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- [00:01]
Jen Fry
It takes a lot of a person to consistently say no when they're being badgered by one person or when it comes to family. And so you're trying to say no to one person. Now you have to say no to six people and text messages and emails. And that's where people don't understand how hard it is to start setting boundaries because of all the other pressure and badgering in some aspects that occurs.
- [00:30]
Katie Weber
Hello, and welcome to the Women An ADHD Podcast. I'm your host, Katie Weber. I was diagnosed with ADHD at the age of 45, and it completely turned my world upside down. I've been looking back at so much of my life, school, jobs, my relationships, all of it with this new lens, and it has been nothing short of overwhelming. I quickly discovered I was not the only woman to have this experience. And now I interview other women who, like me, discovered in adulthood they have ADHD and are finally feeling like they understand who. Who they are and how to best lean into their strengths, both professionally and personally.
- [01:10]
Hello.
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Hello, and welcome back. Happy New Year. All right, well, here we are at episode 205 in which I interview Jen Fry. Jen is an educator, a speaker, and.
- [01:21]
The author of the book I Said.
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How to have Boundaries and Backbone While not being a Jerk. Saying no is supposed to be simple, but for so many women with adhd, it feels loaded with guilt and overthinking and the fear of disappointing everyone around you. Jen is a former college volleyball Coach with a PhD in sports geography, and she now works at the intersection of conflict, culture and sport, speaking to teams and organizations around the country. Jen and I talk about the ADHD tendency to be a people pleaser and why Jen proudly says she is kind but not nice. In this conversation, we talk about adhd, hyper focus, time blindness, imposter syndrome, and why so many high achieving women end up chronically over overcommitted, burnt out, and resentful. We also talk about what it really takes to say no, not just to other people, but to our own overexcited ADHD brains. So if you've ever struggled with boundaries.
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Or you've worried that saying no will.
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Make you difficult, this episode is going to hit very close to home.
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Hello, Jen. Welcome to the Women in ADHD Podcast. I'm so glad you could join me, Katie.
- [02:33]
Jen Fry
Thank you very much for having me. I'm so excited about this.
- [02:36]
Katie Weber
Well, congratulations on your book. As soon as I saw the title, I knew I had to interview you. I think this is a topic we speak about a lot, especially as women with adhd. And so we will get to those millions of questions I have about that. But first, I wanted to hear about your ADHD diagnosis. How long ago did you discover you had adhd? And kind of, what were those signs for you personally that helped you connect the dots to say I should look into this?
- [03:06]
Jen Fry
You know, it's kind of funny because I didn't have an official diagnosis, but I remember my coach when I was in junior college, I was probably like, it was right before I started, probably like 16 or 17. And my coach was like, asking my mom, do you think you should have gen tested for HGHD adhd? And my mom was like, no, she is just a really active girl. And I look back and I'm like, mom, bless your heart. Like, I appreciate your defending me. And it's really evident by if you talk to me, if you interact with me that I have this. Like, it's not. And I think it was, you know, I'm 45, and I think before it was kind of always like a secret. Just put people on drugs and don't talk about it. And now it's more widely talked about. But, you know, just the way I interact, the way I think through things, the way I jump to stuff, it's funny. My chief of staff don't. She does time blocking. And I'm like, you mean you just stop when the time is done? Like, you just. I'm done. And I'm like, I could never even envision that once I am down the rabbit hole, it will take God himself to pull me out. Like, the idea of just like, ding. Okay, next task. I couldn't even fathom that at all.
- [04:24]
Katie Weber
I know, right? Well, and even when I was first diagnosed, gosh, five years ago, at this point, it was. That was one of my big fears about trying medic was the fact that I was like, I. That's kind of. My best qualities are that hyperfocus that you're talking about. I was really worried about losing that. And so how long ago were you diagnosed?
- [04:45]
Jen Fry
Were you.
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Katie Weber
Have you been officially diagnosed? Are you kind of self diagnosed?
- [04:49]
Jen Fry
I have not. I have not been. I'm self diagnosed and it's. At 45. It got to be the point of, is medication worth it? You know, I'm a professional speaker, and so being on stage, I. My biggest fear with adding medication in is I wouldn't have the opportunity to figure out how my brain works in front of a crowd of a thousand people.
- [05:13]
Katie Weber
I know it's a really complicated issue. And I imagine even as an athlete too. I'm sure athletic departments and professional sports are filled. I know the Olympics are. They're filled with adhd. Kids had a lot of energy and their parents put them into sports. And I think sports probably exercise structure. Like, I think it's probably really great for the ADHD brain.
- [05:37]
Jen Fry
Yes. 100%. 100% there.
- [05:40]
Katie Weber
Yeah. When I found out you had your doctorate in sports geography, I had to look it up. It's not a term, I think I certainly have never heard of it. I don't think it's a term a lot of people have heard of. Super fascinating though, when I did look it up. And so I'm kind of curious how you ended up going from being a professional volleyball coach to moving into the field of sports geography. And. And then I want to ask you how you became a public speaker. But I feel like they're all connected, right. As that's the wonderful thing about adhd. Right. It's like all these seemingly random paths that all connect into this patchwork quilt of our life.
- [06:17]
Jen Fry
Yeah. So it does. And I think kind of I have to jump around. But what happened was that I'm an educator at heart. Like, I love to learn, I am a person that I'm always taking webinars classes, all of that stuff. And I had gotten my second master's. And that's kind of a story that ties adjacently to my professional speaking. I got my second master's and I somehow was just talking to my. A friend of mine, probably about getting a third one. And she was like, jen, you cannot get a third master's. You have to get a PhD now. Like, you cannot be the collector of masters. You have to get. And my mom didn't graduate high school, was a librarian, I think one of the most academic minded people. But I didn't even have this understanding of PhD, of this graduate level degree of just really a knowledge base. I mean, we all know medical doctors or dentists, but didn't know about this. And I just, I've always kind of relied on trusting my friends and what they see in me. And so I was like, okay, did very nonchalant. And then she said, you know, my mom got her her bachelor's and master's in geography at Michigan State. They have this program. You should look into it. And I said, okay. And I looked into it and sport geography, interestingly enough, if you think about sport, sports, sports is very geographical. Playing styles is very geographical. Just like if you, if you take baseball, for instance, someone's a baseball fan. How Asian countries, Japan, Korea, train their athletes. Compared to Dominican Republic, very different Cuba, very different training. So sport is very geographical, and that fandom is very geographical. If you think about a fan and how they. Patriots fan vs a Dallas Cowboys fan.
- [07:58]
Katie Weber
Right.
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Jen Fry
Fandom is very geographical. And so for me, I was like, I want to talk more about kind of the experiences of black female volleyball players in Europe, and look at that from a geographical idea. And who would let me do it. And so Michigan State, the chair, he had a class on the geography of sport or geography of football. And I was like, okay, well, I can go there and do it. And they let me. And so that was. I think one of the best parts about it is I was able to kind of make, like you said, patchwork this degree together. And. And that's what all a PhD usually is. A PhD is a patchwork of a bunch of stuff to talk about a really, really small topic. And so Michigan State allowed me to do that, and so became kind of probably one of the. A handful of sport geographers.
- [08:46]
Katie Weber
Okay, and now. But I heard you mention, I think it was on another podcast you had mentioned that, you know, you ended up moving into public speaking after you were helping a lot of people with, like, advocating for themselves. What was then the transition into public speaking?
- [09:04]
Jen Fry
Yeah, so what happened was that I decided to leave coaching, and I wasn't sure what I was going to do, and I went and worked at Duke, and I was working there in the Office of Undergraduate Scholars and Fellows. And then I was blogging a lot about kind of this intersection of race and sport in college athletics. And then Colin Kaepernick, Neal, probably like a month or two into me working at Duke, and then all of my friends were just very frantic, rightfully so. They're like, okay, my athletes want to kneel. What do I do? If I kneel, what do I do? What is my First Amendment right for speech? Public, private? Like, they just were kind of frantic about trying to figure out what to do. And I became the go to resource for them. And then someone said again, another friend said, you should look at becoming a professional speaker. And I had, like, you could. Told me I was going to Mars. I had no clue what that meant. And so I was like, okay, let me look into that. And I treated it like a skill. I think when a lot of people come to me and ask me about speaking, and I think the problem is, is that they lead with, how do I get paid versus how do I get good at this skill? And to me, that's always a conundrum, because if you lead with, well, I want to get paid, how do I do it? You are going to risk your reputation for taking an early check when you're not good. And so for me, I was willing to do as much free work as possible because I knew, like, I had to learn that you, yes, you can speak in front of your team, but they kind of, like, you're holding them hostage, like, they have to listen to you. Right. They can't just get up and leave. When you have a crowd of 500 people, they can get up and leave. And so you have to learn a very different skill set. And so I took time to learn it as a skill, not just, how do I get paid? Yeah.
- [10:45]
Katie Weber
I mean, on a smaller scale, I feel like I relate to that. Just as a podcaster, where I feel like podcasting is one of those things that, like, drumming or comedy, where people are like, how hard could it be? I'll do it. And I'm so. You know, I have a journalism background, so I credit my own journalist skills and curiosity with podcasting. And I'm like, you can't just show up and be like, all right. But I think a lot of podcasters do. That's a little side note.
- [11:14]
Jen Fry
Well, I think it's also the idea that when you're good at something, you make it look really easy. And since you make it look really easy, people ask, how hard can it be? Right. Yeah. Not understanding the amount of time that you've put in to make something look. If you can make a hard skill look easy, you've put a lot of time into it. And people, a lot of them don't think of it in that aspect. They think of it in the other aspect of, you've made it look so easy. How hard could these things be? And I think that's what concerns me, especially when it comes to speaking.
- [11:47]
Katie Weber
But I think there's something in there in terms of that's going to segue us to the book, which is like, you know, you just said, I did a lot of stuff for free. I sort of chased my own interests as I was building my skill. And some might look at that as, like, saying yes or people pleasing. Right. In. In some weird way, which is like you not knowing your worth, doing things for free. I think there's a real emphasis right now on, like, girl, you. You know, you gotta charge more, and, girl, you gotta know your worth. Like, I feel like a lot of the time it's almost like people especially, like, younger generations, like, Feel like they need to be paid before they have the experience or the skill. And I'm kind of like, am I being a doormat when I am not charging what I'm worth? If I feel like I'm getting a lot out of the experience as well, I feel like that's a difficult line to balance.
- [12:47]
Jen Fry
Oh, I think, Kay, that's such a good question. And I think the first thing that a lot of people don't realize is that in some cases you don't get to decide what you're worth. The market gets to decide what you're worth and the market determines that. Meaning you could say you're going to charge $30,000 for a keynote. You can say I'm worth that. The market will tell you I'm only going to pay 2000. Like the market tells you your worth when it comes to certain things. I think the next thing is that when it comes to professional speaking, once you take that check, you could get someone fired. And I don't think people really realize that is you can get someone fired. You take a check, they're like, oh, I can do this. You don't know how to handle people. You don't know how to facilitate, you don't know how to handle pushback, you don't know how to handle conflict. All these things you don't know how to handle. And it becomes a mess. And now the person that brought you in could be fired because you were completely ill equipped for the situation because you were worried about the check and not building the skill. And so I think it's a few different things. I think a, it's asking yourself, do I have the skill that's associated with receiving this check? And it's not that you have to be perfect, but I always like to think about like worst case scenarios. What's worst case scenario? If a employee starts screaming at another employee, am I able to handle that? If someone starts cursing, if someone starts saying something inappropriate like, am I able to handle these type of things? And so that makes me think, okay, if I take this $10,000, can whoever hired me trust that they're going to keep their job and I'm going to keep that. That's what I always think about when people bring me on. I want to make sure that you are leaving, keeping your job, and that people still trust you for bringing me in. I think the second thing that kind of comes with the market value is so, for instance, I was sitting at the intersection of race and sport for years. If you mentioned race and college Athletes like you mentioned. Jen Fry In 23, I pivoted to conflict and culture. That pivot means I have to introduce new information also to new audiences. That being said, I can't charge my previous market value yet because I'm entering a whole new just information, curriculum, identity, all these things, and to new industries. So my market value changes in some aspects. Could I keep saying, yeah, I'm going to charge 20,000? Yes, but the market at that time is not saying, we don't think you're worth it, and that's okay. And I have to build back up that market value. And I think another component of it is that if you've been doing this for a while, if you have all the media, the videos, the testimony, all that, you can start raising your rates and to see what the market believes in. But you have to. The market tells you your value. And that's the thing that many people don't realize. And I've had people who will come to me and be like, you know, I've done some panel discussions. I want to start getting paid. And I'm like, have you had to command a crowd by yourself for 45 minutes? No. Okay, well, maybe you should do that a few times before you start getting paid. You being on a panel with four other people means you maybe talked a total of 10 minutes and you had other people to protect you. Meaning if I said something stupid, Katie could come around and be like, you know what? So. And then you can go into another pivot and then pull the smoke away from me if I say something stupid by myself, I'm up there by myself. It's a very different experience. And I think a lot of people think because they've been on stage that then they get to charge. I'm like, no, you don't. And so I've been doing a lot of work for free, but in that, I don't feel like it's people pleasing. A, I'm deciding what work I'm doing. B, I'm deciding what value. Meaning if I do this keynote for free, you are flying me out. You're paying for my hotel. You're giving me all the video. That video could be worth $5,000. Right. So I'm saying, what other things can I get with it versus just saying yes to everything. I'm being very intentional about the free things I do and the industries I'm going into.
- [16:57]
Katie Weber
Yeah, I think there's also something there. As you were talking, I was thinking about, like, imposter syndrome, too, which maybe that's what it is not so much people pleasing, but that feeling of, like, when do you believe you have the right to be on that stage and charge that money? And I think that that's something, you know, there's a lot more kind of systemic stuff happening there, especially as women.
- [17:22]
Jen Fry
That's a better question of. Of the rates I charge now, that's where I've seen people who. I'm like, you're only charging how much? Oh, I'm like, no, you need to raise that rate. That I think, is a different aspect, because for some people, it's very hard to charge a lot. It's hard. And so what I tell folks is that if they're uncomfortable with that conversation, have a price sheet. So when someone contacts you about rates, just send them a price sheet and say, here are my rates. That way you don't have to talk. And then you can start having a conversation. But again, you get to determine what the price is. And if someone wants to come in and lowball you, you get to decide yes or no. Because the one rule that I live by, once I accept a price, I do not get to be mad about it. I've accepted that price. And I see a lot of people, you know, Katie will contact me and be like, hey, will you do this keynote for $2,000? And then I, you know, begrudgingly, I'm like, fine, I'll do it. And then I'm pissed the whole time.
- [18:23]
Katie Weber
I don't need to be pissed.
- [18:24]
Jen Fry
I accepted it. I could have said no. And so that's why I tell people, is whatever price you accept, if you accept a carton of eggs and some cheese as your price, then you have to be happy with that. You do not get to be upset with the price that you accepted. You don't. If you feel it's below your worth, you don't get to accept it and then be pissed off saying that they're paying you below your worth. That's not the way it works.
- [18:47]
Katie Weber
Yeah, I love when you talk about that in the book too, about just, like, the existence of resentment. Because I feel like I talk about that with my family too when it comes to doing things and making decisions where I'm like, if there's resentment in any of this, then you're people pleasing. And so, like, look for the resentment. And that's like a flag for you to see. Like, okay, what am I expecting that I'm not getting? And why did I expect that? And, like, you know, a lot of sort of working backwards from the resentment, which I find is very helpful for me because a lot of the time I don't realize I'm people pleasing until it's too late. Which is another question I will have for you. But going back to I said no, which is just a fantastic title for a book, I love it.
- [19:31]
Jen Fry
Thank you.
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Katie Weber
How to have Boundaries and Backbone While not being a Jerk. Like I said, as soon as I saw the title, I was like, I have to read this. It was a fantastic book. I really love. I mean, I think a lot of what you say, I wouldn't say I've heard it before, but it's like, I feel like there's so much that makes sense. I'm also just like, what is the disconnect between being able to hear it and be like, you know what? Other people's opinions of me are none of my business. Like, I've heard all of that stuff so many times. But I was so curious to know from your point of view, like, why, I guess even from an ADHD point of view, why do you think so many ADHD people specifically have such a hard time with boundaries and saying no?
- [20:17]
Jen Fry
I think in some aspects it's because they want to be the end all, be all to everyone to prove that they can do it all. And so what better way to prove you can do it all is by saying yes to everything. And then to me, like you said, it falls absolutely within the people pleasing aspect. Because when you say yes to everyone now everyone has a lot of these expectations on you that you feel like you have to do. And the second you say no, why can't you? What's wrong? And now it becomes this cycle. You know, I think also a hard part about that is that when you teach people that you're always saying yes and you don't have boundaries, then what happens is that when you do set a boundary and you're like, okay, I'm going to set a boundary with this thing, people don't know how to handle it. Like I say, people are habitual line steppers. They will consistently step over the line. And if you are a people pleaser, you might say, okay, no, I can't do it. And then the first time they push back or step over the boundary, okay, yes, I can do it, I can do it. And you would rather wear yourself thin than the thought of consistently saying no to people. Because the reality of situation is that the first no is a lot easier than the consistent nos. Because what happens is that when you are consistently saying no, people will keep badgering you and that's where folks get exhausted, is that they will just. I'll just say yes. It means a lot to you, obviously, because you keep asking. So I'll say yes versus it takes a lot of a person to consistently say no when they're being badgered by one person or when it comes to family, how the whole family will start doing it, right? They'll be like, jen, just do it for Katie. You know, she's exhausted. And right now you have your cousins, your sister, your uncle. Just do it. It's not a big deal. And so you're trying to say no to one person. Now you have to say no to six people and text messages and emails and. And that's where people don't understand how hard it is to start setting boundaries because of all the other pressure and badgery in some aspects that occurs. Hmm.
- [22:28]
Katie Weber
Oh, my goodness. I just had such a visceral reaction to that when I thought of my family and that, like, it's not a big deal. Just do it, you know? Oh, my goodness.
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All right.
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I needed to, like, recover from that one.
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Jen Fry
But can I go back to that? Katie, real quick? Is that people don't understand how hard that family pressure is to break. Like, they don't. And so it becomes the, like you said, sitting in the resentment. I'll just do it. Even though I don't have time to drive 45 minutes across town to grab something for you, I don't have time. It breaks up my whole day because now I have five people on my butt about it. I will just do it to get everyone off my butt. And the. The setting of the first boundary, it's. It's hard, but it's not going to be the hardest one. It's a consistent badgering to get you to break down and in a way for you to never set a boundary again. Because I'm gonna. If I keep. If we all keep badgering you, you learn really quickly. If you set a boundary, we are going to. Just literally everyone's going to keep attacking until you finally stop doing it. And then you learn not to set any boundaries again.
- [23:41]
Katie Weber
There is no shortage of ADHD advice online right now, and it can be difficult to know who or what to trust. That's one of the reasons I appreciate Inflow. Inflow is a self help app designed specifically for adults with adhd, especially women who are late, diagnosed, or still making sense of how ADHD actually shows up in real life. Think of it like Duolingo for adhd. Every day you get short interactive lessons. You can complete in about five minutes. I really appreciate the compassion and thoughtfulness.
- [24:08]
That goes into this app.
- [24:09]
They have learning modules, recordings from experts in the field, and an active, supportive community. For me, what really sets Inflow apart is trust. The content is grounded in evidence based psychology, not hacks or TikTok trends. It was founded by a psychologist who specializes in ADHD and has ADHD himself. The app has been evaluated through formal research and is an official partner of organizations like ada, the Attention Deficit Disorder association and Attitude Magazine. After years of sorting through ADHD advice and tips and tricks, it feels good to find an app that helps me understand my brain first traits like procrastination, emotional overwhelm, time blindness and negative self talk so I can make informed decisions about what strategies actually, actually work for me without the shame. If you're looking for ADHD support that's thoughtful, relatable and research based, you can start with Inflow's free ADHD Traits Quiz at womenandadhd.com Inflow I N F L O Again, that's womenandadhd.com inflow one of.
- [25:12]
The things that happened to me, and I've talked about this on the podcast before, like you know, during the pandemic and lockdown, it was, I mean it was, I think it was the first time in my life I felt regulated. It was a really amazing experience. I think I'm not the only one who just really kind of benefited from having the rug pulled out from all of the things I was in the middle of doing. And it really made me look at how much I had over committed myself. I was a chronic volunteer and I would always complain about the fact that I would like join a board and then I'd have my hand up and the next thing you know I'm the president of the, the board. And I was always just perpetually overwhelmed. I still am, but I sort of felt like, like you said that first. No. Had to be much further, further ahead, right? So I just was like I decided during the pandemic that I was not going to volunteer for anything until I could figure out how to have a better balance. And it really helped me to sort of say like, nope, that's just a solid no. And then like you talk about in the book, it's like, like, like you, you liken it to like reps at a gym, right? It's like it's a muscle that you build. The, the no is a muscle in terms of. It just got easier from there to say no to things because I realized how important it was to not say no to myself. And that's what I was doing. And I feel like, you know, that that idea of, like, what is the cost of saying yes? Is so important. But one of the things I find that I relate very much to in terms of ADHD is like, how do I say no to myself? I say that sometimes to people and they look at me like, what are you talking about? But I feel like that's very common with ADHD is the overexcitement. I think there's a combination there of like time blindness maybe, like, sure, I have time to do this. And a little bit of what you said earlier about like, wanting to prove to everyone that I can do it, because there's like a lot of childhood stuff around that, right? And like living up to your potential and be proving I'm good at things. But I also just have, like, this past weekend alone, I was like, I really want to take voice lessons. I really want to volunteer at the library. I want to do, you know, like, all weekend.
- [27:26]
Jen Fry
Katie. I was looking into flying lessons. I was looking into flying lessons, right?
- [27:33]
Katie Weber
And then it's also like impulsive shopping, right? Like, I look at all of these things that are very much ADHD related and I have to just be like, it's a full time job pulling back in terms of my own enthusiasm and my own desire and my own ideas. And I feel like that is a very unique no. I don't have as much of a problem of modeling boundaries and saying no to other people. But what I really struggle with is I feel perpetually just overstretched. And like, every time there's like something free in my calendar, it gets filled up like this with something I've said yes to because I really wanted to. And I feel like I have a hard time distinguishing between, like, what I, you know, that feeling of like, just because you can doesn't mean you shouldn't. And it's like, just because you want to doesn't mean you can look for me.
- [28:30]
Jen Fry
When I look at blocks on my calendar, I'm like, what else can I do? What can I fill it with? And I agree with you on kind of this overextending. The, the way I think I can get through these lists, I'm like, girl, ain't no way. But I will make these lists. And thinking I can do that, you know, I will all of a sudden be like, I wonder if I can on a Saturday, just paint my living room walls. Like, I just 100% instead of saying, like, just rest it's okay if you have two hours or three hours or an afternoon, you can just rest and it's completely okay. Everything doesn't have to be filled like you said, just because the opportunity is there and you don't have to pick up a new hobby because you have a weekend free. Like, I literally was looking at flying lessons. I was like, how long would it take for me to get my private pilot license? Jen, you do not. I told my chief of staff, she would murder me. Why am I looking at private lessons for becoming a pilot? I do not need to be that. But like you said, I go down this rabbit hole, I'm like, how hard could it be? How long would it. I do not have the time to learn how to be a damn pilot. And that's the problem is that we think we have the time and then we put ourselves in it and then it just keeps going downhill that way.
- [29:46]
Katie Weber
Yeah, right. Well, and that's where I sort of end up in a lot of situations where I have said yes to people and then I either disappoint them or I disappoint myself because I am run ragged and I'm kind of like, I don't even know where to put the boundary in. I guess it's like you said, it's sort of like at some point I have to just be like, you can't. Like, that's it. It's a hard no in terms of just like, do not agree to things. And so I do find that there are times where I'm just like, no, I'm shutting down my calendar. It's off limits, nothing more. But it does feel like a full time job kind of pulling back from a lot of that stuff.
- [30:24]
Jen Fry
Well, I think the problem also with ADHD is that we go through rabbit holes so quickly and we find stuff so interesting. And when we find something so interesting, we are just diving down the rabbit hole. It's hours into it. And then it's like, yeah, I think I could do that. I think I can learn Chinese in two weeks. Right? Like, I like this stuff that we think about. It's like, no, you can't. No, you can't. You can't do all this. And so for me, I am a rabbit hole person. If I find something interesting, good luck. Because you're not pulling me out from that. And if it means if there's something now I have to buy to do it. Like. Like I have a love of Legos now and the amount of Legos, I. Because my friend bought me this cat up there.
- [31:07]
Katie Weber
Oh, yeah.
- [31:08]
Jen Fry
And that was my downhill. And now I research all the Legos I bought, right? Like the rabbit holes I go down because of my interest level. Like I said, my chief of staff can time block. She is very much like that. And I am all over the place. But also, you know, one of the things I've learned is I have five degrees, I have two businesses. I figured out how do I under this umbrella of adhd, how do I be gen? How do I get stuff done? How do I figure out my life and the part of getting stuff done? Because like you said, the time blindness. I'll look at 7pm and be like, oh, I still got like five hours. I'm. I'm good. And then 1am hits and I'm like, what just happened? And so it really is figuring out how do I continue to work within the parameters of adhd, doing what I need to do. And like I said, one of my hesitancies in taking medicine is I don't know what it will do to my mind when I'm on stage. Because I've been able to figure it out. I can be on stage, I'm talking to a crowd of 500 people. I can look through slides to figure out what my next slide will be, what topic I want to connect it to, what thing I want to transition. It will all at the same time, I am worried that I won't be able to have those ways to do it. Because the only way you have to figure out if you can still do it is if you're doing it in the moment. And then I don't want an audience to be my guinea pigs. And so for me, it's how do I figure out under this ADHD umbrella doing the things I need to do in a way that also is healthy? Meaning I'm not staying up till 4am doing stuff because I've gone down a rabbit hole. I'm able to say, okay, get your butt to bed now. There's no point of staying up.
- [32:54]
Katie Weber
Yeah, well, and it also sounds like your chief of staff is a very helpful accountability partner, which I think, oh, my gosh.
- [33:03]
Jen Fry
She will be like, we are shutting down your calendar. Do not book anything on these days. I'd be like, okay, you sure? So she's great with that. And my friends, it's funny because my friends all go to sleep early. My best friend, he lives in Albuquerque, she'll go to sleep at like 8:30 and she'll be like, okay, you're gonna try and go to sleep early. Today I'm like, yeah, okay, Sarah, I'll try. But I feel like I get my best work done once it hits, like, 11 o'. Clock. And I'm just like, now I can do everything well.
- [33:31]
Katie Weber
And even with spending money, too. I mean, thankfully, I'm married to somebody who is much better with money than I am. And I kind of elected him as the budget person when we got married. And I. I said, like, put me on a very strict budget because I will keep spending money until I. Until it's gone. So if you keep me on a very, very strict budget, then, you know, then when I'm done, I'm done. And people used to look at me like, what are you? Like, they were like, blink twice if you need help. Like, they would always think I was in this terrible, dominated marriage, but I was like, no. I instilled that this was long before I even knew about adhd, But I was like, I did that for my own good. And I think it's that same idea of, like, looking about these ways in which we intuitively set boundaries ahead of time, knowing that it might be difficult in the moment to set those boundaries.
- [34:21]
Jen Fry
Yeah. I mean, it's funny because again, like, I am this big idea person. I want to do it all. And the way dawn handles that now is she's like, I'm not doing it. Do you have time in your schedule to do it? And I'll be like, oh, nevermind, no. And that way, right? She's like, I'm not doing this stuff. And so that's helped out a lot of like, do you have time on your schedule to do this for project? And I'd be like, nope, I don't. And so having people around that can help in that way, I think is so important because I have so much going on on a consistent basis. And there you need people in your life that can kind of put their foot down and say, you're not doing that. Like, no. And so that's why I tell Don some of this stuff, just say yes or no. It doesn't bother me because you, you see my calendar, you know what it's like. She'll be like, okay, these days, we're closed. You're not doing anything else. But you need people to put parameters for you. If it's your partner saying like, okay, here's your budget, and that's what works for you, then that's what works for you and keeps you and your relationship healthy.
- [35:21]
Katie Weber
Yeah, I work with a lot of business owners who, who have that, that micromanagement I wouldn't say it's, like, nefarious, but there's that, like you were saying, like that. That feeling, like, if we have an idea, it's up to me to do it because I'm the one in charge. I don't know, you kind of have to unravel that. That micromanagement. And I think there's a perfectionism element there, too, of just like, if I want it done, I'll do it myself. Kind of feeling that a lot of us have when we're really. That feeling of like, oh, I wish I could clone myself. A lot of those statements that you hear from perfectionists who. But I work with a lot of business owners who then feel like they have to do everything. And it's very similar to what you were saying with your chief of staff, which is like, you don't do anything. You generate ideas and you delegate and that's. That's it. Right. But it's like starting from the beginning, just making sure that, like, if you need somebody else to do it for you in order to give you the time to do the things that you actually want to do.
- [36:19]
Jen Fry
Not really. I think for me, what it is is that it's this idea of, do you have time on your schedule to do it? Meaning, like, if we're going to take on. Because I hate to say this, most of my ideas are not small. Most of my. I mean, I started a tech company. Like, my ideas are not small. And so it's this idea of everything that it entails. Do you have the bandwidth to also do it and manage it? Because there's so much that is involved with it? Yes, you can say, I have this idea and then delegate. But there's so much of it that you have to be involved in to get off the ground. You have to get it off. If I were to say, I mean, just a very big picture of I want to start a shirt company, well, I can tell someone I want to start a shirt company, but then I have to be the one to talk about what type of shirts, what color shirts, you know, what sizing do I want, what type of material. I have to have all of those things to be able for them to do their job well. And if I don't have all that information, they can't do their job well. And so that's what Don means is like, do you have this on your schedule, or do you have the ability on your schedule? Because if you can't do this stuff to get it off the ground, you're going to make everyone else's jobs a lot harder. Yeah. And I, in no way am I a perfectionist. For me, my PhD was bees get PhDs. Like, I am a solid B level. I've had to tell Don, we are. We are not perfectionists. We can't move fast with perfection. So that is one thing I can pride myself on, is that there is no perfectionism here. Bees get PhDs.
- [37:48]
Katie Weber
Was there anything specific that led to the creation of the book or the Genesis?
- [37:54]
Jen Fry
You know, So I think the first thing is, is I got done with my dissertation. Everyone just kept asking, so, are you going to write a book? And I'm like, I just got done with the 403 page dissertation. Can you give me, like, 0.2 seconds to breathe? And then a book has always been in my mind, but I didn't know, like, what that even entailed. And most of the big projects I take on, I don't realize that until I'm in the middle of it. And so when I move topics to conflict and culture, the idea is, if you want to get on bigger stages, you have to have a book. Unless you are like a celebrity or have some type of disability or you're missing a limb, you have to have a book. And so once I knew that, okay, if I want to get to the next level, I want to have a book, well, I had to think about, what is this book going to be? And one of the things I think, when you're writing a book that is nonfiction that involves parts of your lives, you don't realize how personal it actually is to write. And then understanding that the stories you tell about people in your life, that that's going to be the reader's only image of them. So you have to be a little bit more thoughtful about it. So in it, there's. There's stories about my mom and my family members. And it's like, okay, how do I want this person who's going to read this book who has never met them? What image do I want to leave them with about my mom? And so for me, just starting to think about writing this book was like, okay, there's going to be a personal element to it. What do I want to leave people with? And the first title was actually called Kind. I'd have a Backbone Boundary without being a jerk. But then people were just kind of pushed back. They're like, if you want to go into colleges, you can't have a cuss word and all that. And so the next title that came up to Me was this idea of, I say no because that tends to be one of the biggest problems that people have is that ability to say it. And so it was like, if I want to get on some big stages, I want to have a book, but then also, what do I want this book to be about? And so I would say that for the first time writing it was a really cool experience to do this. I self published. I didn't go through traditional publishing again, the adhd, I ain't got time. Like, y' all are supposed to release this book in two years. No, I'm gonna be on book number three by then, baby. Like, I ain't got time to wait this time. And when I wanna do something, I want it done immediately. Like, there's no waiting. And so for me, once I started seeing that with traditional publishing, you have to do proposals and you have to farm it out. I said, I'm doing it myself. And so I was able all in to do my book from beginning to end was $2,500. And I went on fiverr and found some phenomenal editors. I did. So Vistaprint has a company that's offshoot called 99designs, which designed my whole cover and did a phenomenal job. They you, you send in all your information, they do a contest. So I had over a hundred people put in designs for it. And so it was just such a great experience from beginning to end. So now I know exactly what's a part of it. So for my next books, I already have an idea that if I do do hybrid or traditional publishing, I have an idea of what the process is and where my involvement needs to be.
- [41:15]
Katie Weber
Yeah, that was great. Yeah, I had a similar experience. Again, I didn't know I had ADHD at the time, but I self published my first book and it was very similar. It was like it was all done very quickly and I rode the hyper focus wave. And I don't. I can't imagine having to sit and wait for. For two years, girl.
- [41:35]
Jen Fry
I literally, like I said I wanted to have my book written the first draft by the end of 2024. And so, you know, a lot of people when they are talking about writing books, they're like, okay, clear your desk, set your intentions. You know, put your candles on. And I was like, I ain't got time for that. So it would literally be me in the car like this, dictating to note. Yeah, that's how I wrote my whole book was like this, talking to it when I'm driving. And for me, my best Ideas are in the shower when I'm driving long distances. So I would just keep reading and saying everything and then from that point did the editing and line by line. But that's how I wrote the book. But when people are like, yeah, I'm looking at my book coming out in 2026, 2027, girl, what? I'm going to be on book three by 2027. Like, I couldn't even fathom sitting there and just waiting for X a year or two. Absolutely not. No way, no how.
- [42:35]
Katie Weber
I love the fact that your initial title was Kinda asshole because you do talk about the difference between being nice and being kind and a lot. You know how so many of us feel like if we have boundaries, if we say no, it means we're not being nice. And you know, that doesn't happen in a vacuum. Vacuum. A lot of the time it is we're told straight out, right?
- [42:55]
Jen Fry
Oh, 100.
- [42:57]
Katie Weber
So, so explain in your own words then now, like, what is the difference between niceness and kindness?
- [43:04]
Jen Fry
Well, I think a lot of it, niceness gets weaponized to us to keep us submissive, you know, you're not being nice, Katie. You're. It means to me that you're willing to do whatever for anybody just to make sure that you don't rock the boat. How many times when it's like, just be a nice girl, just be nice. You know, I know he said something mean to you, but. But be nice. And to me it just means being completely walked over. Kind means you, you self advocate, you have boundaries, you stand up for yourself. You understand that part of that is that people will be upset with you and you're okay with that. I think so many people, especially women in society, the fear of not being thought of as nice will have them doing and being in horrendous positions. Coming from working in college athletics, the amount of young ladies that put themselves in horrible positions because they didn't want to seem like they were mean, that they didn't want to seem like they weren't nice. They would, they would be in places where like you saw them, they're doing drugs. These things are happening. Why didn't you want to leave? Well, I just. People wouldn't think I was nice if I did that. Girl.
- [44:10]
Katie Weber
What?
- [44:11]
Jen Fry
And so they leave themselves in horrible predicaments. And so for me, we have to kind of dispel this idea that being nice is good. I think, like I tell people, I am not nice, I'm kind, I am not nice. I do not want people to weaponize that against me. Because if I say no, I don't want people to be like, no, just be nice. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. My. No. Like, I tell people, I go and try to tell someone else to do stuff because you're not going to tell me. Like, I do not fall to peer pressure at all. Like, I'm the worst person to try that with. And so I wish so many women would stop worrying about being nice that they would just have that out of their vocabulary. They'd stop telling their daughters to be nice and telling them to be kind. And the things that come with being kind mean. You hold people accountable, you push back on things that people say they're problematic. You hold yourself to a different standard. And being nice, none of that occurs. I just think niceness is weaponized way too much against people.
- [45:13]
Katie Weber
Yeah, well, I mean, in hindsight, like, when I met my husband, we were, I was, I'm actually four years older than he is, so I had four more years experience in the field. We were both met at the same job as journalists at the same newspaper. And you know, that was like in our 20s. And I watched him, a white guy, get promoted over and over and over again and make more money than me. And oftentimes the reason was never, oh, well, you know, there's misogyny and sexism in the workplace, which is what should have been said. But oftentimes I was told it was because I wasn't likable, you know, or I needed to be nicer because I wasn't, you know, I was very blunt and I was very like, roll up shirt sleeves. And I never took both. And I kind of, that was like, I couldn't be any other way, but was often told that the reason why I wasn't getting promoted was because I had this like, you know, bristly personality. And. Yeah, and so I feel like there is, like, that's what I mean. It doesn't happen in a vacuum. I think there are a lot of women who, you know, we, we prove our worth by how many plates we can spin and how much we can do and how many people we can appeal to and be likable to. And, and, you know, and, and with an ADHD diagnosis in adulthood, like, I think a lot of the time one of the things I love about getting older is the fact that I give less of a shit every year what people think about me. And so I think a lot of women, you know, get diagnosed with adhd in their 30s and 40s because they get to that point where they're like, I'm sorry. Like, I'm done with this house of cards, and I'm not doing it anymore. And I'm not gonna be like, hold. Trying to do everything for everybody. I'm really struggling. And, like. And then it all falls apart. And that's kind of where they start to see the ADHD elements come through. And so I know you talk about assertiveness versus aggressiveness and a lot of the way, but I feel like it's really easy to say, like, don't worry about how you're being perceived, but it's also a reality, too. And how do you. What kind of advice do you give to women who feel like, you know, they may have gone further in life or in their career if they were nicer?
- [47:36]
Jen Fry
They think it's always very easy to romanticize and to romanticize. Had I been nicer, had I kept quiet, I would have gotten further. But you don't really know that. What in reality could have happened is that you got 10 more duties under the same title with the same pay. That's more than likely what would happen, is that you being nice would have been like, okay, Katie, can you take on John's work? John's not feeling well. Can you also take on Steve's this. And now you're carrying everyone's work because you're so nice. You're leaving at 8pm because you have all this stuff to do, right? Like, I think we romanticize the promotions we would have gotten if we were just nicer. And I just push back on that. Niceness has not gotten women a promotion. Niceness has got a woman way more work with no title upgrade and no salary increase. It hasn't gotten anything. And I think the thing about it is that you have to be ready with the consequences of not being thought of as nice. And if someone tells me you're not being nice, I'm like, okay, Ann, what's your point? Okay, it doesn't bother me. And I think, like I said, niceness is weaponized. If I can say, katie, you're just not being nice, I can get in your head to think you. To have you think, okay, well, I'll just be nice this time. I don't want to be thought as mean and all that. And that's just not true. Women, the whole, like, just work harder. You'll get the promotion. We don't get that. We just get more duties. We get more put on us. And so I want. If. If women are sitting there saying, like, my career could have gone xyz if I just would have been nice. No, it wouldn't have. You're just romanticizing that they would have given you the promotion and all that. No, they were just giving you more work. That's all it is. Yeah.
- [49:22]
Katie Weber
I mean, I remember when Hillary Clinton lost to Trump in 2016. Right. I mean, even my own mother at the time, she's passed now, but I remember her saying, like, I'm not against a woman as president. It's just I didn't like that woman. You know, it was just like. I don't know, there was just something about her. And I was like, what are you talking about? She's literally the most qualified female politician ever. Nobody is more qualified than her. And then with Kamala, it was a lot of the same stuff. Right. Which is like, she's just. I don't know. She's not, like, friendly enough. Right. Like, it's just like.
- [49:58]
Jen Fry
And.
- [49:58]
Katie Weber
And I don't think the answer is we need friendlier women.
- [50:01]
Jen Fry
Right.
- [50:02]
Katie Weber
But, like, I also feel like, you know, it's this different, I guess, the glass ceiling. Right. Of, like, at some point, I think there's just a limit to where you get in in certain arenas as a woman, whether you're nice or not.
- [50:20]
Jen Fry
Well, I think it's funny because it's like, Kamala is like, Hillary, they need to be nicer. And then you have Trump who's like, I hate immigrants. Everyone's like, yeah, right, exactly. It's like, what? But like, you. You can't have a person running the country, and all you're focused on is niceness. Like, they are responsible for millions of people. They're responsible for this whole country. Yes. There has to be a level of kindness. But if them being nice is what you're centering, you're looking at the wrong thing. And I mean, the reality of it is that is it going to be that people look at women differently because we are not nice? Yes. And I want women to sleep well knowing that they didn't have people just running amok on them because they let them. I want women to be able to say, someone didn't like this, but I'm also going to sleep well because I wasn't their pack mule.
- [51:21]
Katie Weber
Right? Yeah, absolutely. And I agree with you. Like, I don't think the idea is to be nicer, but I do think that there's a formula, I guess, to likability that assertive women, usually especially assertive women who are marginalized. Right. I mean, you talk about the black, angry black woman trope in the book, too. It's very real. But, like, I feel like there's. There's a difference there in terms of likability and marketability and having a backbone.
- [51:53]
Jen Fry
Yeah, there. There was some articles on that. Like, what you were talking about was likability. There's a Forbes article I just looked up about the power of likability. And so a hundred percent that is a big thing with women is the power of, like, there's so much stuff on, like, likability tests. There's so much on that of a likable person is going to go farther than someone who gets shit done. Right. Like, let's be honest, if you're like, you will go farther. And I think there's also part of it, how far women get if they act like men.
- [52:34]
Katie Weber
We just.
- [52:34]
Jen Fry
We sit on this. It's not only a tightrope, Katie, it is a piece of dental floss. Like, we sit on a piece of dental floss trying to massage both sides at all times, and it's exhausting. And the only person that loses in that is us.
- [52:52]
Katie Weber
I agree. I'm not sighing because of you. I'm just sighing because of. Of society right now. And it's a lot. It's a lot. And I think. You know, what I think I took from your book to heart was at the end of the day, when there are so many things that feel out of your control, the most important thing for us and our mental health and our spiritual and physical health is living authentically and saying at the end of the day that, like, I was true to myself. And I think that that's something that a lot of us. And I actually feel like an ADHD diagnosis for me, really helped me get to that point, which is like, I read that realization of how much I wasn't living authentically, how much I was masking, how much I felt like I was trying to control how people viewed me or, you know, environments. And there was, like, a letting go in a lot of ways in terms of, like, I need to focus on my own boundaries. I need to focus on my own, like I said, not saying no to me, really. Like, I can't disappoint myself. So I'm going to have to live as authentically as possible. And I really appreciated that part of the book, I guess. What do you hope most people get from reading the book?
- [54:08]
Jen Fry
That you're worth it. That it's hard. Let me preface. It is hard as hell to set boundaries, to say no to, to self advocate, especially if you've Never been trained that, like many women, have not been trained in those skills. So it's really hard at the beginning to start do it. But you're worth it. You are worth learning how to handle people, pushing back and being habitual line steppers. You are worth just saying no. And even if it's. You just sit in your office and do nothing rather than do that thing like, you are worth it. And I think so many women are taught that they're not worth it. And that's what hurts my heart. Is like, you are worth saying no and setting boundaries for any other reason, but just for yourself. Yeah.
- [54:49]
Katie Weber
Well, this has been wonderful. Thank you so much. What's next for you? I know you do a lot of speaking engagements and you're promoting the book. And when's your next book? That's a joke. Because I like. I know people say that immediately. It's like you don't get time to rest.
- [55:04]
Jen Fry
But the funny part is I told my chief of staff, whenever I'm like, so there's this thing I'm doing. She's like, what now? So I'm actually in the process of writing two books at the same time. So one of them is I come from college athletics and youth sports right now. So I come from college athletics. I coach youth volleyball. But in youth sports right now, there's so much conflict. Parents don't have any skills, Kids don't have skills, coaches, administrator, no one. So I'm writing a book for parents on navigating conflict of being in these Facebook groups and seeing what are the biggest problems that parents keep coming up with. So I think that's one of the books I'm doing, like, simultaneously. And the other one is called the Courage of the Pivot. I think in my life, there have been several points where I've pivoted. And folks talk about pivoting, but they don't talk about the mouth courage. You need to leave the thing you know, to go to the thing you don't know, and you have no clue how it's going to work out at all. And so for me, those are two books I'm kind of writing at the same time, which is all adhd, Right? That's epitome of adhd. Let me write two books at the same time. So in my notes, I just am speaking the different chapters. And so that's what I'm doing right now is these two books. That's what I said. By 2027, baby, I'm gonna be three books in. Yeah. So I got stuff to do now that I know the way to do it. Like, you couldn't have given me the keys to the kingdom. Now I understand. So, yeah. So that's what I'm doing right now, is writing those two books because I think parents need to think about conflict and their kids in a different way, and I think I have the skill set and knowledge to help them with that.
- [56:43]
Katie Weber
Yeah, right. And I think, you know, something touching that you said about your mom, too, in the book, that desire to kind of keep the peace, but also the conflict avoidance is very different than conflict resolution.
- [56:58]
Jen Fry
Yeah. 100%. You can't have harmony without conflict. And people just don't realize that whenever people be like, I'm dating. We've never had a fight, and I'm like, oh, good luck. It's about to be World War Three. Like, that just. It's not rational to think you can date this person that's totally different from you. And there's no arguing. That's just not rational.
- [57:20]
Katie Weber
And even the courage to pivot, I mean, that's. I don't even know if it's courage for me or if it's just lack of interest when I just, like, you know, suddenly move into a new field and a completely new. I mean, I've had so many different jobs that I used to have a lot of shame around. Right. Where I was like, oh, I can't hold down a job. I'm always doing this. I'm like, you know, I can't finish things. I used to hold a lot of shame around that. I think a lot of women do, especially ADHD women. But now I'm kind of like, oh, no, this is just like, I'm moving where my. I'm following the dopamine.
- [57:51]
Right.
- [57:52]
And I never really think about the courage it takes to do that. And so I like that reframe, you know, that it. Yeah, there is really courage there and not just kind of flakiness.
- [58:03]
Jen Fry
Well, there is. I think there's two things. First, I think that college volleyball gave me the ability to talk about changing jobs because you can. I had, like, four different jobs at four different years because that's just college volleyball. You go. You're. Someone gets hired and they want you, or your whole staff gets fired. Like, college volleyball is a very different beast when it comes to hiring and firing than other people. And so because of that, going to jobs, I can talk about that really. Well, I think that when it comes to pivoting, I don't think people realize how much courage it takes. It's really easy to sit in a job you hate because you don't want to leave it. It's very easy. And I think we can talk, we can think about people who have been in jobs for 10, 20, 30, 40 years who they hate because they didn't want to leave. And so for me, it takes a lot of courage to say I hate this job more than I hate what could potentially be on the other side.
- [58:58]
Katie Weber
Yeah, awesome. Well, thank you so much. It's been delightful to talk to you. I will jenfreytalks.com is the website that's where people can find you. And I'll have links to all of your social accounts too in the show notes, as well as a link to I said no. I'll probably even put a link to the Forbes article on likability in the show notes there. But yeah, thank you so much for your time. This has been really great and really appreciate this conversation.
- [59:26]
Jen Fry
I just appreciate you for having me on here and having this podcast and talking about things that women tend to not think that's acceptable to talk about. So I appreciate you friend.
- [59:35]
Katie Weber
Oh thanks.
- [59:42]
There you have it.
- [59:42]
Thank you for listening and I really hope you enjoyed this episode of the.
- [59:46]
Women and ADHD Podcast. If you'd like to find out more about me and my coaching programs, head over to womenandadhd.com if you're a woman who was diagnosed with ADHD and you'd like to apply to be a guest on this podcast, visit womeninadhd.com podcastguest and you can find that link in the episode Show Notes.
- [60:04]
Also, you know we ADHDers crave feedback.
- [60:06]
And I would really appreciate hearing from you, the listener. Please take a moment to leave me a review on Apple Podcasts or Audible.
- [60:13]
And if that feels like too much and I totally get it, please just take a few seconds right now to.
- [60:18]
Give me a five star rating or share this episode on your own social media to help reach more women who maybe have yet to discover and lean into this gift of neurodivergency. And they may be struggling and they.
- [60:29]
Don'T even even know why. I'll see you next time when I.
- [60:32]
Interview another amazing woman who discovered she's not lazy or crazy or broken. But she has ADHD and she's now on the path to understanding her neurodivergent mind and finally using this gift to her advantage. Take care till then.