← Women & ADHD
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- [00:00]
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- [00:27]
Talkspace Advertiser
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- [01:27]
Krystal Wang
A lot of people think that therapy and coaching are the same or they don't really understand or, or the whole medical realm and coaching. But coaching is so different and has a completely different set of outcomes and, and purpose as to why, why it exists.
- [01:44]
Katie Weber
Hello and welcome to the Women and ADHD Podcast. I'm your host, Katie Weber. I was diagnosed with ADHD at the age of 45 and and it completely turned my world upside down. I've been looking back at so much of my life, school, jobs, my relationships, all of it with this new lens and it has been nothing short of overwhelming. I quickly discovered I was not the only woman to have this experience. And now I interview other women who, like me, discovered in adulthood they have ADHD and are finally feeling like they understand who they are and how to best lean into their strengths and both professionally and personally.
- [02:24]
Hello.
- [02:25]
Hello. Welcome back to another brand new episode of the Women in ADHD Podcast. Here we are at episode 191 in which I interview Krystal Wang. Krystal is the co founder and CEO of Shimmer, the first ever comprehensive behavioral tech platform for adults with adhd. Chris started Shimmer after she was diagnosed with ADHD as an adult and she is now on a mission to create a more neuro inclusive, inclusive world for all neurodivergent individuals. Chris is A recognized Forbes 30 under 30 entrepreneur with a strong belief in using business as a force for good. As a queer neurodivergent AAPI woman, she is deeply invested in advocating for and supporting these communities. Chris shares how her Asian upbringing and cultural stigma around mental health diagnoses initially delayed her ADHD diagnosis. She also talks about the challenges she faced in finding affordable, culturally competent ADHD care and coaching, which inspired her to create Shimmer. We also talk about the unique strengths of ADHD entrepreneurs, including drive and a desire to challenge the status quo. And we chat all about the amazing resources and support that are offered at Shimmer, including personalized one on one video coaching, productivity tools and learning modules. You can find a link to Shimmer in the show notes and if you use the code WomenADHD at signup, you'll get 30% off the first month. And that applies to adult coaching, teen coaching or any product. Again, use the link in my show notes for 30% off when you use the code WomenADHD. Okay, without further ado, here is my interview with Crystal.
- [04:09]
Well, welcome Chris. Thank you so much for joining me. And let's start with your diagnosis because it wasn't that long ago, right? It was 2021.
- [04:18]
Krystal Wang
It was actually 2022. So two years ago. Just a little bit over two years ago.
- [04:23]
Katie Weber
Wow. Okay. And what was the timeline between your diagnosis and founding Shimmer?
- [04:30]
Krystal Wang
So pretty much right away. So basically I was looking. The short story is I was looking for a specific behavioral solution that I after a while figured out didn't really exist. And then I partnered with a few coaches who are first two coaches and that's how Shimmer was born. But I feel like it's a pretty ADHD thing to just go and solve your own problem with a small business.
- [04:52]
Katie Weber
I know, right? I'm like, we don't have ideas, we start new businesses. That's what I always say. But yeah, I think it's a very ADHD thing to do, to just be like within a few months to completely rehaul your life and start something new.
- [05:07]
Krystal Wang
Yeah, I was thinking about that when I was listening to some of your podcasts over the last few weeks as well. I was like, wow, it's wild that you got to do this over the first few years of you discovering more about your adhd. And all podcasters get to do that.
- [05:22]
Katie Weber
Oh, my God. It's how I've learned about. I totally feel like I'm getting my PhD in ADHD just through these conversations because it's been so valuable. And my editor, even my podcast editor, Emily, I'll shout out to you. Like, she always says that she feels like she's getting free coaching by listening to the episode. So, yeah, we'll get into all that because I have coaching questions that'll come up later. But first, I want to hear about your diagnosis. You were in grad school at the time. What was happening in your life that led you to start thinking you should look into this?
- [05:57]
Krystal Wang
Yeah. So without going into the childhood stuff, since I think we're gonna go there, I think there was kind of two really big moments for me. The first one actually wasn't the diagnosis. The first one was I was in grad school during the pandemic, like, right after the pandemic, where they kept promising. Obviously it wasn't their fault, but they kept promising that we're gonna go in person. So we kept having that hope hanging above us, but then we weren't. And so everything we did was online. Every single course, everything, a single socializing event. And I was just stuck behind this computer. Just could not focus on class. I kept just switching to another tab and realizing that I had missed, like, full chapters or full segments. I would get cold, called all the time and not be able to know what was happening. So I actually ended up dropping out of grad school after three months. So that was pre diagnosis, but that was a really big struggle, which I think around that time, TikTok started getting me. TikTok started sending me the signals that, here's ADHD, here's the symptoms. And only about a year or two after that. So I don't. So I guess that was like. I would call it, like, the marinating phase of, like, I now am aware of what ADHD is. I definitely see myself in it, but I have not, I guess, had that trigger to seek a diagnosis. And the diagnosis point was actually when I had actually already started Shimmer, which used to be support groups. It used to be a different business model, support groups for loneliness and for anxiety throughout the pandemic. And I had no boss, no structure. Our team started growing. I needed to put structure on other people, and I was constantly dropping the ball and things. People were constantly Getting upset at me and I just didn't have structure. And that was when things started snowballing. And that was actually when I sought the diagnosis. Not because I was struggling, but because I was creating a lot of chaos and struggle around me. And that was when I was like, okay, I need to do something about this. And I had the marination of years, maybe not years, maybe like a year or so of marination in my head already. And that was when I started seeking the diagnosis, when all of the structure was gone, added onto that. Everything was online.
- [08:12]
Katie Weber
Yeah.
- [08:12]
Krystal Wang
And I had no in person interaction.
- [08:15]
Katie Weber
Right. Yeah. I mean, I was diagnosed during the pandemic as well, for, you know, I wasn't in school, thankfully. But. Yeah. It's so interesting how, you know, looking back through history, how we're going to look back at this time of COVID and the pandemic and lockdown and the mental health repercussions, especially with adhd, diagnosis is going to be super fascinating.
- [08:37]
Krystal Wang
Yeah.
- [08:38]
Katie Weber
I think we're still learning every day. Yeah.
- [08:41]
Krystal Wang
It is truly phenomenal. I think we still, because we lived through it, it still isn't as wild as people who did not live through it and who are growing up are going to be like, mom, tell me about this. I can't believe that happened.
- [08:57]
Katie Weber
Right. You also mentioned loneliness and that this started as a support group. Is that. Were those some of the symptoms that TikTok you were relating to, or what was the algorithm telling you about yourself?
- [09:10]
Krystal Wang
Oh, so they always talk about the little boy who's bouncing off of walls. I am that little boy bouncing off of walls. I actually perfectly fit the. The stereotype of what ADHD looks like in childhood. And so I saw all of me and all of TikTok, not just the woman in ADHD TikTok, but just everything of ADHD. And then that sent me down many different rabbit holes. And the reason I believe that I actually wasn't diagnosed as a kid because I think that I had all the symptoms that I should have been diagnosed, is actually because I grew up in an Asian family with all the different types of stigma and denial and expectations and different incentives as a kid that you're actually told to do or indirectly or directly told to do. So I actually chalk my not being diagnosed up to being Asian more so than being a woman, which I know that for many folks who are women and have more inattentive symptoms have a really different experience than me.
- [10:13]
Katie Weber
Yeah. Now, you've talked about the hesitancy about Western medicine and Western diagnoses and mental health diagnoses in the past. And I know you've also talked about, like, mistreatment of doctors and medication and depression. So what was their reaction? Have you spoken to your parents about it?
- [10:35]
Krystal Wang
Yeah, so I'm queer and I came out as being pansexual a little bit earlier on. And I bring that up because. Because I did that now I can't say much to surprise my parents. When I told my mom this time, she was. I was like, I have something to tell you. And she's like, oh, no, not again. What is this? Um, and so she was more so just curious about what this thing was. She immediately went to start diagnosing my dad when I was telling her. I feel like she wasn't even listening about me. She was like, oh, that thing? Yes, Your dad does that. That thing? Oh, yeah, your dad's dad does that. And for context, they're divorced, but friends, and they like to harp on each other a little bit. So it was actually very telling because I was like, well, mom, you do know that it's really strongly genetic, hereditary, and it is likely that dad has undiagnosed adhd. And so it was actually a really good conversation. But I would not think that it would go that way, having an Asian family, if I hadn't gone through the process that I went through with my family for coming out as being queer, which in. On the scale of things, I guess, for. For her was larger.
- [11:45]
Katie Weber
I love that perspective. And, you know, we talk about, like, our parents not thinking it's ADHD because they're like, well, I do that. Your dad does that, right? Your grandfather did that. Your brother does that. So, like, how do you differentiate between what is a diagnosable disorder and what is just part of being human?
- [12:05]
Krystal Wang
Yeah, so I personally think it just has to do with, like, the level of everything. I think everyone. The whole reason why all TikTok is like, everyone has ADHD now is because there's a lot of relatable symptoms around executive function, around the inattention economy that's happening right now. And of course, a lot of it is relatable at a small scale. But if it's happening to you for your entire life, if it is getting in the way of your functioning, I think the DSM says, like, officially, to different areas of your life, where it's impairing your functioning, if it's getting in the way of who you think you are. So, for example, I think for a long time, I identified as being a rebel. Rebel is the nice word. But I just identified as being a bad kid, that other people's parents would be like, oh, like, don't hang out with Crystal, like you're going to get in trouble. So I think that when it gets to that level of extremity where it's spilling over into other areas of your life, your identity, if it's impairing multiple areas of your life. For me, throughout my life, it was different areas. I think that's when it becomes you may want to go to your healthcare provider to figure out if it's ADHD or if it's that just executive function. And I think that the line nowadays is a little bit, a little bit blurry as well. And I know we'll get into it. And that's why I like things like coaching and behavioral solutions that don't make you pick. You don't have to be diagnosed, you just have to want to work on yourself and your executive functioning and the whole of you, that is you.
- [13:32]
Katie Weber
I love that you said that. I talk about that with prospective clients all the time about, you know, the good news is whether we're talking about genetic adhd, whether we're talking about the trauma of being a feminist in post Trump America, you know, whether we're talking about menopause and hormones, it all comes down to executive functioning. And so there are very sort of cut and dry strategies to work with executive functioning. And so it's like you're going to benefit regardless. Like you said, if we figure out down the line that we've all been misdiagnosed and it's just trauma or something else, like the same strategies are going to work and be beneficial for anyone if you have ADHD or not, because they target structure and executive functioning. So if you're struggling with those things, then these will benefit you. I love that you call it Shimmer. What was the origin of the name?
- [14:25]
Krystal Wang
So shimmer is about. Everyone shimmers differently. So it's about figuring out what is the unabashed, unapologetic, sparkling version of yourself. So a lot of the times, I mean, us with adhd, we've been masking and pretending a lot of our life and still do, even though now we're diagnosed and free, but we're still masking all the time. And that is, I would say, like when you're not fully shimmering. And one of our many slogans, because I just love to come up with slogans, is everyone deserves to shimmer. And so it really is just about you being you and being that sparkly version of you. Whatever that looks like. It doesn't have to be loud. Mine is loud, but not everyone's as loud.
- [15:04]
Katie Weber
You know, I feel like people with ADHD often will use adjectives like glittery and sparkly and so, yeah, it kind of fits in with that whole narrative. So you mentioned that after you were diagnosed, you weren't finding the right care for you. Right. So it's in terms of either culturally competent care or just affordable ADHD care. So what. What were you looking for and what was not serving you?
- [15:37]
Krystal Wang
Yeah, so a little bit of background. When I was diagnosed, I actually. People always think I'm exaggerating, but I'm not. After my diagnosis, I was given 10 milligrams of Adderall and told me to 10 milligrams per day and was told to come back when I needed more or less. And coming from an Asian family who. I remember when I got sick as a kid, my grandma would make these orange bitter drinks that whenever I got a fever, she would just made from orange peels. She would like cut orange peels all day, then put them into this disgusting drink, and I would have to drink it all day. And I was like, why can't I.
- [16:16]
Katie Weber
Just have medicine like everyone else? I'm just dying here with my fever.
- [16:21]
Krystal Wang
But somehow that's obviously an extreme. And I. I'm not like that. I'm more third culture. I would say that I'm half western, half Chinese, but some of that is left over in my mind. So my natural inclination in any situation is to seek something that is either natural slash behavioral first and see how far I can go with that. And then if I need to layer medication, which I now do take medication, but I didn't start with medication. So I was looking for something that was behavioral. I didn't know what I was looking for at the moment. So I had looked into both therapy and coaching, which were the two behavioral solutions that I found. And I looked into many, many different apps and different tools. I very quickly found in the beginning that I wasn't looking for something that was an app because I was looking for something that could go a bit faster by having another human on the end. And also because it was all new to me and it was overwhelming. I wanted someone to just be able to bounce back at me, and I didn't want to just fall into Reddit rabbit holes all the time, which is what was happening in the beginning. So that kind of narrowed me down to therapy and coaching. And then I had tried both, and I had done many consultations I think for coaches specifically, I did over 12 or 13 consultations. And so my challenge that I found with that was, now I know a lot more about why this is the case. But I think every coach I talked to, they were so sure that they were the right coach for me because of the way that the. I would say maybe the landscape is set up. And I couldn't tell because they would all tell me that they were the right coach for me. And then also what would happen. I had this, like, crazy Excel sheet with like, 12 to, like 12 that I actually ended up talking to, but, like, more than 20. And I kept narrowing them down, and by the end, a lot of them didn't tell me the price until I would get to, like, after the first call. And then I would lose their emails. And it was just this big, chaotic thing. And then most of them were too expensive for me. Even the ones that I did, like, I couldn't remember which one was the one that I liked. So the whole process was just, like, too much for me. And so what I kind of boiled it down to was I wanted something that was behavioral, and I wanted someone to, like, just ask me some questions and then, like, match me with the right coach. I also was looking for something a little bit more affordable, and I'm also, like, pretty techie, so I wanted something that would, like, guide me, guide me through things and, like, ping me if I forgot something. So those were kind of like the little pieces that I started with. But the biggest, biggest thing was the affordability. That was, like, the number one thing that I was just, like, priced out of most of them. And I could think I could only afford, like, one or two of them. And by the time I figured that out, it kind of like the one or two of them. I couldn't really remember when I had talked to them because I talked to them in the beginning. So long winded answer to say I started with the affordability, and then I ended up partnering with two coaches who ended up both coaching me, which was perfect way for me to start my coaching journey. And then we just figured it out step by step to figure out eventually what Shimmer is today, and it will continue evolving as well.
- [19:24]
Katie Weber
Cool. That's amazing. It just has so much ADHD written all over it.
- [19:31]
Krystal Wang
I love that I was like, what aren't you gonna say here? But, yes, totally.
- [19:36]
Katie Weber
Well, just the way that you sort of create this structure when it's not there for you. Right. And, you know, like, I've talked about that with my podcast too. Where I, like, started the podcast before I even had my diagnosis. And I kept thinking, like, what am I doing? This is ridiculous. But it was like the train was on the tracks at that point. Like, I could not stop, stop. I just had to. And you know, I feel like that's when people are doubting whether they have ADHD or not, whether you've been diagnosed. Because I think self diagnosis is perfectly valid. Like, I'm like, if you're relating to everything you read and hear about ADHD in like, a visceral way, then that's your diagnosis as far as I'm concerned.
- [20:15]
Krystal Wang
Yeah. And I think similar to you with the podcast too, I think a lot of ADHDers that I've talked to now will relate. It's like, it's like there's this invisible string that's like, almost pulling you, and you're just following the string, but, like, nobody else can see it, but you're having a great time following it. And so when you explain it to other people, sometimes it feels really windy and it doesn't make sense. But for you in the moment, you were just. You were like, following what you needed and you just kept following it, and that's how it ended up happening. I sometimes say it was like, it's not that deep. Like, I just. I just kept following exactly what I needed. I kept. Just kept asking other. Our members, like, what they needed, and I just kept following that with, I guess, like, ADHD intuition.
- [20:58]
Katie Weber
Right? Yeah, I know. And like, my resume is a total mess as a result. But, like, that's one of those things that my diagnosis has allowed me to reframe, which is instead of me looking at my. My resume and being like, oh, look at what a hot mess I am, I can't stick to a job for two years and look at. I'm all over the place. Like, now I'm like, look at this patchwork quilt that has led me to who I am today.
- [21:19]
Krystal Wang
I love it.
- [21:21]
Katie Weber
Yeah.
- [21:21]
Krystal Wang
It reflects you, which is beautiful.
- [21:24]
Katie Weber
Yeah. Right. And it all makes sense in hindsight. Right. Like, you think about where you are in life and you look back and you're like, oh, yeah. Like, every single one of these pieces was necessary and made sense.
- [21:35]
Krystal Wang
Yeah.
- [21:36]
Katie Weber
So in terms of cultural competency, because I know that's something, you know, in terms of, like, the intersectional nature of adhd, what were some of the things that you were looking to meet with Shimmer that you weren't necessarily receiving from the community at large.
- [21:54]
Krystal Wang
Yeah. So I think a big part of our User experience is maybe neurodivergent competency or ADHD competency. I think the struggle with a lot of experiences that are created by ADHDers and is that even though there's good intentions, it's almost like, oh, it's obvious someone with ADHD created this because it's a little bit jumpy. And so that's something that I'm really cognizant about. Our experience as well is that I always want to include everything on our app or on our page or on our onboarding flow. And I'm like, no, there needs to be one. Every time someone opens a page, there should be an obvious next step. And the inspiration I use is actually DocuSign. Someone said this and I can't find the source, but they say that DocuSign was actually created for people who are neurodivergent or people with adhd because it's so easy to navigate. You're like, next, I sign here. Next, I sign here. But then it works for everyone. And so I love that mentality because that's how we also think about our user experience. It's like, does if this works for people with adhd, it's very clear. There's always, like a next step and people are always excited. There's always something delightful. It's also going to work for everyone. So that's like the ADHD competency side. And then I think cultural competency. I try with Shimmer to make sure that, well, first of all, that our coaches are diverse and culturally competent and also trained to be culturally competent beyond the cultures that they're in. So with Shimmer, we train our coaches on, for example, like, we recently had one on queer LGBTQ competence, and we do bipoc competence. And so what that really means is that either we can match you, if you would like, with someone who understands your experience and has ideally lived through it. So I, for example, I may want to be matched with an Asian American coach, or I may want to be matched with a queer coach. That is usually the best version for someone because then they don't need to explain all the things. I mean, we. That's why most ADHD coaches have adhd, because people don't need to, like, explain everything. You're like, no, no, I get it. You don't even need to finish your sentence. And so that's the first level. But beyond that, if they aren't that culture, then also making sure that they're aware. So we do a lot of events. Like, we did an AAPI panel recently A Latinx panel recently, a queer panel. So really just like advocacy for the various cultures and how those cultures specifically intersect with adhd so that everyone is aware. Our coaches come to these, and we invite the general public as well to hear out these experiences. Because growing up with being Asian, having ADHD is completely different from any other experience. And it shapes how my symptoms were, how people reacted to me, what I view as success or not success. And so that's really important for me in a coach. I mean, the example that's overused, but I think a lot of people relate with is when like a non Asian therapist says, like, oh, your mom has crossed your boundary or your aunt has crossed your boundary. You should just cut them out of your life. And so for someone who's Asian, it's like, no, I can't. That's not how being Asian works. So that's the overused example, but I think it's the most relatable one. And there's many, many microcosms and micro examples of that that if you view that one as understandable, then you can kind of build down to smaller and smaller ones until hopefully most of our coaches can understand down to a medium kind of level. And then we at least use that as a starting point. And if someone needs to switch coaches, then they need to switch coaches. Time, it's always vanishing. The commute, the errands, the work functions, the meetings. Selling your car, unless you sell your car with carvana. Get a real offer in minutes. Get it picked up from your door. Get paid on the spot so fast you'll wonder what the catch is. There isn't one. We just respect you and your time. Oh, you're still here. Move along now. Enjoy your day. Sell your car today. Pickup fees may apply.
- [26:06]
Katie Weber
How do you address just the idea that needing a coach or a therapist is even outside of what is possible sometimes with. Especially with Asian American culture.
- [26:19]
Krystal Wang
Yeah, so it's interesting because with Asians, a lot of us don't. Yeah, don't even. Even if we have the means. There's also like a lot of culture around, like, frugality and what we spend money on and not spending money on ourselves. And so even if we have the money, a lot of Asians will actually not even even spend on coaching and therapy. And so that is really difficult. And we actually see it as a reflection of, like, the amount of coaches who are Asian as well. There are not enough Asian American coaches and therapists, as with other bipoc populations. So I think a lot of what we Do. Which is why I think coaching is almost a little bit of a. In my opinion, like a gateway into potentially other helping professions is if you look at our website, we try to not make it look healthcare E. We try to not make it look like, hey, this is for patients or this is for sick people. It's like, this is empowering. This is for you to get to your next age. You could be totally content with your life. We're not saying that there's something wrong with you, but you could still want to work on that next goal, that next promotion, switching careers, getting to a better place in your life, figuring out what routines are already working for you so that you can solidify them to draw on them later if you ever become in the situation where things are harder. So really just is around framing a positive framing to match better with what coaching actually is. Which I think there's a lot of misconceptions, as you probably know. I think a lot of people think that therapy and coaching are the same or they don't really understand or the whole medical realm and coaching. But coaching is so different and has a completely different set of outcomes and purpose as to why. Why it exists.
- [28:08]
Katie Weber
Yeah, Right. But I also found the reason why I'm back in school now to become a therapist in addition to coaching is because I feel like they go hand in hand with ADHD more specifically than anything else. And so as a coach, when I pivoted into ADHD coaching, yeah, we were working on smart goals. Yeah, we were all of the things that I was doing, but we were also, like, way more talking about relational and emotional past. Right. And it's like, you can't avoid it as much as you want. And that's where I was like, I am, like, constantly waiting into unethical, murky territory with my coaching, but I love it and I'm super curious and I want to talk about it. So I was like, okay, let me just go, you know, give me three years and I'll. And then I'll feel better if I've got, you know, some more letters behind my name. So I'm like, that's one of the things that I always caution with ADHD coaching is like, you have to really have boundaries in terms of ethics, in terms of what you're talking about. And I think I would feel much better, like, having, you know, I will feel much better knowing that I have a lot more competence in terms of, you know, what I was doing and just being like, I don't know if I'm trained for this, but here we go. And I don't feel like that's a very responsible way to have a relationship with a client.
- [29:25]
Krystal Wang
Yeah, I totally agree. And this is something our team talks about a lot. When we dream about the future, we always dream that there's going to be ADHD therapists and coaches. Like, well, sorry, that there are already, but people who are trained in therapy and coaching because they go so hand in hand. And right now there's so often where we hit the boundaries of coaching and we need to refer out to a therapist, which is obviously great, but it would be awesome too, if you could have one person to go to who could be able to do both of those things and you kind of just know which sort of contract you're in at which time. But yeah, I, I, it is not out of the realm. So I got credentialed as a coach this year and is definitely not out of the realm that I will also go back to school for therapy at some point. So I am totally on board with you. But I always try not to do everything today. Chris. Not everything today.
- [30:17]
Katie Weber
I know, right? That's the hardest thing, is that this is taking three years and I'm, can we just like, do it already? It's, But I'm appreciating the slowness of it all and how methodical it is because I feel like it's just, it's helping me to evolve as a human.
- [30:33]
Krystal Wang
I can imagine.
- [30:34]
Katie Weber
But. So, you know, but one of the things I realized very quickly after starting this podcast was that, like the guests I was interviewing, women who were diagnosed in adulthood, I was seeing way more of the multiple degrees, super high achieving women who had anxiety and depression but did not do poorly in school or even were not even in the principal's office. They were good girls who were very, very bright and very high performing. And then it just sort of caught up to them in terms of their anxiety and depression. And so I'm curious, how has your diagnosis changed your view of yourself or in terms of being an entrepreneur and a investor and high performance? I know people don't like that term. I don't know. I haven't come up with a better term.
- [31:26]
Krystal Wang
I don't either. But I agree that I don't know what the better term is. But okay, first I wanted to share this TikTok I saw that you reminded me of, but it basically had like a small cup, which is essentially like the expectations and like things that you have to do as a kid. And then they like pour like water on it. Oh, sorry. Yeah, sorry. The water is what you need to do as a kid. And they pour it and then it, like, goes. It stays inside. And then there's this other, bigger cup where it's like, you being an adult, and, like, they show, like, the amount of water of stuff you need to do, and they pour it over and they're. And it just completely overfills and it's like, this is, like, what it is to be an adult. And you just have so much more that you need to do. You need to, like, do your finances. You need to get your stuff in order. There's not, like, a clear benchmark of, like, what success means. And so obviously your water is going to overflow. And then they draw this parallel with, like, ADHD or autism or any other neurodivergence where, like, your water's coming faster and, like, the cup is also smaller. So I will. I need to find it because I'm probably not doing a great job describing it, but it. It really helped hit home for me the concept of this catching up. There's a lot of people who are doing fine when they were a kid, and then it kind of caught up because their coping mechanisms weren't good enough. And the other thing I also wanted to add was that I definitely was not a good kid. I was a bad kid with good grades. Somehow that happened. I still have these little memories of me getting kicked out of ballet class. Or I used to sharpen my pencil into the door of the classroom and when the teacher looked away, I would just run out of the classroom. I don't know why I did these things, but then I was just, I guess, very good at just cramming. I used to just read textbooks in a day and not sleep in a night and not sleep. And then word vomit it the next day on the piece of paper. And then a day later, someone would ask me something from it and I. I just didn't remember anything because I just inhaled it too fast. But anyway, small anecdotes. Your question was around, oh, how has my identity changed? Or how I view my ADHD as an entrepreneur? People with adhd, and neurodivergent people in general, have one of the most important ingredients to be an entrepreneur. It's that drive. And I. Well, I guess two things. It's the drive, and it's also not being okay with the status quo, because the status quo has, like, not served them correctly. And when you're so sure that the status quo is wrong and that. Or that you can do Better. And you can be a part of a small part of the world being better. And you believe that to your core because you've lived through it. I think that's like the most important ingredient. There's obviously all these other stuff around organization and all the other executive functioning things that need to happen, but I think those are things that you can get better at. I think you can't have a person who doesn't have that drive and doesn't have that inherent want to change something and want to make the world better, to be able to create what someone neurodivergent can. So I think I've definitely, in a long journey, come to reframe ADHD in entrepreneurship as, like, the essential ingredient. Not to say it's like, it's definitely not like a superpower or like anything like that, but it's the essential core ingredient. And now I just need to. Now that I'm confident that I have this essential ingredient, I need to solve for all these other things. But that's a way better situation than having all the other things and not having the core essential ingredients. So I think that was the biggest, this refrain for me that I now love who I am, which includes adhd.
- [35:11]
Katie Weber
Yeah, I love how you put that because it's true. You know, we really do. Like, if you have a problem, you drop everything to solve it, right? Like, you did that with your business, right? And I feel like that is such an essential part of, like, the. You know, I always talk about Sisyphus, how we are pushing the boulder up the hill. Because for us, pushing the boulder up the hill is fun, right? Like, you know, getting to the top of the hill is boring. We don't spend very much time at the top of the hill before we found another hill, right? And, like, so it's like, that's what fuels us, is to solve problems. The flip side of that is the fact that, like, our negativity bias is out of control because of adhd. So we're always looking for the next problem to solve. When it's us, like, we are the biggest problem to solve. And so we're always going to focus on what's wrong with me, what am I not doing? Why did I, you know, what's missing? And, you know, I always use the example of my son coming home with his 92 and being like, I only got a 92. And you're like, what is wrong with you? But it's like, I'm also like, it's like this generational question of, like, what's wrong with you, right where you're like, why can't you just be normal? But it's like you're just even. That is just like, why am I always focusing on what's missing and what's negative? And it's like, I never really thought about those. The other side of that coin, that as being that entrepreneurial. Drop everything and put everything you have into fixing this. Because, you know, I feel like they're coming from the same quadrant of our brain.
- [36:44]
Krystal Wang
No, exactly. I used to say this all the time whenever I would, like, get in fights with people. But I think every trait that any individual has, like, I say that there's like a front and the back of the hand. If you're spontaneous, that's a positive side. The negative side is you're probably, like, also a little bit flaky or forgetful, whatever you want to call it. And like, if you love yourself and if someone. If you love someone else, you have to love both sides of the hand. Like, you can't split them apart. There's always going to be a front and the back of the hand. And so I think that, like, a lifelong journey for ourselves is loving every single negative aspect that is or at least accepting the negative aspects that are attached to our positive traits. Because if you were to be like, well, would you get rid of your positive trait if you get rid of the negative one? If you sat down and thought long enough about it, you probably wouldn't. Because the positive traits are what makes you. You.
- [37:39]
Katie Weber
Yeah, that. You're reminding me of the. What's the movie? The. The Red Panda movie.
- [37:47]
Krystal Wang
Oh, I know what you're talking about. I'm not good with movie names, but I know what you're talking about.
- [37:51]
Katie Weber
I can't think of it right now. It's Red something, but I don't remember what it's called. And I'm so excited. It takes place in Toronto, which is super awesome. I'll look it up and in the show notes, you all know what I'm talking about.
- [38:01]
Krystal Wang
The Disney movie, it's called Turning Red.
- [38:04]
Katie Weber
Right? Turning red. Thank you. Yes. Turning Red.
- [38:06]
Krystal Wang
Yeah, I just googled it.
- [38:06]
Katie Weber
Of course you did, because you can't help yourself. This is real time adhd. So let's get back to Shimmer because I want to find out about the. How it works. It's an app, you know, so you go. Okay, so if you go to Shimmer Care and you. You get matched with a coach. Right, let's walk me through the process here. Yeah.
- [38:30]
Krystal Wang
So in a Nutshell, it's one on one ADHD coaching, but how it works is you get to the website, you answer a few questions that will help us understand what sort of coach you might be a good fit with. Then you'll get shown either two or three coaches that you may like and then you can browse through their profiles. Take your time. We'll provide a good amount of information about them, their style, how they can help you, and then you pick one of them, and then once you pick one of them, then you pay. And then after you pay, you go inside and then once you're in the app, you can either use the app on your web or your mobile. And that was really important to our members because when they want to type a lot, they want to do it on the web, but when they just want a notification, they want on their phone, so you can do it on either. And then you go through a series of onboarding questions which that is actually the start of the coaching already. So we found that. But a lot of the times, some things that people weren't ready to open up to their coach right away because it's a new relationship, but it would be so helpful for the coach to know. So you're able to do that actually before you meet your coach in a journaling format that we facilitate. And you also do a couple of assessments on your executive functions around your focus areas in your life and what your goals would be. And also there is going to be a little, a few kind of little videos on like what coaching is, how do you get the most of it. All of this that we discovered are things that are really important to making that first meeting really great with your coach. And then after that you meet essentially every week with your coach. So you'll meet over video, which is in our app, which is Weber Mobile. And then you meet every week. And then in each one of those sessions, basically your coach is doing ADHD coaching. They help you figure out what you want your future goals to be, what your vision of your life looks like, and then help you break that down and work backwards from it. So in a typical session, you're either working on something that gets you towards your goals, or you could be problem solving on something that just came up that week. It really just depends on the person and what's going on in their session. So it could be something more internal or it could be something more external. It could be looking at your morning or nighttime routine, your calendaring, learning a new strategy, potentially around time blocking. Whatever your focus is, it'll look different for every single person. And then in addition to the one on one coaching, you also have access to. My favorite part of the app is actually the to do list. So the to do list is you set your to dos after each session with your coach and then when you finish it, it messages your coach every time you check something off. And then your coach, depending on what you've agreed on, will either like celebrate you or like kind of like gently nudge you if you didn't do it in a few days. So there's like actual real human accountability. And that's, that's, for me, accountability is the biggest motivator and coming from someone you respect in a way that doesn't take them a lot of time as well. Because we're very respectful of the coach's time, we've kind of built the tools to enable that. So there's that and then the last two pieces is body doubling. So every day we have body doubling running in the app so you can go with other people who have ADHD who are also working on their ADHD to get things done. And the last piece is then there's a bunch of learning modules in the app too. So if you want to learn about procrastination, ADHD in the brain, rejection, sensitivity, dysphoria, whatever it is, your coach can either assign it to you or you can discover it yourself so that your coaching really is continuously happening as much as you really want it to be happening.
- [41:59]
Katie Weber
During the early days of my diagnosis, as I was deep into hyperfocus ADHD research mode, I kept searching for some kind of all in one, everything you ever needed to know about ADHD in Women handbook that I could reference and keep at my fingertips. But I never really found anything that suited me. That's why I've taken everything I've learned about ADHD in women and adults who are socialized as girls and I've gathered it into a concise, easy to access, self guided and self paced course so you can feel like you've got everything you need at your fingertips.
- [42:28]
It's called hey, It's ADHD and it.
- [42:31]
Has everything you need to start loving your brain and living a more fulfilling, gratifying life. I built this course to be helpful wherever you are on your ADHD ADHD journey. I am so excited to finally be able to offer this course and I truly hope this will help you develop a deeper understanding of your ADHD brain and how to embrace it as you build yourself a toolkit for your own life. So head over to womenandadhd.com and click on the hey, it's ADHD course tab for more information and to get started.
- [43:01]
I mean, it's amazing that you can keep it so affordable with real humans. Are they. Are they well compensated? Like, how do you pay them?
- [43:12]
Krystal Wang
Yeah, so this was like, one of the first problems that I got obsessed with solving. So basically we interviewed, I want to say, like, over 50 or 60 coaches to try to discover why coaching was so expensive. And a big part of it was because most coaches spend depending on the level of the coach, like, upwards of 50% of their time doing things like, like posting on Instagram, like figuring out how to do the website logistics, like scheduling, rescheduling cancellations, and then having an empty slot. So we ensure that our coaches don't have any of those. They basically log on in the morning and they coach until whenever they want to coach. And then everything else is taken care of for them with our, with our tech solution. And so for us, it's like we can continue to. Every week we're looking at more things from the coach that we can help automate or make it easier for them. And also how to change the systems better so that people don't cancel, people don't ghost, how to motivate people to get to sessions, how to send the right notifications at the right time. So our designer pretty much spends all of her time just looking at the coach side and the member side and essentially looking for the most efficient way to do all of this while not removing the humanity part of it. Because I think what a lot of tech solutions do, in my opinion, too much is that they go too hard on efficiency and then there's no human involved anymore. And of course that's efficient. But if you have people with adhd, it's really hard to stick to anything that doesn't have a human and the quality of the coaching goes down. So until I get proven wrong, I'm not for AI coaching yet.
- [44:57]
Katie Weber
Oh, my God. No. I mean, you know, it's like, it's fine. But I feel like, you know, one of the things with ADHD is that novelty wears off really quickly with anything. And that's where I think, you know, that's where you hit the wall of awful of just like, yeah, no, like, I'm super into this and I am whole hog. You know, I'm like spreadsheets and whole hog and new planners and everything. And I'm starting creating a new me, and, like, I'll do anything for like, two weeks. And then all of a sudden, it's just you wake up and you're like, like, yeah, no, I'm done.
- [45:26]
Krystal Wang
Yeah, no, totally.
- [45:27]
Katie Weber
Right. And so that's where I feel like the human relationship is so integral to, like, show up, you know, because it's like, if I can't show up for myself, at least I can show up for the other person. Right. And coaching kind of helps you. Until you're able to become accountable for yourself, you rely on being accountable to somebody else. Okay, well, that's good to hear. And I'm sure it's really nice for coaches to not have to, you know, work with a company that's finding them the clients. Right. Because it's true. Like, you spend so much. It's like, so, you know, every entrepreneur will complain about, like, I didn't. I didn't go to marketing school. I don't want to dance around on TikTok reels. Like, I want to do the stuff I'm interested in. I don't want to spend all of this time having to market myself. Right. It's a real drudge when you are a small business entrepreneur.
- [46:12]
Krystal Wang
Yeah, no, definitely.
- [46:13]
Katie Weber
I'm speaking from experience.
- [46:17]
Krystal Wang
Yeah. No, our coaches love that. They don't need to do all those things. And then also I think what a lot of ADHD coaches are also missing, and obviously I'm biased, but why they love being on our team too, is that camaraderie that they had when they were in an ADHD coaching school. Now, I mean, all of our coaches are on this massive slack and have multiple meetings a week where they do different trainings, they do different discussions, they problem solve together, and they send resources to each other. And I think as someone with adhd, which most coaches are having, that community is also makes such a big difference to your day to day being able to work. And also, especially if the community's facilitated and you don't need to do anything. You just need to show up.
- [46:59]
Katie Weber
Oh, my God. Right? I know. That's the best kind of friendships are the ones where you're like, see this plan for you to show up.
- [47:06]
Krystal Wang
Yes.
- [47:06]
Katie Weber
Well, speaking of community that, you know, you. You mentioned that this started as a support group during the pandemic dealing with loneliness. Is there a community element to shimmer in terms of. Of clients? Because I guess there's also the anonymity sent. Like, how does that work?
- [47:24]
Krystal Wang
Yeah, that's something that we have been very thoughtful and careful about. So I think there definitely will be more in the future as we figure it Out. But right now there's body doubling in the app which you could go to, which just shows your first name and it, you can be camera off on whatever you want. But you, you don't have to. So not all of our members use that tool of body doubling. And then what we do to make it more, I guess like you can choose how much you disclose is we do a lot. I think now we're up to maybe a little bit more than one a week. But we do public facing events where all of our members are involved, but also all the public is involved and it's on zoom and you can change your name or some of them. We do it where it's like the webinar style where you can't even see who else is in there. So we have those opportunities. They're at different differing levels, but they, but there is a small sense of community within the app. And then we have our newsletter, slash newsletter, slash podcast. It's a video newsletter which now we think that it's just a podcast. It's called Brain Waves. We started Trina's on all the episodes. But yeah, it started out as a newsletter. I don't know, it just, it just snowballed. But yeah, there's, there's different, different levels of community. And we're quite thoughtful about that because as you mentioned, like, not everyone wants to shout at the rooftop that they have adhd. And that's totally fine.
- [48:46]
Katie Weber
Right? Yeah, yeah, I love that you're like, that's the other thing with adhd. It's like, oops, I accidentally started a new business overnight. Whoops.
- [48:54]
Krystal Wang
Yeah, I mean, also. So Trina and Orion and Noel are the three who are doing the newsletter slash podcast and they, they all have adhd. Most of our team does, but specifically that team all has adhd. So it was, it was funny watching that thing snowball because it was originally on an initiative. We had like a little initiative card and it was called Newsletter. And then like slowly the name kept changing until it became like Brainwave's podcast newsletter.
- [49:23]
Katie Weber
I love Brainwave. It's a great name, very clever. Okay, so it's shimmer care, correct?
- [49:29]
Krystal Wang
Yes.
- [49:30]
Katie Weber
Is where people can find you. Obviously. I'll have that link in the show notes. And do you have a name for ADHD if you could rename it to something less bizarre and clinical?
- [49:42]
Krystal Wang
You definitely sent me down a rabbit hole with that question. I probably thought about it for way too long and I was reflecting on what I feel like the challenges with it are. And I do think that there is, like, at first I went down the thought of, like, there's definitely, like, the topical challenges. It just feels like it doesn't cover everything, and it doesn't necessarily even cover the right things. Then there's the disorder, which makes it feel, like, so scary. But then I ended up just simplifying, going back and looking at other things I think. Think, like, schizophrenia, autism, diabetes, like, all of these. Like, they don't have, like, all these letters, like, trying to, like, exhaustively cover what this thing is. So I don't know if I will even like, this tomorrow, but I landed on the word wavy. I don't know if it came from brainwaves, but I was like, I would like to go out and just be like, yeah, like, I'm neurodivergent, and specifically, I'm wavy. I felt like it kind of, like, philosophically encompassed adhd, but I don't think it would go by any sort of doctors or clinicians. So it's just. I'm just throwing an option into the hat.
- [50:48]
Katie Weber
Plus, I love the vision of, like, a straight line and then the wavy line next to it. That's how it feels when you're talking about neurotypicals, where you're like, I don't know who those neurotypicals are, but it's like they're the straight line.
- [51:00]
Krystal Wang
Yeah, exactly.
- [51:01]
Katie Weber
And I think it also talks about, like, progress, too. Like, you know, like, progress isn't linear. Progress is all about, like, peaks and valleys. And so I like the brainwave. Yeah, yeah.
- [51:11]
Krystal Wang
And I also like how wavy is. There's so many different. There's only one straight line, but there's so many. You can have infinite types of, like, wavy lines. And that shows, I think, the diversity within ADHD as well, because, yes, it's adhd, but, like, everyone has such a different type of adhd, even though there's things that are same. So I kind of like that about the wavy line.
- [51:34]
Katie Weber
Right. And you. And you know, what else is wavy? Have you ever seen those images of, like, the old. Old brick walls that they used to make? And, like, they were in, like, English countryside. They would have, like, the wavy wall was actually a stronger wall than a straight wall, and it used fewer bricks. And so there was, like, farmers would. I don't know if it was farmers. I don't know. So whoever was building brick walls in the old countryside would, like, make them wavy instead of straight because they had more fortitude or something, which I'm like, I like that allegory.
- [52:01]
Krystal Wang
It kind of reminds me of. I don't know if you know this, but I recently found out that. That earthquake safe buildings are actually wavy. And the reason why they're earthquake safe is because they can wave versus the super rigid ones will just fall over if an earthquake happens. So I was like, wow, okay, even these buildings are wavy and stronger and more resilient.
- [52:23]
Katie Weber
Yeah, I was just gonna say it's like flexibility and resilience. I like it. We could do a lot with this.
- [52:29]
Krystal Wang
Okay, nice. I got my first vote for when I petitioned this.
- [52:33]
Katie Weber
Well, we could probably think of like what would Wavy. Wavy could probably stand for thing as an acronym because like my only thing. I haven't come up with a good name either. I always ask other people, I'm like, I don't know what you would call it because. But you know, one of the nice things about ADHD is that it's easy to Google. So if you call it anything else, like vast or any of the other options that have been put out there, it's like, well, you're also still going to have to. You're also still going to have to Google ADHD whenever you put in Vast. So I'm like, you have to be careful about what to call it.
- [53:03]
Krystal Wang
When I submitted my whole thought process into ChatGPT, two other options it gave me were, yes, I went down a rabbit hole, but Atentia was one and then Mindora was another one.
- [53:17]
Katie Weber
All right.
- [53:18]
Krystal Wang
Which I don't know, I feel like wavy is better, but I just wanted to throw up. Like I literally submitted my whole thought process and they came up with those too.
- [53:27]
Katie Weber
So I love it. Well, okay, that's fine. It sounds a little bit like a Disney Kingdom attention.
- [53:34]
Krystal Wang
But yeah, but yeah, I don't think it would solve the problem because it feels like an even shorter version of adhd. Like, like not shorter, but just one part of all those four letters.
- [53:44]
Katie Weber
Well, and then again it's like attention is such a straight. You know, it's so variant. Right. Like nobody you. I haven't met anybody with ADHD who has a attention deficit because you, you know, you go down rabbit holes, we hyper focus. It's just, it's that variability element.
- [54:00]
Krystal Wang
So that's why I think it needs to be something a bit more like vague and philosophical because, well, bipolar actually is. It visualizes it. So that's actually a pretty good one. But borderline schizophrenia, diabetes, I'm not sure if they all mean something. I would need to look into it. I'll probably do that afterwards.
- [54:18]
Katie Weber
Yeah, well, even When Asperger's was. Was on the way out. Right. In terms of like, we don't want to. We don't want to name something after a Nazi, understandably. But then I was like, huh, I wonder where. I wonder what the etymology of autism is. And it's actually also problematic. It's just, like, buried a little bit deeper. And I'm trying to remember now. Now I' to have to go down that rabbit hole and put some links in the show notes, but I'm like, I'm pretty sure there were some, like, eugenics doctors in there somewhere way back when in terms of who you know, because all white men in lab coats before a certain age were awful. So, like, whoever named it, I mean, whoever named it was probably an awful human. Who are we kidding? But anyway, I was like, how come autism doesn't get the same scrutiny? But anyway, anyway, yeah, but it would be nice to have a sort of a neutral word that is neither positive or negative, but it's just a way of identifying yourself.
- [55:15]
Krystal Wang
Yeah.
- [55:16]
Katie Weber
Which I guess neurodivergent really has taken that spot.
- [55:20]
Krystal Wang
I do like the word neurodivergent, actually, A lot.
- [55:23]
Katie Weber
Yeah. Yeah, same.
- [55:24]
Krystal Wang
Yeah.
- [55:25]
Katie Weber
It's just.
- [55:26]
Krystal Wang
Yeah. Not for ADHD specifically, but, I mean, I was thinking when. When you put that question, I was thinking about, like, queer and pansexual, too. It's like, I would tell someone who's queer that I'm pansexual, but I wouldn't, like, open the stage to someone I didn't know being like, I'm pansexual. It was like, I don't even know if you know what that means. So I would start with, like, I don't know, like, be a bit more vague and say bye. Or then be a little bit more vague and just say queer or lgbtq. If I feel like they're, like, really not going to understand, I'll just whip out all the letters.
- [55:58]
Katie Weber
Yeah, I guess you. It depends on the audience too. Right. And that's why I sort of feel like ADHD is like the. I always joke that it's the gateway diagnosis because that's usually, like, the first one because it's so tied to behaviors. And so it's the one that most people get diagnosed with first. And then. Although, actually, when you think of childhood now, I'm just. I'm walking back on that statement because I'm thinking about all the people who were diagnosed with dyslexia in childhood. But anyway. But this idea that it's like, it's very Behavior based as opposed to like really getting into the neurodivergent brain and like what is it about your brain that is Giving you ADHD PhD, right. Anyway, thank you. This has been really fascinating. I love that this business has been growing and doing incredibly well over the last couple of years. So congratulations to you. Really quickly, do you have any exciting things planned for the next few years in terms of shimmer?
- [56:53]
Krystal Wang
Yes, I mean specifics of next few years. As most people with adhd, it's hard to plan that far out. But. But yeah, the way we do things is we always just follow our members and follow our coaches and try to just solve more problems. But yeah, I think that we actually just did a body doubling launch last week. So now we, I mean it's, it actually had been live for like a year already but we finally wanted to do like a celebration and a launch around it. So now we have body doubling. But yeah, I think that going forward we will be building more features in the app that will help folks be able to do some elements of coaching throughout the week that will help augment their experience of coaching in the session. So really I think one thing that is most different about how we do coaching too is we try to extend that coaching throughout the week and be present with you where we can and where it makes sense. Of course. So we're excited to launch some more features there that will help help, that will help also like alleviate more time from the coach so that the coach is really focusing their time on that like once a week generative session with, with the client. So there's always going to be new features coming out. I don't think I mentioned here we actually do Audi HD coaching as well. So we do ADHD coaching and Audi HD coaching. So if you're curious, come find us. Where I think our most interesting stuff is probably on Instagram. So we're Shimmer Care. Me and Trina make the content on Instagram.
- [58:26]
Katie Weber
Oh yeah, that's an amazing person to have on your team. And yeah, yeah, I'll put links to all of the Instagrams and yeah, and if you find the TikTok small cup coping mechanism video, let me know. Send it to me. I'll put it in the show notes.
- [58:45]
Krystal Wang
Oh yes, I will definitely do that because I did not do a good job explaining it. I like other ADHDers. I often really, I know I really, really like something and I remember how it made me feel but the moment I try to explain it or to name it or to do anything with it, I'm sorry, but I swear, I love it.
- [59:04]
Katie Weber
I know, right? I say that about the plot of every book I've ever read. I'm like, couldn't tell you anything about it. I just know if I liked it or not.
- [59:12]
Krystal Wang
Yes. I don't know my favorite movies. I love that I get to rewatch them again, but I can't remember them. I just know that they're my favorite.
- [59:18]
Katie Weber
I know, right? Yeah, I was just. We were just like, going back and rewatching Black Mirror and I was like, I love the fact that I cannot remember any of these. And I know I've seen them.
- [59:29]
Krystal Wang
Yeah. The plot twist hits you, like, harder than other people. And they're like, wait, I thought you recommended I watch this.
- [59:35]
Katie Weber
I know, right? Well, thank you for spending this time with me. And yeah, thanks for everything you're doing with this business. It sounds amazing. And yeah, good luck to you.
- [59:44]
You.
- [59:45]
Krystal Wang
No, thank you so much. I really appreciate the time. And if anyone's listening, I think number one advice is like, whatever your hyper focus is on or whatever, you're super passionate about it. If you can find a way to, like, make it your job. Like, I. I know, Katie, you. You're in that position. It's so amazing.
- [60:04]
Katie Weber
And it usually changes every couple years too. So it keeps you on your toes.
- [60:08]
Krystal Wang
You get new ones. Thank you so much for having me.
- [60:12]
Katie Weber
Oh, thank you, Chris.
- [60:18]
There you have it. Thank you for listening and I really hope you enjoyed this episode of the Women and ADHD podcast. If you'd like to find out more about me and my coaching programs, head over to womenandadhd.com if you're a woman who was diagnosed with ADHD and you'd like to apply to be a guest on this podcast, visit Women and ADH and you can find that link in.
- [60:39]
The episode show notes.
- [60:40]
Also, you know, we ADHDers crave feedback and I would really appreciate hearing from you, the listener. Please take a moment to leave me a review on Apple Podcasts or Audible. And if that feels like too much and I totally get it, please just take a few seconds right now to give me a five star rating or share this episode on your own social media to help reach more women who maybe have yet to discover and lean into this gift of neurodivergency. And they may be struggling and they don't even know why. I'll see you next time when I interview another amazing woman who discovered she's not lazy or crazy or broken, but she has ADHD and she's now on the path to understanding her neurodivergent mind and finally, using this gift to her advantage. Take care till then.
- [61:25]
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