020. Elaine Lustig Cohen and Steven Heller: Rewriting Design History

Summary

Women Designers You Should Know: Episode 020 - Elaine Lustig Cohen: Untrained & Unstoppable (w/ Stephen Heller)

In Episode 020 of the Women Designers You Should Know podcast, host Amber Asay shines a spotlight on the extraordinary career of Elaine Lustig Cohen, a trailblazing figure in modern American graphic design. Joined by acclaimed design historian and writer Stephen Heller, the episode delves deep into Elaine's journey from an untrained designer to a pivotal force in a predominantly male industry, highlighting her resilience, creativity, and lasting impact on design history.

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1. Introduction to Elaine Lustig Cohen

The episode opens with Amber Asay introducing Elaine Lustig Cohen as both a fine artist and designer who, despite lacking formal training in design, became a leading figure in the modernist movement of the 1950s. Elaine initially focused on fine art but was thrust into the design world through her marriage to the renowned designer Alvin Lustig. After Alvin's untimely death in 1955, Elaine not only continued his legacy but also carved out her own distinct path in the design landscape.

Amber Ac (00:10): "Elaine... was a testament to resilience, creativity and an unwavering sense of modernist purpose."

2. The Interview Begins: Stephen Heller's Perspective

Stephen Heller brings his extensive experience, having authored over 200 books on design and pop culture, to explore how Elaine broke into the male-dominated design world and shaped it. He emphasizes the importance of rewriting history to include more women, ensuring their contributions are rightfully celebrated.

Stephen Heller (02:55): "I owe a lot of my design education to you as I'm sure a lot of others do."

3. Elaine's Early Life and Upbringing

Elaine was born in Jersey City in 1927 as Elaine Furstenberg. Raised in a liberal environment where working women were the norm, she never felt a significant gender gap in her early professional experiences. Her mother’s role as a working woman influenced Elaine's perception of gender roles, fostering a sense of equality from a young age.

Elaine Lustig Cohen (03:58): "Women are equal, if not equal."

4. Transition into Design through Marriage

Elaine's formal entry into the design world came through her marriage to Alvin Lustig, a prominent modernist designer. Initially sidelined in his studio, Elaine’s role expanded as Alvin's health declined due to diabetes. She began assisting more with his projects, gaining hands-on experience right in the heart of the modernist movement.

Elaine Lustig Cohen (23:18): "She was prevented from designing when they first got married, he left her out of the work equation."

5. Taking Over Alvin's Studio

After Alvin's passing in 1955, Elaine took over his influential design studio. Despite having no formal design training, she managed high-profile projects, including the Seagram Building signage in New York. Her ability to maintain and enhance the studio’s modernist ethos earned her the trust of architectural giants like Philip Johnson, establishing her as a formidable designer in her own right.

Stephen Heller (02:00): "Elaine's rise from an assistant to an acclaimed designer... makes her one of the most intriguing figures in design history."

6. Expanding Her Portfolio: Book Covers and Museum Catalogs

Elaine's prolific career includes over 150 book covers and museum catalogs. She seamlessly integrated European avant-garde aesthetics into American modern graphic design, creating visually striking and innovative designs. Notable works discussed include:

• The Book of Jazz: Featuring fragmented, dancing "J"s that create rhythmic visual compositions.
• Politics: Who Gets What, When, and How: Utilizing alternating exclamation points and question marks to convey political statements.

Elaine Lustig Cohen (34:03): "I never thought of myself as a decorative designer. I always thought of design as having to function first and then it could be beautiful."

7. Transition to Fine Art

In the 1960s, Elaine began to focus more on painting and collage, merging her graphic design expertise with fine art. Her Untitled series from the 1970s showcases bold, flat planes of color and geometric precision, reflecting her modernist roots while allowing for personal artistic expression.

Stephen Heller (35:25): "Elaine's paintings are structured with sharp edges and distinct boundaries between the shapes reflecting her background in graphics."

8. Addressing Gender Equality in Design

Though Elaine did not explicitly identify as a feminist, her success in a male-dominated field and her efforts to highlight women's contributions in design history embody the essence of gender equality. She emphasized the importance of recognizing women's roles in design, helping to reshape the narrative to include more diverse voices.

Stephen Heller (10:25): "She tolerated being a woman designer more than she identified with being a feminist, but she was opinionated and staunch liberal."

9. Legacy and Recognition

Elaine Lustig Cohen's work gained significant recognition in the 1990s, with institutions like the Museum of Modern Art (MoMA) and the Cooper Hewitt National Design Museum including her pieces in their permanent collections. In 1995, an exhibition curated by Ellen Lupton showcased 80 examples of her work, highlighting her role in integrating European avant-garde aesthetics into American design. Elaine was awarded the AIGA Medal in 2015, honoring her profound impact on the design world.

Stephen Heller (41:11): "Her influence cannot be overstated. She has a legacy that's a powerful reminder of how design can be timeless and cross mediums too."

10. Personal Reflections and Final Thoughts

Throughout the episode, Stephen Heller and Elaine Lustig Cohen share personal anecdotes and reflections on Elaine's generous nature and collaborative spirit. Elaine's willingness to mentor and support other designers, especially women, underscores her enduring legacy in the design community.

Elaine Lustig Cohen (43:02): "She was extremely generous with the materials she acquired and accumulated for Ex Libris... She would send fan letters to designers she admired."

Conclusion

The episode concludes with a heartfelt tribute to Elaine Lustig Cohen's contributions to both graphic design and fine art. Amber Asay reiterates the importance of celebrating women in design history, ensuring their stories and achievements are recognized and remembered.

Amber Ac (45:45): "Let's redesign history by celebrating women."

Elaine Lustig Cohen's story is a powerful testament to overcoming barriers, pioneering innovative design, and fostering a more inclusive narrative in the world of design. Her legacy continues to inspire new generations of designers, reaffirming the vital role women have played and continue to play in shaping the visual landscape.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Amber Ac (00:10): Introduction to Elaine as a testament to resilience and creativity.
• Stephen Heller (02:55): Acknowledges his debt to Elaine for his design education.
• Elaine Lustig Cohen (03:58): Emphasizes gender equality in her experience.
• Elaine Lustig Cohen (23:18): Discusses being initially sidelined in her husband's design studio.
• Stephen Heller (02:00): Highlights Elaine's rise to an acclaimed designer.
• Elaine Lustig Cohen (34:03): Clarifies her design philosophy prioritizing functionality over decoration.
• Stephen Heller (35:25): Describes Elaine's structured approach in her fine art.
• Stephen Heller (10:25): Comments on Elaine's stance on gender and feminism.
• Stephen Heller (41:11): Summarizes Elaine's profound and timeless influence.
• Elaine Lustig Cohen (43:02): Reflects on Elaine's generosity and mentorship.
• Amber Ac (45:45): Concludes with the mission to celebrate women in design history.

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Final Notes:

Elaine Lustig Cohen's work is preserved in prestigious institutions such as the Museum of Modern Art (MoMA), Cooper Hewitt Smithsonian Design Museum, and LACMA. Her legacy not only bridges the gap between mid-century modernist design and fine art but also serves as an enduring inspiration for those who strive to blend multiple disciplines while maintaining artistic integrity.

For more insights and stories like Elaine’s, tune into future episodes of Women Designers You Should Know, and consider supporting the podcast through platforms like Buy Me a Coffee or Patreon to help continue celebrating and documenting the invaluable contributions of women in design.

Transcript

[Amber Ac]

Hello and welcome back to Women Designers. You should know the podcast where we remind everyone that design wasn't always just a boys club. I'm your host Amber Ac and today we're uncovering the extraordinary story of Elaine Lustig Cohen, who is both a fine artist and designer. She started out with no formal training in design in the 50s and was suddenly thrust into running one of the most influential modernist design studios of her time. Elaine, who originally studied fine art, was married to renowned designer Alvin Lustig, and after his untimely death, she found herself not only continuing his legacy, but carving out her own. She created over 150 book covers and museum catalogs, playing a crucial role in shaping American modern graphic design by integrating European avant garde aesthetics into her work. Elaine's rise from an assistant to an acclaimed designer working alongside architectural giants like Philip Johnson, makes her one of the most intriguing figures in design history. Her work, despite its roots and tragedy, is a testament to resilience, creativity and an unwavering sense of modernist purpose. To help us dive deeper into Elaine's life and work, I am beyond thrilled to be joined by design historian and writer Stephen Heller. Stephen has written over 200 books on design and pop culture and is the force behind the Daily Heller at Print magazine. He's won countless accolades including the AIG Medal and the Smithsonian National Design Award for Design Mind. Stephen is here to help us explore how Elaine Lustig Cohen not only broke into the male dominated design world, but also helped shape it and why rewriting history to include more women is important today. But before we jump into today's conversation, I want to give a quick shout out to everyone who has supported the podcast through Buy Me a Coffee. You guys are amazing. Your donations help keep this self funded show going and even just $1 a month makes a huge difference. So be sure to donate at buymeacoffee.com WomenDesigners pod and I'll link that in the show notes as well. We've also been hovering around the 11th spot on the design podcast charts, so thank you for listening and spreading the word. If you're enjoying the show, take 10 seconds right now to tap that five star rating. It really helps. And forget we have extra content on our Patreon including behind the scenes insights, additional links and resources from each episode. So with that said, let's get started.

[Stephen Heller]

Hi Steve, welcome to the podcast.

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

Hi, glad to be here.

[Stephen Heller]

I am such a big fan of yours. I owe a lot of my design education to you as I'm sure a lot of others do. As well, and I'm so excited to dive into all things Elaine Mustache Cohen today. But before we dive into her story, of course I have all sorts of questions to ask you. I love hearing your insight on topics about women designers. And you've been at the forefront of design journalism for decades. You've witnessed many shifts in the industry. Not only that, but you've authored and co authored over 200 books on design and pop culture with a wide range of subjects like typography, graphic design, history, and even the intersection of politics and design. So as one of the most prolific design writers of our time, how have you seen the conversation around gender equality and design evolve over time?

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

Well, I was pretty much brought into design by women.

[Stephen Heller]

Wow.

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

I didn't experience a great revolution. It seemed to me that even though the person who hired me for my first job was a man, there were always women working in the publications that I worked for. And some were art directors, some were senior designers. And since my mother was a working woman and I grew up around working women, there never seemed to be a gender gap. I'm making that a little too Pollyanna. There certainly was gender bias, and I was certainly part of that way of life because that's what things were like in the 60s and 70s. But to me, women are equal, if not equal.

[Stephen Heller]

That's beautiful. Honestly, I love that. And there are so many different perspectives on the topic, too. And it really does have to do with your upbringing and where you lived and where you worked and what the landscape looked like at the time, too. And so that's so interesting to say that you've always been surrounded by women designers and that that's been your story, which is so amazing. And I think it makes so much sense because you talk a lot about women in your work, and you've included them in your column, the Daily Heller, which has been running on Print magazine's website for years. And the column covers a wide array of topics, often reflecting on the history of visual culture. I would probably describe it as a must follow feed for those in the design world, but can you talk about some of the most influential women designers you've covered and why their stories resonate with you?

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

Well, before I do that, I'll say that I'm at print for 40 years, at the print online site for 15 or so.

[Stephen Heller]

Wow.

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

Asked to do it by Joyce Rutter K. Who was the editor of Print after Martin Fox. Before that, there was another woman who worked with me on one of my books, Julie Lasky.

[Stephen Heller]

Okay.

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

And when Print went digital, she Said it was Joyce who invited me to do a daily column. I guess she was trying to punish me in some way. But when Print stopped printing. Print? Debbie Millman was its editorial director.

[Stephen Heller]

Okay.

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

And she didn't want to see Print's name drift off into the miasma, so she and two other women decided they would buy it by the name. Those are our publishers, Laura Des Enfants and Deb Aldridge, who brought in Andrew Gibb.

[Stephen Heller]

Oh, yeah.

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

And if not for Debbie, I wouldn't still be doing the column.

[Stephen Heller]

Wow.

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

The other night, we had a little party for the faculty of the MFA program I co founded with Lisa Tellerico. And the president of the school gave us a little testimonial, and he said was amusing. Steve said he couldn't work on this without a partner, and he picked a woman, as usual. And when I got up to say thank you, I said, thank you for letting me pick the woman. I seem to pick women all the time. And from the back, I heard Laura Des Alphons say, because we're smarter.

[Stephen Heller]

I love that. And I wonder if it has to do with the fact that your mom was such a strong figure in your life too, would you say?

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

I wouldn't say.

[Stephen Heller]

Okay.

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

I mean, she was a strong figure, but that would have had a deleterious effect. No. I was brought up in a liberal environment where these distinctions were either suppressed or irrelevant.

[Stephen Heller]

Yeah. That's interesting.

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

So you asked me about the influential women.

[Stephen Heller]

Yes.

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

In the design world, the influential people for me are in no particular order. Paula Scherer, who is married to Seymour Quast, who is my best friend. Ruth Ansell, who was art director of the magazine. And with Pia Feidler, she was art director of Harper's Bazaar.

[Stephen Heller]

Yes.

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

She got me into the New York Times.

[Stephen Heller]

Wow.

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

Sippy Pinellas, who in her later years was teaching at Parsons. And I visited her class and then visited her home, and she was a very formidable and sweet, loving person.

[Stephen Heller]

Wow.

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

There are so many. Louise Feeley has influenced me a great deal. She influenced me not to be a designer.

[Stephen Heller]

Oh, really?

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

Well, her work was just so damn good. There was no way I could compete.

[Stephen Heller]

Wow. Well, that's a good pairing. Then she'll design, and then you can write beautifully about design.

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

I hope that's the way it works. There are probably others who I just can't remember at the moment. Gail Anderson, who is a colleague here at SVA and a dear friend.

[Stephen Heller]

Yeah, I spoke to her on the podcast on episode like four or five, and she mentioned your name, too, and she said that you were really good at pushing her for the next book or the next project. The moment you had wrap up a project, she said Steve would say, how about the next one? I have an idea for the next one.

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

Yeah, well, she did so much good work, I could afford to make those suggestions.

[Stephen Heller]

Yeah, that makes sense. That's such a good list. You've brushed shoulders with so many iconic women designers throughout history. Some still with us, some not even with us anymore. And so it's so amazing to really hear your perspective on these women, too. And I'm curious to know, why do you think it's taken so long for the design world to recognize the contributions of these women? And how can we continue to push for more inclusive recognition moving forward?

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

It's amazing to me that women got the short end of the stick because I have publications that show a huge population of women working in the field. Some directory called Brown Book, I think, and it listed by name all of these people, many of whom were women, many of whom did menial tasks or grunt work. And they did it until they got married or got some other job. There weren't that many from the early part of the century who were taken seriously.

[Stephen Heller]

Yeah.

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

And it's just continued like that for many decades. But I think Starting around the 60s, women started rising on the hierarchy. It took a long time because there's always been this dual citizenship that Orin have had in the United States. They could be here as citizens, but they couldn't vote.

[Stephen Heller]

Yeah.

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

And women were always looked upon as temporary help. When I was 13, I worked for Advertising Agency for a brief two days, and the owners of the agency were women. But I think more and more women are being recognized simply because more and more women are in a position to recognize them. And being a design chronicler, I can't not recognize the impact of women. And I'm encouraged to pursue finding more women who were undefined in terms of historical reporting.

[Stephen Heller]

Yeah, that's so great. I mean, honestly, the work that you do is so helpful for the industry and for designers like me, too, to really see all of these other women to look up to from history. And so, yeah, I mean, I'm always here for every new woman that you have more research on or find or discovered through your own network. It's always impressive. And you wrote so much great stuff about Elaine, who we'll talk about today, too. And I always appreciate the research that you do.

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

Well, you know, the program that I am co chair emeritus of, sva, MFA Design, we have very few male students oh, really? It's mostly women. You know, it used to be this idea when my mother was working in what we called the SHMATA business. Clothes for teens and preteen girls.

[Stephen Heller]

Okay.

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

It was primarily men who were the buyers.

[Stephen Heller]

Okay.

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

And she kind of broke the ceiling. And then all of a sudden, it became women. She was responsible for it, but she was certainly one of those who changed the paradigm of that profession.

[Stephen Heller]

Yeah. In fact, have you seen a shift in the ratio as you've been part of the MFA program at sva? Has it slowly become more and more women over time?

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

Yeah, except it happens so quickly. It just seems normal.

[Stephen Heller]

Yeah.

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

You could pinpoint when things happened, but it just moves quickly. It's a juggernaut. Energy. A woman I forgot to mention is Caroline Hightower, who was the director of the AIGA for many years.

[Stephen Heller]

Oh, yeah.

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

And she helped me become a member of the field by allowing me to do a couple of exhibitions and edit the journal, the AIG Journal, for 12 years. And she wasn't the first woman to be the director. So there were always women on the board of directors, and they were tough dames.

[Stephen Heller]

Yeah. That's great. I mean, it is great that AIGA has that history as well. And I guess for a while now, you've been an advocate for revisiting design history to include underrepresented voices, including women. With so many design history books focused on a handful of men, there's been a growing movement to rewrite or update these books to better include the contributions of women. How do you approach this in your own work? And why do you think it's crucial to reshape the narrative?

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

Well, I look to see how broad the story is now. If there is a man involved, I look to see if there was a woman involved. Lanoslav Sutnar, the Czech graphic designer who lived and worked in the United States. He had a woman partner, and her name was on the shingle. What she did was not the design that he's known for, but she had impact on his business. George, Lois worked for a woman. And I'm losing my powers of recollection.

[Stephen Heller]

That's okay. I lose names all the time. It's a lot of names to keep track of.

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

She ran a studio. Seymour Quast worked for that studio. George worked for it. And we were on a panel for our Director's hall of Fame one year, and he insisted that she be inducted into the hall of Fame ahead of some of the male practitioners that the rest of us were voting for. And he made a persuasive argument. Reba Socius is her name. And you don't know who Reba Socius is, but she had some big clients, she mentored some amazing talents, and she was one of those invisible people. Not for any lack of trying to be visible, but it just wasn't the thing. She preferred doing the work and getting the jobs.

[Stephen Heller]

Yeah. In fact, I see that theme quite a bit on this podcast too. And as I've been talking about more women that they don't necessarily seek the limelight and they really just like being passionate about what they do and don't mind not receiving credit. We were just talking about Lella Vignelli and she was very much that way where she. She didn't really mind that and was very humble about her work and yet had such amazing, iconic work. And it was so. It's so interesting that that's a common theme among some of these women that we talk about.

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

Yeah, well, it's kind of like keep your head down and you don't get it shot off.

[Stephen Heller]

Yeah, that too.

[Ian Burr]

Starting my studio, Nice People was a thrilling yet challenging journey. But having a mentor by my side was transformative. I received invaluable advice on how to run my business. And now that I'm seven years into my successful, award winning stud video, I'm excited to offer that same support to you. I've now hit 51 on one sessions and I'm here to help empower your creative journey. Join me for personalized mentor calls on intro, co, Amber, ac And now back to the show.

[Stephen Heller]

Well, maybe now we can switch over to Elaine Lustig Cohen. And it would be great to talk through her entire life and career and help our listeners understand her entire story. And so maybe you can go way back to her early life and walk us through her childhood.

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

Well, she was born in Jersey City, 1927. Her maiden name was Furstenberg.

[Stephen Heller]

Oh.

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

She was raised by her mother and father. I have a photograph of her as a young girl.

[Stephen Heller]

Oh, really?

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

Grandfather. And they're at the 39 World's Fair.

[Stephen Heller]

Oh.

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

In front of the Paris sphere.

[Stephen Heller]

Wow.

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

The 39 World's Fair was the fair that introduced to America modern design.

[Stephen Heller]

Yeah.

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

So it was kind of interesting to have that artifact. But she went to high school. She enrolled in Sophie Newcombe College at Tulane. She transferred out to the University of Southern California. She graduated in 1948. And it was during this time that she started to be interested in modern art and ultimately interested in the man who would become her husband, who was quite a bit older.

[Stephen Heller]

Yeah. In Fact, I've heard it said too, that around this era, women were often going to school for our education too. And that was somewhat of a focus for her early on.

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

Well, she told me that and it was true with my own mom. She went to college and she studied phys ed. Men went to college, but they studied things that they wouldn't necessarily do.

[Stephen Heller]

Yeah, it's so interesting that that was such a trend or a societal expectation of women that you go to school to become educators or teachers until you have a family or until you get married and have a husband. And Elaine's early education gave her a foundation in fine arts. But her real entry into the world of design came after marrying Alvin Lustig. He was already a very influential figure in graphic design, especially modern graphic design. And their partnership was transformative for Elaine. Suddenly she found herself surrounded by some of the most progressive thinkers of the 20th century. She was suddenly immersed in conversations with the likes of Josef Albers and Charles Eames and Philip Johnson. And she didn't just soak it in, she thrived. It's like she had this backstage pass to modernism, but instead of observing, she jumped into the ring. As Alvin's health unfortunately began to decline more and more. He had diabetes his entire life. She started to step in to assist more with his projects as his health was declining. And this was hands on learning right in the thick of the modernist movement, which was crucial. I've heard it said too, that the way that his studio was set up, it was very much this architectural studio setup where he is the architect, he is the designer, and everyone that worked for him were just assisting his ideas and his designs and weren't necessarily designing too, or designing as much as he was. So he was definitely in charge. And she wasn't designing as much when it. When he was really in good health and really in the thick of it. But then it wasn't until his health was declining that she really, out of obligation, was basically taking over his studio. And so it was in 1955, I believe, only seven or eight years into their marriage, he passed away and she took over his studio. And this was not just about carrying on his legacy, but she also found her own voice within the world of modernist design and realized that she loved it and was really good at it.

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

She was prevented from designing when they first got married, he left her out of the work equation. There's photographs of her in studios that he designed for himself. And she's an accessory, like some of the other things. She did what Ivan Chermayev called The dirty work. In fact, most of the designers, male or female, and there were no other females, did the dirty work. Well, Alvin stayed a very clean, sanitized desk and then the bullpen would put it all into mechanical form. When Alvin got sick, the studio did more of the work. But Alvin still designed in that same manner, using tissue paper and pencil. And eventually he lost his sight, which is one of the outcomes of infile diabetes. And he would explain through his mind's eye and voice what he wanted to have done on a particular design. And that's when Elaine started working. And you know, he'd say he'd want the yellow of some flower or the green of some leaf or something, and the type should go up the side or diagonal. And she said, we did it as close as we can. It wasn't always what he would have liked had he been sighted. After he got ill, it wasn't too long before he passed away. And without formal training and design at all, Elaine dove into the deep end. Alvin was known for his avant garde book covers and typographic experimentation. But his tragic life, cut short due to the complications of his disease, kind of locked him in period of time. He was in the general sense, a mid century modernist, but he had his own vocabulary and could speak his own language. Elaine, when she took over the studio, it was thought that she would just finish Alvin's projects for her. And one of her early high profile projects was creating signage for the Seagrams building in New York, which had started with Alvin. But she really had to do the finished project and it set the tone for her design ethos of combining clean modernist typography with innovative abstraction. It wasn't a small gig, it wasn't something that you gave to a neophyte. The fact that she was trusted with the visual identity of the monumental project speaks volumes about the confidence she earned from high profile clients like Philip Johnson. And this wasn't a one off success. Over her career, Elaine created 150 designs for book covers and magazine catalogs, including a lot for the Guggenheim and the Jewish Museum. And she was a student of avant garde European modernism and that influenced her own approach. The work that she did didn't just follow trends, however. They shaped the direction of modern American design. She was a woman with no formal training taking over one of the most influential studios of its time. And most likely she was grieving the loss of Alvin. It must have been a moment filled with both grief and opportunity. She wasn't just continuing Alvin's work, she was redefining what it meant to be a designer in the aftermath of losing a mentor and a partner.

[Stephen Heller]

Yeah, I can't imagine what that would have been like. And yet this was the beginning of this uphill trajectory in her career. And she got more and more projects, more and more clients, gained the trust of so many clients, and she was developing her own voice. And in the 50s, being a woman in design wasn't just rare. It was almost unthinkable to be running your own practice. And yet she didn't just do the job, she made it her own. And so beyond the Seagram Building, she worked for the Jewish museum in the 60s. That was a standout as a key example of her design genius. And she worked frequently in incorporating typography and abstraction, much like her book cover designs, where the type itself would often become the focal point of the visual composition. She took the principles of modernism, like clean lines and geometric shapes, and injected them with a distinct personal flair. But she was always humble about it. Which takes us back to that theme, that recurring theme we see again and again about these women being so humble about their work, even though it is so iconic and so groundbreaking. And she, along with all of these signage, all the signage she was doing, she was also designing a lot of book covers. I believe it was over 100.

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

She's worked on about 150, I think.

[Stephen Heller]

Oh, yeah, yeah, about 150 books. And so maybe you can walk us through. There's two notable book covers that I thought would be really fun to go over. Maybe you can walk us through these two book covers and her design approach.

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

Well, I think the initial book covers that she did were derivative of Alvin, influenced by modern art. She took over one of Alvin's biggest book clients that were Meridian Books and Noonday Books. They were published by Arthur Cohen, who later married her. But the books, I think you're talking about the Book of Jazz, where she has these shapes kind of weaving their way through one another or translucency in terms of color overlapping, it's total abstraction, but the time makes it a real graphic design. She enjoyed working in abstract form. What it was based on, I'm not sure. But there was something about being of her time that kept her going and influenced her book jackets. So the Book of Jazz is a jazzy cover.

[Stephen Heller]

I love how those J's are kind of doing a little dance and they're kind of fragmented J's. They're not all just full clear J's. You have to really stare at it to realize these are all Js. Kind of doing a dance around each other, creating new forms and almost creating like this musical rhythm or dance that. I'm assuming the jazz was part of that theme or that topic too.

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

Yeah, it was. And it was a timely cover for what was going on in the music industry. Command Records was a very influential company and they've used a lot of abstract art slash design. Columbia was starting to with Neil Fujita and Prestige Records. That was jazz label, so it was appropriate to use jazz like imagery. The other cover you wanted to talk about was politics. Who gets what, when and how. When I first looked at this cover, and it was one that I have never seen before, it made me feel like I was looking at somebody with a mustache.

[Stephen Heller]

Yeah, I see that too.

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

It's alternating exclamation point and question mark. With the name of the author stuck between the first two and the last two of those images. She uses every portion of the negative space. The who gets what, where and where how are in the full stops at the bottom of these forms. And by today's standards, it's kind of a primitive cover. But by the standards of bookmaking and cover making, then it was truly avant garde. And she also uses green, which I think is coming back with the brat.

[Stephen Heller]

Oh, yeah. I love that, you know, that you're so on top of things.

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

I only know it because one of my students brought it to my attention.

[Stephen Heller]

Yeah, a very commanding green. And it's interesting that it's not all question marks. Like, if we're talking about who, what, when, why wouldn't that all be question marks? But there's exclamation points in there. And I wonder if that has to do with this idea of it being a command or statement within politics and that this isn't always a question, but sometimes is this very direct, very political theory and statements being made within this book.

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

I think you're right. But I also think it has a visual component, the right question mark with a flourish.

[Stephen Heller]

Yeah. She could have picked any other question mark, but specifically picked this one that has very much the curly ends.

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

Curvilinear devices give it its design as opposed to informational.

[Stephen Heller]

Yeah, There's a lot of character to it while still being very minimalist. What's fascinating about Elaine is that while she was building her career as a graphic designer, she never abandoned her fine art roots. In the 60s, she began to focus more on painting and collage. And she made a conscious shift from commercial work. Her fine art, much like her graphic design, was rooted in the modernist principles, but allowed for More personal expression. It's clear that she didn't see a sharp division between the two fields. She once noted, I never thought of myself as a decorative designer. I always thought of design as having to function first and then it could be beautiful. And this statement captures the essence of her work. Functional, yes, but always with a strong sense of beauty and modernist simplicity. She was fiercely independent and that translated into her work. You could see the influence of her design sensibilities, especially in her use of geometry and abstraction. But her paintings were their own thing entirely. And I would love for you to walk us through some of her paintings, especially her Untitled series from the 70s. There's quite a few paintings from that.

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

Series of paintings you're talking about as a prime example for exploration into abstract style. Deeply rooted in modernist ideas. And Russian constructivists consist of bold, flat planes of color arranged and carefully balanced. Cheap shape. And unlike many abstract works that focus on randomness or fluidity. Buster Cohen's paintings are structured with sharp edges and distinct boundaries between the shapes reflecting her background and graphics. Design pieces End of Her Life that combine the painting and design. Typography, geometric precision lines and clean shapes. Vital Series demonstrates the same precision that made her graphic design so distinctive. Color palette. Bold yet harmonious. Pressing hues that give paint a vibrant energy. Her color echoes the modernist idea that simplicity can be powerful when executed with intention. Ceres is technically fine art. You can see how her design background influences their composition but also influences their concept. Our paintings were not advertising or selling anyone. But in a sense they were selling. They were sales pieces. They were selling a sense of time and place. Much like a well designed book cover or layout.

[Stephen Heller]

Yeah. It's interesting. When I look at these, some of them even look like architectural drawings. It looks like a floor plan or a building layout.

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

I think if she had heard your others, she would have gone to architecture school. Just as Alvin was very involved with architecture.

[Stephen Heller]

Yeah. So I really wanted to talk about her relationship with feminism. She was a woman who distanced herself from the idea of being a woman designer. She said that she didn't want her gender to define her contributions. In fact, she didn't explicitly identify as feminist, nor did she align herself with the feminist movement during her career. And yet many might view her success and refusal to be boxed in by gender roles as embodying the spirit of feminism. Even if she didn't want her work to be categorized by her gender. Elaine was a trailblazer simply by being a woman who thrived in mid 20th century design. When asked about Working with her second husband, Arthur Cohen, she humorously remarked, having a husband, being your client is pretty easy. You never show them what you're doing until late at night, they're exhausted and they say, I like it. Just by existing and succeeding in that world, she was making a statement. It's almost like the act of being excellent in a male dominated field was her way of pushing back.

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

She tolerated being a woman designer more than she identified with being a feminist, but she was opinionated and staunch liberal. Her career wasn't a one note success story either. By 1970s, graphic design had evolved and so had she when she devoted herself more to the painting. Elaine's career saw a resurgence of interest in the 1990s as younger generations rediscovered her brilliance and institutions like MoMA started to recognize her contributions to modern graphic design. She had not only contributed to the evolution of modernist graphic design, but it also helped create a visual language that was uniquely her own, One that integrated European avant garde aesthetics with an American perspective. She preferred, in the years that I knew her, to be considered an artist, big A. But she wouldn't deny or refuse the title of graphic designer. In 1995, the Cooper Hewitt National Design Museum hosted an exhibition stuttering her as a Graphic Designer. It was curated by Ellen Lupton and it featured 80 examples of her work, underscoring those contributions she made to the field and her role in integrating European avant garde aesthetics into American design. Her legacy is finally getting the recognition it deserved. I think before her death, her legacy was being appreciated. I did an interview with her for the AIGA New York. It drew a lot of people.

[Stephen Heller]

Wow.

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

And Elaine was always very candid and always able to explain her motivations and her process. She passed away in 2016, but as I said, she lived to see her crowning achievement. And she received the AIGA Medal for her achievements the year before. I think I was just amazed it took so long for them to figure that one.

[Stephen Heller]

Yeah, you're always one step ahead of the industry. Being aware of the women, knowing of them, surrounded by them, and some people just, just have to play catch up, you know. Her influence cannot be overstated. She has a legacy that's a powerful reminder of how design can be timeless and cross mediums too. She worked in multiple disciplines, not only graphic design and fine art, but even book binding. And for many young designers today, her work continues to be a source of inspiration because it really bridges the gap between mid century modernist design and the fine art world. And in that way, she's a role model for anyone who refuses to be boxed into a single identity. Not what makes her story so powerful is that she never stopped evolving. She lived in constant motion as an artist and with a designer's eye and a designer with an artist's soul. She wasn't just one thing, graphic designer, artist, or modernist. She was all of those things. And so I'd love to know, what is your biggest takeaway from her story?

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

Well, it's not my biggest takeaway.

[Stephen Heller]

Okay.

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

But it's one many.

[Stephen Heller]

Yeah.

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

She was extremely generous. She was generous with the materials she acquired and accumulated for Ex Libris, which was the antiquarian book dealership she and Arthur Cohen ran together. And she had some choice items that she was very free about loaning out to people and making available. When she saw the work of somebody she liked, particularly a female designer, she would send them a fan letter.

[Stephen Heller]

Wow, that's great.

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

She would see if she could acquire some of their work. And she did this all without self consciousness. You know, some of the most comforting moments for me was sitting on her couch in our living room. And off to one side would be a Mabrit. Off to another side would be Rodchenko. Off to another would be Kurt Schwitters. And it was just a wonderful feeling. And we did a book together on Alvin Lustig, Born the Art and Design of Alvin Lustig.

[Stephen Heller]

I'll link that in the show notes, too.

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

She was extremely generous, and she was a terrific collaborator in that she fed me lots and lots of facts and lots and lots of material.

[Stephen Heller]

Great. That's incredible. I mean, that's. And I love that you have such a firsthand experience with her, too. And I think that's why it's been so great to have you on the podcast today is to really hear your experiences with her personally, which is so unusual. A lot of the people I've talked to were just kind of talking about the history we know of or can find or have written about. But the fact that you have actually worked with Elaine and written a book with her and interviewed her and have all of these experiences with her, I bet you have endless stories to tell. And so thank you so much for joining me on the podcast.

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

I have more memories than I have stories, but they're all great memories.

[Stephen Heller]

Good. Well, I'm glad. May her legacy live on.

[Elaine Lustig Cohen]

Indeed. Thank you for having me.

[Amber Ac]

That wraps up our deep dive into Elaine Mustic Cohen's life and work and the broader conversation about gender equality. Quality in design with the incredible Stephen Heller. It's always inspiring to hear from someone who has not only witnessed but also helped document the evolution of design history over the decades. Remember, rewriting history to include more voices, especially those of women, is crucial to telling a fuller, richer story of design. As a quick fact check, we mentioned earlier that Elaine's work might be able to be found at some of the world's most prestigious museums, and it's true. Her paintings and designs are part of permanent collections at institutions like the MoMA, Cooper Hewitt, Smithsonian Design Museum, and LACMA, among others. So the next time you're at one of those museums, be sure to see if you can see her work on display. I want to thank everyone who's donated to the podcast through Buy Me a Coffee. You're your support keeps this show going, and if you haven't yet, even just $1 a month can make a huge difference. And again, we've been close to cracking the top 10 InDesign podcasts. So if you haven't already, please take a second to tap that five star rating in your podcast app. It really helps boost us up in the charts. For those who want more, don't forget to check out our Patreon for extra content. And until next time, I'm Ian Burr. Thanks for listening. And as always, let's redesign history by celebrating women.