Discipling Kids in a Sexually Broken World With Laurie and Matt Krieg

Summary

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With The Perrys: Discipling Kids in a Sexually Broken World

Guests: Laurie and Matt Krieg
Episode date: October 20, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode of With The Perrys, hosts Jackie Hill Perry and Preston Perry sit down with Laurie and Matt Krieg, co-authors of Raising Wise Kids in a Sexually Broken World: A Gospel Centered Approach. They discuss what it means to disciple children in today’s sex-saturated culture, the pitfalls of purity culture, and practical gospel-centered ways to approach conversations about sexuality, gender, shame, and belonging. Drawing from their own experiences as parents and as professionals (Lori as a ministry leader and Matt as a therapist), the Kriegs offer insight, encouragement, and hands-on strategies for Christian parents and churches.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Gospel as the Foundation for Sexual Discipleship

• Laurie and Matt emphasize that children's approach to sexuality must start with the big-picture gospel: God created everything good, sin distorted it, and Jesus redeems and restores (16:19; 16:34).

  "The gospel is a theology of yes and of flourishing..." – Lori Krieg (16:19)

• Laurie contrasts this with purity culture, which often focused narrowly on rules without cultivating a proper understanding of the gospel and human flourishing (13:15; 15:46).

2. Critique and Consequences of Purity Culture

• Purity culture, as described by the Kriegs, centered on "don't do this, do that," promising a blessed life if rules were obeyed; it placed undue responsibility, particularly on women, for others’ sexual purity and often fueled shame (08:37).

  “Purity culture was really...based on don't do this. Do this, if you're good...you're gonna have an awesome marriage with perfect sex and perfect everything.” – Lori Krieg (08:37)

• Both men and women felt the effects, but in different ways—women were made responsible for men’s lust, while men were sometimes treated as unable to control themselves (08:05; 10:59).

3. Moving from Shame and Fear to Flourishing and Grace

• The Kriegs stress the need to avoid fear and shame in sexual discipleship. According to neuroscience and biblical wisdom, fear and shame shut down learning and openness.

  "Our brains literally cannot process data when we're living in fear and shame...the gospel does not begin within the beginning, sin distorted everything—it begins within the beginning, God created it good." – Lori Krieg (15:46)

• The message is that God provides pathways for restoration, not just condemnation (15:46; 16:19).

4. Practical Tools for Parenting

Early and Proactive Conversations

• Laurie and Matt encourage parents to become their children’s “anchoring bias”—the first and most formative voices on sex and the body (30:26).

  "Anchoring bias…it means the first place that we hear something is going to be the gold standard to which we compare everything else." – Lori Krieg (30:40)

• Open, honest talks about pornography should begin well before adolescence, as average first exposure is as young as 8 (28:48; 29:02).

Responding to Exposure

• First exposures to sexual content or pornography should be viewed as trauma, not as an opportunity for punishment; kids need gospel-centered, compassionate responses (36:46).

  "We don't discipline trauma because a child's brain cannot ever prepare themselves for what they see on that screen." – Lori Krieg (36:46)

• After repeated or willfully disobedient behaviors, loving boundaries with ongoing grace are recommended; but the first response should always focus on union, understanding, and safety (37:40).

5. Simplifying Big Theological Ideas for Kids

• The Kriegs share how they communicate gospel truths and conversations about sexuality to kids at different developmental stages:
  • With young children, they use simple language and draw on daily feelings of need or lack (22:12–24:09).
  • Discussions are framed through belonging, union, and need, always pointing back to Jesus as the one who fulfills our ultimate needs (24:09; 25:41).

6. Casting Vision for Both Marriage and Singleness

• The Kriegs are intentional about offering children a robust gospel vision for both marriage and singleness, not idolizing marriage as the only path to fulfillment (45:31; 46:37).

  "Marriage and singleness are the modes we live out the mission to advance God's kingdom." – Lori Krieg (47:19)

• Their family “mission statement”: The mission of God is to push back the darkness and usher in the light (45:53).

7. Addressing Gender, Identity, and Belonging

• They highlight that a key part of many gender struggles is a lack of belonging with one’s biological sex group. Instead of reinforcing narrow stereotypes, parents should affirm, "I love your version of boy/girl." (66:57)

  "All of them [kids wrestling with gender] have a story of not feeling like they belong with their biological sex group." – Lori Krieg (65:17)

• Both Kriegs emphasize affirming children in their unique expressions of gender, rooted in biology but not limited to social stereotypes (67:06–67:23).

8. Navigating LGBT Imagery and Questions in Culture

• Instead of ignoring or panicking over exposure to LGBT-related imagery or ads, use these moments as opportunities to calmly and simply articulate God’s design and heart—to give language, not loaded reactions (59:12–63:12).

  "We as parents need to help to bring that unformulated experience into the left brain. Give language. That's good. Now that's gonna calm them down." – Lori Krieg (59:22)

9. Modeling Discipleship as Imperfect Parents

• For parents who feel disqualified due to past sexual mistakes or family brokenness, the Kriegs urge confession, honesty, repentance, and faith in new beginnings (“face it and bring it to Jesus,” 56:09).

  "There's nothing so gloriously uncomfortable as accepting the love and grace of Jesus." – Lori Krieg (56:59)

• Your repentance and transparency, not your perfection, is what your children need modeled (57:41; 57:47).

10. Building Family Rhythms of Faith

• The Kriegs share how they cultivate spiritual habits, like reading short devotionals or scripture around breakfast, inviting even small children into prayer, gratitude, and learning to articulate what they’re hearing from God (41:03–42:48).

  “It's just that early exposure, that rhythm… Even Matt and I say what we heard in it.” – Lori Krieg (42:05)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Gospel and Wisdom:

  "The gospel is a theology of yes and of flourishing. It actually wakes up our brain to be able to receive the beauty of God's design for sex…" – Lori Krieg (16:19)

• On Shame and Healing:

  "Our brains literally cannot process data when we're living in fear and shame..." – Lori Krieg (15:46)

• On First Conversations about Porn:

  "I want to be their anchoring bias... The first place that we hear something is going to be the gold standard to which we compare everything else." – Lori Krieg (30:40)

• On Belonging and Gender:

  "All dads are supposed to be nurturing and I'm going to say all the time we say this: I love your version of boy." – Lori Krieg (66:57)

• On Parental Imperfection:

  "We don't, we, none of us need perfect parents. No, none of us need self-righteous parents either. We need parents that know what it's like to mess up, acknowledge it, confess and move forward so that they have a model of how to do that too." – Preston Perry (57:47)

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Notable Timestamps

• Why this book, and why now? – [05:20]
• What is/was purity culture? – [07:31]
• The pitfalls of purity culture – [08:37]
• How do you communicate the gospel to children of different ages? – [22:12]
• Talking to kids proactively about pornography – [29:02]; [30:26]
• Responding to first exposure to porn – [36:46]
• Cultivating a vision for singleness – [45:31]
• Navigating age-appropriate discipline, grace, and union – [35:44], [38:07]
• LGBT visuals and curiosity in the culture – [59:12]
• Gender, stereotypes, and belonging – [65:17]; [66:57]
• Encouragement for parents with broken pasts – [56:09]; [57:41]
• Modeling daily devotional habits as a family – [41:03]; [42:05]

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Practical Parenting Insights (Quick Reference)

• Start talking early and often: Don’t delay conversations about sexuality and gender; be the “anchoring bias” for your children.
• Lead with grace, not fear: Children in shame or fear mode can’t learn; communicate God’s original “yes” over mere lists of "no."
• Respond to exposure as trauma, not as willful rebellion: Especially the first time, children need comfort and compassion, not punishment.
• Give kids gospel and wisdom: Equip them to understand not just rules, but why God’s vision is good.
• Model confession and repentance: Kids need to see how Christians handle mistakes, not just hear about “perfect” standards.
• Break down stereotypes: Celebrate unique expressions of masculinity and femininity, rooted in God-given biology.
• Don't outsource discipleship: Use family worship, prayer, and honest dialogue; everyday rhythms matter more than curriculum.
• Create community: Don’t disciple kids in isolation; resource yourself and others, support each other, and pray together.
• Stay attuned to the Spirit: Pray for wisdom, expect guidance, and be open to God’s promptings in parenting moments.

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Resource Mentioned

• Book: Raising Wise Kids in a Sexually Broken World: A Gospel Centered Approach by Laurie & Matt Krieg
• Video Course: Raising Kids – Christian Sexuality (for parents of children 12 and under)
• Devotionals: “Thoughts to Make Your Heart Sing” (used in their own family)

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Closing Prayer Highlights

• Laurie prays for weary, worried parents to have courage, to feel God lifting the burden, and for children to experience gospel-centered discipleship that points not just to rules, but to flourishing in Jesus (78:16).

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This episode is packed with wisdom, candor, and hope for parents, caregivers, and church leaders who want to shepherd children in sexual and gender wholeness, rooting them deeply in the gospel and the love of Christ.

Transcript

[Preston Perry]

Foreign. Hey, y'. All. How are you? Hope you're blessed.

[Jackie Perry]

Hope you're happy.

[Preston Perry]

Hope you're good. Hope you're great. Hope you're even. If you're not happy, you might actually be really sad today.

[Jackie Perry]

I hope you brush your teeth today. If you're not, you know, handle that.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah. If you. If you're full of despair, I understand what that's like. Sometimes you just got to read Psalm 88, you know what I'm saying? And realize, like, hey, even David was sad. You know what I'm saying?

[Jackie Perry]

That was so random. But you read Psalms today.

[Preston Perry]

I did not. That might be the Holy Ghost, because sometimes we got it. I. I love how human the Bible is that I can. Have you ever read Psalm 88? Hold on. Let's take a second.

[Jackie Perry]

Oh, my goodness.

[Preston Perry]

Real quick. Real, real quick. Real, real quick.

[Jackie Perry]

Sometimes I feel like you don't want to get add.

[Preston Perry]

I don't. I am being led, I believe, by the Spirit. He said, I ain't gonna read the whole thing. Oh, Lord God of my salvation, I cry out day and night before you let my prayer come before you incline your ear to my cry. He's sad. For my soul is full of troubles and my life draws near to Sheol. I am counted among those who go down to the pit. I am a man who has no strength, like. Like one set loose among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave. You know how dramatic that is?

[Jackie Perry]

That is dramatic. But you know what I thought about how great of an apologetic. The. The intellectual and the theological. Honest. Honest. The Bible is like, David was very honest. He was like, I want to die.

[Preston Perry]

The end for sure.

[Jackie Perry]

And so, like, it's not sugarcoating anything.

[Preston Perry]

I love that it's not David. I'm sorry I don't lead y' all astray. But it's also like, this is a song that they singing. You get what I'm saying? Oh, Lord God of my salvation, I cry all day and night before you. Let my prayer come before you cloud your ear. My cry for my soul is full of trouble. Life draws near the shio. I am counted among those who go down to the pit. None of those CCM songs sound like that. None of them. All of them are joy, joy, happy, happy, happy. And it's just like, they're not even mirroring the. The. The Psalms half of the time.

[Jackie Perry]

So you're saying that we need more lament.

[Preston Perry]

We need more songs that give us space for our grief.

[Jackie Perry]

The Bible does give us room to say we need to learn how to properly lament in healthy ways.

[Preston Perry]

Life can be sad.

[Jackie Perry]

I'm sad.

[Preston Perry]

Lord, we serve a God who is a man of sorrows acquainted with grief. I don't know how we got there.

[Jackie Perry]

I don't know either, but I am very confused. I'm pretty sure it's helping somebody.

[Preston Perry]

I'm just saying, if you woke up today and you were sad and you were heavy and you were disheartened, don't think it's strange.

[Jackie Perry]

If you brush your teeth, you might feel better, though.

[Preston Perry]

And if you don't, it's okay. You know what I'm saying? I'm just saying, read the scriptures, know that even if the Lord, if the Holy Spirit inspired people to write their grief down, then that says that God is still with you in your grief.

[Jackie Perry]

That's actually.

[Preston Perry]

He's still with you in your depression. He's still with you in your sadness. Hey, y'. All. Hey. Love it.

[Jackie Perry]

You know what one thing I love?

[Preston Perry]

I'm sorry.

[Jackie Perry]

Every time we have guests and we do a little banter, seeing them trying to hold it in, that's actually very funny.

[Preston Perry]

They were smiling. She was like.

[Lori Krieg]

I was trying not to laugh because.

[Preston Perry]

We be going laugh. All right, we got Matt and Lori Krieg here. Clap it up. So Matt and Lori, I don't like personally when I listen to podcasts and they do a whole lot of tell us about yourself stuff. Cause genuinely, people don't care like that. If they want to know, Google them. Yeah, go on Instagram, go on Wikipedia. We gonna get straight to the nitty gritty, which is. Y' all got a book coming out. Tell us the title.

[Lori Krieg]

It's called Raising Wise Kids in a Sexually Broken World. A Gospel centered approach. Yeah.

[Preston Perry]

What makes y' all qualified to write it?

[Lori Krieg]

I mean, it's gotta be the Lord, right? But I've been in the sexuality conversation helping to equip the church with a gospel centered view of marriage and sexuality for over 10 years. Matt is a licensed mental health therapist.

[Preston Perry]

You can.

[Lori Krieg]

What do you do?

[Preston Perry]

You should have chimed in on Psalm 88, sir.

[Lori Krieg]

Yeah, right.

[Matt Krieg]

Lament, Lament. I mean, we. We have a whole chart of psalms that are lament psalms that I like to refer clients to. But yeah, I'm a mental health therapist and man, still don't feel like I'm completely qualified to talk about parenting because it's terrifying for all of us.

[Jackie Perry]

Wow.

[Lori Krieg]

But your specialty in therapy is sexuality and marriage.

[Preston Perry]

That's crazy.

[Jackie Perry]

Wow. We need to talk.

[Preston Perry]

When y' all got. When y' all got married. Did y' all imagine this for yourselves? No. Like, what did y' all think y' all would be doing?

[Lori Krieg]

I. I did have a sense in high school, I felt the Lord was calling me to speak and write, but I did not want to talk about human sexuality at all. I didn't know there were seasons in my story where I never thought I'd get married, let alone have kids, let alone help parents with their own kids. And so God just.

[Preston Perry]

I love that.

[Lori Krieg]

Qualifies us, doesn't he?

[Jackie Perry]

Did you guys feel led to go in this direction when you start having children, or was it your relationships with other grownups that inspired you to want to help children?

[Lori Krieg]

It was two years ago. I was journaling, and I can only tell you it just felt like this overwhelming burden from God that he laid on me. If it could have been tangible, it would have been tangible. I would have seen it. But I felt it, and it was God's heart for parents right now, there's so much misinformation. There's so many. Try Googling Christian sexuality, kids. You're gonna get 95 different things. Probably most of em are heretical. And so I had such a burden. And it felt like the Lord was like, hey, Lori, I love you. Thanks. I love you. I have given you this ministry, your story, your husband and these kids.

[Jackie Perry]

Wow.

[Lori Krieg]

Will you steward them to help equip other parents? And it really was an invitation, but it was such a burden from God, but a kind invitation that we're just dumb enough and smart enough to say yes to Jesus.

[Jackie Perry]

Yeah, that's dope. Yeah, that's dope.

[Preston Perry]

Well, before we started to tape, we had a quick question or a quick conversation about purity culture because you have this book equipping parents to disciple and help their children in this sexual, perverse, nasty, but, you know, generation where it's a lot of options on how to scratch some itches. Right. And you were talking about how, like, purity culture could affect even how parents view the book, the resource, or even their willingness to engage in just speaking about sexuality and stuff like that. And me and Preston were saying we weren't raised in church, so I didn't even know the phrase purity culture until I came to Faith, and then I saw that people weren't fans. So, like, even the book that people don't like. What's that book?

[Jackie Perry]

It's a lot of books that people don't like.

[Matt Krieg]

His dating, Goodbye.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, I read it. Yeah. When I was getting disciple, and I read it through the lens of, okay, this is going to help me, like, make wise decisions.

[Lori Krieg]

Right.

[Preston Perry]

And then I saw, like, oh, people don't like this. And I was just confused because I wasn't shaped and framed by this purity culture thing. And so I guess tell us what purity culture is and how that could affect the way people even engage in this conversation.

[Lori Krieg]

Right. Do you want to start?

[Matt Krieg]

Well, I mean, I'm going to let you talk because I think as a guy, I got a different message about purity culture that was just not as pronounced as the one that women tended to have received growing up in the same culture.

[Lori Krieg]

What'd they tell you?

[Matt Krieg]

Well, I mean, it was like, hey, don't do those things. But it wasn't.

[Lori Krieg]

Don't do what?

[Matt Krieg]

Like, don't have sex. Don't, you know, do any of the approaches towards sexuality. Don't do foreplay stuff, like, with your girlfriend. But there was also, like, still the acknowledgment that we know you're gonna want to do those things. And. And so, like, having a draw toward them was still somewhat acceptable. I feel like, at least with the women I've talked to in my office, like, there was much more of a pronounced, like, you're not supposed to think about it, want it, do anything until you get married. Then it's your responsibility to care for your husband's purity. Mm.

[Lori Krieg]

That was a really damaging message. Was exactly that. One is women are responsible for male lust. That wasn't the primary message of purity culture. Purity culture was really, I think, a sort of a reaction to seeing divorce statistics, to seeing, you know, there's a ton of promiscuity, and Christians were like, oh, my goodness, God created sex, and it's good. So they were saying that, but let's save it for marriage. But if there's one critique I have of it is it was very horizontally based. At least the version I heard is it was very based on don't do this. Do this if you're good is a version of the health and wealth gospel. If you're good, you're gonna have an awesome marriage with perfect sex and perfect everything. Not only marriage was promised to you, but, like, perfect sex in marriage if you're good.

[Preston Perry]

So singleness wasn't really a thing.

[Lori Krieg]

Singleness wasn't a viability.

[Preston Perry]

You.

[Lori Krieg]

You pray for your husband. When you're, like, five years old, you start praying for your husband.

[Jackie Perry]

Yeah. Wow. What. What were the consequences? On the flip side, what were the consequences if you were not not good? That if you did engage in that, what kind of messages were taught it.

[Lori Krieg]

Was like you were a piece of chewed up bubble gum or you're a piece of tape. Like, you keep sticking, it's meant to stick to this other side, but the more you stick or you sleep around, you know it's other tape. It's gonna get dirty and ugly and bad. So then let's say you're trying to follow Jesus as best as you can with this sort of messaging. You start to interpret if you do these things that you're dirty and bad and you can become pure again. You know, you can pray about it and become redeemed. Like, I don't think anyone who is a leader in that field would be like, yes, we love legalism and we wanted everyone to hate themselves. No one would say that, but that was some of the subliminal messaging, but some of the overt messaging, like Matt said, that was very challenging. I know in our marriage, especially our version of marriage, if I can be so blunt, is women are responsible for male lust and if they struggle with porn, that's your fault. If they look at someone else, that's your fault. So that, at least to me, felt more overt. That was a part of it because it's supposed to be perfect. But there's a lot of weight on women and men. What that does to men too, is it treats you like animals.

[Jackie Perry]

Yeah, you can't help it.

[Preston Perry]

So if you have a book training parents to disciple, help their children when it comes to sexual stuff, what makes what you're giving different? Cereal, I mean, was a very pivotal and central part of my childhood. Because it tastes good. The boxes were cute and fun. You can get little, you know, you could drink it, not drink it. You can't drink cereal. But you can, like, eat it with milk. You can eat it without milk. You can have it for breakfast, you can have it for dinner.

[Jackie Perry]

For me, like, cereal is synonymous with cartoons. It's like I just, just they just kind of go together, like, you know, that's sweet. Yeah, I love cereal.

[Preston Perry]

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[Jackie Perry]

My favorite flavor was the fruity flavor. Only because it reminded me of a childhood cereal that I ate, you know, growing up. And I like the fact that it gave me a good source of protein.

[Preston Perry]

So get $5 off your next order at magicspoon.com perry. Or look for Magic Spoon on Amazon or in your nearest grocery store. That's magicspoon.comperry for $5 off.

[Lori Krieg]

Do you want to start?

[Matt Krieg]

I mean, the hope is that it's. Rather than being, you know, reactive to culture, it's really trying to find out, like, what is that? Yes. What is the reason for God's creation of sex? What is the foundational goodness that we can really start to instill at a younger age? So that as they get older, as they're growing and developing interests or whatever, there's already that foundational theology around it that you can build on rather than learning on the playground or from porn or from movies or whatever, that parents are being seen as a viable resource and hopefully the first resource for their kids.

[Lori Krieg]

If I was to do one main critique of purity culture, it would be their eyes were too small. They were too focused on the don't do this, do this, and then you'll have a good life. I find so many people, maybe you guys see this too, don't know what the gospel is. Yeah, we don't even know why we're on this stinking planet, why God created us, what we're here for. And that factors into God's call on our life for marriage, for singleness, how we steward our sexuality, for gender. Like, that's the one critique I would give to purity culture is do we understand the gospel? And is all of it flowing from God's beautiful vision for human sexuality? Or is it just a theology of.

[Matt Krieg]

No, that's good.

[Preston Perry]

What is the gospel? Cause in your chapter, I think it's chapter one, you talk about the gospel and how we are to give the gospel, communicate the gospel to our children. But one of the interesting, I think, approaches is that you kind of paired the gospel with wisdom. And so how we wanna equip our children with the wisdom to navigate the world, because they're gonna come against evil, they're gonna come against stuff, they're gonna experience things within themselves. And it's like, we can't protect them from everything. Like, what you about to say?

[Jackie Perry]

No. And I was just going to say, correct me if I'm wrong, because I don't know nothing about this purity culture movement. I was on the block when this was happening, you know, but to be.

[Preston Perry]

Honest with you, you needed purity culture.

[Jackie Perry]

But, but also, I think what I might hear you hearing is that a lot of, a lot of this was invoked by shame. Like a lot of shame, like shaming and not intentionally. I think a lot of times when we are fearful, yeah, we can in our own. A bit like in our own, we can invoke shame because we desperately don't want people to go down the wrong, wrong path. But I don't think the gospel does that. The gospel says that we serve a God who redeems and restores right. And so even when we fall, we have a throne of grace to come to, a boldness that we might find help in our time of need and all the things. And so I think you guys growing up in this culture and seeing that how like a lot of fear driven ideologies probably helped invoke a lot of shame. Even though the intention was probably good, it invoked a lot of shame. And I think that's what I hear. And so how has you guys allowed the gospel message to inform how you guys write this resource and give it out to the world?

[Lori Krieg]

Our brains literally cannot process data when we're living in fear and shame. It goes into our reptilian brain, you could probably say the actual parts of our brain, but where we just fight flight, freeze and reproduction. That's where our brain goes when we're scared. When we're in defend mode is a phrase you might hear. But the gospel does not begin within the beginning. Sin distorted everything. It begins within the beginning. God created it.

[Preston Perry]

Good.

[Lori Krieg]

So the gospel is a theology of. Yes, and of flourishing. And it actually wakes up our brain to be able to receive the beauty of God's design for sex and sexuality and gender.

[Matt Krieg]

That's good.

[Lori Krieg]

So that's a pivot is what is not just. Okay, well, Lori Krieg is gonna bake in a happy smiley vision of sexuality. It's the gospel has created and formed for our brains and for our flourishing, a beautiful path of flourishing. So what is the gospel? The shortest way I can say it is the story of King Jesus. And how does that relate to human sexuality is God wants us to live into his beautiful vision for the world, to restore and redeem into joyful submission to King Jesus for our glory and his good.

[Jackie Perry]

Yeah, that's good. That's good.

[Preston Perry]

This is a really random question.

[Lori Krieg]

Sure.

[Preston Perry]

But Matt, I'm wondering if, even when you have clients who are dealing with certain things, do you find that their core issues are gospel issues?

[Matt Krieg]

Yeah, they're heart issues.

[Jackie Perry]

Right.

[Matt Krieg]

I mean, we are created to be made Complete in the Lord and the Lord alone. And we often will run to any number of things. I like to go to James chapter one with my glad when they're open to spirituality. I go to James chapter one when it says, hey, when we're tempted, don't let us say God is tempting us. Instead, it's our own evil desires that drag us away and entice us. But that word for evil desire is like a twisted desire. It's not like it's this inherently evil thing, but it's become idolized. It's become distorted. And so if we can start to. Rather than look at the thing we're trying to say no to, I got a lot of guys coming, like, trying to not look at porn anymore, rather than just staring at pornography and saying, don't look at it, don't look at it, don't look at it. It's this unraveling of, like, what is their heart really wanting in that engagement? And then how do we de. Twist it? How do we untwist it and realign it toward God and then toward, like, the healthy ways that God has provided in this life for us to meet those needs?

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, what I love about that is, you know, if the Bible begins with, all these things were good, but our experiences are not good. There is a sense in which the Lord is trying to restore us and even expose what we're actually after. You know what I'm saying? Like, people sometimes watch porn because they're after comfort. People engage in certain relationships because they're after identity. There is this sense where we are after good things. We're just doing it in perverted, distorted ways. And so I think to be able to speak. Speak to that, literally, I've seen it in my life and in my ministry. That thing like that helps you uproot a lot of stuff.

[Jackie Perry]

And I think that's what real ministry is and in short, is pointing people back to God. And I think, you know, you guys are doing it in the sexuality space. You know, I do it in an apologetic space. She does it in sexuality. So it's just pointing people back to the one day they were disconnected from, you know, And I probably have a lot of questions for you, like, because the Lord has made me be like. Like, led me to be more intrigued with therapy. And I'm just wondering, like, you know, as a Christian, like, when people come in your office, like, I know as a Christian you have a framework, like a biblical framework, but not everybody's Christian that comes into your office. And so I Guess I guess I can ask you now, how does that inform how you point people back to Jesus when you're, when you're like, I don't know if you can be like overtly Christian in your job, but like, how does that look like, like giving people Jesus in a secular space?

[Matt Krieg]

Like, yeah, I mean, when, when we're talking about the good needs that I believe, like God instilled created with our, we are created needy. That is not a disorder. That is how God created us for, for good. Because it's supposed to draw us back to him. And so even if I'm not saying, oh, hey, turn to Jesus, like I, I've had Muslim people come into my office because they know on my bio it says I'm a Christian. But they're like, I want to work with you because you believe in God and you're probably not going to make fun of me for believing in God too. And so like, it's very wise. Yeah. And I mean, I was surprised by that the first time I heard it, but it makes sense because so much of the world is kind of turning secularized, so there's like the complete absence of God. It's very humanist. And so even if I'm not saying, hey, you need to go to Jesus, if I'm talking about these needs that people have to belong, to be affirmed for love, for safety, that is something that universally draws people in. And then over time, people actually can get curious and start to ask like, hey, where do you go? I've had people who are like, I'm not interested in spirituality. But then after working with them for a long time, they actually do start to question. And that's when I can be more overt because they, the client is inviting it.

[Jackie Perry]

Yeah, that's good. You're an evangelist.

[Lori Krieg]

Yeah.

[Preston Perry]

When it comes to the gospel and communicating that to our children, how have you found, how do I say this? How you give the gospel to a three year old, it's different than how you give the gospel to a 15 year old. It's not a different message, but there is a different method. It's just different, you know what I'm saying? It's like the way I give the gospel to somebody in the hood will be a little bit different the way I get a gospel to somebody in Portland, Portland got a hood, just ain't seen it. So I'm saying, how would you communicate what you just said to a 3 year old? And how would you communicate what you just said to a 14 year old?

[Lori Krieg]

So when I talk with our.

[Preston Perry]

About sexuality.

[Lori Krieg]

About sexuality, yes. When I talk with our kids about the gospel, I do say the story of King Jesus. And I try and pinpoint because kids are like the epitome of needy. So there's times, you know, we'll have them. We've been trying to help them like earn their own money. And some of our kids, they want to spend it like water within one second. And I'll even ask them, I'll be like, do you feel that inside? Like that anxiety? I was like, usually it's not in the store when they have their money and their stuffy, their favorite stuffy is in front of them. They can't quite process what's going on inside. But later I might be like, what did you feel inside? And even like three year olds, four year old, five year olds, they can feel that emptiness inside. Well, I was feeling, you know, I was sad or I was bored or I was tired and I was like. And you ran to stuff. That's good, we all do that. And honestly, that's actually a really helpful framework when talking about our broken world. Last night I was talking to my almost 11 year old and she said, mom, I feel really like I don't know if I'm loved. And you know, as a parent, you're like, great. What you mean failing?

[Preston Perry]

I love you.

[Matt Krieg]

Yeah.

[Lori Krieg]

I say it 97 times a day and I pour out my life for you. And I literally drew a person and I drew a heart and I put a little hole in their heart. And I was like, hey, do you feel? I said, you know what? There's so many good things. Friends and I like drew pictures of all of it. We had this little like drawing, erasable thing. I said, friends and dad and me, you know, we can, we can love you and care for you, but at the end of the day, I said, there's always gonna be this gap.

[Preston Perry]

That's good.

[Lori Krieg]

And do you know who's the only one who can meet that? And she can eye roll at this point, you know, she knows what I'm gonna say.

[Preston Perry]

Oh, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus Christ.

[Lori Krieg]

But there's this pinpointing of where they're exactly at and then pointing to Jesus. Now there's other ways we talk about the story of King Jesus, which I can share that, but that's just like the tangible going off of the heart model that we've been.

[Preston Perry]

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[Jackie Perry]

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[Preston Perry]

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[Jackie Perry]

We have four children, and when we leave this earth, we want to make sure our children are good, taken care of. And this is the reason why it's important for us to start thinking about these things before we leave and, you know, go home.

[Preston Perry]

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[Jackie Perry]

Yeah, that's beautiful. And I think it's beautiful because she doesn't have language probably to realize that, you know, you were actually created for someone.

[Lori Krieg]

Yes.

[Jackie Perry]

And that someone is Jesus. And so when, when you do feel a longing, you probably don't know how to like, mentally, emotionally, like to know I'm actually longing for Jesus. And so sometimes it could just be like you could feel the pressure of like, oh, my kid is tired of me talking about Jesus, but it's actually the one that they have to consistently be pointed back to because that's what they're longing for.

[Lori Krieg]

You know what, that actually helped me as a mom too, because there is. I don't know if you feel this too, Jackie, but among parents right now, there's a lot of critique of how our parents did it. And some of that is really good and needed some of it though. I'm like realizing I feel the backswing on myself where I'm like, oh, no. Now I feel like when I fail them, when I do this, that, that or the other thing, I am distorting their view of God. I'm sending them to 95 million hours of therapy, et cetera. Right. But even drawing that out and saying out loud to her that I can't complete her, that's good. Was actually a really helpful reminder for me as a mom that Lori, that's excellent. It's Actually, yeah.

[Jackie Perry]

It takes a lot of pressure off you. Yeah.

[Preston Perry]

That's excellent.

[Jackie Perry]

That's good.

[Preston Perry]

Because I was sharing with Preston this morning how I don't consume a lot of parenting content. Yeah, I don't.

[Lori Krieg]

Right.

[Preston Perry]

Because it makes me feel guilty 100%. Like, the Instagram pages, like, some of it, I gotta be real desperate for me to engage, you know what I'm saying? So even Me, too. Even this conversation, I think, can provoke that guilt in people. Like, they just gonna remind me of what I'm not doing.

[Lori Krieg]

Right, Exactly. You know what I'm saying?

[Preston Perry]

But I think for you to say no, you need to apply the gospel even to that shame. You know what I'm saying? Like, that. Like, the Lord wants to speak to that too. Because it's like, you're not gonna be the perfect parent.

[Jackie Perry]

Absolutely.

[Preston Perry]

But we can't grow.

[Jackie Perry]

Absolutely.

[Lori Krieg]

And that's why this conversation and all these conversations, we need to put the burden back on God, and we need to look at our parenting and all of it through this lens of he is writing a good story and we're just a part of it.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, we are. Yeah.

[Jackie Perry]

You asked the question. Well, we talked about how purity culture, kind of like the fear caused, like, the invoking of shame and all the things. Like, how do we. Like, in a broken world where it seems like pornography is kind of unavoidable, like. Like it's just out there. You know, our kids are exposed to it at school, kids, house. I mean, technology is like, crazy. Like, how do we proactively counteract the fear of our kids stumbling on porn with the gospel? Like. Like. Like, because it's It. I'm not gonna say it's not avoidable for everybody, but they're gonna hear about it, see about it, and so how. I guess I'm asking, like, how do we not lead with fear of thinking, like, once our kid sees this, they're gonna be forever tainted. They're go. Ever ruined. Like. Like, what would your advice be to parents in that way?

[Matt Krieg]

I think the biggest thing is to realize that that first exposure is coming earlier than you imagine. I mean, I think the last study I read was the average age of first exposure to pornography is something like 8 years old.

[Lori Krieg]

Between 8 and 12. There's several studies out there. Yeah.

[Matt Krieg]

And so, I mean, it's coming before you realize it's not when they're in puberty, it's very much earlier. But if we're talking about it, if we become the first person that's like, hey, you might see Things online that make you feel confused or maybe intrigued or something. If we're the first one that talks to them about that, we're the ones that they can come to when they have maybe been exposed to it and they can actually process it. It's not something. They're like, oh, I saw something and I feel weird about it, and I can never talk to anyone, and then I have to process it in silence or on the playground.

[Preston Perry]

Wow.

[Lori Krieg]

I'm even more overt. I, like, sat our kids down. It was like Matt was seeing clients late, and I was like, lori, just have the conversation about porn. Do it. So I prayed about it. And, you know, our kids at this point, we're 10, 8, 5. And I said, do you guys know that you know how we talk about how the Internet is not a very safe place? That, for one, is a common conversation?

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Lori Krieg]

We're trying to get them in embodied interactions, and we want to be leery of the Internet. I said, do you know that some people, they actually take pictures of private parts and they put them online?

[Preston Perry]

What?

[Lori Krieg]

I said that out loud because.

[Preston Perry]

As.

[Lori Krieg]

A mom, I want to be their anchoring bias. Have you heard that?

[Jackie Perry]

Jesus, that's good word right there.

[Preston Perry]

Y' all speak in songs. Yada baye kit she da. Because I felt that I never heard that in my life, and I liked it.

[Lori Krieg]

Anchoring bias, it's a psychological term that means the first place that we hear something is going to be the gold standard to which we compare everything else.

[Jackie Perry]

Wow.

[Lori Krieg]

Do I want the gold standard for the Internet, for sex, for relationships to be pornography, where nine out of 10 videos are violent or they stumble across it, and that first stumbling across porn is actually a trauma. Or do I want if. And I would say when probably likely you're gonna see some at least soft porn. Instagram is, like, covered in it. I want them to remember mom and dad already told me about this, so I didn't stop it there. Did you know that some people put on the Internet? No. Why would they do that? You guys, it's so sad, isn't it? That people. That is not. We're supposed to honor our body, aren't we? We're supposed to honor these places. So I just want you to know that if you guys come across that, you shut whatever it is you're looking at, you come find mom and dad, and I want you to know you will not get in trouble.

[Preston Perry]

Why is that important?

[Lori Krieg]

Because shame is a real jerk. And Satan, sexuality and shame are, like, best buddies. So I even ask them Right after. So, so if you come across a picture like that, will you get in trouble? I'm not kidding. I literally just said five seconds before, you're not gonna get in trouble. Already Satan was jumping in as far as like trying to.

[Jackie Perry]

She's lying.

[Lori Krieg]

Yeah, exactly. They went, I don't know. You will not get in trouble. And so we, we went through it. So I said, what happens? A review. What do you do? They tell me back and we get in trouble. No, we go through that like every six months.

[Preston Perry]

Months.

[Jackie Perry]

Wow.

[Preston Perry]

I think it's an. I got two questions with that. Because I've often said around the sexuality conversation that when a child, teenager, whoever comes out of the closet confesses or is exposed, how you respond is really important because I think we, I really not think, I believe we need to respond like Christ because that too trains them how to go to him when they get caught in sin. Right. And so I think responding in a gospel centric way helps them to velocity this like capacity to be like, okay, I can confess my sin to God and still be loved and still be received. And so how does someone, how does a parent develop that? Do you get what I'm saying? Oh, yeah. Because I, I, you see, parents, I think, swing the pendulum where they respond in shame, which might be embarrassment, really, or fear, where it's just like, why would you do that? That's stupid, that's dumb. Da, da, da. Or like my mama, she found stuff and they say a thing because I don't think she wanted any parts of it. I think it just overstimulated her and gave her anxiety. Like my daughter's watch porn. I don't know what to do. Just. So how do we not flee and how do we not attack? How do we respond?

[Matt Krieg]

Like Christ, to be curious. And I would say first and foremost of your own sexual story. If you haven't processed your own story, if you haven't processed your own sin and struggles, then you are not going to respond well to someone else's.

[Jackie Perry]

That's good, sir.

[Matt Krieg]

And so I know, like, I've had many times where that thing that you were talking about, either someone coming out or being caught looking at pornography, sleeping with boyfriend, girlfriend, whatever, like where I've had the whole family in my office and I asked the question, like, to the parents and to the kid, hey, what shaped your sexual story? And they will literally look at me like a deer in headlights and be like, are we allowed to talk about this?

[Preston Perry]

Wow.

[Matt Krieg]

I'm like, you need to talk about this. Because if you're not like, who are they? Who are they talking about it with?

[Jackie Perry]

That's good.

[Preston Perry]

That's excellent. Because those are real good.

[Jackie Perry]

In black church, we throw shoes. I might throw a sock at you because I ain't got a shoe.

[Preston Perry]

I think I've developed my strategy on how to respond to people's sin because of how the Lord has responded to mine. Yeah, It's a conscious awareness of. Of how he treated and treats me.

[Lori Krieg]

That's right.

[Preston Perry]

And knowing like, no, I want to give away that same grace. Now, alongside the grace, though, there's also a need for boundaries and discipline. And so how do you create boundaries and discipline that doesn't also feel like a. Like a. A consequence? That's like, you know. You know what I'm trying to say?

[Matt Krieg]

It's not a slap on the wrist.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, right. It's. It's like, you need some discipline and some boundaries. But I also don't want you to feel shame. So it's like, but I gotta do something.

[Jackie Perry]

And also, too, I've thought about that as a parent. I've thought about man, I need to give my children discipline because, you know, God chastises us. Right. He disciplines us. But I'm afraid that my discipline would prevent them from coming back to me. Freedom again. And so I think, what is the balance of disciplining and not being afraid to make them shut down?

[Preston Perry]

Real question.

[Lori Krieg]

So the goal is of God's dis. Hatred. Whatever word you want to use of sin is because he wants union with us. He wants holiness, he wants purity. We could even use that word because he wants union. He doesn't want to beat us over the head. It's not like he's like, gosh, I just love hurting my kids. No. So do we have that heart in is. I'm looking at my kid who's. Whatever they're feeling, shame, guilt, whatever they're feeling, I want union with them. I wanna show them, like you said, the heart of the father. If it's the first exposure, every therapist that you read, every psychologist, psychiatrist, who is in this field will tell you that's trauma. We don't discipline trauma because a child's brain cannot ever prepare themselves for what they see on that screen. Ever.

[Jackie Perry]

Wow.

[Lori Krieg]

Now, if they're, you know, they stole the iPad, they went around behind your back, you know, they're lying about 79 things. You gotta have discernment there. But truly, those first exposure. Exposures, it's a trauma and we need to treat it as such. I'm so sorry you saw that, like, what if they encountered. That they saw someone having sex around the block? Like, I am so sorry. That is trauma for you. How are you feeling? Thank you for telling me. I told you you wouldn't get in trouble. You're not getting in trouble now. If parents are listening to this and they're like, oh, my goodness, I definitely grounded my kid for 17 weeks after their first exposure. Grace, Grace, Grace, Grace, Grace. There's so much. It's about repairing. We can always go back. But I would say we need to be cautious with those first, like, sneaking exposures, because curiosity and sexuality, they're very close in the brain.

[Preston Perry]

Ooh, that's good.

[Lori Krieg]

And kids like, who. No one has a fully developed brain when they're 12 years old. You know, however old they are stumbling across it, and so they see it, and it weakens things up. If you've had sexual abuse, you know, the confusion of that because it wakes things up in your body. That's what's happening to our precious kids.

[Jackie Perry]

Yeah.

[Lori Krieg]

So I would ask the questions, how are you feeling? How did you know it might make you feel a mix of emotions? That's okay.

[Jackie Perry]

Wow.

[Lori Krieg]

So that's where I'd begin the discipline piece. You know, even in our book, we talk about that. I say, just be cautious with that in these early ages. Our book is 12 and under. You know, if you're talking to a kid who's been watching porn and masturbating, do all this stuff for 10 years, whatever, that's a whole other conversation. But these early exposures, I would just encourage us to walk tenderly and seek union.

[Preston Perry]

That's good.

[Jackie Perry]

Yeah, that's good. I think that's great what you said, because I think if somebody feel like their parent is just mad because I'm just irritated. I'm mad that you disobey me, but I love the fact that you pointed back to the heart of God. God doesn't discipline us because of dad. He disciplines us because ultimately, what he wants is fellowship. He wants communion. He wants connection. And doing things that goes against his nature breaks that. And so I think, what if we bring that into our parents? And what if we bring that framework? Like, Daddy's not mad at you because I'm just irritated. I'm disappointed in you. This actually breaks peace between me and you and Daddy. Daddy wants to enjoy you. And so, like, I think that would even color, like, when we do discipline, our kids, like to know, like, Daddy's mad because he loves me, and he wants us to have peace with one another. And if you're lying and walking around here doing things that I told you, it breaks that peace, it breaks that fellowship, it breaks that, you know, communion. And so I think that's really, really helpful.

[Preston Perry]

And I want to say something that's going to sound a bit, bit mystical, but I, I want parents to know that take heed to the Holy Spirit's promptings about stuff. You know, like, I've, like, I've had so many times where I've had dreams, I've had just unctions that I need to have a certain conversation that I need to look at a certain thing that I need to check a certain situation. It's true, like, honestly. And it's, it's because the Lord is guiding, like his spirit is guiding you as you parent your children. And it's been when I've ignored stuff that I found stuff, you know, and so I, I think just to pay attention to that and I, because I wish I had it. I remember hearing kids who grew up with Christian parents talk about, like, man, the Lord always told on me. And I love that he's doing that now. Like, the Lord be telling my kids, be business to me. Like, I love it. Now y' all in the book talk about how you read the Bible at dinner. Who, who started that? Y' all eat dinner every day. Y' all eat at the table every day. Is you making the dinner? Is it Uber Eats? Is it like a spiritual discipline for y'? All? Like, what did y' all do when the babies couldn't read the devotional? You read it to them? Is it the NLT you doing esv, nsa? How. Tell us about your Bible time with.

[Matt Krieg]

Your K. Yeah, usually it's at breakfast. So we try to start the day.

[Lori Krieg]

Which is like Lucky Charms.

[Matt Krieg]

I mean, it's a lot of times it's Lucky Charms or maybe some box pancake mix or something.

[Lori Krieg]

Kodiak cakes.

[Matt Krieg]

Those are good protein cakes.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

[Matt Krieg]

But it started off as like a kid's devotional. I think the one we stuck on most is like thoughts to make your heart sing. It's just these little like two paragraph devotionals with the kids. We would read them to them and then eventually once our girls got old enough to read on their own, it would kind of rotate. Someone reads and then the other person kind of leads the prayer time of, hey, what does everyone need prayer for today? And so that's where we've been at. We've, we've started transitioning to like, hey, let's, let's read the actual Bible. Because it is time for them to, to really start cracking it open. They have their own Bible, you know, but given the ages of our kids, you know, our youngest still still likes the little, you know, two minute, two paragraph thing.

[Jackie Perry]

Yeah.

[Matt Krieg]

But it's just that early exposure. Pleasure.

[Lori Krieg]

Yeah, It's a rhythm. We, I would say our best weeks, it's like four times a week and I'd love it to be seven, but it's not, it's probably about five minutes. But I, it's so good for us. There's so many times we'll be like, that's Sally Lloyd Jones. She really just gets me.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lori Krieg]

But we'll read it or one of the girls will read it and we, we just go around, we say, what did you hear in that? And so they could say Jonah Whale. And as long as they're not being sassy, we don't care. It's just, just let's get in the posture of like we read it, you think about it and then the prayer time. It's really sweet. Our 4 year old has been leading it for a while. He's now 6. He's 4, 5, 6. And he'll just say, what do you want prayer for? And initially, like we have all the prayers. Yeah.

[Preston Perry]

He'll go around the. An assassin. Yes.

[Lori Krieg]

And then he'll pray in his sweet little heart. But at the beginning, none of them want to. None of them really. It's a shaping of our family. But it's really sweet when, and you know, we read this, we say what we heard in it. Even Matt and I say, and then we say something we're thankful for and what we want prayer for and to have a five year old pray for you.

[Jackie Perry]

I had one of my spiritual leaders tell us, tell me when I was discipling young men, he said, you need to stop telling the people that you disciple. They need to stop telling you what they need. Jesus never asked the disciples, what do you need? Right. And I think the same thing can be said for our children. Like they don't know they need it, but as time goes on, they realize this actually is benefiting me, you know, and so sometimes we gotta just bully our kids, like, no, you gonna pray even when you don't feel like it. This is what you need and you'll see it eventually.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah. I remember a framework that I heard from Jen Wilkin a long time ago that was really helpful is that she was like, when your kids are young, it's high frequency, low depth. When your kids are Older, it's low frequency, high depth. And it kind of released me from feeling like I needed to te them about eschatology at 2, 3, 4, you know what I'm saying? Like, I'm thinking like, oh, y' all need to know the atonement. But it was like it, it was propitiation. Yeah. It was fine to say. Like, I remember I took Eden with me to teach at Passion some years back. She was like six and I was teaching Isaiah six and she was in the back and I said, did you understand anything? I said? And she said, no. And I said, I taught about God being holy. I said, that means that he's different and that he's good. I didn't have to say that he is, you know, preeminent, that he is sanctified, that he. He is different, he's good. And that's it.

[Lori Krieg]

Like, that's right.

[Preston Perry]

I'm just building bricks. And so I think, don't feel this pressure to give your children a seminary education beyond their bandwidth. Like the Lord can do a lot with a little.

[Jackie Perry]

Yeah.

[Lori Krieg]

And that's what was fun about writing this book. So I've been in this space for over 10 years teaching churches and teach adults. But there's nothing like taking these huge concepts and making them so five year old understand what marriage is.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Lori Krieg]

What is sex? When you talk about it with them, when they're 8, 9, 10, you know, so it's. But it helps me learn it. And it is still true, even if.

[Jackie Perry]

It'S simple and makes you a better teacher too. When you have to teach children.

[Lori Krieg]

It does.

[Jackie Perry]

You have to break things down in a very, very simple complex, like big ideas. Very, very simple. It makes you a way better teacher.

[Preston Perry]

In your book, you give vision for not only marriage, but singleness. I can't say I've seen that before because I think we're usually trained to disciple our children in having a vision for marriage only. So what's the strategy with that?

[Lori Krieg]

So we talked a little bit about the gospel from a heart view. We talked a little bit about. The gospel is a story of King Jesus. When I ask our kids, what is the purpose of your life? What is the missio dei? What is the mission of God? Here's how we say it. The mission of God is to push back the darkness and usher in the light. So our kids, they don't wanna the go to school. Nobody they ever want to go to school. Why do I have to go to school? There's an instinct in me that wants to say, you have to go to school because you have to get a good job and you have to become a marketable spouse. Already I'm leaning into idolatry because I don't know that that's true.

[Preston Perry]

That's good.

[Lori Krieg]

And you can make XYZ money and get out someday because I'm tired. Or I could say, God is advancing his kingdom. Or in kids speak, God wants to push back the darkness and usher in the light. And he made you so good. And he's actually given you incredible gifts. And when you go to school, you're helping. You're sharpening the gifts that God has given you to help advance this kingdom. Work. I said nothing about marriage. Because marriage and singleness are the modes we live out the mission to advance God's kingdom.

[Preston Perry]

Kingdom.

[Jackie Perry]

That's good.

[Lori Krieg]

Now go.

[Preston Perry]

Keep going.

[Lori Krieg]

We do say things about marriage and singleness, but we say things like, do you see that bird over there? Look at the little eggs. Or in the springtime where it's, like, all flowering and beautiful. Isn't that so cool? God is a God who wants to make babies. I'm talking about the multiplicative heart of God. You see that in churches. You see that everywhere. God is a God who wants to make babies. And he might have called you dear one to get married and have babies. If God gives you babies, you know, I'm not about to say he's definitely gonna give you kids. I don't know their story. But he wants you to make disciples. He wants us to make babies. Whether he calls you to marriage or if God calls you to singleness, which is equally good, I don't even need to say it, because they know that it's so ingrained in our heart, in our house. Or he might call you to singleness, but he still has called you to have babies.

[Preston Perry]

That's good. Yeah.

[Lori Krieg]

Because he wants everyone to make decisions.

[Jackie Perry]

Wow, that's really good.

[Preston Perry]

That's transformative.

[Jackie Perry]

You felt that in your shonda. I did it a little quicker than.

[Preston Perry]

Because there's so much. So much that we have to. There's so much we have to undo about marriage and singleness. In the church today. You have so many singles or you have recently divorced people who now feel lost, you know, because they're no longer married. So it's just like. I think to cultivate that in your children is just kind of deep and interesting.

[Jackie Perry]

Yeah. And I think that's another reason why people.

[Preston Perry]

Your knee is so bony. Yeah. I think I was like, ooh, spicy.

[Jackie Perry]

Goodness gracious. I think that's Another reason why people feel like they can't actually fulfill the purpose of God in their life until they get married. And so they feel like they can be fruitful until they find a spouse. And I think that, you know that type of ideology. Yeah.

[Preston Perry]

Can I say something? Which is. Which is spiky knee. No. This morning we were talking and we were saying how ministry to our children as it relates to our marriage in particular is not just communicating. Ephesians 5 and Genesis 1 and 2 and all of this stuff, it's living it.

[Jackie Perry]

Yeah.

[Preston Perry]

It's like how we exist as a married couple also preaches to our children. And so how is. I guess, how would you encourage people even about that being a lesson? Like, it's not just the words, it's also the union between you two about marriage in particular.

[Lori Krieg]

Also singleness.

[Preston Perry]

Marriage, but the singleness part, because y' all ain't single. So I would be interested on how y' all preach a vision of singleness. As non singles.

[Lori Krieg]

You have dope single people in your life. You have single people in your life who love Jesus, because that's not a lesser calling. I. I was just reading in 3 John 1:4, he says, I have no greater joy than to see my children are living in the truth.

[Preston Perry]

That's good.

[Lori Krieg]

He's not married and he doesn't have kids. He has spiritual kids. And God has empowered him. God has given. He gave him the gift of singleness, just like he gave Paul the gift of singleness. So when we have our single friends over, it's not like, oh, our poor sad sack single friend. It's, look at how amazing she is. And I say, I literally say this to them. Our friend Cassie, who's in our book, I say, God has called her to singleness. And I don't always even say, in this season. He might call her forever, but look at what she's doing with her singleness. Or God might call you to marriage, and that's to your point in how you love your spouse. That shows your kids a picture of God's love for them.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah. Yeah. It's huge.

[Jackie Perry]

That's really good. I guess I have another question as it relates to you guys, marriage, how important it is for you guys to have a togetherness. Like you guys to be on the same page as it relates to the vision that you give your children, how you pour into your children, because you guys are two different individuals. Right. Sometimes you might think a certain way. Sometimes you might think a certain way. Sometimes you might say, this is too young to introduce this idea and, like, so working. Because I think working together will inform how we work with our children. And so how important has that been for y'? All marriage?

[Matt Krieg]

I don't know that we can overstate the importance of it. I mean, it's. And it's. Again, it's not like the. Are we in verbal agreement on this course of action? I think it's much more. Are we moving the same direction? You might even notice in the way we speak. Lori can get a little more fiery.

[Preston Perry]

That's what that is.

[Matt Krieg]

I'm much more of a counselor. Right. I'm calm. I'm not exuberant. And there's good and bad to both of us.

[Jackie Perry]

I relate, man. She's. She just.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, I was just like, oh, this is me personally.

[Jackie Perry]

She just. She just goes off on songs and tangents. I just like, wait till you're done.

[Preston Perry]

Hey, man.

[Matt Krieg]

But I mean, I think part of that unity is recognizing the strength. Like, Lori is a. She's verbally gifted. I mean, that's one of her love. Languages is like words of affirmation. It's not mine. She constantly calls me to be more effusive of my praise, especially with our kids, saying, I love you. Saying, like, when I've seen them do good things. Whereas, like, for me, like, I'm an easy time spent. Like, I can just sit there with my kids and, like, lean against them and, like, we're both reading, like, a big Nate comic together, like, just real low key, you know? But both of those are good. And both of those can help to form something different in our kids.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Jackie Perry]

Yeah.

[Lori Krieg]

But to get on the same page takes work, as you guys know, right? It's. There's so many times where I'm like, can we go on a walk?

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lori Krieg]

So we have to go on a walk and get what's going on here. And I think as women, we. That. That can be sometimes easier for us to discern. Not always. Sometimes it's the guy who is easier, can feel the tension sooner. But in our relationship, it's usually me. And then we're. We just. It's even in the walking side by side and getting back on the same page. We come back in the house and our kids feel that. They feel that union. Because marriage, if we're talking about this gospel vision, marriage is a picture of how much God wants to and will be one with us.

[Jackie Perry]

Yeah, that's good.

[Lori Krieg]

That's what our kids see. And so if there's disunity, again, we could take the pressure off we all can think of 97 fights we had in the last week because the burden is on God. But we are still an example, the closest example to our kids of God's treasuring love of them.

[Jackie Perry]

Yeah, I remember my dad and my mom got divorced when I was five. And I remember around four or five, I don't remember a lot, but what I do remember is the anxiety that my body felt when they were at odds or when they were arguing. I don't even remember other things in my, in my early childhood. And then they got divorced when I was five and I was separated from my father for years. It was very tragic. Lot of therapy. A lot of therapy. A lot of therapy. But I just think about God's unity. I mean, God is a communal triune God and like how they are so connected. It gives like we, we probably couldn't even fathom how much security we have because we have Father, Son and Holy Spirit united as one. And so how much more does that kind of filter into our homes when our we as married couples, husband and w. Like, I think it creates a security, a confidence, a reassurance that our parents, who is the glue of this home, this family, is together. And I think that's the reason why the enemy attacks marriage so much. Not just because, you know, it's a picture of the gospel throughout the earth. But he wants to impact how our children see the world and see each other throughout marriage.

[Preston Perry]

I think hearing all of that, I think of people who, who either have divorced, who might have always been single and have not lived morally pure lives in front of their children, and they're trying to do it right, but they know they have more history of doing it wrong.

[Jackie Perry]

Wow, that's good, bro.

[Preston Perry]

I guess. How do you encourage parents who feel like I've had an example that is unhelpful more than I've had a helpful example. Will my kids even trust what I have to say now? Will they even believe me? Will they feel like I'm a hypocrite? How can I tell them to be sexually pure and they saw me fall a month ago? How can I tell my kids to honor marriage and I divorce somebody? Like, how do you speak into that? Cause I feel like we have people, I know we have people listening that feel that way.

[Lori Krieg]

I mean, the first thing is to take that anxiety and that, that shame and that wrestling and stop and take it to Jesus, like sooner than later.

[Preston Perry]

That's good.

[Lori Krieg]

Just face it. There's so many times when like parenting shame. I mean, I could Go to bed every single night hating myself if I wanted to. And instead of just ignoring it and it just is like this gnat in your ear, just face it and bring it to Jesus and say, jesus, who do you say I am? Is it actually true that I can start again right now? Now, is it actually true that I can hide behind the cross and your grace is actually sufficient for me? Is that true? And then it is. There's nothing so gloriously uncomfortable as accepting the love and grace of Jesus.

[Jackie Perry]

That's good.

[Lori Krieg]

Here we are in our mess to actually say Jesus loves me and takes this away. You're gonna feel panicky. That's not a sign you're doing it wrong. You might be doing it right. So, and then I would. It depends on the ages of your kids, but I like to acknowledge elephants in the room. So be like, you know what guys, I have messed up. And depending on the ages of your kids and what's the age appropriate level of sharing what that was like, like how you messed up? It can be a general or illusion or specific and just say, but you know what? I love Jesus. Jesus, and here's his vision and I'm convinced it's good. And I, I want to help us see that it's good too.

[Jackie Perry]

That's good.

[Preston Perry]

Because, you know, I think kids need to know that their parents know how to repent.

[Lori Krieg]

Yes, that's what's up.

[Preston Perry]

We don't, we, none of us need perfect parents. No, none of us need self righteous parents either. We need parents that know what it's like to mess up, acknowledge it, confess and move forward so that they have a model of how to do that too. And so I would just be encouraged. But maybe God is also training them in how to actually do this thing. You know what I'm saying?

[Jackie Perry]

The whole Bible is broken people. God using broken people to show us his, his heart, his will. Because if they were perfect, I mean, they would point to a perfect God.

[Preston Perry]

So I, I, I think this is practical, so we have to address it. LBGTQ visuals. Yeah. On screen ads.

[Jackie Perry]

Please speak to that Hulu, because we.

[Preston Perry]

Live in Amazon Prime. Oh, billboards. Billboard. Oh my God. It was, yeah.

[Jackie Perry]

Anyway, I know she used to say we was going to church one day. It was this billboard.

[Preston Perry]

I told person, drive up, drive up. I just started asking them questions. I said, yeah, y' all.

[Lori Krieg]

Like that donut that y' all said.

[Preston Perry]

I just want to try to distract them as much as possible because it was the hugest billboard that I knew. It's like Sometimes you don't feel like having the conversation. I just didn't feel like saying two men are kissing because I didn't feel like doing it because the way our.

[Jackie Perry]

10 year old and our 7 year old.

[Preston Perry]

Why is they doing that? Always, Always.

[Jackie Perry]

I do not feel like.

[Preston Perry]

Give us your wisdom. The visuals.

[Lori Krieg]

All right, so you see the rainbow flag. What do you say?

[Preston Perry]

Yes.

[Lori Krieg]

In the moments where you're like, I actually can talk about this.

[Jackie Perry]

They're going to flood the earth again.

[Lori Krieg]

You can. I suppose you can do that. So there's something called an unformulated experience that can happen to a kid where they see something question mark bubbles go above their head and it just like bounces around their brain just hangs out there, that feels, that produces anxiety. They're gonna start trying. They're gonna create their own story to finish it. Cause our brains wanna finish the loop. We as parents need to help to bring that unformulated experience into the left brain. Give language. That's good now that's gonna calm them down. That's gonna help them understand what they see. You don't have to do that every single time, but here's what you do if it's the time. So you see that rainbow flag or you see those two guys kissing. What did you think of that? Just let em answer. And they're gonna say some crazy stuff. They're gonna be whatever they're gonna say.

[Jackie Perry]

Yeah.

[Lori Krieg]

Thanks so much for sharing. Thank you. I'm always thanking them. Yeah.

[Jackie Perry]

Yeah.

[Lori Krieg]

It was kind of different now. Now why is that not God's design? Maybe your kids have no clue. You've never talked about this one time. Wow. You know how. What is God like?

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, that's good.

[Lori Krieg]

Start with God. Yeah, God, he's big, he's strong, he's mighty. Whatever they know. Whatever words they do know. And what are people like? Oh, well, we're people. They probably don't even know what to say. Are we different or are we the same? We're different moms and dads. Or God designed marriage to be different between a mom and a dad because they actually show you a picture of how God loves you even though he's so different from us.

[Preston Perry]

That's good.

[Lori Krieg]

God wants to be one with us. And God wants marriage to be between a mommy and a daddy because he wants to show the world a picture of how different he is, but how he wants to be one with us.

[Jackie Perry]

You is preaching. You better preach some. Come on now.

[Lori Krieg]

If you want to take it to level two.

[Jackie Perry]

Yeah, take it to level two.

[Lori Krieg]

Here's level two is babies. This is such a simple apologetic. So different is required. So some people are like, oh, well, two lesbian women, they're different and opt out. Babies. I hear you.

[Preston Perry]

Sex difference.

[Lori Krieg]

Sex difference. Now why babies? Babies include people, but they're not about people either. They're about God. God's heart is multiplicative. He wants to create more and more images of himself everywhere because he loves us so much. And he wants the whole earth to be submitted to King Jesus and worshiping him. He wants more pictures of himself everywhere. So how he designed that is two different things. Showing a picture of God how different he is from us, but wants union with us. Moms and dads are different. Want union with each other. Only a mom and a dad can show the multiplicative heart of God.

[Jackie Perry]

That's good.

[Lori Krieg]

Two women can't see what.

[Preston Perry]

What. I think what you're also displaying is, you know that text in Deuteronomy? I don't know it. Where it's like everywhere you go, talk about this on your door, post all the stuff.

[Lori Krieg]

Yeah.

[Preston Perry]

The thing about that text is, to me, it always says, I'm not going to talk about this all the time if it's not in.

[Lori Krieg]

That's right.

[Preston Perry]

You know what I'm saying? And so even your communication to your children from. With this, this, even to distill the theology means you have to wrestle with it. You have to think about it. You got to know it. And so it puts us in a position to be. To learn ourselves. And I think that's actually the beauty sometimes of parenting or even ministry is that you'll get asked questions that reveal a lack that maybe the Lord wants you to like, oh, I need to study that so I can come back and be like, oh, this is why this exists. And then. And so.

[Jackie Perry]

Yeah, well.

[Lori Krieg]

And that's why I have such a heart for these moms and dads who see the two dads kissing on the big billboard or see the rainbow flag and they panic. But that's why I'm like, can we. I would take it. Take it all. Take everything. I've written all of the we're doing conferences, this video project you guys got to be a part of, Please learn these things. Because I just so want the next generation to not just be lost. And then like, all right, I'm affirming and love is love.

[Jackie Perry]

Wow.

[Preston Perry]

You have a quote that I want to read directly because I liked, says, how can we help our kids grow up as healthy boys and girls in this gender hurting World. I believe a huge part of it is helping our kids belong with their gender, with their families, and with the church. Why do I correlate belonging and helping our kids love their sexed bodies? I want you to answer that question.

[Matt Krieg]

Belonging is something that we are all, I feel, like, feel the need for if we've ever been alone or if we've ever felt like an outcast or like we didn't fit in. We all long for belonging. We all long for a place that we're like, okay, I fit here, I belong. One of the first ways we tend to see that is in sex difference. You know, that boys will tend to gravitate toward one another stereotypically, by and large, and girls will as well.

[Preston Perry]

Well.

[Matt Krieg]

And so, so much of the gender conversation right now feels like it's. It's born out of this kind of rallying against some of the strong stereotypes. Because I'm not John Wayne, I'm not a male, or because I'm not a Barbie doll, I'm not female. And that's. It's kind of the strawman argument, right? Like, no one is John Wayne and no one is Barbie. Yeah. My son, even if he wants to play American Girl dolls with his sisters, is still a boy. My daughter, even though she loves basketball and can beat a lot of the boys in her school in lightning, is still a girl.

[Jackie Perry]

Yeah.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Jackie Perry]

Wow.

[Lori Krieg]

We've walked with a lot of people who wrestle with gender. All of them have a story of not feeling like they belong with their biological sex group. And it breaks my heart now, or is that always the issue that is beneath the gender dysphoria? No, but it is interesting to me. I don't think it helps when we say what Matt was just saying as far as gender stereotypes. You belong here. If you do, like pink and dolls and to paint your nails, then you're a girl or this is a boy. When I listen to my friends who wrestle with gender, I hear them very young, like, opting out, saying, I don't do X, Y, and Z in this group. Therefore, yeah, what am I? What am I? But I wonder if, even if it's what am I? I wonder if the question is, do I belong? So when our son, if he wanted to paint his nails or play American Girls, I'm never going to say, say, yes, you can play American Girls and you're such a good mommy when you do that. I'm going to say, you're such a good dad, because all dads are supposed to be nurturing and I'm Going to say all the time we say this. I love your version of boy. Now, if I think he's going to do something that's not stereotypical and it might get him, like, bullied or made fun of, I'm probably going to say that tenderly. Hey, you know what? Usually boys don't do this, but you're doing it so boys can do it because you're a boy.

[Jackie Perry]

Yeah.

[Lori Krieg]

And this is another piece when we talk about distilling complex things, simply, what makes a boy?

[Preston Perry]

Yes.

[Lori Krieg]

Your biology. So I'll ask him, why are you a boy? Oh, because I have a penis. And because I have this complex. It's a little complex. I have the potential, the biological potential to help make a baby.

[Preston Perry]

Yes.

[Lori Krieg]

Now, five, that's a little tricky. But I have a penis. And he has a biological potential to make a baby. A natural biological potential. People who transition, women who transition to male never have that natural biological potential to make a. Help make a baby. What makes a girl? I have a vagina. I have breasts. I can get pregnant. A male who transitions to female can't.

[Jackie Perry]

Do none of those.

[Lori Krieg]

Never have a natural. I mean, the biology. Even if we somehow figure out to, like, I don't know, print it or something, you'll never naturally have a period.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Lori Krieg]

And do you hear how my voice is 10?

[Preston Perry]

Yeah. It's important.

[Lori Krieg]

People spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to make these transitions, to scratch the itch in their heart, to feel like they finally belong.

[Jackie Perry]

Yeah.

[Lori Krieg]

So I have grief that this is their goal. And honestly, sometimes when I walk with people for a while, you hear them name it as an idol at some point, and I just ask them, will it actually ever scratch the belonging need or the itch of your heart? And they say, honestly, Honestly, no. And we shouldn't say, gotcha. We should say, so I just wonder if you could, like, save a lot of money. Try Jesus.

[Jackie Perry]

Yeah.

[Preston Perry]

How do you. I guess. How do you walk with children who are wrestling through that stuff? Cause I feel like, you know, I had questions like that. Cause I didn't fit in to the stereotypical feminine model. You know, it was like, oh, you acting like a boy. You're a tomboy. Which actually reinforce certain things. Because I didn't know that I was acting a certain kind of way. I just was moving about the world, you know? But it was like, oh, am I acting like a boy? Right? Am I a boy? Am I? You get what I'm saying? Like, no one was affirming my femininity and my girlishness, which I think led to all types of stuff and I didn't have any space anywhere to go to think through. Through. That's complicated.

[Jackie Perry]

Yeah.

[Preston Perry]

Who am I? What am I? Like, how do you. If you're a parent with an 11 year old, a 10 year old asking these kinds of questions where. What do you do?

[Lori Krieg]

Can I ask you, how would that have felt to you to be told by a mom, aunt, friend like Jackie, I love your version of girl affirming.

[Preston Perry]

Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I probably wouldn't have went into the extreme of being a stud because I wouldn't. I think it, it just distorted my thinking about who I was and what I was made to be and how I was supposed to show up. And so I think it would have slowed down the pace of deception.

[Jackie Perry]

Are you saying not. Not only because people didn't affirm you, but they also. Also reinforced the stereotype that you're not a.

[Preston Perry]

They didn't affirm and then they planted lies in me.

[Lori Krieg]

Yeah, there you go. Two.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah. So you don't affirm that I am a girl, that I am feminine, and then you say you are masculine, you are acting like a boy. And then you add the sexual trauma, the homosexuality you create. They just say like I was, they pushed me into. I'm not saying it ain't my fault, like I, I made those decisions, but I think I was cultivated in the direction that I was sent into.

[Jackie Perry]

Absolutely.

[Lori Krieg]

And so didn't help.

[Preston Perry]

Nope.

[Lori Krieg]

So if your kid is struggling, I mean, help them to belong. We're always looking for places of belonging with their gender, with them as kids. You know, when your kids like rally and it's like kids versus the parents, some of that can be kind of cute. If it's like not, you know, sinister. And then belong with our family and belong with the family of God and then belong with the mission of God. Like you think about our kids whenever. If they're wrestling with same sex attractions, like thinking about taking the weight off of you have to get married and instead putting it back on. Your purpose is to push back the darkness and usher in the light.

[Preston Perry]

However. Yeah.

[Lori Krieg]

If they feel attractions towards the same sex, it's going to be like whatevs.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Lori Krieg]

My mission doesn't change. So I think belonging with their gender and their version, their family, family of God and mission of God is huge. But if your kid is really now 80% of kids, there's one study at least that shows they grow out of these dysphoric feelings by the time they're 25, majority grow out of it. So you don't need to panic. There's a small, teeny tiny percentage who really have something called diagnosable gender dysphoria. And that would take a professional like Matt to come alongside or people who are specific in dysphoria world to help walk alongside them. But here's what parents would see. Kids praying for their body parts to be gone or to grow body parts, when to cut them off. Like an intense self hatred over a long period of time. What would you ask of that?

[Matt Krieg]

Well, yeah, and I mean that bodily dysphoria piece, that having a strong dissonance against certain aspects of the body, usually genitalia or breasts for, for girls is just different than what you see with a social dysphoria where it's like, I don't fit the stereotype, I don't fit the mold. And I mean I know people who I have in my office who are grew up in a different generation and ended up transitioning. So they're like post op transgender people who are expressing like pain in some ways because of how something that they felt very acutely has become watered down and means something completely different than their experience. And so that's not to say that it's never easy. Right. Like I can have people who are completely cisgender heterosexual, meaning they're attracted to the opposite sex and then they have no dissonance with their own gendered body. And I asked them like, hey, who are you? If you're going to use non gendered language, like not just say I'm a boy. What does it mean to be you? What does it mean to be a boy? And it's hard for all of us to describe ourselves and our experience without the use of gender. And so this is not something to take lightly.

[Preston Perry]

Wow.

[Matt Krieg]

You know, but it's something that like with a 6, 7, 8 year old, if they are experiencing just the social dysphoria, it's helping them find out like what is the, what is the good things that make you tick?

[Jackie Perry]

That's good.

[Matt Krieg]

What is the positive? It's not just about, well, you don't fit in here and you don't fit in there. It's like, well, you're like Ark San. One of his chief like things that he just loves is togetherness. Now a lot, a lot of times the stereotype, at least about adult males is we're individualistic. And I forget the way the research said it that we become maturity is, is about individuation and impact. Well, our son is, is so Much about togetherness. Yeah, so much about like he longs for just the family to be. To be one, to be in the same spot and just to be uniform. That's an amazing thing that we could probably use more of as men in our culture.

[Jackie Perry]

It is.

[Matt Krieg]

You know, and for women like to call out the positives, to call out the things. Man, God made you unique. And that's a good thing for a good reason, a good purpose. It's not that you don't fit over here in whatever stereotype. It's that God has a unique thing that only you are suited for.

[Jackie Perry]

That's good.

[Matt Krieg]

That's really good. Whether you're a boy or. Or a girl.

[Jackie Perry]

Wow. Wow.

[Preston Perry]

Well, let us know a little about the project that being Preston participated in a couple. What was that?

[Lori Krieg]

March.

[Jackie Perry]

March.

[Preston Perry]

That was March. I don't know. I just know we showed up to a big old house in Buckhead, y' all asked us a bunch of questions about sexuality and kids and things. And I was like, ooh, yeah. Cuz it's. It's one thing.

[Lori Krieg]

March.

[Preston Perry]

I think so.

[Jackie Perry]

I think that was after our anniversary.

[Preston Perry]

Trip, probably because I'm tired.

[Matt Krieg]

End of March, beginning of April.

[Preston Perry]

Well, praise God. Tell us all about it. What's going on?

[Lori Krieg]

We were so grateful to have you guys and John Tyson and John Mark Comer and Kurt Thompson. All these people are seeing the need to equip parents, caregivers, grandparents, children's pastors of kids 12 and under with not a reaction to the world's garbage, but to lay biblical foundations. So the film project eight videos. And we talk about what's the gospel? How can we place a gospel identity. We talk about gender, marriage and singleness. Everything you heard here. I wrote the scripts besides the interview pieces with help from Preston Sprenkle and others. We talk about marriage and singleness. We talk about how to engage people with whom we disagree, how to engage systems with which we disagree, schools, libraries, you know, billboards. And then we talk about porn prevention and how to keep kids bodies safe.

[Preston Perry]

That's good.

[Lori Krieg]

This is all. I don't know any project that tackles all of these things in one video. Because as parents we don't have time to read 95 books and digest it and distill it into our kids. We don't. And so we're trying to equip you with that.

[Jackie Perry]

That's good.

[Preston Perry]

What's the talk about?

[Lori Krieg]

It's called raising kids. It's Christian sexuality, which you're part of the teenage version. This is for parents of young Kids. So parents watch it and we learn it so that as the embodied parents and caregivers and grandparents, we're teaching our kids.

[Jackie Perry]

And it's called Raising Kids.

[Lori Krieg]

Raising Kids. Yeah, Christian sexuality.

[Preston Perry]

I would encourage y' all who are listening because we'll link to Lauria Matt's book in the show notes in addition to that video resource. Get your people at the house, watch it together, talk about it, pray for each other, pray over your kids, like, even dialogue with this content in a community so you can strengthen each other and how to parent. Well, I think even trying to parent alone is unhelpful. We can't, you know, so we need each other in this.

[Jackie Perry]

And I just want to say that you guys are doing unnecessary work. God is using you guys in this space is very much needed, even for me. I've learned so much, been challenged, been convicted, even in this short conversation. So if you're a listener, be. Be in prayer for this couple, because God is definitely doing a work to you guys, and I know the enemy hates it. So be encouraged. Encouraged.

[Preston Perry]

In closing, do y' all mind praying over all the parents who are listening?

[Lori Krieg]

Yeah, I'd love to. God, I'm picturing the one moment mom or the one dad or them together, the grandparent, the children's pastor, the caregiver who's just looking at this world and they're feeling themselves freeze or want to fight back, but there's this tear in their eye that's like they truly love their kids and the next generation, but they're so scared and unequivocally so. God, I just thank you. I really just thank you for running it through these broken vessels of Matt and I and Jackie and Preston, God, to create these resources. And, Lord, I just pray whoever needs to hear it and receive it is able to hear and receive it and digest it, God, please, God, I just pray that they're able to understand it and equip the next generation. Not so that we follow the rules, but so that we live into your gospel flourishing. You created this world, good God, Sin messed it up. And Jesus, you're our redeemer. Will you help us to lead the next generation to not just follow your design, but love and treasure it, God, because it shows the world a picture of your heart for them. Will you do that, Lord? Thank you, Jesus. Amen.

[Jackie Perry]

Amen.

[Preston Perry]

Bye, y'. All. With the Perrys is produced by the Perrys with support from Amanda reed and Channing McBride. Video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley. Edited by the team at Tread Lively. Artwork by Hop and music by Swoop. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.