Something Wicked | 9

Summary

Witness: William Tyrrell – Episode 9: Something Wicked

Host: Dan Box
Producer: Nina Young
Release Date: December 1, 2024
Platform: news.com.au

---

Introduction

In the ninth episode of Witness: William Tyrrell, host Dan Box delves deep into the perplexing case of three-year-old William Tyrrell, who vanished from his home in Kendall, New South Wales, on September 12, 2014. A decade later, William remains missing, and suspicions continue to swirl around several individuals, with the foster mother and law enforcement under intense scrutiny. This episode examines the intricate web of investigations, allegations of police misconduct, and the unwavering quest for answers by William’s family.

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Key Figures and Suspects

Frank Abbott: A Central Figure

Frank Abbott emerges as a primary suspect in William's disappearance. Described by neighbors as a reclusive hoarder with a troubling past, Frank has a history of criminal activities, including child sexual abuse. His proximity to William's last known location and alleged suspicious behavior have made him a focal point of the investigation.

• Gail Veronica (William's foster mother) shares her early impressions of Frank:

  "When I really got to know Frank was in that nine months... He doesn't look after himself. He doesn't even have a bath. But you can have an intelligent conversation with him."
  (00:03)

Police Conduct and Gary Jubilin’s Controversial Role

Gary Jubilin, the lead detective on the Tyrrell case, has been a contentious figure. Removed from the investigation amid allegations of misconduct, his ousting has cast a shadow over the ongoing search for William.

• Dan Box details Jubilin’s removal:

  "The police believe his foster mother knows something. She denies it. Only one of them can be telling the truth."
  (00:48)

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Investigation and Inquest Issues

Simultaneous Processes Causing Confusion

A significant issue highlighted is the overlapping of the police investigation with the inquest into William’s disappearance. Typically, an inquest follows the exhaustion of police leads, but in this case, both are proceeding concurrently, leading to potential conflicts and delays.

• Dan Box reflects on the confusion:

  "When every moment spent looking at the wrong person is a moment not spent looking for the right person."
  (05:53)

Inquest Dynamics and Frank’s Involvement

Frank Abbott's participation in the inquest exacerbates the complications. Being able to access incriminating evidence while still under investigation raises questions about the integrity and process of the inquest.

• Nina Young explains:

  "Frank is able to take part... He's listening to what people are saying about him and he's even able to question the witnesses."
  (24:58)

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Notable Interactions and Evidence

Phone Conversations: Frank and Pastor Martin

The podcast features transcripts of phone calls between Frank Abbott and Pastor Martin Parish, revealing Frank’s awareness of the inquest’s proceedings and his access to critical evidence.

• Frank Abbott discusses evidence:

  "I didn't do anything wrong... This doesn't involve me in any way."
  (20:37)

Witness Statements and Contradictions

Discrepancies emerge between witness statements and official accounts, particularly concerning Frank’s alibi and involvement during the time William went missing.

• Gail Veronica expresses doubt:

  "I don't think he was involved... He could hardly friggin walk."
  (06:08)

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Family’s Struggle and Distrust in Authorities

William’s foster mother, Gail Veronica, vocalizes her frustration and loss of trust in the police force. She criticizes the handling of the investigation and the apparent shift in focus away from Frank Abbott.

• Gail Veronica on police handling:

  "It's outrageous... Nobody within that police organization is fighting for William."
  (41:10)

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Police Misconduct and Its Impact

The episode also touches upon broader issues within the New South Wales Police Force, including cases of misconduct and the suppression of information, which have further eroded public trust.

• Nina Young reports on senior police charges:

  "Pete, a senior member of the state's police executive, has been charged with high-range drink driving..."
  (44:29)

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Ongoing Investigation and Future Prospects

As the inquest continues without conclusive findings, the investigation faces significant hurdles, including changes in police leadership and the potential sidelining of key suspects.

• Dan Box summarizes the current state:

  "The inquest doesn’t come to an end as expected. Instead, it's adjourned again for months."
  (39:39)

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Conclusion

Episode 9 of Witness: William Tyrrell paints a grim picture of a case mired in suspicion, police misconduct, and bureaucratic delays. With no closure in sight for William’s family, the community remains desperate for answers. The intertwining of personal testimonies, official proceedings, and the relentless pursuit of truth underscores the persistent agony surrounding William’s disappearance.

---

Key Quotes

• Gail Veronica:

  "I really think Frank was a pervert."
  (00:03)

• Dan Box:

  "If William matters, then it matters that we look at the investigation that so far hasn't found him and keep asking why and what went right and what went wrong."
  (08:38)

• Frank Abbott:

  "I'll tell you about it when you come down."
  (24:47)

• Martin Parish:

  "Nobody, nobody within that police organization is fighting for William."
  (41:10)

---

This episode underscores the complexities and frustrations that families endure in unresolved cases, spotlighting systemic issues within investigative processes and the profound human impact of prolonged uncertainty.

Transcript

[Gail]

Oh, Frank. I really don't think he had anything to do with me. Frank has lived around this area since the 80s. He was always a figure in Johns River. He lived on the highway and he's a hoarder. He's got heaps of junk. He hung around the shop, he was always hanging around the bus stop. He was dirty. So we just stayed away from him as teenage girls and I got to know him. He gave me the creeps and I always thought he was a pervert.

[Dan Box]

So to recap, the lead detective, Gary Jubilin, has been taken off the William Tyrrell investigation. It feels like very few people in the cops or the wider justice want anything to do with Gary at this point. Someone in the police is leaking to the media, saying more than 10 detectives from the homicide squad have made complaints about Gary and claiming that he's being investigated for alleged bullying and falsifying affidavits, which he didn't do.

[Gail]

When I really got to know Frank was in that nine months. I actually lived in John's River. A couple of times. I caught him in places where he shouldn't have been, like squatting down behind my parked car at, you know, 11 o'clock at night. How would I describe him? Dirty, filthy. He doesn't look after himself. He doesn't even have a bath. But you can have an intelligent conversation with him.

[Dan Box]

Under Gary, the police strike force had been focused on a neighbor called Paul Savage. But Gary himself is now under investigation and will soon be charged with criminally recording four conversations with Paul without permission using his mobile phone. Gary won't be coming back to the homicide squad and without him, the investigation into William's disappearance will turn away from Paul Savage, looking instead at other potential suspects.

[Gail]

I first heard about Frank living in a caravan at Moorland and he used to have sex with a calf.

[Dan Box]

That's sex with a calf, in case you missed it.

[Gail]

Used to have a calf tied up outside. That was the rumors.

[Dan Box]

Frank was definitely bad. A court heard he had a long criminal history, including firearms offenses and escaping from custody.

[Gail]

And the rumors, you know, don't ever talk to Frank Abbott.

[Dan Box]

He'd been found not guilty of other charges, including indecent assault and murdering a teenage girl.

[Gail]

He killed his wife.

[Dan Box]

Frank didn't kill his wife. She died of natural causes.

[Gail]

He's a child molester.

[Dan Box]

That one's true, though. Frank is currently doing time for child sexual abuse.

[Gail]

I seen Frank there and it was in that few days after William went missing, because we were all talking about it.

[Dan Box]

This woman, Gail Veronica was Frank's neighbor. He did work on her property which is a short drive from where William was reported missing on the mid north coast of New South Wales.

[Gail]

You know he always done a good job.

[Dan Box]

Gail says she saw Frank standing on the highway near Kendall in the days after William went missing.

[Gail]

I seen old Frank standing there and he could hardly walk.

[Dan Box]

Frank was elderly, Gail says he had.

[Gail]

Trouble walking and I debated whether to pick him up but the last time I picked him up he friggin stunk. I didn't want to stop and put him in the car.

[Dan Box]

Frank also had an indirect connection to the house in Kendall where William was staying. He knew another tradesman, a man called Jeff Owen, who called the house that morning about some work. And we've discovered Frank himself had been employed by the owner of the subdivision on which that house and the road outside it were built. And Frank likely knew the property before William went missing.

[Gail]

But you know what Dan? I always thought Frank was a pervert. He liked girls. But now when I think of it, all the little boys he used to have hanging around him all the time.

[Dan Box]

Gail says there was this one boy in particular who was quite young.

[Gail]

Oh, he was only. Oh, I don't think he was even going to school because Frant used to get him ready and put him on the bus when he started school.

[Dan Box]

So maybe it's not surprising with Gary suddenly gone and the inquest he helped set in motion now ready to start within weeks that those people wanting to distance themselves from Gary would start looking elsewhere.

[Gail]

But nothing was ever proved.

[Dan Box]

Did you know Frank after William went missing?

[Gail]

No.

[Dan Box]

He didn't?

[Nina]

No.

[Dan Box]

So you never spoke to him after that?

[Gail]

No, no, I only seen him that once that day on the highway.

[Dan Box]

What makes you think he wasn't involved in what happened to William?

[Gail]

Um, I'm really doubting myself now Dan, after since I've contacted you. You know, maybe Frank just wanted everyone to think that girls were his sickness. Why? I don't think he was involved because he had a job to friggin walk. That day I seen him on the highway, he had a job to walk. He could hardly friggin walk. Oh, I don't know. Yeah, I'm doubting my. I'm doubting my little.

[Dan Box]

Look, I've seen no evidence that suggests he's involved, but he certainly sounds creepy. I'm Dan box and from news.com au this is witness William Tyrrell. Episode 9 Something Wicked at this point it's easy to lose focus and concentrate on people like Bill Spedding who successfully sued the state government after his life was unfairly turned upside down. And Paul Savage, who we talked about in the last episode, and Gary Jublin and David Laidlaw, who would take over the investigation after Gary is taken off it. And to forget about the person at the center of this whole thing, William Tyrrell, the little boy who'd been taken from one set of parents as a baby and given to another, and who grew up to love riding his bicycle, playing Daddy Tiger and wearing his Spider man suit. I'm just saying you can be distracted and that matters. Especially if you're one of the detectives whose job it is to find out what happened to William. When every moment spent looking at the wrong person is a moment not spent looking for the right person. And no, I don't pretend to really know what it's like to be a homicide detective. And I never knew William Tyrrell. I have no claim to any special knowledge of him and don't pretend to be able to tell his story. But I do have a three year old daughter and I know how much she fills our lives with joy and laughter and sometimes tantrums. So that helps me remember why William matters. But if William matters, then it matters that we look at the investigation that so far hasn't found him and keep asking why and what went right and what went wrong and who are all these different people who got caught up in this investigation?

[Nina]

Testing, testing. Hello? Hello.

[Dan Box]

Okay, Nina, you are the producer on this podcast, but you've actually done most of the work on Frank Abbott.

[Nina]

Yes. So at the time of William's disappearance, Frank was living in Herons Creek.

[Dan Box]

We've been there. It's a really small village in the forest. There's a train line and a sawmill and a few houses. And it's about 10 minutes on the back roads from Kendall. Where William Tyrrell was staying.

[Nina]

That's right. Frank was living in a caravan on the property of Daniel Parrish. Daniel would later say at the inquest that he was scared of Frank and that Frank used to tell people that he knew where William's body was.

[Dan Box]

He used to brag to everyone at Kew. He kept on saying he was at Jeff Allen's place. It made me sick. And I said, have you reported it to the police? And I don't know if he did or not. I certainly did tell him. So that's Daniel speaking outside the inquest.

[Nina]

And also at the inquest. Daniel said that Frank had threatened him at some stage and told him he'd beaten a murder charge before and he wasn't afraid to go to jail.

[Dan Box]

So he'd beaten a murder charge.

[Nina]

Frank, I think, is talking there about the murder of Helen Harrison. So Helen's a 17 year old. She went missing while riding her bike home from work on the very northern edge of Sydney in March of 1968.

[Dan Box]

But Frank was put on trial.

[Nina]

Yes, he was 22 years later in 1990.

[Dan Box]

OK.

[Nina]

He was found not guilty. But prosecutors at the time argued that there were witnesses who said in court that Frank admitted that he followed Helen from work on her bike, grabbed her and drove her into the bush and raped and buried her. One witness said that Frank showed him a pair of blue underwear that he claimed belonged to Helen. And when Helen's body is discovered in a shallow grave, she's naked from the waist down.

[Dan Box]

Okay. But Frank's parents say he was somewhere else the day the murder happened and he's ultimately found not guilty by the court.

[Nina]

I went through his court records and there's also a separate indecent assault charge there from 2010. But again, Frank was found not guilty. And going through other records, I also found that Frank had a two year old son that died in 1984. His death certificate lists the cause of.

[Dan Box]

Death as asphyxiation, which could be completely.

[Nina]

Benign, could be anything. Sometimes when a child dies in their sleep and there's sort of a sleeping accident that could be asphyxiation.

[Dan Box]

Yep.

[Nina]

Ok, so there's nothing we can take from that cause of death, but we do know that Frank wasn't charged in relation to that at all.

[Dan Box]

But.

[Nina]

But the more you ask about Frank, the more you run into rumour and suspicion. At the inquest, a local shopkeeper said that Frank talked about William a lot in the weeks after he went missing. He said that Frank said the police were looking in the wrong place. There was also evidence at the inquest where one of his neighbours said that she heard a child screaming on the day after William went missing while she was out in her garden. But one interesting thing is that we were in that area on our last trip. I heard what sounded like a child screaming, but later realised was a peacock.

[Dan Box]

Okay. So we got rumor and we got suspicion. I know a little bit about how the police investigating William's disappearance started looking at Frank. So Daniel Parrish, who said he was scared of Frank, he reported Frank's claim that the three year old was on Jeff Owens property. The inquest heard Jeff had called the house where William was reported missing that morning about doing some work. But he said no one told him the Children were there. Geoff's evidence at the inquest was he's pretty sure he didn't have any contact with Frank that morning. But Frank later moved into a caravan on Jeff's property, and police records show that Gary Jubalin asked one of the detectives on the strike force to look at Frank in 2018. I've also spoken to a woman called Jodie Huntley who lived next door to that property. She posted on Facebook asking why that block of land where Frank lived hadn't been searched. Searched and saying that there was a kid's Spider man sleeping bag in Frank's caravan. So someone else on Facebook told Jody that she should report this. Jody told me she'd contacted Crime Stoppers but didn't hear back, which we've heard quite a few times in the course of this series. So Jody went to the police in person and a week or so after she said the police, the detectives, were at her door. Then the block of land where Frank had been living was searched. Jody and her husband gave evidence at the inquest into William's disappearance, saying that Frank kept talking about William. Even one night he knocked on their door to tell them that Jeff Owen was a person of interest in the investigation and they suspected Frank was sexually abusing their dog. Look, unsurprisingly, Jody had sleepless nights about all this, she said. But after giving her evidence, she says everything went quiet and she doesn't understand why. Here's where I think the inquest into William's disappearance runs into a problem, because it's running at the same time as the police are investigating people, particularly Frank Abbott, and that's not normal. An inquest normally runs only after the police have exhausted their investigation and can't do anything more with it themselves. Worldwide, these cases have proven to be the most difficult to solve. This is the lawyer leading the inquest in his opening statement. If William was murdered, and that's a big if, he says, it's very rare for a child to be abducted by a stranger and murdered, then it may be one of those rare 3% of cases. But abduction by a stranger is definitely something the inquest is considering. The offender in such crimes is a sneaky, complex offender who has hidden his or her desires for some time and has chosen to act on those desires. Only they haven't got evidence of a sneaky, complex offender. And the lead detective, Gary Jubalin, who was planning to use this inquest to publicly question Paul Savage, is not called to give evidence. Instead, the inquest takes a look at several of Those people we've talked about in this series, Bill and Paul and Tony Jones, who doesn't have an alibi for the morning in September 2014 when William was reported missing and whose burnt out car was later found in the bush and who was subsequently convicted of child abuse. Tony's evidence at the inquest is that he didn't have anything to do with William's disappearance, though he couldn't remember what he was doing that morning. After giving evidence, Tony gets into a confrontation with the media waiting outside the inquest.

[Martin]

Why can't you remember where you were that day?

[Dan Box]

Smashing a photographer's camera to the ground. And is bundled inside a car by detectives. There are other people the inquest looked at also.

[Martin]

This is an electronically recorded interview between Detective Senior Sergeant Mark Jukes. And at the Wagga Wagga Police station.

[Dan Box]

There'S talk of a pedophile ring operating in the Kendall area.

[Martin]

Also present is Detective Senior Constable Lonergan.

[Dan Box]

And evidence about other local sex offenders, not all of whom cooperate with a police investigation or even answer their questions.

[Martin]

You've been given legal advice not to say anything, so we're going to record.

[Dan Box]

That, but it doesn't seem to go anywhere.

[Martin]

Do you wish to say anything? For the purpose of this interview? Can you please state your full name, please, and date of birth?

[Dan Box]

There's no real evidence of anyone's involvement.

[Martin]

I'm going to ask you some questions in relation to the disappearance and suspected murder of William Tyrrell at Kendall on Friday the 12th day of September 2014. Do you understand that? Do you understand that?

[Dan Box]

And no one at the inquest seems able to answer the question, what happened to William Tyrrell? At least it seems, until the inquest starts looking at Frank.

[Nina]

So one of Frank Abbott's friends is a man named Ray Porter. He drove a white Holden Commodore station wagon. And the inquest heard that Frank summed sometimes drove Ray's car. And other witnesses would also describe Frank driving a white station wagon around the Kendall area.

[Dan Box]

William's foster mother says she remembers seeing a white station wagon parked outside the house where William was reported missing.

[Nina]

She does. And in 2019, Frank's friend, Ray Porter.

[Dan Box]

So he's the guy who drives a white station wagon?

[Nina]

That's right. He was in a nursing home and he apparently makes a confession, telling a nurse, I didn't do anything wrong. All I did was give my best mate and a boy a lift. And the nurse asked him at the time, are you talking about William Tyrrell?

[Dan Box]

That's the evidence from the inquest again, that's Right.

[Nina]

Yep. And Ray replied. Yes. Ray also said that he picked up his best mate and the child from a shed behind Kendall Public School and drove them 300 kilometres north. The nurse reported what she heard to another nurse who went to the police.

[Dan Box]

But there are problems. If that child's was William Tyrrell, then how did he get from the house where he's staying outside Kendall to the school, which is. I had a look. It's about two and a half kilometers away. And I guess if the idea is that Ray's mate, possibly Frank Abbott, took William from the house to the school, then how did that happen without a car? And if that person had a car already, why did he need Ray Porter to pick him up and drive him north?

[Nina]

The other problem is that Ray Porter was in Port Macquarie Hospital getting dialysis on the day that William went missing. His car was also not picked up on the traffic cameras along the highway outside Kendall that day, but it was the next day and the day after.

[Dan Box]

And another problem is that the inquest doesn't start looking at this in public until March 2020, which is a full year after the inquest starts. During which time Frank has all the evidence sent to him in prison by the inquest so he can read it before the inquest hearing happens, including everything suggesting a connection to a white station wagon or William Tyrrell. And at the same time, the police investigation into Frank is still ongoing because they're recording his phone calls.

[Frank Abbott]

Hello, Martin.

[Ray Porter]

G'day, Frank. Your solicitor came in yesterday.

[Frank Abbott]

Yeah.

[Ray Porter]

And that was to do with your appeal?

[Frank Abbott]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. She came and I asked her about the other paper and that too, and she said, just don't say nothing.

[Ray Porter]

She said not to say nothing.

[Frank Abbott]

Yep.

[Nina]

This is a phone call between Frank Abbott and a Christian pastor named Martin Parish.

[Dan Box]

Okay.

[Nina]

Who got to know Frank through his local chapel in the backwoods near where William went missing. So we've got transcripts which were tendered at the inquest. This is somebody else reading them. This call is July 2019. So that's a few months after the inquest started. And Frank's in prison for child sex offences against multiple children.

[Dan Box]

At this point, the pastor, Martin Parish, says he's spoken to Frank's lawyer.

[Ray Porter]

Okay. I got to speak to her on Monday and she told me she had booked in to see you tomorrow.

[Frank Abbott]

Yeah, well, I asked about the thing about the paperwork. I didn't understand a lot of it and she said that you just told me, don't answer. You're going to be charged with something.

[Nina]

Else at this Point we don't know what that something else is.

[Frank Abbott]

And I said, there's nothing there that I can be charged with anything else. What I said was the truth. It doesn't involve me in any way.

[Nina]

But there is a second phone call that same day.

[Frank Abbott]

Hello.

[Ray Porter]

G'day, Frank. Twice in one day, Frank says he's.

[Nina]

Been moved to prisons and he's been kept in isolation.

[Ray Porter]

Mate, I guess they're doing it because the police at any stage could release names of their current investigation and that would. And go through the whole system and put you at risk.

[Frank Abbott]

The officer here said he spoke, they got other charges or something. And I said, well, this is this just a person of interest. I'm not charged. Just a person of interest.

[Ray Porter]

Well, that's all. I understand that you're a person of interest.

[Dan Box]

That phrase person of interest is the key here, because at this time, Frank is a person of interest in the investigation into the disappearance of William Tyrrell.

[Ray Porter]

Mate, have all the statements gone back into your personal files or are they still sitting with you in the cell?

[Frank Abbott]

I still got all the papers in the cell here with me.

[Nina]

The two men talk about papers and statements and it becomes clear that Frank has been sent the police brief of evidence, which the police gave to the inquest and the inquest gave to Frank. So they talk about what other witnesses have told detectives.

[Ray Porter]

Yep. So I gather my brother is saying that he. That you borrowed the car without consent or. What is he saying?

[Dan Box]

They're talking about Daniel Parrish, who's Martin's brother, and Frank had been living with Daniel. It was Daniel who said he was scared of Frank and that Frank used to drive his cars.

[Frank Abbott]

Yeah, well, no, he said I had the car and all that and I drove around everywhere, but said I never borrowed his car anytime. I never took his car without permission, anytime. He wouldn't let me have the car and that he had the keys. He had all the keys.

[Dan Box]

At this point, Daniel hasn't yet given this evidence in public, but it sounds like Frank has his witness statement with him in the prison cell. And he and Martin Parish, the pastor, are talking about Frank's response.

[Ray Porter]

Yeah. Hey, look, I can imagine him not letting you use the car because you don't have insurance. And then he told me he'd make you use the car when you were doing him a favour.

[Dan Box]

The two men also talk about another witness, a child who we can't identify. The inquest heard that this child was said to have told a babysitter that Frank claimed he killed William and put his body In a suitcase.

[Frank Abbott]

And then I think he told somebody that I told him that I put him in a bag and buried him. He said, if you said anything, I'm gonna snap Mum's neck. So I'll. I'll tell you about it when you come down. Yeah, and I'll ask to see the chaplain and the welfare.

[Ray Porter]

Yeah. Good.

[Frank Abbott]

Okay. Now, God bless.

[Ray Porter]

See ya.

[Dan Box]

Okay. So to an outsider, this sounds extraordinary. But is it?

[Nina]

It's a long way from perfect. I asked our former homicide detective about it. He's not someone who's worked on William's case. He's worked on a lot of murders and a lot of inquests. So he told me that normally with an inquest, yes, you would let all of those involved, including potential suspects, see the evidence. And that's because an inquest is only supposed to happen after the police have exhausted every lead in their investigation, which we know didn't happen in this case and in court.

[Dan Box]

During the inquest, Frank is able to take part. He's on an AVL link from prison, so he's listening to what people are saying about him and he's even able to question the witnesses. You said it's far from perfect. I think that's being kind. So you've got these two processes, the inquest and the police investigation into William's disappearance running at the same time, potentially running on top of each other. At least at this point. They seem to be both heading in the same direction. And I do know from talking to both Williams birth and foster families that they say the coronial lawyers were feeling confident that they were openly telling people they were on the right track. Though something happened because last month when the inquest came back for that week long hearing, at one point Frank Abbott interrupted, saying that two of the coroner's lawyers to see him, telling him he was no longer a person of interest. The coroner cut him off. So we got no explanation. We don't know if that's true or if Frank is mistaken. All we do know is what's in these tapes.

[Frank Abbott]

Morning.

[Ray Porter]

Morning, Frank. Sorry I missed your call yesterday.

[Nina]

This is still July 2019. It's a week after the last call. Frank and the pastor, Martin Parrish, talk about the inquest in more detail.

[Ray Porter]

Has.

[Dan Box]

When.

[Ray Porter]

When do you. When do you have the interview?

[Frank Abbott]

Is that next week for the court case with the court?

[Ray Porter]

The coroner's. The coroner's case, yeah. So, yeah, it's all going to be by video link.

[Frank Abbott]

Yeah. Wednesday it is. Good.

[Ray Porter]

Yeah.

[Dan Box]

Yeah.

[Ray Porter]

The questions you asked me just before you left. Yeah. You probably need to get legal advice on those questions.

[Frank Abbott]

Yeah, well, that's what I was going to do. Not that she said anything I had anything to do with it, but it's just, you know, I want to find out what happened to him, you know, just that I want them to find who done it.

[Nina]

Then the pastor says something revealing.

[Ray Porter]

Have you heard of a name Savage? The name Savage?

[Nina]

Paul Savage?

[Frank Abbott]

Yeah, yeah. Yes, I've heard of it. It was only in his record. I don't know him outside any of that.

[Ray Porter]

I just heard that name and I'm not making any connections. I'm just saying I've heard that name.

[Frank Abbott]

Yeah, yeah, I got his records. Yep. Yeah, it's in me files on that ear.

[Dan Box]

What's the significance of these two talking about Paul Savage?

[Nina]

Well, you can hear Frank say he's got his records. It's in the files in his cells with him. And that means that Frank, who at this point is considered a potential suspect, doesn't just have the evidence that police have gathered about him, he's also got access to the evidence about other potential suspects.

[Dan Box]

So. Meaning if he's preparing his response to being questioned, he has everything he could possibly need.

[Nina]

Absolutely. Shortly after this call, In August of 2019, they searched a property near where Frank was living and they brought in heavy equipment to move piles of old dead logs.

[Dan Box]

On the same day, Frank and his pastor are on a phone call discussing the evidence.

[Frank Abbott]

I said it was 1407. 48.

[Ray Porter]

What was that? 1407.

[Dan Box]

1407 is the time a traffic camera out on the highway picks up one of the cars belonging to Daniel Parrish, the man who Frank once lived with and who says Frank might have driven them.

[Ray Porter]

14. So that's 2:00?

[Frank Abbott]

Yeah.

[Ray Porter]

In the afternoon.

[Frank Abbott]

Yeah.

[Ray Porter]

But William Tyrrell went missing much earlier than that.

[Frank Abbott]

Yeah. 10:00.

[Ray Porter]

10:00?

[Frank Abbott]

Yeah.

[Ray Porter]

Oh, okay. So they're checking up on every car that. Give me a second. The police, they're digging up, digging back in Herons Creek again.

[Frank Abbott]

Ah, yeah.

[Ray Porter]

So I don't think it's got anything to do with you at all.

[Nina]

The pastor is wrong about that. That search had everything to do with Frank Abbott.

[Ray Porter]

Oh, look, I. These are all the things that you need to write down. It doesn't make sense.

[Frank Abbott]

Ring Helen and ask Helen she can organise for me to go on there.

[Ray Porter]

I will give Helen a ring when I get home.

[Nina]

A week after that phone call, it's announced that the public hearings of the inquest are going to be suspended for Six months. And the coroner doesn't explain it. But Frank and his pastor keep talking on the phone and there's a few clues in these conversations suggesting that the delay is due to the police investigation.

[Frank Abbott]

G'day, Martin.

[Ray Porter]

Are you. You've read all the witness statements. Is there anything that. Is there anything. Did anything. Did they say anything about you and the conversation with David Abbott, your brother?

[Frank Abbott]

I don't. I don't think he ever spoke to David. Yeah, but Bernie said in his statement that I used to have arguments with Geoff in 11, in 2011 and 2012.

[Ray Porter]

You used to have arguments with Jeff?

[Frank Abbott]

Yeah, well, at the time I was arguing with Jeff was that he used to go inside, so. Because he didn't want to listen to it with Jeff.

[Ray Porter]

Jeff Owen.

[Frank Abbott]

Yeah. He said Jeff had many cars. Well, Jeff never. Hardly know him. He had two. The white sedan thing he had there.

[Dan Box]

Again is the mention of a white car like the one William's foster mother says she saw that morning soon after. There's a suggestion the police are looking at where Frank was on the morning William was reported missing.

[Frank Abbott]

Yeah, that's in me head that I was there on the Thursday working to him till lunchtime. And as you know, the police got proof that I was in Wauchope.

[Ray Porter]

Yep.

[Frank Abbott]

From 9, 30, 10 o'clock because I drew money out of me bank there.

[Ray Porter]

So, yeah, like, look, I don't know where the police are.

[Nina]

Up to two months later, they talk about detectives visiting Frank's brothers, Les and David.

[Frank Abbott]

Yeah, I talked to Les and David a few days ago now and they said that they've been up there and seen them.

[Ray Porter]

Yep.

[Frank Abbott]

Yeah, they went up and paid a visit to the.

[Ray Porter]

They were over here the other day too. They were here the other day and I was asked to go speak to their qc.

[Dan Box]

Yeah.

[Frank Abbott]

Because I was up there and they said, oh, it's all about that murder back in 1990. Someone had said. Some had brought that up. They said, I beat the charge and found not guilty. But they still bring it up. They said, oh, he's done this and he's done that. We think he might have done this one.

[Nina]

That's the murder of Helen Harrison, the 17 year old who was abducted, raped and later found buried. Frank was found not guilty, but Frank's saying that police are asking questions about it and that they think he might have been involved in William's disappearance.

[Ray Porter]

Well, that, that. That's their thinking.

[Frank Abbott]

Yeah. Now they got CCTV footage of Thursday. He was just. Heatherbrae. He was at McDonald's, at Heatherbrae they stopped there for a meal on their way up to Kendal.

[Nina]

Heatherbrae was where William's foster family stopped at a McDonald's on the drive from Sydney up to Kendall, where William would go missing.

[Frank Abbott]

And I borrowed somebody's car and went down, enticed him out with lollies and ice cream out of the yard.

[Ray Porter]

So that's what they're, that's what the feds are trying to deduct.

[Frank Abbott]

They told David that that's what I'd done. I'd borrowed somebody's car and went down and enticed him out of the yard. I didn't even know it was anybody like any kid in that street. And I've never been in that street in me life. And why would I borrow somebody's car to go up there at that particular time if I didn't even know there was anybody there?

[Dan Box]

The pastor Martin Parish tells Frank again that the police are looking at Frank's relationship with Geoff Owen, who's the tradesman who called the house where William went missing on the same morning to talk about some work that needed doing.

[Ray Porter]

So they're saying that you had a good friendship with Geoff at that stage.

[Dan Box]

And at this point, Nina, I think you have to ask yourself what was this pastor doing? So I get the idea of ministering to his flock and I get the idea of Christian forgiveness, but it seems to go beyond that. In November 2019, the police sit Frank Abbott down for a formal interview.

[Frank Abbott]

Yeah, they wanted to make a record of interview. And I said no, I'm not speaking to you because I had nothing to do with it. And they said we got all this evidence and all that. And I said well if you got it, why aren't you charging me instead of coming to question me all the time? Say it's a pretty traumatic day.

[Ray Porter]

Oh, it would have been a traumatic day.

[Frank Abbott]

Oh, they talked to me for 10 minutes asking me questions like if you plead guilty and that now we can help you and all this and that and Martin will forgive you. Now I said watch for something I didn't do.

[Ray Porter]

What did they say? That Martin will forgive you. So do they think you're lying to me?

[Frank Abbott]

Eh, that's what they said anyway. They said they found a spider man suit and kids clothes or something.

[Ray Porter]

They found what?

[Frank Abbott]

A spider man suit and kids clothes. All garbage. Because they're just trying to frighten or make me confess to something I didn't do.

[Ray Porter]

So it's okay for them to lie to you and tell you lies?

[Frank Abbott]

They do it all the time.

[Nina]

That same month, the pastor tells Frank that he should memorise something.

[Frank Abbott]

Yep.

[Ray Porter]

Yeah, you might memorise. You probably don't have anything with you right now about what my brother has said.

[Frank Abbott]

Have you want me to memorise his statement?

[Nina]

That's the statement of Daniel Parrish, who'd gone to the police about Frank. Months later, Daniel would give evidence at the inquest.

[Dan Box]

The inquest also called the pastor, Martin Parrish, to give evidence, asking him about these phone conversations and others where he'd confirmed phone numbers that Frank was asking. The pastor was asked. You seem to be taking up issues that Frank Abbott raises with respect to the Tyrrell investigation and, in a sense, doing his legwork. And the pastor agreed.

[Martin]

Did you know that there's more than 2,000 stocks listed on the Australian Stock Exchange, most of which you've never heard of, most of which are actually right at the cutting edge of what's going to drive our economy into the future. They're in mining, searching for the battery metals to power us into the future. Medical companies researching the next big breakthrough to make us healthy into the future. Or tech companies, brilliant young Australian entrepreneurs seeking the next big tech unicorn. Well, if you want to know about them, search Stockhead. Stockhead is focused on the small. You never know you could find the next big thing. Stockhead.com.

[Gary Jubilin]

Are you ready to get an inside look at crime from someone who has investigated some of Australia's worst crimes?

[Dan Box]

It was like Aladdin's cave. The Luminol found bloodied footprints and bloodied handprints on a wall. So it's just like a horror movie.

[Gary Jubilin]

Former homicide detective Gary Jubilant sits down with cops, crims, addicts, victims, small time cheats and big town lawyers as they tell their incredible stories.

[Dan Box]

My house got raided.

[Nina]

Next thing you know, I got bail refused.

[Dan Box]

Next thing you know, I'm on a truck to park lay prison.

[Gary Jubilin]

Listen to I Catch Killers early and ad free on Crymax. Plus on Apple Podcasts today or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Dan Box]

A few weeks ago, Nina and I drove up to Herons Creek. Man there said, this way. Not the first left, but take the second left. And then it's just around the corner where Martin Parish's isolated chapel stands. Yeah, there we go. There's the church next to his house and his quiet sunlit garden. Okay, there's a car, there's someone home. I'm going to swing us round and park it facing that way in the shade. So if we need to leave. I wanted to ask him why he did this. Legwork. As Frank Abbott prepared for the inquest, particularly given Frank was then imprisoned for abusing children. But we couldn't find the pastor. So the neighbor says Martin has been away for a month and she doesn't know why, but she's gonna. She wouldn't give me his number, but she's gonna call him and give him mine. We also left a written message posted through his screen door. I've got a number for another priest who works with him that I'll call when we're back in the office. We've heard nothing.

[Frank Abbott]

Yeah, you know. How's everything there? Good?

[Ray Porter]

Yeah, everything's good.

[Frank Abbott]

Oh yeah, that's good.

[Ray Porter]

Anyway, Jeanette's not with me, so she sends her love. Yeah, take care, mate.

[Frank Abbott]

Yeah, God bless you all up there and I'll give you a ring bit later on.

[Ray Porter]

Okay, mate.

[Dan Box]

And another thing we can't explain at this point is why when the inquest finally resumes after that six month break in which the police investigated Frank Abbott, Frank is not called to answer questions in public.

[Martin]

The final part of an inquest into the disappearance of New South Wales toddler William Tyrrell has begun.

[Dan Box]

Meaning all of this will be left hanging without resolution. And crucially, there is still no evidence that puts Frank Abbott at the house where William was reported missing.

[Martin]

Rob, what are we likely to hear from today's proceedings?

[Dan Box]

By now there's a new leadership in the police force. This is expected to be the final stage of the William Tyrrell inquest set.

[Martin]

Down for two weeks here in Tari.

[Dan Box]

As well as replacing Gary Jubilin, the inquest has also heard from a number.

[Martin]

Of high profile people of interest.

[Dan Box]

There's a new homicide squad commander, Scott Cook, and a new commissioner in charge of the police force, Mick Fuller. This morning, New South Wales Police Commissioner Michael Fuller addressed criticism.

[Martin]

Police have fallen away from investigating William's disappearance.

[Dan Box]

And the reality is that there are 400 plus cold cases and I have to make sure that each one of those is getting the same sort of effort. And by now, William's foster parents have gone public. In another podcast with a journalist, Leah Harris.

[Martin]

Because it's outrageous that this has happened. It's outrageous.

[Dan Box]

It's taken this amount of time criticizing the police for not doing enough to find William.

[Martin]

So I don't trust police.

[Nina]

I can't.

[Dan Box]

And for taking Gary off the investigation.

[Martin]

And nobody, nobody within that police organization is fighting for William. The only people who are fighting for William is usually and Gary. Yep.

[Dan Box]

And personally criticizing those now in charge.

[Martin]

We have been ignored. I have had to write letters, I have left telephone calls, I have left messages and we have been ignored. Who exactly has ignored you? Mick Fuller. And he's passed it down the chain of his command till it lands with Scott Cook. And how is he handled it? Not very well. Unprofessional, incredibly un. Lack of empathy, extraordinarily poorly. And we would have expected a whole lot more from someone of that sort of position in this, you know, seniority of the police force. Sorry, that's just crickets in the wind. Crickets in the wind. The sound of silence has been deafening and it's not for us. Is this for William?

[Dan Box]

The inquest doesn't come to an end as expected. Instead it's adjourned again for months. Around the same time, Gary Jubalin is put on trial for recording his conversations with the person of interest, Paul Savage. Gary's defense is basically that he had a lawful reason to record them because he was doing police work and also worried that Paul might accuse him of doing something he hadn't. Which actually Paul does do. I remember sitting in the courtroom when Paul gave evidence saying that Gary had threatened to arrest him and saying Gary told him that he was coming back the next day to pick Paul up. And we know Gary didn't say that because Gary recorded their conversation. But spoiler alert, the magistrate doesn't agree and finds him guilty, accusing Gary of pursuing Paul at all costs, accusing Gary of lying on the witness stand, saying Gary's investigation was above and beyond legality. Honestly, it's pretty full on criticism and meant absolutely no one in the police or in the court system wants anything to do with Gary after. I'm not challenging the magistrate's decision, but there are a few interesting things I noticed sitting in court watching Gary Jubalin on trial. Firstly, the police don't always let these things play out so publicly. Since then, there have been other police officers charged with various offences and the force doesn't always issue a press release, let alone brief the media off the record.

[Nina]

Tonight, nine News can reveal details involving a high ranking member of the New.

[Dan Box]

South Wales Police Force facing criminal charges. This was last year and the high ranking member of the police force allegedly downed about 20 drinks at a work party, then got in his car to drive home. I'm joined by our chief court reporter, Tiffany Genders. Tiff, what can you tell us?

[Nina]

Pete, a senior member of the state's police executive has been charged with high range drink driving six months after allegedly crashing and later abandoning his vehicle.

[Dan Box]

This cop's name will not become public. Instead, it will remain suppressed for 40 years after the court agreed to what was an extraordinary request from the police force, protecting his identity and connection to others in the top ranks.

[Nina]

Ordinarily, when officers are charged, immediate release is issued, but that didn't happen in this case. We've also put questions to the Commissioner and Police Minister about who within the senior ranks had knowledge of the case and whether it was treated differently from others.

[Dan Box]

Something else I thought was interesting about Gary's trial was how the allegations against him were made by another officer who he'd fallen out with over the William Tyrrell investigation, called Craig Lambert. The two men even squared up against each other in the offices of the homicide squad and had to be separated physically in court. At Gary's trial, the police said that Craig was unwell and could not give evidence. But in a separate Industrial Relations Commission hearing, Craig said that he let police know he was available to give evidence in Gary's trial if required. And Craig's account of one of those recorded conversations was completely different to the version heard at Gary's trial, where one detective said on oath that Gary made him record it. But Craig, who was also in the room at that time, said this didn't happen. Only by the time that this version of events became public at the Industrial Relations Commission, Gary had been convicted, meaning his downfall from celebrated detective to criminal was complete. Putting Gary on trial at this time meant risking the entire William Tyrrell investigation. It's not me saying that, it's the police in their application during the trial for another suppression order on the evidence, arguing it might, quote, lead to potential suspects destroying inculpatory evidence or manufacturing exculpatory evidence which could jeopardize the investig. The police lawyer stood up in court and admitted it would have been preferable to delay the trial. But that didn't happen for whatever reason, and the trial happened. The final interesting thing took place on the last day of that court hearing, when William's foster mother was called to give evidence in Gary's defence. And she doesn't hold back.

[Martin]

The biases and the political agendas around William's matter are just disgraceful.

[Dan Box]

This is William's foster mother not speaking at Gary's trial, but in an interview with the journalist Leah Harris. Do you have faith in the current.

[Gail]

Police force to find out what happened to William?

[Martin]

No, no, no.

[Dan Box]

William's foster mother says much the same thing on the witness stand in Gary's trial. Her big fear is that the case will be sent to unsolved homicide with everything We've heard in this series about that team and backlogs and missing evidence and cases going unopened.

[Martin]

Because this is what's going to happen. It'll go to inquest and the coroner will say, police, you've done a great job. Thank you very much. And deliver an open finding. Police will go, great, yeah, we did a really good job. Push that over onto unsolved and it's going to sit there and people are going to forget about it. We can't let people forget William.

[Dan Box]

At Gary's trial, William's foster mother tells a story about meeting the new homicide squad commander, Scott Cook. Nina, that's the transcript of her evidence. Can you read it?

[Nina]

We said hello, exchanged pleasantries. I said to him, I'm surprised we're actually meeting because given the conversations we had over the phone, I did not expect to meet Mr. Cook at all. After the pleasantries, Mr. Cook said to me, you are not the only families of victims of crime. I stopped and looked at him and I thought, no, but you are. At the inquest of one of those victims, he then proceeded to say, william is not our only case. I then said to him, william is three years old. He was taken from his grandmother's house. It was a street where there's probably 20 houses on it. We were sitting just around the corner and he's a child in care. I don't think you've got any other cases that describes that and I don't think you can just give up on him.

[Dan Box]

She's asked in court if Scott Cook.

[Nina]

Replied to this and she says no. She says, I then asked him, so are you planning on taking William's case to cold cases? And he said, yes, it's going to.

[Martin]

Unsolved, which he believes it will in six months time. They'll probably pull it out again and someone will have a look at it and, you know, they'll look at it go, yeah, well, you know, nothing new has come through. We'll put it back over there in that box.

[Nina]

And I'm thinking, I can't believe you're saying this to us here at the inquest for this little boy, you're saying this to his parents.

[Dan Box]

And that's kind of what's happened. The investigation into William's disappearance is not officially an unsolved homicide, but the new lead detective, David Laidlaw, works for the unsolved homicide team, as do others in the strike force currently on it. At Gary's trial, William's foster mother also says she was told there had been a handover of information from Gary Jubalin to David Laidlaw.

[Nina]

That whole knowledge transfer, I was really, really worried about it. And I said specifically to Scott Cook, who's doing the handover, he told me Gary Jubilin was doing a handover with David Laidlaw. After those conversations, David Laidlaw said to me, there is no handover. I'm not allowed to talk to Gary.

[Martin]

So I'm really confused because I'm told that Gary and David Laidlaw meet regularly and have been meeting to do a handover. And then on the other hand, I get told very clearly that Gary is not allowed to speak with anybody about this matter.

[Nina]

And she says, I'm angry.

[Dan Box]

She was. She was crying and shaking in the witness box.

[Martin]

And I'm really angry because police are playing with William. Doesn't matter what we think, doesn't matter what impact it has to us, it matters to William.

[Dan Box]

Saying this in Gary's trial is front page news. William Tyrrell's foster mum makes stunning claim about senior officer and it's personal. That was February 2020. A month later, in March, I spoke to William's foster mother who said she'd been told the police had dropped the Paul Savage line of inquiry and the Police commissioner, Mick Fuller, was still not responding to their emails or phone calls. In July, a detective, Andrew Lonergan, had worked on the strike force before, was brought back and asked to review the investigation. Andrew Lonergan later said in court that he was aware of the foster mother's criticism. And I've seen an email sent by one of the detectives saying they identified William's foster mother as a significant person of interest. And that happened a month later. In August. And the same August, the strike force arranged to meet William's foster mother at the crossroads outside Kendall, where they'll later suggest that she disposed of William's body. But that also means the police are investigating yet another person of interest while the inquest is still going, because the inquest comes back in October for what it says will definitely be its final hearings.

[Martin]

William's foster parents also spoke about their frustration and the lack of progress. Today we are at the same point we were six years ago. Life will never be the same, William's biological family told the court, only it's.

[Dan Box]

Not the final hearings. And the coroner doesn't hand down her findings as she promises, because within weeks, the police are installing covert surveillance inside the foster parents home. And a year later, the New South Wales Police Commissioner will be giving this radio interview. You know, my understanding is from the investigators is that there is certainly one one person in particular that we are looking closely at. How confident are you about the suspect that your detectives have in mind?

[Frank Abbott]

Look, I'll say this, Ben.

[Dan Box]

I'm confident that the team who has the investigation at the and I'm confident.

[Frank Abbott]

They can solve it.

[Dan Box]

I truly believe that. We'll get into that in detail. Next time on Witness. William tyrrell. A lot of different people have been involved in making this series. Among them, the executive producer is Nina Young. The sound design was by Tiffany Dimak. The producers have been Emily Pidgeon, Nicholas Adams Jasbar, Phoebe Zukowski Wallace and Tabby Wilson. Research by Aidan Patrick. Original Music by Rory O'Connor. Voice acting on this episode from J.K. cagatay. Our lawyer is Stephen Coombs. The editor at news.com is Kerry Warren. I'm Dan Bo.

[Gary Jubilin]

Are you ready to get an inside look at crime from someone who has investigated some of Australia's worst crimes?

[Dan Box]

It was like Aladdin's cove. The luminal found bloodied footprints and bloodied handprints on a wall. So it's just like a horror movie.

[Gary Jubilin]

Former homicide detective Gary Jubilant sits down with cops, crims, addicts, victims, small time cheats and big town lawyers as they tell their incredible stories.

[Dan Box]

My house got raided.

[Nina]

Next thing you know, I got bail refused. Next thing you know, I'm on a.

[Dan Box]

Truck to Park Lee prison.

[Gary Jubilin]

Listen to I catch killers early and ad free on Crymax plus on Apple podcasts today or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Nina]

Cocaine is a global industry where the profits are counted up in millions and the losses measured out in murders because.

[Dan Box]

It'S only business and right now business is good. And I'm like torture seller. What are you talking about?

[Martin]

I don't think we can arrest our way out of this.

[Dan Box]

Listen to Cocaine Inc.

[Nina]

Wherever you get your podcasts or visit cocaineinc.com aux.