Real Christian Maturity and How to Have Lasting Fruit with Christine Caine

Summary

With The Perrys – Real Christian Maturity and How to Have Lasting Fruit with Christine Caine (February 9, 2026)

Episode Overview

In this episode, Preston and Jackie Hill Perry sit down with renowned speaker and author Christine Caine to explore the meaning of real Christian maturity and what it takes to have deep, lasting fruit as a believer. Drawing from Christine's decades of ministry experience and her new book, The Faith to Flourish: God's Design for a Rooted, Resilient, and Fruitful Life, the conversation journeys through the realities of enduring faith, biblical flourishing, the process of sanctification—even through pain—and how true Christian witness is shaped by both Word and Spirit. The episode is brimming with wisdom, candid reflections, and practical encouragement for anyone seeking to grow deeper and remain faithful in a chaotic world.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Longevity in Faith and the Challenge of Endurance

• Christine Caine reflects on nearly 40 years of following Jesus since age 22, sharing that endurance comes from staying closely connected to Jesus through His Word. She underscores that longevity does not necessarily make the journey easier; the enemy is patient and seeks to discourage believers at every stage.
• Quote:
  "The enemy's not nothing but patient... the longer you get, the more you will [appreciate enduring faith]."
  — Christine Caine (06:25)
• Christine’s personal commitment: finishing her race well so future generations can see examples of those who endure.

2. The Dangers of Neglecting Sanctification

• The temptation as one develops influence or spiritual gifts is to rely on them rather than on ongoing sanctification.
• Using the metaphor of physical injury and recovery, Christine explains that embracing the pain of spiritual “recovery” is critical for real healing and growth.
• Quote:
  "The pain of recovery is going to be far greater than the pain of the injury... The degree to which you're willing to embrace the pain of recovery is the degree to which you'll recover."
  — Christine Caine (08:25)

3. Symbolism of the Olive Tree and Biblical Flourishing

• Christine shares the story of visiting the Parthenon's ancient olive tree, drawing parallels to Psalm 52:8 and the significance of olive imagery throughout Scripture.
• The olive tree represents enduring, flourishing faith even in arid, hostile environments.
• Quote:
  "It’s not like a big oak tree... and yet over 200 mentions of olive tree, olive branches, olive oil in the scripture... All the wood in [the temple/tabernacle] is from the olive tree. It sent me two years down this trail..."
  — Christine Caine (16:11)
• Flourishing isn’t dependent on circumstances:
  "Whatever is happening around you, you can still continue to flourish if you are rooted and grounded in the faithful love of God."
  — Christine Caine (18:50)

4. Roots, Community, and Spiritual Disciplines

• Strong roots take time (an olive tree bears fruit after about 10 years) and are nourished in interconnected community.
• The enemy disrupts community to "uproot" Christians.
• On the misuse of "flourishing": the prosperity gospel has distorted the biblical meaning of thriving; true flourishing happens even in suffering, through committed spiritual disciplines.
• Quote:
  "Our root system should be so strongly grounded in the word of God and in the promises of God... If Christians are languishing like the world is languishing, why would anyone think that there's any hope in Christ?"
  — Christine Caine (21:58)

5. Real Christian Maturity: Knowledge, Gifts, and the Slow Growth of Fruit

• The misconception that knowledge or "prophetic words" are shortcuts to maturity; true maturity forms through ordinary, persistent means (community, fasting, prayer, scripture).
• Gifts are from God and say more about Him than about the individual. It’s possible to have gifts without the character to sustain them.
• Quote:
  "Your gift actually doesn't tell me anything about your relationship with Christ. It just shows me that God has distributed his gifts... The gift that is on you will destroy you if the character in you has not been formed."
  — Christine Caine (28:01)

6. The Process of Pruning and Leaning Into Pain

• Painful processes (crushing, pruning) are necessary for more fruit; these refer to letting go of self, ambition, and even "dead things" or previously fruitful things that no longer serve God’s purpose.

• Enduring these processes leads to intimacy with Jesus and authentic, long-term fruitfulness.

• Quote:
  "It's better to be marked by God than marketed by man... to be marketed by God, you've gotta be submitted to the process of ongoing sanctification—which means there's ongoing crushing. That's how oil is produced."
  — Christine Caine (30:53)

• Jackie reflects on dying to selfish ambition, focusing only on what God has graced and called her to do.

  • Christine's Response:
    "Ambition is mentioned in the Bible... Most times, Paul says, do nothing out of selfish ambition... But he also three times is very strong about godly ambition... The line is very sobering."
    (40:38)

7. Anointing, the Holy Spirit, and Lasting Impact

• Christine distinguishes between counterfeit, hype-driven “anointing” and true, Spirit-generated power.
• The Holy Spirit is essential for sustaining endurance and real witness in the world.
• Quote:
  "Many believers have a trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Scriptures, not Father, Son, and Holy Spirit... We need Christians with the power to be witnesses in this world that is falling apart."
  — Christine Caine (49:08, 52:46)

8. Global Perspective on Flourishing and Mission

• True biblical flourishing works everywhere—not just in comfortable, Western contexts—and is not tied to material abundance.
• Christine’s work with A21 demonstrates holistic care: rescuing, equipping, and empowering survivors, reflecting God’s whole-person redemption.
• Quote:
  "If flourishing is just attached or the love of God attached to what you have externally, then we can all pack up and go home because this thing does not work... I need to be able to hold [survivors'] hands and go, in Christ, you can flourish while some of you are experiencing the most horrendous conditions."
  — Christine Caine (57:38)

9. Final Exhortation: From Western Languishing to Global Joy

• Despite the abundance in the West, spiritual languishing is prevalent; Christine is moved by the faith and joy she sees in persecuted, poor, or suffering churches elsewhere.

• Profound perspective from the Chinese underground church—real flourishing is faith that persists even to the point of witnessing to one’s executioners.

• Quote:
  "I hope this is a wake-up call, because I've got a chapter about languishing...the West is where we're languishing the most, where we should be languishing the least."
  — Christine Caine (65:01)

• Christine’s closing encouragement:
  "I can’t promise anything will get better externally [but] Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. All the promises of God are in Christ Jesus—yes and amen. Therefore, we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us."
  (68:50)

---

Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes

• On the difference between "being marked by God" and "marketed by man":
  • "It's better to be marked by God than marketed by man." (30:53)
• On sanctification and the hard work of daily surrender:
  • "You don't really know whether you're in it for yourself or for God until the next round of pruning... It's supposed to be a daily process." (34:55)
• On ambivalence to suffering and the universal call to flourish:
  • "There is no way I can promise anyone that anything's going to get better externally ... but you can have him at all times." (63:52)
• On the global perspective:
  • "For God so loved the world... If flourishing only means [possessions or comfort], then we can all pack up and go home because this thing does not work and it's not real.” (57:38)
• On the underground church:
  • "The only thing we ever learned was how to witness to our prison guard on the way to our execution... That, to me, is flourishing faith.” (67:34)

---

Timestamps of Important Segments

• Introduction and lighthearted banter: 00:37–03:41
• Christine joins and shares about her journey: 03:41–07:29
• Enduring faith & sanctification: 07:29–10:44
• Olive tree metaphor and biblical symbolism: 14:01–18:36
• Flourishing in hardship, roots, and community: 18:36–24:22
• Discussion on real Christian maturity and misunderstanding of spiritual growth: 26:29–30:16
• Pruning, dying to ambition & ongoing crushing: 30:16–38:44
• Jackie’s reflection on ambition, Christine on selfish vs. godly ambition: 39:47–43:39
• Gardening metaphor for pruning dead things: 43:39–48:20
• Anointing, Holy Spirit, and genuine spiritual power: 49:08–54:52
• Integrating Word and Spirit, enduring faith: 54:52–56:55
• Global challenges, justice, and flourishing anywhere: 56:55–63:52
• Faith and flourishing in persecuted churches: 65:01–68:50
• Closing encouragement: 69:07–end

---

Episode Tone & Language

• Honest, deeply spiritual, sometimes humorous, and always practical.
• Christine brings warmth, gravity, and hope, rooted in decades of ministry experience and global perspective.
• Jackie and Preston infuse the conversation with authenticity, vulnerability, and real-life application.

---

Final Thoughts

This episode is a powerful and challenging resource for Christians hungry to move beyond superficial spirituality and into an enduring, fruitful walk with Jesus. Christine Caine’s global outlook, scriptural depth, and personal vulnerability are matched by the Perrys’ thoughtful questions and relatable reflections, making this a must-listen (or must-read!) for anyone seeking true spiritual maturity and lasting fruit in every season of life—with or without olives.

---

For details on Christine Caine’s new book, The Faith to Flourish, and links to her ministry, see the episode show notes.

Transcript

[A]

Well, the holidays have come and gone once again. But if you've forgotten to get that special someone in your life a gift. Well, Mint Mobile is extending their holiday offer of half off unlimited wireless. So here's the idea. You get it now, you call it an early present for next year.

[B]

What do you have to lose?

[A]

Give it a [e-mail] Switch limited time, 50% off regular price for new customers. Upfront payment required. $45 for three months, $90 for six month or $180 for 12 month plan taxes and fees. Extra speeds may slow after 50 gigabytes per month when network is busy. See terms.

[C]

Hello, saints and ains, how are you? I hope you're blessed. I hope you're happy.

[B]

What's good?

[C]

Happy. I'm sorry? Cause I'm happy. You know, I was talking to somebody.

[B]

That song was a. That song was like a vibe.

[C]

It was a good song. I was talking to somebody the other day and I was like, yeah, I don't really like happy songs like that.

[B]

I'm so shocked that you don't like happy songs.

[C]

I don't. I like songs in a minor key. I want there to be a tone of darkness there. Not demonic darkness. Not demonic.

[B]

Like what?

[C]

Just like, moody. Like, I like to feel.

[B]

I know you ain't lying. Cause when that Yebba song came out, that one Yebba song. My.

[A]

My.

[C]

Mama.

[B]

No, no, not this song about our mom. October sky.

[C]

October sky.

[B]

October sky. I'm like, why are we listening to this over and over?

[C]

Yeah, it is about her mom committing suicide.

[B]

But it was very creative.

[C]

Yeah, it was a beautiful. It was a hard, beautiful song. And I think life is.

[B]

You don't like some happy songs?

[C]

Like the. Some like.

[B]

I like Pharrell's happy song.

[C]

I just can't. I just can't imagine getting in my car and be like, shoot, let me find this, like, Pharrell song. Now I will say when. What does bring me joy is shout music. Okay? So if I'm gonna listen to anything, happy is shout music. And I remember I had a conversation with Lecrae and he was like, what's like, one style of music you listen to all types of people wouldn't expect? I think if you follow me, you know, I'm churchy. But that music, it does impute joy into me. You know what I'm saying? Like, when you're a person who has a melancholy bent, you kind of do need to find, like.

[B]

I just wanna say this. Most of our listeners know I didn't grow up in the church.

[C]

Correct.

[B]

The first time I saw shouting, I was so confused.

[C]

You thought they were obsessed.

[B]

I thought I was like, lord, yeah. Like, even I don't know what's happening.

[C]

Even clapping on the 2 and 4 is still a little hard for you.

[B]

You didn't have to say that.

[C]

It's not shade.

[B]

I can clap on beat.

[C]

Try.

[B]

Ain't no music.

[C]

So it should be an eternal look at you. It should put in your. You need a metronome. Welcome to the basement. Not the basement. That's another podcast with the Perrys. Mrs. Christine Kane. How are you?

[A]

I am awesome.

[C]

How you doing? Have you ever shouted in church, Christine?

[A]

You know, once or twice. I feel really good that my beat is right up there with Preston. Okay.

[B]

She's trying to shade me. Ms. Christine.

[C]

I'm not shading. I got.

[B]

I'm on. I got rhythm.

[C]

I didn't say you didn't have rhythm.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

I'm saying there's a feel insecure now. You are secure in Christ. You are olive branch, huh? In his tree. Okay. Ms. Christine is here. I don't know if I ever told you. I don't know if y' all know I used to be a part of a traveling conference Ms. Christine Kane was doing called Propel. Covid shut all that down. It just completely stopped. But one thing that Christine did to me that completely helped me. It scared me, but it helped me. Is one time, I don't know what city we was in, she on stage exhorting the people, and she's like, jackie, come up here and share with the Lord what you're discerning in the room. And I'm like, why is she doing that to me? Like, what are you doing?

[B]

She saw a gift in you.

[C]

But legitimately, that day, I was discerning all types of stuff. So it felt like. I felt like Christine. I felt like my time with you at Propel, like, was at kind of the beginning of me traveling more and teaching more and leading more. And I feel like she was using Propel as a way to, like, train me without my permission.

[B]

That's beautiful.

[C]

So thank you.

[A]

I'm so grateful. You know, I think it landed pretty well.

[C]

Yeah, it did.

[B]

Every time I go to Australia, I think about you.

[C]

Really? Yeah.

[B]

I can't go to you, like, the first person I think about. Cause you the first. You're the first Australian that I met, and you always look so cool and so swaggy. I'm like, man, I gotta go to Australia.

[A]

That's a compliment for you. I Need to say, have you. I have never asked you this. Have you eaten Vegemite?

[B]

Vegemite? Uh, that's an Australian thing, mate.

[C]

Okay. Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Nah, we go, what is that?

[B]

What is that?

[A]

It's a black yeast paste.

[B]

Oh, I never ate that.

[A]

No, I. I'm just. Put on you a jar. You put it on hot toast. And here is the secret. You're really only supposed to put a tiny, tiny, thin spread, like, hot toast, butter thin spread of Vegemite. But what we do to Americans when they come over, we put like an inch and they, like, throw up. It's awesome.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Oh, I don't want to throw up. I want to eat it.

[A]

No, I'm going to give it to you to eat, like, just a tiny, thin spread.

[C]

Yeah, we never did that when we went to Sydney.

[B]

Yeah, they always take us to, like, nice, like, Americanized restaurants, it seems like. But, yeah, I want to.

[C]

How are you, Miss Christine? How are you today?

[A]

I'm feeling awesome.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

You know, this is my 60th year of life, so I'm happy.

[C]

Praise the Lord.

[A]

Yeah, that's right. I'm celebrating all year. It's not till September, my actual birthday, but I figure if you live this long, every day this year I'm celebrating.

[C]

And how long have you been a Christian?

[A]

Since really a fully devoted follower of Jesus? Since I was 22.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

Quick question.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

What has been the secret of enduring?

[A]

Staying very connected to Jesus through His Word? So for me, it's the word, because.

[C]

I asked that, because I think we talked about this on your podcast, just about how I think the longer I've been in Christ and even experiencing people fall away for lesser things, I've just seen how, like, oh, like, the longer you're with him, it doesn't get easier. And so, like, I appreciate people who keep going more than I used to. You know what I mean?

[A]

For sure. And the older you get, the more you will. Because the enemy's not nothing but patient. So he, you know, pretty much in my life in the last maybe five years, most of the people that I personally know, not all, but most that have not finished strong or fallen away are actually older than me. My husband and Nick and I were talking even last night, and we're like, man, we've gotta be more committed to finishing strong because a generation needs to see people that finish well. And, you know, Paul said, I run my race and I have finished my course. And so I don't know how many really have finished their course. And so I'm Committed to that. And my mentor said to me really early on, she said, chris, be really careful what you pray for, because as many people as the Lord allows you to help, that's how many you can hurt. And so the enemy will make sure until you can maximally hurt the most to try to take you out, which is for all of us.

[B]

Wow, that's amazing. I know we're not talking about this, but you just sparked, like, seven questions in my mind. Being a Christian for so long, seeing, you know, I've had a great amount of friends who've fallen away, too, in my short time of being a Christian. You've been a Christian almost 40 years?

[C]

Yep.

[B]

What are some of the things he talked about? The enemy being patient? What are some of the things, over the years you saw the enemy kind of wear people down with that caused them to walk away from the faith? And what are some things that people can look out for as they grow in their faith?

[C]

We don't like small talk.

[A]

No, Lord, neither do I. You know, that's the one thing why you and I really get on is we're just like, screw it, go ahead.

[C]

That's it.

[A]

But, you know, when you are no longer committed to, like, ongoing sanctification, so you either think a position title or a gift or a talent can carry you more than God's sanctifying work through and through. So the minute you start thinking I don't have to deal with that, and it's not, I think initially in my. Again, just my experience from the people that I know, you kind of go, that's okay, and I'm going to shelve that, or I'm going to bury that rather than allow the Lord to shine his light on it.

[C]

That's good.

[A]

And here's the other thing. I think the longer you walk with the Lord, you really know how painful sanctification can be. So, you know, covering something up rather than really allowing the Lord to go in deep and deal with it. You know, I fractured my knee. I was skiing, you know, years ago, and I snapped my acl, tore my mcl, tore my meniscus, did all the things, and I had a hamstring graft. And the PT came in straight after my surgery. And he said, christine, the level of damage you've done, most people don't normally fully recover, like, get their full movement back into their knee. He goes, but actually, technically, your right knee is now much stronger than your left knee because of the hamstring graft, but because of all the scar tissue, and it's gonna take at least six months of intense and very painful therapy for you to get that thing healed and whole. And he said, so the injury happened in an instant. And so it was deeply painful. But the pain of recovery is going to be far greater than the pain of the injury. So you can either recover, wow, quickly or slowly, completely or partially, it's entirely up to you. But the degree to which you're willing to embrace the pain of recovery is the degree to which you'll recover. And I think, to answer your question, eventually you stop wanting to embrace the pain of recovery, and so you allow your gift to carry you to a place that your character will destroy you. And that's happened time and time again. And the Lord doesn't care how big your name is or the brand is, what you've got is a whole lot of people building monuments to themselves rather than to the Lord. And it says in 2nd Samuel 18 that because Absalom had no sons to bear his name in remembrance, he built a monument to himself. So if you're no longer allowing God to sanctify you, it's easier to build a monument to your name rather than continue to let the Lord's work go forward. So I think that it will take you out. It doesn't matter if you're 60, 70, and the enemy will wait till you can have maximum impact to hurt the most amount of people in God's body.

[B]

We literally can do the benediction. After that, you just preach.

[A]

What else is there to say? Christine?

[B]

Okay, that was great.

[C]

Great marriages really don't just happen. They take work and intentionality and prayer and fasting and conversations and travailing and endurance and love and picnics and dates and conversations and Gabriel and Michael, Daniel and Zachariah. And that's why I want to tell you that the Weekend to Remember Marriage Getaway is coming to a city near you. Weekend to Remember is a three day event put on by Family life designed to help couples strengthen their marriage.

[B]

I think what Jackie's saying is to have a healthy marriage, you have to be intentional. And when we went to Weekend to Remember, it was very impressive how intentional they are with building up marriages. We saw marriages from all walks of life, all ages, and it was just inspiring to see other people working on their marriages and also the community that people are able to form throughout the country.

[C]

Whatever season your marriage is in, if it's hard, if it's good, if it's boring, if it's fun, if it's biblically illiterate or seminary Trained. A weekend full of intentionality and growth is something that every couple needs. With 80 weekends to remember events across the country, finding one in your area is easy. Over the last 40 plus years, these events have helped millions of people. So learn ways to improve communication, resolve conflict, and how to restore romance in your marriage. Register now and save $100 using code [e-mail] that's weekend to remember.com Code Perry. Well, Chris, Christine Cain has a book called the Faith to Flourish. God's Design for Rooted. Hey, we on brand actually rooted, resilient and fruitful life, not seasoned life. This is what it looked like. So we're just gonna talk about your book. One of the interesting things I was sharing with you is that you're kind of like the platform you use to kind of communicate these ideas on how to be faithful and how to flourish is the olive tree and olives and all this stuff. I personally, I don't like olives. I don't think they taste good. Do you like olives, Jackie? You like them? Well, you eating vegemites?

[B]

Christine looked mad.

[A]

She said I'm Greek, how can you. I don't like them, okay.

[B]

I like olives.

[A]

You've never found an olive you like?

[C]

Nah, it just. Well, I ain't gonna hold you. I've only had them like on Papa John's pizza. Listen, I got people that eat, you know, olive oil martinis.

[B]

I cook with olive oil.

[A]

You have such a great palate.

[C]

I do.

[A]

You post the best pictures of the best food.

[C]

Correct.

[A]

I guarantee you you've had olives in your stuff.

[C]

It's like John Legend. I feel like I wanna like it and I don't.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Or like Alicia Keys.

[C]

No, you shouldn't.

[A]

Anyway, would you come to Greece with me and try different olives?

[C]

Yeah, that's probably the part where I want to go. These Americanized Costco, Kroger olives.

[B]

That's it.

[A]

That's the thing.

[B]

But Jackie, she has a great palette. She's made me a foodie. Yeah, but Jackie, she just, she could be kind of like, eh, like Jackie won't eat lamb.

[A]

Yeah. Wow.

[C]

That's beside the point. You talk about how you went to the Parthenon. Tell us the story of going to the Parthenon, seeing the olive tree and just the rabbit trail that, that took you down, literally.

[A]

So, I mean, I've gone so many times and there is, at the top of the Parthenon there is what they call the sacred olive tree. I mean, there's just so Much mythology around it. But what is startling is it's the most arid, dry place, and nothing else is growing. There's nothing else there except for the, you know, the Parthenon that's been there for however many thousands of years. And you look around and go, why is this the only plant that has kind of survived? And it grabbed me, and why. It really grabbed my attention, this particular. All the times I'd gone, I had been reading Psalm 52, and so, you know, which is just so full on. And David was, you know, again, running away from Saul, and he'd been betrayed, and there was gossip and slander, and he'd been lied about, and he's hiding in a cave, trying not to die. And then in the midst of all of this, he says in verse eight, you know, but I am like a green, flourishing olive tree. And it really. It stuck to me. So, of course, sometimes, you know, that's what happens. You read a scripture in the morning, and then you're out there in the day and you're going, okay. And now I'm looking at a green olive, you know, flourishing olive tree. And then it really caused me to go in. I thought, why of all the trees? Cause there are so many trees listed in the. And you hear so many sermons about different trees and the cedars of Lebanon. And I'm like, who wants to be an olive tree? It's not like a big oak tree. It's not in. In some ways, it's not. It's not grand. It's not majestic. And yet then I go down this rabbit trail of, you know, over 200 mentions of olive tree, olive branches, olive oil in the scripture and the nerd side of me. And then, of course, the. You know, I thought my mother was right, because, you know, you guys grow up with, like, milk in your bottles to feed your kids. I, like, had olive oil. Like, my olive oil Windex. And olive oil was the answer to life, the universe, and everything in a Greek household. And I remember all the times I'd go to school and I'd have, like, here's you. You don't like them. Olive sandwiches and feta cheese sandwiches.

[B]

Olive sandwiches, yeah.

[A]

And, you know, I just gotta say, in 1972, in Australia, that was not cool. Like, I was. So I had to throw my lunch out on the way to school so the kids wouldn't ridicule me. I mean, nowadays, the Mediterranean diet is everything. My mother was just.

[C]

You had, like, a probiotic lunch.

[A]

My mom was just way ahead of the time. I was like, on the Mediterranean diet when it was not cool. And. But then, you know, I really went in and looked at the tabernacle, looked at the temple and just went, oh, my word, there are so many. All the wood in there is from the. The olive tree. And it sent me two years down this trail. I went to eight different countries, olive farms in eight different countries around the world. Morocco and Slovenia and Italy and Greece.

[B]

You went South Africa?

[A]

No, I didn't go to an olive farm in South Africa. I wish I did. It would have a big one.

[B]

I thought I saw one when I was there.

[A]

You would have, because there's the vineyards down there, which are awesome.

[B]

We visited a vineyard our last day, and I think we saw a couple of olives.

[A]

Yeah. And so that was. Yeah, so they're there. You're thinking they're not there. But it was amazing to me then to go, there's a reason why this imagery. I mean, you're talking everything, like, from Romans. When we're grafted in, it's an olive branch. When we've been grafted in. I mean, in. In the Bible study that I wrote with the book, that's where. I mean, I really went to all those texts that people sort of leave alone, you know, what does it mean to be grafted in? And the Lord uses an olive branch. It's an olive leaf. When Noah and the flood comes in. And so, you know, I really unpack Genesis 8 and go, what does it mean in this CRE to extend an olive branch? And why after the flood, was it that. Why did. Of all of the trees we could have been grafted in when we got grafted in? And what does this mean? That we're connected to the promises that were given to Abraham. And how can we unpack all of this for a world that's burning down as we speak?

[C]

That's beautiful. What I love about that is, like, symbolism in the Bible isn't arbitrary. You know, like, it really is communicating something helpful. I want to read Psalm 52 again. I would love if you could unpack it for us a little bit, if we can. Psalm 52, verse 8 says, But I am like a green olive tree in the house of God. Like, are they all green? Are some of them brown olive trees? You know what I'm saying? Like, is green important?

[A]

Green is important because it's the flourishing side of it. It means everything around it is brown, but it is green.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

I trust in the steadfast love of God forever and ever. So, yeah, tell us about what is he Trying to say, and how does that, I guess, serve our ability to flourish?

[A]

Well, I think it's the key to me there, even more than the olive tree, is the steadfast love of God. So it's the faithful. He is so rooted and grounded in the faithfulness and the love of God that that is what is gonna sustain him. I mean, you've gotta remember where we are. And I think if you go back, pretty sure it's 1 Samuel 21 and 22, you know, he goes and he goes to the priest and he's given Goliath's sword and, you know, the shoe bread. And Doeg goes and tells Saul and the priests. 85 priests are killed. I mean, it's pretty rough what has happened. So all of this is happening around him. He's in a cave. And I think the big message is, whatever is happening around you, you can still continue to flourish if you are rooted and grounded in the faithful love of God. And I think we need this message. You know, we're recording this in 2026. I mean, the last 10 years. I'm 60 this year. I've seen the world change a lot. You know, I lived in a world where there was no computer and there was no Internet. My children didn't even know the world existed in those days. So the world's changed, the church has changed, but the faithful love of God hasn't changed, and the promises of God haven't changed. And if all the promises of God are in Christ Jesus. Yes, and amen. And Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Just because everything else has changed and everyone. And just because everyone else is losing their minds doesn't mean we have to.

[B]

Amen.

[A]

And so if we can again go, what does it mean to be rooted in the faithful love of God? And what does it mean to be a flourishing green olive tree when everything in the world is dark and only going to get darker? It's, you know, if you're reading your Bible, you know, it's not going to get better. And we have a world. And I'm hearing people everywhere I travel, you know, amazing things. I hear, like, either, you know, when this changes, then this promise of God's going to come to pass, or, you know, people still are referencing their life. Well, Christine, you know, before COVID my life was da, da, da. And I'm like, there was a time that B.C. stood for before Christ. But it's almost like nowadays we are. I'm going, okay, if Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever, and all the Promises of God are in Christ Jesus. Yes, and amen. And we have been grafted in. And the promises that God gave to Abraham are still for us today. Why shouldn't we flourish? Just because economically, politically, socially, morally, environmentally, the world is, you know, spiraling out of control for a believer, we should still be flourishing. Now, that does not mean there's no grief or pain or loss or. So I'm not in any way minimizing. And the book is very clear. In this world, you will not. You might have trouble yet. We're still supposed to flourish in the midst of it.

[C]

That's great.

[B]

That's very fascinating. I love how it's so much symbolism as it relates to olive trees, to our sanctification. I think that's dope. In the book, you don't just talk about roots, but you talk about the importance of strong roots and how an olive branch has strong roots. Like, what does it take for the Christian to have strong roots in Christ? Like, what does that strength come from and how do we gain it?

[A]

Yeah, I love that. And it's not only strong roots. They're very interconnected. That's what keeps them going. So the value of community. So we're saying. So, you know, he says, I'm flourishing, planted in the house of the Lord. So strong Christian community, the house of the Lord. I think that is what. What keeps us rooted and grounded. The enemy has run rampant in the last decade, causing so much division and chaos and distraction and getting people uprooted. And there is sometimes, and I mean, of course I talk about Jeremiah. Cause again, he uses the olive tree and the uprooting and the burning to the ground. And a lot of that we've watched in real time. It's like, look at what has happened. But out of that, our root system should be so strongly grounded in the word of God and in the promises of God. Again, I keep coming back to the promises of God. What I hate is that the prosperity gospel has hijacked the reality of biblical flourishing and fruitfulness. And I loathe that because. And I feel like part of why I wrote this book is to say I want to bring back biblical flourishing. So Christians are unapologetic about what it is to flourish, but that it's not hijacked by the prosperity gospel. And a lot of us are scared to talk about flourishing because we don't want to be misinterpreted about, you know, the hyper prosperity gospel. And so I thought, but in the midst of that, so many Christians are languishing because Their roots are not going deep because they're not realizing our very spiritual disciplines, which are the means of grace to keep us connected to God. We're throwing them away. And then we're wondering why we're languishing and why we're not flourishing. And then we don't want to be misinterpreted and go, well, we don't want the great American dream and the hyper prosperity gospel. I totally agree. That's not what biblical flourishing is. But we need to talk about what it is to flourish and what it is to be rooted in Christ because that is such a strong part of our witness in this dark hour on the earth. And if Christians are languishing like the world is languishing, why would anyone think that there's any hope in Christ?

[B]

Wow, that's beautiful. That's. I'm sorry, I just want to say that that was a dope visual for me when you talked about how they just don't grow, but they grow together.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Because it's like when you first plant an olive tree. I'm assuming the roots are not connected. But I think as Christians, as we continue to grow in Christ, if we don't come together.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and hold each other accountable and grow together, we won't last. So that's visual. That's still visual. Growing up, I've seen so many people, friends, family members die and leave their families with nothing. And it's not because they didn't love their families, is that they wasn't educated about life insurance and the importance of it. And so as we grow older and we have four kids, we want to start to think about how can we leave our children not just a legacy, but financial inheritance.

[C]

Fabric by Gerber Life is term life insurance you can get done today. Made for busy parents like you. All of it is online on your schedule, right from your couch. You could be covered in under 10 minutes with no health exam required. If you got kids, and especially if you're young and healthy, the time to lock in low rates is actually now. Now, if you have life insurance through your employer, it may not offer enough protection for your family and it may not follow you if you leave your job. But with fabric. Fabric has flexible, high quality policies that fit your family and your budget. Like a million dollars in coverage for less than a dollar a day. There's no risk. There's a 30 day money back guarantee and you can cancel at any time. They have over 1905 star reviews on Trustpilot with a rating of excellent Fabric also has tools to invest in your kids future and so much more. And you could do all of it from your phone. So join the thousands of parents who trust Fabric to help protect their family. Apply today in just [e-mail] perry that's meetfabric.com perry I said meet M E-E-T fabric.com perry Policies issued by Western Southern Life Assurance Company not available in certain states. Prices are subject to underwriting and health questions. I think what that comes to my mind when you talked about strong roots and connected it to community and then talked about spiritual disciplines. What I see, particularly on social media, and I'm sure it's present within our churches, is a misunderstanding of how maturity happens.

[A]

Right?

[C]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You know what I'm saying? And so I guess I see two things. One is this thinking that the more knowledge I gain communicates, the more maturity I have or the more prophetic insight I have communicates the maturity and the intimacy that I have. All of it is kind of rooted in just a misunderstood. Like God is actually using very normal, boring, natural means of grace to mature us. Community, fasting, prayer, fellowship. I guess I want you to talk to the people who feel like, no, like I went and saw the prophet and, you know, I'm strong in the Lord, or I'm in seminary and I'm strong in the Lord, like talk to the people.

[A]

Yeah, I love that you're saying that, you know, it takes about 10 years for an olive tree to bear the first fruit. And so it actually takes a whole lot of time. And I think this misunderstanding of fruit and root is because you can't see the roots. Nobody wants to allow that to be formed. And so what is happening? Either we think my high intellect, I'm in seminary, or I can just get away with sort of gifts as if, as if we gave ourselves our gifts. Anyway, this is what always amuses me. I'm like, your gift actually doesn't tell me anything about your relationship with Christ. It just shows me that God has distributed his gifts to his body as he sees fit. That's. It tells me about God, not about you. And so like, I'm like, God has got gifts.

[C]

How dare you say that?

[A]

That to me is like, but the gift that is on you will destroy you if the, if the character in you has not been formed. And so you could be in seminary and getting head knowledge, but not building any character and not allowing Christ to build character in you. I mean, even, you know, I mean, when, when it's written that, you know, you nullify the power of the Word through your just religious tradition. So you could. You could just go through the form and there's no power in the word of God. You can know it inside out, back to front in the Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic, but there's no power, because the power, the spirit of God, you're not allowing him to have his way in you. It's not, you know, that you get more of the spirit. Hopefully the spirit's getting more of you, and that's the sanctification process. So I think even so, you get maybe into some of the charismatic circles and it's like, I want more of you, more of you. It's like, well, you've got all of him that you're gonna get when you say what he needs is more of you. And that's really the sanctification process. But if you're running around chasing the latest word, so you've got two sides. You're either chasing the latest word from man that says it's from God when you could really read what God's got to say. And then a word can sort of confirm what the Lord's already saying. But it's just either laziness. And if you're lazy in going to the Word, you're probably lazy for allowing the spirit of God to really do the work in you as well. The other side is. And I think most of this has got to do more with personality than anything. Some people are wired up. They like to study. They like to. So you can hide behind that. Other people are lazy and they don't want to. So they want to sort of hide behind the gifts. And I'm like, both. It's God's word number one and it's God's gifts. So at the end of the day, they are both more to do with God than you being sanctified. At the end of the day, both can be an escape from the hard work of allowing the Lord to do what he wants to do in you. And both those things are God. It's his word and it's his gifts. So, you know, don't use God to put yourself forward. You've got to allow God again. The whole bottom line is surrender. You've got to allow God to produce that fruit in you. And if you confuse a gift with fruit, you're in really dangerous territory.

[B]

Talk about using your fruit like using your gifts before it's time. Because I think about an olive. I don't really. I haven't studied olive branches, but I know one thing about, like, grapevines or whatever, like, when it first started to form fruit, it doesn't mean it's ready to be picked, right? It has to mature, right?

[A]

It tastes terrible.

[B]

You'll spit it out, and you'll spit it out, right? And so, like, I think sometimes we treat our spiritual walks like that. As soon as we see a little fruit, we try to be useful to the world. It doesn't necessarily mean we're ready just because we're bearing some type of fruit. And so talk about the maturity of knowing when you're ready to actually go out to be used.

[A]

And it's a greater challenge in this generation because even if you have an ounce of fruit, you can actually take a screenshot of that, edit it, crop it, upload it, and ride that for 10 years. And there's no oil on it. There's no anointing on it. It's one little thing. And the Lord, number one, you've got to remember the fruit is the Lord's anyway. It's like it's his. He's the one that produces the fruit in us. Now, I'm a big advocate. Why I want people to flourish is because it is to our Father's great glory that we bear much fruit. So glory is at stake. This is what I think is at stake at the Earth. So what we're seeing at the moment is not necessarily a whole lot of fruit. Maybe something God once did. We've sort of like, I don't know, we've branded that one thing that's not like ongoing fruit. That's not fruit that keeps producing all the time. It's this one moment in time, this one thing that happened that the Lord did. And somehow we're trying to build a brand out of that, or we're trying to build a platform out of that. And you're like, hang on a minute. This is all back to front. The Lord is the one, number one promotion doesn't come from the north, south, east, or west. It comes from God. If you put yourself there, you have to keep yourself there. So you're no longer relying on the oil of God. You're relying on a marketing plan. And it's better to be marked by God than marketed by man. But to be marketed by God, you've gotta be submitted to the process of ongoing sanctification, which means there's ongoing crushing. That's how oil is produced. And the fact is that it's the oil. Isaiah says that it's the oil that breaks the yokes. And chains, not the gift. So a gift will fill a room, and a gift can entertain a room, but a gift will not break yokes and chains and bondages. Only oil does. To get oil, you've got to have Gethsemane moments. Constantly, wow, I'm 60. It doesn't change. You've got to constantly be on your knees. Nevertheless, not my will, but thine be done. That is ongoing, and that is what people don't want to do, because then. But that's the only way the oil stays fresh. So my value isn't, you know, if you don't have a discerning audience based on my gift, 40 years of, you know, longevity, pretty much stability. Not perfection, mistakes, but. But stability, ongoing repentance. Moving forward. I probably. There's so little discernment that as long as I don't do anything major, I don't Nick, and I stay married to Nick and don't do anything stupid. And, you know, I could probably ride on my gift into eternity, but probably not be producing any more fruit. I have to on my knees in Gethsemane, submitting to the process of crushing so that there's fresh oil every day. And that is what gives my ministry longevity and life and change in people's lives.

[B]

That's beautiful. That's beautiful.

[C]

Sheesh. This feels oily. I'm going to read a text in light of what you just said. This is John 15. I am the true vine, and my father is the vine dresser. Every branch in me that does not bear fruit, he takes away. And every branch that does bear fruit, he prunes that it may bear more fruit. Being crushed and being pruned is very painful.

[A]

Very.

[C]

And I've seen that there can be within me and in others the temptation to escape the pruning by finding other ways of comfort, you know, other avenues of escape. But there also is the temptation to withdraw from the thing. So, for example, like, I think last year was one of the most tempting years for me to not want to do ministry anymore because I was like, this is costing me too much. Right. Which would be disobedience for me to be like, yeah, it's too painful. I don't like dealing with what it comes with, being useful and da, da, da, da, da. Like, what is your encouragement, I guess, into? Like, how do you lean into the crushing? How do you lean into the pruning instead of running away from.

[A]

Yeah. Now, the good news is, as you get older, it doesn't get easier. But you do know that what's on the other side is worth it. And what I mean by that is the intimacy you have with Jesus is worth it and he's worthy. So here's what pruning does. Cause it says every branch that does bear fruit, that doesn't bear fruit will be cut off. And. And the branches that do. So you're pruned if you do, you pruned if you don't. That's the bottom line. And you don't really know whether you're in it for yourself or for God until the next round of pruning. And at every stage, that's what's revealed. Because, I mean, I got to a similar place a few years ago where, you know, I said to Nick, I know I can do it. I just don't know if I want to because I'm so cognizant now of the price. And then the Lord is like, so you thought when you just said yes to me and I'm laying everything down, you know, 40 years ago.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

That I was dead to self, and then I would deny myself, take up my cross and follow him. And it's like, that's supposed to be a daily process. It's not like when you get to 60 and have a certain amount of whatever, you're at a certain place of comfort and ease. Are you still denying yourself? Are you still taking up your cross? Are you still following him? And you don't really know. We hide it behind. I've got to pack a suitcase and I've got to go to six cities this week. And aren't I doing all this for the Lord? And then it's like, you go through years like you went through last year, and then it's like, what am I really in this for? Because it's no longer for either more followers or more impact or more. Where else do I want to speak? What else? I mean, at this point in my life, you know, it's not easy. It is now purely, hopefully, to run my race and finish my course so that when I get to the other side, I do hear, well done, good and faithful servant. This is actually what it's about. And I really wouldn't have known. Is it really about that till you get to here when I can hide now behind. You can hide behind success or you can tap out because it's just too hard. But the fact is that the things where I want to stop going, these are the things that I had prayed for, that I'd prayed that God would allow me to be used for his glory, you know, he would move through me. Well, the fact is, now I'm living in the result of those prayers. When I had one, a 21 office, it was really different to delivering programs in 22 countries and having hundreds of staff and all the stuff that comes with all of that. When nobody knew me, that was awesome compared to now. Millions of people have got their different opinions and depending what you know, so you're viewed now through the lens of everyone else. Does it still really only matter to me? Do I care more about what God knows about me than what people think about me? Now, I don't really know that until I find out what some people think about me. Then I'm like, oh, okay, God. But you know this. And I guess, is that enough for me? And I didn't really know that until the other flared up, that I'm in it for his kingdom and not for me. Because until you get to a certain point, you probably are in it for you. Until then, you can live in the comfort of being there. And you have enough, just enough Christian verbiage that you can get away till you go home with, like, I'm very spiritual. But you stopped dying daily a long time ago.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And God knows that. And that's what I said. I remember with Nick and I was such an emotional night. And I said nobody would really know. I could just, you know, I said, but Jesus would.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And at least as painful as it was, it's my most recent bout of pruning, I still knew I was in it for him.

[B]

That's beautiful.

[C]

This message is sponsored by Greenlight. With school out, summer is the perfect time to teach our kids real world money skills they'll use forever. Greenlight is a debit card in the number one family finance and safety app used by millions of families, helping kids.

[A]

Learn how to save, invest and spend wisely. Parents can send their kids money and.

[C]

Track their spending and saving while kids.

[A]

Build money, confidence and skills in fun ways.

[C]

Start your risk free Greenlight trial [e-mail] Spotify that's greenlight.com Spotify Time is valuable.

[A]

That's why Lowe's blueprint takeoffs turn blueprints into quotes faster. Bring us your plans and we'll generate itemized material lists to make quoting easier so you can get back to building plus. At the Lowe's pro desk, you get access to thousands of building materials not sold in store. And when your order's ready, we'll deliver everything to the job site. Improving is easy at Lowe's.

[C]

I was, I was gonna bring up Real quick, how just put some flesh on it, too, is like. I think it was a couple days ago, Preston came in the room and was like, how do you feel about ministry? And I was a little offensive, offended, because I felt like. I was like, what you trying to say? I don't love ministry no more? And he was like, that's not what I'm trying to say. I'm just curious about. And his reasoning was, you used to be doing a lot more. You used to be have these ideas and this vision and execute that. And like. And I was like, yeah. I think for a long time there was a level of ambition I had, but now it's become so costly that I've died to the ambition where I only want to do the things that I know I'm graced and called and commissioned to do. And I think there's something good about that.

[A]

Well, I think that's part of the sanctification process. I would agree. I have a lot less ideas because I don't want to come up with ideas. I want to be faithful to what the Lord's called me to do. And Paul says, I mean, you know, ambition is mentioned in the Bible. And most times he says, do nothing out of selfish ambition. Do you know? And it's actually very sobering to go, whoa, how much of what in my early years was selfish ambition? But he also three times is very strong about godly ambition. And, you know, I make it my ambition to make the gospel known where, you know, where it's not known. I don't want to build on another man's labors. He goes on, and you go, you.

[C]

Read the Bible a lot, huh?

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

Cause you just, you just, just spouting the mouth.

[A]

But it, but it's. But when you look at what is selfish ambition and what is godly ambition, the line. And you're talk, you know, here's someone talking that I want to, you know, I speak to people's purpose and destiny. I mean, that's what I'm known for. That's what I. I want to see people. People flourish. But I'm watching a generation in many ways destroy themselves because selfish ambition will take you out 100% of the time. Godly ambition is where you're flourishing. The truth is, this is not a downer. I'm hoping that I'm positive to people to go, oh, you don't even tap into life till you get into the godly ambition zone. And I would hope that people get into it younger rather than older. Some of that will just come with age. But social media is not helping. Because what we're doing is so scrolling through everyone else's life and then comparing. And Paul says, you know, do not compare yourself amongst yourselves. That is not wise. So there's such a lack of wisdom in comparison. And competition. Because fruitfulness and flourishing and joy is found when you step into doing what the Lord actually has called you to do. Whatever your field is. And whether you have one talent or you have five talents, the joy of the Lord and flourishing in Christ is no different. But those of us that maybe if the Lord's given us five talents, then we have a responsibility to make sure that we yield all the fruit. And that comes at great cost, because people will question your motives and people will a whole different thing. So then you have to get into a place, and that's where silence and solitude is crucial. Cause there's fewer and fewer people that will really understand that at many levels. And to stay faithful and go no matter what anyone thinks. So even as I get older, you know, well, haven't you done enough? And haven't you? And I go, well, I don't know. Are you measuring that? Or is the Lord, and it's him that I'm gonna stand before on Judgment Day, I have to give an account for every idle word for everything that I've done and not done. Which makes me a lot more circumspect on social media, because I will give an account for every idle word that I've done and said, and I will give an account. Did I run my race and finish my course? Not anybody else's, but did I finish my course not? What have women done before me? Or what are women doing around me? And. But that's really sobering, I think, for.

[B]

All of us before we move on. I kind of want to stay on this topic of pruning a little bit, because I think pruning is so vital to our flourishing totally. When I was. During the pandemic, I got into a whole bunch of hobbies like everybody else. Things that I don't do now. We stopped doing those hobbies we picked up in the pandemic. But one of the things I picked up was gardening. I started planting stuff in the yard. I was doing all kinds of. Yeah, I was.

[C]

Every day.

[B]

I was out there every day. And the Lord. The Lord began to speak to me a lot. Yeah, I fell in love with planting these. These, like, elephant ear, like plants or whatever. And when they started to grow, I. I felt really proud. It's like wow, that was my work. Did my hard work or whatever. And I remember the first time one of my elephant ears got really strong. I came outside one day and like three leaves were dead. And I felt sad. And what I kept trying to do is water it, water it, Water, water, water it. And it got worse and worse and worse. And one of the things I googled, it said, man, if that thing is dead, cut it off. Because one thing it said is as long as that dead thing is attached to the plant, that plant will continually try to give that dead thing life and take life away from the other leaves. And not only that, it prevents other leaves from growing. And so I think a lot of times when it comes to pruning, I think we're afraid to cut things off because we're holding onto dead things totally. And so talk about that fear. Get underneath that fear that makes people afraid to be pruned to begin with. And how can we overcome that so that we can flourish for sure?

[A]

And I think, well, it's our attachment. It's because faith is predicated on trust and not understanding. And so at least if something's even dead and we want to deny that it's dead, or at least, you know, you're hanging out with people that you shouldn't be hanging out with, but you think, at least I'm hanging out with somebody, you know. And until you can trust that God is gonna bring into your life who he is gonna bring in for your good and for his glory. The constant test for pruning is, do we trust God more than the thing that we see, even when we know that the thing that we see is not gonna good. So whether it's a relational thing or, you know, other stuff in our lives. And I think it all keeps come back to. And I'm coming back to Psalm 52:8, because David said, I trust in God's unfailing or faithful or steadfast love. If you can trust that God loves you. And if he's going to cut this area off, that's not. That's dead because he's going to bring something that's alive or something that's going to breed life into you. But the biggest, when you said get to the root of it, the root is, do we trust God enough for that? Preston I would say the big. An equally big challenge. So, you know, when I was first. When I first came to faith in Christ, it was hard to let go of things because, you know, I mean, I came from the background of abuse and abandonment and adoption all the things. So even though there were a lot of unhealthy attachments in my life from someone that was, like, left in a hospital unnamed and unwanted when I was born, you know, attachment was a big thing. So even if it was a bad attachment, it was an attachment for me to detach and allow God to cut things out of my life so I could attach to him more and more. None of that was easy. Over time, as I trusted, I mean, it was so scary, terrifying in so many ways for me to learn to attach to him. The challenge is, as you get older and more sanctified, there are less sort of like the big sin detachments that need to be made. So then it becomes hard, issues, motives, and then it becomes fruitful things because it says, every branch that bears fruit will be cut off as well. Yeah. Then you start going, so at this point in my life, well, this is bearing fruit for God's glory. This is bearing fruit. This is good. There's no obvious sin or evil, attachment or thing, man. Then you go to deeper levels of trust in God going, I'm gonna let you cut that thing off. And that's. And I'm trusting so that it will bear more fruit in other areas. And you'll find that as you get older and go more, it becomes increasingly good things that are no longer the God thing for your life that needs to be cut off. So you never get exempt from it. And you have to walk closely with the Lord and you have to continue to trust Him. Because most of the stuff that I'm letting go of at this stage and allowing to be pruned is really good, and I really love it.

[B]

That's beautiful.

[C]

When I was young, I write about this in, I think, Bible study about Jude or something, maybe. I don't know. I talk about my Aunt Merle, who, anytime we left her house, she would grab this little vial of oil. And then, like, I just remember the whole process. She was like, turn it over like that. And then put a cross on my forehead. I'm 5, 6, 7, 8. And I'm just not understanding why my forehead is shiny now. You know what I'm saying? I don't really understand why. And she did it every time we left her. You have this chapter where you talk about the production of olive oil and needing the Holy Spirit and anointing. And I think there's a lot of conceptions and misconceptions about what anointing is. Can you speak to that?

[A]

Yeah. And I'm so glad you asked, because I think you Know, and particularly in some of the stream of the church that I've come from, there's been such a misappropriation of that term. I mean, of course, it's the divine anointing of the Holy Spirit of God. And we're all once. If we're saved and we're in Christ, we've been filled with the Spirit, and we're sealed until the day of redemption. But I'm saying that anointing. I think somewhere along the line, many believers forget that we have. We serve a triune God, the Godhead, like the Holy Spirit of God. The same spirit that raised Jesus from the dead lives in us. And we need that because we weren't designed to do this thing alone. So the fact is, many believers sort of either have their triune God or their trinity is the Father, Son and Holy Scriptures, not the Father, Son, Holy Spirit. And so I think that that's on one side you could have that. On the other side is some people forget that we have a triune God, and then they're using the Holy Spirit more the way that Simon the sorcerer did in Acts 8. So the first time the gospel leaves Jerusalem and goes out into Samaria, where it's supposed to go into. To go towards the uttermost parts of the earth. It's signs, wonders, miracles. That's normally what God uses for the expansion of the gospel into new territory. But with every time there's the legitimate, there's always a counterfeit, and it's right there from Acts 8. It's not gonna go away. It's gonna be the same in the 21st century. But what happens then is you can get Charlotte that are out there, you know, send me, you know, 500 bucks, and I'm gonna send you some anointing oil, and I'm gonna sneeze on a handkerchief. And like, all this thing's gonna raise your dead cat from the dead. I mean, I'm being very facetious, very. With great intentionality, because all that is just Simon the Sorcerer nonsense. It's, you know, and so that's given in some circles, people like, what is going on? You know, you're snake handlers and there's this anointing and. And I'm like your aunt, though, because I've got my anointing oil in my bag. I'm going to my hotel room, My kids will laugh. I send my daughter back to Paris to college. I'm like, you anoint everything. I think they're scared of me. I'm not sure that they're really into the Lord. They're like, okay, Mum, here's the video. But I think there's no power in the oil. In and of itself, that thing doesn't have power. But I think if he can get you to, with great intentionality, be praying in the name of Jesus, there's great power. I believe there's great power. Power in the name of Jesus. And so to me, that's what that oil does. I mean, the oil's all through the Old Testament, you know, so I'm going, we have gone so far the other way that when we no longer talk about anointing or oil because of those excesses in that way. But I don't know how we could do any. I don't know how you could raise your kids without the anointing of the Holy Spirit. I don't know how you can stay married without the anointing of the Holy Spirit, let alone doing our ministry. And I'm talking then as much as going to work every day. I don't know how you would survive in this world. I wouldn't want to do this alone. So I guess with two chapters of great intentionality, I talk about the Holy Spirit being our guide. And I'm saying, can we remember if Jesus, God incarnate himself, said, it is better that I go. Just wrap your head around that. That it is better that I go. And then. And so that another will come. So, you know, and then we will receive power. And I think this is where we Forget in Acts 1:8, to what not to do witnessing, but to be witnesses.

[C]

That's great.

[A]

And so this is what we need in 2026 on the Earth. We need Christians with the power to be witnesses in this world that is falling apart. What we've done is change. And I'm an evangelist. I mean, that's why I love Preston so much. Like, I'm to my bone. But giving someone, you know, four spiritual laws, tract and going, this is what I want to show teach you how to do witnessing. I mean, that's not even in the Bible, as in, like, you know, but if I can teach, if I can direct you to again call upon the power of the Holy Spirit so that you can be a witness, which is what Jesus said. Could you imagine how all the workplaces would change where believers are, how colleges would change, how we act online, and how, like, you know, we. We either want to do witnessing and we don't even do that well, or we want to, you know, get out there and we just, you know, I'm Going to take on every government structure, and I'm going to take on this and I'm going to take on that. And I just think, man, if you just in quietness, in confidence and in strength, relied on the power of the Holy Spirit to be a witness, it is amazing how that would change, I think, so much of the landscape of the church and the world. And so I think. I think I'm more passionate about saying, could we rediscover the triune God? Could we then say, what might it be to have the power to be a witness? And again, that's not separate from. There's a direct correlation between sanctification and crushing all of these things. The gift of the spirit and the fruit of the spirit. We have nine of each for a reason. So we've either gone, where are fruit trees? Or we're a gift church. I'm like, I don't know if either of you are a church, then, because we're actually supposed to have both. I'm a spirit person. I'm a word person. I'm like, what Bible are you reading? We're both. And so if we could bring. And I think I've attempted to do this, can we bring them both together? Because that's how we're gonna have the power to be witnesses in the world.

[B]

I've had people say that to me over the years. It's like, you and Jackie got a teaching ministry. These people, they got prophetic.

[C]

It's like, no teaching is prophetic.

[B]

And like, I think you're right. They're all supposed to be kind of together. And I don't know how we over time started to separate. So maybe because certain church denominations, they value other things, but I think that all of it should be valued.

[A]

Cause all of it is what Totally. And I think the more holistic we can present it, I think the greater that it is. Because you've got people that are just like, signing up for the dial of prophecy thing. And I'm like. I'm like, what? That is just causing so much destruction in the body. But equally, word without spirit is just causing a dryness. So you've got. You're drying up or you're basically blowing up, you know, and that's not endurance. And what you learn from the olive tree is it endures. Like, the thing is, I think the oldest olive tree they say that's on Earth, is in Crete. It's 3,000 years old. They endure five storms. And so both extremes, either drying up or blowing up, are not enduring Christianity. And because we want quick fixes. We're either gonna go to whichever one is gonna work best for us. If you're wired up a particular way, you're gonna go more the academic route. If you're not wired up that way, you want instant answers or you want something that's gonna confirm what you wanna do anyway and you're gonna go for the easy path. And what I'm saying is there is no easy path. There is no easy path. So. So we need to be deeply rooted in the word of God and deeply empowered by the spirit of God simultaneously. And that is how I think we're gonna appear, flourishing in the world. So you've got this one stream that thinks if we can just be exempt from pain and struggle, and I'm gonna give you a great word that's gonna get you out of this, but you can't be exempt from it. Jesus didn't take us out of this world. We're in it, but not of it. So what does it mean to be in it but not and to have an enduring, resilient faith? I think is one of the greatest testimonies in our generation.

[C]

That's great. Before we started, we were talking about just kind of what's happening in the world with ice, with politics, with it, just with Nigeria, with Gaza. There's a lot going on all over the place. And you were saying how if this book doesn't work or not the book, but it's. If these truths don't work all over the world, then it's not true. And so I wanted to just hear you talk about how flourishing, fruitfulness, rootedness, how that can help us be on mission or be rooted in, like, how does that help us when we think of global stuff? Does that make sense?

[A]

Yeah, it really does. Because I think sometimes we could become very myopic. I mean, we've all got our context and we've got gotta work this thing out. But for God so loved the world, so the whole world. And you know, for me this is so real every day. You guys know I run a 21, you know, so it's Global Anti Trafficking Organization. I just think like even now as we're recording this, I have an office in Cambodia and in Thailand. Well, those two countries are just at war with each other. So you go, okay, this is real. Cause I have staff, there's trafficking. That what happens in between all of that? How does this work? We've got offices in Cape Town, I've got offices throughout Europe, every continent in the world, South America. So I'M going, if flourishing only means. So here's where it goes wrong with the hyper prosperity gospel. If it means you've just got really good stuff, what does that mean for the people that are like in my Cape Town office, you know, serving communities in townships like that are never, not this side of eternity, while anyway are going to have the kind of material stuff that we have in our everyday thing. If flourishing is just attached or the love of God is attached to what you have externally, then we can all pack up and go home because this thing does not work and it's not real. But nowhere does scripture say that's flourishing. Now though, if I can't reach into those communities and go, you can flourish. So what does that, that mean how can you thrive? And also your material world can change as well. Like, you know, you go to those communities, they're asking me for help, like, how can. And so we have work programs and we have great things because I believe God cares holistically about all of you, body, soul and spirit. So I'm not just going to pull you out of slavery. I want to stop the systemic injustice that leads to that and then give you opportunities to build businesses outside of that so that you don't get back into that either poverty or trafficking cycle. So I'm thinking of it holistically because I think God does so flourishing has to do with all of it. But we can get so caught up in thinking. My issue in my corner of the world right now is the only thing that matters now. It's really healthy to pause and think. The world's been around for a really long time. Most things have come around in cycles. And this one thing is not the be all and end all. And I think sometimes we have to, I think, always remember there is a bigger God picture at play and we have to set our minds on things above. And so to me, I view everything temporally through an eternal lens. So I'm constantly thinking of our telos, whatever major thing is on at the moment. And so.

[B]

So.

[A]

You know, in an accident, my friend is a first responder. They know when their ambulance turns up to an accident, the last person they go to help is the one that's screaming the loudest because that person's gonna be okay. They've got the energy. They're going to the ones that are out, that are quiet, that are done. I think sometimes and because of social media, we've got to be really careful, some things are elevated and in an eternal perspective and what God in his sovereignty is doing on the earth right now, just because it's the squeaky wheel and it's very noisy and it's loud. You have different tags, like, you put yellow tags, red tags, green tags on depending on how serious something is. And sometimes I think we're running to the ones that we go, that's gonna be okay. It's actually gonna be okay. It'll run its course. And there are so many things happening, and you need the mind of Christ to go, lord, where are you? Where is the thing that really needs cpr?

[C]

That's like triage very much.

[A]

And so you look at that in the natural. That's how it's done. Just with ambulances going to the scene of an accident. But we are. If we're ministers, that's what we are. So we go, okay. There are very real things. The systemic injustice in the world. And because I have officers on every continent, we could sit here and talk 10 podcasts on so much injustice in so many different places and racism in so many different countries, and misogyny in so many different countries, and systemic abuse and so in so many places, horrific genocides. You know, my family ended up in Australia because of the genocides. In Turkey with my grand. My grandparents, the genocide in Egypt with my parents. I mean, we could go on and on and on. So. So what I'm saying is it's very real. It's a very fallen world. It's a very evil world. And so we need the mind of Christ and we need to know, where do we say what and do what and where are we running to give care? So to me, I want everyone to flourish. And I go, I gotta be able to look at the kids in Cambodia that are five years old that we're helping to move out of a war situation and go, in Christ, you can flourish while bombs are dropping and missiles are coming. And that's not easy, I'm saying, to really be able to believe, to do that to the challenges. You know, we've got four offices here in America, and there's just crisis happening everywhere. Really devastating stuff. I need to be able to hold their hands and go, in Christ, you can flourish while some of you are experiencing the most horrendous conditions in this moment. So there is not an easy answer, is what I'm saying to all of this. And yet I'm. Why am I smiling? Because all the promises of God are in Christ Jesus. Yes, and amen. And therefore, I believe there's a promise. And that doesn't mean you're gonna have everything all the time, in every circumstance, but you can have him at all times. So that means in this moment, the promise part of him that is going to be most resilient in your life is, I've got hope when nobody else has hope. I have peace when nobody else has peace. I have joy when nobody else has joy. So whatever it might be in that moment, that's going to get you through as his overarching plan is going to play out in your life.

[C]

Amen.

[B]

That first respond, responder analogy was so great because I think a lot of times we. And when I say we, just people on social media, we can become so passionate about the loudest thing. When you just talked about the whole world. And I think that, man, I always have people attack me every single time something happens. They feel like I should be talking about something.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

It's like I actually want to talk about what the Lord wants me to talk about because which, to your point, it's a huge world. And I think God is going to give, like, we're a body of Christ and he's going to give some of us more of like a passion to talk about this or to fight for this. But this injustice is everywhere. And I think the things that the loudest, I get the most attention and.

[C]

Can I sing a song like that?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

He's got the whole world in his hands he's got the whole world Y' all know what I'm saying?

[B]

I don't have no rhythm.

[C]

In his hands. Do you have any closing encouragements, challenges, prayers, scriptures that you just want to put before the people? Yeah.

[A]

I hope this is a wake up call, because I feel we've been languishing too long. And, you know, I've got a chapter in there about languishing because, you know, if I was sort of to look at the body as I travel, I find that the west is where we're languishing the most, where we should be languishing the least. So, so many other places that I go to that I think y'. All. I think I would be like tapping out right now if this. If this was. And yet the joy of the Lord, the peace of God that I see in believers, you know, whether it's they're in abject material poverty or it's part of the persecuted church, and I'm like, why have you not given up? Why are you still believing in Jesus? Like, am I even a Christian? Literally, there was a country that Nick and I went to just very recently, and I'm like, like, Nick, am I even saved. Do I even know Jesus? Like they need. Because they're like, let me end with this. I was once speaking to 500 leaders of the underground church in China. And they had been brought out to a certain part of southeast Asia. There's four major streams of the underground church. So it was 125 leaders from each stream. It was the first time they were brought together in this one room. Of course, it's so dangerous to do that anyway, as what they had invited me and asked me to come was because. Because they're hemorrhaging the younger generation because of urbanization, industrialization, globalization, Internet, all the things. What had happened was when the revival hit, it hit mostly. I mean, the greatest revival in the church in our generation is in the Chinese church, where it's been illegal to be a Christian. And so that sort of revival spread amongst agrarian, uneducated workers because they had killed, you know, obviously a lot of the. The sort of educated class. So they so depended on the Holy Spirit. And it would seem almost simplistic to. And so the kids are growing up the faith of their parents that what the kids would have thought was the naive, blind sort of faith. But they're like, they didn't have access to reading and writing. They just needed God or, you know, even Nick. Back in the day, my husband smuggled Bibles into China. They would have maybe one verse or one chapter. That's all you had. And that was what you built it on. So then the kids grow up, they have access to the world and education because their parents faith has believed God. And they put them through school and then. But then they're feeling like, man, this Christianity is a bit unsophisticated. And the faith of my parents is so unsophisticated. And now I'm more evolved. And we don't need God. We have science, we have technology, we have all the things. And so they said, christine, you know, could you help us make maybe reach a younger generation and learn some leadership? Because we never learned leadership. The only thing we ever learned was how to witness to our prison guard on the way to our execution. So when they said that, I didn't think I heard it correctly. I got my translator to go. And they go, most sincere, humble people, you know. No, no, the only thing we learned was, you know, how to witness the grace of Jesus to our prison guard on the way to our execution. Like I said, start bawling. And I got on my knees right there. I said, I don't know what you think I'm here to give you. I can't think of one thing in this moment that I could personally impart to you that would in any way enhance your relationship with Jesus. You know, Paul says, I pray that I might impart to you some spiritual. I go, I don't feel like I've got anything. And I go, but would you lay hands on me? Because whatever that thing is that you've got that faith, and, you know, I would go so far as say, that flourishing faith that would cause you to want to do nothing else but talk to someone about Jesus, as they're going to kill you. That, to me, is flourishing faith. I said, I want that. That's what I want in my life. So I guess I want to say to someone, no matter what your circumstance is, because there is no way I can promise anyone that anything's going to get better externally, economically, political, morally. I mean, you know, insert whatever. But one thing I can promise you, Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. All the promises of God are in Christ Jesus. Yes. And amen.

[B]

Amen.

[A]

Therefore, we can do all things through Christ Jesus who strengthens us.

[C]

Amen.

[B]

That's beautiful.

[C]

Thank you, Miss Christine.

[B]

Thank you, Miss Christine.

[C]

You want to show the book?

[B]

Yeah, man. So this is the faith to flourish. God's design for rooted, resilient and faithful, fruitful life.

[C]

It will be in the show notes if.

[B]

If it's anything that you want to, you know, follow us, to know, like, where to follow you, any details, all the things.

[A]

I mean, you know, I mean, she.

[B]

Christine Kane. It's a big world.

[A]

It's a big world It's a big.

[B]

World It's a big world. She dope. Follow her.

[C]

It's all the stuff is in the show notes.

[B]

Thank you.

[C]

Bye, y'.

[B]

All.

[C]

With the Perrys is produced by the Perrys with support from Amanda reed and Channing McBride. Video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley Edited by the team at Tread Lively. Artwork by Hobb. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.