Pressure | 8

Summary

Witness: William Tyrrell – Episode 8: Pressure

Host: Dan Box
Guest: Detective Gary Jubelin
Release Date: November 24, 2024

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Introduction: The Vanishing of William Tyrrell

On the serene Mid North Coast of New South Wales lies the township of Kendall, forever marked by the disappearance of three-year-old William Tyrrell. Last seen on September 12, 2014, wearing his beloved Spider-Man suit, William's absence has left an indelible scar on his family and the community. Ten years later, the mystery remains unsolved, with Detective Gary Jubelin at the forefront of the relentless investigation.

Revisiting Kendall: A Decade of Unanswered Questions

Dan Box:
"We're heading into the township, I suppose you call it, of Kendall, where William Tyrrell disappeared from this time." [00:05]

Detective Gary Jubelin, a seasoned homicide investigator, revisits Kendall with host Dan Box. Reflecting on his past tenure, Gary shares, "It brings back every memory in the book." [00:51] The emotional weight of William's case is palpable, intertwining sadness with a burning frustration over the case's handling.

Gary Jubelin: The Relentless Detective

Gary's dedication to the case is unmatched. "It was a tough investigation, but it was an investigation that, yeah, I was up for the challenge," he asserts [01:21]. His colleagues describe him as tenacious and unwavering, often clashing with superiors to secure the necessary resources. Dan Box highlights Gary's portrayal in the TV drama Underbelly, noting his unique traits: "He was an Aries, a practicing Buddhist, and drank green tea instead of coffee." [02:07]. Beyond public perception, Gary is deeply committed to justice, often pushing boundaries to uncover the truth.

Building Trust: The Foster Parents' Campaign

Gary's initial interactions with William's foster parents were strained, with suspicions looming large. "When we were meeting, I could feel that he was just sizing me up," recalls William's foster mother [08:23]. However, as Gary delved deeper, he dismissed them as suspects, fostering a collaborative relationship. Together, they launched the Where's William Campaign, transforming the investigation from a local police matter into a nationwide movement.

William's Foster Mother:
"We trusted police, we trusted him." [09:25]

The campaign's impact was monumental, generating thousands of media reports, organizing community events, and encouraging thousands of tips to Crime Stoppers. Events like public performances of "Bring Him Home" and Walk for William rallies spread awareness widely, keeping William's memory alive across Australia and even internationally.

Paul Savage: A Person of Interest Under Scrutiny

Amid the vast pool of leads, Paul Savage emerged as a key person of interest. Opposite William's last known location, Paul's eccentric behavior and troubling past made him a focal point. Detective Sergeant Laura Beecroft initially spearheaded the investigation into Paul, uncovering his history of harassment towards a local postwoman, leading to an Apprehended Violence Order (AVO) against him.

Interviews and Pressure Tactics

Gary Jubelin employed intense pressure tactics to extract information from Paul. In one pivotal interview [50:17], Gary confronts Paul:

"If you're sitting there and you honestly believe you're telling me the truth about the Spider man suit, I know you're lying." [50:28]

Despite Gary's relentless interrogation, Paul's responses remained evasive and defensive. The police orchestrated elaborate surveillance operations, including leaving Spider-Man suits along Paul's morning walk to gauge his reactions. However, photographic evidence from these operations remained inconclusive, leaving room for doubt.

Internal Struggles Within the Strike Force

Gary's unwavering focus on Paul began to strain relations within the strike force. Detectives like Craig Lambert and Louise Currie questioned the efficacy of targeting Paul without substantial evidence. This internal discord culminated in confrontations and departures, weakening the team's cohesion. Gary's approach, though aggressive, started to falter under the weight of mounting pressures and personal challenges, including his ongoing divorce.

The Decline of the Investigation

By early 2019, the investigation faced significant setbacks. With over 14,000 reports to sift through and dwindling staff due to administrative cuts, Gary's capabilities to manage the case effectively were severely hampered. His superiors opted to remove him from active homicide cases, sidelining him from the William Tyrrell investigation just as an inquest was being prepared [60:50].

Paul Savage's Perspective: Innocent or Conspirator?

Years after the initial investigations, Paul Savage, now 80, maintains his innocence. In a candid encounter with Dan Box [66:38], Paul reveals:

"I did see the suit. I thought it was probably his."

However, discrepancies in his statements and the lack of definitive evidence leave the truth shrouded in ambiguity. Paul's interactions with the detectives, recorded through covert surveillance, show a man tormented by grief and resistance against what he perceives as a setup.

Conclusion: An Ongoing Quest for Truth

The disappearance of William Tyrrell remains one of Australia's most haunting unsolved cases. Detective Gary Jubelin's intense methods, coupled with the unwavering support of William's foster parents, highlight the complexities and challenges of such investigations. As the community continues to seek answers, the legacy of William's story underscores the profound impact of unresolved tragedies on individuals and society alike.

Next week on Witness: The investigation's evolution and new developments are explored, delving deeper into the lingering questions surrounding William Tyrrell's disappearance.

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Notable Quotes:

• Gary Jubelin:
  "The nature of homicide investigation... you've got to hunt that person, find that person and gather the evidence." [19:53]

• William's Foster Father:
  "Explain to me how you stalking a woman is a setup." [42:38]

• Paul Savage:
  "I'm not lying. I never seen it the day before." [50:44]

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References:

• Where's William Campaign: A nationwide awareness and search effort initiated by William's foster parents and Detective Gary Jubelin.

• Covert Surveillance: Police tactics employed to monitor and pressure Paul Savage, including placing Spider-Man suits as bait.

• Internal Investigations: Challenges within the Kendall strike force, leading to staff departures and diminished effectiveness.

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For more in-depth coverage and exclusive content, visit news.com.au and follow Witness on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok.

Transcript

[Dan Box]

Judy, just tell me where we're going.

[Gary Jubelin]

We're heading into the township, I suppose you call it, of Kendall, where William.

[Dan Box]

Tyrrell disappeared from this time. Driving back to Kendall, I'm traveling with Gary Jublin, the detective who led the investigation. How long has it been since you were here?

[Gary Jubelin]

Oh, it would be a matter of three years, four years, I'd say, since I've been up.

[Dan Box]

Like I've said before, Gary and I go back a long way and my first impression of him was he's interesting.

[Gary Jubelin]

It hasn't changed at all and it brings back every memory in the book.

[Dan Box]

What memories?

[Gary Jubelin]

Oh, I think an overriding one of sadness, of what's happened in this town and what's happened to William.

[Dan Box]

Gary doesn't hide his feelings. He's capable of great compassion, but also anger.

[Gary Jubelin]

With that sadness, there's a frustration. Probably a better term is anger, but I'll try to be nice and say frustration in the way that the matter's been handled.

[Dan Box]

He's driven.

[Gary Jubelin]

It was a tough investigation, but it was an investigation that, yeah, I was up for the challenge. I'd been investigating homicide for a long time and I was confident that, yeah, I would get a result.

[Dan Box]

There are other words people use to describe him because Gary has made enemies, partly because he had a way of getting in the newspapers and on television. You seen this? Yeah.

[Nina Y.]

Well, he was kidnapped, dismembered and then.

[Dan Box]

Dumped, putting a strike force on him. I'm going to put my hand up, Ryder, you go for gold. Gary, before he and I met, Gary had been the subject of a prime time TV drama about his life and another of his investigations. That show was called Underbelly and this is how they described him. Gary Kevin Jubilin was an Aries, a practicing Buddhist and drank green tea instead of coffee. His workmates called him crazy. Fuck the green tea and the nickname. That's all true. I'd add the shaved head, the nose he's broken three times boxing. The fact Gary meditates to find some inner balance and can also be so demanding. He's told more than one of his bosses to fuck off if they can't get him more time, resources or staff for his investigations. I heard you requested a solicitor. I know this. Every time you put your head up, I'm gonna kick it. But the thing that really stands out to me about Gary is the way he pursued his cases. It's taken us years and now I've got you to destruction. So if you really want to help yourself, then you make a statement. Putting pressure on a suspect. Tell me what happened. Doing everything he could think of to crack them, why you did it, at the risk even of ruining their life or his own.

[Gary Jubelin]

Yeah, we're heading down towards where William was last seen alive in Benaroon Drive. And it's something that is played very heavily in my life, this particular road. And, yeah, we stop and look at the house. How does a child disappear from there? And we haven't got answers. And, you know, as New South Wales Police, we should be judged by it. These are the type of cases that you need to solve.

[Dan Box]

I'm Dan Box and from Newsday. This is Witness William Tyrrell, Episode eight, Pressure.

[Craig Lambert]

You know, you could feel the tension. You could feel that the bosses were doing things, that they were all by the book. This might sound a strange thing to say, but you could just see there was attention to detail.

[Dan Box]

This is another of the cops who worked on the investigation into William's disappearance in September 2014.

[Craig Lambert]

Normally, you know, cops, we trivialise things because it's like, oh, we've been to a million missing kids and we found them, but for this to happen, they.

[Dan Box]

Don'T want to be identified. So Nina, the producer on this podcast, is reading their words.

[Craig Lambert]

You got the sense of like, oh, everyone's definitely taking it on as a.

[Dan Box]

Serious detective investigation, but that doesn't mean everything was working smoothly.

[Craig Lambert]

As soon as we got there, we had tasks, so they're just kind of giving us stuff to do, but, you know, they weren't telling us much. I didn't really get a sense of or any briefing of how they were attacking it.

[Dan Box]

This was before Gary Jubalin was put in charge, when the strike force was being led by a detective called Hans Rupp.

[Craig Lambert]

Hans Rupp was pretty old school. I never, never had a conversation with him. Gary was the first person that, when he came aboard, he wanted everyone to tell him what they thought. He didn't care whether I was a constable or I was a detective or if I was the boss. He wanted to know, he wanted to get everyone's ideas.

[Dan Box]

This was around the start of 2015, when Hans Rupp retired and Gary Jublin took over the investigation.

[Craig Lambert]

When he came in and I met him and we chatted that first day, I saw him as a real fucking detective. He was the real deal. Like, I knew about the underbelly and all that bullshit, but, you know, it wasn't until he came on board that I really actually understood, oh, this is what we've got to do. We've got to put this timeline together. We've got to do this, we've got to do that. He wants everyone's input. He wants everyone to talk. He wants you to go and have a beer after work and discuss things and argue over ideas and theories, because that's how shit happens. I really enjoyed working under Gary's direction because he sort of thinks like a businessperson where it's like, time. We've got to get this shit done. We've got a deadline. We've got to figure this out.

[Dan Box]

You know, Gary didn't want things to get slowed down by the petty bureaucracies you often run up against in the police force, like not wanting to pay overtime or which police commander would let others use which resources, even if that meant Gary falling out with other bosses.

[Craig Lambert]

People will ask me about it, and what I say is, he's tenacious and he'll do things that you would expect cops in movies to do, but that's not reality, and he's the guy that would do that. So if one of my family members was murdered, I'd want Gary to investigate. That's how I explain it.

[Dan Box]

Gary also found supporters in William Tyrrell's foster parents who were now approaching the anniversary of his disappearance. The anniversary brings a huge amount of mixed emotions. Again, we don't have an outcome. We don't know whether his whereabouts or anything. This is William's foster father speaking at the time to the journalist Leah Harris. It's quite scary to think that we don't have anything one year wrong. I cross my fingers, I look into the eyes of his sister and his mother and just pray for his return. The first time Gary met the foster parents, he looked at them as potential suspects.

[William's Foster Mother]

When we were meeting, I could feel that he was just sizing me up and, you know, you could feel the suspicion coming all over again.

[Dan Box]

This is William's foster mother in another interview with Leah Harris.

[William's Foster Mother]

At that point, I'd never heard of Gary Jublin.

[William's Foster Father]

I.

[William's Foster Mother]

No connection or reference to the name whatsoever. I googled him and I thought, wow, this is good. This is really good. He'd been on a number of high profile. He'd been on a number of high profile, yeah. But I remember somebody telling me that he was the character on an Underbelly series. And I'm thinking, oh, my God. And thinking, wow, okay. But what it gave us, I think, was this sense of, we've got the right guy.

[Dan Box]

Eventually, Gary discounted the foster parents as likely suspects, just like Hans Rupp had done before him and William's Foster parents, they grew close to Gary.

[William's Foster Mother]

We had the then Minister of Police telling us that he was New South Wales Police's top cop. We had people within the police force telling us we don't have anybody better. We trusted, we trusted police, we trusted him.

[Dan Box]

Between them, Gary Jubalin and William's foster parents turbocharged the investigation into the three year old's disappearance. Instead of just being a police matter, it became a massive publicity campaign. The Where's William campaign launched in 2015. That August, there was this public performance of Bring Him Home from the musical Les Miserable. Our focus today is here and supporting the Where's William campaign. Local politicians spoke up. I can only imagine as a father and as a parent, the grief and the anxiety that the family is going through. There were TV news reports.

[William's Foster Mother]

Let's continue to work together to bring William home.

[Dan Box]

There were billboards, thousands of leaflets were distributed. Where's William Week the search for little William Tyrrell. I'm wearing the badge that they've released.

[Gary Jubelin]

They're putting out flyers, they're asking for everyone to get involved, get on board.

[Dan Box]

William's foster parents were driving this behind the scenes. Although the state government barred them from speaking publicly because William was a child in care.

[William's Foster Father]

William is a little who needs to be home with his family.

[Dan Box]

So instead they provided a written statement.

[William's Foster Father]

Please, please, whoever you are, if you know something about William's disappearance, please help police find our little boy.

[Dan Box]

Tens of thousands of people took part in Walk for William events right across Australia.

[Gary Jubelin]

They're looking at what is called a Walk for William.

[Dan Box]

Now these will be held across New.

[William's Foster Father]

South Wales as well as in Queensland.

[Dan Box]

Other walks took place in New York, Canada, New Zealand, Japan and Ireland.

[William's Foster Father]

Now we are expecting up to a thousand people to pack into the Kendall Showgrounds.

[Dan Box]

The Kendall Showgrounds had been the focus of the search effort after William first went missing. Big round of applause too for Gary and his team.

[William's Foster Father]

It's obviously a distressing time for them and they've been doing a fantastic job.

[Dan Box]

Everybody involved in the search was invited to say thank you. There were flags and cake and a big book for people to sign. And Gary spoke.

[William's Foster Father]

We don't have any self doubt in.

[Gary Jubelin]

Regards to this investigation. We're going out at Hammering Tongs and doing everything that we can do.

[Dan Box]

And if you signed the book, there was a chance to win a prepaid Visa card, but really it was part of a covert operation because Gary wanted to identify the people who turned up in case the person responsible for William's disappearance was somewhere among the crowd.

[William's Foster Mother]

And we had 112 taxi backs between Sydney and Brisbane. We had a thousand bumper stickers all around the area. We had 100,000 coasters go out around the Mid north coast and around Sydney in key areas.

[Nina Y.]

With the whole purpose behind that is.

[William's Foster Mother]

That, you know, people have a few.

[Dan Box]

Drinks and if they know something, they might say something. Yeah. So everything that we did was strategic.

[Paul Savage]

Yeah.

[Dan Box]

Claire and Alice Collins are a mother and daughter team who run a small PR company.

[William's Foster Mother]

There are so many cases of missing children over the years that have just disappeared into people's memory. They don't know about those children because there was no campaign. Everyone knows about William. I'm not saying that's because of us, but the campaign, I think, pushed his face and his message into nearly every single home across Australia.

[Dan Box]

Working for free alongside the police and foster parents, they organized the Where's William Campaign, eventually taking it to the State Parliament.

[William's Foster Father]

Thank you, Deputy Premier and Minister of justice and Police, the Honourable Troy Brand.

[Dan Box]

And those in law enforcement, campaigners and politicians wept openly.

[William's Foster Mother]

And it starts with William. It starts with William.

[Dan Box]

We're going to bring him home. In its first year, the Where's William Campaign helped generate thousands of newspaper, magazine and TV news reports. It held over 200 community events, encouraged almost 3,000 new reports of information to Crime Stoppers and almost 200 direct to the police. It was a huge effort and it didn't stop. There was an event in the Federal Parliament.

[William's Foster Mother]

This has to resonate with every person in this nation because Australia can never become that country that just turns the other cheek on this.

[Dan Box]

And the second anniversary of William's disappearance was marked by the New South Wales Police Commissioner announcing the state's first million dollar reward for information. That's 1 million reason why somebody that knows what's happened should come forward and talk to us and do it soon. That reward was something else Gary Jublin, the campaigners and William's foster parents fought for. Gary got up in front of the TV cameras, announcing a second strike force made up of detectives from across New South Wales to help work through the long list of people whose names had come up in the investigation. The State Premier, Mike Baird, spoke about his sense of grief over William's disappearance.

[Gary Jubelin]

It's an incredibly difficult thing to watch as a parent.

[Dan Box]

Every parent across the nation sits and is absolutely in the sense of deep grief with that family. And privately, Mike Baird would go up to Gary and tell him, whatever you need in this investigation, you've got it.

[Gary Jubelin]

I want to pay tribute to Gary and his team. We have the best police, I think, in the world.

[Dan Box]

All of which is hugely impressive. But another year passed without any answers. And listening to William's foster parents, it sounds like things felt very different for them. By the second anniversary, we created our.

[William's Foster Mother]

Where's William Campaign to keep William alive in the public's conscious. You can't forget about this boy. You cannot forget about William. He's three years old. And I don't think the public can say that it's okay that this crime is not solved, because it's not okay. And we need to hold police to account and we need to push it and it needs to be solved.

[Dan Box]

Holding police to account is different to the simple trust they described once feeling in the police force.

[William's Foster Mother]

And I think part of what's helped us is we've had Gary who has kept it going.

[Gary Jubelin]

Um, I. I saw it as the sort of pinnacle of my career. You go through stages in your career where you're learning your trade as a homicide detective, then you're feeling a little bit comfortable, you're up to leading an investigation. And then you get to the point where I was in my career as one of the most experienced homicide detectives in the state, if not the country, and to lead an investigation like this, I felt comfortable doing it. I felt that I had the skills, I felt I had the energy, I felt that I had the experience. And so I wasn't overawed by leading the William Tyrrell investigation.

[Dan Box]

When Gary talks about leading, he means leading the two strike forces now working on it, as well as his team in the homicide squad who all worked on William's disappearance, but none of them were working only on this job. They all had other cases. In the course of half a day that I spent with Gary in Kendall around this time, talking about William's disappearance, he took a dozen phone calls about other murders he was leading right across New South Wales.

[Gary Jubelin]

Like you're working round the clock, weekends leave. I didn't know whether I was working or not. I was working 24 7. But making those sacrifices, it was worth it. Because you knew you were doing it for the right reason and to help the families find justice.

[Dan Box]

You talked about making sacrifices. Were you also prepared to make enemies to do that job?

[Gary Jubelin]

I don't seek to make enemies. But if someone is in the way of doing a homicide investigation efficiently and effectively, they put barriers in place. And you're talking about other cops now? I'm talking about other cops. I talk about lazy cops, whether they're junior to me or my colleagues or the ones that I particularly didn't like were the senior police that put their career ahead of what we're meant to be doing as homicide detectives. I think anyone that's a committed police officer would be changed. That changes your view on life. You know that you've got an awesome responsibility, a heavy responsibility that weighs on you, that you've got to do the right thing. So that's what drove me, without doubt. But sometimes you just got to stand up for what's right. Sometimes it's not easy. No one likes confrontation. I don't like confrontation. I'm good at it if it gets to confrontation, but I don't like it.

[Dan Box]

You once told me that when you're working a homicide investigation, you'll go in like a bulldozer and people will get hurt.

[William's Foster Father]

Yep.

[Dan Box]

What did you mean by that?

[Gary Jubelin]

The very nature of homicide investigation. If people think you can tippy toe around the homicide investigation, you're living in la la land. Homicide investigation is about finding out what's happened. I'm not talking about breaking rules here or going too far. I'm talking about you've got to go after a person, you've got to hunt that person, find that person and gather the evidence.

[Dan Box]

Gary's drive and determination was matched by some of those who worked on the strike force into William's disappearance. His officer in charge, Craig Lambert, was a former kickboxing champion. The two men would actually spar together in a car park outside the police station. Another detective, Louise Currie, was a former olympic athlete. In 2016, a few months short of the third anniversary of William's disappearance, Louise challenged Gary, saying she didn't believe there was enough information to exclude William's foster parents as suspects. She wanted to pull them back in for interview. Gary agreed and he sprung it on the couple without warning, pretending to invite them to a normal meeting, then taking them off separately under escort to windowless interview rooms where Louise had planned the questions. Transcripts of these recorded interviews show both detectives asked William's foster parents about things that would turn up years later in the theory now being pursued by the New South Wales Police Force or in leaks from the police to the media. Like how William wasn't wearing shoes at the time of the last known photo of him and the timing of exactly when William's foster mother says she spoke to a neighbour outside. At one point, Gary asks William's foster father whether the three year old might have hurt himself accidentally and his foster mum covered it up. Never likely, William's foster father replies. Could it have been a driveway tragedy? Where William was hit and killed accidentally by one of their cars? No. Could William's foster grandmother have done something terrible by accident and his foster mum cover it up? William's foster father says these police theories are completely laughable. The detectives also challenge William's foster mother about how she deleted a text from her husband saying he was on his way back to the house. Gary Jublin puts it to her that William might have fallen from the balcony or a tree and she panicked and covered it up. She denies this. You understand why the accusing finger gets pointed back this way? Gary asks her. Because invariably it's the people that had care or custody of the child. William's foster mother says no. She repeats it. No, no, never. Gary Jubalin doesn't ask her about the drive, though, where William's foster mother says she got into her mum's car and went down the road towards the crossroads. William's foster mother starts to bring this up, but Gary asks her about something else and they never come back to it. After William's foster parents were interrogated, they go home not knowing the police have fitted their car with a listening device. The couple say nothing either in the car or in their interviews with the detectives. For the strike force to decide that, yes, they should be suspects instead. Asked in her interview what she thinks happened to William, his foster mother talks about the two cars she says she remembers seeing parked on the road that morning. I also wonder about Paul, she says. I'm thinking if those two cars are there, they're visiting him. I just find Paul really odd. Okay, I'm good to go.

[William's Foster Father]

This is electronically recorded interview between Detective Chief Inspector Jublin and Mr. Paul Savage at Port Macquarie Police Station.

[Dan Box]

Paul Savage lives opposite the house where William was last seen. And you can't miss Paul. Pretty much every time I've been on Benaroon Drive, he comes out to say hello or see what's going on.

[William's Foster Father]

The time is 12.42pm on Wednesday 16th August 2017.

[Dan Box]

Paul was 70 when William went missing, but still fit. He walked in the bush every morning. In person, he's earnest and awkward, but there's something raw about him, as if he's always on the edge of a big emotion.

[William's Foster Father]

Assisting with this interview today is Detective Sergeant Laura Beecroft.

[Dan Box]

Paul had seen William before he was reported missing at a party on Benaroon Drive months earlier.

[William's Foster Father]

For the record, Sergeant Beecroft, could you please state your name and full rank?

[Dan Box]

Detective Sergeant Laura Beecroft. After again ruling out William's foster parents, Laura Beecroft was the Detective who initially took the lead in investigating Paul.

[William's Foster Father]

Mr. Savage, I'm going to ask you some questions about the disappearance of three year old missing boy William Tyrrell. Do you understand that?

[Nina Y.]

Yes.

[Dan Box]

Paul agreed to do this interview voluntarily and he didn't have a lawyer present.

[William's Foster Father]

My questions and any answers you give will be recorded on this machine. Do you understand that?

[Nina Y.]

Yes.

[Dan Box]

And his account of what happened that morning is complicated.

[William's Foster Father]

Do you understand that you're free to leave the police station today at any time you wish?

[Nina Y.]

Yeah.

[Dan Box]

The last known photo of William is taken at 9:37 in the morning of 12th September 2014. At 9:39, a phone call is made from Paul's house opposite to Casino Hospital where his brother was being treated.

[William's Foster Father]

Was he getting out of hospital or something? What was that? And so you were going to facilitate him?

[Nina Y.]

Yeah.

[William's Foster Father]

Get. Getting him out?

[Nina Y.]

Yeah.

[Dan Box]

That call lasts eight or nine minutes. Afterwards, Paul goes outside and can hear children playing over the road.

[William's Foster Father]

William's playing up there. You can hear him.

[Nina Y.]

I heard kids playing. I didn't say it was them. I said I heard kids playing Squirrely.

[William's Foster Father]

Take it from me, they're the only kids playing in the street.

[Dan Box]

About 20 minutes later. So around 10 past 10, some other neighbors hear the sound of a car on gravel. There's gravel at the top of Banneroon Drive between Paul's house and the house where William is reported missing. Shortly after, Paul's wife Heather leaves home.

[Nina Y.]

She left home at 10:38.

[William's Foster Father]

10:38, okay.

[Nina Y.]

I let her know what the time was because she would be late for bingo.

[Dan Box]

1038. Paul's specific about this time. He repeats it.

[Nina Y.]

Heather hadn't left till 10:38 and says.

[Dan Box]

The same in different interviews. But CCTV shows Heather must have left earlier about 10:30. At 10:41, there's a phone call from Paul's house to a medical center in Port Macquarie. And around that time, a neighbor also knocks on Paul's door.

[Nina Y.]

She said, have you heard? Did you know the little boy down the road's gone missing?

[Dan Box]

Paul says he walks over to the house where William was last seen.

[Nina Y.]

I come straight out and walked over to see if I could help.

[Dan Box]

He speaks to William's foster grandmother.

[Nina Y.]

She said he was out here playing.

[Dan Box]

And also speaks to the neighbours, Peter and Cherelle. Only Peter and Sherelle will later say that they didn't see Paul Savage that morning.

[William's Foster Father]

And then you walked up into the bush.

[Nina Y.]

That's right.

[William's Foster Father]

Okay.

[Nina Y.]

I said, well, I'll go up in the bush in case it went up that way.

[Dan Box]

Paul Says everyone else was looking for William down Benaroon Drive. So he turned up the road alone where a dirt trail leads into the forest.

[William's Foster Father]

Now, describe what you did in the bush. You indicated that's the rough area that you walked.

[Nina Y.]

I didn't guess.

[Paul Savage]

Yeah.

[William's Foster Father]

Yeah. Okay. In the general area, that's the area that you walked.

[Nina Y.]

That's right.

[William's Foster Father]

Okay. And you also indicated that you got a little bit lost, which I did. Where did you get lost?

[Nina Y.]

Oh, just walking down here. I couldn't remember where my backyard was, so I've come down here and that's why I've come around here.

[William's Foster Father]

Okay. And what did you do after you've. So you've taken it, you're trying to help. You're telling me that you're trying to help and look for this child?

[Nina Y.]

Yeah.

[William's Foster Father]

And you've gone off in the bush and I think you've described this for 30 minutes or so.

[Nina Y.]

Yeah, something like that.

[William's Foster Father]

Okay.

[Nina Y.]

Couldn't remember.

[William's Foster Father]

You're walked up around the bush for 30 minutes?

[Nina Y.]

Yeah.

[Dan Box]

After those 30 minutes, Paul says he comes home without seeing anyone. But he doesn't go down the road to ask if William's been found or talk to anyone to let them know which area of bush he's just searched.

[William's Foster Father]

You didn't think to go back and say, hey, he's not up there. Or have you found him? You've just gone back in and had a cup of tea.

[Nina Y.]

Well, everybody else is making that much noise. What's the good of me going out there enjoying a crowd of people when they're running around like chook with their throat cut?

[William's Foster Father]

You weren't even curious? You go in there and have a cup of tea.

[Nina Y.]

You don't have to be curious when I can hear everybody else looking for the little boy.

[William's Foster Father]

So you know he's still lost and you're having a cup of tea.

[Nina Y.]

Well, what else do you want me to do?

[William's Foster Father]

Perhaps go out there and help look?

[Nina Y.]

I just had a look and I was thirsty. After a walk, I presume that's thirsty.

[William's Foster Father]

You walk for two hours a day.

[Dan Box]

Paul says he stays inside the house for 10 minutes. In a separate interview, he'll say it was 15 minutes. But neither of those times really add up. Looking at the timings, if Paul walked in the bush for 30 minutes, as he says, he must have been home alone drinking tea for nearly two hours.

[Nina Y.]

Yeah, and once I finished in there and the brother in law and them.

[Dan Box]

Showed up, Paul says he leaves his house just as his brother and sister in law arrive for a planned visit. And they say they got there about 1pm though in another interview, Paul says he left his house, walked over the road, talked to William's foster grandmother and a police officer, then came back and only then saw his relative's car pull up.

[William's Foster Father]

Was it just pure coincidence you're sitting there having a cup of tea with all this commotion? The biggest commotion Benaroon Drive's ever seen and you just happened to decide to come out just when your brother in law and sister in law turn up.

[Nina Y.]

Now, well, what else would you call it?

[William's Foster Father]

I'd call it the remarkable coincidence.

[Nina Y.]

Well, it is a coincidence. I've got nothing to be ashamed of.

[William's Foster Father]

You've nothing to be ashamed of?

[Nina Y.]

No.

[William's Foster Father]

Okay.

[Dan Box]

Cocaine is a global industry where the profits are counted up in millions and the losses measured out in murders because it's only business. And right now business is good. And I'm like, torture seller.

[Paul Savage]

What are you talking about?

[Gary Jubelin]

I don't think we can arrest our.

[Dan Box]

Way out of this. Listen to Cocaine Inc. Wherever you get your podcasts or visit.

[Laura Beecroft]

Cocaineinc.Com au the podcast Faith on Trial looks into Hillsong, both in Australia and the US and takes both the listener and hosts on unex unexpected twists and turns in the story of Brian Houston and the singing preachers.

[William's Foster Father]

There are two incidents involving Pastor Brian.

[Laura Beecroft]

The Australian journalists uncovered a litany of alleged criminal behavior in the megachurch.

[Dan Box]

Financial gifts were being given to the.

[Laura Beecroft]

Leaders of the church. Listen to Faith on Trial Hillsong ad free on Crimex plus on Apple podcasts today or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Dan Box]

Okay, so I have questions. In an earlier interview with the police, Paul says he's pretty sure he didn't know that his relatives were coming to visit that day. But in this interview with Gary Jubilen, he says maybe he did know.

[Nina Y.]

I can't remember, but I dare say it was because Heather's brother and sister in law were due to arrive. Now we're coming to visit us.

[Dan Box]

Paul himself was also due to leave that morning at 11 to drive four hours north to Cassino where his brother was getting out of hospital. But it's unsure when Paul called his brother that day to say he wasn't coming and why Heather didn't seem to notice anyone out in the street earlier that morning when she left for bingo. Given we know at least William's foster mother, grandmother and possibly one neighbor were out there around that time looking for him. Heather died in the months after William went missing.

[Nina Y.]

Since Heather passed away, I haven't left this area.

[William's Foster Father]

Right.

[Nina Y.]

I feel like I'm turning their back on that.

[William's Foster Father]

And look, your love for Heather, I know it's strong. And, yeah, you walked around with a picture around your neck for a month or so, as I understand it, in.

[Dan Box]

Case you didn't catch that. Paul agrees that he carried a picture of Heather around his neck for a month after she died. Paul himself spoke to police on the day William was reported missing, but his house wasn't searched until three days later. A year later, a detective spoke to Paul again at home and again in January 2016. Two months after that, in March, Detective Sergeant Laura Beecroft spent four hours with Paul, taking a formal witness statement, where he described spending half an hour in the bush searching for William on his own and how he got a bit lost. Paul has said the same thing to me in person, though he didn't want to be recorded, and I've got questions about that also in Kendall, after talking to Paul, I walk up the hill from the house where William was reported missing, trying to get lost.

[Paul Savage]

Paul used to walk this track every day, and he said that it's quite easy to get lost through the bush here. Even from here, you're still just in sight of the roofs of the houses. But if you were looking for a child and you set off away from the track like this, then suddenly it seems quite different. The bush kind of swallows you up on either side. Hang on. It is pretty thick and it is pretty tangled, but the space between the track that I've turned off and the houses on Benaroon Drive itself isn't that big. So there is a little track here. Might just be an animal track. And then it kind of almost disappears, but I'm gonna take it and follow it. The longer I spend doing this, the harder I find it to understand Paul's explanation of his actions. Because having been here, you get these glimpses of the houses through the trees, and there's a couple of tracks and everything is on a slope back down to the houses of Benareen Drive. And then you walk through here for a while and you hit this creek which is in front of me. So it's currently dry. It's maybe five meters wide. But I'm not a local. I've been here maybe half a dozen times now. But I knew that creek runs behind the houses, and so Paul must have known if he walked here every day. And if I follow this creek down through the forest, it's very quickly I do see the sun shining off the roof of one of the houses is behind Benaroon Drive. So Paul's Getting lost in an area that is contained by the first track he walked off on, which is a. Basically a fire trail, the slope of the hill, and then the dry creek. I do struggle to see how he got lost, but I'm not in Paul's mind. And so my experience of this today is not Paul's experience. And the problem is now, to get out of the bush, I think I'm gonna have to walk through someone's garden. And in fact, the garden I'm walking through is Paul Savage's garden.

[Dan Box]

Another thing that caught the detective's attention was in March 2016, when Paul found a covert surveillance camera on a tree in the bush surrounding his property. So obviously, the camera wasn't very covert. The police had put it there to keep an eye on someone else, because at this point, they're investigating more than one of what they called persons of interest. And one thing I do know about Gary Jubalin is he loves a covert surveillance operation. This surveillance camera kept recording as Paul picked it up, looked straight into it, then took the camera inside.

[William's Foster Father]

When police are working and looking around this area, you find the camera and just hang on to it. If the police didn't turn up with a view, just hung onto it forever.

[Nina Y.]

No, I would have taken that into Lauraton Police.

[William's Foster Father]

When would have you taken into?

[Nina Y.]

I'm not quite sure how long? I didn't have it all that long.

[William's Foster Father]

How long did he have it for?

[Dan Box]

You had the camera, Mr. Savage, for approximately five weeks.

[Nina Y.]

I don't know about being that long, I can tell you.

[Dan Box]

I'll tell you.

[William's Foster Mother]

You've had the camera for five weeks.

[Dan Box]

Well, that's not a small amount of time. The voice you can hear there is Detective Sergeant Laura Beecroft, who is the detective looking at Paul Savage. Based on what she told him, Gary Jubilin decided to make Paul the focus of the Strike Forces investigation. And Paul's home and phones are placed under surveillance. The police also put a tracker on his car. Two undercover cops are sent in to talk to Paul, one posing as a freelance journalist, the other as a psychic, both wanting to talk about William Tyrrell. And the listening devices are recording. And the police are waiting to see how Paul reacts. Now, if you're thinking that sounds similar to what police did with their previous person of interest, Bill Spedding, using covert surveillance, then dialing up the pressure to see if someone will crack, then, yeah, it's from the same playbook. I told you. Gary likes a surveillance operation. And one thing Gary himself was focused on was the fact that Paul also Had a history of approaching people when he might not be welcome, including William's foster grandmother.

[William's Foster Father]

No one's ever asked you to stay away from a house because you make them feel uncomfortable.

[Nina Y.]

That's right.

[William's Foster Father]

No one's ever done that.

[Nina Y.]

Not that I know.

[William's Foster Father]

Okay.

[Dan Box]

But William's foster grandmother had done that, asking Paul's wife, Heather, to pass on the message.

[Nina Y.]

Well, if that's it, I used to go up there and I'd ask her, did she want a hand? That's always worried about her.

[William's Foster Father]

And Heather didn't relay to you to stay away because you're making her feel uncomfortable? Think about this.

[Nina Y.]

Yeah, I am. I'm trying to remember. That's. Yeah, she. Yeah.

[Dan Box]

None of this is evidence that Paul had anything to do with William's disappearance. But Gary does go on raising the fact that there's an apprehended violence order in place against Paul, preventing him from approaching the local postwoman. That postwoman didn't want to talk about it when I call her. But court documents say that in the years before William was reported missing, more than once, Paul did approach her, crying and shaking, saying, I love you, or I want to spend more time with you, or followed the postwoman in his car, saying, I can't live like this, not seeing you. Eventually, Australia Post stopped delivering to Paul's house. Then, after the AVO was granted, Paul approached the postwoman again, saying he wanted to wish her a happy birthday. He was charged and pleaded guilty to breaching an avo. But when questioned about it by Gary, Paul denies his behavior, was threatening, calling the court case a conspiracy.

[Nina Y.]

The idea was a load of crap.

[William's Foster Father]

Explain to me how you stalking a woman is a setup.

[Nina Y.]

I never stalked her at any time.

[William's Foster Father]

So it's all lies?

[Nina Y.]

Yes.

[William's Foster Father]

So when you went into the post office crying and shaking, that was a lie. And everyone that saw it said it was a lie.

[Nina Y.]

What? When did I go in there crying? I went in there once, and I was upset and I was crying.

[William's Foster Father]

Why were you upset and crying?

[Nina Y.]

Because I was feeling really depressed. So I went home and I went straight back and I apologized.

[William's Foster Father]

Right. And when the police issued an abo.

[Nina Y.]

Yeah.

[William's Foster Father]

What happened after that?

[Nina Y.]

After the abo?

[William's Foster Father]

Yeah.

[Nina Y.]

Bloody nothing.

[William's Foster Father]

You didn't get charged?

[Nina Y.]

Oh, yeah, because I got one day's notice to get help.

[William's Foster Father]

One day's notice to get help? What are you talking about?

[Nina Y.]

Well, I had to be caught on Tuesday. I got the thing on Saturday night to front up in court. I had no idea what I had to do.

[William's Foster Father]

Look, Mr. Savage, what I think we need to take a step back. I'm not sitting here in judgment of you. But what I can't sit here and is take lies. Okay.

[Nina Y.]

Okay. Then throw that in the bin because that's a pack of rubbish.

[William's Foster Father]

It's not a pack of rubbish.

[Nina Y.]

It is a pack of rubber rubbish. Yeah, well, you ask her.

[William's Foster Father]

I have asked her.

[Nina Y.]

Okay, then you ask her, why did you ring me in July, three months after I got the abo on me? Why did you ring me and told me she loved me?

[William's Foster Father]

She loves you.

[Nina Y.]

That's what she said.

[William's Foster Father]

Let's get this clear. You're telling me that this wasn't you stalking her? She was in love with you.

[Nina Y.]

I didn't stalk.

[William's Foster Father]

But she's in love with you.

[Nina Y.]

She murdered me.

[Dan Box]

You can hear it in Paul's voice now, the pressure building. And at his home, the listening devices were in place. The transcript of what's recorded on just one of those devices in Paul's kitchen runs to over a hundred pages, though the quality of the devices themselves wasn't great. So there's gaps in the recordings where no one can make out what Paul is saying. Or places where the transcript says file does not exist. And in other places, there's disputes between detectives, with one saying they heard one thing and another saying they heard something else. What you can say is that almost always Paul is talking on his own, sometimes ranting at the television. Often it seems like he's talking to his dead wife, Heather. He calls her angel, or more often, Mum. He breaks down sobbing or seems bitter, saying things like, you set me up. Don't lie, lunatic, or no one will know it was you. Listening to these recordings, Gary Jublin decided to increase the pressure.

[Craig Lambert]

Okay, recording. Where are we going?

[Paul Savage]

Was this track where the police under Gary Jubilen left the Spider man suit for Paul Savage to find, deliberately left it for him to find on his morning walk.

[Dan Box]

A Spider man suit was what 3 year old William Tyrrell was wearing on the morning he was reported missing. And at this point, Paul Savage is under pressure.

[Paul Savage]

He's got listening devices in his house, listening device in his car. His phone calls are being recorded.

[Dan Box]

And the idea is just to increase that pressure.

[Paul Savage]

But putting a Spider man suit, last identified with a disappeared three year old, on the path of his morning walk. I mean, I've said this to Gary Jubilant, it sounds crazy, but they did it. And then they watched his reaction.

[Dan Box]

The people watching Paul's reaction were specialized surveillance officers brought up from Sydney and waiting, hidden in the scrub on either side Paul walks up wearing an akubra hat with a water bottle hanging over his shoulder. He gets to the suit and stops a few meters from where it lies. And Paul looks. 1, 2, 3, 4. The waiting police count 12 seconds. And at the same time, they're filming Paul and taking photographs.

[Paul Savage]

And unfortunately, all of the photos we've seen taken by the surveillance police who.

[Dan Box]

Were hiding in the bushes on either.

[Paul Savage]

Side.

[Dan Box]

None of them show Paul and.

[Paul Savage]

The Spider man suit in the same frame. So none of them conclusively show that.

[Dan Box]

He is definitely looking at that suit. They show that he's looking in the.

[Paul Savage]

Direction of where the suit is known to be.

[Dan Box]

And the specialist surveillance cops who were in the bushes reported that they saw.

[Paul Savage]

Him looking at the suit. But because you haven't got that one bit of photographic evidence that proves it conclusively, it's always open to doubt.

[Dan Box]

What's not open to doubt is that Paul does not report seeing the suit that morning. Instead, he goes home where the listening device records him saying something like, have to do it. Though on the transcript, one detective has added a comment that says possibly why did I have to do it? Or why did they have to do it? It's not certain. So the next day, the police left the suit out, waiting for Paul again.

[Paul Savage]

You've got this guy under surveillance. You want to know what he might.

[Dan Box]

Know either to include him or, or.

[Paul Savage]

To exclude him from your investigation.

[Dan Box]

So you just dial up the pressure. I mean, there's a whole question about how fair that is or how much trauma you might be exposing this guy to. But then you rationalize that if you're.

[Paul Savage]

The police by saying, we're investigating a possible child abduction.

[Dan Box]

So almost anything we do is okay because we're trying to put right that wrong. The next day, Paul leaves for his morning walk at 7:33am At 7:37, the waiting police watch him stop, bend over to look at the Spider man suit, then stand, walk back the way he came. Paul starts to run as he enters his driveway, and within minutes he's on the phone reporting seeing the suit to the police. And later that same morning, Paul's recorded on a listening device in his house, saying the suit wasn't there yesterday, he couldn't have missed it, and sobbing the word mum.

[Craig Lambert]

It's almost like the Truman Show. I kind of think it'll be quite hard to come through this and not have that in the back of your mind for a long time.

[Paul Savage]

I don't think anyone's come through this investigation unscathed because. Because once You've had the experience, like on your morning walk, you literally had police on either side hiding, watching you. How you ever let that go, particularly if you're innocent? But then the police's job is to.

[Dan Box]

Establish whether or not you're innocent. And so the question is, how far.

[Paul Savage]

Is it okay for them to go to establish your innocence or your guilt?

[Dan Box]

In his interview with Paul Savage, Gary Jubalin goes at him hard, accusing Paul of lying about whether he saw that suit the first morning.

[William's Foster Father]

This fascinates me that you can sit here and lie to me like that when I know and you know you're telling a lie.

[Nina Y.]

No, I'm not. I'm not lying. I walked up there, I seen that suit and I went straight back home. I rang the police and I.

[William's Foster Father]

No, it just. Sorry. It just fascinates me that you can lie like this.

[Nina Y.]

I'm not lying. I'm not lying. I'm not interested in lying. What's the use of lying?

[William's Foster Father]

Well, then if you don't think you're lying, then you're totally delusional. And everything you're telling me comes in the.

[Nina Y.]

Maybe I should have kept my nose out and just left it to rot there.

[William's Foster Father]

Well, you considered that the first 24.

[Nina Y.]

Hours straight down and reported it.

[William's Foster Father]

No, you didn't.

[Nina Y.]

Yes, I did.

[William's Foster Father]

I know you're lying.

[Nina Y.]

I'm not lying.

[Dan Box]

Back at Paul's home, the listening devices are recording as he repeatedly denies seeing the Spider man suit on the first of the two days police left it on the bush track. Paul says other things to himself also. One day Paul says, no, no. He tells me what he's gonna do. No, he tells me that he's going to whether I want it or not. No. Yeah, well, I'm going to run into your property, too. This is my place. You're in my place. You do what I want. You're a little boy. You're nobody. You're just a little boy. You're nobody. You don't tell me, I'll tell you. I did tell you. Another time. He says murderers are sick and child abusers a rotten bit of rubbish. Paul accuses Gary Jublin of setting him up and insists on his innocence over anything to do with William Tyrrell. He says police are going to try and square it up on me. I haven't got a witness. It's all lies. He says he now won't help police. I was going to tell them about the two boys, but bugger it, he says, I couldn't hurt a kid and later I Haven't deliberately hurt anything or anybody in a long, long time. Paul says he can't sleep because of the police investigation. Meaning the pressure is getting to him. He talks about his dead wife Heather, saying he's sorry, saying, quote, he's a boy and great, they're gonna find something. Mum, don't dob on me, okay? And, oh, Mum, what do I do? What do I do? Later the same day, Paul says, what is it, God, and forgive me, please. What did I do, Ma? What did I do? And a couple of days later, on the 10th of September 2017, Paul moans and possibly talks in his sleep, saying, it is what it is and you've done it again. You've done it again. You're going overboard, you know? On the 11th of September, 2017, that's one day before the third anniversary of William's disappearance. Paul says it's in the paper. That's the last time I seen him. And because it's true, it's true if I don't remember. Cause it's true. Other people stirring things up. And he says, get it right, mate. They had no proof, nothing, because there can't be. Nothing ever happened. And he says his memories are gone. He says, I can't remember anything if you tell me what you were doing on 1135 on the 12th of fucking September in 2014. Can you remember? And he says to himself, but I think he's imagining talking to Gary. I've not lied to you once. I might have forgotten things, I might have twisted them up, but I've not lied. I don't lie to you. I make mistakes. And that, I think, is all that you can take from the thousands of hours of listening devices, recordings that Paul can be mistaken, meaning even Paul Savage sometimes doesn't know whether his own thoughts are accurate.

[William's Foster Father]

So I then, look, actually, look, stop. I'm not interested in you making up your lies.

[Nina Y.]

I'm not making up lies.

[William's Foster Father]

All right, we'll move on to the next thing. Okay, but was that sound. We'll just have to change some tapes. So the time now is 2.33pm the interview between Detective Chief Inspector Jublin and Mr. Paul Savage is suspended.

[Dan Box]

During this break in his interview with the detectives, Paul leaves the room to use the toilet unrecorded. The two detectives, Laura Beecroft and Gary Jublin, talk about whether they think Paul really did see the Spider man suit that they left on the Bush Track on the first day or only on the second, as Paul claims. Laura thinks Paul's telling the truth, but Gary Jubilen still has questions. The interview resumes.

[William's Foster Father]

Electronically recorded interview between Detective Chief Inspector Gary Jublin and Mr. Paul Savage. Recommence. The time is 2:42pm yes, all right. Well, we'll continue on with the interview.

[Dan Box]

Outside the interview room, disagreement between the detectives is starting to divide the police strike force. Not all of them are as driven as Gary Jublin or Craig Lambert. The two leaders. Some are less motivated or unhappy to be there or have other human failings. One member of the strike force will later leave the cops after an internal investigation found he had sex in his police car while on duty, took photos of his genitalia in the office and pretended to be at work when he wasn't. And others among the strike force are also hard to manage. Some start to disagree with Gary's focus on Paul Savage. And Gary's answer is always to keep working.

[William's Foster Father]

If. If you're. If you're sitting there and you honestly believe you're telling me the truth about the Spider man suit, I know you're lying and that.

[Nina Y.]

No, you don't. I. I'm telling you the truth. I never seen it the day before. Why would I leave it a day and then go down and ring up? Why would I do that?

[William's Foster Father]

Because you're involved in the abduction of William Tyrrell.

[Nina Y.]

Bloody rubbish. I am not lying. Why would I bother lying? This is bloody ridiculous. I. I'm not.

[Dan Box]

At the same time he is running this investigation, Gary's also going through a divorce, his second. And his strike force is starting to founder under the sheer weight of their workload. By the end of 2017, they have over 14,000 separate products, meaning reports or photographs or documents to work through about Williams. They have listening device recordings still to go through. Some of those on the strike force, like Craig Lambert, have thousands of tasks allocated to them. Craig later describes their workload, saying, quote, from start to finish of my shift, I'm literally churning through these products as quickly as possible. It was a race against myself to get them done. Onto the next bank. Bang, bang, bang. Police records show Gary's repeatedly asking for more staff, but his staff numbers are cut instead by his bosses. And stuff gets missed. And information keeps on coming in, not least because the Where's William campaign keeps encouraging people to come forward. Meaning despite everything the police are doing to exclude them, the number of people on their persons of interest list keeps increasing. There is a difficulty in targeting any person of interest as we have literally no evidence, Gary writes in one report to his bosses. He warns the investigation could go on for years. Paul.

[William's Foster Father]

I'll strip it down. I won't even call you Mr. Savage. I'll call you Paul.

[Nina Y.]

Yeah, well that's a best way.

[William's Foster Father]

Okay, cuz this we're getting down to the nitty gritty.

[Nina Y.]

Yeah, which is good.

[Dan Box]

Gary's strike force start turning on each other, criticizing him between themselves and particularly Gary's focus on Paul Savage. Some of the junior detectives even drive up to Kendall, walk out along the bush track and try to prove Paul couldn't have seen the Spider man suit that first morning when he did not report it. Only they can't prove it and their mini investigation is kind of farcical. They don't even take a tape measure to make sure they know where Paul was standing. But it does prove that Gary's grip on his team is slipping and he can no longer trust them to back each other and his leadership. Gary keeps on working, pushing himself and the team around him harder. He makes some bad decisions. Three times in 2017 and 2018, Gary visits Paul at home alone. Their conversations are recorded on the listening devices and also on Gary's mobile. Gary also records a phone conversation with Paul asking again about the Spider man suit.

[William's Foster Father]

Hello, Paul? Yes, Gary Jublin here from the police.

[Dan Box]

At the same time, Gary's preparing to hold an inquest into William's disappearance. The sole reason Gary wants to have this inquest is to pressure Paul to ask him everything. How he got lost in the bush. The listening device recordings the Spider man suit, whether he did or didn't see it. But preparing for the inquest means even more work for the strike force, which is now disintegrating to the point that Gary and his officer in charge, Craig Lambert, physically square off against each other in the offices of the homicide squad and have to be separated. Craig, who thinks the continued pursuit of Paul Savage is wrong headed and a waste of time, has his gun taken from him and is escorted from the building. Gary goes back to work. The inquest is due to start in months in March 2019. There are other persons of interest other than Paul that Gary asks his team to look at. On top of this, on the 19th of January, weeks out from the inquest, Gary is sent to northern New south Wales, a seven hour drive from Sydney to investigate the shooting of two police officers. The next day, 20 January, he's sent to Newcastle to lead another murder investigation. Two days later, on the 22nd, Gary is told that he's under internal investigation and taken off all active homicide cases, meaning he never works on the disappearance of William tyrrell. Again, in March 2019, Paul gave evidence at the inquest. Looking at what happened to William, he said his memory was now a bit cloudy and gave some of his evidence in private behind closed doors. So we don't know if Paul was asked about what he said on those listening device recordings or whether he did see the Spider man suit on that first day or only on the second. Like he told the police, I did.

[Nina Y.]

Not see the suit the day before or I would have reported it.

[William's Foster Father]

How. Okay.

[Dan Box]

And speaking of listening device recordings, after Paul Savage leaves this interview with the detectives, he's recorded on a listening device in his car, saying, make sure you don't tell anyone, love. They're right after me. Don't tell anyone, love, please. They're right after me. Sorry. And we don't know if he was ever asked about that as well. Years later, when I go up to Kendall for this podcast, I park on Benny Roon Drive and Paul walks up. We get talking. Paul tells me he did see the suit. He doesn't want to be recorded, but I make shorthand notes as he's talking. Paul says, on the first day, he saw only the top and thought, I don't know about that, and maybe it was some other kids who left it. He says the next. The next day, he saw the whole suit. He says he did think of William Tyrrell when he saw half the suit, but because it was only the top, he thought it wasn't important. On the second day, when he saw the whole suit, Paul says, I thought it was probably his. William's. He says, I felt hopeful. I hoped we could solve the case. I ask him why he didn't tell the police this at the time, and Paul doesn't really explain it. He says, I've left it a bit longer than I should have, but it will come out eventually. Only it hasn't until now. At the inquest, one of the detectives, Laura Becroft, said she didn't think Paul was still what she called an active person of interest. But at that point, Laura herself was no longer on the strike force, so couldn't be certain. But one of the detectives who's still working on the investigation gave evidence about Paul in a separate court hearing that Detective Mark Jukes said, there was no exculpatory evidence that I was aware of that could completely eliminate Paul Savage from the investigation. In court, Mark said his view was that Paul should not be written out of the case. That was in February 2019, just after Gary Jublin was taken off it. But I Think that's what happened. The police are no longer looking at Paul Savage. And Paul is 80 now and even he admits his memories can be mistaken. Meaning. And there are still unanswered questions. Nina, the producer on this podcast, spoke to Paul on the phone last week and he said no one from the police had been to talk to him since Gary was taken off the investigation. And that decision to take Gary off the investigation, that changed everything. And we'll get into that in detail next week on Witness. William Tyrrell.

[William's Foster Father]

This electronic interview between Detective Inspector Jublin and Paul Savage is now concluded. Before I turn the tapes off, ask you a couple of questions. Has any threat, promise or inducement been held out to you to give the answers you were given in this interview?

[Nina Y.]

No.

[William's Foster Father]

Have you provided these answers of your own free will?

[Nina Y.]

Yes.

[William's Foster Father]

Is there anything further you wish to say in relation to this matter?

[Nina Y.]

Nothing. No. No more I can say. I can't help you. I wish I could.

[William's Foster Father]

All right, thank you.

[Dan Box]

A lot of different people have been involved in making this series. Among them, the executive producer is Nina Y.

[Paul Savage]

Young.

[Dan Box]

The sound design was by Tiffany dimack. The producers have been Emily Pidgeon, Nicholas Adams, Jasbar, Phoebe Zukowski Wallace and Tabby Wilson. Research by Aidan Patrick. Original Music by Rory O'Connor. Our lawyer is Stephen Coombs. The editor at news.com au is Kerry Warren. I'm Dan. Bob.

[Gary Jubelin]

Did you know that there's more than 2,000 stocks listed on the Australian Stock Exchange? Most of which you've never heard of, most of which are actually right at the cutting edge of what's going to drive our economy into the future. They're in mining, searching for the battery metals to power us into the future. Medical companies researching the next big breakthrough to make us healthy into the future. Or tech companies. Brilliant young Australian entrepreneurs seeking the next big tech unicorn. Well, if you want to know about them, search Stockhead. Stockhead is focused on the small. You never know you could find the next big thing. Stockhead.com.

[Laura Beecroft]

Are you ready to get an inside look at crime from someone who has investigated some of Australia's worst crimes? Was like Aladdin's cave.

[Gary Jubelin]

The Luminal found bloodied footprints and bloodied handprints on a wall. So it's just like a horror movie.

[Laura Beecroft]

Former homicide detective Gary Jubilant sits down with cops, crims, addicts, victims, small time cheats and big town lawyers as they tell their incredible stories.

[William's Foster Father]

My house got raided. Next thing you know, I got bail refused. Next thing you know, I'm on a.

[Gary Jubelin]

Truck to Park Lee Prison.

[Laura Beecroft]

Listen to I Catch Killers early and ad free on Crymax plus on Apple podcasts today or wherever you get your podcasts.