The Police Theory | 4

Summary

Witness: William Tyrrell - Episode 4: The Police Theory

Host/Author: news.com.au
Release Date: October 27, 2024
Podcast Title: Witness
Episode Title: The Police Theory | 4

---

Introduction

In Episode 4 of Witness: William Tyrrell, hosted by news.com.au, the narrative delves deep into the perplexing ten-year-old case of William Tyrrell, a three-year-old boy who vanished from his family home in Kendall, New South Wales, on September 12, 2014. Despite extensive investigations, William remains missing, leaving his family and the community grappling with unanswered questions. This episode focuses on unraveling the police's prevailing theory regarding William's disappearance and examines the myriad challenges faced by the detectives involved.

---

Meet Detective Chief Inspector David Laidlaw

The episode opens with an introduction to Detective Chief Inspector David Laidlaw, the seasoned detective leading the investigation into William Tyrrell's disappearance. With a tenure in the police force dating back to the late 1970s and experience as a detective since 1988, Laidlaw brings a wealth of knowledge to the case. His role as the investigation coordinator of the New South Wales Police Unsolved Homicide Team underscores his pivotal position in addressing cold cases.

[01:06] Dan Box: "His job today is as investigation coordinator of the New South Wales Police Unsolved Homicide team. Roughly 40 detectives whose job it is to go back over cases that others couldn't solve and solve them."

Despite his extensive experience, Laidlaw faces significant hurdles, notably a backlog of unsolved cases due to limited resources. The team struggles to triage and review numerous files, with over 829 unsolved cases on record and a substantial portion remaining unexamined.

[03:21] Dan Box: "That's why David's being questioned by this special commission of inquiry held last year to investigate the police response to specific hate crimes."

---

Challenges Within the Unsolved Homicide Team

A critical segment of the episode highlights the systemic issues plaguing the Unsolved Homicide Team. Laidlaw reveals a staggering backlog of cases awaiting review, attributing the delay to inadequate resources and a shortage of qualified personnel.

[03:36] Detective Chief Inspector: "You have to understand the resource implications. We don't have enough people to do them. And enough people, I mean by people who are qualified."

Further complicating matters, an internal report from 2013 uncovered significant mishandling of evidence within the New South Wales Police. The report exposed eight entire pallets of improperly stored evidence related to 22 unsolved homicide cases, raising alarms about the integrity of ongoing investigations.

[19:22] David Laidlaw: "One of the reasons to write this document was to let command know what the issue was and the problems was that we faced."

Despite acknowledgment of these issues, Laidlaw indicates that little progress has been made in rectifying the problems, leaving both past and present cases in jeopardy.

[39:46] David Laidlaw: "When you joined the unsolved homicide team in 2017, were you already aware of difficulties in locating exhibits that were appreciated within that team?"

---

The Police Theory: A Breakdown

The core of the episode revolves around the police's prevailing theory on William Tyrrell's disappearance. According to Detective Chief Inspector Laidlaw, the focal point of this theory implicates William's foster mother in knowing the whereabouts of his remains.

[06:15] Detective Chief Inspector: "We believe we can identify who it may be or some. The circumstances of him going missing."

The theory posits that shortly after William was last seen, his foster mother may have discovered his body and subsequently concealed it. This scenario requires a rapid and calculated response, raising questions about the plausibility of such actions given the circumstances and evidence.

---

Timeline Reconstruction and Analysis

Through meticulous examination, the episode reconstructs the timeline surrounding William's disappearance, challenging the feasibility of the police theory. Key moments include:

• 9:37 AM: The last known photograph of William, captured by his foster mother, shows him wearing his Spider-Man suit on the veranda, appearing happy and engaged in activities like drawing and playing dice.

  [09:36] William's Foster Mother: "And I look at that picture and I just think, minutes, minutes. And our world has changed."

• Approximately 10:00 AM: According to the police theory, within minutes of the photograph, William's foster mother found his body behind the veranda. She then decisively chose to hide his remains, a process fraught with logistical and psychological challenges, especially under the scrutiny of a silent neighborhood.

  [15:32] Dan Box: "For the police theory to be right, a lot has to happen very quickly. The foster mum has to walk here... And react quietly enough that no one in the neighborhood hears."

The episode scrutinizes the practicality of this theory, considering factors like the visibility of the alleged disposal site, the difficulty of hiding a body without detection, and the absence of immediate distress signals from the foster mother.

[24:21] Dan Box: "So look, the long and the short of that is, I think it's all irrelevant. William could put his own shoes on and his shoes had Velcro straps. So whatever the foster mother said he could have put shoes on at the time."

---

Questioning the Foster Mother's Credibility

A significant portion of the episode critically examines the foster mother's accounts, highlighting inconsistencies and behaviors that fuel suspicion. Notably, discrepancies in the timing of events and the deletion of critical messages from her foster father’s phone raise red flags.

[32:08] Dan Box: "What does she gain by deleting that message?"

These actions, juxtaposed with the foster mother's claims of William being an adventurous yet cautious child, intensify the scrutiny over her possible involvement in the disappearance.

---

Implications of Police Resource Shortages

The episode underscores how systemic resource limitations within the police force may hinder the thorough investigation of William's case and others. The inability to adequately triage and review unsolved cases not only delays justice but also potentially jeopardizes the integrity of ongoing investigations.

[42:22] Dan Box: "The record of the New South Wales Police isn't actually perfect there too. If the current police theory of what happened is William's foster mother drove his body away in her mum's grey Mazda 3, then surely it's a problem."

---

Conclusion and Forward Look

As the episode concludes, it emphasizes the high stakes involved in unsolved homicide investigations. The police theory presents a binary reality: either the foster mother is implicated in William's disappearance, or she has been wrongfully accused, causing irreparable damage to her reputation and familial relationships.

[44:30] Dan Box: "When you joined the unsolved homicide team in 2017, were you already aware of difficulties in locating exhibits that were appreciated within that team?"

The episode leaves listeners poised for the upcoming inquest scheduled to resume the following week, promising further revelations and potentially groundbreaking developments in the case of William Tyrrell.

[47:34] Nina: "And at that point, you've got four people hiding a secret without cracking for a decade."

---

Final Thoughts

Episode 4 of Witness: William Tyrrell meticulously dissects the complexities of a prolonged investigation marred by institutional challenges and scrutinized theories. By intertwining compelling interviews, critical analysis, and a reconstructed timeline, the episode paints a vivid picture of the relentless quest for truth in the face of adversity. As the inquest looms, the episode sets the stage for pivotal insights that could finally shed light on William Tyrrell's mysterious disappearance.

---

If you have any information about William Tyrrell’s disappearance, please contact Crime Stoppers at 1800 333 000 or email [e-mail].

Transcript

[Dan Box]

Okay.

[David Laidlaw]

I call David Laidlaw.

[Commissioner]

Thank you.

[Dan Box]

David Laidlaw is the detective leading the investigation into William Tuan's disappearance.

[Daniel Doherty]

How?

[Commissioner]

Would you take an oath or an affirmation? Certainly.

[Dan Box]

He's tall and heavyset, with white hair and a thick white mustache.

[David Laidlaw]

And your occupation?

[Detective Chief Inspector]

I'm a detective Chief Inspector.

[David Laidlaw]

And you're with the homicide squad?

[Detective Chief Inspector]

That's correct.

[David Laidlaw]

Thank you.

[Dan Box]

David's what you might call a veteran policeman.

[David Laidlaw]

You've been with the force since the late 70s?

[Detective Chief Inspector]

That's correct.

[Dan Box]

Meaning he's been a cop for longer than I have been alive.

[David Laidlaw]

And you've been a detective since 1988?

[Detective Chief Inspector]

That's correct.

[Dan Box]

And he's been a detective investigating serious crimes since I was in primary school and still getting pocket money.

[David Laidlaw]

And you joined the Unsolved homicide team in 2017, is that right?

[Detective Chief Inspector]

That's correct.

[Dan Box]

His job today is as investigation coordinator of the New South Wales Police Unsolved homicide team. Roughly 40 detectives whose job it is to go back over cases that others couldn't solve and solve them. Every one of those cases represents a grieving family who might have waited decades for an answer. New South Wales Police has around 800 unsolved cases on its books, although the numbers are a bit uncertain.

[David Laidlaw]

And you say that as of the date of your statement, there were 829 of those cases?

[Detective Chief Inspector]

Yes, that's correct. Yes.

[David Laidlaw]

The figures provided by New South Wales Police, as at yesterday for that period, is 790.

[Detective Chief Inspector]

Yes. I can't assist now.

[David Laidlaw]

Do you know what's happened to those 39 files?

[Detective Chief Inspector]

No, I don't know.

[Dan Box]

He should know. That's why David's being questioned by this special commission of inquiry held last year to investigate the police response to specific hate crimes. Because it's his job to oversee the review of those unsolved cases. The way it works is another cop takes a first look at the file called a triage. They then report to David, who decides if the case will be formally reviewed. Only then can it be reinvestigated. And all of this can take weeks or months or years.

[David Laidlaw]

213 have not yet been triaged.

[Detective Chief Inspector]

Now, with that figure, it should be 125.

[David Laidlaw]

I see.

[Dan Box]

So the 230, that's 125 possible unsolved murders. The Unsolved Homicide Team have never looked.

[David Laidlaw]

At some of those cases. Maybe decades old.

[Detective Chief Inspector]

They could be, yes.

[Dan Box]

The Unsolved Homicide Team was established back in 2004, but the triage is just the first stage of their work.

[David Laidlaw]

Now, according to these figures, there are 291 cases where it appears at least, that no review has been completed.

[Detective Chief Inspector]

That's correct.

[Dan Box]

125 cases plus 291 cases equals quite a backlog. That's hundreds of possible murders, grieving families. David says it's a resource issue.

[Detective Chief Inspector]

You have to understand the resource implications. We don't have enough people to do them. And enough people, I mean by people who are qualified.

[Dan Box]

At this point. The head of the inquiry interrupts him.

[Commissioner]

More resources been requested?

[Detective Chief Inspector]

No.

[Dan Box]

So David hasn't asked for any help?

[Detective Chief Inspector]

That's correct. I know there's 19 triages ready for me to vet and I haven't had the opportunity to vet yet.

[David Laidlaw]

For how long?

[Detective Chief Inspector]

Since. I'd say, since June. I would say last year.

[David Laidlaw]

So those 19, where somebody has completed a review and sent it to you to assess, they've been sitting on your desk for over 12 months?

[Detective Chief Inspector]

That's correct, yes.

[David Laidlaw]

When do you expect to get to them?

[Detective Chief Inspector]

I don't know.

[Dan Box]

Just to stress, that's 19 families waiting maybe decades for an answer to what happened, not knowing the file detailing their loved one's possible murder has been triaged by a detective, then sat unopened on David's desk for the past year.

[Commissioner]

And have you drawn this to the Commissioner's attention, that you need more resources one way or the other?

[Detective Chief Inspector]

No, I haven't, sir.

[Commissioner]

Why not? If the work is that important or does it not require urgent attention?

[Detective Chief Inspector]

It does require urgent, attorney.

[Commissioner]

Well, then why hasn't somebody said something to the Commissioner instead of sitting quietly, leaving files collecting dust on the desk?

[Detective Chief Inspector]

If I can reiterate, what I said before is that we're going from a backlog of. We've still got triage forms that have been completed that we cannot get out to even review because there's so many of them.

[Commissioner]

Do I work on the basis that the present Commissioner is entirely unaware of the resources issues that you currently face, is that right?

[Detective Chief Inspector]

That's correct, sir.

[Commissioner]

Well, that is remarkable, if I may say so. Yes.

[Dan Box]

Mr. The inquiry's final report said it is difficult to see how these resource issues could provide a justification for Detective Chief Inspector Laidlaw to fail to perform his own function in relation to these 19 cases. David said part of the reason was he was busy investigating the disappearance of William Tyrrell. He's still investigating William's disappearance. I'm Dan box and from news.com au this is Witness William Tyrrell, episode four the Police Theory. Those 19 files David Laidlaw's not had time to open and the 19 grieving families they represent. I can't help but see them as part of the fallout from the investigation into William's disappearance. And there are others like William's biological family, where his grandmother says she lost her son over the past 10 years when they haven't had any answers and she lost herself as well. David is still working to solve the case though, and the police have now set their sights on William's foster mother.

[Nina]

Where are we?

[Dan Box]

This is the house where William went missing. So Nina, who's the producer on this podcast and I have come to the house where William was reported missing to try walking through the police's theory of what happened to him. So this is what the police now think happened to William and we've pieced this together from the cross examination of their new suspects in the New South Wales Crime Commission and the cross examination of one of the detectives investigating William's disappearance in court. In court that detective confirmed that this is one of their theories. And he said the police believe they know where William's body was disposed of and that he's formed the view that William's foster mother knows where William Tyrrell is. The house where William was reported missing is a big two story building at the top of a dead end road called Benaroon Drive. The neighbours houses are all set back from the road and each house is surrounded by a wide garden. It looks like a nice place to live. Blue sky, green grass, the quiet. But behind the houses on either side is forest. The last known photograph of William tour was taken at 9:37 on the morning he went missing. And he's wearing his Spider man suit on this veranda of the house. The photo is taken by his foster mother and you can see William's happy, his mouth is open like he's laughing or he's excited or he's roaring. And we know the foster mother's there because she took the photograph and we know that her mum is there. But the foster father, her husband, he's left the home earlier that morning. He's gone to make a work call. He needs Internet reception to do that.

[Nina]

And just to say we do have a point in time for when he left the. Because there was cctv, right?

[Dan Box]

Yeah. So all of that's been confirmed, but the uncertainty is over the time of the photograph. It could be out by two hours, so that would make it 7:37, not 9:37. The foster mom told police when she was asked about this that she didn't know how to set the camera. But the police and later the Inquest have looked at this, there's been forensic examination and both accept that 9:37 is accurate.

[William's Foster Mother]

And I look at that picture and I just think, minutes, minutes. And our world has changed.

[Dan Box]

This is William's foster mother from an interview with both foster parents recorded by New South Wales Police months after he was reported missing. So, 9:37. Let's start the timer. Now. After the photograph's taken, the foster mother tells police that William Tyrrell did more drawing on the veranda and she remembers playing with dice with him. She was teaching the kids how to count and William's sister came over and she wanted to join in and William withdrew. So that's all his foster mum's account. She's told police that William then got bored and he tried different activities, including a game that they called Daddy Tiger. So William was roaring at the grown up. But the foster mother tells police that at some point William Tyrrell jumped down off the deck on his own.

[William's Foster Mother]

He's got a really good sense of adventure, but he's got a really good understanding of his limitations. He's not.

[Dan Box]

He.

[William's Foster Mother]

Not a wanderer, not a child to run away. Always had us in earshot or eyesight.

[Dan Box]

She says she told him to put his shoes on, but he's barefoot in the photograph. But the thing is, there's been a whole bunch of controversy about this photo. There's been headlines in the newspaper about, did he have shoes on? Didn't he have shoes on? And does that mean somebody is lying? The foster mother says she told him to put his shoes on because there might be bindies in the grass.

[Nina]

Yeah, that's a bindi right there.

[Dan Box]

There's a bindi, yeah.

[Nina]

So that's. That was the argument that was made that there weren't bindis.

[Dan Box]

There was a whole bunch of controversy online in the newspapers about whether or not it was bindi season.

[Nina]

We're at the house and there's a bindi and it's that time of year, so.

[Dan Box]

So look, the long and the short of that is, I think it's all irrelevant. William could put his own shoes on and his shoes had Velcro straps. So whatever the foster mother said he could have put shoes on at the time. William is said by his foster mother to have jumped down off this veranda and run off around the corner of the house. He's running up and roaring and running away. And she says she asked William, can you see Daddy's car? Because his foster father was due to come back at any moment.

[William's Foster Mother]

He's not a kid that would just run into something. He would stop and think. He would consider what he would do before he would do anything else.

[Detective Chief Inspector]

Smart little boy.

[Dan Box]

Yeah.

[Detective Chief Inspector]

Yeah.

[William's Foster Father]

And he'd stay within distance, knowing how far away he was from us.

[Dan Box]

And the foster mom remembers that her tea was hot and she remembers drinking some of it. And she remembers hearing William roar. And then she told police, I hear nothing.

[William's Foster Mother]

I can't hear him. Why, why? Why can't I hear him? And I walked around, seriously, it was just 2 metres, 3 meters away from where we were sitting. And I've just walked out and I just see nothing.

[Dan Box]

And she goes around the corner of the house. I don't know if she's on the veranda or if she's on the garden next to it, but she's moved around the corner of the house so she can see down the slope from the back of the property.

[William's Foster Mother]

And I'm yelling out, william, where are you? You need to talk to Mummy. Tell me where you are. I can't see you, I can't hear you. Where are you?

[Dan Box]

And she says she remembers standing there, just staring into space, thinking, why can't I hear him? Why can't I see him? Why can't I see the red through the bushes down there? So the red is the Spider man suit that we know he was wearing because it was in that photograph. And she says, she goes back to her mum and she says, he's not here. William's not here. Now, this is where we start to lose the timing. She tells the police that the gap between the photograph being taken of William and her going to look for William was maybe five, 10 minutes. But she's questioned on this at different times by the police and she's inconsistent on exactly how long it was. And at one point the police actually ask her, they say sometimes five minutes doesn't always feel like five minutes, which is fair. And she accepts that. So let's say five minutes for playing the dice, for William getting bored, for running off and back, for playing Daddy. Tiger being told, can you see Daddy's car? And the foster mother realizing she can't hear him. So the minimum estimate that she gives, so five minutes, if the photo was at 9:37, it's now 9:42 and on our timer we've been six and a bit minutes. But the police theory is that William went round the other side of the house and fell off the veranda here, and that at this point, the foster mother found William's body and these ferns and the foliage around under the veranda. That he was dead, but she makes a snap decision to hide his body. Now, for that to happen, for the police theory to be right, a lot has to happen very quickly. The foster mum has to walk here.

[Nina]

Find William's body, and react quietly enough that no one in the neighborhood hears.

[Dan Box]

It or reports it, because we know it's a quiet street. You can hear it's a quiet street, so there's no audible reaction that either her mum or William's sister notice. She has to decide not to call for help. So that's a very quick decision. There's no triple zero call at that point. And she has to decide to hide William's body rather than seeking any kind of medical attention. And William's sister is also in the house, so she's four. The foster mum has to decide whether to bring her mum and William's sister into the conspiracy and get them to lie with her about what's happened to.

[Nina]

William or avoid them finding out that anything has happened.

[Dan Box]

So William's sister, who's 4, is interviewed more than once by specialist detectives, and she gives the same version, which is that William is playing Daddy Tiger. So if it is a conspiracy, the William's foster mother then has to pretend to look for William herself. She has to convince her own mother what happened. The foster mother later tells police that she runs around this garden and the foster mom's calling out, I can't hear you. I need to see you. I need to hear your voice because I can't see you.

[Nina]

I can't see you.

[William's Foster Mother]

I can't hear you. Where are you? And he was nowhere.

[Dan Box]

And at some point, according to the police theory, she walked up to the carport just here, around the house, and when she got there, she loaded William's body into her mum's grey Mazda 3, according to the police. So, so far, we are about 11 minutes since the time when William is last known to be alive. Okay. William's foster mother has always denied any involvement in his disappearance. So at this point, it's worth stepping back and asking, who are the police coming up with this theory? William's disappearance is currently being investigated by detectives from the New South Wales Police Unsolved Homicide Team. It's part of the bigger homicide squad, and it exists to go back to those old cases that weren't solved the first time, to see if anything was missed, if any mistakes were made, or if new technology, particularly DNA, could lead to a breakthrough. And these are serious cases, possible murders. So the detectives working for Unsolved are expected to be good but their work is not perfect. In 2013, the year before William went missing, New South Wales Police discovered evidence relating to 22 unsolved homicide cases sitting in a basement. No one seemed to know it was there. That led to the then senior officer on the unsolved homicide team to write a damning internal report on just how much evidence was missing, scattered, misfiled or lost. The report was confidential at the time. It's marked for official use only. It said one search recovered eight entire pallets of evidence that had been improperly stored. Many of these items may relate to unsolved homicide cases. Many of these poorly secured items included homicide victims, clothing, post mortem and crime scene specimen swabs, meaning detectives today didn't know what was missing and DNA analysis had not been carried out.

[David Laidlaw]

One of the reasons to write this document was to let command know what the issue was and the problems was that we faced.

[Dan Box]

This is the former officer who wrote that report giving evidence at the same inquiry you heard at the start of the episode.

[David Laidlaw]

All of the investigators in the office were aware of the problems regarding retention and proper exhibit handling procedures.

[Dan Box]

That officer didn't get to see if those problems were ever fixed. He ended up leaving the police for medical reasons. Shortly after submitting his report, the current boss of the New South Wales Police homicide squad told the inquiry those problems still existed when he took over in 2019.

[Daniel Doherty]

Yes, but we're talking about certain cases, we're not talking about every case. But yes, it was known.

[Dan Box]

Detective Superintendent Daniel Doherty is a stout, stolid, gray bearded policeman. He looks like a safe pair of hands, but when questioned, he didn't know how many unsolved homicide cases were affected.

[David Laidlaw]

And was it well known that these problems may have existed in relation to a large number of unsolved homicides?

[Daniel Doherty]

I wouldn't say a large number.

[David Laidlaw]

Was it well known that these problems arose in a number of cases and nobody knew how many cases the problems arose in?

[Daniel Doherty]

I think that now, with the work of the unsolved homicide team, there'd be a small number of cases.

[David Laidlaw]

What's the basis on which you tell the Commissioner that the number of cases that suffer from this problem is a small number rather than an unknown number?

[Daniel Doherty]

It is an unknown number.

[Dan Box]

So there's an unknown number of cases where the unsolved homicide team don't know what evidence they're missing and that was still the case last year. That's 10 years after that discovery of evidence relating to those 22 unsolved homicides in a police basement that first brought this issue to light.

[David Laidlaw]

Are you aware of those problems having been addressed?

[Daniel Doherty]

Well, it's been an ongoing issue. I know that there's been some reviews of record services and I know there's reviews in relation to exhibits and that's been an ongoing issue.

[David Laidlaw]

The problems were well known as problems within the unsolved homicides team when you started in December 2019.

[Daniel Doherty]

Yes, well, they brought it to my.

[David Laidlaw]

Attention and it's well known that there are still problems within the unsolved homicides.

[Daniel Doherty]

Team in terms of those issues that have been raised.

[Detective Chief Inspector]

Yes.

[Dan Box]

So the unsolved homicide team is not perfect. There's problems with record keeping, missing exhibits and an inability to fix those problems over a whole decade. But that itself doesn't mean that the investigation into William's disappearance has faced the same problems. Back to the police theory that William's foster mother drove his body away from the house. In her mother's gray Mazda 3.

[Nina]

She describes driving very slowly.

[Dan Box]

Yeah. William's foster mother doesn't mention this drive in her initial statement to police on the day that William goes missing. But she does describe it in a video walk through of what happened the police recorded with her about six days later. And there's been different reports about whether this drive was made before William's foster father came home or after. But if you look at William's foster father's witness statements, he doesn't mention the drive. So you got to think it's more likely that the foster mum makes this drive before he gets home. So she drives down here.

[Nina]

She describes with her head out the window.

[Dan Box]

She's looking out the window, she's calling for William and. Yeah, so she's driven down and she turns right here. Now on the drive, Williams fosterman tells police that on this road, so it's almost a single lane road, it's narrow, there's no road markings, there's trees on either side. She describes this semi trailer coming down really fast.

[William's Foster Mother]

And I pulled. He thought I pulled over because he acknowledged me by saying, thanks for pulling over, but I pulled over because I've just got my head out the window looking for William.

[Nina]

Yeah, she said she wasn't pulled over, she was just driving.

[Dan Box]

Just driving so slowly.

[Nina]

No doing this drive. It. It does make sense to me that this is how you might look. Yeah, you're covering a lot of ground.

[Dan Box]

Here and you can imagine that if you are looking for a kid, you've got thick bush on either side of the road. You're desperately looking for, you know, that red or that blue of the Spider man suit. You're shouting his name as you go, and it's a panicked response like, this isn't a. You know, you're not in your rational mind if you're looking for a kid. But equally, you're not in your rational mind if you're trying to cover something up. But she gets here and according to the foster mother, she stops and I.

[William's Foster Mother]

Get to the writing school and I just think, it's not here.

[Dan Box]

So this is the corner of Batar Creek Road and this dirt track that's called Cobb and Co Road.

[Nina]

So this is where the police are alleging the body.

[Dan Box]

Yeah.

[Nina]

Could have been left.

[Dan Box]

Yeah. They've specifically called out, specifically in court, they have suggested the body of William Tyrrell was left here. But if you get out, have a look.

[Nina]

Very open.

[Dan Box]

It is very open, isn't it? So just testing the police theory. If you were trying to hide a body when you get here, there's the old riding school. So there's several buildings maybe 100 meters away overlooking where we are now. There's another house there on the other side of the road, a second house there and a third one there, all within eyeshot when if you hadn't turned right at the bottom of Banneroon Drive and you turned left, or if you'd continued down this road another few hundred meters, you'd just be in forest on either side. There would be no houses looking at you. So this spot here is probably the worst place to try and hide anything if you wanted to commit a criminal act.

[Podcast Host]

The podcast Faith on Trial looks into Hillsong both in Australia and the US and takes both the listener and hosts on unexpected twists and turns. In the story of Brian Houston and.

[David Laidlaw]

The singing preachers, there are two incidents involving Pastor Brian.

[Podcast Host]

The Australian journalists uncovered a litany of alleged criminal behavior in the megachurch.

[Dan Box]

Financial gifts were being given to the leaders of the church.

[Podcast Host]

Listen to Faith on Trial Hill song ad free on Crimex plus on Apple Podcasts today or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Nina]

Cocaine is a global industry where the profits are counted up in millions and the losses measured out in murders because it's only business. And right now, business is good.

[Commissioner]

And I'm like, torture seller. What are you talking about?

[Dan Box]

I don't think we can arrest our way out of this.

[Nina]

Listen to Cocaine Inc. Wherever you get your podcasts or visit cocaineinc.com aux if we're working on the theory that this drive occurs before the husband comes home.

[Dan Box]

Yeah. Which seems most likely.

[Nina]

It does seem most likely. If we're Working on that theory, we don't have much time to bury a body.

[Dan Box]

And also, like to be blunt, burying a body is quite hard work. And there's no suggestion that there's any digging tools in the car. So the best you're going to do at this point, if you are hiding a child's body, the best you're going to do is carry it. Also, she's panicking. And maybe panicking explains why you'd pick this spot, which is in sight of several houses. But if you had stopped here and you tried to hide something, you could walk, what's that, 50 meters, and leave the body behind one of these piles of leaves and sticks. But it's not going to be very well hidden. So if you wanted to hide it properly, and I know this is mortgage, but.

[Nina]

So it gets. It gets very unwalkable very quickly.

[Dan Box]

Yeah. If you wanted to hide something as obvious as a child's body in a bright red outfit. In a bright red outfit, you'd have to go another 10 meters, maybe into the bush. And that's hard walking. And you're carrying a body, you're carrying something that's heavy. So. But maybe you do it. It's not impossible.

[Nina]

No.

[Dan Box]

But either way.

[Nina]

You notice the flowers.

[Detective Chief Inspector]

Yeah.

[Dan Box]

I'll show you what this is. Actually, this rake is a memorial left by the police when they did the big forensic search and just a few years ago. And it did have this message on it. We will never forget him. It's hard to read now, and there's a date, but it's a memorial left by police who, when they came down here, did search this area. They ripped the bush apart. They dug up tons of soil. They were using tools like this to just scrape through everything. And if they found anything, they've never made it public. And the detectives are adamant when questioned in court about this location. So one of the detectives on the strike force says that the police do believe William's body was disposed in this area on the corner of those two roads. And he's asked in court if he's lying about whether the police know the location. And he says he's not. And then he says, I formed the view that the foster mother knows where William Tyrrell is. Which does lead you to the question, well, if you believe that, then why have you not been able to find him? But we don't know. So the foster mom then drives back into Benarine Drive.

[Nina]

Okay.

[Dan Box]

So she says, she drives up here. So she tells police, she brings the car back up and she just Runs out and she looks for him again and she's running around. So how long have we been. We've been 26 minutes. So if William was last seen at 9:37, that's about 10:00 now.

[Nina]

Yeah, but you're discounting there all the time playing.

[Dan Box]

Yeah.

[Nina]

Having a cup of tea.

[Dan Box]

We know that at about 10:30, William's foster father sends a text to his foster mother saying, I'll be home in five.

[Nina]

And he is home.

[Dan Box]

And he is home within five minutes. But the foster mother deletes that message. So at the time when she's on her evidence running around looking for William, she deletes the message from William's foster father. Now, she tells police that that's habit. She just deletes messages as they come in. And it true that other messages on her phone are deleted. And there's a part of me that gets that. I delete emails as quickly as I can. And she is, from personal experience, obviously, she's a really organized, a really efficient person. Does it mean anything that she deleted that message? If the police theory is right and she's at this point involved in a conspiracy to dispose of William's body, what does she gain by deleting that message?

[Nina]

Hard to tell. And I think also hard to read too much into the actions of someone under extreme stress.

[Dan Box]

Either way.

[Nina]

Yeah.

[Dan Box]

Because on the police theory, she has to decide in that moment whether or not to bring him into the conspiracy either. If the police are right and she is trying to hide the fact of William's death, she has to decide very, very quickly whether she's gonna lie to him that William has just disappeared, or tell him the truth and convince him very quickly to lie with her. The husband gets home about 10:33 or soon after. He arrives home where we are now, and he pulls into this driveway here, and the foster mother walks towards him from the veranda area, so that side of the house there. And she asks him, have you seen William? And the foster father's response on his evidence. And her evidence is that he says, what are you talking about? Why would I have William? The foster mother tells her husband that William's missing and he takes off.

[William's Foster Father]

I then said, where is he? Where, where, where, where's he gone? She said he was. He was here five minutes ago. Here, five minutes ago?

[Dan Box]

Yep.

[William's Foster Father]

I can't find him. I was calling his name. William. William, come on, William, where are you? She said that he was. He was last seen around here. Yep. But I thought, okay, well, you know, if he was down at the road, you possibly would have seen him.

[Dan Box]

You've checked that dollhouse over there?

[William's Foster Father]

Yeah, absolutely. Went through there, Went through there, went underneath their house, went around their house, went in there because they weren't home. Yeah, I went in there in their carport.

[Dan Box]

So he's running all around there and then he's running in wider and wider circles up and down the street here. And he says he kept coming back to the house to check for any updates. Has William come back?

[William's Foster Father]

Yeah, they've got a caravan in there. It's all locked away. I went in there, I checked under.

[Dan Box]

And that was locked.

[William's Foster Father]

Caravan was locked? Yep, absolutely. And I was looking in everything I possibly could. I then couldn't find him. I then found there's a walking trail or a trail that leads to the cemetery. I followed that. You know, I was still looking for things on the ground. If there's something, you know, might lost a shoe or something like that.

[Dan Box]

You were yelling all this time.

[William's Foster Father]

All the time, all the time. Yelling for him all the time.

[Dan Box]

I remember when I've lost, even for a moment, one of our kids, it's like the whole world is shaking. It's that much emotion, it's that much adrenaline and panic. So I can imagine him running literally up and down this street looking for William. But then about 1040, so just over an hour after that photograph was taken, the foster mum, she runs down the road here to a neighbor's house, asking if the neighbor has seen a little boy in a Spider man outfit. But the significance of that is, from that moment on, the foster mother is with someone from outside her family, someone who has no reason to lie to protect her. So we know that from that moment on, she's not hiding a body.

[Nina]

Yeah.

[Dan Box]

So having walked it through, what do you think about the police theory?

[Nina]

Yeah, it's doable. It is doable.

[Dan Box]

It's tight, it's doable, but I don't think it makes a lot of sense. And the thing that got me was driving down to the corner of those two roads that the police say they believe William's foster mother hid his body. You're right in front of the riding school, you're in view of 1, 2, 3 other houses, when if you wanted to hide something and you'd driven another 200 metres, there'd be nothing, there'd just be forest. So why pick that point?

[Nina]

But it's entirely possible that we're looking at a puzzle that's missing a lot of pieces and that the place could.

[Dan Box]

Have pieces, but if they have pieces. Why haven't they done anything about it? Why has she not been charged? The one person who does know what other puzzle pieces the police hold is the man leading the investigation, Detective Chief Inspector David Laidlaw. He took over more than five years ago. So, back in 2019, which was months after the public announcement of a separate plan to overhaul the way the unsolved homicide team deals with its backlog of cold cases, it was announced in an exclusive story in Sydney's Daily Telegraph newspaper that promised that every murder mystery to have baffled New South Wales Police in the past 40 years will be revisited in one of the biggest ever shake ups of cold case homicides in the state. The paper said that cases that could be solved would be prioritized. And another internal police report, also marked for official use only, said the officer in charge of the process would be David Laidlaw.

[Detective Chief Inspector]

There was a time frame given of three months for the review to be undertaken. However, we identified that some matters had been out there for three years.

[David Laidlaw]

And in the last five years, since the 2018 system was introduced, there are still 125 that have not been triaged and 291 that have not been reviewed. And that number of cases that have been neither triaged nor reviewed, they may include cases from the 70s and 80s?

[Detective Chief Inspector]

They could be, yes.

[David Laidlaw]

And at the moment, is this the case? The review committee receives five to 10 reviews every three to six months?

[Detective Chief Inspector]

Approximately, yes.

[David Laidlaw]

So that's fewer than 20 in a year, is that right?

[Detective Chief Inspector]

Yes.

[David Laidlaw]

So of the 442 undetected cases, it'll take 22 years to review all of them? On that average.

[Detective Chief Inspector]

Yes. It could do.

[David Laidlaw]

When you joined the unsolved homicide team in 2017, were you already aware of difficulties in locating exhibits that were appreciated within that team?

[Detective Chief Inspector]

Yes.

[David Laidlaw]

Was that notorious within the Unsull Thomas?

[Detective Chief Inspector]

It's a rather strong word, notorious. I would say it was known. Well known, yes. Therefore, the reconciliation plan was to get all exhibits for forensic analysis to be back into one place, which is the Metropolitan Exhibit and Property Centre.

[David Laidlaw]

And that project was underway, was it, when you joined the team?

[Detective Chief Inspector]

Yes.

[David Laidlaw]

And has that project been completed?

[Detective Chief Inspector]

I'm unable to tell the Commissioner that.

[David Laidlaw]

Have you received written updates as to the progress of that project? You haven't received any written update as to the progress of that project since you commenced?

[Detective Chief Inspector]

That's correct, yes.

[Commissioner]

Have you asked, are you the person who would be expected to receive the updates?

[Detective Chief Inspector]

Yes, sir, I would.

[Commissioner]

Have you asked for them?

[Detective Chief Inspector]

No, sir.

[Commissioner]

Why not?

[Detective Chief Inspector]

I can't give the Commissioner a reason. Why not?

[Dan Box]

The second voice, the one who's just started asking questions, is the inquiry's head, a Supreme Court judge?

[Commissioner]

These are all people's lives and people's families lives.

[Detective Chief Inspector]

I appreciate that.

[Commissioner]

And has anyone, as far as you know, ever put to the Commissioner that some specially funded. Funded project is urgently needed to get a grip on all of these unsolved cases?

[Dan Box]

Along the way, David says he does know requests for missing exhibits from unsolved cases were sent out to different parts of the police force. That happened in 2017, so seven years ago now.

[David Laidlaw]

Where are the replies kept?

[Detective Chief Inspector]

I don't know. Is somebody I can. They would burn what we call our record management system.

[David Laidlaw]

Is there someone responsible for collating the replies and reviewing them?

[Detective Chief Inspector]

Well, I suppose the responsibility now rests with me.

[David Laidlaw]

But you haven't conducted that exercise. Have you taken any steps towards reviewing the responses that have been received?

[Detective Chief Inspector]

No, I haven't.

[David Laidlaw]

The physical exhibits are, of course, critically important to unsolved homicides.

[Detective Chief Inspector]

Of course. I. Yes. Thank you.

[Commissioner]

Thank you. All right, I'll adjourn. Daulty. Thank you.

[Dan Box]

To be honest, I struggle to get my head around what David's saying. Unsolved homicides are real people, real grieving families. But New South Wales Police is missing exhibits, missing documents by the pallet load. And the detective in charge of going back through all these cases says he doesn't know basic things like where they keep replies to requests for information or what's in those replies, or how big the problem really is. I get David Laidlaw's busy. Among other things, he's running the investigation into William's disappearance. But the record of the New South Wales Police isn't actually perfect there too. If the current police theory of what happened is William's foster mother drove his body away in her mum's grey Mazda 3, then surely it's a problem. The police at the time didn't examine that car until 20 September 2014, five days after William was reported missing. I'd like to ask David about all of this, but I've been told no. Instead, New South Wales Police have given us a short written statement saying police are, quote, unable to provide comment or interviews as the matter is before the coroner, meaning the inquest into William's disappearance, which is due to start again next week. So if anyone out there is thinking.

[David Laidlaw]

I might have gotten away with this, what's your message?

[Detective Chief Inspector]

They haven't.

[Dan Box]

Though that didn't stop David giving this interview to Sky News in 2021, when the inquest was also ongoing.

[Detective Chief Inspector]

We'll continue with this investigation as long as it takes.

[David Laidlaw]

Do you believe you know who the person is?

[Detective Chief Inspector]

We believe we can identify who it may be or some. The circumstances of him going missing.

[Dan Box]

Yes. You know what happened, don't you? You know who it is, don't you?

[Detective Chief Inspector]

We have thoughts about what. What occurred to William. Yes. And there's a range of thoughts of what happened to him. Yes.

[David Laidlaw]

And who was responsible?

[Dan Box]

Yes. We started this episode talking about the lives that have been damaged so far by the police investigation. The families of those 19 cases where reports have sat on David Laidlaw's desk for a year unopened. Right now, other lives are at risk of harm also, because today only one of two things can be right. Either the police theory is correct and William's foster mother disposed of his body and has deceived everyone over the past 10 years when she's been publicly campaigning for more retention, not less, on this case, or the police are wrong and William's foster mother has been wrongly and tragically described as a suspected criminal in front of her friends and family and the entire country. That's the reality of unsolved homicide investigations. The stakes are very, very high. And which of those two theories has evidence to support? It might become clear next week when the inquest into William's disappearance resumes its public hearing. And we will be there reporting on what happens in the next episode. Because one thing walking through the police theory with Nina has made obvious to me is you don't know what you don't know. What do you feel about the foster parents now.

[Nina]

In that timeline for the police theory to be true? You don't have to be a psychopath to be able to react that quickly.

[Dan Box]

Because at the very least you are seeing a child's body deciding not to seek help, picking that child's body up, hiding it and then driving away to hide it further, with the intention, almost certainly, of coming back to move it again because it wasn't found breaking down.

[Nina]

Sobbing in front of other people, including.

[Dan Box]

The people who know you best, your mum, your husband, William's sister. The other alternative is that William's foster mother sits her mum down and says, this is what's happened. William has died and we need to hide that fact. And she deals with her mum's grief, shock, horror and turns that into a willing conspirator. Then she does that again with William's 4 year old sister and turns a 4 year old child into someone who will convincingly lie to police more than once for several years. And then she either lies to her own husband and has done for the past 10 years because he's defended her when examined by police, or she also convinces him.

[Nina]

And at that point, you've got four people hiding a secret without cracking for a decade.

[Dan Box]

Yeah.

[Nina]

Under extreme pressure.

[Dan Box]

Yeah. But, you know, hearing this car has made me think, like it's so obvious when a car drives up here because there's no other traffic, that the other option is that someone takes William and drives off with him. And listening to that, you just. Would somebody not have heard? That's next time on Witness. William Tyrrell. If you know anything about William's disappearance, please contact Crime Stoppers. There's a number in the show notes for this series, but if there's anything you want to tell us, you can email witness.com au or I'm on social media and it can be completely confidential. A lot of different people have been involved in making this series. Among them, the executive producer is Nina Young. The sound design was by Tiffany Dimak. The producers have been Emily Pidgeon, Nicholas Adams Jasbar, Phoebe Zukowski Wallace and Tabby Wilson. Research by Aidan Patrick. Original Music by Rory O'Connor. Our lawyer is Stephen Coombs. The editor at news.com au is Kerry Warren. I'm Dan Bot.

[Stockhead Host]

Did you know that there's more than 2,000 stocks listed on the Australian Stock exchange? Most of which you've never heard of, most of which are actually right at the cutting edge of what's going to drive our economy into the future. They're in mining, searching for the battery metals to power us into the future. Medical companies researching the next big breakthrough to make us healthy into the future. Or tech companies, brilliant young Australian entrepreneurs seeking the next big tech unicorn. Well, if you want to know about them, search Stockhead. Stockhead is focused on the small. You never know you could find the next big thing. Stockhead.com.

[Podcast Host]

Are you ready to get an inside look at crime from someone who has investigated some of Australia's worst crimes?

[Dan Box]

It was like Aladdin's cave. The luminal found bloodied footprints and bloodied handprints on a wall. So it's just like a horror movie.

[Podcast Host]

Former homicide detective Gary Jubilant sits down with cops, crims, addicts, victims, small time cheats and big town lawyers as they tell their incredible stories.

[Dan Box]

My house got raided. Next thing you know, I got bail refused. Next thing you know, I'm on a truck to Park Lee Prison.

[Podcast Host]

Listen to I Catch Killers early and ad free on Crymax. Plus on Apple podcasts today or wherever you get your podcasts.