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Women Designers You Should Know
Design Dialogues: Designing for Human Connection (w/ Ti Chang)
00:33:06
Just in time for Valentine’s Day, join us as Ti Chang, cofounder of CRAVE, shares how she’s revolutionizing the way we connect through design, pioneering the category of pleasure jewelry with elegant, empowering products that redefine intimacy and human connection.
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Transcript60 lines
- [00:00]
T. Chang
Foreign. Hello.
- [00:08]
Amber Asey
Welcome to Women Designers yous Should Know, the podcast where we even talk to today's design heroes. I'm your host, Amber Asey, and today we're diving into a powerful topic. Designing for human connection. Design at its best isn't just about aesthetics or functionality. It's about creating experiences that resonate with people on a deep, emotional level.
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Unknown
People.
- [00:32]
Amber Asey
It's about designing products, spaces, and experiences that not only solve problems, but also foster relationships, intimacy, and meaningful connections. My guest today is T. Chang, a trailblazer in designing pleasure products that are as much about human connection as they are about design innovation. As the co founder of Krave Tee has redefined the category of pleasure jewelry, blending luxury and intimacy in ways that empower individuals and strengthen their personal connections. So whether you're a product designer, an architect, or a graphic designer, today's episode will remind you that the best designs don't just serve a functional purpose. They connect people with each other. They foster deeper understanding and ultimately can change lives. Here's my conversation with T. Chang.
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T. Chang
Wait for you and me and her.
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Unknown
World Their designers, you should know when.
- [01:54]
T. Chang
It Designers, you should know know.
- [02:16]
Unknown
Welcome T. To the podcast.
- [02:18]
T. Chang
Thank you so much for having me.
- [02:20]
Unknown
I am so excited to chat with you. You are my first industrial designer on the podcast and there's so many things that we can dive into with that topic and everything. Especially since it's such a male dominated design industry. Like, you guys have it the worst. Maybe. Or maybe you and architects are right up there.
- [02:43]
T. Chang
I would agree. And among many other industries as well. Yes. This is unfortunately all too common.
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Unknown
Yeah. I want to know more about your creative beginnings. What first sparked your interest in design?
- [02:56]
T. Chang
I always had a really succinct answer for that, but essentially I didn't even know about design. I grew up in a small town in Georgia. The high school that I went to, there was no information about design whatsoever. We were not like maybe some school in California that like maybe taught design or make children aware of design. But at the time I thought I wanted to be an artist. I was very creative and the art room was my place of solace. But unfortunately my parents were immigrant family and we didn't have the money to send me out of state to art school. So fortunately for me, I got a scholarship to Georgia Tech. And when I got in, I just went through all the different degrees. And then at the end it was architecture or industrial design. And I tried architecture for like a quarter and it was just literally. Yeah, it was like drawing straight lines with like an HB pencil. And I was like, this was so boring.
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Unknown
Archaic.
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T. Chang
Yeah. And then, so then I switched to industrial design, blindly not knowing what it was. And just by luck of the draw, like, it completely just clicked with me. It was like my calling.
- [04:03]
Unknown
That is so cool. And honestly, like, I mean, nowadays it feels like a lot of women are learning more and more about all of these different design traits and disciplines and things like that. But, yeah, like, 20, 30 years ago, that was not a thing. And, like, women had to really think through what they wanted. And I had a similar journey where I was like, I don't even know what I want. I think I like graphic design, but it took me a really long time to get there. And so. So, yeah, like, I think that that's very relatable too.
- [04:34]
T. Chang
And also, to be fair, a lot of the peers of my age, industrial design, when I asked them, how did you figure out to get an industrial design and to be perfect? Like, most people have a very similar story, like me, where they were like, oh, I saw my roommate stumble in with something that she made or he made. And then, like, I was like, what is this? And then they just kind of discovered it. So I think industrial design has a marketing problem broadly in the US compared to Europe, where when you tell someone your industrial designer, they're like, oh, okay, yeah, so is it furniture? Is it, you know, what is it? Whereas here in the us I've found that when you say I'm industrial designer, they're like, oh, you design factories. Or I'm serious. And then they get our resume CV confused with industrial engineers.
- [05:22]
Unknown
Yeah, that's true. It's a marketing problem. Like, it's funny because even graphic design had to go through its own process. People were calling them graphic artists or designing graphics. I don't know. There's like, so many terms that came before graphic design, and now I feel like people are settling into that and understanding it better. But I agree. Industrial design, I bet if I told my parents about it, they'd have no idea what that was. But then you went on to study industrial design at two different universities and worked several years as an industrial designer at other agencies and working on all sorts of other client projects. Were there any specific moments during your studies that inspired your focus on this idea of human connection?
- [06:09]
T. Chang
That didn't happen for me during school. It actually happened at my first job. I was the first industrial designer hired a goody product. So it was hairbrushes. Yeah. And they are known for this. This, like, elastic band called ouchless and I designed a line of hairbrush collection called Ouchless Hairbrush Collection. But when I joined they didn't really know what I do. And after I worked on this hairbrush for over like two years and we sent it out to people for feedback and things like that. And I got this one letter from a mother I remember to this day who wrote to our sales to say, my six year old daughter always fussed every morning when I brushed her hair. And because of Ouchless, I have an easier time in the morning now. That was the moment that completely clicked for me, like, oh, this is what it's all about. And it resonated with me to my core. And I was like, okay, I want to do more of that. So that was the moment that I knew.
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Unknown
That's incredible. And it's like such a beautiful reminder that we're all connected through these objects and items in our home. And that somebody touched that or designed it or thought about it and thought about it for like a year, which is incredible. And yeah, like it just, it's so cool to think about that bond through an inanimate object.
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T. Chang
Yeah, it's the effort that goes into making something that whether someone can feel it or not, but when they experience something that a team of people, hopefully diverse team of people, or at least a team where the stakeholder for the end user is on that team so that whatever the output is, it is more well thought out for that type of user. They can really feel the love and the care that goes into something. It's to say for the same reason that when we pick up something that is cheaply made, you can feel the cheapness, you know, and when you use it, there's a disappointment, there's this like expectation that's just not met. Whereas like you have something that you just like, oh, somebody thought about this and it just makes a world of difference. And I hope to just continue to create products. And that's always been like my theme since I started working was that I just, I want to be useful, I want to contribute to products that make people feel that they're cared for and that they're seen.
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Unknown
Yes, I love that I have to go back to your university time too. So what was it like at those two different universities? What was the male to female ratio? Did you learn about other female designers in history at that time or what was that environment like?
- [08:48]
T. Chang
So two different schools, Georgia Tech and the Royal College Art in London, they were at two different points in my life. So there wasn't like back to Back. But for the most part, the male to female ratio was definitely on par. Like, that means it was like 60, 40 or 50. 50 at least. And RCA. Very similar. Very similar. But the issue is that I think why this industry lacks a lot of female industrial designers is not what happens in school, but what happens after school, like, who are actually getting the jobs.
- [09:18]
Unknown
Was anyone talking about the history of industrial design or. I imagine that that was like, maybe a class or something.
- [09:26]
T. Chang
We learned about some of the classics, like Eileen Gray, you know, and however, there have been more designers, female designers that came after her, you know. But the problem is that history is only written by kind of a few and recognized by a few. And so not many contemporary women get written into that. In fact, I actually personally updated the Wikipedia list of industrial designers to add somebody that I knew as industrial designer. And so these are the types of things that we didn't have an excellent education around. And I did not remember having a single speaker coming into school at Georgia Tech that was a woman, and that was practicing industrial design. I mean, at rca, it was different, but still predominantly men. There was, like, one female tutor, actually a couple, but, like, it was like 80% male tutors there.
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Unknown
Yeah, I imagine that you had to work your way through that industry and doing that as a career and being one of few and all of that. And then you got to this place of designing pleasure jewelry, which you've been doing through your company crave for years now. And we talk all about trailblazers on this podcast and women that are innovating in the design space. And so what's really cool about your story is you pioneered this concept of pleasure jewelry, which is pretty groundbreaking if you think about it. Like, not very many people were doing that or. Or at least coining that phrase. Is that right?
- [11:04]
T. Chang
Yeah. Like, so how it started was that I just simply want to see beautiful pleasure products for myself. That's where it started. And I connected this emotional experience of having adornments like jewelry, which was an experience that you feel, like, beautiful, you feel honored, you feel respected, you feel giddy. You know, there's a way that jewelry makes you feel. And then I was looking at vibrators and pleasure products that make people feel just awkward and ick, and you're just like, ah, this is really weird. I don't know. You know, and it was just very unimaginative. I mean, it was not like I went out intentionally to create, like, a new genre of products, because I think it's been about 17 years. And when I Look back, like, the entrepreneurial journey of creating something groundbreaking is so much harder than, let's say, if you just created something that wasn't iteratively better than something that came before. It takes time for the market to adopt. And then you also have to educate people and show people, hey, how cool it could look. What does it mean? And, yeah, it's just. It's a lot of time, I bet.
- [12:10]
Unknown
And like, well, you're wearing it right now. Is that right?
- [12:14]
T. Chang
Yes. So this is actually a ring that is going to become a necklace. So it is the ring that we have out. It's called the tease ring. And maybe by the time the POD is out, we have a new necklace that allows the ring part to become like the pendant. So this is what it looks like.
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Unknown
Goes with another element. Oh, I see. Yeah.
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T. Chang
So this is actually the ring and then this is the chain that comes with it that is attached to it.
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Unknown
So, yeah, that's exciting. Yeah. And I mean, you've probably come across all sorts of people along this journey too. And what is incredible about what you're doing is not just designing products for the human experience, but you're also helping normalize and destigmatize conversations around pleasure products because it's becoming an element that you can wear and wear proudly. And even if it's just you that knows what you're wearing, that's probably this internal hidden part of you that's coming out, and that's probably for the personal wearer is probably a moment of pride.
- [13:23]
T. Chang
Yes, yes, we hear that so much. I mean, I created pleasure jewelry not because I think the only answer to sexual empowerment is to wear a vibrator on your neck. That's not what I'm saying. Like, as a designer, I create something that hasn't existed before. And I love to create inspirational objects that I think connect with people on an emotional level. And it's going to resonate with some and not with others. And that's totally fair. You know, there's not going to be one product for all. And so in Crave's portfolio, we have the pleasure or jewelry, but we also have what we call fine bedside products, because as a brand, we've embraced metal as a material for a very long time. So with all of our bedside products, they're made from stainless steel, they're made with PVD plating, they're nickel free. And so it just has an extra element of craftsmanship and quality that you don't get when you're holding just like a classic cheap vibrator you know, and so we have really elegant products that if you just want vibrated by your bedside, like, that is just as valid. And we have beautiful ones that you don't have to think anything of. And no one would think twice about it, you know, seeing it out, you know, on your nightstand, you know.
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Unknown
Yeah.
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T. Chang
And what you said about the emotional part. Yeah. Like, there is something that when someone wears this product, it makes them feel naughty, empowered, or just a way of showing up in the world in the way that they feel good to themselves. And since our very first vibrator necklace that came out in 2014, one of the things I'm extremely proud of is that it has become, like, this iconic symbol that, you know, when people think of iconic pleasure products, people think of the Vesper vibrator necklace because it is just so iconic, you know, the size and, like, how you wear it. And it's now this object that when you go into certain spaces, whether it's queer, whether it's, like, play parties, whether it's just, like, on a date even, it's a signal of, like, sex positivity, you know, that, like, people just recognize and support. And I think it's really awesome. Like, and then another kind of an unintentional consequence, and I think maybe this happens when something works well for a lot of people, is that men have started wearing this. And at first I was kind of like, huh, okay. And this journalist I remember I was talking to, she goes, if I saw a man wearing a Vesper, I would walk straight up to him. Because that automatically tells me, one, he's comfortable with his sexuality, that he's out wearing that, and two, he cares about my pleasure. And I was like, oh, shit. Never thought of it that way.
- [15:56]
Unknown
Yeah, that's incredible. I mean, speaking of people who've worn it, the necklace has been worn by Janet Jackson, Madonna, Stormy Daniels, Cara Delevingne, and more. And so it's obviously getting picked up by people and really, like, making a difference. So I'd love to know, how does it feel knowing your designs are positively impacting others lives?
- [16:23]
T. Chang
I am just so grateful that I have the opportunity. You know, we've been doing this for, like, 15 years with Crave and my. Because I started by myself, like, bootstrapped a company two years prior to selling to Crave. So I've been doing this for 17 years. And to see the things that we slave over and work on care so much about, you know, from the initial design all the way to production, because it takes a whole team and to See it picked up by these amazing, iconic women. It's just the greatest. And you just feel, seen, you feel, because we're such a small company, sometimes people think that, oh, you've paid them, like, girl, no, we're a small company. We got that kind of money, like to pay Madonna. Are you kidding? Like, like, I just, I feel incredibly honored to be able to have a great team where we make products that promote love and not more. And I can get to, we get to do this as a job. Like, I am just eternally grateful and I want to keep doing this for as long as I can.
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Unknown
Yeah. Oh, that's so beautiful. And it's like, I imagine that that is the thing that keeps you going too, is every time you hear that it's impacted someone's life or you hear that positive feedback, it's just like the cherry on top of, you know, doing what you love to do.
- [17:44]
T. Chang
Yeah. And like a few years ago, I became very focused on like, oh, I want to do this next, I want to do this next. But then sometimes you have to kind of tune out and think about what's in front of you. I am doing something that I enjoy. Now here's the thing. Enjoy is not something that happens like a hundred percent of the time. You know, like any entrepreneur, like any job, it's still a job. And I recognize that what I do do on a day to day basis, it may not be a hundred percent, like I enjoy it every single second, but for the most part, I really like it. You know, I feel good about it. It makes other people feel good. And I feel like I'm helping to contribute to a better conversation about pleasure and sexuality. And I love the people that I'm doing it with. And I'm paid good enough. I'm not rich, I'm not buying a yacht, but I can sustain my living and that we can go on vacation, you know, so that. That's good enough.
- [18:40]
Unknown
Yeah. And thinking about being not only an industrial designer, but you're also an entrepreneur doing all of this too. As a woman leading a company in a male dominated space, what were some of the challenges you faced when building Crave? It sounds like you started it first and then you sold it and now co own it with someone else. Is that right?
- [19:03]
T. Chang
Correct. Yeah. So I'm co founder. So I bootstrapped this company and I started doing pleasure jewelry that I recognized very quick, a year and a half into it that like, you know, I have certain skill sets that are exceptional, but there are some where I'm exceptionally bad at, like, spreadsheets and certain business things.
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Unknown
And so luckily, every designer, Right?
- [19:22]
T. Chang
Yeah. And it's just, you know, being very honest with yourself, because one of the things I remember someone said to me is, like, you can go fast by yourself or you can go far with more people. And so at that time, I was like, you know, I could really use some help. I then sold my company to Crave because I met my now co founder who has very, very different skill set than I do, and together we were able to build Crave to where it is now. I mean, it's been 15 years, and one, it's difficult creating a product to get traction. Okay. Two, it's even more difficult to create something that hasn't been done before because then you're kind of having to educate people about it, which makes it even more difficult. And then the third thing is something that I did not recognize and realize until I was, like, fully into my journey, is that what we do for pleasure, even though, you know, our products are extremely elevated, discreet, all those great things. The public forums, which is now social media, and these tech companies, they view this as some type of vice, but it's not just this. But they also view practitioners who work on, like, pelvic floor or, like, women's issues, menopausal things they take great lengths to censor, to basically almost, like, push down this information. You can imagine, like, it's hard enough building a product people love, and now that you know people love it, but yet you can't tell the world about it because they don't allow you to advertise and. Or they have very unevenly regulated policies that they choose to enforce or not enforce at their whim.
- [21:02]
Unknown
I mean, that's what makes you a trailblazer, too. You're, like, pushing against those roadblocks and trying to change the way that people view sexuality and being able to market it and all of that.
- [21:15]
T. Chang
I've been told from every place I've ever worked at that I am way too emotional. I am way too attached to my work, which I honestly, I think now I look back, I'll be like, fudge you. Like, this is what it takes for a good work. Work. You cannot make great work if you don't give a shit or you don't care about it deeply. And I hope that designers, as they're coming up, that they will start to center not only other people's emotions and feelings and experiences that they want to create, but also center what's in their soul. Like, what is it that you as an individual, as a creative, want to see in this world. Because I recently read the Creative act by Rick Rubin. Okay. And it is such a beautiful book and it's a great listen. I've heard it like probably four times on Audible. And my takeaway from that book is that art and design doesn't necessarily have to have this clear demarcation because with artistic work, it is coming from a place of emotion. And as a creative, in the beginning, you have to start with what resonates with you emotionally and then you put it out into the world. It's a highly likelihood that what you just made will resonate with more people if it comes from something real, you know, And I think this is also where the emotion and then the functionality have to make a bit of a refinement. Okay. Because we want this to work for a lot of people. And so user feedback is at the foundation of how we create products as well. It's not just like, oh, t feels this way and therefore we're just going to make this blindly. Like, no, that's not how industrial design works and that's not not how you're going to get to a product that works for a lot of people. Throughout our product development process internally, there are multiple checkpoints where we send products out to people, get honest feedback, and we iterate and we iterate again. So that is how you take something that may be inspired by emotion and then you put it through the rigor of industrial design, which has. That's anchored in user research and refinement to create something that works for more people.
- [23:26]
Unknown
I'm curious about that process too. How much time does it take to design a product with all the back and forth with feedback and all of that?
- [23:37]
T. Chang
So it varies for different products. Like this one I'm holding up. I mean, it looks like a mascara. It's a metal vibe, stainless steel, USB, rechargeable, fully waterproof, versus this ring. Okay. This ring took us almost 10 years.
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Unknown
Wow.
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T. Chang
That is because part of what we do is it's not just about pretty objects. We have some world class engineers and when you're doing something like microelectronics that are on this scale, you almost have to wait until the technology gets small enough. These electronics, these components are so small you can't see it with the human eye. They're on the scale of like AirPods and things like that. And so, so yeah, it varies. It varies from as short as six months to 10 years. Wow.
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Unknown
And like, do you have an exact process with like feedback and trials and things like that. Or how does all of that work with your product design?
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T. Chang
Yeah, like, every single product, before it becomes designed for manufacturing, it is sent out for user feedback multiple times. So that way we get a better sense if this idea sucks and we should just kill it very early on or like, okay, there's something here, but needs to be refined. And then we do this multiple times until we get to the right place. And I think for something that is much more, I think, avant garde and new, like, for example, having a vibrator ring. So this is like a statement ring that you can wear on your finger as a. Like a bold statement piece. Or you can also use it as a finger vibe. Just like a very elegant finger vibe that is not gaudy, that, like, for very slim. That can use for men and women and partners and people. You know, these things take a lot more time because of the human factors of, like, the material, like the ring band sizes, you know, is. Why does it. Silicone versus all metal. Like, there are all these little details about how something is used that when it's very new to the world, like a vibrator ring, that just takes more time. So. Yeah, that's why it took 10 years.
- [25:43]
Unknown
Yeah. Wow. And your products are so, so discreet. And one of the, like, funny things that come to mind too, is I think it's Sex and the City. Isn't there a scene where she drops her bag and a vibrator falls out and, like, people gasp because it's so obviously a vibrator. I think it's, like, pink and probably very phallic looking. And then now, like, what you've created is basically, it could be anything. And it looks like makeup, it looks like jewelry. And it's so small that you really can just carry it everywhere.
- [26:20]
T. Chang
Yeah. Like, I think a big part of why they are the way they are is that as a woman, I'm also very petite. I'm five foot nothing, and I don't like heavy, bulky objects, you know, but then also I want something that just fits in my life. When it comes to pleasure, people are so used to the experience of buying something awkward and embarrassing, and they meet immediately when they bring it home. They trash the packaging, and then they, like, have to find a place that they have to hide it, because God forbid anybody finds it. Right. And that kind of hide and seek is just indicative of something that is like, oh, like, you should feel shame around it. And for me to take the shame out of pleasure, it has to fit effortlessly into your Life, in fact, it could even be something you wear boldly and proudly and it changes how you feel about it, you know? Yeah. That to me it just made sense. I don't want a big bulky object. I want something that is beautiful, quiet, easy to clean, it's discreet. Like, it just seems so simple. But when you have an industry full of men creating products, oftentimes these details that are so evident to us as women just goes over their heads and, and pleasure, like death, like taxes, you know, like money, These are things that touch all of us. And there's something universal. Yeah. So universal that there's just something in the way that I'm wired that I just want to tackle these problems because pleasure is incredibly meaningful to our humanity. And it's personal care. It's personal care. Yeah. It's self love and it's, it's taking care of yourself.
- [28:07]
Unknown
Yeah. So thinking about this 15 year span or 17 year span with designing these products, I imagine you saw a huge shift in the openness of talking about sexuality and these, this idea of sex positivity and everything. What has that done for your products and your company too. What did that shift look like?
- [28:34]
T. Chang
This shift has been very slowly, slowly happening and I think it has been expedited by social media because information and education around not just pleasure, but sexuality and all these things, like, was not that accessible to a lot of folks. And once social media came out, I would say Instagram in early years, I would say in the last seven years or so, there's just this, this incredible wealth of information that people have put, including crave. That's one of the things that we put out there as resources. We speak to a lot of psychologists, we do our own research and like we put out things that help people to find the words and the vocabulary to speak about what it is that they desire and what they want and how they want to feel, you know, and so social media really helped that a lot. And then with the Internet, there was like a huge change in the industry where these seedy bookshops that were kind of dodgy, they're selling like DVDs and stuff. So DVDs kind of went out of business, you know, and so that no longer, because of, you know, online videos, like that's no longer a thing. And so a lot of these retail stores are having to evolve and what they're seeing is that more women are looking for products and the way that the products were designed in the past just doesn't resonate and doesn't attract female buyers. And so luckily, things are evolving where now you have brands that are making vibrators that are much more palatable, shapes that are not as anatomically replicated, and all of that, that is helping to move that forward. And I think the biggest marker is when we start to see mainstream retailers like Goop. Yeah, they carried our product since 2016. We have been in Ulta Beauty for the last couple of years, and we're actually about to do a pop up shop with them this weekend for Valentine's. Yeah. In their Santa Monica store. And so having these types of mainstream retailers carry pleasure products in a place that's much more accessible is really helping to move things forward. And that requires, like, both investment on their part, but also having beautiful, well designed, great products to meet that demand. And in those right places.
- [30:58]
Unknown
Yeah. What does the future of Crave look like for you?
- [31:03]
T. Chang
I mean, definitely pleasure jewelry. I think there's so much more I want to do there. We're just starting. I think it's taken over 10 years just for people to kind of accept and embrace the idea of a vibrator necklace and wearable pleasure. So we definitely have a lot more happening there. But also we also have really exciting bedside products that we're working on. So. Great. We're just gonna keep trucking along for as long as we can.
- [31:30]
Unknown
You know, like, I'm so excited to follow your journey and everything because you're doing incredible things and I think what you're doing is so incredible and I am just so in awe of everything you're doing. Thank you so much for joining me today and sharing your journey. And I am like, hope for the best with Crave and everything you're doing.
- [31:52]
T. Chang
Thank you so much, Amber. I mean, it was so fun to talk to you and thank you so much for having me.
- [31:59]
Amber Asey
That's it for today's episode of Women Designers. You should know on designing for human connection, it's clear that design isn't just about creating things. It's about creating meaningful experiences that bring us closer to one another. Whether it's through a piece of jewelry, a space, or a website. Good design always has the power to connect people, evoke emotion, and enhance the human experience. A big, big thank you to T. Chang for sharing her incredible journey and insights with us. To learn more about T's work and Crave, check out the links in the show notes and if you enjoyed today's episode, be sure to subscribe, leave a five star star review and share it with someone who might find it inspiring. And as always, feel free to connect with me on social media, WomenDesigners, POD or Amber AC. Let me know your thoughts on designing for human connection. Until next time, keep designing with heart. Keep creating meaningful connections. And as always, let's redesign history by celebrating women.