room to say this stuff to God. We got lamentations, we got Psalm 88, we got Jesus on the cross. We got, we got a lot of evidence in scripture of people going through stuff and like, why are you allowing this? Where are you at? What is going on? Going on and allowing the Holy Spirit to come in at that point and reshape your perspective so that you trust him and don't blaspheme him in your questioning.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now I. So I think the vengeance piece and the justice piece says one day God will make all wrongs. Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's why I got beef with people that don't believe in hell because they think that their view of justice and all of that is so like, like, yeah, ethical. Like, you know what I'm like to do away with hell is somehow like the like top tier human thing. But it's like, do you realize that if we do away with hell, then every single person that was a part of the Holocaust, that didn't get some type of penalty on. Of it on earth, they just, they just get to walk away. That every person who's raped a child or every person who's abused a person, or every person who's killed somebody who had no penalty, no exposure, no consequence, they literally got away with it. It is Hel that tells me God is going to deal with all injustice, all sin, all wickedness against me and against others. To me that says, oh, bet. Yeah, you care.

[A]

Yeah. That's why the gospel is so beautiful.

[B]

Tell me about it.

[A]

The gospel is so beautiful because it teaches us that, that we all deserve hell. We all deserve damnation. But for those who place their faith in Jesus. Right, right. It is now his righteousness that has been imputed unto us. And through the life, death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, we are forgiven. But to your point, I got beef with them too, because it's like, bro, you think Hitler just got out, like he just in the dirt because if.

[B]

He didn't repent, if that's the case, then suicide functioned as a deliverance.

[A]

It's like I was about to smack you with scripture.

[B]

No, I'm saying that means if, if, if I can sin and sin and sin and sin and sin and kill myself and escape the consequences when in reality, according to scripture, he, he, he, he delivered himself into the hands of the judge.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that gives me hope that every single thing that you did wrong on earth, you have to pay for it. You have to pay for it. And so I, I think knowing that vengeance is mine, saith the Lord, can kind of to comfort me in my affliction. But it also, I think you're talking.

[A]

About, I didn't mean to cut you off in your affliction as it pertains.

[B]

To being sinned again, if you're sinned against.

[A]

Yeah, right, right, right.

[B]

You know, because I know people who have sexually transmitted diseases because their partner didn't tell them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know what I'm saying? You have people who have been under crazy and wild abuse who can hear God gets glory out of my suffering and think that God is not vengeful against the people who caused you to suffer.

[A]

This is the reason why, I'm sorry if I stray off, just reel me back in. But this is the reason why I think it's so important for us to understand why God tells us to pray for our enemies.

[B]

Because it's funny how this conversation is becoming about. But it's necessary, but it's true.

[A]

Because it's like if I belong to God, God is saying this person caused some type of affliction, ailment, gave you a sexually transmitted disease, molested you or whatever. But because I'm an eternal God, you have to understand, understand that you're going to spend eternity with me. If nobody prays for them, they're going to spend eternity in hell. Right. And so when we think about God's.

[B]

Justice, what if you want them to. No, I'm not, I'm not saying for.

[A]

Me, I'm just, yeah, yeah, I, I.

[B]

I think I want to minister to that person. Like, I want to go to hell. I ain't going to pray for them.

[A]

Yeah, I think, I think, I think we should start studying eternity because it's.

[B]

Like, you look like a dad.

[A]

Like, no, seriously, I don't seriously start studying, like, and just start meditating on what forever is like because, you know, and I thought about this. Like, I thought about this about the man who killed my uncle. That man, I didn't love nobody as much as I loved that dude at that time of my life.

[B]

Your uncle, my uncle.

[A]

And somebody like, literally, like in the blink of an eye, took him away from me. Now, you know, not only did I want him to die, but I was like, man, I hope he burned in hell. This, I wasn't, I wasn't a Christian, you know what I'm saying? I was unbeliever at this time. But as a Christian, you know, when you start to think about this eternal God who like, The Bible calls him the ancient of days. And we will live with him. Like 10,000 years will go by and I will still be with the, the Lord. Like to think about somebody, your worst en, your worst enemy, spending eternity separated from a holy and a righteous God and I. And people be thinking hell is scary because the devil is there. Hell is scary because God is there.

[B]

God is there.

[A]

Right. And so, so, so, so to think about somebody experiencing, experiencing God for all of eternity, absent from his peace, peace, absent from his joy, absent from his love, absent from his forgiveness, absent from his peace. And all you are experiencing is the wrath of God for all of eternity. Yeah, like if you meditate on that, that'll make you pray for your, your worst, your worst enemies.

[B]

I think so.

[A]

Because I, I think, I think there is nothing that can happen to us on the, on this earth that can want somebody to go to hell if we truly think about it. You know what I'm saying?

[B]

And so like especially being conscious of the gospel. Gospel, you know, a gospel conscious that says, man, I, I, what I want for them, I deserve too.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Right. And so, but God in His kindness has forgiven me and has made me his own and I don't deserve to be that. And so some of you, that, that's, and, and the Holy Spirit produces that compassion. You know what I'm saying? And so, but we just have to ask him, like, lord, help me have compassion on my enemies as I pray for them, those who have not loved me, honor, honored me. All the stuff I think I want to add to this conversation about trusting God's sovereignty as it relates to even being sinned against and the suffering that comes by way of that. By reminding ourselves that God has not called us to endure or experience anything that He Himself doesn't relate to.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Again, going back into sharing and the sufferings, but from a different angle because it's like the God of the universe, the God of all glory, the Creator of all things.

[A]

Things.

[B]

As long as humans have existed, God has always been sinned against. Always.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know what I'm saying?

[A]

There's not one moment he's not being.

[B]

Always being offended like he's always being. People talk crazy about him, lie on him, use his gifts, use their bodies, use their mind. You, like even everything we have is His. So he's being expressed, exploited. And so it's like God is, yeah, he, I think he understands on a completely different degree on what it is to be sinned against and yet comes to earth. Right. And yet dies on a cross. And yet prays for the people. And so that's to say that God not only empathizes with your weakness as it relates to temptation, but God also empathizes with your weakness on what it's like to bear up under suffering. Suffering that is in accord with the will of God. That's what Gethsemane was. And so I think meditating on the cross on all of that helps us to just kind of have a different perspective.

[A]

Meditating on the fact that God is not allowing you to go through something that he hasn't first went through.

[B]

Like, he is on a completely different.

[A]

Degree, but also meditating on the fact that he's truly innocent.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he's truly blameless.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Cause a lot of us feel like we've been wronged against. And in some instances, we were innocent, legit.

[B]

When I was five. I shouldn't have been.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But we're not holistically innocent. Right. Right. And so, like, he. There's no bad in him. And not only was he sinned against and betrayed on when he came to the earth, but even to this day, to your point, he's. He's still, you know, read something. I want to ask you a question.

[B]

Go ahead.

[A]

I know some people can say, this sounds good. It sounds evil.

[B]

Easy. Oh, it ain't easy to.

[A]

Or you guys make it sound easy to say you should walk in forgiveness for somebody who has caused great suffering in life, you know, that, you know, you have a baby father who's caused you great grief. You have a father who didn't, you know, take care of you, abandon you, you know, and all of this. But, like, what does that practically look like? And I know you've talked about. About walking in forgiveness with people who've caused you, you know, suffering and pain, but, like, what does that practically look like?

[B]

You're gonna hate my answer if.

[A]

If it's an honest answer. Like, it's gonna be brief.

[B]

Even. Even.

[A]

Even if you don't say what it practically looks like. Like, what. What are some steps to help somebody move towards that type of forgiveness, especially forgiving somebody who's currently causing suffering in their life. Life right now.

[B]

I'm gonna say listen to our conversation with Yana link in bio. I'm gonna say, listen to our conversation with Jada Edwards Lincoln bio. I'm gonna say, listen to our conversation with Tony Collier after. I think those will give you all that you need.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And then next to that, again, I think meditation on the cross is a thing. And I'll just say One very, even getting therapy. I think it's helpful. But I think one small but significant process we can neglect is not just prayer, but a prayer of dependence that says the fruit of the Spirit is required for me to let this go, right? So I need love, I need patience, I need kindness, I need self control. All of that is required to do all the stuff. And it's like God is not calling us to grit and bear it. He's calling us to rely on him to produce in us all that's required to obey Him. And so I think just being very specific in our prayer, like, Holy Spirit, do this work in me?

[A]

Yeah, it's good, it's good.

[B]

I just wanted to read something, but it's not what I thought, where I thought it was, and I don't know where to find it.

[A]

And so I don't want to waste it.

[B]

About it was like in us talking about pain and sickness and suffering and being sinned against. Just again, looking at the life of Christ. And I'll just say it this way, I think when you look at his three years of ministry and just look at all that he went through and then consider the fact that, like, as he moves towards the end of his mission, things get rewarded worse, things get harder, things get more. But it's like he set his face like flint towards Jerusalem. Like he just kept moving in the direction of the will of God even as it got harder to do so. And then on that cross, you know, he's dealing with people blaspheming him and taunting him. And then he has to endure the wrath of God, you know what I'm saying? He is absorbing the wrath of God for the sins of the world. But then, then, then, then he says it's finished. He gives up the ghost, he goes in the grave and he rises with all power, you know, and the Bible says like that he was like, what, what's the Philippians verse? He, Something about. He was called Lord and oh, every knee will bow. And every time.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Every, every, every knee will bow under heaven, under earth. And every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is the greatest. Glory to God the father. Philippians 2.

[B]

Yeah, we're, we're, we're not going to be exalted as Lord, but we will be exalted. We're not going to be glorified as the Lord of heaven and glory, but we will get glory. And so I, I, I, we don't know how long we're going to be here. You understand what I'm saying? And so that glory set before us has to drive everything. It has to drive how we think about pain, has to drive how we think about sickness, has to drive how we think about our enemies. Has to drive. If it does not not we won't glorify him, nor will we have joy in the pain.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's those two perspectives that help us to let, like, we are here on a mission.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, that's.

[B]

And one day I'm trying to tell you, we just. We gonna be up there, be like, oh, I get it.

[A]

Yeah, I get it.

[B]

You knew what you were doing.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Talking about suffering often lets me know what encourages me because it reminds me that. That the Lord really wants to be our. Our hiding place. Because we're fragile beings affected by sin, affected by ailments. I mean, we're not really going to escape suffering in this world. Scripture tells us it's going to happen by some measure. Some of us are going to suffer greater in some areas than others. But the Lord does let us know. We can hide in him. And I love the scripture when it says that my life is hidden in Christ. And when Christ, who is my life, appears, then what? I appear with him also in glory. And so, like man, it lets us know that man, like in. On this earth, we're not going to escape suffering, but we do have a place. Because God sent his. His spirit to. To this earth. We can dwell with him now. We can hide in him now. We can commune with him now. And when he reveals his glory, in the end, he. We. We will be revealed with him. And so I think that's just always encouraging me to look towards glory in heaven to know that I'll. I'll be glorified with my. My Savior one day.

[B]

Cool. All right, bye.

[A]

Amen.

[B]

With the Perries is produced by the Perries with support from Amanda reed and Channing McBride. Video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley edited by the team at Tread Lively, Artwork by Hob and music by Swoop. Thank you for listening. Now go with go.