Searching for Karlie | 2

Summary

Witness: William Tyrrell - Episode 2: Searching for Karlie

Host: Dan Box
Producer: Nina Young
Episode Release Date: October 13, 2024
Podcast Series: Witness (news.com.au)

---

Introduction: The Quest to Reach Carly

The episode opens with Dan Box and producer Nina Young embarking on a crucial mission to locate William Tyrrell's birth mother, Carly. They highlight the difficulty in contacting her, having exhausted various methods such as social media and multiple phone numbers without success.

Dan Box [00:04]: "We're going to try and find William's birth mother, Carly. And the reason I want to talk to Carly is really just to let her know what we're doing and why we're doing it... if it was my child, I would want someone to contact me before doing this."

Their final attempt involves door-to-door visits to three addresses where Carly might reside, emphasizing their respectful and honest approach to contacting her.

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Encountering Barriers: Unsuccessful Attempts to Locate Carly and Brendan

Dan and Nina describe their experience visiting the three addresses:

1. First Address: The house had been recently sold and renovated, with no trace of the Tyrrell family.
2. Second Address: An apartment block where they found no one familiar with the family.
3. Third Address: Another apartment complex but again, no leads were found.

Dan Box [01:26]: "We've got three addresses and we're going to knock each of those houses and ask if she's there and ask if she wants to talk to us."

Despite their efforts, they remain unable to locate Carly or Brendan, William's biological father.

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A Glimmer of Hope: Contacting Natalie Collins

Their journey leads them to Natalie Collins, William's biological grandmother, who has traditionally been the spokesperson for the family. Initially willing to speak, Natalie becomes highly emotional and confrontational during the interview, highlighting the profound impact of William's disappearance on her family.

Natalie Collins [06:20]: "The thing is that they shouldn't have taken the kids off them in the first place. And that's where it's all going to start."

Natalie expresses deep anger and sorrow over the decision to remove William from his biological parents, suggesting that this was the pivotal moment leading to his disappearance.

Natalie Collins [09:23]: "Like, Brendan, he lost his son. I lost my son. And I lost myself as well."

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Emotional Turmoil: Natalie’s Outburst

During her conversation with Nina, Natalie becomes increasingly agitated, expressing frustration with the media and reporters.

Natalie Collins [10:39]: "All you reporters are the same. I don't. I haven't talked to a reporters for a long time."

Her emotional state underscores the family's prolonged suffering and the lack of closure regarding William's disappearance.

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Producer’s Dilemma: Balancing Empathy and Storytelling

Nina Young grapples with the ethical dilemma of using Natalie's emotional outburst in the podcast. Dan Box argues that including the raw emotion is essential to convey the depth of the family's grief.

Nina Young [11:07]: "I don't feel good about that at all. You know, I felt awful that happened."

Dan Box [12:05]: "It demonstrates the sheer emotion and the sheer trauma that those close to William have gone through."

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Second Attempt: Emily Pigeon Reconnects with Natalie

Producer Emily Pigeon manages to secure another interview with Natalie, who continues to condemn both Carly and Brendan, although some of her claims lack corroborative evidence from official records.

Natalie Collins [30:08]: "I don't even know. Like, that was probably the worst thing he ever did in his life is meet her."

Natalie critiques Carly's parenting, claiming William was mistreated in foster care, though official documents and other testimonies provide conflicting accounts.

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Inconsistencies in Foster Care Records

Dan Box contrasts Natalie's account with the official foster care records, which depict a stable environment for William. Despite Natalie's claims of abuse, the records indicate that William exhibited typical childhood behaviors and adjusted well in foster care.

Dan Box [22:22]: "Every visit by William's caseworker is documented saying how William seemed, what he was wearing, his general health..."

However, discrepancies arise when Natalie's allegations about William's well-being do not align with these records, adding complexity to the investigation.

---

Historical Context: The Original Removal of William

The episode delves into the circumstances leading to William's initial removal from his biological parents. In February 2012, amid allegations of domestic violence and neglect, authorities intervened, and William was placed into foster care.

Dan Box [37:40]: "Since recording this episode, I've spoken again to Natalie... 'We took William off Carly to protect him.'"

An anonymous official reflects on the decision, revealing internal conflicts and doubts about whether the intervention was truly in William's best interest.

Anonymous Official [45:21]: "We took William off Carly to protect him... But you're only human if you're asking the question."

---

Current Status: Continued Search and Emerging Theories

Dan and Nina reveal that their search for Carly remains unsuccessful, but they provide a nuanced understanding of her possible sentiments towards William's disappearance. The episode hints at unresolved issues with the foster family, particularly Carly's alleged innocence versus suspicions from the police.

Dan Box [46:28]: "You're only human if you're asking the question."

The narrative suggests that while Carly insists on her innocence, the police still harbor suspicions, keeping the investigation alive after a decade.

---

Conclusion: Unanswered Questions and Ongoing Investigations

The episode concludes with reflections on the broader implications of William's disappearance, particularly the controversial decision to remove him from his biological parents. It highlights the lingering questions and the persistent hope for answers from both the Tyrrell family and the investigative team.

Dan Box [50:57]: "We've all got stories and thoughts, but I thought, how fucking ironic is that?"

As the episode wraps up, listeners are encouraged to come forward with any information, emphasizing the ongoing nature of the investigation.

---

Key Takeaways:

• Family Dynamics: The removal of William from his biological parents is central to understanding his subsequent disappearance.

• Emotional Impact: The episode underscores the profound grief and frustration experienced by the biological family, particularly Natalie Collins.

• Investigative Challenges: Locating Carly and Brendan proves difficult, with their current whereabouts remaining unknown.

• Conflicting Narratives: Natalie's accusations against the foster parents contrast with official records, complicating the narrative.

• Ethical Reporting: The producers navigate the delicate balance between storytelling and respecting the family's emotional state.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Dan Box [00:04]: "If it was my child, I would want someone to contact me before doing this."

• Natalie Collins [06:20]: "They shouldn't have taken the kids off them in the first place."

• Natalie Collins [09:23]: "Like, Brendan, he lost his son. I lost my son. And I lost myself as well."

• Dan Box [12:05]: "It demonstrates the sheer emotion and the sheer trauma that those close to William have gone through."

• Anonymous Official [45:46]: "We thought we were all doing the right thing... but this is what happened."

---

Production Team:

• Executive Producer: Nina Young
• Sound Design: Tiffany Dimac
• Producers: Emily Pigeon, Nicholas Adams Jasbar, Phoebe Zukowski Wallace
• Voice Acting: Marcus Obern
• Research: Aidan Patrick
• Music: Rory O'Connor
• Legal: Stephen Coombs
• Editor: Kerry Warren

---

Call to Action:

Listeners are urged to contact CrimeStoppers at 1800 333 000 or [e-mail] if they have any information regarding William Tyrrell's disappearance. Confidential tips are crucial to advancing the investigation after ten years of uncertainty.

---

Witness serves as a poignant investigative series, shedding light on one of Australia's most enduring missing person cases. Episode 2, "Searching for Karlie," deepens the exploration into the family dynamics and governmental decisions that have left lasting scars on the Tyrrell family.

Transcript

[Dan Box]

One Monday, a couple of months ago, I got into the car with Nina, who's the producer on this series, checking my levels again, pulled out into the traffic and went looking for someone we've been trying to talk to for the past 18 months.

[Nina Young]

Where are we going? What are we doing, Dan?

[Dan Box]

We're going to try and find William's birth mother, Carly. And the reason I want to talk to Carly is really just to let her know what we're doing and why we're doing it and to give her the chance to tell us what she thinks of what happened. And the reason to do that is because if it was my child, I would want someone to contact me before doing this.

[Nina Young]

Yeah.

[Dan Box]

But they're not an easy family to get hold of.

[Nina Young]

No. So what we're doing today is our last option, really, because we've tried contacting Carly through social media, we've tried contacting Carly on the phone, we've tried several phone numbers. So our last effort, because we really do want to make sure Carly is at least aware of this podcast, even if she doesn't want to speak to us. We're going to door knock.

[Dan Box]

Yeah, We've got three addresses and we're going to knock each of those houses and ask if she's there and ask if she wants to talk to us. And we've done this for Brendan as well, who's William's dad. You and me, driven out like this. And the first house we went to, do you remember, it had obviously been bought and sold and done up and every record of them living there had just been wiped clean.

[Nina Young]

Yeah.

[Dan Box]

And then the second house, it wasn't a house, it was Age unit in a block that had row after row after row of units. And we knocked doors and got nowhere. And then when we got back, I tried the strata agent and I said, is Brendan living there? And he had no record of Brendan ever being there. And then the third place was an apartment block with six units in it, and we knocked all the doors and no one there had heard of them either. So we weren't able to find Brendan.

[Nina Young]

Yeah.

[Dan Box]

Since this afternoon in the car with Nina, I've spoken to someone who said they would pass on my phone number to Brendan. And it's possible, Brendan, that you're listening to this, and if so, and you do want to talk, just give me a call. Another reason we want to talk to you, Brendan, and to Carly is that when you look at the disappearance of William Tool, there's one decision that is the start of everything that follows. That's the decision to take William off his biological parents and put him in foster care. So knowing what we know now, it's easy to say that that was a bad decision or it was the decision that if it hadn't happened, William wouldn't have disappeared. But that's different from knowing what was known at the time. And at the time it might not have been a bad. To understand if it was a bad decision, you have to go back to before, when William was reported missing on 12 September 2014, to the other time William went missing, this time when he was just a baby and when it was his birth parents who took him and hid him from the police. I'm Dan box and from news.com au this is witness William Tyrrell. Episode two looking for Carly. After trying to find Brendan, we did contact his mum, Natalie Collins. She's William's biological grandmother.

[Nina Young]

She's traditionally sort of been the spokesperson for the biological family.

[Dan Box]

Well, that was kind of what I hoped that she'd be up for talking, but it didn't work out that way. I spoke to her and she said, yep, I'm happy to do an interview. And then I called her back and she didn't answer. So I then I called her back a bit later and she agreed to do an interview, but at a certain time. And so I called her up, she heard my voice and just hung up and she hasn't answered the phone to me since. So then you called her?

[Nina Young]

Yeah, so then I called her.

[Natalie Collins]

Hello?

[Nina Young]

Hey, Natalie, how you doing?

[Natalie Collins]

Yeah, okay.

[Dan Box]

It was a phone conversation and the audio isn't great.

[Nina Young]

I'm recording, by the way. Gotta let you know every time, otherwise, you know, you get in trouble. Oh.

[Natalie Collins]

Hello.

[Nina Young]

Oh, sorry, I wasn't sure if you hung up on me.

[Natalie Collins]

No, no, no, it cut out.

[Nina Young]

Okay, good.

[Dan Box]

Listening to this interview, I think Nina sounds nervous.

[Nina Young]

I felt she was very emotional.

[Dan Box]

Nina and Natalie are speaking the day after news broke that the police are seeking to charge William's foster mother over his disappearance.

[Nina Young]

And so I was just a little bit worried going into it how she was going to take the conversation on whether it was a good time to have that conversation.

[Dan Box]

William's foster mother, who was in the house with him at the time he went missing, insists she had nothing to do with it. She's not as yet been charged. Listening to Nina's conversation, it's pretty clear what Natalie thinks.

[Natalie Collins]

The thing is that they shouldn't have taken the kids off them in the first place. And that's where it's all going to start.

[Dan Box]

Natalie says the authorities were wrong to take William away from his biological parents.

[Natalie Collins]

William was devoted to Brendan. I seen William, I think, when he was taken off them, and then that day that they pulled him upstairs in a pram, he jumped from the pram right into Brennan's arms.

[Dan Box]

William was about nine months old when he was taken from his birth parents. He was born on 26th June, 2011 at the Royal North Shore Hospital in Sydney. I don't know why, but Brendan's name is not on the birth certificate. That box is just left blank. And a court would later hear there was a history of drug use and of domestic violence between Brendan and Carly. Both of them have criminal records. Brendan's been arrested dozens of times and he's been in prison on a few occasions. Although the only dates I can find for that are after William went missing. In their conversation, Nina asks Natalie about the most recent search for William, when.

[Nina Young]

There was the search back in 2021. I read a quote from you that said you kind of didn't feel like there was any point in what they were doing because you already knew at that point that he was gone.

[Natalie Collins]

Have you ever been up there?

[Nina Young]

No, I haven't yet.

[Natalie Collins]

Yeah, well, you can't say that until you go up there. And then you'll. Then you'll see why you have to go to the house and actually see the house and then you'll understand why.

[Dan Box]

What did you think about Natalie telling you that you have to go to the road where William went missing to understand how she feels about it?

[Nina Young]

I didn't fully understand what she meant by that. I haven't been there yet. You've been there at least once.

[Dan Box]

I've been there a few times. Three, four times now.

[Nina Young]

And we are going to go soon. But did it give you some insight?

[Dan Box]

Yeah, I think Natalie's right. You do have to see that house. Because it's not until you see it that you realize it's a dead end street. It's dead quiet. There's no way you'd go there unless you had a reason to be on that street at that time. And it's when you see that that you realize the chance of a chance abduction, it just. It's almost impossible.

[Nina Young]

Yeah.

[Dan Box]

The only people who go there have a reason and then almost certainly someone sees them on the street. And I think Natalie is right in saying that you have to see the place to understand how she feels. And the way Natalie feels is angry.

[Natalie Collins]

It's killed me. Three years old, he just Vanishes from the face of the earth.

[Dan Box]

Angry, I think, at the damage done to her family after William was taken away from them.

[Natalie Collins]

Like, all this, all the shit that I have been through from day one. Like, Brendan, he lost his son. I lost my son. And I lost myself as well.

[Nina Young]

What do you mean by that? You've lost yourself?

[Natalie Collins]

Oh, I'm not going to talk to you anymore. It's a waste of time, you know? Like, what do you mean? If you were in my shoes, you wouldn't even ask that. It's all fucked up. All you reporters are the same. I don't. I haven't talked to a reporters for a long time. No, I understand, Christian. No, you're hounding me and I'm talking from my heart. No one. You haven't been in my shoes. Like, I'm sick of it. I'm sick to death of it. Like, this has been my life for 10, 10 years. My son has been in freaking jail. He's been homeless. His buddy hit rock bottom. Rock bottom after 10 years. You wouldn't believe what that child's been through or what I've been through with him. And who cares about that? No one. And I've done it on my own, and I'm still doing it.

[Nina Young]

Well, I don't want to hound you, Natalie, and I don't want to pretend that I do know what you're going through. That's why I'm asking.

[Natalie Collins]

Like, you reporters are all the same. Like Daily Mail shit. It's all crap. You know, you gotta be honest and help someone. You don't fucking put crap on there. Anyway, I don't want this recorded. I'm. I'm done.

[Nina Young]

Okay, I'll stop recording.

[Dan Box]

I wanted to ask you, how did you feel. How do you feel about us using that tape of that conversation in this series?

[Nina Young]

Yeah, look, I'm not comfortable. I mean, I am. It's hard, isn't it? I can't even answer that question properly. I guess the part of me that will be uncomfortable with that running is just mostly kind of ego, I think.

[Dan Box]

Why?

[Nina Young]

Because I really don't like to push people when they're not comfortable. I like to put their safety and their emotional safety first. So to have her respond really negatively to something I said, I don't feel good about that at all. You know, I felt awful that happened.

[Dan Box]

Do you understand why I wanted to use it?

[Nina Young]

Yeah. I mean, I think so. You tell me why you want to use it.

[Dan Box]

I want to use it because it puts you on the spot. And I Know that. And I appreciate that's hard. But the other thing it does is it demonstrates the sheer emotion and the sheer trauma that those close to William have gone through and are still going through now as a result of him going missing and there being no resolution of what happened to him.

[Nina Young]

Yeah.

[Dan Box]

And I think that is important, that in this case, that has become headlines and news specials and social media chatter. And at the heart of it, there is absolute grief and no, nothing we can say, you and me can describe that better than that tape of Natalie getting upset and getting angry.

[Nina Young]

There's no way. I understand. I absolutely don't understand. And I'm actually. I'm fine with her getting angry at me. I didn't feel angry at her for getting angry at me, because I think if we can try and put ourselves in her shoes a little bit. They've really been quite powerless throughout this situation, right? They've. Yeah, they've been powerless since losing their child to the foster system.

[Dan Box]

Yeah.

[Nina Young]

And they were powerless through the police investigation. They were pretty powerless through the media reporting. When we weren't allowed to say who they were again, the police and the government got in the way and sort of said, this is what can be said. This can't be said. So they've been censored, sort of from being able to say what they want. So I think to be that powerless and then to have yet another journalist calling you, I don't know. At such a low point, I can get why she's angry, and I think that's fair.

[Dan Box]

After that first phone call, Nina sent Natalie a text message just saying sorry. And she didn't hear back and didn't talk to Natalie again. But another producer, Emily, tried calling instead.

[Emily Pigeon]

Okay, you can still hear me?

[Natalie Collins]

Yep.

[Emily Pigeon]

Perfect. And so you're happy for the phone call to be recorded?

[Natalie Collins]

Yep.

[Emily Pigeon]

Yep. Wonderful. So we were just talking.

[Dan Box]

The conversation had a similar start. They're talking about the impact of William's loss.

[Natalie Collins]

What it's done to my family from day one has stuffed all of us up. And I lost my son and I lost myself on the way.

[Emily Pigeon]

I'm so sorry to hear Natalie. It must be absolutely awful.

[Natalie Collins]

How would you deal with it if it was your son or your daughter?

[Emily Pigeon]

I can't even imagine.

[Natalie Collins]

Ten years is a long time, you know, ten years of my life that no one should really have to go through.

[Emily Pigeon]

How are you going?

[Natalie Collins]

Look like it's a long story, this bloody story, you know, like it's a long, drawn out, sad story. But the thing is that these dogs People, they failed to do their job properly. Because this shouldn't happen these days with foster care children. Like, William was only a little baby, three years old, he vanished from the face of the earth.

[Nina Young]

Okay, so we're pulling up shortly to the first address. And what's your plan?

[Dan Box]

Look, honestly, I don't think we overthink it. Like, we are here to try and talk to Carly, to tell her what we're doing and why we're doing it, and just be as straightforward and as honest as possible with her.

[Nina Young]

What we're not gonna do is run up and shove a microphone at her face. No, if you walked up to my house with a microphone recording to talk.

[Dan Box]

About your missing child, I wouldn't talk to you. Yeah, fair enough.

[Nina Young]

But if it gets hostile, do you want me to get out and record or no?

[Dan Box]

Oh, so if it gets hostile, you're gonna be sitting inside the car?

[Nina Young]

No, I'm gonna be standing by recording it.

[Dan Box]

I don't think it's gonna get hostile.

[Nina Young]

Is this it?

[Dan Box]

Yeah, it is. Are you going to stay in the car?

[Nina Young]

What would you prefer I do?

[Dan Box]

Stay in the car. I think it's fairer on Carly. What cannot have felt fair on Carly was the way having William taken from her meant other people, like case workers or the state government, Department of Family and Community Services effectively passed judgment on her as a mother. William's foster placement is recorded in hundreds of pages of documents. And one of these notes that at the time William was taken, his birth parents, quote, maintained a high level of denial regarding domestic violence in their relationship. The documents also say that Carly had, quote, unresolved attachment needs affecting her parenting capacity and looked to her children for what the documents call developmentally inappropriate care and comfort. But nowhere in any of those documents that I've seen can you see what Carly has to say about that. I think that's the wrong house. Okay, so there was no one there. And I spoke to the neighbor, and the neighbor said, it's not a Carly who lives there, but it is a Tyrol.

[Nina Young]

Okay.

[Dan Box]

She looked a little bit circumspect.

[Nina Young]

Yeah, because you're just a strange man in the middle of a day.

[Dan Box]

Probably not the first strange reporter who's turned up at their house either over the years. But no. So I think we try. Okay, the next address.

[Nina Young]

Onwards to house, too.

[Dan Box]

I'll be honest, it probably wasn't until I went to knock on the door that I realized how actually faintly sick I feel doing that.

[Nina Young]

Talk me through it.

[Dan Box]

Oh, it's just. It's just that, you know, if it is the right person, you just know it's going to be unpleasant for them.

[Nina Young]

Yeah, yeah. This is probably the most confronting way you'd have to do it.

[Dan Box]

So I left a letter there. Yeah, we'll see. All right, what's the next address? One thing that makes a decision to take William off Carly and into care seem more open to question is that Carly had other children who stayed with her. And as far as I know, they're still with her. Carly was also pregnant when William was taken and has had other children since. It feels like each time she has a child, the Daily Mail writes articles based on Facebook photos. And in those photos, the family looked happy. Natalie, William's biological grandmother, says that was not the case for William with his foster parents.

[Natalie Collins]

Like when William was in their care. Black life, skinny, no shoes on. You know, we used to have supervised visits and my son was too scared to love his children because he knew if they go home, they're going to be in trouble for that. How does that. How does that work out?

[Dan Box]

Natalie is really critical of William's foster parents and particularly critical of his foster mother.

[Natalie Collins]

Then she stopped everything. Not allowed to give them lollies, not allowed to give them kinder surprises, not allowed to give them the food that we were bringing. She packed the lunches. Dry pasta. No, in costume clothes, all the time, barking her orders. You know.

[Dan Box]

A lot of what Natalie says about William's foster parents we're not going to repeat here, because what's not certain is whether what she's saying is fair or accurate. Some of what she says is right, like how William was encouraged to call his birth parents by their first names, Brendan and Carlyle. But read through the records of William's foster care and you see that once William started using first names, it was his caseworkers who supported this, not his foster parents. And the idea behind it was to help William adjust to his foster family. At other times, Natalie's version of what happened contrasts completely to conversations I've had with other people or with documents from the time.

[Natalie Collins]

In their eyes, it was like they don't have a mother and father. You know, you go and you call them Brendan and Carly. You don't call them Mum and Dad because they're not your mum and dad. We are like, who does all that?

[Dan Box]

Every visit by William's caseworker is documented saying how William seemed, what he was wearing, his general health, the fact he liked his daycare, how he and his caseworker were playing together, building a train set as he grows up. The documents record that William starts going to soccer training on a Monday and dance class on a Friday. His placement with his foster parents is described as being very stable. And after 18 months, the documents record that William started saying his foster parents are his parents.

[Natalie Collins]

So there's a lot to answer for.

[Dan Box]

Natalie keeps coming back to the allegation that William was mistreated by his foster parents, but I haven't found any real evidence of that in the files.

[Natalie Collins]

Well, how did William get a black eye?

[Dan Box]

There is a record in the files of William getting a black eye. In fact, there's pages about it. It was in July 2014, just after his third birthday.

[Natalie Collins]

Oh, he fell off my lap. No, it was a black eye.

[Dan Box]

The foster records say William fell on a coffee table while crawling on his foster mother's lap.

[Natalie Collins]

You don't get a black hia from falling from a knee.

[Dan Box]

And speaking as a dad of three, kids do pick up injuries that way. They fall off your lap or run into tables or trip downstairs. The files show the foster mother reported this fall to William's caseworker the next morning and sent through some photographs of the bruising. She also took him to the Royal North Shore Hospital. The doctors noted a hematoma, which is a pool of blood under the skin and swelling to his cheek. There was no sign of concussion. He didn't need an X ray, and William was discharged a week later. The caseworker recorded the bruise was going down and that William was not in obvious pain or distressed. But two months later, on the day that William goes missing, his foster father told police that a week before, William had fallen backwards off a stool and struggled to get back up. And those records about William have since been used online and in the mainstream media as reasons to say he wasn't okay in the care of his foster parents.

[Natalie Collins]

There was heaps of reasons. You know, like, William was never sick. William was always happy. And like, the last time I think Brendan seen him was in August, and he was crying and. And screaming. He didn't want to go back. Not long after that, he vanished from the face of the earth. Now, you tell me that one. You just like that happened, and then all of a sudden, three days or four days later, the little boy's gone.

[Nina Young]

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[Dan Box]

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[Nina Young]

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[Dan Box]

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[Dan Box]

In the years after William was taken from them, other documents show support workers saying Brendan and Carly go to huge lengths to do well in their parenting. Carly is quoted as saying her entire life is turned towards having the children return to their care. Brendan coped with the stress of losing William partly by working long hours, six days a week, the documents say. They say he took part in a course called Choosing Change, which is for men who've been violent or abusive. But Brendan's said to have missed a couple of the sessions and not really participated in the group discussions. So the course organizer recommended that he start the course again.

[Emily Pigeon]

Has William's father, have you spoken to him?

[Natalie Collins]

Oh, yes, I have.

[Emily Pigeon]

How does he feel about it all?

[Natalie Collins]

Well, I don't even know. He's trying to get himself, like he's getting better, do you know what I mean? Like, but he's got a lot of support where he. So, you know, we talk about it and you know, like, I feel bad for my son. Like I just, you know, look at his life. His life has been turned upside down since that poor little boy disappeared. He's still in rehab. You know, he knocked himself around for quite a long time, you know, punishing himself and it really wasn't his fault. He was a good dad, he was a good provider. He loves his kids, you know, so. And you know, he's worked hard to get where he is today.

[Nina Young]

How long has it been since you've done our door knock?

[Dan Box]

Less than a year. But the last time I did the door knock, no one answered. Last time I did a door knock for a family whose child had been murdered or gone missing and actually got hold of them, it was two or three years now. And a lot of people hate doing it, but I've never minded doing it as long as you are sufficiently respectful and sufficiently apologetic. And it doesn't always go well, but it goes well more often than you'd think it would. All right, this is the second address. All right, if she does want to talk, I'll give you a shout, okay?

[Nina Young]

Okay, sure.

[Dan Box]

A week after their first conversation, Emily, the producer, called William's biological grandmother again.

[Emily Pigeon]

Okay. Can you hear me, Natalie?

[Natalie Collins]

Yep.

[Emily Pigeon]

Amazing. And you're happy for me to record our chat?

[Natalie Collins]

Yep.

[Emily Pigeon]

Perfect.

[Dan Box]

This time, the target of Natalie's criticism isn't only William's foster mother. It's also Carly, who's in Natalie's sights.

[Emily Pigeon]

I'd love to learn a little bit more about Brendan and Carly's relationship. How did they first meet?

[Natalie Collins]

I don't even know. Like, that was. That was probably the worst thing he ever did in his life is meet her.

[Emily Pigeon]

You weren't that fond of her.

[Natalie Collins]

No, she was. She had a lot of problems, a lot of issues, that girl.

[Emily Pigeon]

Do you know how long they were together before they had William?

[Natalie Collins]

Oh, they've been together for probably three years or something. They were together for a long time, but she shouldn't have ever had kids at Beatty either. That's my opinion as well.

[Emily Pigeon]

So it was a bit of a turbulent relationship, would you say?

[Natalie Collins]

It was a bit of, like. Well, Brendan was always doing the right thing, you know, going to work, paying the bills. And me and my daughter had to go down there, like, twice a week to make sure he could at least come in the door and have a shower, have dinner. And then after we left, then they started, and then the people would call the police in. It was like, well, he's got to go, you know? But nothing. Nothing major. I mean, I grew up in that sort of environment, too. And no one rang and said my mother and father were fighting and blah, blah, blah.

[Emily Pigeon]

How did it feel when Brendan Carly's photos were out in the media and their names were used?

[Natalie Collins]

Yeah, terrible.

[Emily Pigeon]

And the whole time, the foster parents, their identities were all hidden?

[Natalie Collins]

Yeah, terrible. Freedom wasn't as bad as what everyone thought. And, you know, I was a decent mum. I wasn't, you know, like a Mount Jewett mum. I was a decent mum. Like. You think he had a derogatory mother? No, he didn't. He had a good up, Brittany. He was a good, you know, kid, but met the wrong person.

[Dan Box]

Like, with what Natalie says about William's foster mother, some of the things she says about Carly we're not repeating here because we're not able to say they're right. Or they contrast with the evidence we've got from elsewhere. And all you're left with is one person's opinion on another. In this case, Brendan's mum's opinion on Carly as a mother. And that's another reason to want to talk to Carly herself. All right, Nothing again. No one there. Couple of cars in the driveway, a couple of motorbikes. One of them's being worked on, so I thought someone might be there, but no answer at all. So I left a letter under the door.

[Nina Young]

Okay.

[Dan Box]

Driving away from the second house, I don't doubt Carly wanted to be a good mum. Among the documents from William's time in foster care is one saying that Carly told one caseworker she only agreed to having William in long term care so that she and Brendan could focus on parenting their remaining children.

[Emily Pigeon]

Well, what do you remember about William as a little baby?

[Natalie Collins]

Oh, he was always happy. He was never sick. Like always happy, you know, happy, happy baby, healthy. Like we would go there for one hour supervised visits, sat down and had a picnic and bought like King Surprises and lollipops and stuff. But like we're allowed to have that. All this crap happened. So with William, like every time he seen Brendan, he just loved him. And screaming and crying to go home.

[Dan Box]

Okay, so there are different versions of these contact visits. There's Natalie Collins version and then there's the written version in the documents of William's time in foster care. The biological parents were allowed six of these contact visits a year for one hour each. Natalie describes William screaming and crying when he had to leave them. But the written records from the time say there were no observed signs of distress or sadness when William separated from his parents. Those words appear in the records twice for different visits. There are records saying that William became anxious or hyperactive or aggressive, slapping and punching his foster carers. He was described as defiant or having oppositional behavior and he had nightmares. But all of this seems to happen mostly just after these contact visits. And reading through it seems more of a response to the difficulty of meeting different sets of parents. You find yourself starting to imagine what was going through a three year old's mind. On the morning of their last contact visit. Williams recorded as saying he didn't want to go, but he got excited when told. It was at Chipmunks, which is a play centre with a huge maze with different levels and nets and is full of obstacles. It would be the last time William saw his birth parents, Carly and Brendan. Ten days later, William disappeared.

[Emily Pigeon]

And so Carly and Brendan don't have Any contact now?

[Natalie Collins]

Oh, no.

[Emily Pigeon]

Do you mind me asking, when did their relationship end?

[Natalie Collins]

The day that William went missing.

[Emily Pigeon]

That very day?

[Natalie Collins]

Yep. That was the end of it.

[Emily Pigeon]

Was William's disappearance a contributor to that?

[Natalie Collins]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Emily Pigeon]

If William didn't go missing, do you think Brendan and Carly might still be together today?

[Natalie Collins]

Oh, no, I think so.

[Emily Pigeon]

You don't think so or you don't? Hope so.

[Natalie Collins]

I don't think so.

[Emily Pigeon]

Do you know roughly how old Brendan and Carly were when they met?

[Natalie Collins]

I think Carly was only like, 17 or something, and Brendan was 89, 20, about 22 or something. Only young.

[Emily Pigeon]

Very young, silly.

[Natalie Collins]

You can't change some people, you know. But I'm just worried about my kids, you know.

[Emily Pigeon]

What's your biggest worry about them?

[Natalie Collins]

I'm always worried about them.

[Emily Pigeon]

Yeah. It's a mother's instinct. Worry about your kids.

[Natalie Collins]

Yeah, that's right.

[Dan Box]

The more I look at everything that's happened since William's disappearance, so much of it seems to come down to different kinds of judgment on motherhood. Who's a good parent and particularly who is a good mother. For Carly, having the state government come in and take her child away must have felt like someone saying, you're not a good enough mother. And as a parent, that feels wrong. I mean, who really gets to make decisions about your kids? Which might explain why in the months before William went missing, after his biological family first learned that the government was planning to take him, Brendan and Carly and Natalie, they took William and they hid.

[Natalie Collins]

I hid them for three months after I knew they were going to take William.

[Emily Pigeon]

Oh, you're talking about before William went into foster care. When? Yeah, yeah, when Brendan took William.

[Natalie Collins]

Yeah, like it was me, it wasn't him. So I hit them for three months and then they got caught.

[Dan Box]

Carly, Brendan and William lived with Natalie for weeks during this time. And Natalie says she arranged it.

[Natalie Collins]

I arranged it all.

[Emily Pigeon]

You're the mastermind.

[Natalie Collins]

Yeah, that's right.

[Emily Pigeon]

And so you were saying, I should.

[Natalie Collins]

Have taken him myself. I should have just got, like, took him myself in and no one would have been able to take him off me. That's what I should have done.

[Dan Box]

This was in February 2012, when the state government Department of Family and Community Services, which is also known as fax, asked police to help find William. So a police sergeant went to Carly's address and there was no one there. The police went to another address they had for William's biological grandmother. But the person who answered the door said they didn't know either Carly or the grandmother. So a caseworker called four different telephone numbers they had on file for the family and all of them were disconnected. They called a fifth, but incoming calls were restricted. Back in the car with Nina. We're still involved in our own search.

[Nina Young]

House number three is the one I think is most likely okay to be her house currently.

[Dan Box]

Why do you think that?

[Nina Young]

Because we are aware that other journalists have been at this property in the last year and have seen her there.

[Dan Box]

And how did that go?

[Nina Young]

Not well. Not well.

[Dan Box]

How well?

[Nina Young]

Well, there is photos of that journalist being pushed away from the house by friends or relatives.

[Dan Box]

As the days passed and William stayed hidden with his family, the police kept trying different addresses. You had plainclothes detectives canvassing the neighbours, just knocking on doors. The police tried the extended family. A nurse arrived for a regular appointment with Carlyle, but no one answered. Here we are.

[Nina Young]

Is it number eight?

[Dan Box]

I'm glad you told me that thing about how badly it went last time. Right?

[Nina Young]

Yeah.

[Dan Box]

Just so you can see the door.

[Nina Young]

Yeah. Cuz if they do come out and shove you, I am going to get out of the car. Are you good?

[Dan Box]

Yeah.

[Nina Young]

Okay.

[Dan Box]

William was officially listed as a missing person a month later. The police did catch up with his biological father, Brendan.

[Natalie Collins]

I remember the day like he's come to me. He's like, it's all over now, Mom. They arrested him and arrested both of them actually took William away. And William was screaming and crying.

[Emily Pigeon]

Were you there the moment that the police came and arrested Brendan and Carly?

[Natalie Collins]

No, I was at work.

[Emily Pigeon]

What was it like going to work that morning? You've got your grandkids and Brendan and Carly in the. In the granny flat out the back. And then you come home and it. And your whole life's been uprooted.

[Natalie Collins]

The sad thing is the story is very sad from the beginning to the end, you know.

[Dan Box]

After baby William was found being hidden by his birth parents, he was taken to hospital and found to be medically. Well, the next day, 16th March 2012, William was placed with authorized carers. And A year later, April 2013, a court ordered William to remain in care, technically under the parental responsibility of a government minister until he turned 18. Meaning that court and the state government did not anticipate William ever returning to Carly and Brendan. And there are two ways of looking at that decision. What we know now that he would disappear again for good this time. And what was known then? No answer. And all the curtains are drawn. I looked over the back fence and the garden's pretty overgrown. But there are some kids toys like there's a paddling pool hanging over the back deck and you can see through one of the windows that the kitchen's got stuff in it. So someone is living there.

[Nina Young]

Yeah.

[Dan Box]

So I left a letter and hopefully she'll call.

[Nina Young]

That was our last house.

[Dan Box]

Yeah.

[Nina Young]

Right. Now.

[Dan Box]

Nina and I never do manage to speak to Carly. And, Carly, if you're listening and you do want to talk, please do contact us. But we do have some idea of how she feels about what has happened to William and over the past decade. The year after he disappeared in 2015, Carly gave an interview to the Seven Network that was broadcast on TV. What sort of mum did you think you would be?

[Natalie Collins]

Um, like a nurturing mum. A caring, loving. Yeah, a good mum. No one knows their baby better than the mum.

[Dan Box]

Okay, so anyone that's watching this, anyone.

[Natalie Collins]

That'S gonna see you, what do you say to them?

[Dan Box]

What can we do?

[Emily Pigeon]

Um.

[Dan Box]

Psst.

[Nina Young]

Don't hurt him. Just let him come home.

[Dan Box]

The more I learn about this, the more I think we actually can't separate what we know now about the decision to take William from his biological parents. From what was known at the time, there is only the knowledge that William did go missing and is still missing. Since recording this episode, I've spoken again to Natalie, William's biological grandmother, and asked her to pass my number on to Brendan, her son. And I was talking to Natalie about this decision to take William away from his birth parents. I told her how even some of the people who played a role in what happened still ask themselves if it was the right decision. One of those was one of the officials who was sent to take William away from Carly, who was there at the moment. William was taken from one family before being given to another. He doesn't want to be identified. So these. These are his words, but not his voice.

[Anonymous Official]

Looking back, it was hard. But we take kids off, you know, families all the time. You do it, you know, it's just. It. It is part of the job. But, you know, and ironically, this is the thing I get upset about is. Sorry, mate.

[Dan Box]

No, it's all right.

[Anonymous Official]

Mm. Yeah, it's. We took William off Carly to protect him.

[Dan Box]

Yeah.

[Anonymous Official]

And, well, no one knows what happened. I mean, we've all got stories and thoughts, but I thought, how fucking ironic is that? You know, facts. And we took him off Carly, off the mother. Cause, you know, just a shit family. You know them, you've probably met them, I'm assuming, you know, and you go, you take William, take this baby defenceless, poor little baby, off a family Cause you've decided, or the government's decided the family is too shit to look after the child, and then this happens.

[Dan Box]

Yeah.

[Anonymous Official]

You know, I can still see myself walking into that bloody unit. It's just up the stairs and turn left and you go in. Yeah.

[Dan Box]

And what did you see when you got in there?

[Anonymous Official]

Oh, it's just a. Well, it's just a little Housing Commission unit. And there was shit everywhere and kids toys everywhere. And that was just. Yeah, and there was Wigliam on the floor and Carly just abusing the shit out of us.

[Dan Box]

Carly doing what? Sorry?

[Anonymous Official]

Oh, just abusing us. Just, you know. Cause we were there to take the kid.

[Dan Box]

And I'm assuming you'd been told by fax or whoever passed that instruction to you that he's in danger.

[Anonymous Official]

Well, we. I knew. I knew the family. I knew the Tyrrell family. And it was a shit environment for William to be in. There's no doubt in the world, but ironically, it's just. Okay. I thought we were all protecting him.

[Dan Box]

Yeah.

[Anonymous Official]

I just think, fuck. Did. Did we do the right thing? Did we? But you just shake your head sometimes. You go, you know, would he still be alive? Maybe. I don't. You don't know.

[Dan Box]

You don't know and you can't say. But you're. You're only human if you're asking the question.

[Anonymous Official]

Well, exactly right. You go, well, I don't know if he'd be alive, but there's a chance he might. I just think we thought we were all doing the right thing. Well, we knew. Sorry, I shouldn't say we thought we knew we were doing the right thing because of the situation in the family. So the family was very ordinary. The family is very, very ordinary. And Fax thought so, too. But it's just the irony of it that we took him to protect him because we thought he needed protecting. And this is what happened.

[Dan Box]

I've not. I've obviously not been in your position, and I haven't seen a fraction of the things that you would have seen in your career. And I know that this probably isn't the worst of it, but that stuff isn't ever gonna leave you or any of the people who were there that day, is it?

[Anonymous Official]

Well, no, not really, but it is a thing. You go, because of all the other shit we saw, like the deceased and the fatals and the kids and the SIDS deaths and all the rest of it, you know, they're gone. They're in the back of my head. And another ironic thing, you know, they're in my head, they're squared away. They're like, I'm fine with all of it. They visit occasionally, but 99% of the time I'm fine. Doesn't affect me day to day. Yeah, but William. William does because it keeps coming back.

[Dan Box]

It keeps coming back. He says, because of what would end up happening to William.

[Anonymous Official]

Yeah, it's just. It's just shit. I mean, someone knows more than one person knows the actual truth of what happened. 100%. Because William didn't walk away a hundred miles. He didn't get, you know, either it was in a car or whatever it is, fucking. Someone knows what happened to William.

[Dan Box]

Today, police suspect the person who knows what happened to William is his foster mother. She insists on her innocence. So next time on Witness, we look at William's foster family. If you know anything about William's disappearance, please contact Crime Stoppers. There's a number in the show notes for this series, but if there's anything you want to tell us, you can email witness.com au or. I'm on social media and it can be completely confidential. A lot of people have been involved in making this series. Among them, the executive producer is Nina Young. The sound design was by Tiffany Dimac. The producers have been Emily Pigeon, Nicholas Adams Jasbar and Phoebe Zukowski Wallace. Voice acting on this episode by Marcus Obern. Research by Aidan Patrick. Music by Rory O'Connor. Our lawyer is Stephen Coombs and the editor at news.com au is Kerry Warren. I'm Dan Bo.

[Marcus Obern]

Did you know that there's more than 2,000 stocks listed on the Australian Stock exchange, most of which you've never heard of, most of which are actually right at the cutting edge of what's going to drive our economy into the future. They're in mining, searching for the battery metals to power us into the future. Medical companies researching the next big breakthrough to make us healthy into the future. Or tech companies. Companies, brilliant young Australian entrepreneurs seeking the next big tech unicorn. Well, if you want to know about them, search Stockhead. Stockhead is focused on the small. You never know you could find the next big thing. Stockhead.com.

[Gary Jubilant]

Are you ready to get an inside look at crime from someone who has investigated some of Australia's worst crimes?

[Dan Box]

It was like Aladdin's Cove. The luminol found bloodied footprints and bloodied handprints on a wall. So it's just like a horror movie.

[Gary Jubilant]

Former homicide detective Gary Jubilant sits down with cops, crims, addicts, victims, small time cheats and big town lawyers as they tell their incredible stories.

[Marcus Obern]

My house got raided. Next thing you know, I got bail refused. Next thing you know, I'm on a truck to Parkleigh Prison.

[Gary Jubilant]

Listen to I Catch Killers early and ad Free on Crymax plus on Apple podcasts today or wherever you get your podcasts.