Mourning, Meekness, and Mercy: Part 2 with Matt Chandler

Summary

Podcast Summary: With The Perrys – "Mourning, Meekness, and Mercy: Part 2 with Matt Chandler" (May 4, 2026)

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Episode Overview

In this episode of With The Perrys, hosts Preston Perry and Jackie Hill Perry continue their exploration of the Beatitudes with guest Pastor Matt Chandler. They dig into what it means to live like Jesus by discussing mourning, meekness, mercy, and related attributes. Drawing from personal experiences, biblical insights, and real-life stories, they unpack the profound, often countercultural teachings of Jesus and how they play out in authentic Christian living. The tone is honest, vulnerable, and sometimes humorous, making deep theological concepts accessible and practical.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. Blessed Are Those Who Mourn (00:08)

• Multilayered Mourning: Chandler highlights mourning personal sin and the world's brokenness. Mourning persists as a lifelong process for Christians.
  • Quote (Matt Chandler, 00:14): “The first thing you mourn... is your own sin. And that doesn’t stop...”
• Space for Lament: The modern church often skips lament in favor of positivity, but the Bible encourages sitting with grief and letting God comfort us.
  • Quote (Matt Chandler, 01:40): “Most churches make no space for lament. It’s always a pep rally, never a funeral... Ecclesiastes says that it is better to go to the house of mourning than it is to the house of feasting...”

2. Mourning Well: Practices and Consequences (02:23)

• Lament Services: At Chandler’s church, they host a two-hour lament service every December to intentionally create space for mourning.
• Consequences of Avoiding Mourning: Suppressing grief creates distance from Jesus and inhibits intimacy in our relationship with Him.
  • Quote (Matt Chandler, 04:06): “The consequences of not mourning is distance from Jesus.”
  • Quote (Matt Chandler, 04:33): “You’re creating distance from the comforter by pretending...”

3. Mourning and Christian Intimacy (05:41)

• Transparency Strengthens Relationships: Vulnerably sharing our sadness fosters intimacy, both with God and with each other.
  • Quote (Jackie Hill Perry, 05:57): “Your transparency about your sadness then strengthens the relationship.”
  • Quote (Matt Chandler, 06:02): “You’re describing intimacy, right? Isn’t that what we’re after?”

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4. Blessed Are the Meek (06:14)

A. Rethinking Meekness

• Not Weakness, But Strength Under Control: Chandler and the Perrys challenge misconceptions about meekness, using Moses and Jesus—both known for their strength and courage—as biblical examples.
  • Quote (Matt Chandler, 07:22): “There’s only two people in the Bible called meek... Moses and Jesus. And if you look at those brothers... Strength under control.”
• Horse Analogy: Chandler likens meekness to a small child controlling a massive horse with a bit—great power restrained and directed.
  • Quote (Matt Chandler, 09:03): “Meekness is that... strength under control.”

B. Practicing Meekness (10:15)

• Self-Restraint: Knowing you have power but withholding it out of wisdom and mercy.
• Confidence and Stewardship: Meekness is internally confident, not seeking external validation.
  • Quote (Matt Chandler, 14:48): “Meekness is confident in the spirit in me... Stay low and stand up.”

C. Inheriting the Earth (16:25)

• Meekness and Inheritance: The meek inherit the earth because they are most like Jesus—self-controlled, humble, and trusting God for justice and reward, not seeking their own.
  • Quote (Matt Chandler, 16:31): “The inheritance of the earth is the promise to all of those who ultimately become like Jesus.”

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5. Hungering and Thirsting for Righteousness (18:31)

• Right Relatedness: Chandler clarifies that this isn’t about moral perfection but being in right relationship with God, self, and others.
  • Quote (Matt Chandler, 18:40): “He’s not talking about legal standing... He’s talking about right relatedness... between us and God, between us and us, between us and others.”
• Ordering Life Around God: True hunger for righteousness reorients priorities; it’s not just longing for church, but for God’s presence throughout life (20:22).
• Freedom from Needing Approval: Secure in Christ, we don’t need others’ validation.
  • Quote (Matt Chandler, 21:19): “If I don’t know who I am, then I need y’all to tell me who I am. And now we’re not rightly related.”

Classic Psalm Connection (23:39)

• The hosts and Chandler align this Beatitude with the Psalms, highlighting David’s deep longing for God as a model (e.g., Psalm 73, “Whom have I in heaven but you?”).

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6. Blessed Are the Merciful (28:10)

• Mercy as a Challenge: All agree mercy is difficult, especially for those with strong justice instincts.
  • Quote (Matt Chandler, 28:36): “Mercy’s hard, man... It is the one I have to trust the Lord the most with.”
• Jesus as the Ultimate Example: Story of Peter cutting off Malchus’s ear (29:17) illustrates Jesus’ active mercy. Jesus restores a man who came to harm him, ensuring he isn’t barred from Temple service (29:55).
• Why Being Merciful Is Hard: Mercy often requires relinquishing the desire for vengeance and instead requires dependence on God.

Mercy and Poverty of Spirit (32:55)

• The Beatitudes “start to dance” together—being merciful drives us back to humility, recognizing our own need for mercy.

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7. Blessed Are the Pure in Heart (33:35)

• Purity as Honest Vulnerability: Chandler stresses that purity of heart isn’t moral flawlessness but honest transparency with God and others.
  • Quote (Matt Chandler, 34:05): “Pure of heart is just being honest about where your heart is. It’s not in the bar where the make believe... To be confused is pure in heart if you’re saying to the Lord... I don’t understand.”
• Childlike Faith: Embracing not knowing and running to God as Father allows more genuine prayers and relationships.
  • Quote (Jackie Hill Perry, 37:37): “It’s giving childlike faith.”

For Leaders (38:17)

• Chandler shares as a leader that purity of heart involves owning his uncertainties and being honest with God and trusted confidants, especially when shifting theological convictions or facing relational difficulties (39:49–41:46).

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8. Blessed Are the Peacemakers (44:02)

• Peacemakers vs. Peacekeepers: Peacemaking is active and sometimes requires hard, risky conversations born out of love, not comfort or avoidance.
  • Quote (Matt Chandler, 44:27): “You can keep peace by staying out of it... Peacemaking is a love for the person willing to risk the relationship for fear of their harm or desire for their good.”
• Deep Relational Investment: True peacemaking brings God’s presence into conflict situations—a marker of being God’s children (46:36).

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9. Blessed Are the Persecuted (48:58)

• Reality of Opposition: Jesus includes persecution because it’s inevitable for those pursuing righteousness.
  • Quote (Matt Chandler, 49:12): “Well, because it was coming for us...”
• Clarifying Mission and Motive: True persecution refines motives and shakes selfish ambition out of ministry life (52:29–53:19).
  • Quote (Perry, 53:03): “Persecution has a way of sifting out selfish ambition in a way that I think is necessary if you’re called to do gospel ministry.”
• Suffering and Church Growth: The church historically grows in power and number under real, not superficial, persecution (55:18).

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10. Sanctification, Community, and Slow Growth (56:41)

• Chandler’s closing word:
  • “Deep work over time, in community.” Spiritual formation requires honest wrestling with God, patience for slow growth (“one degree of glory over a decade”), and belonging to a committed community rather than consuming disjointed religious content.
  • Quote (Matt Chandler, 57:02): “Deep work over time, in community. It’s the only way to be formed.”
  • Quote (Matt Chandler, 59:00): “Content doesn’t change anybody’s life. Content will not transform you without the power of the Spirit... and the Spirit has chosen to use other people to sanctify and to help us. You can’t do it on an island.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Lament: “Most churches make no space for lament. It’s always a pep rally, never a funeral.” (Matt Chandler, 01:40)
• On Transparency: “Your transparency about your sadness then strengthens the relationship.” (Perry, 05:57)
• On Meekness: “Meekness is strength under control.” (Matt Chandler, 09:03)
• On Mercy: “Mercy’s hard, man... This is the one where I have to trust the Lord the most.” (Matt Chandler, 28:36)
• On Purity of Heart: “Pure of heart is just being honest about where your heart is.” (Matt Chandler, 34:05)
• On Peacemaking: “Peacemaking is a love for the person that’s willing to risk the relationship for fear of their harm or desire for their good.” (Matt Chandler, 45:19)
• On Spiritual Growth: “There is no spiritual bypass. There is no... you might get a night where you get two degrees of glory, but you ain’t never getting 10. It’ll kill you.” (Matt Chandler, 59:09)
• On Community and Belonging: “God’s never called you to go to church. He’s called you to belong to a group of people.” (Matt Chandler, 58:05)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:08 – Mourning and the Christian life
• 02:23 – Practices for mourning well
• 04:06 – Why suppressing mourning creates distance from Jesus
• 06:14 – Introduction of meekness; biblical and practical examples
• 09:03 – Horse analogy of meekness
• 14:48 – Meekness as confidence and restraint
• 18:40 – Hunger and thirst for righteousness
• 28:10 – The challenge and depth of mercy
• 33:35 – Purity of heart as honest vulnerability
• 44:02 – Peacemaking vs. peacekeeping
• 48:58 – The necessity and refining power of persecution
• 56:41 – Closing word: Deep work, time, and community

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Closing Shepherding Advice

Deep Work, Over Time, In Community (57:02+)

• Go beyond surface-level Christianity.
• Give God time—sanctification is slow but sure.
• Don’t try to grow alone; true transformation happens in committed, honest community.

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For Listeners:
This episode offers both comfort and challenge, blending relatable struggles with pastoral wisdom. Whether you’re wrestling with grief, learning self-control, struggling to show mercy, or seeking genuine growth in your faith, the conversation provides not just practical steps, but a vision of wholeness rooted in Jesus’ own example and teaching.

Transcript

[Perry]

Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted. So there's people that cry all the time.

[Pastor Chandler]

Yeah, well, it's. I think it's going to be multifaceted. The first thing you mourn, if you think about when you became a Christian, when you surrendered your life to Jesus, the first thing you mourn is your own sin. And that. That doesn't stop even as you continue on in, like, I mean, I've had some significant repentance and mourning over sin in the last several months, even in my own life. I'm 33, 34 years in the game. And so there's this one layer. I'm mourning my own sin. Then there's another layer where I'm mourning the sinfulness and brokenness of this world, where my heart is grieved. I look around and see the name of Christ mocked and belittled. I see indifference towards his glory. I see perversion in a heartbreaking level, and my heart is grieved. I am mourning the state of the world, and those two tend to dance together. I've got my own personal mourning. So I'm not outside of this thing. I am, in some ways, positionally, I am. And then I see the state of the world, and I'm grieved by it. I don't choose to harden my heart so that I'm not grieved by the evil and brokenness of the world, but I mourn and lament it. Which is, again, we were just saying earlier that most churches make no space for lament. It's always a pep rally, never a funeral. But Ecclesiastes says that it is better to go to the house of mourning than it is to the house of feasting, and that the wise will tell, take that to heart. And so there needs to be space for us to mourn, not just our own sin, not just the brokenness in our lives and in the lives of those we love who are around us. But there has to be a way for us to look at the world that we're in. And maybe it'd be smart to shrink the world you're in a little bit and mourn the perversity and brokenness of our world.

[Perry]

How have you seen people mourn? Well.

[Pastor Chandler]

Well, are organizationally churches or individuals any

[Perry]

story that the Lord.

[Pastor Chandler]

Yes. So one of the things we've tried to do at the village is we have this service called Encounter. That's like a prayer healing service, but every December we change it to a lament service. We know that if you've Lost loved ones. If it's a really difficult, then you're feeling it in a unique way in December. And so it's a two hour long lament. Yeah. Not. Not hype, not, you know, quieter songs, slower cadence. Sit in it, create space for weeping. So we'll do that every December. I think people who mourn well are people who are willing to actually enter into the sadness and not try to quiet the sadness. Which is easy to do with Netflix or doom scrolling or there's a thousand ways. Alcohol, drugs, you can numb it in a thousand ways. But the mourners who get comforted, they lean into the morning, they lean into the heartbreak and comfort's found there again, not bypass through it.

[Jackie]

Kind of goes along with my next question. What would you say to the Christian who feels like, no, we should be happy, we're Christians.

[Perry]

I can see people like, I'm tuned in to learn how to be like Jesus. I did not know.

[Jackie]

So sad. And the Christians just say, Jesus, what would you tell that Christian? What is the consequences of not mourning?

[Pastor Chandler]

Yeah, I think the consequences of not mourning is distance from Jesus. Break that down.

[Jackie]

Gotta break that down.

[Pastor Chandler]

I think that. And this is the way I start the book. Jesus doesn't want any distance from you. Nothing. It's the best offer you're ever gonna get. He wants all of you. Mind, body and soul. That's what Jesus came for. All of you. All of life. For all of life. You don't want no distance.

[Jackie]

Yeah.

[Pastor Chandler]

You pretend or you put some layer on you that you've gotta be happy even when your heart is breaking. Well, what have you done? Well, you've created distance from him. You're pretending that he can't hold your sadness. He can't hold your disorientation or disappointment. And so then like think about foolish. This is. And I want to speak to prophetically because I like you are creating distance from the comforter by pretending again. It's that USC cheerleader. It's you just lost the game and you feel like you gotta jump up and you just lost. And she's in the air. Right. It's like that's that nonsense is everywhere in church. It's an over realized eschatology.

[Jackie]

Yeah.

[Pastor Chandler]

That's what it is. Oh, that day's coming. There's a day coming.

[Jackie]

Wow.

[Pastor Chandler]

But it ain't now. Yeah. In this world I will have trouble. How do I take heart? Because he's overcome the world.

[Jackie]

Yeah.

[Pastor Chandler]

But if I'm like, there ain't no trouble in this world, Lord.

[Perry]

Yeah.

[Pastor Chandler]

Then I'm creating distance from him.

[Jackie]

Yeah. And it also. I think it also. That's really good. I think it also strengthens the relationship.

[Pastor Chandler]

Absolutely.

[Jackie]

How much a relationship becomes strengthened when we enter into our friend's suffering? If I was sad all month and my friend just walking around with smiles like, bro, you not sad. I'm sad a little bit. It's like, bro, I've been crying, and you just over there just eating chips, laughing. It's like.

[Perry]

Or even to develop it out, even your transparency about your sadness then strengthens the relationship.

[Pastor Chandler]

You're describing intimacy, right?

[Jackie]

Yeah.

[Perry]

Yeah.

[Pastor Chandler]

Isn't that what we're after? Intimacy first?

[Jackie]

Peter says that's what we enter into. Christ sufferings. Yeah.

[Perry]

Yeah.

[Jackie]

So that's good. That's really good. Wow.

[Perry]

Made me want to sit on that for a sec. I can go farther, but I won't. Blessed, we can. I'll probably cry, blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. Meekness, we all know meek was. Well, I'll say this the other. Probably last month, I just randomly, I've been trying to work through Exodus as best I can. And I don't think this is Exodus, actually. It might be numbers. I don't know. When Moses, when Miriam and Aaron came in his face about him being with the girl. And the Bible says it just chooses to say that he's meek at that point. And that was just so interesting to me because it's like you got your siblings coming at you for who you decided to marry, and we're dealing with someone who has no problem killing people. So it's like his meekness is on display because he does not pop back out. Like, he prays. And it said, like, the Lord saw it. Then it gives Miriam, leprosy, all the stuff. And so I think meekness is often assumed to be passive. Meekness is often assumed to be weak. But it really, genuinely is a strength that only the Holy Spirit can produce. So let's talk about it.

[Pastor Chandler]

Well, and then there's only two people in the Bible called Meek.

[Sponsor Voice]

Who?

[Pastor Chandler]

Moses and Jesus. And if you look at those brothers, I mean, Jesus will flip a table on you.

[Sponsor Voice]

Yes, he will.

[Pastor Chandler]

You know, he'll put together a whip.

[Perry]

Yes.

[Pastor Chandler]

And drive people out. And that wasn't. No. I think when people think. Think Temple Mount, they think like, this basement we're in, man, that thing was acres and acres. I mean, he drove out thousands of people that day. It was not some, like, little room he cleared. I mean, it was acres. And then Moses, I mean, he already brought Up Moses. The only two guys, I mean, challenged Pharaoh, you know, call the Levites to who's on the Lord's side? Go kill your brother, meet me back here. We gotta purge this thing. I mean, a man who had no trouble with violence is one of the two called meek in the Bible. So especially where it's put in the story, meekness is strength under control. It's that idea maybe we just alluded to on blessed are the poor in spirit, where I'm low, but I need to stand up and be who God's called me to be. I'm low, but I need to walk in what God's given me, fulfill the call of God in my life. That's meekness. It's strength under control. The illustration I use to start the chapter is my daughter. My oldest daughter got into horses and rodeoed. She barrel raced. And here's my. She's the smallest of the three Chandler babies. I mean, tiny, but she'd get on the back of this 1200 pound mammal and just make it do whatever she wanted it to do. All because of this little piece of metal, 3 inch piece of metal in the horse's mouth. It was bidded and therefore controlled. And so meekness is that it's strength under control.

[Jackie]

Great analogy.

[Pastor Chandler]

I don't need to like, I know I'm a force of a personality. I know I am. That's not pride. That's not, I am a. I got something. You know yourself, I know me, and I can power up and get done almost anything I want to get done. But meekness is, am I really the smartest one to decide this? Meekness is. Who else needs to weigh into this? Meekness is I don't need to attack this brother that's attacking me. Meekness says I can be quiet even though I'm more than likely smarter than beyond that. And this man's probably a fool, but I don't need to tell him he's a fool. That's meekness. It's a different kind of lowliness. Where low in spirit is lowliness before God, meekness is kind of more lowliness before man. But not doormat. Not doormat, not spineless. Because you wouldn't be able to say that about Moses. You wouldn't be able to say that about Jesus. Strength under control.

[Jackie]

Yeah. Yeah.

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[Perry]

you got something to say?

[Jackie]

I have a lot to say because somebody gave me a word a couple of years ago that meek. Meekness.

[Perry]

Meekness is your strength.

[Jackie]

Meekness is my strength. And I didn't know what they meant when they sure. When they told me that, I was like, I still really don't know what they mean.

[Pastor Chandler]

I was about to ask you, do

[Jackie]

you know, I do think that God has given me a lot of boldness. I think God has given me a lot of strength to endure a lot of things. I think I've meditated on how much I failed, which is the reason why I don't feel so when people call me meek, I don't see it. And I'm not even saying that to sound fake humble. I just don't. I just don't see it. You know what I'm saying? And so it's just interesting the way you broke that down, especially the horse analogy, because I've ridden a horse and I've felt how powerful a horse is. And this little thing in his mouth, when I pull back, it hurts. And so he has to stop. And so I think you even giving me that language kind of helps me understand the meekness that God kind of wants me to walk in. And the meekness I have walked in and I didn't realize it, if that makes sense. So I don't really have a question. I think I'm just processing it.

[Pastor Chandler]

Yeah, no, I think that's good.

[Jackie]

It's a really good analogy because I think it helps the believer to see, no, God has given you a lot, but if you don't know how to tame that, you won't be effective in your community, you won't be effective in your marriages, you won't be effective in the relationships around you. If you have this strength of a bulldozer, but you're just knocking walls down, you know, instead of, you know, building something significant.

[Perry]

It seems like meekness is. I'm sure there's many levels to this, but like stewardship of yourself in a way. You know what I'm saying? Cause what comes to my mind, you've probably seen it. It's this clip of like this dude and this other dude at a game. And the one dude is arguing with the. Like he's.

[Jackie]

Have you seen that?

[Pastor Chandler]

I don't know. Keep talking.

[Perry]

I'mma show it to you. He's talking crazy in this dude face. Like disrespectful.

[Pastor Chandler]

Oh, I have seen it.

[Jackie]

But he's like a fighter looking like a pit bull.

[Perry]

And dude smiles at him and walks away. And then you see this montage of the dude that walks away is a boxer, meaning he could have knocked his head off. And I think meekness is like that. Like he was stewarding what he knew he could do and restraining himself one. Cause he got a lot on the line if he knocked this dude head off. But also it's a mercy to the other person. And I think even when I think of my personality, there's a lot I could do. But I need to be mindful of myself and others to just serve the moment.

[Jackie]

That's really good.

[Perry]

Even if it cost me what feels like respect.

[Jackie]

So, so, so would you say that because when I. Because when the dude walked away, you know, somebody. Somebody might say he's scared, but when he walked away, he had a smile on his face of confidence.

[Pastor Chandler]

Yeah.

[Jackie]

You say meekness is confidence.

[Pastor Chandler]

Meekness, that's a. That's a great illustration. Meekness is confident in the context of the Beatitudes. Confident in the spirit, in me and what he's called me to and how he designed me. Yeah. So I am. That's that. Remember, stay low and stand up.

[Jackie]

Yeah.

[Pastor Chandler]

And so my poor in spirit is. I'm beggarly. I have nothing to bring here. And then in that posture, I'm grieving my own sin. I'm seeing the brokenness of the world. I'm being provoked by it. And now I'm moving into Meekness, because I understand who I am. I'm low. I'm not the solution to the pain I see in me and the world, Right? I'm not. There's someone who is. It ain't me. And then. Now, meekness is. I've got certain strengths. I've been built a certain way. I've been woven together in my mother's womb for the days that he had for me been uniquely placed, Acts 17 times and boundaries, so the men might seek him and find him, though he's not far from any of us. So I always tell people at TVC and anybody listening, you know, I know the Lord probably wants to save somebody on your street because you're there. And somebody at your work might come to know him because that's where you work, right? That men might seek him and find him, though he is not far from any of us. Well, he ain't far from any of us because you're there. And so now I'm getting a sense of who I am and what I am. And now I'm freed or restrained by the Spirit in me in my engagements.

[Perry]

That's good.

[Pastor Chandler]

I'm freed or restrained by the Spirit. And wisdom and sanctification is learning the prompting of the Spirit to smile and not punch that guy's head off. That's great, right? Not punch that. And then maybe there'll be a time the ghost like, yeah, go ahead and knock that fool. Go ahead and get it right. Maybe that. Maybe that day comes.

[Perry]

Why is it that inheritance of the earth is given to the meek?

[Pastor Chandler]

Well, the inheritance of the earth is the promise to all of those who ultimately become like Jesus. Right. The earth is the Lord's and the fullness therein. And then what you see in the Book of Revelation is that we reign and rule alongside of Christ in a physical, literal, remade heaven and earth, not in the clouds playing a harp like the Tom and Jerry cartoon. Like literal physical bodies reigning and ruling in a new heaven and new earth.

[Jackie]

I don't know why I just thought about even that question that Jackie just gave to you. Because I love Philippians 2. 5, let this mind be in youn, which was also, you know, about humility, but then as it relates to meekness, Right. We don't see no greater picture of meekness than Jesus on the cross with the power to literally call down angels, and they're mocking him, and he chooses not to use his power, but he dies. And that thief on the cross, I think you just preached on this. You know, he said, today you'll be with me with paradise, you know. And so I think that, like, man, he inherited like the earth by being next to the most meek man who. Meek man who ever, like, walked the field.

[Pastor Chandler]

No question. Remember, he tells Peter, do you not know that I could call out to my Father and at any moment have at my disposal 12 legions of angels? You just see one shot.

[Jackie]

That's some meekness for you.

[Pastor Chandler]

That's meekness like, look, this ain't. Ain't nobody arresting me. I'm going, yeah, that's good. Nobody's killing me. I'm going, that's good. That's different.

[Jackie]

That's really good.

[Perry]

There is a particular way in which this is a task for women in marriage, you know, to. To be meek and to be gentle and to be quiet. And how. I think it can feel like you're losing something to do that. You know what I'm saying? So I'm just. I'm just, I guess, encouraged by the idea of God is like, no, you're not losing. You're gonna gain everything. Like, you're not losing anything. Your pride, namely. And so I'm just encouraged by that.

[Jackie]

That's good.

[Perry]

Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be sat. I have this one on my mirror. Talk to us about it.

[Pastor Chandler]

What's interesting, I love this about the way the game Jesus is playing here, righteousness. He's not talking about legal standing there. He's talking about right relatedness. And so blessed are those who hunger and thirst for right relatedness between. Here's the way I argue in the book between us and God, between us and us, between us and others. And here's what I think is beautiful about that. I cannot know me outside of knowing him, so I will never fully understand me. I will always be trying on new clothes, if you will, without an intimate relationship with the Lord. I cannot understand me completely without Him. And so right relatedness with God helps me rightly understand myself, which now gives me all the opportunity in the world to be rightly related to others. But if I don't know who I am, then I need y' all to tell me who I am. And now we're not rightly related. And now there's gonna be all sorts of drama on that horizontal plane, all because I have no idea who I am, because I don't know who he is. And so really, in this one, I love this one because this is where, like, reality starting to break in in a new way where I am rightly related to God. I'M hungering. I've got all those same psalms in my heart. I'm longing for him like men and women in the Bible long for him. I'm longing for his presence. One thing I ask on all that I seek is that I might dwell in the house of the Lord all the days of my life to gaze upon the beauty of the Lord, to seek him in his temple. Right? That's the banner over my life. I'm hungering and thirsting. I'm, like, starving. I want the feast of your presence. So I'm ordering my life around that it's not just like to hunger and thirst is to be moved toward. So it's not just, oh, man, I can't wait for church. It's, no, no, no. I'm orienting my life around his presence. That's good. I'm hungering and thirsting for it. Everything else isn't satisfying me. So I'm hungering and thirsty. And then that step now helps me understand me. And then when I understand me, now I got a shot of loving you freely. I don't need you to define me. I don't need you to let me know I'm good. I don't need you to. I don't need your applause and I can hold your criticism.

[Jackie]

That's good.

[Pastor Chandler]

But if I don't know who I am because I don't know who he is, well, now I'm fragile. No matter how much strength I'm presenting, I'm fragile. And so you could take from me. I might even pretend that you didn't and then just go cry myself to sleep. Right? So to me, the hunger and thirst for right relatedness takes the pressure off people who think Jesus is talking about moral perfection.

[Perry]

Here I thought that's what it is.

[Pastor Chandler]

He ain't talking about moral perfection.

[Perry]

That's why you gotta study the text.

[Pastor Chandler]

Study the text. This. It's right relatedness, not moral perfection.

[Perry]

Wow.

[Jackie]

The righteous man is a free man.

[Pastor Chandler]

That's right. Yeah.

[Jackie]

So that's a dope perspective. Because it's more about freedom. It is more about freedom with Christ and others.

[Pastor Chandler]

And again, it just keeps going back. Like Jesus and the beatitude is just like, hey, just come be with me and say yes when I ask.

[Jackie]

That's really good.

[Pastor Chandler]

Just come be with me and say yes when I ask. And here's your inheritance.

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[Perry]

Would you say that this connects at all to the psalm? I think you said your grandmother liked the psalm, where it's like, no, no one on earth I desire besides you or something.

[Jackie]

I think it's psalms. Who do I have my heart?

[Pastor Chandler]

My flesh may fail, but God is my portion.

[Perry]

Would you say it relates to that?

[Pastor Chandler]

Yeah, I think David's onto it.

[Perry]

Yeah.

[Pastor Chandler]

Yeah.

[Jackie]

Who do I have in heaven but thee? But there is none on earth, I decide beside thee. For my heart, my strength will fail. But God, you are the strength of my heart.

[Pastor Chandler]

So there's David living it out, Right. Hungering and thirsting for righteous. How long, oh Lord? That's the same kind of prayer like I want to, like as the deer pants for water. So my soul longs for you. I know we like to slap that on a coffee cup, but he's anguishing for the presence of God.

[Perry]

Yeah.

[Pastor Chandler]

Any.

[Perry]

Yeah.

[Pastor Chandler]

I mean, he's just like, angsty. I need you. Yeah, you're the thing. You're the thing, the thing I need.

[Perry]

And I think that to know that they shall be satisfied is really. I think that incentivizes some level of hope.

[Pastor Chandler]

Yeah.

[Perry]

Because it's like the Lord does hear me. The Lord will respond. I'm not talking to the air, I'm not crying alone. I'm not fasting and doing all the things and I won't get some reward, primarily him, you know what I'm saying? And so I think to know.

[Pastor Chandler]

And the hunger. The hunger pulls you forward. It pulls you forward. It really does. That's both experiential and I think I could argue textually, like throughout the Bible, like, I'm always drawn to angstiness. That's just my personality. Like, the more angsty you are, the more I like you. Like, I don't need you to be funny. I don't need you. But if you're angsty, I need that. I like my music angsty, I like my people angsty. And I love. The Bible's just filled with angsty men and women who want him and are longing for him and are being pulled forward by that longing. It's like the hunger and thirst for right relatedness with him is the very thing creating right relatedness with him. That's the thing. So you two. I'm an old head man, I'm 51. You two wrote a song years ago, Bono lyrics, and I still haven't found what I'm looking for. And if you go read the lyrics to that song, he's like, look, I've spoken the tongue of angels. He lists all these things that might look like Christian maturity to us. But then he says, but I still haven't found what I'm looking for. And I think what he's getting at, maybe I'm just reading onto him, is this. There's only so much of him we're gonna be able to hold in this container. I mean, one of my most consistent prayers is as much of you as this can hold. I want it. And so sometimes pain is him expanding the capacity to hold. Suffering is expanding the capacity to hold. But to me, not only will I be filled, but maybe I'm being filled even in the hunger. You know, I write about that some in that chapter where men. The hunger itself becomes kind of delight, the eagerness to experience them becomes part of the pull. And so again, I get geeked out about that one in particular.

[Sponsor Voice]

How would you encourage those who are

[Perry]

in seasons where they've fallen and are falling and they aren't hungry anymore, but they want to be.

[Pastor Chandler]

So here's what's great about the Lord. It's as simple as just saying that to the Lord. That's how. Like now, if you're saying, I don't wanna be, I'm fallen and I'm not. Then that's a whole different conversation. That's a rebuke. But a man. I've fallen. I've made a mess of my life. I'd love to be hungry again. I would love to be. I'm just always telling everybody, man, you just take that straight to the Lord. He will delight in hearing that from you. And we watch the Father scanning the horizon for the prodigal son. We see, I mean, over and over again in the scripture, the Lord moves towards. That's why I frame to the book with. Jesus doesn't want any distance from you.

[Perry]

Yeah.

[Pastor Chandler]

And so if you think you got to clean yourself up before you can come back, you kind of miss the point.

[Perry]

Yeah.

[Jackie]

Yeah.

[Pastor Chandler]

He's the one that washes clean. You ain't the one that washes. You're always the passive recipient. In the scriptures, when something's getting washed, you ain't the washer.

[Sponsor Voice]

Hello.

[Pastor Chandler]

So, yeah, that's good.

[Perry]

Blessed are the merciful. I don't really like this.

[Pastor Chandler]

That's a hard one. I don't care for it either.

[Perry]

I submit to.

[Pastor Chandler]

But I'm being straight. I try to obey it, but it ain't always easy.

[Perry]

I'm not a merciful person. Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy. Talk to us.

[Pastor Chandler]

I don't know. You guys want to talk about this one? We can skip it.

[Jackie]

I'm a sponge right now. I've been soaking all of this in. I'm really excited to hear you talk about this one.

[Pastor Chandler]

Mercy's hard, man. It's hard for us if you've got a justice bent in you. It is the one I have, experientially. It is the one I have to trust the Lord the most with. You pick any of those other ones, and I'm like, no, no, no. I've tasted and seen that. He's good in it. This is the one where I'm like. Like, just waiting.

[Perry]

Yeah.

[Pastor Chandler]

Just waiting. But Jesus is the perfect example of it. So it makes sense that he's trying to make us more like him.

[Perry]

Yeah.

[Pastor Chandler]

So we can. The. The one that's in my head right now is when Peter cuts off Malchus's ear. Right. So he's. He's there in the garden. Peter's angsty. He's my kind of guy.

[Perry]

Yeah. And.

[Pastor Chandler]

And he likes conflict. And so ain't nobody arresting his Jesus. He already told Jesus, look, even if all these other guys bow out, I'm here. I'm your guy. And he kind of tries to prove that there early on, cuts off Malchus's ear. And then Jesus, we've already quoted it, gives a put away yours. He lives by the sword, dies by the court. Plus I'm letting them. I could call out, my father gave me 12 legions of angels at just a head nod. We're good here. Yeah, but then Jesus does something that, it's fascinating, like he picks up Malchus's ear and he puts it back on.

[Perry]

Yeah.

[Pastor Chandler]

But here's the mercy in the moment. If you remember Leviticus law, Levitical law. If he doesn't put Malchus's ear back on him, he's no longer with the priests. He can't serve in the temple if he's missing an ear. So this is a guy coming to arrest Jesus. He is like, why does Peter. Why is it that ear that he gets? In my imagination, Malchus grabbed a hold of the Lord, Right. He ain't just some guy standing over here. And Jesus heals this man. Like, who's arresting him. Yeah, that's good because the Levitical law says he's missing that ear. He's out.

[Perry]

Geez.

[Pastor Chandler]

And now who's going to take care of this man? What's his role now? And so that moment, to me, always freaks me out a little bit.

[Perry]

Wow.

[Pastor Chandler]

I don't think I got that in me.

[Jackie]

Yeah, what's crazy? Yeah, what's crazy is. Oh man, that's so good. I mean, because probably, like you said,

[Sponsor Voice 2]

it makes you uncomfortable.

[Jackie]

About five months before I gave my life to the Lord, I wrote about this in my book. My friend got murdered and he died in my mom's arms. My aunt cried out to me and she told me to come live with her because she looked at me, she said, you look dead inside. And so I talked about this how, like, when I first moved into her house, she was a righteous woman. Every morning I would wake up with oil on my head. And I'm like, why oil on my head every morning? And so like, you gotta understand, I didn't grow up in church. And so I didn't have any context for why it's all about people putting oil on heads. And so I'm like, is my head producing natural oil? Just like, sit on my forehead like, what's happening here? And about five o' clock in the morning one day, she was standing over me and she was praying and she was crying over me and she was like, watch, watch, watch over him, Lord. Draw them to yourself. And but one thing she said in the prayer that stuck out to me, I didn't understand it, but it just spoke to me. She said, in your wrath, remember mercy.

[Pastor Chandler]

Oh God.

[Jackie]

And I was like, in your wrath, remember mercy. Like, what does that mean? And I think, you know, as this man started discipling me named Gary, I started to realize I deserved wrath. But God remembered mercy. And I think that's what we have to do as Christians. Like, we have to remember mercy for others. The same mercy that was given to us, we have to remember it to be merciful. Right. And so like I thought that was powerful because man, I didn't know that about the, I knew about the ear. I didn't know that the ear, cutting off the ear, like he, he, he thought about that, man.

[Perry]

But wait, tell me why to be merciful for me will push me into being poor in spirit.

[Pastor Chandler]

See how they start to dance? Yeah. Because it's like they start to dance.

[Perry]

It's like, but I gotta get my lick back.

[Pastor Chandler]

Yes.

[Perry]

You know what I'm saying? And so now. But you're telling me to be merciful. And so now even I, I need you to me more than vengeance can. Like, I, I need you to, to work this out in my soul, you know what I'm saying? So I, I think even to be merciful often takes some level of lament, grief, petition, help to be able to

[Sponsor Voice]

show up like, and to be genuinely merciful.

[Perry]

That's what I mean. Like, to really genuinely be merciful. And he does it. I've seen it.

[Pastor Chandler]

Yeah.

[Perry]

I mean we experienced that in marriage. So.

[Pastor Chandler]

Yeah.

[Jackie]

Yeah.

[Perry]

Okay. I don't want Apostle Chandler here all day. He's let' Blessed are the pure in heart. Now we be like, now God, you know my heart is deceitful.

[Pastor Chandler]

Yeah.

[Perry]

And desperately wicked. I don't, I don't know.

[Pastor Chandler]

Well, if you're praying that, then you're pure heart now, aren't you?

[Perry]

Oh, minister to me.

[Pastor Chandler]

Isn't that right?

[Perry]

Yeah, I hope so.

[Pastor Chandler]

Isn't that right?

[Jackie]

Who says he has no sin? Right?

[Pastor Chandler]

It better be right. And that's the.

[Perry]

Explain that though.

[Pastor Chandler]

Well, I think pure of heart is just being honest about where your heart is. It's not in the bar where the make believe. And again I'm gonna, I rail against it in the books. I rail against it a lot when I'm preaching that kind of spirit. Sprinkle. Blessed. How are you, brother? Praise God, I'm amazing. That only works. Say it again if it's actually true. Right. But to pretend, to pretend that you always get it. You always understand. You're always you know, winning. You're always that. I don't think that's. That's not pure in heart. Like, to be confused is pure in heart. If you're saying to the Lord, and maybe more broadly, I don't understand. Yeah, now you're pure heart and pleases the Lord. And that again, this is another one of those I can get super fired up about because I see so little of purity and heart. I see so much of kind of perfecting the look, perfecting the page, perfecting the channel, perfecting the external. I've got this. I'm killing it. And I just wonder how many people are missing out on the blessing of being pure in heart. I don't understand this. I don't like this.

[Sponsor Voice]

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[Perry]

You know, you might not be, but

[Sponsor Voice 2]

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[Jackie]

It kind of reminds me of the conversation we had on our anniversary because you've been working through a lot of sanctification, studying it or whatever and living it. And living it. But Jackie was just talking about how a couple years ago it was a lot of prosperity gospel, but now it's a lot of self righteousness in our culture and especially a lot of young Christians we see, you know, who are babes in Christ walking around trying to act like they're giants, you know, trying to walk, walk around acting like they all have it all figured out. And I think it's a danger in that.

[Pastor Chandler]

I think God, the Bible warns that there is.

[Jackie]

Yes.

[Pastor Chandler]

Don't let them be a new believer.

[Jackie]

Yeah.

[Pastor Chandler]

For the pride of man.

[Jackie]

Absolutely. And so it's a beauty to say I don't, I don't know what I'm doing. God. I think God finds great delight in it. I think that's what you're saying, man.

[Perry]

It's giving childlike faith.

[Jackie]

Yes.

[Pastor Chandler]

Right.

[Perry]

Yeah. To just kind of be like, hey, man, like I, I'm here, here's. Here's what's in my heart, here's what's in my mind, here's what's in my nature. I know enough about you to know that you can take it. Don't fully trust you. Help me process that. Like, I, I think in the, in recent years I've had to change how I pray in the sense of having a perspective that I'm talking to God as Father and not just Lord, he is Lord, but Father. Helps me to be more honest. Yeah. And be more like less neat, if that makes sense.

[Pastor Chandler]

That's the perfect way to talk about it.

[Perry]

It's just like, yeah, I don't know what to do with this. You know what I'm saying?

[Jackie]

Yeah. But I want to ask you, how does that, how does that look like and play out for you? Because as a leader. Right.

[Pastor Chandler]

Yeah.

[Jackie]

Because I think as a leader, I think people, they don't expect us to be perfect, but they do expect us to know more than them.

[Pastor Chandler]

Sure.

[Jackie]

And to have a sense of awareness that they don't have.

[Pastor Chandler]

Yeah. I think in the most purest hard of ways, most of the time I do know more. Most of the time I am farther along. Most of the time I have endured through something similar and I'll lean into the wisdom of those things. But pure of heart. For me, the wrangle of it, the wrestle with it in particular is maybe when the Lord, not maybe when the Lord starts pressing on things that historically I thought theologically were true. And he's starting to move me. And that feels real scary to me. And then I know I've got. I got a sermon series out there, Lord, that teaches something a little different than that. Then I'm having that conversation with the Lord. And so pure in heart with me. Oftentimes will be that or it will be relationally. Like, I'll have some issues in a relationship, whether good friends or sometimes Lauren and I'll get sideways. She's a little bit behind me on the sanctification thing. Maybe one day. Maybe one day she'll catch up. She's in the room. So I'm just murky. Yeah, she's in here.

[Perry]

Blessed are you.

[Pastor Chandler]

Yeah, blessed is she. Yeah, when you mourn. But I think that's often where pure heart plays out for me is relationally or theologically. If the Lord begins to move me a little bit, that's good. And then all of a sudden, I'm disoriented. So especially like to be maybe more vulnerable. I just had a real powerful encounter with the holy spirit in 2017 that really shook me. I was never a cessationist, always on paper, a continuationist, but on paper. And then man 2017 hit and shook me. And then now I knew I needed to lead different. I needed to operate different. But I built this whole system, this whole place that was used to me operating a different kind of way and just felt blown up in the best way and disoriented.

[Jackie]

You got to tell us, what did that change of you leading different look like? Was it more dependence on the Holy Spirit?

[Pastor Chandler]

More dependence, more empathy on prayer? Like, even now, the village is in the middle of a whole year of 247 prayer. We'll cross across the 5,000th hour while I'm here in Atlanta. So starting in October to this very moment, every hour of every day, 24 7, somebody at the village has been praying for a serious and significant move of God in our day. Wow. And so prayer rooms, a healing service where we could ask the Holy Spirit to heal people and all of some significant pushback early on. Less now. That's good. And so that was a pure and heart moment for me. That was a. I need. I don't know how to do this. I feel like I know more in my head than I've experienced in my life. And I don't know what. I don't know what to do.

[Jackie]

That's good.

[Pastor Chandler]

And that wasn't just with the Lord. It was with a couple trusted people I had access to. I wouldn't have called them friends at the time, friends now, but. And so just reached out and said, hey, man, I just got this going on. I don't know what to do. Don't know even how to navigate it. It feels strange to me. I think it's obviously the Lord for the fruit it's producing, Man, I don't know. I literally don't know what to do. And felt like the Lord tell me, just create space and say, yes, that's good.

[Perry]

What comes to my mind is the patience that that takes and requires. Because I've been thinking through how I think our addiction to productivity is actually influencing the way we understand sanctification.

[Pastor Chandler]

Sure.

[Perry]

Where we kind of want to change overnight. You know what I'm saying? And so, like, even what you're talking about, that was a process. Lord has done work. He's leading you in a certain kind of way. But it still took time to work that out, I guess.

[Sponsor Voice]

How.

[Perry]

Have you even pastored or shepherded people through hard seasons or through difficult marriages or through epiphanies where it's like, yeah, I want you to move here and plant this church. It's like, ah, I don't want to do that. Out of a purity of heart, but still a fear of what that means.

[Pastor Chandler]

Well, I think you've mentioned some of the ways that you do that. One is, I want to be slow, not fast. I want to take time to discern. I want to do what the Bible tells me, which was get some wisdom in here and not just me. And. And then I want us to listen and try to hear from the Lord together and see if what I'm hearing resonates with you or what you're hearing resonates with me. And then let's test it. And then let's go with the great. My favorite prayer, which is, we think this is you. So protect us from foolishness. Cause we really did seek your face. We set aside time, we sought you. So we're trusting. We're heading the way you want us to head.

[Perry]

I'd have prayed that a couple times.

[Jackie]

It's like, I. I think I've been praying that, like, all month, Lord. I don't. I've been telling her. I feel like. I feel like the Lord has been speaking to me about the things like, lord, if this is you, let this happen. It ain't. Yeah, don't let it happen. You know what I mean? I've been doing it all.

[Perry]

It be some laying out the fleece energy. Okay. Blessed. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall Be called sons of God. Is this different than being merciful?

[Pastor Chandler]

Yes, because it's peacemaking. It's not peacekeeping. It's a harder chapter, man. It was probably the hardest one to write.

[Jackie]

What is the difference between keeping peace and making peace?

[Pastor Chandler]

Well, you can keep peace by staying out of it. You can keep peace by never saying what's in your heart. You can keep peace by not telling someone the truth when they're believing a lie. I think peacekeeping. Super easy.

[Perry]

Yeah.

[Pastor Chandler]

Just don't get emotionally invested.

[Perry]

Yeah.

[Pastor Chandler]

Don't care about the person. Don't love truth. Don't fear the enemy.

[Jackie]

Yeah.

[Pastor Chandler]

Peacekeeping.

[Jackie]

Yeah. It's really. It's really avoiding conflict.

[Pastor Chandler]

Yeah. Certainly that's part of it.

[Jackie]

Yes. You know. Yeah. And. But it's not. It won't give you everlasting peace.

[Pastor Chandler]

Yeah. Or work. Both are true.

[Sponsor Voice 2]

Yeah.

[Jackie]

It won't give you everlasting peace. Yeah. That's good.

[Pastor Chandler]

Peacemaking is a love for the person that's willing to risk the relationship for fear of their harm or desire for their good.

[Jackie]

Wow.

[Pastor Chandler]

And so peace making is me asking you to come to dinner with me because I'm concerned at maybe some things I've seen you saying or ways that I've seen you treating Jackie or the kids. And that's a risky conversation. It's a risky conversation. Might create distance between us. And I love you. And I'm only doing it because I love you. And so it's a harder one to do. Very few people disciple you in this. And then you've got people out there that fancy themselves prophets. They just tell the truth. There's no love there. There's pride in their own hearts. But to genuinely care for people is to enter the mess in the hopes that you're bringing order to the chaos or light to the darkness.

[Sponsor Voice 2]

That's good.

[Pastor Chandler]

And there's always risk in it. And I think people listening to us now, many of them will have stories where they did risk it and it went bad, and now they're longing for maybe eventual restoration. And. And then there's probably a ton of people watching this that did that and saved their brother or sister from something horrific.

[Perry]

Yeah.

[Pastor Chandler]

And. But we have to be willing.

[Jackie]

That's good.

[Perry]

For they shall be sons of God. I mean, if we're speaking of Christians, it's like, oh, I thought I already was.

[Pastor Chandler]

Yeah. No, again, now you're talking more. Our experience, our lived experience as sons of God are gonna be felt in a unique way when we enter into that fray.

[Perry]

Interesting.

[Pastor Chandler]

When you're willing to because think of how they're all starting to dance now. Like, even to be willing to do that, there has to be a lowliness in you because you're connected to this person. That's good. You love them. That should be the motive. I mean, anytime you're looking at the Bible, setting up how conflict's done, it's born of love. And so you're low, you're hungering and thirst for righteousness. Right. Relatedness with this person, you're trying to walk in meekness, which is probably the meekness of strength confronting. Right. It's under control. You're not angry or thrashing. You're coming to love. You're stepping into a space that needs order brought to chaos, light brought to darkness. And I think when you're participating in those things, you'll get a sense of the presence of God, your role as a child of God in a more pronounced way. I think when you. I experience this a lot as a leader. When I'm drawn into a mess. I didn't start, I didn't ask for

[Perry]

you peacemaking all the time.

[Pastor Chandler]

But I've got to step into this thing for the good of the body and be strong, but not power up and crush. But to seek understanding, to try to bring clarity, to let the truth of God's word bear its weight. Rightly. Like the book needs to read the situation, not we read the book. Right. It has the authority over this conflict, this situation, this disagreement, and we're going to submit to it, which is if you become a member of our church, like one of the first lines, that the Bible is the final arbiter on all these discussions. Not the way we feel or think.

[Perry]

Yeah. I think it was interesting to me is how the Beatitudes are kind of. I don't know if they're transitioning, but it feels like poor in spirit. Those who mourn meek, hunger and thirst. And now it's becoming kind of relational.

[Pastor Chandler]

Yeah.

[Perry]

You know, like it's working itself out into how we deal with each other.

[Pastor Chandler]

Yeah.

[Perry]

Which is very much Ten Commandments, energy. Blessed are those who are persecuted. I know what this feels like. For righteousness sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Why did Jesus go here?

[Pastor Chandler]

Well, because it was coming for us.

[Sponsor Voice]

That's.

[Pastor Chandler]

That's why. Like he's going to go on to. This is the only one he doubles up on. Yeah, he does, but he changes it. Right. He's talking. There's a sweetness to this kind of back to back beatitude because he changes the emphasis from y' all to you in the second one, man. This is going to be part of it for us. If we. What does Peter say in first? Peter? They just hate us because we won't do the things they do. So they're going to hate us. So persecuted for righteousness sake. So sometimes that's something we say, sometimes that's something we do, sometimes that's something we won't do. And all of that might get you persecution. I don't think in the West. I think we're annoying. Not necessarily persecuted. Right. I think we're just annoying to people who don't love the Lord. Like, if we just get out of the way, they could get to their utopia. Why are we like this? So like, ain't nobody I know getting beat or thrown in prison or, you know, killed for their faith right now. I think some people make arguments. This guy was, or this guy was. But by and large, we're just annoying. But there's an acidity in the air for loving Christ with your whole heart. In the book I write about Andy, who's a good friend of mine at the church, he. And he found himself excluded. He was like, C suite level, big timer in his company. And partners took on a client and tried to hand him this portfolio with multiple porn sites on it. And he was like, won't do it. They're like, no, no. This is like our largest accounts. And he's like, okay, I literally won't do it. They couldn't fire him, so they just iced him out.

[Jackie]

Wow.

[Pastor Chandler]

Right? So he's just not invited to certain meetings. He's not invited to certain trip. He's not. They just iced him out. And he's not going to do it because he's not going to work on. Right. His own story is one. This is public, so I can share it. His own was. He was caught in that stuff and, you know, nearly ruined his marriage. Then the Lord exposed him by the grace of God and healed his marriage. And so now he's not going to go back and give his talents to grow that. So he's like, no, I'm out. And then he's persecuted, not arrested, not beaten, not killed killed, not even fired, but just iced out and then eventually rolled out. And I put several other stories like that in the book. I think this can happen to you as a college kid who takes a stand on sexuality. I think it can happen to you really, wherever. But the key to the passage is persecuted for righteousness sake.

[Perry]

Because you just want to talk crazy.

[Pastor Chandler]

That's right. Not because you're crazy.

[Perry]

Some people want to be persecuted at their attention.

[Pastor Chandler]

Well, some people. All press is good press. You know what I'm saying?

[Perry]

There's a lot of that.

[Pastor Chandler]

Yeah, there is a lot of that. God help us out there.

[Jackie]

Yeah. Cause I tell that that's a different podcast.

[Pastor Chandler]

What we don't release.

[Jackie]

I tell that to evangelists all the time. It's like, no, people didn't reject the truth. They just rejected the way you gave it to them. You know, you gave it to them in a garbage bag and out on a platter. And it's like. And now you want to say you just rejecting the gospel. No, they rejecting you because you're a jerk. You know, and so I think it's a difference.

[Perry]

There is one of the sanctifying agents I think that persecution produces is. I do think it clarifies your mission. Cause I think last year when just a lot was happening, it was like, I started to be like, I don't wanna do this. Like, I don't wanna preach the gospel, I don't wanna do the podcast, I don't wanna write the book. I don't wanna. And the Lord was like, oh, okay, why not? You know, like. So you only wanted to do it when you were affirmed, when you were valued, when you received a certain kind of attention. And I didn't even know so much of myself was in the ministry.

[Pastor Chandler]

Hard to see.

[Perry]

And so it became the yes became a yes because I knew what it cost me. And so I do think persecution has a way of sifting out selfish ambition in a way that I think is necessary if you're called to do gospel ministry.

[Pastor Chandler]

Yeah, listen, I tell those young bucks all the time, I'm like, man, be careful what you're asking for. I don't think, you know, I don't think, you know, like, you name me some let's famous Chris, some blue check person who I know, I'll just give you the suffering behind it, the sorrow behind it. The. Like, the. The Lord will wound a man he's going to use. Profoundly wound a lady, he's going to use prophetically. It's just so. I don't. A lot of people don't even know what they're asking when they're talking about platform.

[Jackie]

Yeah. Because it's a different ball game when you ask to be. When you about to be used. And now you're going into being used and you're counting the cost of it. Okay. It's like when I first started off in doing ministry, I was. I was Excited to, you know, be on this stage. Be on this stage. Just like, how will my marriage be attacked after this?

[Pastor Chandler]

It's coming.

[Perry]

How will my kids? And it develops. It develops your love. Because now I'm deciding to. This podcast is a choice, you know, like, it.

[Jackie]

It's a real choice.

[Perry]

It costs us a lot to help people love God, you know what I'm saying? Like, so it's like, it. It's like, because I love him, I am just compelled to love you in this way. And that's not to say I just show up all the time, like, oh, my God. It'.

[Sponsor Voice]

It's.

[Perry]

It just comes with a lot.

[Jackie]

When Jackie be melancholy in our openings, it'd be real.

[Perry]

Oh, I am fighting for my life. You understand what I'm saying?

[Jackie]

But then towards, like, the middle, towards the end, it's like, oh, there she is.

[Pastor Chandler]

There she is.

[Perry]

The Holy Spirit has to do.

[Jackie]

There's that minister.

[Perry]

He has to do a thing.

[Jackie]

It always happens.

[Perry]

That's among other things. It's loving. Doing ministry with your children. You know what I'm saying? Doing ministry with your spouse, doing ministry with your friends. Like, I think the persecution is good.

[Pastor Chandler]

Yeah.

[Perry]

I genuinely. And I. And I. I know people want to hold back as much persecution in the Christian nation as possible, and I can understand that. I just think on some level, we need it. Yeah, I really do. I don't think we'll have as many podcasts.

[Pastor Chandler]

True. I do think, yeah, there's a reason why I think the church tends to grow really rapidly and really miraculously where persecution's prevalent? And I'm not talking about the kind of persecution. That's just people being annoyed with us.

[Perry]

Yes.

[Pastor Chandler]

I'm talking, like, straight on, like, why is it that the Middle east is exploding right now? Why is it that before that mainland China was exploding? Why is it that in places in Southern Sudan and it's like, where there's legitimate danger, she grows both in numbers, but also, like, in power and the miraculous. And that was the funny thing about, you know, you get overseas, you see some crazy stuff, and then it was like, you had to check those things back in when you came through customs. You're like, you know, the miraculous answers to prayer, that's gotta stay there. It can't come with me. So, yeah, we could use. I think we could use just a little something. A little something.

[Perry]

Well, I feel sanctified a little bit.

[Pastor Chandler]

An hour closer sis. One degree of glory to the next.

[Perry]

Just a little bit. I guess when you think of. Because with our AUDIENCE we have just a lot of different Christians and a lot of different life stages, but we do. We have a lot of people that listen to this podcast that want to know the Lord.

[Pastor Chandler]

Amen.

[Perry]

They want to grow. And I think the difficulty of this era is that podcasts are forming people more often than churches and pastors, and it's hard for. To find a place to go. And so I guess as a pastor, I guess what's a shepherding word you'll give to people that just. Yeah, I want to be like Jesus, too.

[Pastor Chandler]

Yeah. Amen. Here's what I would say. This is the framework I put the Beatitudes in. Deep work over time, in community. It's the only way to be formed. So deep work, what I'm saying is not just that. You know some Bible verses, right? It's not just that. Oh, I know. It's like, how do I understand who God is and understand who I am? That wrangle, like, you know, that's a big one. So deep work is necessary. And then an understanding that this thing is slower than anybody wants it to be. But, you know, Paul calls it one degree of glory to the next. But one degree over the course of a decade, they'll take you farther than you can even imagine. Right. Another thing about over time, I would say, is to just remember, everything's a season, nothing is the end. And so if this is a hard season, okay, but spring's coming. Spring's coming. I don't know when, and I don't know how awesome of a spring it'll be, but it won't always be this. This is not your life. This is a season. So deep work over time. And then, man, we can't be formed without others. So you've got to get into community. I think God's never called you to go to church. He's called you to belong to a group of people. And that's a different kind of connection than going, especially today, where you could go to a church with 5,000 people and never meet anybody. And now you're just. It's like an ecclesiological buffet. You're just getting the music over here and you like the preaching over here, and you're going to go listen to these four podcast preachers after that, and then go listen. And what you're doing in that moment is you've got content, which is, to me, like having wood without fire or a sail without wind. Content doesn't change anybody's life. Content will not transform you without the power of the Spirit. And Then I think the spirit has chosen to use other people to sanctify and to help us. You can't do it on an island.

[Perry]

Yeah.

[Pastor Chandler]

Which is why I think John in first. John is so profoundly beating that drum of loving your brothers and sisters and belonging in a way that you're fully known and then fully loved, but also discipled and coached. That's good. And so that's the framework, I think. Deep work. So don't be satisfied with two inches of water. Plumb the deeps realize. I wish I had better news. I wish I could tell you how to speed it up. There is no spiritual bypass. There is no. You might get a night where you get two clicks, two degrees of glory, but you ain't never getting 10. It'll kill you. Your soul can't handle 10 clicks. But you might get. I believe in deliverance, man. I believe in the fog lifting. I believe in a. A shot of Holy Ghost adrenaline. I just think the way we're transformed slower than that.

[Jackie]

That's good.

[Pastor Chandler]

That might pick. You know, that might give me two degrees of glory. Yeah. But it ain't. I mean, I'm still on the journey.

[Perry]

Yeah.

[Pastor Chandler]

Still on the long journey home.

[Jackie]

That's. That's encouraging.

[Pastor Chandler]

And then lean into one another. Get some real friends. Like d be known. I think that matters. It's good.

[Perry]

Thank you, Mr. Chandler, man.

[Jackie]

It's always an honor to talk to you.

[Pastor Chandler]

Pastor was my son.

[Jackie]

You're wise, wise man. Thank you, man. Get his book Becoming like Jesus. Thank you for everything you've done for the body of Christ, man.

[Pastor Chandler]

I can't believe it.

[Jackie]

Peace.

[Perry]

Bye.

[Sponsor Voice]

With the Perrys is produced by the Perrys with support from Amanda reed and Channing McBride. Video recording and audio production by Matthew

[Perry]

Baxter and Xavier Fairley. Edited by the team at Tread Lively.

[Sponsor Voice]

Artwork by Hop. Thank you for listening.

[Perry]

Now go with the God.