← With The Perrys
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. What's up with y'? All?
- [00:08]
B
It's the saints.
- [00:10]
A
Oh, my goodness. That is the raggedy. That's the Raggedy Saints. And ain't I've ever heard.
- [00:17]
B
It's terrible. So when y' all hear this, by. By the time it gets to you, I'll be healed.
- [00:23]
A
I will.
- [00:24]
B
I won't be on the sick and shut in list. But as it as for today.
- [00:30]
A
She ain't got it.
- [00:31]
B
I don't have it. But I'm glory. I'm grateful to God, so.
- [00:34]
A
Well, we thank you for showing up anyways. I mean, you ain't put your little makeup on today. You said scratch.
- [00:40]
B
Y' all getting concealer mascara out of me. Ain't no foundation. Ain't no. Ain't no. Ain't no setting powder. Ain't no pressed powder. None of that. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
- [00:50]
A
Got your little tea.
- [00:51]
B
Oh, I'm sorry. Anyways, you're gonna lead most of this conversation and I'll be here to support.
- [00:55]
A
Bet that up. Well, we have a special guest on the couch, our friend Justin Gibbety from the AND Campaign. The founder of the and campaign.
- [01:05]
C
Co founder.
- [01:06]
A
Co founder of the and campaign.
- [01:07]
B
He's humble.
- [01:08]
A
Sorry. The other guys who show Baraka and Angel, those are some good brothers. But man, you know, talking to you, especially in this season has always been a pleasure because we are. You're somebody that we respect greatly, you know, when it comes to faith in politics and merging the two. And you always come with a very non biased and just a fair biblical perspective, you know, and it's refreshing, you know what I'm saying? Which is the reason why we've supported the end campaign and partnered with you on multiple occasions or whatever. And so, man, in light of the political season, these last two political seasons, it seemed like Christians have gone crazy. Like, it's a lot of fighting, a lot of bickering.
- [01:53]
B
A lot of it don't seem a little calmer now.
- [01:57]
A
I feel like it's gonna get crazier. Maybe when this podcast comes out, it's gonna be crazier. Last season it was crazy, but I feel like it might get crazier. What do you think?
- [02:09]
C
Well, first let me say it's always a pleasure for me to be on with y' all today. I appreciate Preston sending me the memo about the camouflage. So we all match.
- [02:19]
B
We all going to war.
- [02:20]
C
So always a pleasure, man. I just am so appreciative of you guys witness and how you guys really just represent in a way that I think connects to people, is authentic and is a pleasure to be with you. As far as the political landscape right now, it's crazy. I mean, let's think about. We already had two assassination attempts.
- [02:41]
A
Oh, yeah, right.
- [02:42]
C
I mean, this is pretty crazy. We had a situation where you had one candidate on the Democrat side. That person gets replaced through a crazy process, if you want to call it that. I mean, a lot is going on, and I've been a little bit disappointed, but not necessarily surprised in how a lot of Christians have responded. Right. Election seasons in general, to me, can kind of become like, you know, Acts 19, the riot in Ephesus. Right. Where you have. Because you have all these interests, you have all these people with money and who are moving things around. So, you know, in Acts 19, you got Demetrius, who's a silversmith. He's like, man, my pockets are getting light. He gathers all these people around. He's like, man, you hear about this dude Paul. And so the silversmith, he was creating shrines of idols, and Paul was going around telling people, man, these idols ain't real. They're made with human hands. They're not valuable at all. Demetrius gets everybody together, goes out and starts a riot. The crazy thing about the riot, though, is the Bible says that there was all this confusion during the riot and that most people did not even know why they were there. Some were saying one thing, some were saying another. Most people didn't even, why are you rioting? And you don't even know why you're there.
- [03:51]
A
That's so like this society now. Like, people just be out just wanting to be a part of something.
- [03:55]
C
Just wanted. It's the herd mentality, wanting to be a part of something. But I also think, and this happens during election season, in our brokenness, we like to find a target and put all our pain and all our troubles on that target. Wow. So my target is the, you know, Vice President, Kamala Harris. She's Right now in this moment, she's the cause of all of my issues. Or if it's Trump, he's the cause of all of my issues. And I just dump and purge all. And in my. As they say, in my sanctified imagination, I imagine that may have been what was going on in Ephesus. And that's exactly what we do.
- [04:27]
A
Yeah. And I think for me, and I only want to make it about me, but I just want to briefly talk about me. I think that's one of the reasons why, you know, I've found politics very like. Like, not pleasurable. And it Seemed fake. And it just seemed like, you know, whoever can spin the narrative the. The best in their favor, you know, we can just dump all our frustrations on one political party and act like they're just the evil of all evil, you know? And it's like, we want to paint Trump to be, you know, this, and we want to paint Kamala to be this. And it just doesn't seem. It just doesn't seem like none of it seems real. You know what I'm saying? And so, like. Like, what would you say, you know, for the. For the Christian out there who just doesn't want to get involved in it at all, Just want to get that. I don't want to. I don't care. Like, we talked about Patrick Mahomes. He was like, I don't want to use my platform, none of this stuff. You know what I'm saying? Do you think that that's wise for a Christian to say, you know what? I'm going to kind of turn my back on it and just serve Jesus? Or do you think that we all should be concerned about politics in some way, shape, or form?
- [05:29]
B
Great question.
- [05:30]
C
No, that's a very good question. And, well, I'll say about Patrick Mahomes, I think he was a little more responsible because he was basically saying, hey, go vote. Do your own research. I'm not using my platform to endorse.
- [05:38]
A
Yeah.
- [05:39]
C
As far as a Christian who looks out here and says, man, they fake. This is not. You know what I'm saying? There is a lot. I mean, there's a lot of fakeness in politics. There's a lot of things that are corrupt, but it's still worth engaging. And the reason that it's still worth engaging is, honestly, politics touches everything that we do. So from what's in the food that your kids just ate, that's politics. That's. Who's gonna regulate that to what constitutes a crime? Yeah. It might be dirty, it might be ugly. It might be fake, but you still have an opportunity to have an impact on it, and so you have to go through it. And how can you be the salt and the light if you're not in contact with something that's dirty? Right. It's a reason to kind of be. To put it in perspective. It's not a reason to walk away because there's too much at stake.
- [06:25]
A
Yes. Okay. All right, all right.
- [06:27]
C
Just stay in there, man.
- [06:29]
A
Oh, my goodness.
- [06:29]
C
It's worth it.
- [06:30]
A
I have it all the way tapped out, But I'll be like, man, I'm Sick of everybody.
- [06:33]
C
And change can happen. Right. Like there's. I can give you example after example historically where people got together in an ugly place, you know, and when the scene was very ugly, the landscape was ugly and, and actually change something that saved people's lives or made their lives better and helped them flourish. So you change happened for real.
- [06:53]
A
That's good. The reason why I like your ministry and what the ANT campaign does is because I think that you guys do a really good job of in this, what can be a very confusing season for a lot of people and a very angry, frustrating season. I think that you do. You guys do a good job of making people like focus on like the things that matters, like the essential things that matters. Because we can get caught up in a lot of non essential stupid stuff. And you know, and it's just like you, you guys talk about things that really like impact the heart and mind. And so can you talk about the political abstractions and the like the Christian value, dignity piece that you talk about? Yeah, like you break that down and how we should think about this.
- [07:37]
C
So one thing, let me say this. I mean, we know that there's a lot coming at people and people have jobs, they have kids, they got church responsibilities that they have to take care of. Folks are not going to just be paying attention to politics. And most people shouldn't just be paying attention to politics. But when you don't, it's hard to filter out what is real and what's not and what really matters because you have all these messages coming at you. So the and campaign does it is part of our mission to say, hey, I'm gonna be the nerd that's reading policy and watching all these every single debate and looking at people's legislative history. And let us break that down for you as a part of your due diligence as you get ready to engage politics. So that's one thing that we try to do and to kind of further. I think what you're talking about is our civic revival where we've created like these 10 disciplines where we've gone around the country. And I was at a conference with you not too long ago, basically telling Christians, hey, here are some disciplines that you need to get through this election cycle in a constructive way, because we can't. I mean, I would love to come to y' all and say, man, Christians have really been the model of what good politics and civics looks like. I would love to say that, but y' all would know I'd be lying, right? We really Just reflected what the world is and brought it into the church.
- [08:54]
A
I feel like back in the day, it used to be that, like, Christians were the frontrunners of.
- [08:59]
C
I mean, when you look at the civil rights movement and things like that. Yeah, I think we have. We come from a legacy of people who engaged politics in the right way. Unfortunately, I think we haven't done that as of late. And really, that's not about what policies you support. That's really about a spiritual disposition. And so when we talk about these disciplines, it's saying, hey, you can't just wake up in the morning and say, I'm gonna do different. I'm be better after we've put out this terrible public witness. You have to have habits and practices that put you in the spiritual disposition along with prayer, obviously, to respond in a better way to issues that are really serious. And here's the whole thing. We're talking about life or death issues. So none of this is. Are small things. We still can't act like politics is everything. Right. That it's ultimate.
- [09:45]
A
Yeah, absolutely.
- [09:46]
C
We know it's not.
- [09:47]
A
Absolutely. Can you break down number one of the disciplines?
- [09:51]
B
You're doing a great job.
- [09:55]
C
I'm just glad you're here with us. I appreciate where you are now. Last week.
- [09:59]
A
So I get Christian value, human dignity. We must understand that the person is made more. More than whom we voted for. What do you mean by that?
- [10:15]
C
So our first discipline for the civic revival is seeing people and not political abstraction. And there's a sister named Chloe Valdari that does a really good job talking about this. And basically what we're saying is we tend to think that we know somebody by how they voted. So if you voted for. If you voted for Biden or if you voted for Trump or somebody else, I know everything about you. Right. I know whether I should hold you in contempt. I know whether I should show you grace. I know how you feel about this race or that race. When the truth of the matter is based on how somebody voted, you don't know all that much about them.
- [10:49]
A
Yeah.
- [10:50]
C
You know, these are people dealing with the human condition just like you are. If you don't have a relationship with them, it is sinful to assume that you know everything about them and that you can treat them in contempt. Right. These are people dealing with sickness, I mean, insecurities, everything that you are. But we tend to feel like, if I know your profile, I know you and what you.
- [11:10]
A
Why do you. Why do you think that is? I've noticed that. Why do you think that is. Do you think that. That people are just, like, shallow, or do you think that it's more tribal? Like. Like what. What. What makes us, like, think that way when it's true?
- [11:28]
C
I think it's tribalism. I think it's a shortcut that we use to say, if you're not with us, then I know you're all the way on the other side and you can't be trusted. Right. And so that's basically what it breaks down to. And let's be honest, we all know there's this kind of myth that there are only two ways to engage politics. Right. Like, two legitimate ways. Either all the way progressive, all the way conservative, and if you don't fit in one of those, you're either unserious, indecisive, or deceptive. Right. So you say one thing that the conservatives don't like. Now you're a Marxist. Now you. All this stuff. You say one thing progressives don't like, now you are with the bigots and all that stuff. And it's just false. I mean, there are a number of ways to come at any given issue.
- [12:11]
A
Yes.
- [12:11]
C
Not just two ways to come at any issue. And so we have to keep that in mind. And I can show you thousands of examples in history where both sides got something wrong.
- [12:22]
A
Yeah.
- [12:23]
C
So if somebody would have the prophetic voice and independent voice to say, nah, y' all both getting this wrong, we might be in a better place than we are today. So I just. I urge people not to fall into that I gotta be progressive or I gotta be conservative stuff. And in doing that, we often dehumanize each other and think we know more than we do.
- [12:41]
B
Is there a biblical text that could, I guess, motivate people to see people as people and not as abstractions?
- [12:49]
C
Yeah, I mean, I think it starts in Genesis. I think you gotta look at the fact that we. We all have the image of God. And not only that, I think you even have to look at. We can look at the praying Pharisee in Luke where he was probably right. So he's looking at this tax collector and saying, man, I'm happy. I'm not like this dude. And tax collectors were bad people. So he's not necessarily wrong about this dude's impact on society. These were people who were cheating their own people, exploiting their own people, and sending some people into debt slavery. Yeah, this was a bad dude. But what he didn't get was he was bad too. Right. And so he said, thank God I'm not him, but the tax collector, like, I'm not even worthy to be here right now. The tax collector walks away justified. The Pharisee walks away. Doesn't walk away justified for exalting himself. And too, too often in politics, we exalt ourselves to say, man, those conservatives are so bad. Those toxic evangelicals are so bad. I don't want nothing to do with them. I'm glad I'm not like them.
- [13:52]
A
Yeah.
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C
And what God's telling us is, hold up, bro. It's not that simple.
- [13:55]
A
Yeah. Yeah. And that's the thing that. That's frustrating to somebody like me because it's like, I don't. I don't. I don't care to be on either side, and I'm not a tribal person like that. I like to think that I'm a very free thinker, and I like to think for myself. I don't like for people to think for me. And there's. There's things that I find problematic on both sides. And I feel like you guys. The end campaign, you guys do a healthy. You guys do a good job of critiquing both sides, which I think is healthy.
- [14:25]
C
Yeah, we try to do that. I mean, we take a lot of critic criticism for it, too.
- [14:28]
A
Yes.
- [14:28]
C
Because some people would say, well, you're standing. You know, you're standing on the fence. You don't want to take a position. But I completely disagree. To us, it's not about taking a side, taking one of these two flawed sides. To us, it's really about taking the right position.
- [14:44]
A
What's the difference?
- [14:45]
C
So taking aside means to say, you know, Trump is so bad that I'm gonna agree with everything the progressives say, okay, what happens when we start talking about gender identity, abortion, all that? What you gonna do now? Now you got to stay with them, even though they may be wrong on something, and you may be right about the right. But now, because I chose a side, I got a side with them, or defended or just not talk about it.
- [15:06]
A
Right.
- [15:06]
C
That's what we do. I hate Trump so much that I can't talk about none of the stuff going on on the left.
- [15:11]
A
Right. I literally.
- [15:12]
C
Sinful.
- [15:13]
A
Yeah. I literally got into an argument last political season for that very same thing with somebody that's very close to me who. Who's, you know, solid Democrat, you know, in the political world. And I was on my stories just kind of critiquing both sides and just saying. I think that a lot of times, you know, God is somewhere in the middle. Right. You know, and, you know, he just kind of got mad at me just straddling the fence. And I was like, why does that have to be straddling the fence?
- [15:40]
C
And I don't even think it's straddling the fence. I mean, sometimes it's not in the middle. So I will say this. There are people who strive to always be in the middle because they're trying to avoid conflict. Right. I do think that's wrong. There's nothing inherently virtuous about being in the middle. But when you have two parties, one that doesn't think racism exists and doesn't want to talk about racism, then another one that says men could get pregnant, I might just happen not to be on one of those. Like, I might be in the middle of that somewhere. Not because I tried to be. Because they're both so extreme and absurd. And so for us, it's not about trying to be in the middle, but it's realizing that if one side is right about 99 things, that 1 thing they're wrong on. As a Christian, I gotta call it out. Yeah, that's true. I can't just let it go just because they're more right than the other side. That's good. That's not how this works. So we always talk about. It's not about taking a side. Because when you just take a side, you're basically outsourcing your public witness. Whatever side you take, their influencers, the custodians of that culture, are really the ones deciding what you believe. You give up too much by choosing the side you choose. And we saw this in the civil rights movement. Take the right position. If you're not taking a position, that's a problem. Take the right position. And whatever side that may end up on. I don't know any scripture that tells me I got to be on a certain side. It does tell me I got to be in the right. Right position considering justice, considering my moral convictions. And neither side is good enough for me to give them all that.
- [17:10]
A
Yeah. What would you say to the person. This can be a very controversial question, but we don't care. What would you say to the person that you have to be Christian.
- [17:22]
C
Or.
- [17:22]
A
To be, like, to be, you know, a Republican. And if you're a Democrat, it's impossible for you to be a Christian because of all of the things that the Democrats supports that goes against biblical values.
- [17:33]
C
Yeah. I mean, I can just point to too many orthodox, faithful Christians who see it very differently throughout history. I mean, when you're talking about conservatism, you're talking about a group of people who got the civil rights movement wrong, who got slavery wrong. I think they have some room for a little bit of humility because to me that sounds very arrogant. We get things so right that you can't possibly be on that other side. The other thing I think that gets wrong is because some people care about voter rights, some people care about racial. They care about. Their list of priorities may be a little bit different than yours. It doesn't mean that they're not faithful. And you gotta be very careful on telling people that that means they not a faithful Christian. Right. It's a bit extreme. So that's one thing they get wrong. The other thing that they get wrong is a party should not be your identity anyway. So while I have. Was raised in a Democratic household, have, Was a Democrat, you know, most of my life, I'll vote for the best person. The party's a tool for me. The party is not part of my identity today.
- [18:34]
A
That's good, Jasper.
- [18:35]
C
I take on what's going on, you know, what they're doing.
- [18:38]
A
I almost threw my phone at your head.
- [18:40]
C
It's a. If I'm in a place where it's better for me to be an Independent or Republican and Democrat, I might do that because I don't care. I'm trying to do the good work.
- [18:48]
B
That's good.
- [18:49]
C
It doesn't matter what team I'm on. That's my tool. Too often we make that our identity. And what happens when it's our identity? We got to defend it regardless.
- [18:57]
A
Absolutely. Because I think both parties do a really good job of painting one party to look like something else. And I say disrespectfully, I think people on both sides, whether you're Democrat or Republican, conservative or liberal, you start to be used as a puppet if you just listen to one side about the other side. But when I see, you know, people like you in the and campaign, I'm like, you guys, you guys are known Democrats, but at the same time, you still celebrate.
- [19:25]
C
We have some Republicans at independents too, but yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, people know that I've been in Democratic. I was in Democratic politics.
- [19:31]
A
Right, right. And so I think that people automatically think about Democrat. Oh, you guys support abortion, but you guys actually, you know, like, like protect really from the womb to the tomb. But you, you, you, you, you're not necessarily for, for these things or whatever. And so like, I, I think, you know, just having that, that mindset that, man, no, this is a tool. This isn't my, my religion. This isn't something that I hold to is. I think it's a healthy distinction.
- [19:54]
B
Can I ask a question?
- [19:55]
C
Go ahead.
- [19:56]
B
Because I. I think abortion rights, and so I think that's a huge thing, as it should be. Like, the Lord created life and loves life and we should protect life. And so I gu. How. And I'm saying this neutrally, people, but I can see how people could be like, I just don't see how you could vote for a party that kills babies. Like, I just. I just don't see how that's a thing. Would you say that that's a position that they've just taken and that's okay for them to feel like I can't get over that?
- [20:28]
C
Yeah.
- [20:29]
B
You know.
- [20:36]
C
I think it's a bit of an oversimplification of the. Of the issue. So I think if I have no problem with somebody saying abortion is my number issue, and that's the issue that I'm gonna look at first. But if you ignore all the other issues, you're acting like abortion is on an island and that that's the only. There's no other issue that affects it. So most women, if you ask them, a good number of women, if you ask them why they have the abortion, I can't take care of the baby. Well, what other policies play into her mindset and her situation that might make it a better situation to where she doesn't feel like she has to have an abortion? I might want to pay attention to some of those issues too. I might also look at how people are treating people when they're alive. The unborn life is very important to me. The un. The unborn life is not the only life that's important. And I think that's what we can miss when we just focus on one issue. But I'll say this. As far as a lot of Christians who lean left, some of my peers, the way they've gone along with the my body, my choice, and haven't said, now there is another body there. God cares about that. You can't just bring something into the world and just act like it's not there. I've been very disappointed in a lot of Christians who lean left, who are Democrats, who just go along with the narrative and don't question to say that's an oversimplification. There's something else there too, that matters. And so we can't just go along with the secular narrative because that's what our secular peers are doing. So there's disappointment in both those. But to me, the Issue isn't what party you choose. The issue is if you don't stand up against that party when they get something wrong, that's good. So I think a Christian can be a Democrat. I don't think a Christian can be a faithful Democrat and have nothing to say to the Democrats when it comes to abortion, when it comes to the sexualization of children. If you have nothing to say, if you want to win so bad that you won't say anything to them, or you want to get favor or you want to get recognition so bad that you won't say anything to your side, that's a problem if you're Republican. I don't think the problem is you being a Republican. The problem is if they talk bad about immigrants, if they mistreat the poor, and you have nothing to say about it if you don't push back on that, that's where the problem is. The party's just a tool, like I said before. So the problem is, are you taking the right stances and standing up for what you should be, or are you just kind of going along and outsourcing your public witness?
- [23:00]
A
Yeah. And I think that's what Christians, I personally feel like, I feel like every Christian should have pushbacks on both sides if we are true believers. Because God cares about way more than what our political party cares about. We are very narrow minded and God isn't Right. God care about, you know, the whole, like, can we talk about, like the, like finding identity in the virtue and virtue in the other side. Can we talk about that? Because like, a lot of times, you know, it's hard for people to admit there's good in the other political party. Right.
- [23:31]
C
That they get something right.
- [23:32]
A
Yeah. That they, that they, they get it all wrong. But as a Democrat, how do I respectfully say, man, no, I, you know, I. And the reason why is because me, me and I'm gonna be honest, me and my friend. Well, my pastor, I had an. A couple of months ago and we were going to the mall right before our event, and me and my pastor Philip, we was going to the mall. And right before we got in the mall, in the court, in the courtyard outside, there were drag queens with third graders. And they like literally was like walking around with the third graders, teaching them to respect their body, saying, my life, my choice. And it made me angry. I'm gonna be honest with you and me, you know, like, my family is not historically Republican. Right. My mama is a Democrat. Like, my grandma's a, like all of these people. Right. And I I don't really adhere to, like, neither. But at the same time, it's like, I've had. I've had criticism about Trump in the past, you know, and about, you know, how he doesn't respect, you know, like, people. It's not even his policies. I just think that he doesn't respect people, you know. But at the same time, when I saw that, I was like, yeah, I'm with the Republicans with this, you know, as. As well as abortion and stuff like that. And so I'm not afraid to say no, I got a problem with this, too. And so what would you say about people who. Who have a problem with identifying the virtue on the other side?
- [24:57]
C
Yeah, I would say this. Like, so, for one, I think it's good that you're feeling that tension. I don't worry about Christians that feel the tension. Like, I can't really get with all the stuff they do. I can't get with all the stuff the other side does. That's a good tension to be in. Cause neither of them is a pure application of the gospel. They're not even. They don't even present themselves as a pure application of the gospel. But we treat them that way. And so it's good to feel that tension. I'm more worried about Christians who don't feel any tension at all. And especially during election season, you look at a lot of Christian leaders, you don't see any tension. You see them rooting for the other side, just like, in a really sycophantic way. And it's just like, show me that you feel a little bit of a tension, that they don't get everything right. And that if we just fully give our support to one side, that we could go wrong. So I just say that to say it's good that you feel that tension, to get to the ability to see virtue on the other side. What I wanna make very clear is this isn't us saying, oh, it's all the same, everybody's good, it's gonna be okay. No, these are real issues. And the sides are not equal on any given issue. And we need to be real about that. We don't wanna pull the. It's all good, you know? Cause that's an easy way out to not really have to make a decision. So that's not what we're saying. But what we are saying is if we got good theology and we believe in the fall, we know anything touched by human hands is flawed, seriously flawed. I would say both of these ideologies are almost mortally Flawed if you take them to that extent. So if we know that, then we have to admit we don't get everything right. And if we look at history, there are people who can be wrong on a lot of things, but once again, they can be wrong on 99 things. As a Christian, on that one thing that they get right. We gotta admit it, even during election season, we have to be impartial. The Bible talks about being impartial. That means holding up the same standard to both sides. So if I think this side gets a lot wrong and they get that one thing right, whether it be on abortion, whether it be on poverty, whatever, I need to say, they actually do well with that. So what that means to me is to say if I'm being conservative, I should be able to look at the idea of inclusivity and say, I might not take it to the extent that the progressives do, but I can look at the church and see when we weren't inclusive of just of people not theologic, but of people, that we really went wrong when we weren't letting, you know, other races have power and sharing power, that was a problem. So I appreciate that there's some people in society, even if they take it further than me, that care about that.
- [27:31]
A
That's good.
- [27:31]
C
If I lean to the right, I think you should be able to say, you know what? But I'm glad there's some people that are talking about the sanctity of life. Would I really want to live in a culture that had no regard for life at all? I can appreciate that they do that. And when they get it right, I'm admit they get it right.
- [27:47]
A
That's good.
- [27:47]
C
I might not take it to the same extent. I might not have the same conclusion. But being able to admit that they get something more right than we do is. I mean, it's humility, but it's also our ability to critique ourselves.
- [28:02]
B
You know, something that that is coming to my mind is that I think I can imagine that a Republican or a Democrat with wisdom would have some tension, but they wouldn't express that publicly because of the vitriol that could come their way simply by being honest. And so even how does somebody even deal with the fear of expressing that tension? You know, because they might actually have it, but they're afraid to say it because it's like if I say it then now they think, you know, I hate babies, or they think I love, you know, pronoun. Like, yeah, like that's the thing.
- [28:35]
C
I mean, I think it's part of The Christian life. It's part of discipleship. I think we have to ask ourselves, when we don't say something we know needs to be said, what are we protecting and who are we protecting? We ain't protecting the gospel. Right. We're saving ourselves. We're saving our own lives. And that. That doesn't make it easy. But I take heart in the fact, you know, I look, anytime I feel that tension and I'm like, man, should I do this or not? I just. I just think of the civil rights generation and the threats that they were faced with and their ability to stand 10 toes down in the public square and say what was right and wrong, knowing that they could get lynched for it.
- [29:10]
B
That's cool.
- [29:11]
A
Wow.
- [29:11]
C
If they could do that, if, you know, Fred Shuttlesworth gets his house bombed and the next day goes out and still goes forward with a bus boycott, then I can say something on social media that somebody might not like.
- [29:23]
A
Yeah. I can honestly see this conversation and the things that you're saying frustrating for some people. Yeah, right. And the reason why is because I think, unfortunately we live in a society, especially in the world of social media, where it's just more convenient to choose a side instead of dealing with nuance.
- [29:42]
C
It's just.
- [29:43]
A
It's just more convenient because. Because one, I think society and social media doesn't. Doesn't force us to think. Right. We want, like, it's more convenient to have somebody think for us and to just say, vote this way, vote that way. And so what would you say to the person who's holding attention, who's being programmed in their way, who's listening to this and saying, okay, I get what you're saying, but what size should I pick? What is the less of the evil, less of the two evil, which one is more evil than the other?
- [30:15]
B
Do you even agree with that framing? Do you think that's a good discernment tool?
- [30:19]
C
I get what people are saying by that. I don't want to say I don't get it. I get what people are saying. I see so much corruption on both sides or whatever, it's hard for me to make a decision. But I think we have to dig in. And like I said, one thing I recommend people to do, make a list of your 10 top issues, put them in order and see where the different candidates or the different parties fall on that and use that. But what I want to tell you is so many people, see, we have this thing that I call opposition centered politics. And so once we find that person, we think is really bad. We just do the opposite of what they do. That's problematic, though.
- [30:57]
A
Yeah.
- [30:58]
C
And I think just choosing a side is problematic. When Jesus comes onto the scene, he knew that the Pharisees were legalistic.
- [31:07]
A
Yes.
- [31:07]
C
He talked about the Pharisees being legalistic, but he didn't just say, well, they're legalistic. Let me go ahead and be a Herodian, because I don't like them. And that's what we see that all the time. People in toxic evangelicalism come out of it, start to see the flaws in toxic evangelicalism, and they run into the arms of secular progressivism. Wow. They think themselves free thinkers, but they're actually just going to another system of beliefs.
- [31:32]
A
Yeah.
- [31:32]
C
Another side of another extreme.
- [31:34]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [31:35]
C
Only because they're not familiar with that extreme's flaws. Now, I'm from Denver, Colorado, very progressive, went to Vanderbilt University. Very progressive in Atlanta, Georgia, with y'. All. Very progressive. I've. I thank God I've been able to see the flaws of that and not get so giddy that there's another team that I can go to once I find the flaws with toxic evangelicalism.
- [31:57]
A
Yeah, that's good.
- [31:58]
C
And I pray, even for a lot of our friends, I pray they see it soon because it's there. You're just not familiar with those flaws. And that's the difference.
- [32:06]
A
Yeah, yeah. Explain media hygiene.
- [32:10]
C
Yeah.
- [32:11]
B
You want people to brush their teeth.
- [32:12]
C
Justin, In a way, you often refer to that, Proverbially refer to that.
- [32:17]
A
So that's a very interesting term, media hygiene. What is that?
- [32:20]
C
So media hygiene is the idea that whatever we're inputting into our system, whatever information I'm getting and where I'm getting it from is going to form what my opinion is. So if I'm getting my information out of the trash, then my opinion is going to end up trash.
- [32:38]
A
Boo. Boo.
- [32:39]
C
Exactly. So basically what we know is we all have this tendency towards wanting information that confirms what we already believe. It's confirmation bias. So I don't really want to go to sources that say something that I don't already think. I want people to tell me what I already believe so I can get. Because we just get a feeling. It's like. That's exactly what I was saying. The problem with that is when you just go to sources that tell you what you want to hear or tickle in your ears, you're not getting the whole story. You're not getting the best of both sides. And so I always recommend to people, make sure that you are following people on the other side that you can say that you don't necessarily have to agree with them. You can say they're wrong, but you can say they're intellectual and they're intellectually honest. So they're smart and they're acting in good faith. If you don't know anybody on the other side that you can say is smart and acting in good faith, that's not the other side's fault. That's your shortcoming.
- [33:33]
A
Wow.
- [33:33]
C
Because they're there, you don't have to agree with them, but you at least need to know what they're saying. So you know the best argument on the other side and you're not just arguing with characters and misrepresentations. That's really good what we're doing.
- [33:45]
B
I would imagine that that would mean, you know, if you have someone who's a proponent of Fox News or cnn, like diversifying your intake, in a sense.
- [33:56]
C
Diversifying your intake. But I would go so far as to say turn off cable news.
- [34:00]
B
Okay.
- [34:01]
C
If you're getting most of your information from Fox News or msnbc, you're misinformed.
- [34:07]
A
What should they get?
- [34:08]
C
Because it's not good information.
- [34:09]
B
What makes you say that?
- [34:11]
C
Because, I mean, it's a. I watch.
- [34:13]
B
Food Network, so I don't be doing that.
- [34:15]
C
The model for the way that they give information isn't good. It's all about bringing you back. Yeah, right. And so their focus on bringing you back is a lot of propaganda. I mean, if you look at the charts for bias, Fox News, MSNBC are extremely biased. So if you're getting your news from a biased source, this is why everybody's so up in arms and has no sobriety. Cause they think there's nobody on the other side that has anything to say.
- [34:38]
A
So what sources should people be looking at? Like, what are some credible sources on both sides that can give people a more well rounded view of the political culture?
- [34:49]
C
Yeah, I would say the pour over is a good one. So that's like a Christian source that gives you a balanced view of both sides. I like Breaking Points. Breaking Points is a podcast and they bring on people from both sides that are actually giving the best argument, not the person that y' all can just throw, you know, tomatoes at all day.
- [35:08]
A
Okay.
- [35:09]
C
Unherd is a really good one. And again, these aren't people that I always agree with. Some of these people aren't Christian or anything like that, but they are being intellectually honest and they're talking about things that you'll never see in primetime media.
- [35:23]
A
That's Good. That's the beauty about podcasts and the way media is done now. We don't have to just go to the tv and they can also go to the. And campaign.
- [35:31]
C
And go to the. And campaign. You got the Church Politics podcast.
- [35:35]
A
Yeah, yeah, that's good.
- [35:36]
C
Yeah, for sure. And then another one is the Free Press. Those are probably four. How many I gave you? Four or five. That you can depend on if you want to hear the best of both sides of the argument.
- [35:48]
A
Yeah, I can see this being scary for people because it's like you want to be intellectually honest, but there's so much social pressure in even looking like there's some legitimacy on the other side. There's so much bullying that can happen, you know, and so, like, this stuff is just. It can be hard.
- [36:09]
C
Yeah, it's definitely hard. I mean, if I could tell you the amount of texts and emails and stuff I get just from people I know when I say something they don't like or goes against their side, you can't really prevent that. But I think what you can do is show people the best of your ability that you're trying to be. I can't always please you, but I'm gonna do my due diligence and I'm gonna be objective to the best of my ability. And when I get something wrong, I'm going to admit it. And I've had to do that before. Right. You get something wrong sometimes, so that's really all you can do. You can't please everybody.
- [36:34]
A
What are the pros and cons of the political party? Having a black woman for being in a race now opposed to Joe Biden in the last.
- [36:42]
C
I think for the election as a whole, it makes it a more. Even more polarized election. It's one thing where you had two white men, and that was polarizing enough. Now to bring a black woman into it, you bring race into it even more. And I think we've seen some of that. And so the attacks on her are going to be, you know, are going to be stronger on that from that side. And I always also think the defenses of things that probably shouldn't be defended or be there coming from us sometimes more than they should. And so I would just urge people, as much as you can, try to be impartial, try to weigh the issues more than the profile of the person. It's not easy to do. But I think in community and if we're deliberate, we can make it happen.
- [37:27]
B
What would it look like? Cause you say community, I feel like the last Election season. This was disruptive to a lot of church communities.
- [37:35]
C
Oh, yeah.
- [37:35]
B
Like, it was just destructive to church. And I really believe that was the enemy. How can a community come together to talk through these things and pray for people and all of that in a way that still cultivates unity as a church while at the same time serving like America?
- [37:55]
C
Yeah, I think we just talk about Christian principles. I don't think we necessarily need to always tell people how to vote. People can make their decision, inform them, do what you can to inform them, and then focus on the principles, how we should care about the poor. You know, what do our moral values have to say to a particular issue while understanding that we don't force our morals on everyone, our morals on everybody else. Right. This is a democracy. We don't impose that. We try to persuade people. The biggest thing I would say, though, is helping people understand that it's good to advocate for issues because we have neighbors who need us to be advocating for them. But the best way to advocate for an issue is not to tell the other side how stupid and evil they are. In a democracy, you have to persuade people. So having a public temper tantrum every other day actually isn't getting that done. It may be doing a disservice to the issue or the people that you claim to be protecting. How do we show courtesy and kindness to the people that we're arguing against, our opponents while still being tenacious? And that's the beauty to me of the gospel. It allows us to be gracious and also have that tenacity. Again, we have proof of concept. This is not just Justin talking and theorizing. We can look at the civil rights movement. That's exactly what they did. They didn't have to cut somebody out to take them to task for what they were doing. We don't have the moral imagination right now to be able to do that, but that doesn't mean it's not doable.
- [39:25]
A
Yeah, that's good. Yeah. And I think also, too, just fighting to see people like you guys talk about that. I think that it would like, you know, when you. When you don't see people and you only see politics, when someone shares their story, you won't hear a testimony, but you'll see a position.
- [39:42]
C
Yeah.
- [39:42]
A
And I think a lot of times that's what. That's what happens. We often see people as the tribe that they're a part of and not. Not realizing that this. This older black woman in your church congregation is probably voting this way because she has some serious Concerns. Right. And it's not. She's trying to be a Marxist or she's not trying to be, you know, a critical race theorist, but she's. She has some concerns about her grandson. You know what I mean? Like, and so, like, if we don't do the hard work of seeing people and seeing stories, I think that we'll miss a lot that we can learn from people in our church. Right. I think about John 9, when Jesus heals the man. I talk about this all the time. It's one of my favorite passages. Jesus saw him, it said. It doesn't start off with Jesus healing a blind man. It starts off with Jesus seeing a blind man. And the Pharisees came later on in the story and wanted to kick this man out of the synagogue because it had already been said, someone says, this man is the Christ, they'll be kicked out of the synagogue. They walk up to this man and says, who is the Christ? Since he opened your eyes? They didn't walk up to him and say, were you blind? And now you can see. I want to. I want to hear your story. They didn't. They didn't care about a story. They just. They just cared about where he landed on the side, what side of the law he landed on. And I think a lot of times we, as Christians, we. We act like that. We don't care about stories. We want to know who you're voting for. What are you.
- [41:05]
C
Once we have our team, once we have our narrative, it becomes a rivalry.
- [41:11]
A
Absolutely.
- [41:11]
C
And we're in more so to the rivalry than the merits of the case in front of us. Then the person who's hurting, we want to prove our narrative is right. We want to prove our team is good rather than actually taking care of the people that are right in front of us. I think that that's. That's absolutely right. That's a good.
- [41:27]
A
Yeah.
- [41:27]
B
I was just going to speak to Ephesians and how. I think in seasons like this, a read through Ephesians, like in one sitting would be helpful, just because you know how it says there's no Greek or Jew or Gentile, and y' all know what I'm saying, Male or female, we're all one. And I think some people have a view of unity that means, like, everybody has to look the same to be united. But Ephesians is actually saying no. Like, where there should be disunity because of the spirit of God, there's actually unity. Right. So if you're a Democrat, if you're a Republican, if you do this. If you do, how do we still, like, move in the direction that the Holy Spirit already sealed, which is. Which is our oneness, you know what I'm saying?
- [42:06]
C
Like, that's really good. And it doesn't mean that your opponent isn't wrong. Yeah, right. It just means that there's something bigger than that and that you possibly might be wrong or something, too. So I don't want people to feel like it's acting like everything's okay. It's not about acting like everything's okay. God unifies us in spite of all that. All that. And I just don't see sometimes a commitment from Christians to that, especially during election season.
- [42:28]
A
That's good. That's good.
- [42:31]
B
Do you pray for these people?
- [42:34]
C
Which people? Which people?
- [42:36]
B
People in positions of authority. Because I saw in the list that that's one of the tenets of this, is to pray.
- [42:43]
C
Yeah, I do try to pray. And we put that into the disciplines to pray for your political opponents. It. And the reason for that is the Bible says it. Right. Pray, you know, but also, it's very hard to hold somebody in contempt and hate somebody who you're earnestly praying for. Right. I think the Spirit. You know what I'm saying? The Spirit works on you, and you see it differently because again, somebody can be very wrong, but they're not irredeemable. And so we should pray for people not just in precatory prayers, you know, that fire would rain down on their heads, but that they would have good judgment and that they. Their actions would be redemptive.
- [43:21]
A
Yeah.
- [43:22]
C
I think that's really important. Sounds simple, but it's really important. Yeah.
- [43:26]
A
Because the Bible tells us to pray for our leaders. It even goes as far as to say, pray for your cruel leaders. Yeah. You know, which can be a very hard thing to do, especially when our society teaches us to hate one side. But it's like, no. Like, we have to pray for people who are in positions of power, that God will soften their heart. And we serve a God who can soften any political party we like. He can do it. And so ultimately, our hope has to be in God, man. Before we get out of here, can you just educate people and tell people what is the end campaign? What is your goal and your mission, and why did you start it?
- [44:03]
C
So the and campaign is a Christian civic organization. Really, what we want to do is raise civic literacy among Christians so that they know how to engage in a better way. Way. That's number one. Well, that's one of it. Part of It. And then we want Christians to be less partisan and less ideological and focus more so on biblical principles. We think party and ideology aren't necessarily bad. Right. They're part of the process, and you can be in a party, but when we focus on them too much, they divide us unnecessarily. And one thing that Christians have to realize is we have some allies outside of the church that have an interest in the church being divided. Right. And so we have to keep our eye on, even if some in the church aren't doing what they're supposed to do, how does God say we should be relating to them, even as we might have to oppose them on certain things? So that's. We want. We want Christians to say, hey, let's look at these principles because that's what we have in common. And let's apply those principles as we fight for our neighbor. And then sometimes we'll realize all the partisanship and ideology isn't even all that necessary.
- [45:08]
A
That's good.
- [45:09]
C
And so the end campaign is trying to do that. And we do it through a number of ways. Obviously, a lot of content, workshops. You know, we have our Christian Civic Leadership Academy, all those things, trying to get Christians engaged in a better way and really in a more faithful way, because our public witness does not belong to the Republican Party. It doesn't belong to the Democratic Party. And really, our public witness doesn't belong to us. It belongs to God. What does that mean? Even during an election cycle?
- [45:37]
A
Yeah, yeah. And another good thing that you guys do is I've always, you know, this, but I've always loved the whole project. The whole life project.
- [45:45]
C
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [45:45]
A
That you guys. That you guys do, you know, really celebrating like, the whole of human life and protecting the whole of human life, you know, and so not just only being concerned with the child that's in the womb, but the mother and the father that's in the womb. Because a lot of times, especially in African American communities, a big thing that leads to up to abortion is, you know, fathers not being present.
- [46:08]
C
Yeah.
- [46:08]
A
Well, thank you, brother.
- [46:09]
B
Thanks, Mr. Gibbon.
- [46:10]
A
Always good to have you so informative, man. Follow the and campaign. Follow Justin Gibbety on shout out your.
- [46:16]
C
Instagram so people can follow you on Justin E. Giboney. Justin E. Gibbon.
- [46:22]
B
And we'll make sure we put all the resources Justin mentioned in the show notes.
- [46:26]
A
So, yeah, peace.
- [46:27]
B
All right, y'. All with the Perrys is produced by the Perrys with, with support from Amanda reed and Channing McBride. Video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley. Edited by the team at Tread Lively. Artwork by Hop and music by Swoop. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.