The Suspect | 10

Summary

Witness: William Tyrrell - Episode 10: The Suspect

Host/Author: news.com.au
Release Date: December 8, 2024

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Introduction

In the tenth episode of Witness, titled "The Suspect," news.com.au delves deep into the ten-year-old mystery surrounding the disappearance of three-year-old William Tyrrell. Last seen on September 12, 2014, wearing his beloved Spider-Man suit, William vanished from his family home in Kendall, on the Mid North Coast of New South Wales. Despite extensive investigations, his whereabouts remain unknown. The episode explores the intricate web of media leaks, police investigations, and personal testimonies that have shaped this high-profile case.

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Media Leaks and Their Impact on the Investigation

The episode opens with journalist Mark Murray, affectionately known as "Moz" among his peers, discussing a pivotal moment in September 2021 when he broke a significant story about the investigation.

Mark Murray (Moz):
"I literally bumped into somebody who is not a detective, was not even based at Parramatta Police Headquarters...". [00:24]

Murray recounts how an anonymous source within the police approached him with claims implicating William's foster mother in his disappearance. Trusting his instincts and following the "golden rule" of journalism—never jeopardize an investigation—Murray consulted his editor, Ben English. Believing the information was credible, they proceeded to publish the story without further verification.

Mark Murray:
"I was paranoid like everybody. I didn't want to talk on the phone... I thought it was 100%. It was sweet." [01:19]

However, this decision inadvertently disrupted the live police investigation. The Homicide Squad, led by Detective Chief Inspector Dave Laidlaw, was unaware of the impending publication.

Dave Laidlaw:
"We are here today at Kendall in relation to the circumstances surrounding William missing from this residence seven years ago." [58:24]

The premature leak led to widespread media coverage, making William's foster mother the focal point of public scrutiny. Murray reflects on the fallout, acknowledging the strain it placed on his professional relationships and reputation.

Mark Murray:
"I think Tyrrell has no boundaries. It's a national. It's like one of those stories that captures the whole nation... certain reporters have become obsessed, haven't they?" [14:30]

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Confrontation with Alana Smith

A significant portion of the episode features a heated exchange between journalist Dan Box and Alana Smith, a close associate of William's foster parents. Smith vehemently opposes the podcast's narrative, accusing the journalists of distorting facts and tarnishing reputations without evidence.

Alana Smith:
"I don't give a fuck, Dan. I've articulated my thoughts and my feelings about what you and your current colleagues are doing and how you are skewing..." [20:00]

The confrontation is intense, with Smith making unsubstantiated claims against the foster parents, including allegations of pedophilia and corruption. This exchange highlights the emotionally charged environment surrounding the case and the challenges journalists face when dealing with aggrieved parties.

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Personal Testimonies: The Laidlaw Family Perspective

The episode introduces Dave Laidlaw, a cousin of William's foster parents, who provides a personal account of the investigation's toll on his family. Laidlaw shares his initial disbelief upon hearing about William's disappearance and the subsequent stress of learning that law enforcement was scrutinizing his aunt and uncle.

Dave Laidlaw:
"It was it was so frustrating the way that they had constructed this conversation without, I suppose, being... but I feel like they'd led me down a path." [51:48]

Laidlaw describes the invasive nature of the police investigation, including the seizure and extensive examination of the family's vehicle—a gray Mazda 3—which later resulted in significant repairs due to alleged tampering.

Dave Laidlaw:
"It seems to me that almost every panel in the car was replaced. The front bumper, the headlights...". [59:56]

He expresses deep frustration and anger towards the unknown perpetrator, the police's handling of the case, and the enduring impact on his family's life.

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Legal Proceedings and Police Tactics

The podcast delves into the legal battles faced by William's foster parents. Despite being charged with financial deception related to dummy bids on their property, they were ultimately acquitted after pleading guilty to lesser charges. The episode critiques the police's aggressive tactics, including extensive surveillance and coercive questioning by the New South Wales Crime Commission.

Mark Murray:
"It's really, because this one, that's my lifeblood is your reputation and your contacts. And there was anger. There was serious anger." [05:35]

Furthermore, the episode highlights the ethical dilemmas faced by journalists when handling leaked information and the delicate balance between public interest and investigative integrity.

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Ongoing Investigation and Future Developments

As the episode progresses, it touches upon the suspension of the brief of evidence submitted to the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) concerning the foster mother's alleged involvement in disposing of William's body. The episode hints at forthcoming inquest hearings and the continuous media and public interest surrounding the case.

Unknown Journalist:
"The New South Wales Police Force asked the DPP to suspend its consideration of the brief of evidence until the end of the inquest into William's disappearance... The next episode of Witness." [63:24]

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Emotional and Societal Impact

Throughout the episode, personal stories underscore the profound emotional toll on both the biological and foster families. The relentless media attention, coupled with aggressive police investigations, has left lasting scars, particularly on the children still living with the foster parents.

Unknown Journalist:
"I've got a daughter around the same age. I look at her and I can't imagine what being treated like this would do to her." [47:28]

These narratives highlight the broader societal implications of high-profile criminal investigations and the delicate interplay between law enforcement, media, and the individuals caught in the crossfire.

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Conclusion

Episode 10 of Witness: William Tyrrell provides a comprehensive and emotionally charged exploration of one of Australia's most enduring missing person cases. By weaving together journalistic accounts, personal testimonies, and critical analysis of police procedures, the episode presents a multifaceted view of the complexities surrounding William's disappearance. As the investigation continues, listeners are left anticipating further revelations and the eventual resolution of this heartbreaking mystery.

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Notable Quotes:

• Mark Murray:
  "I literally bumped into somebody who is not a detective... who said, I believe that William went over the balcony, that the foster mother was involved, and quite a few details." [00:58]

• Alana Smith:
  "What is it that you fucking want from me? Apart from the truth?" [20:37]

• Dave Laidlaw:
  "I still feel really frustrated and angry. Angry at whoever took William and started this and ruined so many lives." [62:07]

• Unknown Journalist:
  "William has been murdered by his narcissistic psychopath foster mother and the corpse then..." [31:08]

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Production Credits:

• Executive Producer: Nina Young
• Sound Design: Tiffany Dimac
• Producers: Emily Pidgeon, Nicholas Adams Jasbar, Phoebe Zukowski Wallace, Tabby Wilson
• Research: Aidan Patrick
• Original Music: Rory O'Connor
• Voice Acting: Beth Box
• Legal Counsel: Stephen Coombs
• Editor at news.com.au: Kerry Warren

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This episode is part of Witness Season 1: The Missing 49 Million, which also explores the case of Alan Metcalfe and the disappearance of $49 million from his tech company.

Transcript

[Dan Box]

You've done this before? Yeah. All good.

[Mark Murray]

Okay, thank you.

[Unknown Journalist]

September 2021. You break the story.

[Dan Box]

Police close in on a new suspect. William cops confident they have cracked the case. How did that come about?

[Mark Murray]

So I bump into somebody and I've got to be very careful, obviously, because.

[Unknown Journalist]

The source, Mark Murray, or Moz to his friends, is the crime editor at Sydney's Daily Telegraph newspaper. MOS is old school. You'll often find him on the phone or in the pub, usually halfway through telling a long story about Sydney's underworld. And he's been working the crime beat in this city for as long as I have been alive. And for my money, Moz is the best crime reporter in New South Wales.

[Mark Murray]

I literally bump into somebody who is not a detective, was not even based at Parramatta Police Headquarters where all the detectives are. I just want to establish that this person somehow knew quite a lot about the new way the investigation was going in the police. A person in the police? Yes.

[Dan Box]

Okay.

[Mark Murray]

But not a detective. But anyway, somebody in the police force. Who? He said, look, this is what's happening now. I believe that William went over the balcony, that the foster mother was involved, and quite a few details.

[Unknown Journalist]

Full disclosure. I like Moz. He and I go back. We're colleagues and have been rivals, each trying to break bigger stories for our different newspapers. And in the past couple of years, I've overseen another podcast where Moz is one of the hosts.

[Mark Murray]

And I'm paranoid like everybody. I didn't want to talk on the phone. This person. I didn't ring police because I didn't want anyone having their phone records matched up to when this story potentially comes out. So I was in here and I ran into Ben, you know, the editor, Ben English. Yeah. And I told him this whole story. Yeah. Mind blowing. This is probably the biggest mystery in Australia currently. Biggest crime story mystery. And here we have this massive new information on it. And I said, I've got to confirm it, but I've got to be careful how I go about it. And he said, okay. And I'm still thinking in my head, who the fuck do I ring here?

[Dave Laidlaw]

Right.

[Mark Murray]

One, I don't want somebody shutting me down or. But I want to make sure I don't stuff up an investigation. Like that is every crime report is primary. You don't want to stuff up an investigation because, one, you don't want to see somebody get away with something, and two, no one's going to talk to you again.

[Unknown Journalist]

And this scoop Moss is describing, it was always going to get attention. It's the moment the police went public saying they were looking at William Tyrrell's foster mother as a suspect. Only the way that happened, at least as Moss tells it, this scoop was a stuff up, just not his.

[Mark Murray]

So I was in the office, Ben and I, and he said, maybe I'd make a call or two. I go, yeah, right. And he comes out like an hour or two, two hours later. He said, I've run that past and I don't know who. And he said, we're fine to run it. I said, you sure it's not going to stuff anybody up? He said, It's 100%. You're okay. And I then made no more calls because I thought it was 100%. It was sweet. So I wrote the story, said to Ben, are we going to run it in a day or two? He said, oh, you know what? Let's just run it tomorrow. And I go, okay. I said, are you sure it's okay? He said, yeah, sure. Sweet. I'm thinking, well, I'm not going to ring anyone because I know. He says it's fine. So I thought all the major players had been notified, right? Investigators, everybody.

[Unknown Journalist]

But everybody hadn't been notified that Moz's story was coming. And that matters because we're talking about a live police investigation into a missing child, meaning detectives are still working the case. They're talking to witnesses, they're choosing what to tell people and what not to tell them. And they have covert surveillance running.

[Mark Murray]

And in the end, we put it up at about 8:00.

[Dan Box]

And so you published it.

[Mark Murray]

And my phone went nuts. And it's a total miscommunication somewhere along the hierarchy chain.

[Dan Box]

So they didn't know the story was coming.

[Mark Murray]

They didn't know the story was coming.

[Unknown Journalist]

So the cops in Homicide. In Homicide, particularly, running the investigation.

[Mark Murray]

Running the investigation.

[Dan Box]

Didn't know.

[Mark Murray]

Didn't know. So that would be Dave Laidlaw. Right. Who's now still in charge. He had no idea. Now, I've had known him again for years. It just meant that everyone in Homicide believed I'd broken the golden rule. You know, potentially stuffing up an investigation.

[Unknown Journalist]

That's the golden rule.

[Mark Murray]

And that is the golden rule.

[Unknown Journalist]

So in this case, the cop running.

[Dan Box]

The investigation into William's disappearance didn't know that you were going to run this.

[Unknown Journalist]

His boss, who's the head of homicide.

[Dan Box]

Didn'T know you were going to run this. My understanding is the assistant commissioner didn't know. And the relevant deputy commissioner didn't know either.

[Mark Murray]

Yes. Subsequently, I found that out yeah. Sickening feeling. It's really, because this one, that's my lifeblood is your reputation and your contacts. And there was anger. There was serious anger.

[Unknown Journalist]

So the question is, who should be the target of that anger? Who's to blame for this stuff up that might have damaged the William Tyrrell investigation?

[Mark Murray]

Even to this day, people would like to know the initial source, but it's.

[Dan Box]

Not just the initial source, is it? Because the initial source do with it what you do. Maybe has a casual conversation with you, and that is your job, and that happens. But there's also the secondary source who confirms it to your editor. So there's two sources of this leak.

[Mark Murray]

Yeah.

[Unknown Journalist]

Which.

[Mark Murray]

But more importantly, saying it is okay.

[Unknown Journalist]

The thing about the story was it was pretty strong.

[Dan Box]

Like it wasn't, you know, it starts off, police zero in on a new person of interest. Fair enough.

[Unknown Journalist]

Who they believe is responsible for the.

[Dan Box]

Death and disappearance of William Tyrrell.

[Unknown Journalist]

Police are now confident they will solve the mystery of the disappearance.

[Dan Box]

A new investigation has uncovered clues previously not explored. And although at the start you're talking about a person of interest, by midpoint through the article, you're calling that person a suspect. You're not naming them, but you're saying the cops suspect this person is responsible.

[Mark Murray]

I actually wish we'd actually said that. It's on the foster parents now. I think we probably could have gone with it.

[Unknown Journalist]

It was pretty obvious who you were talking about.

[Dan Box]

I mean, everybody knew.

[Unknown Journalist]

Everybody did know. Because as soon as Moz's article is published, other reporters are calling the police force, who do confirm their new new suspect is William's foster mother.

[News Anchor]

Good afternoon. There have been major developments in the William Tyrrell investigation today. And as we go to air this afternoon, this is what we know. The toddler's foster mother is now the key person of interest in his disappearance.

[Unknown Journalist]

The key person of interest, despite, as we now know from the inquest, the police having no forensic or witness evidence to support that. And all of this attention also explodes what had actually been a careful gradual to apply pressure to William's foster mother through other leaks to the media and select interviews with chosen reporters.

[Gary Jubelin]

So if anyone out there is thinking.

[Unknown Journalist]

I might have gotten away with this, what's your message?

[Detective Chief Inspector]

They haven't.

[Unknown Journalist]

Like this Sky News interview with David Laidlaw, the new lead detective. You know what happened, don't you?

[Mark Murray]

You know who it is, don't you?

[Detective Chief Inspector]

We have thoughts about what occurred to William. Yes.

[Unknown Journalist]

And who was responsible.

[Detective Chief Inspector]

Yes.

[Unknown Journalist]

The police strategy was to slowly ratchet up the pressure while all the time the foster parents, house and car and telephones are being recorded with COVID surveillance. It's exactly the same kind of tactics that led to the downfall of the previous lead detective, Gary Jubalin. But Moz's front page story blows up without warning. Right in the middle of this careful.

[Mark Murray]

Strategy, I was told in no uncertain terms, an explosion has gone on. There is witch hunts, there is anger. And I can understand because this is a huge case they're trying to solve, the case of a missing boy, a little. A little child. And no matter what we say and how, no matter what they say, when every case is equal, every murder is equal, every. It isn't emotion gets, you know, there's a little child, you know, and so to have their strategy stuffed up innocently by whoever, I don't.

[Unknown Journalist]

I take issue with that because, yeah, you may have stuffed up their strategy.

[Dan Box]

Innocently because you, as a journalist are.

[Unknown Journalist]

Writing what you've been told, and what.

[Dan Box]

You'Ve been told by someone in the.

[Unknown Journalist]

Police is good to go.

[Mark Murray]

Yeah.

[Dan Box]

But that person who your editor, Ben English, spoke to, and he might have.

[Mark Murray]

Spoken to more than one.

[Dan Box]

He might have done.

[Mark Murray]

And I've got to be, you know, he has sources that still amaze me. Right.

[Dan Box]

But that person.

[Unknown Journalist]

Who to have known.

[Dan Box]

That must almost certainly have been in the police themselves and confirmed it to Ben and said, yeah, you can go with that. That person's not acting innocently.

[Mark Murray]

Um, no one. Yeah. I can't answer that because I don't know the person.

[Unknown Journalist]

I spoke to Moz's editor, Ben English, and he's not going to reveal his source and I wouldn't expect him to. But it's not really about Ben. It's about those people caught up in the fallout.

[Mark Murray]

And I've subsequently found out it didn't stuff up any investigation. In fact, there was a media strategy almost in place to use the Telegraph exactly the way we did, except for it didn't match their timetable.

[Dan Box]

There is one other aspect to this in terms of the fallout, is that William's biological and foster parents weren't told this story was coming before it came.

[Unknown Journalist]

And.

[Dan Box]

There'S an element of emotional damage done by that.

[Mark Murray]

Yeah. Which again, I. I didn't know. Well, I'd imagine the foster parents who were target of the investigation. I thought when you're given the good to go, I would have thought that there was something in place. And look, I think that there still would have been bugs or something in their house, no matter what there were. Yeah, yeah. So that wouldn't have buggered that part up. The emotional to the biological parents. Yeah, I can see where you're coming from. And that's something I think we hadn't probably explored enough.

[Dan Box]

But I don't think it's on you.

[Unknown Journalist]

Moss says it's taken him years to repair his reputation and his relationship with some of the detectives in the homicide squad. So he's another person who suffered at least a little in the fallout from the way police have handled the William Tyrrell investigation. And talking to Moss, I'm starting to think how this is only the latest in a history of leaks from the police force in this case, going right back to the first raids on Bill Spedding, to Bill's arrest, the details of what he was wrongly charged with, the existence of other potential suspects, that was leaked, as was Gary Jubalin being taken off the investigation. And then there's this leak about the police suddenly suspecting William's foster mother, which will in turn be followed by another leak. Good evening. We begin tonight with breaking news on one of Australia's most baffling cases. This time revealing that police have sent a brief of evidence to the state's Director of Public Prosecutions. 9News can reveal detectives now believe there's enough evidence to charge the toddler's foster mother over his disappearance. This news breaking in June last year, a day after what would have been William's 12th birthday, talking about leaks.

[Mark Murray]

That's the one that's caused more consternation than anyone, that they had handed a brief to the dpp. Now that was even a bigger leak because I think only seven people knew and I know there was an internal investigation over that, a big one. So I think the reporter involved in that, she's been sent to Coventry. I know how she feels because they're furious about that.

[Unknown Journalist]

And if the police are furious, it's because these leaks keep threatening to damage the investigation into who took three year old William Tyrrell, who kind of gets forgotten in the storm of headlines and the internal politics in which this whole case has played out over the past decade.

[Mark Murray]

I think Tyrrell has no boundaries. It's a national. It's like one of those stories that captures the whole nation, it just doesn't. It's not just a Sydney or Telegraph story, don't you think?

[Unknown Journalist]

Oh, yeah.

[Mark Murray]

And certain reporters have become obsessed, haven't they?

[Unknown Journalist]

I'm not innocent within this. I'm a reporter. I like leaks, I like being leaked to. But standing back, I can see how innocent lives get caught up in the explosion when these Bombs go off on the front pages, all because someone couldn't keep their mouth shut on a phone call with a reporter or an editor. And I can see how these leaks also feed the damage and suspicion surrounding this investigation. As have other leaks which are more illicit and more damaging. And where the police are not the only guilty party. From news.comau this is witness William Tyrrell. Episode 10, the suspension.

[Dave Laidlaw]

You look great.

[Alana Smith]

Oh, thanks. Feeling good?

[Mark Murray]

Yeah.

[Alana Smith]

It's bloody cold in here.

[Unknown Journalist]

This is a woman called Alana Smith speaking to another colleague of mine, the journalist Caroline Overington, in 2021, the same year Moz broke that story about police now looking at William's foster mother.

[News Anchor]

All right, let's go.

[Dave Laidlaw]

Come.

[Alana Smith]

Yeah, come through.

[Unknown Journalist]

Cheers.

[Alana Smith]

How was your trip?

[Unknown Journalist]

Alana has some skin in the game here. She once went to court arguing for the right to publicly identify William Tyrrell as a foster child when the government was refusing to let that happen. Which is partly why Caroline wanted to talk to her.

[News Anchor]

It's just audio, so podcast is just voice.

[Unknown Journalist]

That's not what interested me, though, listening to this recording. I'm interested in one particular moment.

[News Anchor]

We don't need to clear everything off. Or do you want to just move that computer?

[Alana Smith]

No worries.

[Unknown Journalist]

Which happens while they're still setting up the interview.

[News Anchor]

We might need this chair, then.

[Alana Smith]

There's some stuff on ears from the brief.

[News Anchor]

Perfect. Thank you.

[Alana Smith]

But you don't know that I have that.

[Unknown Journalist]

Alana says there's some stuff on here from the brief and hands it over. The brief is the brief of evidence, meaning all the evidence the police have gathered in this case for the inquest into William's disappearance and which somehow leaked, got into the papers and ended up circling around the Internet. And that matters because this is evidence from a police investigation, which today is still ongoing. And these leaked documents include police statements and transcripts of interviews with witnesses, including William's foster parents, and their phone records and photographs marked protected and confidential. All of which, if it becomes public, can only undermine the police and the inquest and their chances of bringing to justice whoever it was who took William. And Alana must know she's not supposed to just hand this stuff over. Listen, again, there's some stuff on ears from the brief.

[News Anchor]

Perfect. Thank you.

[Alana Smith]

But you don't know that I have that there.

[Unknown Journalist]

She says, but you don't know I have that. Alana has her own take on William's disappearance. She's gone online herself a lot, calling William's foster parents, quote, dirty fucking parasites and calling Gary Jubalin a Corrupt fucking motherfucker and worse. I shouldn't need to say this, but there's no evidence to back up her insults and I'm only mentioning them to demonstrate just how dirty and polluted everything surrounding this case has got. So I called Alana, but she didn't answer. Then she called me back. Hello?

[Alana Smith]

Hello, Dan.

[Dan Box]

Hi, Alana, how are you doing?

[Alana Smith]

Yes, good, thank you. I just want to let you know that I'm recording the conversation.

[Unknown Journalist]

That's fine.

[Dan Box]

Are you happy if I record it as well?

[Alana Smith]

Of course.

[Unknown Journalist]

Alana has written things about me online. Also, since starting this series, we've exchanged messages on Facebook in which she's called me assy, but definitely not classy. She's called me a weak ass journo and that it's about time I was brought into line.

[Alana Smith]

This will be a one way conversation, but I'm all ears.

[Dan Box]

Dan, when you say one way conversation, how do you mean?

[Alana Smith]

Well, it'll be you talking because I truly have nothing, honestly nothing to say to you. I've articulated my thoughts and my feelings about what you and your current colleagues are doing and how you are skewing and I don't give a fuck, Dan.

[Unknown Journalist]

Alana says I'm skewing the facts.

[Alana Smith]

The facts pertain within that brief of evidence because there is nothing that I have further need to say to you that isn't already abundantly clear within the documents. Sure you're getting clicks, sure you're getting paid, sure you're hanging out with the fucking big boys, but your morals and your ethics are in the gutter. And shame on you, Dan Box.

[Unknown Journalist]

Basically, Alana doesn't like the way we've made this podcast.

[Alana Smith]

What is it that you fucking want from me? Apart from the truth? And I'm giving it to you. I'd have you and Gary Jublin in a court of law in a fucking heartbeat.

[Unknown Journalist]

She says we're pursuing a narrative, one that she does not agree with.

[Alana Smith]

Shame on you. Because you choose every goddamn day to get out of bed and put your fucking fancy pants on and continue to go down this contractual shit fuckery. And there's only one person to blame apart from yourself. You. You, you, yourself and yourself.

[Dan Box]

Can I?

[Alana Smith]

I have nothing to say. And the people that I'm gonna say it to. I said it online, actually, I said shit about you on an open forum. I went and said that on. Listen, I hope we recorded. I truly hope we're recorded.

[Dan Box]

Oh, yeah, we are. Yeah. You said you. You said you're recording and I am.

[Alana Smith]

As well, and I don't hope I'm not listening. There'll be a push for a fucking God dev inquiry one way or another, come hell or high water.

[Dan Box]

Can I ask you a couple of things?

[Alana Smith]

Alanation trial.

[Dan Box]

Alana, can I ask you something?

[Alana Smith]

No. Well, whether you can ask or I'll allow you to ask me whether I've.

[Dan Box]

Yeah, 100%. You don't have to answer. I just wanted to ask. There's a couple of things I'm interested in. You talked about putting things online. You've obviously said a lot about William's foster parents. You've said they're murderers, you've said they're pedophiles and so on.

[Alana Smith]

Yep, sure. We got taken a court over it, got fucking tried about it, you know. Yeah, and we'll go again because fucking. We'll go again if that's getting into court. Pushing the boundaries is the only fucking way.

[Dan Box]

You don't have any evidence of that.

[Alana Smith]

How you got the fucking files? How I got the fucking files?

[Dan Box]

That's actually my second question. That's the second thing I'm interested in. You have shared documents from the brief of evidence with journalists.

[Alana Smith]

So I don't know what you're talking about.

[Dan Box]

I've got you on tape doing it, Alana.

[Alana Smith]

Sure, sure. And if I have, then. If I have, then it's been in private and that's what journalists do.

[Dan Box]

But why have you shared documents from the. But why did you share documents from the brief of evidence in a live homicide investigation?

[Alana Smith]

The same reason I started the petition. The same reason I told a supreme court judge to go fuck himself. The same reason I continue to argue the point to you and every other journal. The same reason why I continue to tell you that you're a lie life scumbag on a moral principle because there's a fucking child missing in state.

[Dan Box]

So you, you shared those, you shared those police documents Because I don't give a.

[Alana Smith]

You want to get litigious?

[Dan Box]

I'm not. I'm definitely not threatening you with legal action. I'm just trying to understand.

[Alana Smith]

Yes, quite okay for you to do that.

[Dan Box]

I definitely am not threatening. I've got no interest in legal action. But I am trying to understand why you would share documents, why you'd share police documents from a live homicide investigation, other reporters.

[Alana Smith]

Why does what you receive other people's brief of evidence documents in your own inbox. Dan, before you ask the questions of me, how about you make sure that your own fucking bed, your own inbox, your own nest is clean?

[Dan Box]

100% people have sent me those documents. But there's a difference between receiving them and sharing them. And I'm just curious as to.

[Alana Smith]

And we'll argue that point out like I did in a criminal trial or any other trial.

[Dan Box]

There's no criminal trial because I don't even know if there's a criminal offense. But I am interested in why you did it.

[Alana Smith]

Dude, I'm baiting, it's biting. This has gone on long enough. This is stupid. Absolutely stupid. One way or another, regardless whether what I've said, regardless of who is guilty, what you're doing and the narrative in which you're running is filthy. That's it. You want to get higher. You want to understand why I've done certain things. I've just given you. I've just left. You asked me a question and I've given you an honest 10 point answer as to why I do the things that I do.

[Dan Box]

You did it because you think it's in the. You think it's in the public interest.

[Alana Smith]

Not for a dirty pay packet. Not for a dirty old fucking pay packet, Dan. Not to sell my soul. Not to get a fucking leg up in the media. Fucking. Not to. Not to get on, jump onto the biggest fucking case there is to make a name for yourself in your new job. I do everything that I do authentically from my fucking heart because of those children.

[Dan Box]

Have you thought about the possible damage you might do to the investigation by sharing those documents?

[Alana Smith]

The investigation knows who I am. They know where I live. There's been nothing come at me. What were the facts? What were the context? What was. Yeah, well, let's put it in context.

[Dan Box]

So is that why you shared them, Alana? Is that why you shared them? So people will understand the facts?

[Alana Smith]

Probably not even about that. It's about the child.

[Unknown Journalist]

By child, Alana, means I think it's about William.

[Alana Smith]

How many times have I said it's about the child and about the child. About child, about child, about child, about child, about child.

[Dan Box]

Why do you care so much about William?

[Alana Smith]

Because I do. Because of what's happening to him. The way in which it's happened. The arse covering that the government do, the gaslighting that they do, the way that the media in which cover it or don't cover it. The way in which the government and the parliament use and abuse legislation to protect their own fucking goddamn arse. There's a whole myriad of reasons why I want to be invested or why I am. Apart from the fact that I too was a little William at one stage and fucking forcibly removed from my mother.

[Unknown Journalist]

Like William, Alana was taken from her birth family and put into foster care. Her experience of that was awful. And I don't pretend to understand what she's been through, but she and I are going to have to agree to disagree on other things.

[Alana Smith]

I do lay there at night sometimes and I think to myself, Dan is an unredeemable fucking low life prick. But I still don't understand why he's chosen the road that he has.

[Dan Box]

So are you asking me why we're doing what we're doing?

[Alana Smith]

Why are you doing what you're doing with the narrative in which you're doing it, Dan?

[Dan Box]

Look, the only narrative we're trying to tell is to look at the investigation from the beginning and what was done right and what was done wrong. That's been our starting point.

[Alana Smith]

There needs to be an inquiry. What do you think about an inquiry then? On record?

[Dan Box]

I'd love to see a public inquiry into this.

[Alana Smith]

Why aren't you pushing for once?

[Dan Box]

Because it's not really my job. My job is to report the facts and not to call for things.

[Alana Smith]

Why aren't you pushing and advocating for them?

[Dan Box]

Because I'm not an advocate, I'm a journalist and my job is to report the facts as best we can. It's not my job to advocate for things.

[Alana Smith]

You haven't been doing that, you know.

[Dan Box]

I promise you we've been trying to.

[Unknown Journalist]

Listening back. I think that's a weak answer. So, Alana, if you're listening, I would love to see a public inquiry into the William TYRRELL investigation and 10 years on with no answers about what happened to him. I think there should be an inquiry and I know from speaking to them for this podcast that Bill Spedding and Gary Jublin, they both think the same. There's one last thing I ask, Alana.

[Dan Box]

Where did you get the brief of evidence from? Alana, you listen.

[Alana Smith]

I've been a part. I've been an advocate for the biological family for the last eight years. My goodness.

[Dan Box]

I was, I was told you got. I was told you got them from the biological family.

[Alana Smith]

Listen, I've done it all. Where did I get the brief of evidence? Where do I get any court documents? Where do I get any family information?

[Dan Box]

So you got it from the biological family?

[Alana Smith]

How dare you. Because I worked as an advocate for that fucking family and I continued to do that.

[Dan Box]

I. Look, it's no criticism, it's. I'm curious. So you got it from the biological family?

[Alana Smith]

I'm not saying I did. I'm not saying.

[Unknown Journalist]

I'm saying I was told, but I.

[Dan Box]

Was told you did.

[Alana Smith]

Stop asking stupid questions because you sound stupid. Whatever.

[Dan Box]

Is there anything else you wanted to say to me?

[Alana Smith]

What do you mean? What do you think? Apart from all the fucks, Dan, and that you shit fuckery and that, that you're morally low in what you're doing?

[Dan Box]

No, I got. I got all of that.

[Unknown Journalist]

Yeah, I got it. But there is a problem here because I spoke to Natalie Collins, William's biological grandmother, who denies giving Alana the brief of evidence and says Alana is no longer acting as an advocate for her family. And said some other things about Alana and about William's foster parents, which I'm not going to repeat here because they're offensive and there's no evidence to support them. Just like the things Alana's been saying online about William's foster parents. They're insults and they're not true. But now there are all these different voices. William's birth and foster families, the police, people who say they are advocates for something. Those posting lies and abuse online, and reporters and editors who were all talking and sharing confidential information, getting louder and nastier in what they're saying to each other. And online. Even before that front page story about William's foster mother, she and her husband had become targets.

[News Anchor]

Cold, cold people they are.

[Dave Laidlaw]

How do they sleep at night?

[Unknown Journalist]

William has been murdered.

[News Anchor]

Cocaine addict.

[Unknown Journalist]

I'm interested in seeing him in handcuffs. William Tyrrell was tortured, raped and murdered.

[News Anchor]

Motley crew of pedophile mates.

[Unknown Journalist]

Pedophile rapist dog.

[Alana Smith]

William has been murdered by his narcissistic psychopath foster mother and the corpse then.

[Dave Laidlaw]

Dismembered and quartered for disposal by the besotted foster father.

[Unknown Journalist]

These are lies. They're false. But they still added to the pressure on the couple who throughout the time they were under police investigation, were also managing the fallout of William's disappearance on another child who was living with them and who we can't identify for legal reasons. William's foster parents were also providing emergency and respite care for other children at the request of the state government's Department of Community and Justice. A court will later hear from one of the department staff saying William's foster parents were often called upon to help out when the department was in a jam. And the corporate view of the department was that they were very responsible and trustworthy parents. But these kids aren't always easy to look after, taken from their birth families by the state, often dealing with their own trauma. So that's pressure. At around the same time, the COVID pandemic shut Australia's borders and sent Sydney into lockdown. So that's pressure. Then in December 2020, William's foster nana died. William's foster parents suspected a cop who turned up at the funeral was wearing a wire. And they're not wrong about being under surveillance. The police put five listening devices and two cameras in place in the foster parents home, plus intercepts on their mobile phones. And these run for nearly a full year, meaning in total something over 60,000 hours of surveillance, from which the cops gather over a thousand hours of recordings. Among them, the police record William's foster parents arranging for someone to place dummy bids when they sell their home at auction, which frankly is stupid and greedy and illegal. But it happens and the cops will charge them with dishonestly obtain financial advantage or cause disadvantage by deception, which carries a maximum 10 year prison sentence. So that's pressure only. The cops later withdraw this and the couple plead guilty to a lesser charge and a fined $3,000.

[News Anchor]

It must feel like the police are hounding you. You're not going to make any comments.

[Unknown Journalist]

Thank you.

[Dave Laidlaw]

Did you have anything to do with William's disappearance? I'm not going to make any more comments. Thank you.

[Unknown Journalist]

The listening devices also record arguments between William's foster parents and the child, a teenager. I can't play those recordings for legal reasons because the police charged William's foster parents over these recordings also.

[Mark Murray]

Are you disgusted hearing how you spoke.

[Dave Laidlaw]

To that little girl?

[Mark Murray]

Do you see how bad a look.

[Unknown Journalist]

This is, given you're a person of.

[Dave Laidlaw]

Interest in Williams display appearance?

[Unknown Journalist]

I've sat in court listening to these recordings more than once and they're unpleasant listening in the worst, you hear disembodied voices. It takes a while to work out it's a child. The child shouts, no. Go away. Go away. There is a long, indistinct, drawn out crying. William's foster mother says, get up. Stand up. Stand up. Then she asks the child, where did you put the wooden spoon? The child says, it's behind there. No, please, no, no. The foster mother says, move your hand. There's the sound of an impact. She says, sit. You can hear the child crying. It sounds bad and it is bad in court on either side. I can sense the other journalists feel revolted and I do too. But it also sounds like a family that's not working, where people are breaking under pressure. Also listening in the courtroom is the former lead detective, Gary Jublin, and during a break he and I Go outside and we talk about what we just heard. What did you make of that?

[I]

The two recordings that were played. While I did notice. You listen to that recording that's confronting. There's a child screaming. Yeah, but it was a child screaming.

[Mark Murray]

Screaming.

[I]

It wasn't. There was no. It wasn't someone that lost their temper. It wasn't the adult screaming irrationally. It was a child screaming now.

[Unknown Journalist]

Yeah, but a child could be screaming because you're really hurting that child.

[I]

That didn't sound like that.

[Unknown Journalist]

We listened to that twice. The first time I listened to that and I thought, that sounds really bad. That sounds like a child in absolute distress.

[Dave Laidlaw]

Yeah.

[I]

I thought it was very interesting. And we only bearing in mind we heard a very small snippet, which is obviously what the prosecution want as the worst snippet. I'm going to call the police. That was a child that was contained, not a child that was in pain or injured. Then it just escalated that the child escalated it.

[Unknown Journalist]

We might have to agree to disagree on that. I heard a parent going off at their child and a child in utter distress screaming and screaming. But if you recorded.

[Dan Box]

I don't actually feel very comfortable saying this, but if you recorded some of the.

[Unknown Journalist]

Of the worst conversations I've had with my kids, they might not have sounded much.

[I]

I would say the same thing then. And I raised my children in a house. No violence or threats or whatsoever.

[Unknown Journalist]

The police charge William's foster mother with assault and she pleads guilty. She also pleads guilty to a second assault charge over a kick on the same child, which happens during another argument where the child was going to kick another, much younger child who the family were looking after. The foster mother kicks the older child to stop her, then says, now you know how it feels. Do you think you want to make that decision again? The older child cries, and later, on a telephone intercept, the foster mother tells a friend, I'm ashamed. I can't believe it happened, but I lost it. In another phone call the same day. She says, I'm not used to being like this. I'm not coping. The problem is we've got this investigation hanging over our heads. The police believe we did something to William. How do I live with that? How do I live being looked at? When the foster mother checks the elder child later, the kick doesn't leave a mark. But all the time the cops are listening. One court will later hear the detectives knew about this first assault with the spoon as early as the next day because they're listening, but they don't remove the child. In fact, they leave that child living with William's foster parents for almost a full year after. And you have to ask, if the police really believe the child is in danger, why wait so long? And there are other recordings for which the detectives investigating William's disappearance will charge the foster parents with intimidation, but where the magistrate hearing the case will say she's listened to the entire recordings and will say those parts that were played in court have not been put into their proper context by the prosecution. And that the transcript of the recordings provided by the prosecution doesn't always match the words that she heard on the recordings. And she'll say it can hardly be said the alleged intimidation was continuous and that having listened repeatedly to the whole of the recordings, she views the child's call for help as calls for help with cleaning her room, a frustrated young girl at the end of her tether. And the magistrate will say the recordings aren't nice, but they don't go far enough to demonstrate criminal intent to intimidate. And it's also true that in court, we hear only minutes, or at most, I think, a couple of hours of the thousand or more hours the police recorded. But outside one of the court hearings, the police prosecutor will come out and he'll walk over and start talking to the reporters who were sitting about to file their stories. And the reporters will say the tapes sound awful. And the prosecutor will say how he has kids and the first time he listened to them, he was chain smoking and drinking wine. And he'll say, there's a damn sight more that I can't share with you. And he'll say it would have been easier for him to close the court, so the hearing took place in private, but that it's in the interests of justice for people to hear this. And every day the detectives investigating William's disappearance will be in the courtroom, despite the fact that these offences have nothing to do with what happened to William and took place years after he disappeared. And at one point, the police prosecutor will say in court that this case isn't about William Tyrrell. But if it's not, and it's only about a kick on a different child, then why is the strike force here? And later, that same police prosecutor will turn up at the inquest hearing into William's disappearance, sitting with the detectives and talking to the police lawyers, because really, these other charges have everything to do with the investigation into William's disappearance. One of the strike force detectives, Andrew Lonergan, will later say this in court, saying he thinks they, quote, go to the Character of propensity of violence to children. But most of the charges the police bring against William's parents end with not guilty verdicts and the couple are now appealing others.

[Mark Murray]

A major blow for police. A major victory for their latest target, William Tyrrell's foster mother, leaving court and overwhelmed after the magistrate let her off.

[Unknown Journalist]

Not guilty isn't really a major victory.

[Alana Smith]

How has the pressure been these past few years?

[Unknown Journalist]

The pressure continues. The detectives visit the foster mother's family and friends, asking questions had they ever seen her angry as a parent, ever seen her lose control? The police investigation morphs into a joint investigation with something called the New South Wales Crime Commission, which was set up to prevent, disrupt and reduce the incidents of organized and other serious crime. The crime commission works in secret. You actually can't tell anybody you've been called there to give evidence and it has unrivaled powers. It can force people to give evidence, make them answer questions. In October 2021, two of the detectives visit William's foster mother at home to give her an order that she's to face questions at the crime commission. A court will later hear how one of those two men, who's a short, red faced detective called Andrew Lonergan, tells William's foster mother, it's not personal and we're not here to fucking bluff. The other detective, who's a big swaggering man called Scott Jameson, tells her, you'll have to live with it. We aren't guessing. We know why, we know how, we know where he is. William's foster mother says, I'm actually trying, I'm trying to breathe. You're actually now saying I tried to hurt William? Andrew Lonergan says, we're not saying you hurt him. Scott Jameson says again, we're saying we know why it happened, we know how it happened and we know where he is. But we know from the inquest that the police don't know those things. They have no forensic or witness evidence of what happened to William. Andrew Lonergan will later say in court that he was telling the truth. During this exchange inside the crime Commission, William's foster mother is questioned over two days. She's asked over and over and over did she have anything to do with William's disappearance. And over and over she says no.

[News Anchor]

Cocaine is a global industry where the profits are counted up in millions and the losses measured out in murders because it's only business. And right now business is good.

[Mark Murray]

And I'm like, torture seller, what are you talking about?

[Unknown Journalist]

I don't think we can arrest our.

[News Anchor]

Way out of this. Listen to Cocaine Inc. Wherever you get your podcasts or visit cocaineinc.com au are you ready to get.

[Gary Jubelin]

An inside look at crime from someone who has investigated some of Australia's worst crimes?

[Unknown Journalist]

It was like Aladdin's Cove. The Luminole found bloodied footprints and bloodied handprints on a wall. So it's just like a horror movie.

[Gary Jubelin]

Former homicide detective Gary Jubilant sits down with cops, crims, addicts, victims, small time cheats and big town lawyers as they tell their incredible stories.

[Unknown Journalist]

My house got raided. Next thing you know I got bail refused. Next thing you know I'm on a.

[I]

Truck to Park Lee Prison.

[Gary Jubelin]

Listen to I Catch Killers early and ad free on Crymax plus on Apple Podcasts today or where wherever you get your podcasts.

[Unknown Journalist]

While William's foster mother's giving this evidence, the child who's been living with her and her husband is at school. A detective from the strike force arrives without warning. The child doesn't know why the detective is there. She thinks maybe it's to do with William. The detective takes the child from class for an interview, asking her 751 questions which a magistrate will later describe as being of a patently leading nature, such as, has William's foster father ever hurt you? Has anyone ever put you in time out? Has he ever grabbed your neck when you tried to get out of time out? When was that? She says she doesn't know that child will never go home to William's foster parents. The next day she'll call a family friend and leave this message with which we've asked someone else to read out.

[Dan Box]

I'm at someone else's house, a foster.

[Alana Smith]

Home, and I want to go to.

[Mark Murray]

Your house instead of this one.

[Unknown Journalist]

I've sent emails from detectives on the strike force to state government officials saying they don't want this child to have any contact with William's foster family or friends. The police also take out an apprehended violence order, preventing contact, even phone calls. It's not certain if their Christmas presents are passed on to her and it's been years now, during which time this child must have gone online and seen what people have written about William's foster parents. I've got a daughter around the same age. I look at her and I can't imagine what being treated like this would do to her. So when I look at all the people who've been caught up in the investigation into William's disappearance, this child is the first person I think of and I find myself actually Hoping the police are right about what happened to William. Because at least then what's happened to this child is justified. Because if the police are not right, then the damage done to this child is just too great.

[Dave Laidlaw]

We were just a regular family.

[Unknown Journalist]

This is that child's cousin. Her aunt is William's foster mother.

[Dan Box]

Tell me about William. When did you first meet him?

[Dave Laidlaw]

I think it was not long after he came into their care. He was only a baby. I mostly remember him as more of a toddler. He was full of energy. My nana would always say he was full of beans, that was her saying. And he was just happy and giggly. He would run around the house when we were there for occasions, being just super excited to see people and the buzz that was happening because it was a Christmas or a birthday. I looked after him one time I babysat for a few hours in an evening and he would want to play monkey in the bed when I put him to bed.

[Dan Box]

There was a girl as well, who we can't name. How do you remember her from that time?

[Dave Laidlaw]

She would dob on him when he wanted to play monkey in the bed. And she was just the same. She loved, just loved, loved, loved when we came over, loved to see family, wanted to play. She was still pretty young then as well.

[Unknown Journalist]

Would you say they were a happy family?

[Dave Laidlaw]

Yes, absolutely.

[Unknown Journalist]

This was before William went missing and the police investigation.

[Dan Box]

Obviously, we both know what happened to. Well, no, we don't know what happened to William. William went missing.

[Unknown Journalist]

You remember that?

[Dave Laidlaw]

I found out via Facebook I was studying and, well, I was meant to be studying and I was on Facebook and I saw the picture that came up from, I think, New South Wales Police that there was a missing boy. And I remember thinking, no, it can't be. But I don't think I understood the gravity at that moment of what was happening. That took days, I think, to realize. And I went up there shortly after.

[Dan Box]

How long after?

[Dave Laidlaw]

I think it took me a couple of days to get up there. And then I saw my uncle and my aunt and it became apparent that this was, yeah, a real situation and it wasn't good.

[Dan Box]

And in the years since then, you.

[Unknown Journalist]

Stayed close to the.

[Dan Box]

To your cousin?

[Dave Laidlaw]

Yes.

[Unknown Journalist]

How was she going?

[Dave Laidlaw]

This is probably really bad, but I always tried to, like, not focus on William. I don't know. It's trauma as a difficult thing for a kid to process. So my relationship was always to just treat her as I had always done and try and not highlight the trauma that had happened in her life and to give her the most normal relationship with people. So I didn't. We didn't really talk about it. I just tried to carry on and give her, you know, just that normalcy.

[Dan Box]

Can I maybe skip forward in time? So obviously you would have seen the newspapers the same way everyone saw the newspapers about the police having a new suspect.

[Dave Laidlaw]

Yeah. But then I was contacted by the police and.

[Dan Box]

Can you tell me what happened?

[Dave Laidlaw]

I received an email from my dad telling me to contact these detectives because they wanted to speak to me. I had a formal, an informal telephone conversation with two detectives and seemed very casual, very kind of almost light hearted to start with. They asked me what I thought had happened and they asked me what my Nana thought had happened. And, you know, Nana has always been the same. Like she'd only ever really thought whoever they had just, you know, recently highlighted as a suspect might be the person. And then they just went, well, what do you think? Do you think he was just plucked out of thin air? And I think they suggested that aliens had beamed him up. And I said, well, obviously not. And then they were asking me about my aunt and uncle specifically and how they were with William and my cousin and they tried to leave. Well, did they try to leave me? They tried to suggest that children can misbehave and how my aunt and uncle managed that. And I started to realise that they were actually looking at them and I asked them that and they said yes.

[Dan Box]

How did you feel about that?

[Dave Laidlaw]

Shook. It really just shook me. I couldn't believe it and I was shaking and I got off the phone and I think I screamed into the air because it's just. It was so frustrating the way that they had constructed this conversation without, I suppose, being. I mean, they're the police, they're not going to be very transparent in situations like that. But I feel like they'd led me down a path and I called my aunt immediately after and I said, they're looking at you and Nana. Actually, at that point they were suggesting that Nana had something to do with it as well. And they were asking me about her death and whether she'd said anything on her deathbed and, you know, things that just really. It was an upsetting conversation. So I think that's what they were trying to do. I think they were trying to rattle the cage.

[Unknown Journalist]

And how did your aunt respond when.

[Dan Box]

You told her that?

[Dave Laidlaw]

To be honest, it seemed like it was the first time that she'd heard that. And she was so upset for a number of reasons, but for the most part she was upset, upset. The fact that they were actually just not even looking for William. If they were looking at her, it meant they were wasting their time. That they actually didn't have any proper leads, that they actually didn't have any idea of what had happened to William and that I think it just all hope just felt like it had gone.

[Unknown Journalist]

Around the time William's foster mother was facing questions at the crime commission, the police seized a car, a gray Mazda 3 that used to be owned by William's foster nanner. William's foster mother had told police she drove that car to look for him. On the morning when William was reported.

[Dave Laidlaw]

Missing, the police just seized it. One day they just turned up. It was at my partner's parents house and they just turned up with a cameraman and a tow truck and took it.

[Dan Box]

And the cameraman who turned up with the tow truck was to film themselves seizing the car?

[Dave Laidlaw]

Yes.

[Dan Box]

And did you ever see the footage that they took of themselves seizing the.

[Dave Laidlaw]

Car when it aired on the news? Yes.

[Dan Box]

And were you told that was going to be released to the media?

[Dave Laidlaw]

No.

[Unknown Journalist]

That footage of the car being seized was sent to journalists around the same time as police launched the latest huge forensic search of the area around where William went missing. It's carefully stage managed.

[Detective Chief Inspector]

David Laidlaw, L A I D L A W Detective Chief Inspector at the Homicide Squad.

[Unknown Journalist]

The police film themselves at work and send this footage to the TV stations.

[Detective Chief Inspector]

We are here today at Kendall in relation to the circumstances surrounding William missing from this residence seven years ago. The investigation, the executive team is here together with the local detectives and also with the forensic personnel to have another look at the scene here and also the area around Kendall.

[Unknown Journalist]

This search for evidence in the car and outside Kendall takes place months after that front page story saying police are confident they've cracked the case. And those detectives told William's foster mother, we know why it happened, we know how it happened and we know where he is.

[Dave Laidlaw]

They were looking for evidence.

[Dan Box]

So how long did they have the car for?

[Dave Laidlaw]

Over 12 months. They said it had to go to the panel beater and they sent me through the panel beaters report.

[Dan Box]

So they'd done enough work to the car that it had to be substantially repaired afterwards.

[Dave Laidlaw]

Yeah, but it seems to me that almost every panel in the car was replaced.

[Unknown Journalist]

I've seen the list of repairs to that Mazda. The front bumper, the headlights, new door handles, new door mirror, new rear bumper, new cabin and boot trims. The list goes on. It looks like the police took that car to pieces and found nothing. Which is all the police find in their excavation of the area around Kendall where William was reported missing. At which point you have to ask, when does legitimate police investigation and putting pressure on a suspect trip over into harassment or malicious prosecution of the kind we've seen before in the William Tyrrell investigation with the very first suspect, the washing machine repairman Bill Spedding. The police would go on to charge William's foster parents with lying during their questioning by the Crime Commission. But both foster parents would be found not guilty. That would take more rounds of court hearings and hostile headlines. And after the last of these, the foster parents will go home to a silent house that no longer has any children in it. While I catch the lift down from the courtroom to the ground floor, along with the detectives from the strike force inside, we all stand cramped together, me, the cops in their dark suits and a few lawyers. I will look at the lead detective, David Laidlaw, and say, honestly, I wasn't expecting a not guilty result. He looks at me and is defiant, Almost dismissing the court verdict. He says common sense did not prevail. The lift doors open and we walk out in silence. Looking back on everything that has happened.

[Dan Box]

How do you feel now?

[Dave Laidlaw]

I still feel really frustrated and angry.

[Unknown Journalist]

Angry at who?

[Dave Laidlaw]

Angry at whoever took William and started this and ruined so many lives. Angry at the police in recent years, frustrated that they haven't found anything. One of my nana's greatest regrets and what she would say in the moments before she passed away, was that she would never know. But angry for, like, what it's done to my family and it's changed, it's just turned everyone's lives upside down completely and life will never be the same.

[Unknown Journalist]

I think we'll leave it there. But that isn't the end. I mentioned how the police sent a brief of evidence to the state's Director of Public Prosecutions seeking advice on whether to charge William's foster mother over disposing of his body. Well, the DPP did look at it and started asking questions. The detectives were sent back to talk to some of the witnesses again, asking things like, did William's foster mother have access to any other cars that morning? That took days, which turned into weeks, which turned into months, then silence. And then the New South Wales Police Force asked the DPP to suspend its consideration of the brief of evidence until the end of the inquest into William's disappearance, which is still running and will now come back next week for what it says will be its final hearing. And we will be there. That's in the next episode of Witness. William Tyrrell A lot of different people.

[Dan Box]

Have been involved in making this series.

[Unknown Journalist]

Among them, the executive producer is Nina Young. The sound design was by Tiffany Dimac. The producers have been Emily Pidgeon, Nicholas Adams Jasbar, Phoebe Zukowski Wallace and Tabby Wilson.

[Dan Box]

Research by Aidan Patrick A Original music by Rory O'Connor.

[Unknown Journalist]

Voice acting in this episode by Beth Box.

[Dan Box]

Our lawyer is Stephen Coombs.

[Unknown Journalist]

The editor at news.comau is Kerry Warren. I'm Dan Box.

[Gary Jubelin]

The podcast Faith on Trial looks into Hillsong both in Australia and the US and takes both the listener and hosts on unexpected twists and turns. In the story of Brian Houston and.

[Unknown Journalist]

The singing preachers, there are two incidents involving Pastor Brian.

[Gary Jubelin]

The Australian journalists uncovered a litany of alleged criminal behavior in the megachurch.

[Unknown Journalist]

Financial gifts were being given to the.

[Gary Jubelin]

Leaders of the church. Listen to Faith on Trial Hillsong ad free on CrimeX plus, on Apple Podcasts today or wherever you get your podcasts.

[J]

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