With The Perrys: "Neither Blue Nor Red: Being a Disciple in a Culture War"
Date: September 29, 2025
Guests: Justin Gibney, President of the AND Campaign
Hosts: Preston Perry, Jackie Hill Perry

Episode Overview

This episode of With The Perrys addresses how Christians can faithfully navigate the emotionally charged and polarized environment following the public and shocking murder of Charlie Kirk. The Perrys bring on Justin Gibney (AND Campaign) to discuss Christian responses to violence, the pitfalls of culture war thinking, Christian nationalism, progressive activism, and the challenge of holding to a biblical ethic amidst partisanship. The conversation frequently returns to questions of humility, grace, the need to hear and understand across lines, and the danger of idolizing politics or nation.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Charlie Kirk Tragedy and Culture War Response

• Jackie and Preston reflect on the visceral public reaction to Charlie Kirk’s murder, admitting personal unfamiliarity (at first) with Kirk and the culture war context surrounding him.
• Preston observes a troubling trend where some celebrated Kirk’s death on social media, prompting him to rebuke Christians for losing sight of grace and the value of human life:
  • "It’s kind of hard for me to believe that you understand grace and the weight of your sin if you think another image bearer deserved to die in that way." (Preston, 07:02)
• Justin Gibney emphasizes restraint in public responses, underscoring the irresponsibility of knee-jerk commentary, especially for those with platforms:
  • "Those initial knee jerk reactions are overrated. And you can get yourself in trouble. And actually they're irresponsible when people are following you." (Justin, 04:20)
• Reflection on social media’s numbing effect and how witnessing death virtually distances viewers from the humanity of events.

2. The Demand for Public Statements and Tribalism

• Jackie notes the pressure for Christian leaders to immediately "pick a side" and voice opinions after tragedies, pointing out how social media and tribal cues drive this ("Why haven't you said anything yet?" DMs):
  • "Let me say something so you know which side I'm on... It communicates something to you." (Jackie, 16:08)
• Justin critiques both extremes that arose post-event:
  • On the right: "Almost taking advantage of the moment to score political points... That was problematic."
  • On the left: "He deserved it. I'm glad he's gone." (Justin, 16:30)

3. Dangers of Christian Nationalism and Secular Activism

• Justin details two problematic cultural extremes:
  • Christian nationalism: Ties faith too closely with American identity, refuses to grapple with historical wrongs, and justifies actions of the nation as always righteous.
    • "Their idol can't live in the same location as the truth... That's one of the main problems." (Justin, 23:07)
  • Secular progressive activism: Lacks moral knowledge, places self-perception and feeling above biblical and factual truth, and can become vengeful and hypersensitive.
• Both perspectives, he argues, can disciple Christians away from a biblical ethic—many now demonstrate the talking points and priorities of their secular (not Christian) camps.

4. Empathy, Experience, and the Problem of Dismissiveness

• Preston and Jackie explain why many Black Christians and others might not grieve Kirk’s death in the same way as his supporters, citing his public dismissiveness of issues like Juneteenth or the dignity of Black women.
  • "It was dismissive to my experience… when he died, going to have a different emotional experience. If you never heard anything that he directly said that was offensive to you." (Preston, 26:12)
• Justin: While critique is valid, even public figures should be approached with sensitivity given history, especially regarding Black experiences.

5. The Challenge of Honest, Humble Dialogue

• Both sides must learn to listen—to try and understand the good the other is seeking, and to call out the failings of their own "side."
  • "You can't really have a constructive conversation with somebody if you don't know the good they're trying to get." (Justin, 45:18)
  • "The way I treat you about being right, even if I'm right… if it's prideful, then I'm no longer right. I'm wrong." (Justin, 45:28)
• Boldness is not found in affirming your own camp, but in holding your side accountable and being willing to embrace truth even if it costs tribe approval.

6. Idolatry, Party Loyalty, and Authentic Revival

• The tendency to idolize party, person, or nation is discussed as a core spiritual danger.
  • "You have to love the truth more than you love yourself… more than you love your tribe, more than you love your culture. Right? Because the truth is God." (Justin, 51:10)
• Jackie and Justin challenge the idea that Kirk’s death is a "revival," warning against confusing political fervor with true spiritual renewal.

7. Christian Witness Beyond Party Lines

• Justin insists no party or political movement encapsulates Christian ethics fully:
  • "You cannot be a Christian Democrat faithfully and not call the Democratic Party out on abortion, on the sexualization of children... [and] you can't be a Republican and not call them out on how they treat immigrants, how they treat the poor..." (Justin, 62:31)
• The call is to use parties as tools, not as sources of identity, and to keep Christ—rather than politics—at the center.

8. Handling Accusations of Hypocrisy, Bias, and Inconsistency

• Both the pressure on Black Christians to match their response to Kirk’s death with their response to George Floyd (and vice versa) is addressed:
  • It's not "apples to apples," and personal experience colors reaction to public injustices.
  • "If you have a right to be more vocal about Charlie than George Floyd, why don't I have a right to be more vocal about George Floyd?" (Preston, 66:44)
• Justin urges listeners to check their motives and seek to educate and build up, resisting "gotcha" tactics.

9. Christian Engagement in Civic Life

• Justin’s new book, Don't Let Nobody Turn You Around: How the Black Church’s Public Witness Leads Us Out of the Culture War, is discussed as a blueprint for how the Black Church’s legacy offers a gospel-centered way out of culture war binaries.
• Spiritual disciplines, the fruit of the Spirit, and the example of the Civil Rights movement are lifted up as models for today.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On grace and tragedy:
  • "If we don't mourn that, I don't... I think we're in a really bad place." (Justin, 05:43)
• On the culture war:
  • "We have a very self centered culture... after there's a tragedy, is it necessary to immediately make it about you, your feelings, your narrative and your primary issue?" (Justin, 09:07)
• On engagement across differences:
  • "The day that we think everything's the other side's fault is the day we have no power or agency." (Justin, 51:10)
• On public witness:
  • "How would the civil rights movement and their ethic take on this culture war?... It was a biblical movement... based on the authority of scripture." (Justin, 40:33)
• On the hope for discipleship:
  • "We just got to follow Jesus. I don't know what else to say… I just want us to be disciples and follow him in the way we're supposed to engage." (Jackie, 68:01)
• On moral clarity:
  • "Every Christian should be clear on is Charlie Kirk should not have died in that way, period." (Justin, 69:32)

Timestamps of Important Segments

• [03:33] - Discussing unfamiliarity with Kirk and initial reactions
• [04:20] - Justin on the folly of knee-jerk responses
• [07:02] - Preston rebukes celebratory Christian responses to death
• [09:07] - Gibney on the self-centered culture and responding to tragedy
• [16:08] - Jackie on the performative pressure for public statements
• [18:21] - Justin contrasts Christian nationalism and secular progressivism
• [23:07] - Gibney critiques the historical idolatry in Christian nationalism
• [26:12] - Preston, then Jackie, explain Black Christian responses to Kirk’s death
• [32:22] - Conversation on DEI, framing, and context in Kirk’s comments
• [45:18] - Justin on the role of pride and the pursuit of the good in others’ arguments
• [51:10] - Loving truth above self, tribe, or culture
• [62:31] - Gibney on being a Christian in both the Democratic and Republican parties
• [68:57] - Justin’s discipleship-centered advice for moving forward

Final Takeaways

• The Christian response to tragedy and political polarization must be marked by grace, humility, a refusal to idolize nation or party, and a concern for neighborly love as modeled in scripture and the civil rights movement.
• Christians are urged to resist the pressure to quickly "pick a side" online, to seek understanding across differences, and to speak truth even when it challenges their own group.
• Moral clarity, honest self-examination, and the courage to act and speak as disciples, not as mere members of secular tribes, is the way forward.

Further Resources

• Don't Let Nobody Turn You Around by Justin Gibney
• The AND Campaign (website) – Christian civic engagement framework

For deeper reflection on navigating faith in divided times, listen to the full episode or explore the resources above.