Neither Blue Nor Red: Being a Disciple in a Culture War

Summary

With The Perrys: "Neither Blue Nor Red: Being a Disciple in a Culture War"
Date: September 29, 2025
Guests: Justin Gibney, President of the AND Campaign
Hosts: Preston Perry, Jackie Hill Perry

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Episode Overview

This episode of With The Perrys addresses how Christians can faithfully navigate the emotionally charged and polarized environment following the public and shocking murder of Charlie Kirk. The Perrys bring on Justin Gibney (AND Campaign) to discuss Christian responses to violence, the pitfalls of culture war thinking, Christian nationalism, progressive activism, and the challenge of holding to a biblical ethic amidst partisanship. The conversation frequently returns to questions of humility, grace, the need to hear and understand across lines, and the danger of idolizing politics or nation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Charlie Kirk Tragedy and Culture War Response

• Jackie and Preston reflect on the visceral public reaction to Charlie Kirk’s murder, admitting personal unfamiliarity (at first) with Kirk and the culture war context surrounding him.
• Preston observes a troubling trend where some celebrated Kirk’s death on social media, prompting him to rebuke Christians for losing sight of grace and the value of human life:
  • "It’s kind of hard for me to believe that you understand grace and the weight of your sin if you think another image bearer deserved to die in that way." (Preston, 07:02)
• Justin Gibney emphasizes restraint in public responses, underscoring the irresponsibility of knee-jerk commentary, especially for those with platforms:
  • "Those initial knee jerk reactions are overrated. And you can get yourself in trouble. And actually they're irresponsible when people are following you." (Justin, 04:20)
• Reflection on social media’s numbing effect and how witnessing death virtually distances viewers from the humanity of events.

2. The Demand for Public Statements and Tribalism

• Jackie notes the pressure for Christian leaders to immediately "pick a side" and voice opinions after tragedies, pointing out how social media and tribal cues drive this ("Why haven't you said anything yet?" DMs):
  • "Let me say something so you know which side I'm on... It communicates something to you." (Jackie, 16:08)
• Justin critiques both extremes that arose post-event:
  • On the right: "Almost taking advantage of the moment to score political points... That was problematic."
  • On the left: "He deserved it. I'm glad he's gone." (Justin, 16:30)

3. Dangers of Christian Nationalism and Secular Activism

• Justin details two problematic cultural extremes:
  • Christian nationalism: Ties faith too closely with American identity, refuses to grapple with historical wrongs, and justifies actions of the nation as always righteous.
    • "Their idol can't live in the same location as the truth... That's one of the main problems." (Justin, 23:07)
  • Secular progressive activism: Lacks moral knowledge, places self-perception and feeling above biblical and factual truth, and can become vengeful and hypersensitive.
• Both perspectives, he argues, can disciple Christians away from a biblical ethic—many now demonstrate the talking points and priorities of their secular (not Christian) camps.

4. Empathy, Experience, and the Problem of Dismissiveness

• Preston and Jackie explain why many Black Christians and others might not grieve Kirk’s death in the same way as his supporters, citing his public dismissiveness of issues like Juneteenth or the dignity of Black women.
  • "It was dismissive to my experience… when he died, going to have a different emotional experience. If you never heard anything that he directly said that was offensive to you." (Preston, 26:12)
• Justin: While critique is valid, even public figures should be approached with sensitivity given history, especially regarding Black experiences.

5. The Challenge of Honest, Humble Dialogue

• Both sides must learn to listen—to try and understand the good the other is seeking, and to call out the failings of their own "side."
  • "You can't really have a constructive conversation with somebody if you don't know the good they're trying to get." (Justin, 45:18)
  • "The way I treat you about being right, even if I'm right… if it's prideful, then I'm no longer right. I'm wrong." (Justin, 45:28)
• Boldness is not found in affirming your own camp, but in holding your side accountable and being willing to embrace truth even if it costs tribe approval.

6. Idolatry, Party Loyalty, and Authentic Revival

• The tendency to idolize party, person, or nation is discussed as a core spiritual danger.
  • "You have to love the truth more than you love yourself… more than you love your tribe, more than you love your culture. Right? Because the truth is God." (Justin, 51:10)
• Jackie and Justin challenge the idea that Kirk’s death is a "revival," warning against confusing political fervor with true spiritual renewal.

7. Christian Witness Beyond Party Lines

• Justin insists no party or political movement encapsulates Christian ethics fully:
  • "You cannot be a Christian Democrat faithfully and not call the Democratic Party out on abortion, on the sexualization of children... [and] you can't be a Republican and not call them out on how they treat immigrants, how they treat the poor..." (Justin, 62:31)
• The call is to use parties as tools, not as sources of identity, and to keep Christ—rather than politics—at the center.

8. Handling Accusations of Hypocrisy, Bias, and Inconsistency

• Both the pressure on Black Christians to match their response to Kirk’s death with their response to George Floyd (and vice versa) is addressed:
  • It's not "apples to apples," and personal experience colors reaction to public injustices.
  • "If you have a right to be more vocal about Charlie than George Floyd, why don't I have a right to be more vocal about George Floyd?" (Preston, 66:44)
• Justin urges listeners to check their motives and seek to educate and build up, resisting "gotcha" tactics.

9. Christian Engagement in Civic Life

• Justin’s new book, Don't Let Nobody Turn You Around: How the Black Church’s Public Witness Leads Us Out of the Culture War, is discussed as a blueprint for how the Black Church’s legacy offers a gospel-centered way out of culture war binaries.
• Spiritual disciplines, the fruit of the Spirit, and the example of the Civil Rights movement are lifted up as models for today.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On grace and tragedy:
  • "If we don't mourn that, I don't... I think we're in a really bad place." (Justin, 05:43)
• On the culture war:
  • "We have a very self centered culture... after there's a tragedy, is it necessary to immediately make it about you, your feelings, your narrative and your primary issue?" (Justin, 09:07)
• On engagement across differences:
  • "The day that we think everything's the other side's fault is the day we have no power or agency." (Justin, 51:10)
• On public witness:
  • "How would the civil rights movement and their ethic take on this culture war?... It was a biblical movement... based on the authority of scripture." (Justin, 40:33)
• On the hope for discipleship:
  • "We just got to follow Jesus. I don't know what else to say… I just want us to be disciples and follow him in the way we're supposed to engage." (Jackie, 68:01)
• On moral clarity:
  • "Every Christian should be clear on is Charlie Kirk should not have died in that way, period." (Justin, 69:32)

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• [03:33] - Discussing unfamiliarity with Kirk and initial reactions
• [04:20] - Justin on the folly of knee-jerk responses
• [07:02] - Preston rebukes celebratory Christian responses to death
• [09:07] - Gibney on the self-centered culture and responding to tragedy
• [16:08] - Jackie on the performative pressure for public statements
• [18:21] - Justin contrasts Christian nationalism and secular progressivism
• [23:07] - Gibney critiques the historical idolatry in Christian nationalism
• [26:12] - Preston, then Jackie, explain Black Christian responses to Kirk’s death
• [32:22] - Conversation on DEI, framing, and context in Kirk’s comments
• [45:18] - Justin on the role of pride and the pursuit of the good in others’ arguments
• [51:10] - Loving truth above self, tribe, or culture
• [62:31] - Gibney on being a Christian in both the Democratic and Republican parties
• [68:57] - Justin’s discipleship-centered advice for moving forward

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Final Takeaways

• The Christian response to tragedy and political polarization must be marked by grace, humility, a refusal to idolize nation or party, and a concern for neighborly love as modeled in scripture and the civil rights movement.
• Christians are urged to resist the pressure to quickly "pick a side" online, to seek understanding across differences, and to speak truth even when it challenges their own group.
• Moral clarity, honest self-examination, and the courage to act and speak as disciples, not as mere members of secular tribes, is the way forward.

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Further Resources

• Don't Let Nobody Turn You Around by Justin Gibney
• The AND Campaign (website) – Christian civic engagement framework

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For deeper reflection on navigating faith in divided times, listen to the full episode or explore the resources above.

Transcript

[Host 1]

You want me.

[Host 2]

Okay. Hey.

[Host 3]

Hi, Saint today. Hi, how are you?

[Host 4]

How you doing?

[Host 3]

We actually never planned these intros, and so I don't even know really know what to say other than, you know, I shouldn't use that example, what you was gonna say.

[Host 4]

You're gonna say something crazy.

[Host 2]

I was about to tell the story.

[Host 3]

About that time I was in Chicago and the house I was in got robbed, and I didn't realize it was a robber, but I don't know, it' about bringing up that story with this conversation that feels a smidge inappropriate. So we can use that for another conversation.

[Host 4]

Please have that conversation. That was mean. That. Mean that that story is so. It's.

[Host 3]

I don't wanna. So just listen to next week's conversation and I'll. I'll say that one.

[Host 4]

Okay. No, so. So we have a very special guest, my brother, Justin Gibbety on. Thank you for coming on, bro.

[Justin Gibney]

Always a pleasure.

[Host 4]

So last week I had tweeted because so many people with the Charlie Kirk situation, they were, you know, bickering on. On, you know, Instagram threads, Twitter, all the things. And one of the things I tweeted, I said, justin Gibbety is a. A very good person to follow at this time because a lot of people have questions. And one of the things that we've always recognized from you is you had this beautiful ability to just give objective truth that isn't swayed by bias or just your biased opinion, you know, but it's always biblical and you just kind of navigate this political space well. And a lot of times you don't. You don't see Christians do that. It's always, you know, one side of the extreme. And so we thought in this most sensitive time about Charlie Kirk, you know, the way the climate is to have somebody on like you, a person who believes in the scriptures, but also balance. And so thank you for coming on, bro.

[Justin Gibney]

Thank you. Thanks for the shout out. Thanks for the invitation.

[Host 1]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Host 3]

So many of you know that a couple weeks ago, Charlie Kirk, a young man who is married with two children, an advocate for the Republican Party, who would go to college campuses and basically have conversations with those that disagree with him, was murdered in front of a crowd, I think, in Utah. And we all saw it publicly on our phones. And all the things which I also think is a part of the issue is that we're seeing violence lived out, like on our phones, which is kind of crazy. But it started what feels like a very contentious kind of environment among Christians, among non Christians, on threads on Instagram, on YouTube, on TikTok. And for me personally, when I first heard about it, I had never heard of Charlie Kirk. So I didn't necessarily know even where this would drive the culture. So it was shocking to me, I guess, to see what it did because then I realized, like, oh, he's a very impactful and major figure in a conversation that I actually wasn't privy to.

[Justin Gibney]

Yeah.

[Host 4]

Cause I had text Jackie and people was hitting me up like, why haven't you guys said anything yet? And I told one person on social media. I didn't tell the many. I was like, yeah, you can talk to me. But I know Jackie don't know who this person is at all.

[Host 3]

No, I didn't.

[Host 4]

You know, this is kind of like some of the stuff that I listened to. But I know she didn't know who Charlie was, but.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

So I guess my question for you is one, were you familiar with Charlie Kirk?

[Host 3]

Two, were you anticipating where this would go because of any familiarity you might have had with his stances?

[Justin Gibney]

So, yeah, I was. I had followed Charlie for a while. And really just because as somebody who's in the political space, it's kind of my job, right, as the president of the and campaign to know who's saying what. Whether I agree with you or not. I need to know what thought leaders are saying to kind of understand where things are going. And so I was actually on a plane coming back to Atlanta when I saw it. And first I see, you know, he got shot. You know, somebody was shooting at him. Then he got shot. And then I actually saw what happened.

[Host 1]

Wow.

[Justin Gibney]

And I figured things would. Would blow up that moment I kind of knew and even me. So I think what you guys did was wise. It's overrated. Those initial knee jerk reactions are overrated. And you can get yourself in trouble. And actually they're irresponsible when people are following you.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

Um, I myself didn't even say anything until the next day. Like later the next day. I didn't automatically, other than, you know, God bless his family or something like that. Yeah, I think it's overrated to have something to say when you don't have no facts. You don't have nothing to go.

[Host 4]

So. So I did say something the very next day. What I did was I did an IG live, but I just didn't put it on my main page once the live was over, you know, saying. So I had like, like 1500 people in the live. And I was like, if y', all, whoever see it, see it yeah. Or whatever. But, you know, my ig. My ig live wasn't necessarily motivated on what happened, but what I saw, how I saw some people respond to the death.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 4]

Which was celebration, which was like, this should have happened. Which hurt me as a Christian and as a fellow image bearer, just a human. To see so many people initially, you know, having so many TikTok videos of this should have happened. And so when you saw that, if you saw that, what was your response to that and how. Because for me, I just kind of felt led to just slightly kind of rebuke Christians. What is your. What was your response to?

[Justin Gibney]

I had a very similar response because I didn't want to see this culture war response. That's really what that was. It was a very tribal culture war response. We got somebody on the other side. I didn't like him. He needs to die. That's not a Christian response, whether I agree with him or not. And as I said, I've said before, the tweet, the last tweet I sent with him as part of the subject was saying something about what I thought was a racist comment. But at the same time, when somebody gets killed in that way for giving their opinion, whether it's a good opinion or bad opinion, they have a right to do that for their life to be taken. If we don't mourn that, I don't. You know, I think we're in a really bad place.

[Host 4]

Let me just say this real quick, and then I'll pass it to you, bae, what I thought about the reason why I made that IG live about people kind of saying they don't really care. He got what he was coming to. He's put hate out there. So hate went back to him. One the reason why I had a problem with it because I think fundamentally, it's kind of hard for me to believe that you understand grace and the weight of your sin if you think another image bear deserved to die in that way. Right. But also, too, I think social media kind of has numbed us.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 4]

In such a way.

[Host 1]

Right.

[Host 4]

Because, you know, the first thing I thought about was how in sixth grade, I saw my neighbor shoot his wife and then kill himself. And what's crazy is me and my mama, we hated them. Like, we did not. Like, you know, they were a drug family in our community and they were Hispanic, you know, drug family. And they moved to the community and they had caused my mama a lot of grief. But I just remember that situation and how my mama responded seeing it. That because she saw the way they died. She immediately was filled with grief. She was immediately filled with panic. Because no matter how much you disagree with someone, something in her conscience says human beings are not supposed to die that way. But I think what social media has done, I think it's disconnected our humanity in such a way because we're seeing a bullet go through somebody neck on a screen. We, we were confident to tweet, he deserved it.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 4]

But I bet you if you were standing five feet away, you will be. You know what I'm saying? It would be more of a reality. And so I think for me, I just wanted to remind Christians how much social media has affected the way we are human.

[Justin Gibney]

Yeah.

[Host 4]

And then if you're a Christian, that's just a whole nother ball game. You don't understand grace and sin.

[Justin Gibney]

And those are general comments. I think that's good for a leader to say, hey, let's remember, I'm not weighing in on exactly who he was or this or that.

[Host 1]

Yes.

[Justin Gibney]

But we gotta be Christian. Let me remind you about some general principles. So I think you're right about the social media aspect of it. Here's the other part that, here's something else that's part of it though. We have a very self centered culture. And like me, how does this affect me? Right. And so the question I would ask a lot of Christians, because I think that's what went into it. People who reacted negatively or said crazy stuff because they didn't like him. I get that. And there may be time for that conversation right after a tragedy. The question I have for people is after there's a tragedy, is it necessary to immediately make it about you, your feelings, your narrative and your primary issue?

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 4]

That's good.

[Justin Gibney]

Is that grace?

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

Right. Because people are saying, well, I didn't like him. He said this about race. Okay, cool. Is this particular moment in the midst of the tragedy about you?

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

And how you feel about it? I'm not saying that can never be expressed.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

But what's the main lesson that we need to get out of this? It wasn't how you felt at the moment. You know what I'm saying? It wasn't how you, if you liked him or not. It's that this was an image bearer whose life was taken for expressing his opinion.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 4]

And not only that, like, do you need to even speak at all at that time? Right. Because what if me and my mama would have went in that yard when the forensic people got there, the police got there, the families in the yard crying and we went in the yard and started expressing how we didn't like your mom and your dad, who's dead right here. I know that might sound extreme, but in a lot of ways that's exactly what a lot of people did. And I don't think that you properly thought about everybody that was affected by his death. When you get. And I think so. I just don't want people to allow social media to get them in trouble with the Lord. Because. Because only what we say and how we say it, but when we say it also can be loveless.

[Host 2]

I think when you have children, or even if you don't have kids, sometimes you just want to wake up and you don't feel like cracking two eggs and opening up the the cabinet and getting out the skillet and putting bacon and sausage on it and then, you know, putting toast in the oven and taking that out and putting butter and jelly on it. Sometimes you don't feel like doing that.

[Host 4]

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[Host 2]

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[Host 4]

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[Host 2]

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[Host 4]

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[Host 2]

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[Justin Gibney]

And here's what other else doesn't justify it, because what other people will say, well, where they're. They're doing this and they're doing that. Therefore, I had to. What your opposition is doing should not be the basis of how you react to something that doesn't dictate your behavior and your character. And this was a character moment. And a lot of us revealed to ourselves and others what our Christian character was or what level of maturity we were at. I don't care what the other side, if they're doing this or that. How are you, as a Christian supposed to respond to somebody dying in this way? I want to have the other conversations because I got a lot of things I could say in disagreement. Was that the moment for me to insert how I felt and what I wanted to get out at that moment?

[Host 4]

That's good.

[Justin Gibney]

You know, at that time.

[Host 1]

That's good.

[Host 2]

I think to your point, I think.

[Host 3]

A lot of what people, some people were feeling, particularly people within marginalized communities, is. It felt like just in a sense where it's. And I'm just painting the picture. Cause hear what we're actually saying and not what you think we're saying. I think for them, it's theirs to this person who spews views that make life as a marginalized person more difficult. And therefore it feels just that he was taken because of what he represents. And so I think when they see Christians or pastors or whoever mourn him or grieve him, it can feel like. But they don't do that for us, right? So whether it's George Floyd or Sandra Bland or Philando Castell, whoever, like, they don't mourn when someone is killed unjustly. And so there it feels like, why are we always being called to be the bigger person? And I think that's some of the dynamic that is at place. And I think in those moments, it's like, that's when you. I'mma spiritualize it because it is spiritual. That's when you take that sense of injustice to the Lord, you get what I'm saying and say, okay, how does the Sermon of the Mount help me work through these difficult feelings? Let me call a friend and work through these difficult feelings. Like, I. If I feel angry, if I feel mad, if I lack empathy, then that is something I need to deal with. And so I'm not invalidating the anger, I'm not invalidating the feeling behind the stuff. But I am saying, I think as believers standing before God, we have to work through that stuff, because that will show itself up in other relationships, not just with what happened to Charlie Kirk.

[Host 1]

Yeah, sure.

[Justin Gibney]

No, absolutely. I mean, and I'm not even saying that I don't agree with that sentiment. Like, I didn't feel that way in some. I'm not saying I didn't feel that way to some extent, but there's some things we just need to leave in the chat group.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

That don't need to be made for sure. There's a place I was having conversations. There's a place to say, man, let's. Let's. As we piece all this together, what information do you have, this person saying this? I don't need to always bring all of that out into the public and just spew it.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

And I think that's where a lot of people went wrong. The sentiment may have some validity to it.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

What should be my witness if I say anything as a Christian based on what just happened? What's the question we have to ask?

[Host 3]

I kind of. I said this on Instagram. I kind of think on one end we're not concerned with witness, but on the other end, I think the witness we give. I said, I think a lot of people are either responding or are telling bullying people into response because it feels like tribal cues. It feels like, let me say something so you know which side I'm on. People are the amount of DMs and comments I got. Why haven't you. And I would note that. Cause, you know, on DMs, you could see if somebody has said something. It's people that have never said anything to me ever who are saying, why haven't you said anything about Charli? And I was like, I kind of think y' all want me to say something because you want me to. It communicates something to you. It communicates.

[Host 2]

Huh?

[Host 3]

Is she trustworthy? Did she vote right? Is she? Duh. Is she? And I'm like, I don't want to give into pandering, nor do I want to give into people pleasing. And so I guess what would you say to even that dynamic of people? I don't even know what question to ask. Just say something about what I just said.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 3]

Because that's crazy to me.

[Justin Gibney]

So I would say, number one, feel free to take your time. So we just talked about that. Feel free to take your time, collect your thoughts, because whatever you say can and will be used against you. Right. We all know that. And then you really do have to step back, because I feel like that. I feel like the two prominent responses to this were very broken, which was the complete lionization. Automatically look at the left. This is, see, look, this is who the left is. They want to do this to all of us. Right. Almost taking advantage of the moment to score political points. And you saw that on the right. That was, that was problematic. And some people were responding to that. But respond to the tragedy, not how other people are acting. Fools. Right. The other side was this, hey, he deserved it. I'm glad he's gone. Half the people didn't really even know him. Right. So we're super emotional about somebody who most of us didn't even know who he was. He was big, but within a certain group of people, certain demographic of young, you know, college age people. Others knew him a little bit, but that's who he was really popular with. So he wasn't targeting you probably didn't. A lot of people didn't even know him.

[Host 1]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host 4]

Speak to, speak to those two extremes because I've often heard you and a lot of these stuff I've, I've heard you, I don't know if you coined, I've heard you say it on your, on your platform. This two extremes of secular activism and Christian. What's the term that you used?

[Justin Gibney]

So I mean, you have progressive activists and you have devoted conservatives. That comes from a certain survey that was done a few years ago about who are the two major groups that run the public square.

[Host 1]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host 4]

So talk about the two extremes and how both extremes can be problematic and how we as Christians should respond when we see the extremes on social media.

[Justin Gibney]

Yeah. So applied to this particular subject, I think you have what amounts to Christian nationalism on one side, right, Christian nationalism, saying, hey, the left is completely evil. Didn't we tell you they were completely evil? Look at what they did. Come to us, don't agree with anything they say. You know what I'm saying? Don't believe anything they say or whatever. That's the more conservative. Tying Christianity to ideological conservatism in a way that I think very much lacks compassion, which is the problem that a lot of people had with, with Charlie Kirk in the first place. Right. The compassion towards marginalized groups and things of that nature. So you have the Christian nationalists, then you have the other side that's really, really run by kind of like your secular activist, your secular academic. Right. This is the more progressive side of the conversation, which, and we'll get to the book, but which I talk about lacking one lacks compassion, the other one lacks moral knowledge. Like the left has Trouble accepting the facts of life, right? If you look at some of the positions they take, if they don't, if reality don't match what they believe, we gotta throw reality out. If truth in the Bible don't match what they believe, we gotta throw that truth out. Cause what we feel and how I see myself, my self perception rules over all of that. My expression rules over all of that. So those are the two sides. And the sad thing about the response from a lot of Christians is, is you see them using the talking points of one of those two sides, you see them responding in that way. So a lot of our peers, I'm looking like, man, you not discipled by the civil rights generation and what they spoke into our lives through their struggle. You're being discipled by the secular progressivism, right? And this secular activist ethic is vengeful, it's idolatrous when it comes to identity. It's hypersensitive, it's quick to take offense. So you almost are looking to be offended. And one of the things that does, it hurts you when it comes to resilience. Like we're resilient people. Every time somebody says, I listen to a lot of Charlie Kirk stuff, every time he says something I didn't like, I didn't fall apart because either I knew it wasn't true, I'm like, I want to disprove it, right?

[Host 4]

That's the frustrating thing for me, Justin. And I want you to kind of explain this because I think from a Christian stand point of view, right? You know, I think a lot of Christians can understand why some Christians have a problem with some of the liberal, liberal point of views of how they try to, you know, affirm same sex marriages or, you know, we believe that life starts at conception, so we fight for the life of the unborn and all of those things. But at the same time they might not have a ability to understand why Christian nationalism is also problematic in some ways they might, you know, and then they might have this sensation to think that Christian like, like, like a nationalism and Christianity can be synonymous. And so talk about some of the pitfalls and some of the blind spots that we might not understand that we might not see in Christian nationalism that's hidden in the church. And why some people, you know, might not celebrate or mourn Charlie's death in the same way that you have, because you notice some things that they might not know.

[Host 2]

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[Justin Gibney]

So one of the biggest problems, and this is going back to my critique of the right. One of the biggest problems with Christian nationalism is it binds Christianity with America as if they're hand in hand. So one thing that does historically is now, if America is really God's promised land, which is almost, you know, the interpretation that you get, then I can't really accept the negative things that America has done. So these are the people that will not accept negative stuff about American history. Objective facts. They'll get mad at objective facts about slavery, you know, Jim Crow and all that, because they can't. Their idol can't live in the same location as the truth. Wow. The light. And their idol can't live. So they have to throw out. If you wonder why somebody don't like to talk about history, just denies it, because their idol can't live there. Wow. So. So that's right. That's one of the main. The main problems with it is it makes that connection. And then once you make this God's country, also, when we go to war, we're in the right. So you can justify anything America does because we have that connection. And, you know, he brought us here, and now we're just doing kind of his work. Well, we can see how that gets us into trouble. I mean, not even Israel. Everything they did was right in the Bible. Everything they did. God's. Oh, this is perfect. You're right. No, this is not how it works. So you get this Christianity that really is. Is ideological nationalism, using Christian symbols and all that. And I think that's clearly problematic. Then the people that you've hurt over that history, you almost have to dismiss them.

[Host 4]

Wow.

[Justin Gibney]

Because otherwise, you gotta admit again that you did something very wrong. And so you might get a small apology, but it's always, let's move on.

[Host 1]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

We can't sit in this. Cause. Because that would compromise our narrative.

[Host 1]

Yeah, yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

Right.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 4]

I think if I'm just all. I know I've been talking a lot, but I think if I'm being all the way honest, you know, I didn't celebrate Charlie's death. I was sad because I think every human being should have been sad to see somebody die that way. But one of the things that grieved me was seeing so many believers who appreciated Charlie not be. Not being able to understand why we might not be as impacted over his death in the same way that you are.

[Host 2]

Can I re.

[Host 3]

I don't want to reword your language, but I also want to add to your language mid speech.

[Justin Gibney]

Okay.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 4]

Help me. Be my helper.

[Host 3]

No. To say not only grieving in a way that's distinct, but also grieving or they misunderstand. Why don't you think he's a martyr? And it's like. Because I heard what he said. And so it's not that I don't appreciate his stances on. On abortion, on sexuality, on marriage, but it's also. I hear other things alongside that that don't give. Martyr.

[Host 1]

Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

[Host 4]

Thank you for. Thank you for claring. Because that's. You actually said it way better than I wanted to say. Because I don't want people to hear me saying that. You know, I feel like he deserved it. I wasn't sad or. I don't even want people to hear me saying, like, you know, I don't think that he was a brother because it's not my place to put him in heaven or hell. Right. I. I don't think that he denied who Christ was. I think that he said so many different, like, so many good things. You know, whether that was about same sex marriage, whether that was abortion, whether that's you know, the deity of Christ and the triune God of scripture. He said so many fundamental Christian, Christian things that I align with. But what I want people to understand is, like, I think sometimes Christian nationalism, not sometimes, most of the times, is so dangerous because it doesn't give people the opportunity, the ability to actually understand what we go through as black people or what we have been through. Like, I'll give you an example when Charli. I remember watching the conversation when Charlie made the comment about, it's Juneteenth today, right? And. But Juneteenth is not a real holiday, so I'm going to work, right? That might be very, very small to you, but for me, I grew up with a grandmother who I've seen Poppy cry seven to eight times about how she hated the fact that Father came back from this country and still didn't have the right to vote. And so when I celebrate Juneteenth, not me saying I hate the 4th of July, it's not even me saying that I hate my country, but it's me recognizing that my grandfather has a different history than your grandfather might have. Right? And so I think sometimes when I hear him say that, it was dismissive to my experience. It was dismissive to my family's experience. And so when he died, going to have a different emotional experience. If you never heard anything that he directly said that was offensive to you. And so I think sometimes we just don't understand that. And I think sometimes what Christian nationalism does, it says, because we love America so much, we love the Fourth of July. And so we. We hate anything that looks different or looks like it's competing with our day. But it's like, no. If fourth of July, why was given to us for us to remember the past. That's the reason why it was literally given it to us. If my grandfather has a different past, for you to dismiss how I experience my grandfather, it's hurtful. And so it's not even about hating him or not thinking that he's a Christian. It's saying, no, maybe Christian nationalism kind of entwined with his theology in such a way that gave him an inability to see all people the way God probably intended inside. That's what I wanted people to understand.

[Justin Gibney]

You hit on a good part that I had a huge problem with, which was that in many cases, as I watched Charlie Kirk, he was. He was overly provocative, and he was intentionally insensitive to marginalized people. He played about stuff. And we know, I mean, y' all are in this game to be provocative is if he wasn't provocative, nobody would probably ever know him. Right.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

They don't justify it. But especially when you're doing it about these particular subjects, you're playing about stuff that you shouldn't be playing about that you shouldn't be trying to be provocative on. Let's just say black women. So when you name. He named three black women, Michelle Obama, our justice, you know, Supreme Court justice as well, and say, oh, they're just DEI hires. They don't deserve. They don't really have the brain processing power. The brain processing power to be here. A mature Christian, I think, should. Even if you have an issue with DEI and you think there are some excesses there which we can have that conversation, you approach it differently when you understand the historical context of a people who throughout their history here have been demeaned and told that they were lesser. And in many instances, sometimes coming out, the church told genetically by, you know, by birth, you are inferior intellectually. If you truly understand that history, it doesn't mean that you can't critique. Nobody's above or below a critique, especially public figures.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

But you do it a different way. And when you don't do it a different way, when you are completely insensitive to that history or ignorant to it, people are gonna draw conclusions. That keeps them from reacting the way that the people that like you react. And here's the thing that folks don't realize. We hear what we wanna hear.

[Host 1]

Yep.

[Justin Gibney]

So when somebody's talking about something and they're hitting on my narrative and I wanna hear it, I just hear what you talking. Like, I love what you're talking about.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

I might even hear something else you said. I'm not paying attention to that. That's not my issue. You telling me what I wanna hear.

[Host 3]

I literally thought that last week when I was just listening to and. And I was like, I think most people. Because I was also seeing a lot of Christians say, he was so bold, he was so courageous, he was so this. And sure. But I also felt like maybe y' all don't hear how I hear. Right. And so you. You heard dei. I heard they're taking white male slots. Right. But because DEI is your. It's a thing that you are troubled by and cool. It's like. But I'm hearing the whole thing. And so I think. I guess I would appreciate the conversation more if we were listening to all of it. And people will argue, well, context one. I think there are some things that, like, I think there are some things I say that It's a problem if I always have to say, you need context for that. Right. Because that means I might be using sentences that are actually, when they're stripped away, just completely unhelpful. And so I think it still frames women and framed like, it's just. It's the framing that feels like.

[Host 1]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host 3]

Just.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 4]

And just. And just.

[Host 3]

It troubled me.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

And to say it's insensitive is really being kind. Right. I'm being very.

[Host 3]

I'm being careful even now.

[Justin Gibney]

And that's what. Me too.

[Host 4]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cause I think the framing, what you said, but also, you know, and I know this is a sense of the topic. So I want to continue. We prayed about this, we talked about this, you know, know, for. For a long time. I just want to continue to say this is not an indictment, like God is the final judge. But I'm just saying that I think that we will not learn from one another until we do the brave thing of stepping out of our social bubbles and actually learning from each other's experiences and how we hear. Like, we really. Because what I just brought up about my grandfather, I'm literally just celebrating the way his particular struggle was when he fought in the war but came back to a country that considered him less human. And so it doesn't mean I hate America. And so if you're disconnected from that experience because you're not black, you heard Charlie's words, Christian words without offense. Because the offense is actually.

[Host 3]

Well, you heard the non Christian stuff without offense.

[Host 4]

You heard the non Christian stuff. Yes. You heard the. You're able to hear all of the Christian stuff that he do say, but you're able to hear, because you're hearing him without a defense, you're not able to see that maybe he's saying things that a lot of black Christians is being rubbed wrong. And so I think we gotta learn from each other's experience if we're really gonna be the body of Christ.

[Justin Gibney]

Yeah. And I think that's a lesson for everybody too. Right. I tend to think that other people's bad decisions and sins are more relatable and understandable than we would like to believe.

[Host 1]

Yeah, for sure.

[Justin Gibney]

Right. So I can say, man, I just don't know how they do that. But if I look at my life, how could they ever just look past that? Well, we hear. We take out of what somebody's saying what we want to hear. So same for us, when we hear a pastor who's talking about race and we re. Share him, but it's the same pastor who, every day he goes up to the pulpit, throws the scripture in the trash. But when he says something about race, I'm not as worried about what he did with the scripture the week before. I'm worried that this serves my narrative and I'm here with him. There's something for all of us to learn in that. How we can dismiss or rationalize. I don't know that that's any better. Supporting somebody who's unbiblical. Is that better than. You see what I'm saying? And I'm not trying to. I'm just saying we can all learn from what we dismiss and rationalize.

[Host 4]

Yeah, that's good.

[Host 3]

And people will hate this comparison. But I think it's apartment Which I think it's similar to how black people in particular, we can watch Spike Lee's Malcolm X and find some appreciation.

[Justin Gibney]

That's good.

[Host 3]

Right? We can engage with Farrakhan and find some. Like, what he said right there was true. The problem becomes when we are. We're able to listen and affirm and also not critique. And so I think we have to be able to do both and say, no, that was. I think that was true. But that was crazy. That denied Christ, that denied love of neighbor. Like, we have to be honest about the whole person. But I can understand because in the black community, it's like, yeah, Malcolm that man. But it's like Malcolm was saying some crazy stuff. You know what I'm saying? Chickens coming home to roost and all the things. So I think that's giving me some empathy.

[Host 4]

But that's good, though, because then you. So a couple of years ago, you. You made a tweet.

[Host 3]

I was trying to not bring that.

[Host 4]

Up, but yeah, but no, no, what.

[Host 3]

If they gonna be like, that's why.

[Host 4]

She don't like, no, but what I'm. What I want to say is you brought. Because. Because you're able to hear. Hear Malcolm say things that's true about the country that they live in, but theologically, he's off. Right. And so you don't agree with this theology. Right. Cause you come from a Christian worldview. But when you said that, when you tweeted the thing, people were offended because he said things that a lot of people were offended by. And so what you did was you apologize. And so I think that's the point that I want to pull out. Because you were a black person, you've heard Malcolm X say things. It's like, man, like, this country is problematic in this way. Like healthy critiques. Of the country that you. Doesn't mean you hate America, but you did consider. And so I think the same thing can be said about people who celebrate Charlie. It's like, are you considering. Even though he says a lot of true things. Charlie said a lot of true things. I love actually, when he talked about, you know, marriage. Marriage.

[Host 3]

A sacred, holy.

[Host 4]

A sacred, holy abortion. And so it was a lot of things.

[Justin Gibney]

Hookup culture. I mean, he has hookup culture campuses.

[Host 4]

Yes. And. And I. I do think that he was bold in a lot of ways of. Of talking about only fans, how it's demonic. I mean, he went out, he went after a lot of powerful organizations that had a. That. That. That had made a lot of money for a lot of people and said, this is evil. This is. This is not moral. And so I appreciated from that. But at the same time, you got to understand that he did say things that directly impacted the black community in ways that was hurtful.

[Justin Gibney]

Exactly. And so my point is this. You guys hit on really well. My point is this. That should give us the fact that we can do that on other issues. Should give us a little humility. Yes. But it should also tell some of the white evangelicals who are celebrating this and going all in, make sure you're not rationalizing and defending something just because he said what you wanted him to say on something else.

[Host 1]

Oof.

[Justin Gibney]

That's facts, and that's a lot of what's happening right now.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

And we know that once somebody passes away, we tend to make them. You know what I mean? We tend to raise the status up a little bit.

[Host 4]

Personally, I know what it feels like to just get hit with a wave of depression, to be okay one day and then wake up the next day and feel like it's a dark cloud over your head. You can't do nothing about it. You call out to the Lord and you feel like he doesn't hear you. And so that's the reason why I'm really excited about this new book by my sister, Blair.

[Host 2]

The enemy is right there, using these feelings to draw us further away from God. But we all know, I hope, that the truth is, God is with us. All we have to do is trust him and lean into him. That's why we want to tell you guys about a new book called Made to Tremble by author, spoken word artist and our friend, Blair Lynn. She opens up about her own journey, battling panic attacks, crippling anxiety and fear. But what makes all of it powerful is how transparent and authentic she is about her own structure, struggle, A lot of times she knew that she should cast her fear and anxiety, that she shouldn't have intrusive thoughts about God, as we all know that wrestle with our humanity and Christianity. But instead she tried to lean on her own self, as we often do. And we know how well that goes. It just doesn't work. What she went through was in fact intense. But she could not get past it or through it without God. She had to go through it with him. And so the stories that Blair tells us and Made to Tremble are relatable even if you're not somebody who dealt with anxiety or deals with anxiety anxiety. We have all been somewhere like that, struggling to simply lean into the Lord. Made to Tremble isn't about being fake. Made to Tremble is not about trying to like fix stuff quickly. It's not about putting a band aid on what's hurting. It's about honesty. It's about hope and it's learning how to actually experience God's peace when everything is chaotic. So you can check it out the [e-mail] that is madetotremble.com.

[Justin Gibney]

If we move out of this culture war left versus right, there's a conversation that could be had, that could be constructive. That's kind of what I'm trying to get to. I don't need to in your morning. I don't need to correct and police everything you're saying. I might have to roll my eyes or whatever, but we could actually have a conversation about this if we bring some humility and center Christ in the conversation.

[Host 4]

What is that conversation?

[Justin Gibney]

It could be had. One, it can be had.

[Host 3]

You have a book called don't let nobody turn you around coming out and the subtitle is how the black church is witness leads us out of the culture war.

[Host 2]

How does the thesis of your book.

[Host 3]

Apply to this circumstance?

[Justin Gibney]

Basically, my book looks at the culture war that's this left versus right dynamic where they're just fighting for control of America's values. Right. Which the black people have never really been in the middle of that. It's always been like a white conservative and progressive war. We're thrown into it. We're not principals. And my book basically says, okay, let's step back. How would the civil rights movement and their ethnic take on this culture war? Cause the culture war wasn't going on in the same instant back then as it is now. They were focused on justice. But if you look at closely at the Civil rights movement, it was a based on the authority of scripture. It was a biblical movement. Most of the people out there believed they were out there because they believed what the Bible said. So how would they step back and address this differently than your everyday conservative or your everyday progressive? And so the book answers that question.

[Host 1]

Question.

[Justin Gibney]

It looks at how would I treat my neighbor? Do I see my neighbor as pure evil? Or do I say there's some redemption there because this person's made in the image of God? How do I tenaciously push back against their injustice while at the same time not losing perspective that they're human beings and I actually want to win a brother?

[Host 1]

That's good.

[Justin Gibney]

That's what the civil rights movement was about. And I critique how even within the church, many of us, I think, have lost the. We lost the plot of that civil rights idea. We've lost the moral of that story as we enter into these different spaces, because, as I said, I think we've been discipled by secular activism. And so I just look deeply into how the church historically, because it's also. It's not just saying the black church is perfect. It's a critique of today's black church, too, as well as white evangelicals, secular activists, and all that, based on the ethic that they live by through very tough times.

[Host 1]

That's good. That's good. You got a question?

[Host 4]

So one of the things that I wanted to say was I do think that we have to fight one. I repeat that to fight to understand each other's side. But a couple of weeks ago, I was in New York, and one of my mentors was with me, me. And we just kind of have two opposing views when it comes to this political stuff. I mean, Jackie will tell you. I mean, like, you know, he's helped me with marriage tremendously. I mean, I think he's gifted in that.

[Host 1]

In that.

[Host 4]

In that area of just equipping, you know, young men to be married. But when it comes to just political stuff, I mean, he's more on, like, we. We both have conservative values. He. We just. We just, you know, and so we ended up going to dinner that night, and he. He offended me. He offended me greatly. Like. And we got it to this heated conversation while we eating our rib eyes, and we was just going at it, and I got so irritated and so emotional, and I came back home, and the Lord wanted me to fast about a couple of things, about, you know, my home, my leadership, all the things. And while I was fasting the second day, I felt like the Lord said, okay, yeah, I'm showing you a lot. Yada, yada, Yada. But I want you to apologize to my mentor, one of my mentors. And I'm like, what? He was completely in the wrong. And I felt like the Lord was like, no, like, you guys talk to one another, but y' all didn't hear one another. Yeah, y' all didn't hear one another because it was so clouded with the fence. It was just so clouded with the fence. Y' all didn't really hear one another. And so I came to him the next day, and I just humbled myself, and I said, said one, I want to just apologize, you know, for the way I spoke to you. I tried to sound like I was just, you know, being rooted in logic and reasoning and all of the things, but it was. It was really motivated by offense. And the Lord convicted me because he showed me I had no right to talk to you. One as a brother, but also as a man who God put in my life to just pour into me a lot of great things, and he was able to apologize to me, and we were able to hear one another in our second conversation was just so helpful. It was so beneficial. We actually heard each other's perspective. He's actually repented for a lot of the viewpoints that he brought. That was insensitive. I was able to yada, yada, yada. And so from your. Your point of view, like, what does that look like for us to do not just as a local community, but as a global church? Like, how. How can we hear one? Because I. I just don't think that we hear one another. And I think a lot of times we don't care. To a lot of people out there, that's not their goal to hear. It's their goal to just be tribal, to just be in their community, be in their bubbles, to be celebrated amongst their camps. But for the people who really want to understand the other side, how can we do that? And what does that practically look like that's good.

[Justin Gibney]

I think it's one realizing that what's keeping us apart in many instances is pride. Even if I'm right, it's so simple. Even if I'm right.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

The way I treat you about being right, even if I'm right, even if somebody's right about everything they said about Charlie Kirk, how I address it, if it's prideful, then I'm no longer right. I'm wrong. And I'm keeping a conversation, a real conversation from happening. So one of the things that I try to do in conversations, even with people I disagree with, is you can't really have a constructive conversation with somebody if you don't know the good they're trying to get. Even if you disagree with somebody, most people aren't just purely motivated by malice. There's some good that they see. And until I can articulate the good that they see, I can't really understand where they're coming from. So in that conversation, I want to be able to say, oh, the good you're trying to get at is a sort of moral order that puts aside all these other, you know, I want to be able to articulate that so I can actually say I understand where you're coming from. Too often. Often, because in the culture war, you see your enemy as purely evil, which is the response that you're getting on both sides. This purely evil, you don't have nothing to contribute. It's like the people that say, if you get my issue wrong, you don't have anything you could ever teach me. So if you're pro choice and I'm pro life, I don't need to listen to nothing you gotta say. If you get racism wrong, if you have a racial hang up I don't like, there's nothing you could ever teach me. That's a lie.

[Host 1]

Yeah, yeah, right.

[Justin Gibney]

That's pride. That's a lie that keeps us from having a conversation. Now, that person needs to be corrected. You don't need to gloss over that. But that don't mean they're wrong about everything. Somebody could be wrong about nine out of 10 things on that one thing they get right. As a Christian, I gotta admit, they get it right.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

And the culture war keeps us from doing that because it's all about pride and it's all about the scoreboard. So if I admit that when Erica Kirk forgave the assassin, that that was a big moment and that means something, man. You just let conservatives score a point by admitting that. So I'd rather not admit it or pretend that it was completely insincere. Although I don't have any evidence to show me that than admit that was big. Because I'm worried about the score. I'm worried about pride. I'm not saying how can I, number one, be honest, truthful, and show Christian charity? And I think what you're doing in that moment when you apologize is showing that Christian charity, which is necessary for any type of healing that's gonna happen within our discourse.

[Host 3]

I wonder how much, and I say wonder, that's not even a true statement. How would you speak to how much the fear of man drives A lot of the ways we handle disagreements, because I think people can, people who might not even lean left, but people who just don't fully agree with the conservative party. They could see that, like you said, and be like, was beautiful. But if I share that, if I post about that, if I retweet that, then it seems like I'm affirming all the things. But you also have people on the other side where it's like fear too, of looking a certain kind of way with your family or your church. And so you either don't say anything or you just say all the things, even if you disagree, but you won't say that you disagree. How do we also deal with that?

[Justin Gibney]

I mean, that's huge. The applause of men is a lot because you said it earlier. When something happens, I gotta say this. I got a virtue signal to let everybody know where I stand that I'm with you in your tribe. These tribes are cultish, right. You cannot question. You always have to be affirming, I'm in, I'm in, I'm in. Or else they looking at you crazy. Yes, man. I would say the motivation and even, I mean, I have to catch myself and say, why am I not saying this or why am I about to say that?

[Host 1]

Yes.

[Justin Gibney]

Is it because I want certain people to give me likes or is it because I don't want to be called. Called this or that as a Christian or as a black man? And we gotta fight against that. That's Christian courage.

[Host 3]

Cause you shared about her forgiveness thing, right?

[Justin Gibney]

Yeah, I did share.

[Host 3]

Did you get mixed reviews?

[Justin Gibney]

Oh, yeah, definitely got mixed reviews.

[Host 4]

And that's the reason why I've always appreciated, you know, this. I've always appreciated your content because you are not afraid of making either side mad. You know what I'm saying? Like. Cause one thing I hate is for people to be praised for being bold when their whole goal is to satisfy a particular crowd. That actually doesn't take boldness because you're getting your reward. It's like if I go to a Republican convention and just slam the people on the left all day, it's like, you're not bold if you literally don't care about the left, you literally don't care about nobody over there. So it actually doesn't take any boldness to slam them. Now when you see your side do something that's. That's because your side is not, you know, God. Right. They make mistakes and you speak up out about. That's. That actually takes real bonus.

[Host 3]

That's prophetic right there.

[Host 4]

That's actually real boldness. And so boldness is literally not like. Like, boldness is about obedience. And sometimes, oftentimes God will say, okay, yeah, you did this. Y' all said, I did this. Will you actually be obedient and say, impose what I want you to say?

[Justin Gibney]

Theologian Luigi Giussani said this. He said. Said, you have to love the truth more than you love yourself. Which I interpret also to say as, you have to love the truth more than you love your tribe more than you love your culture. Right? Because the truth is God. And so if I'm more in love with their praise and their validation than the truth, I'm not gonna say what I need to say. Now, there's a way that it needs to be said. Cause we also know people who like to be contrarian. So we're not talking about, like, a gimmicky contrarianism, where I'm just saying, right? I'm just saying something to get. Be provocative. But truly knowing. I rely on these people. I care about these people. I gotta tell you the truth.

[Host 4]

That's good.

[Justin Gibney]

Everything ain't the other side's fault. And the day that we think everything's the other side's fault is the day we have no power or agency.

[Host 4]

That's good.

[Justin Gibney]

And let's be honest, that's black folk we don't like. We live in a culture. And I would love. Cause y'.

[Host 2]

All.

[Justin Gibney]

And y' all should read Luigi Jr. Sonny. I think y', all, like, talks about that.

[Host 3]

You got to write that name down. That sound like a tongue.

[Justin Gibney]

I got you. I got you. Got you. But we live in a culture where nobody wants to be the hall monitor. Nobody wants to say, yeah, Trump's bad. We doing this to ourselves. Yeah, nobody wants to do that anymore. Like, it's.

[Host 4]

Because that's what I was going to say, too, because a couple of minutes ago, before we kind of got on this tangent, you talked about how sometimes we were just afraid to admit when the other side is right about some things. But also, we don't really get the overall goal that they was trying to accomplish. And I can kind of hear somebody saying, well, that's kind of my complaint about y' all with Charlie. Y' all don't. I think y' all miss him. Y' all don't understand his overall objective, his overall heart, his overall aim. Um, and so I want to be fair, because I think we should be fair to Charlie as well. From somebody who, you know, who followed Charlie, who went into space, even though he said things that might have been hurtful to some people. What do you think some of the good goals that he had? What were some, some good objectives that he had for this country? And you know, for the person who, who say, man, I follow Charlie because I feel like he was trying to point people to some place that might have been good, even though he might have done or said things offensive to a lot of people while trying to get there.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 4]

Like what were some things that he did that that kind of highlighted?

[Justin Gibney]

I think more than anybody recently, Charlie Kirk was able to go into academia, which is a progressive captured institution for the most part, and talk about, and convince young people about family, marriage and things of that nature in a way you don't see a lot of people doing. People were scared to go in there. Well, they'll keep. I mean, we've all been in situations. They'll kick you out of there.

[Host 3]

You ain't saying what they would just say to you.

[Justin Gibney]

Exactly right. It's very illiberal. If you don't agree with us, you're harming me. Therefore you don't get to come and talk. Yeah, well, come on. So I do say there was something to that. Now, I think some of those other things could hurt families, and so some of the other stuff was counterproductive. But when he's talking about family, when he's talking about hookup culture, which is something. When I went to college, I was all the way in and broken because of it, and broke a lot of other people because of it. We need to hear that these campuses is you go on there. Like one of the selling points is drinking and hooking up. Yeah, that's, that's, that's from Thursday to Sunday. That's their selling point of one of the reasons you need to come here. Yeah, that's demonic. Like people. And then when somebody gets in trouble or they do something they're not supposed to do, an 18 year old who you let drink booze all day, they. Now you want to send them to jail forever. Right. And so I do think Charlie went on and said this is wrong and convinced people on, on that. I'll give him, I mean, I'll give him that. That's something that needed to be addressed. And there are a lot of people who should have been addressing it that weren't. And he went into a, what we see, a dangerous environment and did that. There's something to be said for that.

[Host 1]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host 3]

I think it's an apologetic issue when it comes to what comes across as some Idolatry with Charlie Kirk. And I say that just in light of, of the constant stream of revival is coming because of his death, statements that Charlie died for us, things like that. I do, because it can feel risky for me to even say that out loud, but I feel like I'm inclined to because I'm like, I don't see revival look that way in the scripture, scriptures, you know, I don't see revival being more people coming to a particular party. I see revival as people recognizing all of their sin, whether that's liberal sin or self righteous sin, and submitting it underneath the gospel of Jesus Christ. Where to repent, we actually have to address what you need to repent of. And so even if an altar call is given, have we actually spoken to the actual idols in this room?

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 3]

And so I feel compelled by proxy of Jude3 to speak to why we should not be idolizing or how does someone discern if a party or a person has actually become an idol?

[Justin Gibney]

Justin, this may be a revival of ideological conservatism. Yes, right. That's very different than a revival for Christianity and the church. And the other thing about this revival that makes it, this revival that makes it somewhat suspicious is it's very politically expedient. And even when we look at some of the memorial stuff, it was mixed in with giving an advantage to a certain political group. I don't think the revival gonna have nothing to do with that. Nothing. A real revival is gonna have anything to do with that. So it is when we. You hit it on it earlier. So I'll repeat something you said. When we look at somebody, even if we appreciate, appreciate more of what they did than we say was an issue, we say was a net positive. That's your judgment. If we can't look and critique it, if we can't handle critiques from other people, that's where we have to start to think, is this an idol here? Because at the end of that, I know this was a man. I know there are things he did wrong. Can I accept legitimate critiques and have an objective conversation, impartial conversation about who this really was and how it impacted other people? That don't mean that I'm not going to your house and tearing down every picture of Charlie Kirk on your wall. It's not about that, but it's about are we willing to have an honest conversation or do we just want to take this moment and use it to our benefit and for our narrative?

[Host 3]

Because when I look at Jesus 1, I also think about how so many of Israel couldn't accept him because he didn't come as a politician or some person to over. You know what I'm saying? Like, he came bringing the kingdom, which was just so different than what Caesar was communicating or what, you know what I'm saying? And it's just like, he didn't come do that. Like, yeah, honor Caesar. Like, give to Caesar. What's Caesar? But give to God. What's God like? He just came different. And so when I think of revival, I think of a reorientation around what it means to be human in America. Like, to be loved, loving and compassionate and hard when necessary, even if it means that my family won't like me because I agree with another party or that my church will. I just feel like being ruled by the kingdom looks different than being ruled by the color red or blue. I genuinely believe that.

[Host 4]

Absolutely. And also not holding, like. Cause the reason why a lot of this stuff is an idol is, let's be honest, America is an idol for a lot of people.

[Host 1]

People.

[Host 4]

It's literally an idol when the scripture says, do not love the world, nor the things of the world. For if any man loves the world, the love of the Father is not him. For all that is in the world is the lust of the flesh, lust of the eye, and pride of life. We actually don't think America is a part of the world. Like, we, like. No. America is also a part of the world. And I know that scripture is talking about systems, not the earth and the trees. Right. But what I'm saying is, I do think that a lot of times we think that Christianity looks like God sanctifying a country and not sanctifying a church.

[Host 1]

Church.

[Host 4]

Like, God wants to sanctify his body in America.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 4]

And so I think a lot of times we look at America like this is a godly country. And it's like, no, like, the people in America, like, God is looking for people in America that will represent him. And so I think a lot of times we just. We, like, America can be an idol. So you can love your country.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

You should.

[Host 4]

You should love your country. Like. Like, in a lot of ways, I have love for America, but at the same time, it's like, no, America is passing away. This ain't home, and the list not home, and the lust thereof. But he who does the will of God will abide forever. And I just think sometimes we conflate the two and we get upset when people don't do the same.

[Justin Gibney]

Yep. I mean, you just described Christian nationalism. Again, that's the problem with it and the idea that it's somehow the purest form of Christianity because it's so close to a certain nation and because. Because it latches onto a certain history that has been romanticized adds to the problem that it is.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 3]

In your new book, you have a chapter where you are talking about engaging in all of this by the spirit. Can you speak to that?

[Justin Gibney]

Yeah. So one of the amazing things that I think the civil rights generation did was it didn't disconnect the spiritual from the social engagement. So you. As you. So part of what you see in the civil rights movement is they take these plantation songs, they take these spirituals, and they bring them into the streets. And you ask, why did they do that? Was it just to pass the time? No, these were. They're repeating disciplines. They're going into the valley repeating these disciplines. I got to treat everybody right.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

I gotta keep my eyes on the prize, because what I'm going through right now is tough. I gotta have the moral imagination to see past this moment. That's why they're singing the spirituals. Ain't just to have something to say.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

They're bringing the church into the public square. And that if we. If we lose that spiritual side. So for a lot of people, let's say you become like the Democratic socialists and all this, that's very materialistic. They talk about material and materials aren't unimportant. We're here. We care about what people have. Have. But if we push away the spiritual and only talk about that materialistic, we lose the moral order side of it. So, yeah, let everybody do what they want to do. Just give them what they need right now. Nah, we need moral order. Right. And so that's basically what I'm saying. How do we bring that spiritual that they brought into this particular moment? How do we apply the fruit of the spirit. Spirit to this moment? And how does our conservatism or our progressivism stop us from doing that?

[Host 4]

That's good.

[Justin Gibney]

And so I also have a chapter that critiques both conservatism and progressivism and how they would say how. I think Fannie Lou Hamer, Fred Shuttlesworth would look at those things and say, that's not God.

[Host 3]

Because I feel like I have to address this to offer back. How does someone. Let's say someone is progressive. How can. Cause somebody would say, you can't be Christian and progressive. You can't be Christian and Democrat. But my question is, if you are Christian and Democrat, how do you maintain Christian witness and Conviction as a Democrat.

[Justin Gibney]

So I would say this. I would say you cannot be a Christian Democrat faithfully and not call the Democratic Party out on abortion, on the sexualization of children or some of. Some of the trans ideology. I would say that. But I also say similar things for the Republican Party. So it's not about.

[Host 4]

Can you be one of the similar things for the Republican Party.

[Justin Gibney]

So for the Republican Party, I would say you can't be a Republican and not call them out on how they treat immigrants, how they treat the poor, or their lack of a plan for health care. So can you be in the party?

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

Can you be silent? Can you be all about that party and be silent on those issues? Yeah, I think that that that causes a conflict.

[Host 1]

That's good. Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

So that would be my. It's like, who. The party don't define you. My party's not my identity. My party's a tool that I use to try to get certain things done. I could. I mean, it could come or go.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

But am I willing to do what you talked about earlier, turn around and say, no, that's wrong?

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

And as a Christian, I'm not gonna stand for that. The problem that one of the reasons that we're as polarized as we are in America is because Christians on both sides, who. There's a lot of Christians on both sides have not done just that. They haven't turned around and said, nah, you're going too far. And I'm willing to lose right now to show you that this moral order or this justice is that serious to me.

[Host 1]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

I'm not willing to do it.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 4]

One of the critiques that I got all often is I was very vocal about George Floyd. Very vocal. And one of the consistent critiques that I got was, yeah, I saw you did a lot, but you're not as vocal about Charlie than you are about George Floyd when Charlie was a professing Christian and George Floyd wasn't. And so it's almost like this, calling black people out on hypocrisy for being loud about this issue and not being asked loud about a Charlie issue. And so one, I kind of felt like I got those comments in those DMs, because in. In my mind, I don't think they know how much they're making about race than I am. But how would you respond? Have you got those comments? And how would you respond to comments like that?

[Justin Gibney]

I mean, first I would say it's hard for me to understand how people draw that conclusion. Within a week or two of something happening. Yeah, right. Like, so you know that automatically I got to say. Tell me exactly what I got to say. So I'm not partial in this situation. Like, give it some time. Let me understand even what's happening. The investigation ain't even stopped.

[Host 1]

Yeah, right.

[Justin Gibney]

Like, I saw one. It's different in that you see him get shot. You don't see the person. The person calling out, please stop doing this right now. You know what I'm saying?

[Host 1]

Yeah, yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

There are similarities, but it's a different situation in that one person's in authority. One person is clearly asking, telling them they can't breathe.

[Host 4]

Yeah, that was. That was actually my response to a lot of people who dmed me who said. Because it was like, one. You know, when George Floyd popped up on the screen, I immediately knew what was happening. We saw the knee, we saw the neck. We saw the. I can't breathe. And so not only. You know what I'm saying? So 1. I have immediate information. And then the last thing I said, well, you know, George Floyd wasn't in the public square, and so we wasn't seeing somebody being mistreated who had a public opinion. And so, like, I think it's just unfair to compare situations when it's so different.

[Justin Gibney]

I don't think it's apples to apples. I will say that in both situations, I wish people would say that shouldn't have happened.

[Host 1]

Yes.

[Justin Gibney]

Which. That's fair to say.

[Host 1]

Both.

[Host 4]

Both shouldn't have happened. Both were wrong.

[Justin Gibney]

That main principle is the same. Neither of those men should have died. And that's what you want to hear. I'll say that.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

The rest of the details may be different, and we may talk about it a little bit differently, but also check the spirit of that question. What are you trying to get? I mean, obviously you're trying to show that I'm partial. But why. Why so soon? Like, aren't. Are you using this for your agenda? Like, to me, that feels like you're using this to prove a point. Is that the right spirit of how to deal with somebody dying?

[Host 4]

And one thing I challenge somebody is to be consistent. Because I'm like, if the main goal is to point inconsistencies out on me, you tell me how vocal you were about George Floyd.

[Justin Gibney]

Right.

[Host 4]

Were you as vocal about George Floyd than you are Charlie? And if you have a right to be more vocal about Charlie than George Floyd, why don't I have a right to be more vocal about George Floyd? You know what I'm saying? And so, like, I just kind of think, for me, I think sometimes the truth is, and this is just my opinion, somebody might disagree with it, but I think sometimes things might happen in our culture that will impact people differently. I got beat up by the police five times. And so the way I responded to that is not just me being black, but it's also like my past experiences. You know, I'm saying somebody who experienced sexual abuse, if they see a woman abused, it's going to invoke a certain emotion in them than a man who's never went through abuse. And so I do think that when we have comments like that, we actually don't consider people's experiences and how they. They respond when they see things in the public.

[Justin Gibney]

And if you're saying it in good faith, well, then help me see what I got wrong rather than just shooting me a gotcha question.

[Host 4]

Right, right. Absolutely.

[Justin Gibney]

You know what I'm saying that you can screenshot and send to other people. Right. Like, is that the spirit of really trying to come together and get along? I don't think that it is.

[Host 1]

Yeah, that's good. Yeah.

[Host 3]

It all feels discouraging.

[Justin Gibney]

Yeah.

[Host 3]

It just. It feels loveless and judgmental in some way where we're. We're being trained not to hope the best from anybody. You know what I'm saying? And so I guess I would just. I. I just think we have. This sounds crazy. We just got to follow Jesus. I don't know what else to say. Like, read the books, do the things. But I. I just. I just want us to be disciples and follow him in the way we're supposed to engage, just in the world and in the church, I guess. Justin, for you, what? Because we have a lot of different people that listen to this podcast. We have conservatives, we have Democrats, parents, We have pastors, we have cats. That's like 19. Like, I don't know what to do, you know? Like, I guess if you just think about all this stuff, how do we move forward as disciples in light of this cultural moment?

[Justin Gibney]

I think we have to see this moment as one for more moral clarity. And that means ordering our responses and what we're holding as prioritized, doing that the right, right way. And so one thing I think every Christian should be clear on is Charlie Kirk should not have died in that way, period. He has the right to have his opinions. I can agree with him. I could write a book on the disagreements, but it's not about that. I don't want anybody following me to ever think that was justified based on what I said, so if you listen to Justin Gibney, the first thing you going to hear is, that should never happen.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

Don't ever justify that. Don't ever make anyone think that's okay. Number two, I think. I think his wife forgiving the assassin is something that we should all say, wow, that's a big moment. Right. We should be able to do that and not be worried about the political consequences. See, when I say that, some people are like. But then people are going to look at it this way. I don't care. At some point, the politics of it can't be the priority. We can get to that later.

[Host 4]

Bible is Bible.

[Host 1]

Right.

[Justin Gibney]

And then I would say to the people who were big on Charlie Kirk, make sure. Let's have a conversation and let's make sure we're willing to honestly critique all of it and not dismiss the issues that other people had. Because there's. They're real issues.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

And. And I'm hopeful something like this can blow everything up. So we're in a. Yeah. Very concerning moment.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

If Christians respond in the right. Right way.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

If I'm a pastor at a predominantly African American church, my message to my people about this might be a little bit different. If I know 90% of the people disagree with Charlie, I might need to have a message about, despite our disagreement, he was a human being and that shouldn't happen. And I need to talk about us wanting redemption. I hope he was a brother. You know what I mean? Like, am I hoping he wasn't a brother or am I hoping he was? I don't know. I'm hoping he was like, I didn't like you. I don't know him personally. If I'm in a white evangelical church. That it. I might need to have a different message.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

I might need to say, okay, let's look at this. We're hurt. That's okay. Let's make sure that we don't move all the way over into Christian nationalism. Let's make sure, even if it's somebody, that I'm gonna hang his picture on my wall. That's your decision. Can I handle the limitations.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

Of what's. Of the individual that I'm talking about.

[Host 1]

That's. That's good. Yeah.

[Host 4]

That's good.

[Justin Gibney]

There can be. This can either go completely left or there can be a humble, honest conversation about how we can be better after this. That's the conversation I'm hoping to have. But what I know is I can't have that conversation if I don't turn to my people and say, hey, man, you going on your podcast and just wiling out on this dude ain't the best thing to do right now. It's irresponsible.

[Host 4]

Or a pulpit in a pulpit, either. It's like, right?

[Justin Gibney]

Look at what the. Look at the stuff that went viral.

[Host 4]

Oh, my goodness. It was a lot.

[Justin Gibney]

Questioning salvation. It's like, bro, that's not what your. How is that edifying a group of people who didn't agree with him anyway? Yeah, that's not edifying.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Justin Gibney]

And so I'm trying to do my part to say, man, this ain't gonna be easy, but, hey, man, we gotta be Christian in this moment. We can't be worried about the scoreboard. We can't just be worried about the racial conversation. Even if we even we come to the conclusion that he was racist. Racist. That's not the unforgivable sin. And that us coming to that conclusion is not going to fix everything.

[Host 1]

Yeah, that's good.

[Host 3]

Well, thank you, Justin Gibney. You're.

[Host 1]

Let.

[Host 3]

Let me reread you your thing again. Your book, your book. Books are so hard to write.

[Host 4]

And Justin G. Thank you for writing the book.

[Host 3]

Yeah, it takes so much.

[Host 2]

Go ahead.

[Host 4]

Justin Giby is the president of the AND Campaign. So you really quick watch you get the book. Tell them about the AND Campaign.

[Justin Gibney]

Yeah. So the End Campaign is a Christian civic organization where we're trying to raise civic literacy, help Christians understand the civic space more. But even more so than that, help them engage not as Democrats or Republicans or conservatives and progressives, but help them engage as Christians based on Christian principles. And we provide a framework for that type of engagement.

[Host 4]

Dope, Dope. Well, you've been doing great work, bro.

[Justin Gibney]

Great work. Appreciate it.

[Host 3]

I like the COVID too. Says, don't let nobody turn you around. I had to say it that way. If I could. If I could sing, I would. How black church is public. Witness leads us out of the culture war. So you can check the show notes to pre order or to purchase. Bye, y'.

[Justin Gibney]

All.

[Host 4]

Love y'. All.

[Host 2]

Peace with the Perrys is produced by the Perrys with support from Amanda reed and Channing McBride.

[Host 3]

Video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley. Edited by the team at Tread Lively, artwork by Hop and music by Swoop. Thank you for listening.

[Host 2]

Now go with God.