Margaret |14

Summary

Witness: William Tyrrell - Episode 14: Margaret

Release Date: May 20, 2025
Host/Author: news.com.au

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Introduction to Margaret Cox's Case

In Episode 14 of Witness: William Tyrrell, host Dan Box and co-host Nina delve into the unsolved murder of Margaret Cox, a 38-year-old single mother who disappeared on the night of December 19, 1996, in Taree, New South Wales. Last seen at a service station near Mud Bishop's Point Reserve, Margaret’s body was discovered two days later in the Manning River, her death ruled as resulting from blunt force trauma and sexual assault.

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The 1996 Investigation

Nina narrates the harrowing details of Margaret’s last known activities. On the night she vanished, Margaret was part of a group consuming alcohol and marijuana before heading to a nightclub in Taree. Witnesses reported conflicting accounts of her time at the service station:

• "Two people who worked at the service station told police they saw Margaret with either another man, two men who bought a cigarette lighter and then left." (06:18)
• "Someone else told the police that he saw Margaret at the service station surrounded by a group of men and screaming." (06:28)

The investigation quickly focused on the theory that a local individual was responsible, given the secluded nature of the area at night. Despite extensive efforts, including thousands of inquiries and multiple police teams from Newcastle, the case remains unsolved. The coroner’s inquest in 2010 concluded there was insufficient evidence to determine the exact circumstances of Margaret’s death or identify her killer.

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Introduction of Frank Abbott

Frank Abbott emerges as a pivotal figure linking Margaret’s case to other unsolved crimes. Abbott, a Gold Coast businessman serving time for child sex offenses, was previously acquitted in the murder trial of Helen Harrison in 1991.

Gary Jubilin, a former detective involved in both the Margaret and William Tyrrell cases, shares his reservations about Abbott:

"He was just. There was just something about Frank. I didn't like him and I never liked him... he was just creepy." (45:10)

Despite these personal observations, there has been a lack of substantial police investigation into Abbott's potential connections to Margaret’s murder.

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Recent Developments from the William Tyrrell Inquest

A significant breakthrough occurs when a witness statement from Iris Northam surfaces during the inquest into William Tyrrell’s disappearance. Iris, along with her husband Dooley, reveals startling information:

"In her witness statement to the William Tyrrell inquest, Iris explains how she first met Frank Abbott." (17:26)

Iris claims that her friend Noel Sonter observed Margaret at Frank Abbott’s residence shortly before her disappearance, noting she had a bandage on her arm—an injury consistent with hospital treatment for an infection.

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Interviews and Key Insights

Dave Woolnow, the detective who led the original Margaret Cox investigation, expresses regret over the unresolved case:

"He's a good man who did his best with the investigation and who deeply regrets not being able to give Margaret's family an answer as to who killed her." (29:59)

Meanwhile, Gary Jubilin criticizes the depth of the police investigation into Frank Abbott:

"My personal opinion is I don't think they've investigated Frank Abbott enough." (42:42)

Iris and her husband recount their attempts to inform authorities about the new information, only to be met with indifference:

"One of the girls that was with him said, oh, we'll mention it to the cold case detectives." (37:59)

However, five years after Iris provided her statement, there has been no follow-up from the police regarding her claims.

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Potential New Evidence and Police Inaction

Nina and Dan explore the implications of Iris's statement, connecting Margaret’s hospital discharge with her alleged sighting at Frank Abbott’s house. This association raises significant questions about Abbott's potential involvement.

"So that puts her at Frank's house the day she went missing." (32:25)

Despite the compelling nature of this connection, the police have not pursued this lead. Efforts to contact Noel Sonter have yielded limited information, with Noel unable to recall specific details about the woman he saw with Frank.

Gary Jubilin remains skeptical yet concerned about the lack of investigation:

"Frank's name didn't come up in the investigation." (34:07)
"We’ve all said all along that the police never investigated Frank enough." (45:08)

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Implications and Ongoing Mystery

As the episode concludes, Witness highlights the intertwining of Margaret Cox’s unsolved murder with other cold cases in the New South Wales north coast region. The emergence of Task Force Metz, a dedicated unit that previously sought connections between multiple unsolved murders, adds another layer of complexity.

The persistent lack of communication and action from law enforcement leaves Margaret Cox’s family without closure and raises critical questions about the efficacy of cold case investigations.

"As we learn more about Margaret's death, that begins to seem completely inexplicable because we learn there was once a dedicated police task force called Task Force Metz, who reportedly looked for any links between Margaret's killing and three other unsolved murders." (44:08)

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Conclusion and Next Steps

Episode 14 effectively uncovers the lingering shadows of Margaret Cox’s tragic death while intertwining it with the ongoing mystery of William Tyrrell’s disappearance. By revealing potential connections to Frank Abbott and highlighting the gaps in police investigations, the podcast urges renewed attention and comprehensive inquiry into these unresolved cases.

Listeners are left anticipating the next installment, which promises to explore further connections and possibly shed new light on these enduring mysteries.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Nina:

  "I'm waiting for you to say so, Dan, where are we?" (00:10)

• Dan Box:

  "Well, I was gonna say where we were." (00:14)

• Iris Northam:

  "That woman had a bandage or something on her arm." (27:45)

• Gary Jubilin:

  "He had a beautiful daughter. She was gorgeous. She was really lovely." (45:35)

• Dan Box:

  "They never investigated Frank enough." (42:42)

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Credits:

• Executive Producer: Nina Young
• Sound Design: Tiffany Dimmack
• Producers: Emily Pidgeon, Nicholas Adams Jasbar, Phoebe Zukowski Wallace, Tabby Wilson
• Research: Aidan Patrick
• Original Music: Rory O'Connor
• Lawyer: Stephen Coombs
• Editor: Kerry Warren

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If you have any information regarding Margaret Cox's or William Tyrrell's cases, please contact Crime Stoppers at 1800 333 000 or email [e-mail].

Transcript

[Dan Box]

All right.

[Nina]

Okay.

[Dan Box]

We've just pulled up.

[Nina]

No, we haven't.

[Dan Box]

Okay.

[Nina]

Nina and I have spent too long together.

[Dan Box]

Well, I was going to say what's on the sign certainly helped you.

[Nina]

No, yeah, I know where we are. That's right.

[Dan Box]

For the recording audience.

[Nina]

We've started to bicker at each other. I'm waiting for you to say so, Dan, where are we?

[Dan Box]

Well, I was gonna.

[Gary Jubilin]

You know what?

[Dan Box]

For once I was gonna say where we were.

[Nina]

Yeah, but we hadn't pulled up with. Should we not bicker anymore? But in fairness, we're two years in to working on this podcast, months past where we expected to finish and we're both tired. Can we do a piece to microphone?

[Dooley]

Just talk.

[Nina]

I'll talk. Yeah, you record, I'll talk. We're also still driving right now. We're near the small town of Oldbar on the mid north coast of New South Wales, which is about 3/4 of an hour south of Kendal, the town where William Tyrrell was reported missing. Driving this dirt road, we pass between two walls of forest, the trees seeming to crowd closer in upon us. Then suddenly the country opens to our right. There are long empty beaches, the blue sky, the sun sparkling in the water. Holy fuck, it's gorgeous. Or it would be gorgeous if this wasn't the likely site of another unsolved murder. And getting out of the car, the wind wasn't whipping in as sharp as knives across the ocean. This is a place called Mud Bishop's Point Reserve. You can hear the trees and just over there is the water coming down from the Manning River. And it's, it's a beautiful place. Out to our right there's just these golden beaches. But back in December 1996, a 38 year old mum called Margaret Cox. She had three kids. She was last seen on a Thursday night in Taree, which is about 20 kilometers away from here. And a couple of days later her body was found found in the water near here. Margaret's underwear, carrying the DNA of four other people was found at the picnic reserve near where Nina and I are standing. Like Helen Harrison, whose death we looked at in the last episode, Margaret's killing is still unsolved, meaning her family don't have any answers except that a coroner found she had been raped, was killed by blunt force injuries to her head, and that it wasn't possible to say if Margaret was still alive when her body was put in the water. And the other thing the coroner found was that it was most likely a local who was involved in whatever happened to Margaret. Because this area's a long way out of town at the end of a long dirt road. There's no street lights. So you come here at night and it would be pitch dark. The only light would be your car headlights. And you'd have to be a local to even know this place existed. I'm Dan box and from news.com au this is witness William Tyrel. Episode 14 Margaret.

[Dan Box]

Thank you, gentlemen.

[Iris Northam]

All right, guys, stop recording.

[Nina]

To get a sense of why Margaret's case is still unsolved almost 30 years later, Nina and I sit down again with Gary Jubilin, the former detective who once led the investigation into William Tyrell's disappearance. All right, hey listen, what we're going to do is talk you through these two unrelated cases. So we talked you through Helen Harrison before and we're just trying to get your sense on anything that comes to mind, particularly about the investigation.

[Dan Box]

Okay, so It's December of 1996. It's the 19th of December. It's a Thursday before Christmas. Margaret Cox was a 38 year old single mum. She had three children. And on that Thursday, Margaret had spent the day with family and friends that been consuming some alcohol, some marijuana. Then the group went out in the evening and they decided to walk from Kandletown to Tari in order to go to a nightclub.

[Nina]

It's about five kilometres straight down the road. Tari itself is the big city on this stretch of the mid north coast, but it's not that big. With just over 20,000 people living there, it shouldn't be that easy for someone to get lost.

[Dan Box]

Around midnight they stopped at a service station which was where the big oyster was at the time.

[Nina]

Yep, the big Oyster is just that, a big sculpture of an oyster. It's meant, I think, to celebrate the local oyster farming industry. And it's kind of, well, it's enormous and kind of goofy and kind of impressive and also kind of ugly.

[Dan Box]

Big oysters still there. Service station has moved and somehow during this point, Margaret gets separated from the group and no one's really sure what happened at that point. The theory is that she either gets into someone's car for a lift or is taken in someone's car.

[Nina]

Essentially she's not seen after this point.

[Iris Northam]

At the service station and that's 12 midnight. Service station?

[Dan Box]

Yeah.

[Iris Northam]

Okay. How many people was she with?

[Nina]

We don't know the number. Two people who worked at the service station told police they saw Margaret with either another man, two men who bought a cigarette lighter and then left. But someone else told the police that he saw Margaret at the service station surrounded by a group of men and screaming. So it's all confusing.

[Dan Box]

I mean, I'll say up front that we did apply for the coronial inquest files for this case, and even though I applied in October, I haven't received them. Dan, you've also applied?

[Nina]

Yep. I got sent the findings, which is a single page.

[Iris Northam]

Yeah, not much help.

[Nina]

The inquest into Margaret's death was held in 2010, 14 years after she was murdered. And the coroner's findings say the cause of her death was blunt force injuries to her head inflicted on her by person or persons unknown. And the evidence available does not enable me to make a finding as to the place of death.

[Dan Box]

So that was a Thursday night. The following Saturday morning, Margaret's body was found floating in the Manning River.

[Nina]

So if you don't know Tari, Tari's on the Manning river and then that flows down to the coast and it kind of. It splits in two and goes around this big island and then hits the coast.

[Iris Northam]

Yep.

[Dan Box]

And some of her clothing was found in a picnic area called Mud Bishop's Reserve, where the police and later the coroner theorized that she was sexually assaulted multiple times. Police pretty quickly formed the opinion that they thought the killer was local, mainly because it's not an area that you'd likely find and access late at night if you weren't already aware of that area. Dan and I actually went to this area. Yeah, I would agree. It's pretty hard.

[Nina]

There's no way you'd know about it unless you knew the area.

[Iris Northam]

And that assumption is a reasonable assumption if we're looking at an area that if you're from out of town, you don't even know about it. So I think that's a reasonable assumption.

[Nina]

And the other point is it's not in Tari. So she's last seen in Tari and then Mud Bishop's Reserve, where her clothes are found and the coroner and the police think that she was assaulted. That's a decent drive, maybe 10, 15 minutes. But it's out at Tari, down following the river. You hit another little town called Old Bar. And then from there it's not easy to find your way up to this reserve.

[Iris Northam]

Okay.

[Nina]

People fish there. People might go there for, I don't know, teenagers might drink there. It's not an obvious place to go at all. So the police, first they looked at the ex boyfriend. He was a truck driver and he'd actually driven from Grafton, I think, to Taree and he'd Signed in at a nearby sailing club on the Thursday night that Margaret went missing. So he's an obvious person to talk to. They spoke to him. He said the relationship ended weeks before and he had an alibi.

[Iris Northam]

Yep.

[Nina]

So they kind of scratched him. Police interviewed everyone they could find who'd been on the highway that day. So thousands of inquiries. They spoke to fishermen who'd been near where the clothing was recovered, and they treated some of those as potential suspects. At first, police learned that upstream at a bridge, some people had heard screaming on the night that Margaret went missing. But the investigation started to feel like it was getting bogged down. Three homicide detectives from Newcastle came up, spent several months in Taree. Another couple of detectives came up and took the lead from the local cops. So at this point, does that sound like a comprehensive police response?

[Iris Northam]

Well, they're treating it seriously if they know to fight homicide. So you'd send a team of three. That seems normal with the. With the family who was with her. Was anyone from the family with her at the time of her disappearance?

[Nina]

Yeah. So that day and that night, she was with family and friends?

[Iris Northam]

Yeah. Okay. My instinct from a homicide detective, the answer lies in at the service station, which pretty much stating the obvious, saying it was the last place she was seen alive. But. Yeah, how has she wandered off from a group with no one in the group knowing?

[Nina]

The answer to how Margaret got separated from the group might be in old newspaper reports which Nina found in the state library. These say that Margaret was one of four people drinking together that night. They say the group drank two bottles of Jim Beam and a four liter cask of wine. One of the group later described Margaret saying she could stand up, but if you asked her to walk in a straight line, it would have never happened. So pretty drunk, about 11 or 11:30 that night, the group somehow drove from Tari to nearby Kundal Town to keep drinking. Only they ran out of drink in Cundle Town. So three of them, including Margaret, walked back. Then that group split. Margaret wanted to get a cigarette lighter, so she went to the service station, and the other two walked onto a caravan park to call on a friend.

[Iris Northam]

My focus, if I was looking at an investigation, being called out to that would be focusing very much on everyone's movements. Was anyone showing a particular interest in her that night? A group going for a drink, kicking on at the nightclub? Invariably, people are starting to pair up or someone that's shown an interest in.

[Nina]

Her that night, thinking that he might be their man.

[Dan Box]

Up until at least we get to like the 10 year anniversary of the crime, the police are still saying in the media, you know, this can be solved. They don't seem like they've given up.

[Nina]

They also don't seem to have had much success. For different reasons, different police officers were put in charge of the case over the years and none of them was able to be certain where exactly Margaret died. There was no blood or sign of a struggle, meaning they didn't have a lot of evidence.

[Dan Box]

There's at least three or four persons of interest that were named at the inquest. So early on, the police released a photo fit of a man that they believed had been camping in the Mud Bishops Reserve area. And they released an image of him and a description of his car, which was a white four wheel drive Land Rover. And as a result of that, a number of people identified the same man as being the man from that photo.

[Nina]

That man was not Frank Abbott.

[Iris Northam]

Mud Bishop Reserve was where her clothing was found. Yeah, see, I see the primary crime scene I would suggest is the service station. I don't get overly excited about the secondary crime scene, someone in the area. And again, this is just what's going through my mind in that. Why did she get to that location? She didn't have a car. How did she get to the picnic area where her clothing was found?

[Dan Box]

Because she's got to get there.

[Nina]

Yeah. So it's who meets at the service station and takes her there.

[Iris Northam]

That's where I'd be looking. I wouldn't be overly concerned who was around where her clothes were dumped.

[Dan Box]

But the coroner ultimately ruled that there was not enough evidence to point to a likely killer or to charge anyone. They also mentioned DNA. So the coroner mentioned that there was a DNA of four people on Margaret's underwear. Three of those people had been identified and one hasn't.

[Iris Northam]

Right. Okay. Certainly if her clothes have been dumped, her body has been dumped in a river and it looks like she's been sexually assaulted, the DNA on the underwear would be of vital interest.

[Dan Box]

Yeah, but presumably if they've identified three of those people, they aren't suspects. They must have been ruled out.

[Nina]

Again, the media reports are confusing, but it looks like three of those DNA profiles were identified and two of them ruled out as suspects at the inquest, leaving one other identified person and a fourth DNA profile that's never been identified. But one thing does stand out from the media reports and that is that Margaret had a bandage on her left arm. One newspaper report says she suffered a very extensive laceration on her left arm shortly before her death. Another report is different. That one says that she'd had what it calls certain surgery earlier that December.

[Iris Northam]

So I keep coming back to, you know, if you're looking at the person of interest, you're looking at someone that was in the group or who met.

[Nina]

The group at that service station, potentially.

[Iris Northam]

Met the group at the service station. But again, then you've got that random meeting of a predator and the victim at a location where you wouldn't expect to find the victim.

[Nina]

Yeah. Okay. So that's all that was known at the time. And since then, essentially nothing until the William Tyll inquest. This is Iris Northam. She's a kind face and slightly plump and smiling older woman. She looks like a grandma out of Central Casting. Hello. How are you doing?

[Dooley]

My husband, Dooley.

[Nina]

Good to meet you, Dooley. My name's Dan and this is Nina.

[Dan Box]

Hi, Dooley.

[Nina]

Pleased to meet. Iris and her husband Dooley live in a little single story brick house surrounded by bright flowers in Oldbar, the tiny town just down the dirt road from where Margaret's clothing was discovered. Nina and I have come to visit them because of a witness statement which we found among dozens of other exhibits released to us by the coroner from the inquest into William Tyrone's disappearance. That witness statement is from Iris, and it sets out the evidence that she'd be prepared to give as a witness in court. That statement is also the first time the story of Margaret Cox's disappearance and her murder intersects with our story about Frank Abbott. And its full contents have never been made public before.

[Dooley]

Yeah. So you're doing a follow up on this podcast.

[Nina]

In her witness statement to the William Tyrol inquest, Iris explains how she first met Frank Abbott.

[Dooley]

His father was a customer of ours. We had the scrap metal yard in Tari, right? Yeah. And his father used to bring a bit of scrap metal in and sell it. And one day he just come in, he said, oh, my son Frank's looking for a job. He can do anything. And he's been in jail. He'd only just got out of something.

[Nina]

That noise you can hear in the background is me talking to Iris husband, Dooley. Dooley's getting on these days. He stooped over, he struggles to walk, and it's hard to break away from the conversation.

[Dooley]

And my husband said, yeah, bring him in if you can. Do the work, Whatever I want done. And then when he came in, he, you know, just talked like a normal person. Yeah, he didn't.

[Nina]

Good first impression.

[Dooley]

Yeah. Yeah. And then when he started work, you know, you just ask him to do something, you can't do it. No back chat or anything.

[Iris Northam]

Hard worker.

[Dooley]

Yeah, he didn't talk that much, but if you talk to him, he'd sort of answer and whatever, but. Well, he only worked for us for about 12 months, I suppose. Might have been that long.

[Nina]

The reason Frank stopped working for them was that he got arrested in 1991 over the murder of Helen Harrison, which we talked about in the last episode.

[Dooley]

One day, one of the policemen come to our place and he said, oh, Frank Abbott's not gonna be working for you anymore. He said, we just arrested him for murder. And I said, what?

[Nina]

Frank was found not guilty.

[Dooley]

He just said that everything was cleared, he was not guilty.

[Nina]

By now, Dooley and I are both sitting at the kitchen table listening to Iris. I ask her, did it ever worry you that Frank was put on trial for murder?

[Dooley]

Sort of. Sort of did, but it, you know, you sort of didn't. Didn't sort of press on it too much.

[Nina]

Instead, they stayed friendly. Iris says Frank and Dooley used to gamble together on the horses.

[Dooley]

They were punters because they'd ring up the so and so's racing today. And anyway, Frank moved to Johns river and he'd ring up and said, what do you fancy for race number six in Sydney or something? And they'd be talking away there for, you know, half an hour, think, oh, yeah, this one's a good one, that one. And, you know, they'd just chatter on.

[Nina]

Just mates, just mates for years. And Iris doesn't seem to bear Frank any malice today. Did you ever hear any other stories about him? People saying things about him since?

[Dooley]

Yeah, since quite a lot.

[Nina]

What have you heard? Then we start talking about Margaret and what Iris says in her statement to the William Tyrell inquest.

[Dooley]

When Margaret Cox went missing. She went missing on a Thursday night. On the Saturday morning they found a body in the river. And on the Sunday we went to an auction. Was a fellow had yet to have an auction every month. And the Dooley said, oh, there's Frank. We've got a few minutes before, you know, we've got to be there. So went over and were talking with Frank. And anyway, Dooley said to him, frank, what did you do to your arm? Because he had all these gouge marks on his arm. And Frank just said, oh, oysters. That was it.

[Nina]

Oysters from the local oyster beds around Taree, the ones that inspired the big oyster in the wild. Oysters have really sharp shells. They scratch. In her statement, Iris says Frank had about seven or eight gouge marks between his left wrist and his elbow.

[Dooley]

No, oysters don't do that. I fell on oysters once and they don't do that, they just slash.

[Nina]

So what was the difference with these?

[Dooley]

They were gouge marks. Like the someone had gouged skin out. Like with the actual flesh out.

[Nina]

Like with their fingernails?

[Dooley]

Yeah, yeah.

[Nina]

So these weren't locked?

[Dooley]

No, no, no, no.

[Nina]

Did you think anything of that at the time?

[Dooley]

Well, I did and I didn't.

[Nina]

Speaking to Gary Jubilin, Nina reads out this section from Iris statement to the inquest.

[Dan Box]

The gouge marks were long and straight.

[Iris Northam]

Yep.

[Dan Box]

And they looked to be a couple of days old as they had that kind of festy look that wounds get before they start to heal.

[Iris Northam]

Yep.

[Dan Box]

I remember thinking that the marks on his arm really didn't match what he was telling us.

[Nina]

As a former homicide detective, I asked Gary, do you read anything into that?

[Iris Northam]

It is concerning. There's been a lot of murders solved by someone carrying injuries that obviously what appear to be wounds with someone struggling if they're being attacked. Oyster marks as distinct from straight scratches. Yeah. I offer concern there. I worry with contamination of Frank Abbott because his reputation is so well known that people. Yeah. What we know about Frank Abbott is he's a grub. You're testing memories from what, 96 if it was at the inquest, we're looking at 30 years. 30 years down the track. I don't know. I'm trying to think 30 years back, can I recall a specific injury or how it looks? Yeah. Memory can do some funny things, so I wouldn't get overly excited, but I'd be where Frank is, certainly. Opportunity, motive, capability, as I always talk about, he would have the motivation because he seems to be, in my understanding, a sexual predator. Capability. Opportunity, that's that missing ingredient.

[Nina]

Meaning? Can you prove Frank had the opportunity to do anything to Margaret? So far, the answer's no. We can't even say Frank ever met her. Although there is a line in Iris witness statement about 10 been bowling. She says Frank used to bowl in Tari on a Thursday night. It was a Thursday night that Margaret was last seen in Tari.

[Dan Box]

And so the bowling alley, and I've confirmed it is the same ball. Ellingham hasn't moved, is five minutes away from that service station. We went to the bowling alley and I said, can you tell me who was bowling here 30 years ago?

[Iris Northam]

Yeah.

[Dan Box]

No, they can't. But they gave me the name of someone who did bowl there 30 years ago and I tracked that guy down. Yeah, unfortunately, he's a Tuesday Wednesday bowler, not a Thursday bowler, which at least.

[Nina]

Corroborates that there was bowling on a Thursday.

[Iris Northam]

Okay.

[Dan Box]

Yes.

[Nina]

The other thing we heard is that bowling was big then and people would bowl late into the night, which proves nothing. We don't know if Frank was bowling on that Thursday or what time the bowling finished or if that was the same time Margaret was last seen at the service station.

[Dan Box]

I tried to be a detective, Gary.

[Iris Northam]

I tried to be a detective, too. That didn't work out.

[Nina]

But there is one other thing. In Iris statement to the William Tyrol inquest, she says Frank had another mate.

[Dooley]

Yes, Noel. Noel Sonter.

[Dan Box]

Could you tell us a bit more about what Noel told you about Frank?

[Nina]

In her witness statement, Iris says she and her husband told Noel about seeing Frank with oyster scratch after Margaret was murdered.

[Dooley]

Dooley sort of mentioned it to him and Noel said. He said, I'm sure that's the woman that I saw at Frank's with Frank. He said she had a bandage or something on her arm. And I said, I don't know whether she had any bandages or anything, but.

[Nina]

So when Noel told you this, that he'd seen Margaret at Frank's place with the bandage on her arm, did he say when that was?

[Dooley]

Only a few days before.

[Nina]

A few days before, yeah.

[Dooley]

And might have been a week, but it was only a few days. Shortly before, yeah. Yeah.

[Nina]

So Frank's mate Noel says he saw Margaret at Frank's house sometime before she was murdered. And Noel recognized her from the bandage, which we know she did have, on her left arm. As far as we can tell. This claim that Noel saw Margaret at Frank's house has never been made public, not at the inquest into Margaret's death in 2010, nor at the inquest into William's disappearance that ended last year, shortly.

[Dooley]

After Noel had told us. It was only probably four or five days.

[Nina]

Iris says her husband, Dooley, and Noel did try to tell police about seeing Margaret at Frank's place.

[Dooley]

Niall had been doing something for us. I'm not sure what it was now, but anyway, Dooley was taking him home because he lived at Johns river near. Pretty near Obadiah. And there was a police blockade.

[Nina]

There'd been some kind of traffic incident.

[Dooley]

And they said, oh, we're just stopping people. And Dooley and Niall tried to tell him about Margaret being there at his.

[Nina]

Place, but the cop didn't seem interested.

[Dooley]

The fellow said, oh, no, we've got some other. There. That's it.

[Nina]

As in, the cops already had a suspect.

[Dooley]

They had three or four different people. And I've sort of, you know, sort of gone through what could have been.

[Nina]

What might have happened, meaning what might have happened if the cops that day had listened when they tried to tell him about Margaret. So what did happen? To answer that, Nina tracks down the detective who first led the investigation into Margaret's death. His name is Dave Woolnow. And we drive out to meet him and sit with Dave and his wife at the table in their cozy kitchen, reading out Iris Northam's witness statement, while Dave sits there without moving, his eyes closed, chin on his hands, because he's never heard any of this before now. And Dave, I think, is a good man who did his best with the investigation and who deeply regrets not being able to give Margaret's family an answer as to who killed her. We keep talking. After more than two hours together, Nina and I finally stand, shake hands and leave. So that I wasn't expecting.

[Dan Box]

Yeah.

[Nina]

So. So we've just been talking to a cop, Dave Woolnow, and he led the investigation into Margaret Cox's murder back in 1996 in Tari. And at the moment, he doesn't want to be recorded, but I think we can say what we said to each other. And while the first thing I didn't expect is that as well as Dave, we met his wife, June. And while Dave was the cop who led the investigation into Margaret's murder, June was the nurse who treated Margaret in the week before she went missing.

[Dan Box]

Yes. Which was not information that I had from media reports.

[Nina]

I didn't know either. And this is the bit that got me was we talked about the investigation and we talked about different things and we were there for a good long time, a couple of hours. But then June said that Margaret was in the hospital right up until just before she went missing. In fact, June said she was working the night shift and she worked the Thursday night. Margaret went missing on the Thursday night and June said she came into the hospital and Margaret was gone. But she also said something that got your attention, didn't it?

[Dan Box]

Yeah. So she said that Margaret was being treated for an infection.

[Nina]

Yeah.

[Dan Box]

And that she had left hospital, she had just had. She had a PICC line in treating this infection.

[Nina]

Yeah. So an intravenous line going into her arm.

[Dan Box]

Yeah. And that caught my attention because of Iris Notham's statement. And in that statement, she said that Noel Sonter, who was a friend of hers and a friend of Frank's, said that he had seen Margaret Cox at Frank's house shortly before the murder and that she had a bandage on her arm.

[Nina]

And this is the thing that when I read that in Iris Northam's statement, I thought it kind of doesn't mean anything. You've got a secondhand account that somebody saw Margaret at Frank's house? Kind of. So what? Until June told us that Margaret was in hospital until the day she went missing and she was discharged with a bandage on her arm.

[Dan Box]

Yeah.

[Nina]

And Iris then says a couple of days after Margaret goes missing, she sees Frank with those scratch marks down his arm. Suddenly all of that seems much, much more important than it did before.

[Dan Box]

And it gives a frame of reference as well, because her statement says shortly before the murder, which could mean days, weeks, hours. But the fact that she had the bandage on her arm and we've got the nurse that discharged her saying she was discharged that day with the bandage on her arm.

[Nina]

So that puts her at Frank's house the day she went missing. Have the police followed this up when they got Iris's statement? Well, we know they haven't spoken to June, who was the treating nurse, but maybe they wouldn't. And we know they haven't spoken to the cop. We just met Dave, who led the investigation, but maybe they would. Wouldn't. But have the police followed up with anyone about that statement, that Frank might actually have been with Margaret on the day she went missing, before she disappeared? Everyone around the table in that kitchen today was a little bit shocked by that.

[Iris Northam]

You've got me more interested in the fact if Frank Abbott knew her, that sort of changes the dynamics a bit.

[Nina]

We go back and ask Gary Jubalin, as a former cop, if this evidence about Margaret being at Frank's house changes anything.

[Iris Northam]

I'd be looking, if I was looking at this investigation fresh, like in the actual time period you got Frank, if he knows the victim. To me, it feels like a local type crime. If I was looking at it, I'd be looking for someone in the area.

[Nina]

It might also mean that Frank knew she was going out that night. If she was the woman with a bandage on her arm seen at Frank's.

[Iris Northam]

House, and if she was seen at Frank's house, if we're linking the bandage on the arm to being discharged from hospital. So it's contemporary, it's not. Oh, I saw her in the house 10 years before. So was Frank Abbott's reputation out and about at that stage?

[Dan Box]

No. So it's interesting we asked about this because Frank was arrested in 1991 in Tari, and then he goes through both of his trials where he's found not guilty over the murder of Helen Harrison. That all wraps up in 94, 95. So I did ask the investigator who is leading the investigation to Margaret's death, were you aware of Frank in the community and that he'd been, you know, charged with a crime like that and would that make you more likely to look at him? And he kind of said, no, that.

[Nina]

They weren't really aware, so they didn't know that Frank was living in the area and had just been acquitted of abducting, sexually assaulting and murdering a teenage girl.

[Iris Northam]

It shouldn't happen. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, that police would miss that. I'm thinking back to 96. I was in homicide. I know how to operate. A person's name comes up in the investigation and you'd be looking at their past history. And it certainly flagged that if he was charged and acquitted of a murder.

[Dan Box]

Well, Frank's name didn't come up in the investigation.

[Iris Northam]

So this information about knowing the victim, Margaret, has come up. Basically.

[Nina]

It's come up as a result of the William Tyrrell inquest, right?

[Iris Northam]

It has, but, yeah, there's a lot of. Lot of missing pieces.

[Nina]

That's one question I wanted to ask you, is if you were in unsolved handling this and so it come to the police as a result of Iris giving this statement in the William Tyrrell inquest, would you be getting in touch with Margaret Cox's family to say, we've got some information?

[Iris Northam]

If I was in unsolved homicides, which I have been in unsolved homicides, I'd want to have a look at what's gone on, speak to the family, maybe get active to the brief and answer all the questions that I'm asking.

[Dan Box]

Would you go back to Iris after.

[Iris Northam]

That statement was made, Iris being the.

[Dan Box]

Woman who made this statement for the inquest?

[Iris Northam]

Oh, yeah, yeah. That would be an obvious, obvious one.

[Nina]

And would you go back to Noel Sonter, the guy who apparently said he saw Margaret at Frank's house?

[Iris Northam]

I'd be going back to them armed with all the information that you've provided now to sit down and potentially get additional information based on the information that you're forthcoming?

[Nina]

So what if I told you that Iris gave that statement in 2019?

[Iris Northam]

Yeah.

[Nina]

So we're five years on and they've not heard anything from the police.

[Iris Northam]

I'll be disappointed, but I'm used to being disappointed.

[Nina]

Gary isn't the only one who's disappointed that the police haven't followed up with Iris about Margaret Cox's murder?

[Dooley]

Well, that's it, yes. And this is Iris when the coroner come here and he was, you know, asking questions and things. And I mentioned that Iris says someone.

[Nina]

From the coronial team investigating William Tyrrell's disappearance came to her house to take her and sat where Nina and I are now sitting.

[Dooley]

One of the girls that was with him said, oh, we'll mention it to the cold case detectives.

[Nina]

The cold case detectives is the unsolved homicide team. David Laidlaw, who's running the police investigation into William's disappearance, is one of that team's commanders.

[Dooley]

But whether she did or not, I don't know.

[Nina]

So you've never heard back?

[Dooley]

No.

[Nina]

So this was.

[Dooley]

That was 2019.

[Nina]

McCall and his lawyers came here and you obviously told them.

[Dooley]

Yeah, yeah, the scratch marks.

[Nina]

They said they'd tell the unsolved.

[Dooley]

The cold case, yeah.

[Nina]

And you've never heard anything?

[Dooley]

Never heard, no. So I don't know whether they said anything or just completely forgot about it or.

[Nina]

And did you hear back from the police since the inquest?

[Dooley]

No.

[Nina]

Iris did give evidence in person at William's inquest, but that inquest wasn't looking at Margaret's murder and Iris was only asked about part of what's in her statement. The rest hasn't been made public before. Now, talking to us, Iris says it was one of who she calls the girls who interviewed her at home to get her statement, who said they'd pass the information on to the Cold case unit. We don't know who that person was, though. Iris's statement is signed by a female police detective who was on the strike force investigating William's disappearance. So we know at least that she was in the room and we know no one has gone back since to talk to Iris. Well.

[Dooley]

I could probably say something, but. But, you know, I just think I might flame an idiot.

[Nina]

But you think they should talk to you?

[Dooley]

Well, at times I think, oh, I've got to, you know, I've got to say something, even if it's just to ring the cold case mob up on Friday with a. The others said anything about it?

[Dan Box]

They got your information.

[Dooley]

Yeah.

[Dan Box]

I do want to say I think you're holding. You're feeling a lot of responsibility.

[Dooley]

Oh, yes, yes.

[Dan Box]

You have told someone and you have done your part. You should know that.

[Dooley]

Well, yes, but I didn't follow it up. I haven't followed it up, not really. But I would like to know whether she did see someone down there or mention it to someone.

[Nina]

That's a Good question. We asked New South Wales Police if this evidence about Frank and Margaret was passed on to the unsolved homicide team in 2019 and if they had done anything to investigate it. The police declined to answer.

[Dooley]

I'm getting older. Noel's getting older. Whether he's even still around to give any sort of evidence.

[Nina]

Iris is right to say she's getting older. Her husband, Dooley, who knew Frank well, is no longer really up to being interviewed or giving evidence. And what about Frank's other mate, Noel Sonter, the man who apparently saw Margaret at Frank's house with a bandage on her left arm shortly before she was murdered?

[Iris Northam]

Hello.

[Nina]

Hi. Is that Ute?

[Gary Jubilin]

Yes, it is.

[Nina]

Eventually, we track Noel down. This is his wife. I tell her what we're doing. I'm a reporter and for the past couple of years I've been working on a podcast series about the investigation into the disappearance of that little lad, William Tyrrell, who went missing 10 years ago now.

[Gary Jubilin]

Yep, yep.

[Nina]

Ute explains. Noel is also getting older and also no longer really up for being interviewed, but he is with her in the room as she and I are talking. Reason to speak to yourself is that in one of the exhibits that came out of the inquest, there was a witness statement given by a woman called Iris Northam, who's.

[Gary Jubilin]

Yes, yes, I know Iris and I know. I. Yep.

[Nina]

In her statement, Iris is talking about this woman who went missing in Tari and was subsequently found dead. Woman called Margaret Cox.

[Gary Jubilin]

Yep. Yep.

[Nina]

She was the mum of three who was found.

[Gary Jubilin]

Yes, Yes, I. My personal opinion is I don't think they've investigated Frank Abbott enough.

[Nina]

Yeah.

[Gary Jubilin]

But. Yeah, that's just my opinion.

[Nina]

Iris gave this statement to the inquest which mentions Noel seeing Margaret and Frank together. She gave this statement four or five years ago, roughly. Have you heard from the police in that time?

[Gary Jubilin]

Trying to think. We were already in this house and we've been in this house now for. When did we move in? Six. Just over six years. It must have been about five years ago, I'd say. When? When we got the message from the police. Never heard from them again. It was a woman and she said she'd call back and that's the last I heard.

[Nina]

So you've never heard from the police about Margaret Cox?

[Gary Jubilin]

No.

[Nina]

Has he ever mentioned Margaret to you or.

[Gary Jubilin]

I remember Noel saying that he saw a woman in Frank's house. She had her arm in a sling or something. Noel? You said Noel doesn't talk so well anymore. Wrapped up in a bandage in Frank's House.

[Nina]

And did he say who he thought that woman was?

[Gary Jubilin]

No. You don't remember who that was, do you? No.

[Nina]

No. Okay, so Noel today, five years on from when Iris gave her statement about Margaret, Noel doesn't remember or can't say if he remembers who the woman was that he saw in Frank's house. Just that she was wearing a bandage. And as it stands, that's not evidence of anything. And maybe Noel was mistaken about who was with Frank. Too many years have passed since Margaret died and since Iris gave her evidence to the inquest. But you do think the police could have been asking these questions back in 2019 when Iris first spoke up, and they haven't.

[Gary Jubilin]

We've all said all along that the police never investigated Frank enough.

[Nina]

What makes you say that?

[Gary Jubilin]

He was just. There was just something about Frank. I. I didn't like him and I. I never liked him, but it was, you know, Noel's friend and whatnot. He was just creepy. That's the best way I can describe it, really.

[Nina]

Did he do anything particular that made you think he was creepy?

[Gary Jubilin]

Just. He'd brush up against you, Just. Yeah.

[Nina]

Brush up against you?

[Gary Jubilin]

Yeah. Yeah, he was just. Oh. I tried to stay away from him and because we lived so close, he used to call in quite regularly. So it was a bit just. I think anybody who you talk to about Frank would probably tell you the same thing, you know, he had a beautiful daughter. Yeah, I remember the daughter's name. She was gorgeous. She was really lovely, you know.

[Nina]

Do you have any idea what happened to her?

[Gary Jubilin]

I have no idea.

[Nina]

We haven't been able to contact Frank's daughter either. And if you're out there and you want to talk, there's an email address in the show notes we've written to Frank Abbott in prison where he's serving time for child sex offences, about Margaret Cox and whether he ever met her. He hasn't responded to our questions. So this is what we do know. We know the police and the inquest team investigating William's disappearance were told back in 2019 about one of their persons of interest and his alleged links to a young woman who was murdered. We know the woman who gave that evidence was told it would be passed on to the Union Unsolved Homicide Team, but no one from the police has contacted her since. Nor have the police contacted the other alleged witness she mentioned, Noel Saunter. And as we learn more about Margaret's death, that begins to seem completely inexplicable because we learn there was once a dedicated police task force called Task Force Metz, who reportedly looked for any links between Margaret's killing and three other unsolved murders. So Nina and I start looking at those three killings and we find there are others, other unsolved murders here on the New South Wales north coast. And the Iris Northam statement to the inquest into William's disappearance links Frank to yet another of those cold cases. But that has never been made public until now. That's next time on Witness. William Tyrrell. A lot of different people have been involved in making this series. Among them, the executive producer is Nina Young. The sound design was by Tiffany Dimmack. The producers have been Emily Pidgeon, Nicholas Adams Jasbar, Phoebe Zukowski Wallace and Tabby Wilson. Research by Aidan Patrick. Original music by Rory o' Connor. Our lawyer is Stephen Coombs. The editor at news.com au is Kerry Warren. I'm Dan Box.