Podcast Summary

With The Perrys

Episode: Does the Church Need a Rebrand? A Conversation with Dr. Eric Mason
Date: September 15, 2025
Host(s): Preston Perry and Jackie Hill Perry
Guest: Pastor Dr. Eric Mason

Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the current reputation, function, and challenges of the modern church. Dr. Eric Mason, known for his theological insight and pastoral leadership, discusses his forthcoming book, “Rebranding the Church,” addressing why the church’s image and witness are in crisis and how Christians can move toward a more unified, mature, and biblically faithful expression of community, leadership, and identity. The conversation intertwines humor, vulnerability, and honest critique, offering thoughtful recommendations for believers navigating an increasingly fragmented Christian landscape.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Purpose and Meaning of “Rebranding the Church”

[01:42 – 03:05]

• Rebranding is not about redefining the Church. Dr. Mason clarifies that he’s not advocating for a total overhaul or yielding to progressive trends, but rather a return to fundamental, biblical representations of the people of God.
  • “For me, rebranding isn't like redefining... it’s representing the fundamentals of what the church should be doing.”
    (Dr. Eric Mason, 01:51)
• The negative cultural perception of “church” and “Christian” is concerning; people have expectations for Christians higher than any other faith community.
  • “I don't like that our reputation doesn't demand respect… when Christian comes up, it doesn’t.” (Dr. Eric Mason, 03:06)

Reputation & Witness—Pendulum Swings in Church Culture

[04:01 – 06:33]

• The church fluctuates between legalism ("holier than thou") and permissiveness (where "holiness don't mean nothing").
• A call to normalize spiritual maturity and unity over uniformity.
  • “We should normalize maturity... not busy trying to relate or disarm people by rejecting all standards.” (Dr. Eric Mason, 05:04)
• The influence of politics and social media has split the church, making political party a (misguided) marker for faith.
  • “We’re basing a litmus test for somebody... on political party. They said you'll know them by their fruits, not their political party.” (Dr. Eric Mason, 06:23)

Burdens that Led to the Book

[07:27 – 10:56]

• Dr. Mason’s past work (“Woke Church”) anticipated schisms along racial and political lines following tragedies like Trayvon Martin and Philando Castile.
• Reactionary faith and overcorrecting have led many to define themselves against what they dislike rather than toward Christ.
  • “We based our standard on what we didn’t want to be.” (Dr. Eric Mason, 09:23)
  • “If Jesus isn’t the standard, your father, your father is the standard... you’re just trying to reverse what your dad did, but your dad wasn’t the standard.” (Dr. Eric Mason, 10:02)

The “À La Carte” Faith and Essentials vs. Non-Essentials

[13:13 – 17:36]

• Dr. Mason observes Christians picking and choosing which doctrines and church elements to engage with—treating faith like “system settings on a phone.”
  • “I want my friends, but I don’t want Christian community... I want preaching that lifts me up, not that convicts me.” (Dr. Eric Mason, 13:36)
• The danger of elevating non-essentials (e.g., positions on non-salvific theological debates) to markers of salvation or fellowship.
  • “Let’s focus on the closed-handed things... I’m not arguing with you about non-essentials.” (Dr. Eric Mason, 15:54)

Critique and Correction—Gaslighting and Witness

[18:01 – 21:52]

• Not all criticism of the church is valid; sometimes rejection of the church is really rejection of God.
  • “A lot of the criticism is unavoidable... the church is a scapegoat to say 'I don’t want God.'” (Preston Perry, 18:01)
• Christians must discern when they’re actually failing in witness versus being unfairly maligned.
  • “If you’re gonna get persecuted, get persecuted for doing the right thing.” (Dr. Eric Mason, 18:50)
• Challenge to avoid deflecting accountability for sin and reframing “judgment” as loving correction.
  • “I hate when people frame lovingly holding them accountable as being judgmental.” (Dr. Eric Mason, 21:40)

Ecclesiology: What is the Church, Really?

[22:56 – 30:39]

• Church is more than informal gatherings or friendships—it is a spiritual family with structure, discipline, worship, and outreach.
  • “When you were united with Christ, you were also united with his people... that’s the part of the gospel that’s unpreached.” (Dr. Eric Mason, 25:41)
• Debunking “Starbucks ecclesiology”—not every fellowship is “church” in the biblical sense.
  • “That's not church. People use Matthew 18... but that’s not in the context of an official ecclesia.” (Dr. Eric Mason, 28:36)
• Don’t judge the whole church based on bad experiences, just as you wouldn't reject all doctors or restaurants after one poor encounter.

Rebranding Jesus—A Robust Christology

[31:05 – 38:46]

• Many Christians lack clarity on the person and work of Jesus, reducing him to personal preferences or roles (e.g., “my friend,” “way-maker”).
  • “We got to stop asking people questions that center on what they think about it. For instance, what does Jesus mean to you? Who cares?” (Dr. Eric Mason, 31:24)
• Warning against “reductionist” views—Jesus is both Lamb and Lion.
• The urgency for leaders and communities to return to the fundamentals in teaching, discipleship, and personal study.

Leadership & Discipleship—Character over Competency

[39:30 – 43:55]

• Church leadership should prioritize character, not just competency or giftings.
  • “Qualifications for leadership don’t start with competency. It starts with character.” (Dr. Eric Mason, 39:47)
• Many churches lack effective assessments of pastoral candidates’ character, leading to crises and shallow discipleship.
• Healthy leadership pipelines begin with a culture of discipleship:
  • “Leadership comes out of discipleship.” (Dr. Eric Mason, 43:15)

Spiritual Growth, Community, and Messiness

[44:03 – 48:32]

• Character growth is God’s work in us; our role is to seek the means of grace (community, Word, prayer).
  • “Spiritual growth is not your responsibility... your responsibility is going to the outlets that help you grow.” (Dr. Eric Mason, 44:53)
• Real community is inevitably messy—expect friction, offense, and the need for reconciliation, not “Kumbaya.”
  • “We have to set the expectation that you are going to get hurt here somehow... but you do not have the right [to withdraw].” (Dr. Eric Mason, 47:36)
• Need to distinguish between true trauma and normal relational difficulty.

Local Church Commitment vs. Influencer Christianity

[53:18 – 62:12]

• Social media shapes unrealistic standards for local church and leadership. Online influencers are not a substitute for real pastoral care and accountability.
  • “He not your pastor... He not giving an account for your soul.” (Dr. Eric Mason, 54:10)
  • “People need to be impressed with pastoral proximity.” (Dr. Eric Mason, 54:39)
• Dangers of “parasocial” relationships (one-sided online connections) and failing to judge “fruit” through genuine, lived interaction.
  • “If you judge an apple tree from 18 miles away, you're not going to judge it properly.” (Preston Perry, 60:17)

Testimonies of Discipleship and Family

[62:12 – 69:13]

• Preston and Jackie recount the grounding and accountability they received in their small church in Chicago—a model of true spiritual family over flashy programs.
  • “Our platform began to grow, but we were still pressing in and jacking... for me, it was transformational in that way.” (Preston Perry, 64:30)
  • “Legacy was a house church... None of the preachers were good communicators. So you also gotta humble yourself...” (Jackie Hill Perry, 64:30)

Rebranding Expectations of Church

[66:32 – 71:50]

• Encourage seeing church as family, not a spiritual vending machine.
  • “The church is truly a family... When you look at people like family, you don’t really think about yourself only all the time.” (Preston Perry, 67:16)
• Moderate expectations and recognize your own sin contributes to church mess too.
  • “We are also a part of the church that we are condemning or talking about.” (Preston Perry, 71:03)
• Align expectations with God’s metrics, not man’s, for both community and leadership.

Why Do We Need the Church?

[75:33 – 81:30]

• Church is not a human invention but a divine one, rooted in God’s communal nature.
• God intended his people to be a flourishing, united community—extending all the way back to Eden, through Israel, and now the church.
  • “Church is really an extension of God's community... local ecclesias are apostolic outposts of showing off the reality of what life is like when people submit their lives to God and lock together.” (Dr. Eric Mason, 78:01)
• “Plug and play” spirituality (picking and choosing elements from everywhere) is ultimately harmful, like using the wrong charger for a device.

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On spiritual growth:
  “No flower grows itself. ... Your responsibility is going to the outlets that help you grow; God adds growth.”
  (Dr. Eric Mason, 44:53)
• On messy community:
  “Community is messy... we have to set the expectation: you are going to get hurt here somehow.”
  (Dr. Eric Mason, 47:36)
• On church critics:
  “If you tell me you love me and you don’t like my wife, I don’t fool with you.”
  (Dr. Eric Mason, 81:28)
• On discipleship and legacy:
  “Sitting down doing heart checks with him... It was true accountability.”
  (Preston Perry, 64:30)
  “Our faith and our platform began to grow, but as it began to grow, we were still pressing in.”
  (Jackie Hill Perry, 66:31)

Calls to Action & Takeaways

• Pursue maturity and unity; normalize spiritual growth as a goal for all believers.
• Focus on closed-handed essentials of the faith; de-emphasize divisive non-essentials.
• Invest in local church relationships; resist the lure of influencer Christianity without proximity and accountability.
• Accept the messiness of community as normal and necessary for sanctification.
• Lead and serve with character, not just gifting.
• Remember: the church is God’s idea, not ours. Love for Christ must include love for his people.

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:51] - Why “Rebranding” and core issues
• [05:04] - The call to spiritual maturity
• [06:23] - The problem with politicized Christianity
• [10:02] - Dangers of reactionary faith
• [13:36] - "À la carte" Christianity and essentials
• [18:01] - Christian witness and cultural criticism
• [25:41] - Union with Christ and union with the Church
• [28:36] - Biblical definition of the church
• [31:24] - The need for sound Christology
• [39:47] - Character as the foundation for leadership
• [44:53] - Spiritual growth & the means of grace
• [54:10] - Proximity of pastoral leadership vs. influencer culture
• [64:30] - Legacy Church testimonies
• [67:16] - Seeing church as family
• [75:33] - Why the church is essential according to Scripture
• [81:28] - “If you don’t like my wife, I don’t fool with you.”—Christ and the church analogy

Final Thoughts

This conversation is a vital listen for anyone who’s felt disillusioned or confused about church in the 21st century. Dr. Mason and the Perrys offer not just critique but practical wisdom—calling every Christian to re-examine their expectations, return to the basics, embrace thick community, and pursue real maturity together. The ultimate “rebrand” is not about optics, but about faithfulness.